HIT TOONS: art vs craft vs graft (long)
David Kilpatrick
pretty clear distinction between what is regarded as good or worthwhile - to
aspire to - and what is required commercially.
In writing, I don't for example have any contact with our local 'writers'
group' or our 'Writer in Residence'. I've had a dozen books published and
written millions of words in newspapers, and own three magazines, but that
does not in their eyes make me a 'writer'. When I was teenager I had poetry
published in national magazines but quickly found that they don't pay,
however nice it feels. The best paid writing work I have ever done was
around 1980 for Marshall Cavendish, partwork publishers. Nothing could be
further removed: a space marked on a designer's layout with an exact count
of the number of letters per line to be written, and the subject. It did not
matter whether the subject could be covered in half the number of words, or
needed twice the number - the task was to write text with specific Gunning's
Fog Index rating (no words longer than three syllables apart from technical
terms... no sentence longer than ten words, and so on) to fill the space.
This is why partworks and many popular design-led magazines are so
unsatisfactory!
In photography exactly the same thing applies: I've earned literally
millions over the years from photography, but never made a single exhibition
print since I was a camera club member aged 19. My best paid pictures have
been either taken to fit an advertising brief, or shot with a view to sale
through an agency and to fit the genre of image which sells best.
If you view the music charts as a kind of template with equally tight spaces
needing so many hip-hop, so many indie, so many rap, so many country and
other genres of 'toon' every year - the progress of which is as easily
predicted as the sale pattern of a partwork - then what Dec views as
songwriting is more or less like this type of work. You either work to
order, as an established professional, to create material to fit the
template or you work on spec with the benefit of understanding the spec.
Now in photography we have been lucky; the shift to digital means that
working with wet chemicals and photosensitive emulsions has become an art
form instead of a daily task. As a result we have 'fine art photography',
and the fact that the picture would not be saleable to a newspaper or a
popular magazine is irrelevant - it's intended for the wall, like a
painting.
In writing there has been a distinction for centuries. You get hacks and
journalists like me, and you get writers up in garrets aspiring to great
works. People who turn out short stories or poems and normally identifying
with the writer in the garret, and just a few make the transition to being
good pot-boiler writers able to churn out a pulp novel every week or a poem
a day for a newspaper. Most people with that kind of verbal facility ending
up posting long stuff on internet newsgroups instead :-)
BUT in songwriting there seems to be one aspiration only. If you write
songs, you must be aiming for the 'chart'; so 'real' songwriting must be
restricted to what fits into that narrow range of templates.
While I'm firmly into being a well-paid hack in the world of words and
pictures, I happen to be an amateur in the world of music and I'm not in the
slightest bit ashamed of it. I am not the equivalent of the 'fine art
photographer' - I would have to be a classical musician, I think, to equal
that. I am more like the (almost 100 per cent female, for some reason)
members of the local writers' group.
When I read most of their output I cringe - I could never even bring myself
to go to a meeting, as my editor's pen would be straining at the leash. I
assume that when real workaday professional musicians or songsmiths
encounter my musical output, they feel much the same! I would hestitate to
embarrass any wage-earning professional by even suggesting a listen to my
material.
In RMMS, there's a really enormous range of aspirations and intent behind
the songwriting - as far apart in objectives, motivation and skills as the
extremes between professional and hobby writing, photography (or painting,
or dance).
What I can say from experience in photography (less applicable for writing)
is that massive paradigm shifts occur, and they do NOT always come from the
working community. They can come from total outsiders most of the time and
sometimes they are actually the result of flawed technique, restricted
budgets or limitations of processes (like garage band music). You can get a
not-so-young eccentric like Alva Bernadine working on odd domestic fetish
images for years, eventually persuading someone like me to print them,
ending up with best-selling calendars, magazine covers, and sueing an ad
agency for ripping off his ideas. I see more instances of photographers
suddenly becoming successful in their later years, than of promising young
photographers. And the same in writing, especially novels.
The young professionals are working as I did 25 years ago - for the
newspapers, in ad agencies, in large studios, for glossy publishers.
The question is: does it happen in music? Can someone coming totally
sideways at the mainstream, doing their own limited but different thing,
break the stereotyped trends? That would seem to be the hope of many
RMMSers; to do their own thing, and perhaps one day do it well enough to be
noticed. The young professionals are already there; they're working, mainly
as hacks in the musical sense, and those with the time to have a few
original but correctly templated ideas find a worthwhile partner in people
like Dec.
Post-modernism means the coexistence of fine art with consumer products, of
handcrafted objects with mass produced, of retro and repro with 21st century
originals. In the overall music scene this is certainly happening. Part of
this should be, and will be, the individual making of tunes and songs in a
strictly local or personal way. I see this as no less valuable and
worthwhile than manufacturing material for the charts.
And I enjoy doing it and so do others with the same standpoint. I think...
David
James Lambert
artist, artist manager, publicist, producer and retired president of MCA
records all from Nashville. We had the opportunity to play a song for them
to critique. There were a couple of songs that they said, "Well done song,
but too generic, I knew what was going to happen. We're looking for
something unique.". And yet from listening to the radio they seem to be
hashing out the same songs, granted things have changed since traditional
country but they seem to be in the mentioned template. The country share
of purchased music has gone down from 18% to around 10%, they say there will
be a resurgance of the traditional country song. Very interesting.
