Are any of you professional songwriters with recorded songs?
JWL
with those who have sold songs, that are on albums, preferably even on the
radio, and especially if you've broken in recently (and therefore can speak
of todays market with respect to the newcomer). But I really welcome
anyone's input. I am exploring questions like:
1) What genres are most likely to buy outside songs right now (any
illumination on this besides just saying "Country, R&B, Pop" is helpful)?
2) How you networked and got in touch with the right people (sweat and elbow
grease is acceptable answer but more specific if you can)?
3) How are emerging music industry phenomena like music downloading and
pervasive homogonous monolithic worldwide distribution of a small collection
of highly commercial artists effecting/changing the nature and business of
songwriting and selling?
4) Which truly has the higher risk of a bad, perhaps unrecoverable crash:
selling your songs or performing your own songs (ie, start a band)? My
research says being your own act is higher risk. But it is more attractive
to me artisitically...
5) Anyone have good books or websites or other lists/messageboards to
recommend?
Feel free to email me directly. Just drop out the presidents name in the
address below.
Thanks!
Bumperfroggy
>Subject: Are any of you professional songwriters with recorded songs?
>From: "JWL" joeBUSH...@hotmail.com
>Date: 8/21/03 11:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <vk9np0e...@corp.supernews.com>
>
>I am trying to research the songwriting market and interested in conversing
>with those who have sold songs, that are on albums, preferably even on the
>radio, and especially if you've broken in recently (and therefore can speak
>of todays market with respect to the newcomer). But I really welcome
>anyone's input. I am exploring questions like:
>
>1) What genres are most likely to buy outside songs right now (any
>illumination on this besides just saying "Country, R&B, Pop" is helpful)
No one really buys songs, they publish songs the writer takes credit and keeps
the songwriting royalties, if someone wants to actually buy a song, chances are
they don't know how it really works or have an agenda. I'd guesstimate that 90%
of artist in country music record outside material, even if some of them write
their own stuff, rarely do you see an entire albums worth of songs written by
the artist. R&B/rap/hip hop etc.. is mostly producer/songwriting, where the
producer usually writes most of the music for the artist. Pop/rock is a mix of
songwriters, producers and artists writing the music. The songwriting business
is and always has been big, cheap out the top 40 in all genres (is that spelled
right?) and you'll notice that most artists overall don't write their own
material or cowrite write it.
>
>2) How you networked and got in touch with the right people (sweat and elbow
>grease is acceptable answer but more specific if you can)?
Publishers, you can find hundreds or more on the internet as well as some
books. You need to get intouch with publishers.
>
>3) How are emerging music industry phenomena like music downloading and
>pervasive homogonous monolithic worldwide distribution of a small collection
>of highly commercial artists effecting/changing the nature and business of
>songwriting and selling?
Not all that much right now, if at all. Artists still need songs and always
will.
>
>4) Which truly has the higher risk of a bad, perhaps unrecoverable crash:
>selling your songs or performing your own songs (ie, start a band)? My
>research says being your own act is higher risk. But it is more attractive
Again, you don't sell songs. It's easier to be successful as a songwriter in my
opinion. You don't have to worry about image, age etc, and you have many more
opportunities to get heard.
>
>5) Anyone have good books or websites or other lists/messageboards to
>recommend?
Don't read many books on songwriting anymore, others can suggest some I'm sure,
as they always do.
jwl
"make money on my songs", having them be published and making royalties, of
course. I do understand the significance of the difference.
The question regarding downloading was in regards to the fact that while an
artist may still possibily "profit" in some respect from somebody illegally
downloading thier song (the downloader might be just slightly more likely to
go to the artists show when they come to town, or so goes the argument), a
songwriter does not stand in any way to profit from it. Is this making a
significant dent in the collective songwriter's pocketbook?
"Bumperfroggy" <bumper...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030821113824...@mb-m02.aol.com...
David F. Cox
"JWL" <joeBUSH...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vk9np0e...@corp.supernews.com...
What makes you think most of us are not all interested in that stuff?
Why not post the questions here for all to benefit from the answers?
Have you Google group searched for those answers that have already been
given many times?
David F. Cox
David F. Cox
Rick Paul
conversing
: with those who have sold songs, that are on albums, preferably even on the
: radio, and especially if you've broken in recently (and therefore can
speak
: of todays market with respect to the newcomer). But I really welcome
: anyone's input. I am exploring questions like:
I've "sold" (er, "licensed") my songs, but only at the independent level to
date. Some of those have had radio airplay, mostly on small independent
stations overseas, and I've yet to see any airplay royalties from any of
that via ASCAP (my performing rights organization) despite having some
degree of documentation of the airplay. I'm definitely not yet at the level
of making a living from it, though I have had some income, mostly in the
form of mechanical royalties and a bit of performance royalties (via ASCAP's
program for those whose songs do get performed but don't get significant
broadcast performances).
: 1) What genres are most likely to buy outside songs right now (any
: illumination on this besides just saying "Country, R&B, Pop" is helpful)?
I think something like 9 of my released cuts to date have been country. 1
was southern gospel. One was rock, but that was with me performing it (and
was on a charity project, so doesn't really count on the income side), and
one more that was a radio-only release (to help promote a charity) was
probably what I might call pop/rock. I also had a couple of songs in a
musical theatre production that had some performances. My next known cut,
which should be released this fall, should be pop, with a few other country
and pop cuts possibly waiting in the wings, though much less certain (the
pop one mentioned is already signed).