I must say that I got to play a song from my cd (Lazy on a Summer Day)
and got to watch the crowd's reaction while it was playing. There were
some straining to hear the lyrics, and the intro seemed to go on forever.
Nerve wrecking and fun. Clever and whimsical was the verdict, I was happy
with that.
I'm starting to ramble.
James
--
For your listening pleasure
http://www.mp3.com/jameslambert
"I'm Bored, I'm the Chairman of the Bored." Iggy Pop
PegBertsch
>but too generic, I knew what was going to happen. We're looking for
>something unique.". And yet from listening to the radio they seem to be
>hashing out the same songs, granted things have changed since traditional
>country but they seem to be in the mentioned template.
This is why, when industry types from Nashville go to listen to songs from less
established up-and-coming writers, they ARE looking for something different and
unique.
Because there are plenty of the "same old, same old" songs to go around back in
Nashville, from writers whose track record of hits is a lot stronger. So all
else being equal, those are the writers (and songs) that get the cuts.
Which is one reason I believe that you need to make sure you are not overly
influenced by the radio. Most songwriters grow up (to some extent) listening
to commercial radio, they are formed in many ways by the "popular" songs they
listen to, and that's a very vital influence...but there comes a time when you
really have to focus more on figuring out what's unique about *you* as a
writer. Develop that, too. Because in the end, that uniqueness can go a long
way towards helping you stand out (in a good way) from the rest of the crowd.
Just so you know, though, those "bolt of lightning" success stories from these
types of seminars do happen. Tom Douglas comes immediately to mind. He (and
his song "Little Rock," which went on to become a major hit for Collin Raye)
was "discovered" at such an event.
But you have to admit, there is something that is a cut above about that song.
I like to think it's because Tom was simply writing what felt real, and what
was uniquely *him*, and that's why it stood out from all the other good (but
more predictable) songs that were probably listened to at the same event.
"Little Rock" was not really in the mold of the songs that were having success
on country radio at that time (or since). It was just too good to pass by.
Glen Nordell
Just between you, me and the lamppost, David, people tend to extend much
latitude and forebearance to anything that the rich and successful have to say.
But, then again, many of us do not.
I am smack dab in that latter category.
Basil Fawlty to his wife, Sybil: "Fawning over him? Well, who should I fawn
over? Our usual stable of drooling livestock?"
You no doubt have a wealth of experience and knowledge that everyone in their
right mind would want to tap into. So much so that you can one-off a (to you)
simple post which literally soars right over my head.
And I thought--until now--that I was a crusty old pro.
Would you take it the wrong way if I were to suggest to you that probably
some--I said probably--others were overwhelmed by your 'dissertation (it sounds
clipped/edited from some corporate-side analysis)', as well?
Talk to me, babe.
Not at me.
By the way, congratulations on your success. I must admit to marginally
admiring successful people, which is why I thought I should write this. No one
we admire should talk down to us.
You did so.
Manuel to Basil: "...Que?"
Glen (Mr. Sweetness And Light).
Irene Jackson
news:B62EE9B7.2357%da...@maxwellplace.demon.co.uk...
> The question is: does it happen in music? Can someone coming totally
> sideways at the mainstream, doing their own limited but different thing,
> break the stereotyped trends? That would seem to be the hope of many
> RMMSers; to do their own thing, and perhaps one day do it well enough to
be
> noticed.
Of course many of us hope for that, but there are still a few in this NG who
have no other intention but to write songs, period, with little thought of
being "noticed". I'd say that the majority of us here have some kind of
hope of getting our songs outside of the confines of our bedrooms though :-)
>The young professionals are already there; they're working, mainly
> as hacks in the musical sense, and those with the time to have a few
> original but correctly templated ideas find a worthwhile partner in people
> like Dec.
There's room for everybody! The only time it bothers me personally is when
one "side" dismisses the other for whatever reason...I have no patience for
that. But I imagine that ego will always play a part in the process, and it
is when we get insecure and defensive that things get ugly, as proven by a
few threads in here in the last few months :-)
I have written music for money, and for the love of it, and sometimes both
at the same time...and therefore I can see each side of the creative vs.
commerce issue. My husband writes television commercials...I've seen him go
through the agony of having to do something he thinks is AWFUL because the
client wants it, and the thrill of having done something he's really proud
of. But he writes television commercials, so according to some he's a
hack.
I think it's funny how some always want to make everything so darn black and
white!! Purists, we call them...idealists maybe. But the reality is that
there's a heck of a lot of gray in the world.
--
Irene Jackson
http://www.irenejackson.com
New CD!
http://www.irenejackson.com/newcd.html
Tips!
http://www.irenejackson.com/tips.html
James Lambert
less
> established up-and-coming writers, they ARE looking for something
different and
> unique.
Good Point. I suppose there is no paradox to it after all. Maybe you
know some of the presenters: Mila Mason artist, Mike Porter Publisher, Mike
Clute Producer, Jackson Brumley Manager, and Jim Fogelsong ex president of
MCA. They were very honest in their assessment but at the same time
encouraging. A lot of fun.
James B. Mitchell
"David Kilpatrick" <da...@maxwellplace.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:B62EE9B7.2357%da...@maxwellplace.demon.co.uk...
> pretty clear distinction between what is regarded as good or worthwhile -
to
> aspire to - and what is required commercially.
>
Thanks for a well-written thoughtful post, David. It's good to hear from
people who have one foot in each camp, so to speak, at least in some area of
their lives. It's a pleasure to have the whole topic presented clearly and
dispassionately so that real discussion can take place. Looking forward to
this thread!
-- James
RICHHONCHO
It IS nice to see some sensible posts <red face> and David & you have made some
very good points, none of which I would argue with. A couple of minor
confirmations within :-
>"David Kilpatrick" <da...@maxwellplace.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:B62EE9B7.2357%da...@maxwellplace.demon.co.uk...
>> The question is: does it happen in music? Can someone coming totally
>> sideways at the mainstream, doing their own limited but different thing,
>> break the stereotyped trends? That would seem to be the hope of many
>> RMMSers; to do their own thing, and perhaps one day do it well enough to
>be
>> noticed.
>
It seems that even "stereotyped trends" have been set up and knocked down
continually. New influences infused with obscure influences have always
dominated music : both chart and "bedroom" music. That's why rule No. 1 is
there are no rules.
One of the most gratifying parts of my music collection is where I have gone
back and listened to my "heroes' heroes music." There's a whole tranch of
non-chart music and yes, all my first influences were chart-orientated (I mean,
where else did a 12 year old start?). But this means David's "templates" do get
changed, rearranged, come & go out of fashion etc.
>Of course many of us hope for that, but there are still a few in this NG who
>have no other intention but to write songs, period, with little thought of
>being "noticed". I'd say that the majority of us here have some kind of
>hope of getting our songs outside of the confines of our bedrooms though :-)
Well said, I will merely add "good luck" to whosoever and whatever it may be.
>>The young professionals are already there; they're working, mainly
>> as hacks in the musical sense, and those with the time to have a few
>> original but correctly templated ideas find a worthwhile partner in people
>> like Dec.
>
And some of them aren't hacks, either, those with real talent go on and
make-earth shattering changes (name you own artists here).
>There's room for everybody! The only time it bothers me personally is when
>one "side" dismisses the other for whatever reason...I have no patience for
>that. But I imagine that ego will always play a part in the process, and it
>is when we get insecure and defensive that things get ugly, as proven by a
>few threads in here in the last few months :-)
I think you mean me <more red face>, but I was merely trying to do a balancing
act.
People should write with the aims and motives that suit them. Not what I or
anybody else says. If you think "commerce" for you - go for it, if you think
"art" is your field go for it. And if you can combine both, well done, it has
been done and it can be done again.
>I have written music for money, and for the love of it, and sometimes both
>at the same time...and therefore I can see each side of the creative vs.
>commerce issue. My husband writes television commercials...I've seen him go
>through the agony of having to do something he thinks is AWFUL because the
>client wants it, and the thrill of having done something he's really proud
>of. But he writes television commercials, so according to some he's a
>hack.
If you think you should compare, say, Fellini, with an t.v. ad writer, there
probably is no contest, but allowing for t.v. ads having a number of
restrictions, and within that framework, there is some great "art" in t.v. ads.
It's really a matter of the correct perspective.
Music is no different. If I said one genre was better than another I'd hear
"boo", "hiss" and quite rightly so. Come on, folks, let's try and judge like
with like. A discussion on Bach/Beethoven may have some merit, but
Mozart/Britney Spears has no merit at all. Different aspirations, different
times, different mediums.
>I think it's funny how some always want to make everything so darn black and
>white!! Purists, we call them...idealists maybe. But the reality is that
>there's a heck of a lot of gray in the world.
Purists? I know nothing about them :) I try to be true to me, no more no less.
Oh, for the hell of it, "gray" you say, Irene, it would be "gray" if we let the
purists take over :-)
Long live ALL music, but forgive me if I only listen to what I like, please.
But you must slap my wrists HARD if I ever run any music down on the grounds
that I don't like it.
Richard
Andrew Riggs
don't like is right, not to mention a good attitude to take if getting
along with others is a priority, but only up to a point.
Take for example TV or movies as a subject we can distance ourselves,
a bit more from than music. There is lots of trash TV and bad movies
that generally everybody can agree are just absolutely awful. You have
to consider the motives of those who produce it. I think the same goes
for music, some of it is just plain bad.
Andrew Riggs http://andrew-riggs.tripod.com
http://www.mp3.com/axiology
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Rob Sturgess
spaces
>needing so many hip-hop, so many indie, so many rap, so many country and
>other genres of 'toon' every year - the progress of which is as easily
>predicted as the sale pattern of a partwork - then what Dec views as
>songwriting is more or less like this type of work. You either work to
>order, as an established professional, to create material to fit the
>template or you work on spec with the benefit of understanding the spec.
>
Do you really believe this is the case ? Is that what the record buying
public really want ? I'm not going to engage in record company conspiracy
theories, because I am in the middle of observing a BIG marketing campaign -
they work damn hard, and they're shit scarred of records failing to sell.
This makes them very cautious. Not a bad thing. However, I think what I've
seen on the mp3.com charts is equally interesting: a whole range of genres
from different traditions can be in the top 40. Now I know that mp3.com is
not like the real record market, distorted as it is by free products, but
still, it makes you wonder.
> People who turn out short stories or poems and normally identifying
>with the writer in the garret, and just a few make the transition to being
>good pot-boiler writers able to churn out a pulp novel every week or a poem
>a day for a newspaper. Most people with that kind of verbal facility ending
>up posting long stuff on internet newsgroups instead :-)
and very few hacks make great art (charles dickens excepted)
>BUT in songwriting there seems to be one aspiration only. If you write
>songs, you must be aiming for the 'chart'; so 'real' songwriting must be
>restricted to what fits into that narrow range of templates.
not so - I know a phenomenal guitarist/songwriter , around here he's a
legend. I've had lessons from him. When I first saw him play I was literally
transfixed, rooted to the spot, mouth open. He has actively chosen NOT to
get involved with the mainstream chart scene. He simply loves music, and
it's enough for him to make a living from it so he can do it all the time.
> I am not the equivalent of the 'fine art
>photographer' - I would have to be a classical musician, I think, to equal
>that.
isn't that just a tad biased ? Sure, not many charting albums can be called
great art, but I believe that some of them can:
pink floyd's dark side of the moon
U2's joshua tree
simple mind's street fighting years
radiohead's OK computer
(there are others)
what made these great albums (in my not so humble opinion!) is that they all
had something to say - dark side of the moon was a picture in music of state
of England at the time of writing, the joshua tree was an album about how
people interact spritually with life and each other, street fighting years
was about human rights, and OK computer was condemning greed. You don't have
to agree with my interpretations, but I think the main point holds true :
these albums all had something important to say. And they said it extremely
well. I guess the point is these were albums and not just songs.
>The question is: does it happen in music? Can someone coming totally
>sideways at the mainstream, doing their own limited but different thing,
>break the stereotyped trends?
of course - see above; the hacks will follow suit.
I try and write stuff people like - full stop. If they like it, they'll buy
it. There are lots of ways to approach it. If you take the garret, you'll
probably never figure out what people like, because you'll never listen to
anybody else's opinion (that's why you're in a garret). If you get involved
in groups like RMMS you should progress because you have the opportunity to
learn what other people like or don't. This is all really obvious stuff and
I'm sure you know it. It's OK to be amateur, and I have heaps of respect for
Dec, but Dec's approach will never produce great art, whilst amateurism will
never produce hit songs.
I for one would like to have written an album that gets listened to time and
time again - like the ones above that I've mentioned already. But that
requires you to have strong convictions about something (great art is often
political), and who has the courage to have those ?
Rob.
richh...@my-deja.com
Some nice points there.
Yes, of course, there's a lot of trash out there, sometimes for the
right reasons, sometimes for the wrong reasons and sometimes because
nobody could tell the difference!
In an artistic context, I don't think my (or your) opinion, "that was a
load of rubbish" is any more valid that the person who shelled out hard
currency to purchase/see film/music etc. Also, it just seems an
argument that "a" is better than "b" is totally futile, especially when
it's not a "level-playing field" Oops, sorry for the cliche ;(
Bet we agree more then when we dispense with the semantics :)
Richard
In article <8ucmgu$g8b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Irene Jackson
"RICHHONCHO" <richh...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001108165838...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
> Long live ALL music, but forgive me if I only listen to what I like,
please.
> But you must slap my wrists HARD if I ever run any music down on the
grounds
> that I don't like it.
Hiya Richard,
It wasn't your wrist I was slapping :-)
Irene
song...@my-deja.com
some media (TV and movies, for instance, have much better-written and
acted product than in the "golden age") and worse in others (of which
the music industry seems to be the primary -- or should that be
"nadir?"). The songwriter trying to craft something to fit the country
single or rock single "nitch" is going against a few restrictive
pressures that are different from what used to work. Country music in
particular is losing audience share, so the turtle-like reaction is to
keep your head in close, find something different yet the same, and
hope it blows over. The tried-and-true is getting falser by the day,
and no one wants to lose his job (and yes, they do!) over a songwriter
without a track record.
Of course, the "write only for myself" writers are all saying "I told
you so!" to the "I want to write for [insert artist's name here]"
crowd, but in truth, we all want an audience. And unlike print writers,
many of us "read" our own works as "singer/songwriters," a half-breed
not normally found in the prose writer ranks. So generalizations,
including the ones I've just made, are specious and suspect. In some
ways, saying "It goes with the territory" covers it.
Not that this helps anything or anyone, of course. Saying "Looks like
rain" doesn't help if you don't have your umbrella. And noticing
similarities and differences between various media where writers can
find outlets is either food for thought or idle banter.
I guess it's up to the reader, isn't it?
Songuitar
--
Why are you reading this? The message is over.
Bob in Scotland
Irene Jackson <i...@irenejackson.com> wrote
>
> .......there are still a few in this NG who
> have no other intention but to write songs, period, with little thought of
> being "noticed". I'd say that the majority of us here have some kind of
> hope of getting our songs outside of the confines of our bedrooms though
:-)
>
Hi
Us schizophrenics have no problem with the art vs. commerce issue. I just
do both. Don't we.
On the one hand, I sing live in local pubs and clubs doing cover versions
and getting paid. I would get thrown out if I sang 4 hours of my own stuff
instead. My own material gets introduced in small controlled amounts,
letting me test the songs on audiences that I can read from their reactions
on chart and classic songs. This way I decide which songs stand up and
which ones lacked something. I then develop the material further and bring
it back for another go a month later. It's beginning to work as a system of
checking my own progress, and sometimes people even ask who sang the great
song they just heard. (Usually I say Freddie Mercury or Frank Sinatra, but
sometimes it's one of mine)
My own songs are MY art, but they are being worked steadily towards
commercial avenues by whatever means I can adopt. On that note.......
I see a few mentions of Uncle Dec on the group now and again, and noticed
that certain people don't agree with his writings. All I can say is that
people who help in this business are the cornerstones of music itself.
Everyone needs help, even if only to gain self-confidence and go for the
target they were already aiming for. If you get that from Dec or anyone
else, then great. If you never get on in life because you spend time
knocking everyone else, then I just hope you remember that's how you spent
your time when it runs out. The meter is running.....
Anyway, great newsgroup with great people, all of them, even if there are a
few heated issues and more heated people occasionally. You don't get this
anywhere else on the net.
I seem to have even more in common with David Kilpatrick than I first
noticed, since I also make more money from photography( low-level but sold
widely) than I do from music (ditto). Since you're from Scotland, David, I
might even get to meet up with you.
Regards to all and I wish you a Happy and prosperous New Year. Cheers. Bob
in Scotland.
Richard Wilcox
Bob in Scotland wrote (snippered)
"I see a few mentions of Uncle Dec on the group now and again, and
noticed that certain people don't agree with his writings. All I can
say is that people who help in this business are the cornerstones of
music itself. Everyone needs help, even if only to gain self-confidence
and go for the target they were already aiming for. If you get that
from Dec or anyone else, then great. If you never get on in life
because you spend time knocking everyone else, then I just hope you
remember that's how you spent your time when it runs out. The meter is
running....."
I think you're talking about me, amongst others, so forgive me, but I
think a rebuttal is in order. I have only had a go at "advertisers" on
this NG - the rest I have either supported fully, or refrained from
making any post whatsover. RMMS should not and is not a cheap
advertising hoarding for the likes of Dec Cluskey. That is the only
reason he posts at RMMS - to make money out of people who know no
better. I think the posters all know better, it's just there are
lurkers who may fall for his condescending attitude. Those that have
advertised a service or product, which IMHO, is genuine and might be
of use to any songwriter I have added a link to my site (noted below).
If I made any error of judgment in what I included, please let me know
and I will remove pronto.
So why do I persist in having a go at Uncle Dec? Well, having read
three or four of his "Letters from Uncle Dec" and having read
his "biog" which he sent me there are several reasons.
He offers psychobabble about being positive. Quite frankly if anybody
has to learn to be positive, they might as spend their money elsewhere.
If are not positive there is no way you are going anywhere in the music
business. He learnt the psychobabble while "pyramid selling" and we all
know what we think of those kind of scams.
Most of the statements regarding recording etc are self-evident, and,
again, if somebody needs to pay for that information I suggest they
tilt their dreams at another windmill.
Think about some of his posts - " I am a member of a secret charity The
Water Rats and the members are ................" Big Secret eh?
Amongst his claims, he says he taught "Jimmy Paige" a chord, signed up
by the man who turned down the Beatles (Dick Rowe), threw John Paul
Jones out of the studio for being an unsuitable bass player, got Tom
Jones his deal - the list is endless.
Most of his claims are based on fact, but distorted in such a way to
glorify Dec, for instance he claims to have headlined at Millwall
football club ("I love doing stadiums"). The truth - he did not
headline - the headliner was Joan Regan, The Batchelors were about
4th/5th down the bill and, more importantly, it was a "pensioners'
concert" subsidised by the local council with tickets at £1.00 each
with free park and ride. (£1 equals about $1.40). He invited RMMS to
the concert too, bless him, but he gave the wrong date!
That's enough of the historical inaccuracies, what about the present
time. He claims to be involved with music today. Where? Who? When? I
have asked him at RMMS, come on tell us, Dec, and he says he can't say,
it wouldn't be cool etc etc. Well a man who names members of The Water
Rats (a secret charity) won't say what he's involved in now? Think
about it.
Taking the premise that he is a successful record producer, why should
he bother hitting on wannabes for £56.00 ($98.00)? The answer is quite
obvious, isn't it?
I have been able to get to the bottom of nearly everything Dec has
claimed, and quite frankly, none of it stacks up as true. If he wasn't
selling I'd be quite happy to let it go as poetic licence.
I end by quoting another poster at RMMS - "a side show huckster" and a
private post I received from somebody who admitted they had been
scammed and thanked me for my anti-Dec work.
Declan Cluskey doesn't have the imagination to lie, nor the integrity
to tell the truth.
Bob further wrote :-
"Anyway, great newsgroup with great people, all of them, even if there
are a few heated issues and more heated people occasionally. You don't
get this anywhere else on the net."
Regards to all and I wish you a Happy and prosperous New Year. Cheers.
Bob in Scotland."
Thanks Bob, and the same to you.
Regards,
Richard
PS You said , "The meter is running....." - Yep, my meter's run out.
--
Links to Interesting Songwriting Sites :-
http://www.angelfire.com/music2/richhoncho/index.htm
Please send details of any recommendations.
PaulB
"Richard Wilcox" <richh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93rvdu$4pj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
> I think you're talking about me, amongst others, so forgive me, but I
> think a rebuttal is in order. I have only had a go at "advertisers" on
> this NG - the rest I have either supported fully, or refrained from
> making any post whatsover. RMMS should not and is not a cheap
> advertising hoarding for the likes of Dec Cluskey. That is the only
> reason he posts at RMMS - to make money out of people who know no
> better. I think the posters all know better, it's just there are
> lurkers who may fall for his condescending attitude. Those that have
> advertised a service or product, which IMHO, is genuine and might be
> of use to any songwriter I have added a link to my site (noted below).
> If I made any error of judgment in what I included, please let me know
> and I will remove pronto.
Richard,
Wow....very well written piece. Basically, I think of this newsgroup
as an analogy Richhonco made a few months ago, also in a thread
about Dec, as a big family, some who are close and like each
other and, at the time, some who may not care for each other and
who may deliberately sit at the end of the other end of the table
at family gatherings because they don't care about the other person.
Six months later, they may like that person fine and be pissed off
at somebody else. But at a family gathering, if somebody was, say
in the insurance business, they wouldn't show up handing everybody
flyers or brochures about their latest sale which is the equivalent
of what Dec does.
Actually I'm sure a better analogy would be people who join
the chamber of commerce(not sure if there are equivalents
outside the U.S. or what they are called). They do so for
business purposes, to get more business. And yet, again,
people get business by making contacts, networking,
getting their name out. But if somebody came in the
room and started passing out brochures about their
latest service, it would be regarded as tacky.
If they do a good job networking, people will know about
their service when they need it without the hype, the language
that someone would use when hawking some sort of
circus sideshow act. I just don't see all this great advice
Dec is handing out. He recently hawked an email here
that someone about playing the guitar that someone had
sent him a "brilliant" article, something about the use of
nylon strings on an accoustic classical guitar. I'm sure it
was interesting but the writer of the email posted that
Dec had vastly oversold the email. Dec throws around
words like brilliant the way somebody else might say "it
was okay".
Reading Dec's stuff , I feel like some guy at a carnival
who hears the barker shout "step inside and see the
world's most fierce animal....you'll tell all your friends
about it"...pays a dollar and steps inside and sees
a 15 year old poodle with no teeth. The techniques
I've seen him use here remind me of a made for
tv movie I saw recently about a young guy who
married an older (rich) woman and later killed her.
He was a building contractor and was handing
out business cards and hyping people on his
services at the dinner table at a country club.
While they were dancing, his wife asked him
not to hype people and hand out unsoliticed
business cards that way saying "darling, its so
tacky".
PaulB
Richard Wilcox
> Richard,
>
> Wow....very well written piece. Basically, I think of this newsgroup
> as an analogy Richhonco made a few months ago, also in a thread
> about Dec, as a big family, some who are close and like each
> other and, at the time, some who may not care for each other and
> who may deliberately sit at the end of the other end of the table
> at family gatherings because they don't care about the other person.
> Six months later, they may like that person fine and be pissed off
> at somebody else. But at a family gathering, if somebody was, say
> in the insurance business, they wouldn't show up handing everybody
> flyers or brochures about their latest sale which is the equivalent
> of what Dec does.
Paul,
I now owe you 2 drinks :-) And, for those that have forgotten, Paul and
I have also sat at opposite ends of the table at a couple of family
gatherings, nevertheless, he is one of the good guys.
BTW We do have "Chambers of Commerce" in the Uk, but the business is
done behind the scenes - no "uninvited" business cards.
Thanks Paul
Regards,
Keep the muse,
Richard
David Kilpatrick
acpc...@globalnet.co.uk wrote on 14/1/2001 2:28 am:
> I seem to have even more in common with David Kilpatrick than I first
> noticed, since I also make more money from photography( low-level but sold
> widely) than I do from music (ditto). Since you're from Scotland, David, I
> might even get to meet up with you.
But where in Scotland? It's a big place! And Kelso is a wee place. So wee
that the local paper accidentally listed our weekly folk session as a 'gig'
by me (not true at all) and three extra people turned up!
David
Irene Jackson
"Bob in Scotland" <acpc...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:t623jfk...@gxsn.com...
>
> Irene Jackson <i...@irenejackson.com> wrote
> >
> > .......there are still a few in this NG who
> > have no other intention but to write songs, period, with little thought
of
> > being "noticed". I'd say that the majority of us here have some kind of
> > hope of getting our songs outside of the confines of our bedrooms though
> :-)
> >
>
> Hi
> Us schizophrenics have no problem with the art vs. commerce issue. I just
> do both. Don't we.
>
> On the one hand, I sing live in local pubs and clubs doing cover versions
> and getting paid. I would get thrown out if I sang 4 hours of my own
stuff
> instead.
I recently got ousted for singing four hours of mostly my own material.
There you go :-)
Irene
David Kilpatrick
i...@irenejackson.com wrote on 14/1/2001 8:47 pm:
> I recently got ousted for singing four hours of mostly my own material.
> There you go :-)
>
Bob was quite right, it doesn't work! By mistake, our local paper listed our
weekly session as a 'gig' with my name as the artist. Quite a few extra
people turned up and said they thought I was doing a gig, but they were
quite happy with the session. Because I don't do stuff like The wild Rover -
join in, back, sing with but not instigate - I don't do gigs. People often
ask me to sing but I don't, because my own stuff is quite slow in pace and
often a bit serious. It's not that people don't like it, it's just that it
makes the place quiet and interrupts the pace of the session. So generally
I'll just do one of my own songs, occasionally, when the mood is right and
the audience is relaxed and attentive. I think the limit for an average
audience for my stuff is about three or four songs, and that's only if I
make half of those traditional ones (again, I prefer slower and more melodic
stuff).
I would say one thing, though - if I was doing my own songs with the
accompaniment of, say, a good fretless bass player and a hand percussion
player the response would be totally different. A bit of rythm behind slow
melodic 'listening' stuff is enough to keep non-musical people much happier.
David
PaulB
Thank you for the nice reply. I feel silly because I didn't
realize that Richard Wilcox and Richhoncho were the
same person so here I was paraphrasing one of your
old messages back to you.
Since you made reference earlier in this thread to
your web site of songwriters links, I'd like to repeat
what I said in an email to you....you've really done
a good job of putting together a site with lots of
good songwriter links. I hope others will check it
out.
PaulB
"Richard Wilcox" <richh...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93sb1f$c7a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> PaulB wrote :-
> > Richard,
Richard Wilcox
Paul
I was so chuffed (pleased) at being paraphrased I never noticed you
didn't know "me" & "I" were the same people :-)
Again, this time, public thanks for your comments. I really hope the
site is useful, even if only as a time saver to avoid those search
engines :-)
There's now 250 links up there, and several links to other "links
sites" and yet more to be added.....and if anybody wants to help,
please.....
Richard
In article <t65jdl1...@corp.supernews.com>,
--
Bob in Scotland
> > On the one hand, I sing live in local pubs and clubs doing cover
versions
> > and getting paid. I would get thrown out if I sang 4 hours of my own
> stuff instead.
Irene Wrote
> I recently got ousted for singing four hours of mostly my own material.
> There you go :-)
Bob again,
I think an audience would get fed up with 4 hours of ANY singer doing one
style. The only way we keep the shows interesting at all is by the sheer
variety of styles (cover versions, remember) during an evening and by
sharing the load with Tony, a superb lead guitarist who is unbeatable in
this small corner of the music world. He keeps audiences amazed while I try
to keep them amused.
Seems the key with your own music is to package the evening with a couple of
other acts, or playing some tapes before performing your set as the main
attraction. All part of the presentation once again for which I am a great
advocate.
Keep the thinking caps on... Cheers. Bob in Scotland.
Calafia Bohemia
don't know if he's ever come down from that high. I think it all
depends of the preformer. I've been to open mikes where some dolt who
learned how to play his guitar last week ( Which is how long he's been
playing it ) and started whining songs yestersday will torture me for
ten very very long minutes. And others ( at the same open mike, to be
fair ) could preform for hours and I'd change my name to Olivier Twist
and holler "More!"
Cid
Bohemia dances on the wings of sunset, painting the sky with an
artisan's soul.
Bob in Scotland
Richard Wilcox wrote >
>
> I think you're talking about me, amongst others,
Hi Rich
I don't know of any personal conflicts other than those that are shared
here, but I do know that I always try to keep an open mind on most things.
I have my personal feelings on this and many other subjects, but I would
only voice them to either help someone positively or to prevent them being
affected negatively. I don't feel that this is the case here, although I
share many of your thoughts to some degree. Suffice to say I know more than
I am saying at any given time because I don't always know who I am sharing
with. There are some trusted people I have met on this group and others who
I don't know well enough to discuss certain things with, but that will
change over the months.
In the meantime, all comments made about others should be based on fact
rather than feeling, although gut feeling can sometimes still be right.
I look to forward to open discussions with all concerned on songwriting
matters whether they be lyrics, production, performance, marketing, legal or
Uncle Dec matters.
Stay positive and don't let the bitterness of fighting screw up your good
looks. LOL
Cheers. Bob in Scotland.
Richard Wilcox
Hi Bob,
(Full post below)
Everything stated in my post can be substantiated either from Dec's own
posts at RMMS, Millwall Football Club, The (London) Times, or from
Dec's own worded Biog.
If I am wrong on any point it would be my pleasure to eat humble pie -
with just about the biggest apology I've ever had to offer to Dec, too.
I'm not bitter, trust me, I have a big smile on my face most of the
time, (not that it saved my good looks) I just hate wannabes being
ripped off.
There's nothing Dec's offering which is not free elsewhere.
Regards,
Good luck & keep the muse,
Richard
In article <t68n6jq...@gxsn.com>,
--
Ellen Chait Olhsson
> There's nothing Dec's offering which is not free elsewhere.
There is a whole industry of people who teach songwriting and music
business skills here in the US. I have had the excellent fortune to
study with Steve Seskin, Jai Josephs, Tim Sweeney and many others, none
of whom have been any 'free-er' than Dec -- indeed, some are
considerably more expensive for a lot less. There are crit services
that are not free -- there are organizations like NSAI and NCSA and
they are not free (maybe even more expensive than Dec). But, it has
worth every penny (in most cases). Many of these people have nowhere
near the track record and skill level that Dec has demonstrated through
his career and the info he's posted here -- while it's been
stylistically UK-pop-centric, it's often rather good advice.
Dec's style is probably his most off-putting to this crowd: It is, to
me, the classic hyperbole of Show Bizzz -- not always the most popular
style in the US. But so far, Dec's style has been flamboyant but not
dishonest -- he's not spreading snake oil, even if he looks like it;
he's offering a real service.
And when it comes to this kind of service, you often get what you pay
for -- 'free' often means 'buy my book', for example; free seminars are
usually pitches for all the speaker will tell you in his paid seminars.
Really, the people who have accused Dec of being a rip off are not, as
far as I know, ever people who have had direct experience with him or
his group, are they? Not that he can make anyone (much less everyone) a
success, but at $99 what do you expect? Hopefully, some guidance and
inspiration, which a few people have said they have gotten.
Ellen
Richard Wilcox
Hi Ellen,
You are correct there is a whole tranch of "songwriter services
stateside, from excellent, to mediocre, to downright shark-infested.
Which is which I have no idea, nor would I attempt to comment. However,
my thought on it is that if one of the more dubious one's started
posting at RMMS, many of you statesiders would soon be shouting and
screaming about it! I'm not complaining about this, it just seems to be
a truth.
Nor am I complaining about the hyperbole, just the distance between the
hyperbole and the reality and if Dec wants to prove me wrong (whether
privately or here at RMMS) I WILL listen. But as I say nothing is
stacking up right, or even half-right, some of which I have made public
and some that I cannot repeat because of the source.
Finally I quote part of your post, "Not that he can make anyone (much
less everyone) a success, but at $99 what do you expect?"
That's good advice, Ellen, and applies to most, if not all, of these
kind of services.
Regards,
Richard
In article <160120011829032855%el...@hyperback.com>,
--
dec cluskey
I totally refrain (on extremely good advice) from replying to comments made
about me by 'obvious' contributors to this wonderful and useful
newsgroup....I am advised that it is all done to 'taunt' and 'goad'
me......BUT!
"There's nothing Dec's offering which is not free elsewhere"
Excuse me!
I do feel that the question should be asked to the thousands that I have
helped! Or just take a peek at www.makehits.co.uk/applause.htm
Tragically, the sort of statement quoted above is uttered by those who have
not seen a shread of what is 'reserved' for the Members of my Guild. It is
stated by those who have never seen, haven't a 'clue' about my 'stuff',
make outragious accusations against me - knowing that I will not retaliate
in the slightest or try to defend myself or my Guild Members in any way.....
"Rise above it".........an oldie but goodie, in my view!
But that statement! Huh? Enough is enough...for Goodness sake!
The guy who wrote it knows that he has spent an inordinate amount of time
goading me by private Email, insulting me, accusing me, slagging me
off....in whatever language you want to use......but never, ever have I done
anything but HELP music guys......sad really! "All Good will be
attacked"...was it John, in the Gospels, said that?
Unfortunately, I am rediculously busy (mostly looking after my Members,
attending to my other businesses and my band) and can't spend the time
answering all the silly questions ...the answers are freely available in
Guinness Book of Records, Guinness Book of Hit Records, Guinness Book of Hit
TV Shows, Top Ten of Everything etc.....etc......etc.....
And who says I belong to a SECRET organization? Come along on
Sunday....we'll all be there, PRIVATE, not SECRET...I shall be proposing my
pal John Lodge (Moody Blues) for membership....the ceremonies are secret:-
328 Grays Inn Road, London WC1X 8BZ....from 4pm....by the way, I've got to
leave by 5pm ...I'm a VIP guest at the London Hilton in Park Lane....come
along to that as well!
Why am I saying all this? No, I'm not falling for the 'goading', for the
'taunting'.....can you tell I'm screaming with laughter? Just having a
laugh and a giggle before I go to bed.... by the way, the venues are
correct....but I doubt if the doormen will let 'our friend' in.....they're
SECRET...don't cha know?
regards
PS: I won't be replying to the 'goading' mails for a while....too many
genuine music people to help (for FREE)! Check it out!
www.makehits.co.uk
"where the lil' guy gets the same chance as the big guy"
Richard Wilcox wrote in message <9424sf$47j$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Richard Wilcox
Dec,
I'll answer your points one by one :-
I printed down and read www.makehits.co.uk/applause.htm and I've seen
those kind of endorsements before, timeshare, pyramid selling, "success
with girls," penis extensions etc etc. Others can make their own
judgment. You have mine.
Yes, of course you're in the Guinness Book of Hit Singles, last entry
1969, I have said "well done" privately, and I will say it again
here, "well done," make no mistake, the Bachelors were big in the UK.
Nobody can, or is trying to, take that away from you. I also note with
pleasure the number of albums you sold during that period, certainly
more than I would have expected for the type of act the Bachelors were.
However, the are no entries under "Cluskey" or "Bachelors" in the 2000
edition of the Guinness Book of Records. The other books you mentioned
I haven't checked.
The "Secret Organisation" bit is a direct quote from one of your posts
at RMMS of mid-July. If I got it wrong then so did you!
I attacked you by private e-mail, you say- if anybody wants to read my
posts to you I am happy to send copies to anybody who asks, and, with
your permission, also I would like to send your replies. Let the jury
decide :-)
Finally, I know this is not quite netiquette, but you did mention two
things you are involved in musically besides the "Serious Writers
Guild" - with those things, again I wish you every success.
Also I wish you a long and prosperous life , with only one proviso,
take that Guild away from RMMS. If ever we meet we can have a few jars,
a laugh, and a talk about the "good old days" - providing neither of us
mentions the "Serious Writers Guild"
This is probably my penultimate post on the matter of "The Serious
Writers Guild". Make the most of it.
Regards
& best wishes,
Richard
In article <3a66...@shiva.ukisp.net>,
--