If I use my experience, both with the actual cuts and with historic interest
in my songs, I'd have to say the key places using outside music right now
are country (probably at least 90% of my inquiries) and pop/adult
contemporary (most of the rest, with young pop making up the larger share,
but more mature pop/AC being the most likely to do anything for me
personally, probably due to that being more where my writing style sits).
Rock of any type is pretty much non-existent in that, though I do write
pop/rock and what might be called classic rock nowadays (my 11 year old
daughter assures me my "rock" is not rock).
: 2) How you networked and got in touch with the right people (sweat and
elbow
: grease is acceptable answer but more specific if you can)?
I pretty much suck at networking, and most of my opportunities to date have
come about via my website, either by someone's finding me in a web search or
via a referral, or by my seeing a lead looking for songs and responding to
that and referring the individual to my web site as a first line of defense
for seeing if there may be some interest.
That said, my most promising opportunities at the moment for actually
getting the kind of cuts that could pay some bills are via a publisher who
is working the Nashville market. I met the individuals involved via the
net -- I don't recall if it was RMMS (i.e. this newsgroup) or a
songwriting-related mailing list at this point as I've known both of the
individuals for quite awhile now (I've been on RMMS since about mid-1996,
though I mostly just lurk these days). It's too early to say if anything
will come from this, but the early results, mainly in the form of some key
players in that particular market's picking up songs for further review for
some major label acts, some of whom are major artists already, are
encouraging.
If I had to summarize that in terms of your question, I think I would say
the key is just being there and putting yourself out there over the long
haul. In particular, network with the people who you now consider your
peers, comparing notes, working on things together, trying to help one
another, and so on. The person you know now as a songwriter may well be the
publisher who can get your songs to the right people 5 or 10 years down the
road, or perhaps the A&R rep for a major artist or the producer for that
artist or ...
: 3) How are emerging music industry phenomena like music downloading and
: pervasive homogonous monolithic worldwide distribution of a small
collection
: of highly commercial artists effecting/changing the nature and business of
: songwriting and selling?
It's hard to say for me since I haven't yet reached the level of success
where I could notice an impact. On the one hand, the net has been a major
help to me as it helps me get my songs out there where people who need them
can find them. I never would have connected with any of the artists who
have recorded my songs, whether for the 10-12 releases that are out there or
the at least equal number of artist demos that have been done, had it not
been for the net because only two or three of the artists who have done my
songs are local to me, and there is only one of those that I did not first
meet via the net (and the other I met via a group that I would not have been
in had I not initially found out about it via the net from a cowriter who
was in Nashville at the time).
I was getting my songs out there in a limited fashion before that, but it
was always things like pitching to publishers for specific opportunities,
which is a bit too narrow a focus if you are trying to market a catalog of
songs and find anywhere they might fit since the odds you'll have exactly
what that person wants at that moment without prior knowledge are miniscule.
With the net, though, people who have needs that fit what I have can find
me, so opportunities I get tend to be much more targeted toward what I can
actually provide. Also, by just being out there over the long haul, people
can become familiar with whatever quality level you have to offer such that,
even if they might not have needs that match what you have now, they can
keep you in mind in case they ever do in the future. But I digress...
I've had clips of my songs on the web since mid-1996, and that is the only
reason I can cost-effectively get my music out there to a large number of
independent artists. If I had to send a CD (or, in the past, a cassette) to
anyone who might be a suspect for my music, it would be very hard to afford
to do it, even if I could find them in the first place. So, in that
respect, limited downloading has been almost a necessity in whatever career
development I've had over the past 7 years.
On the other hand, I certainly recognize that songwriters don't make a dime
of things like artist T-shirts, concert tickets (except where those
translate to performance royalties for the really big tours), and so on, so,
unless those downloads are sales or receive performance royalties, there
certainly is a risk to the ability to make a living where it might not
impact the actual recording artists as much since they probably make more
from touring and merchandise sales than record sales anyway in many cases.
: 4) Which truly has the higher risk of a bad, perhaps unrecoverable crash:
: selling your songs or performing your own songs (ie, start a band)? My
: research says being your own act is higher risk. But it is more
attractive
: to me artisitically...
Perhaps it depends on the specifics of your situation, such as the type of
songs you write (are they marketable where outside songs are used), your
skills (are you actually a good recording artist, producer, etc.?), age (are
you marketable as an artist at the level at, and in the genre in, which you
desire to success?), etc.
It is definitely tough getting songs out there via other people because
there is so much competition, from the artist who likely writes songs
himself/herself, to the artist's producer, to the artist's friends, and so
on. Long gone are the days where the norm was singers who did not write
their own songs. There are still pockets of that, but many of those genres
now have a norm of producers who write the songs for these artists. So a big
question if you want to be an outside writer is whether you write in the
genres where there still is a big enough market, and how your songs compare
with the established and upcoming competition's in these markets.
The self-contained writer/artist, on the other hand, has a lot more control.
They can record whatever they want. Of course, then the question is can
they get anyone to buy it, especially in the kind of numbers they desire for
the level of success they seek. Lots of artists and bands are out there now
spending $10K to $20K to make albums of which they press maybe 1,000 units,
and never even end up selling out those initial units, no less sell enough
to actually recoup their investment and make a living. And if they're not
selling the CDs, odds are they're also not drawing big enough crowds to make
a reasonable live performance living, either, unless they also do the cover
band thing, but we're not talking about that here since you were talking
about making a living with one's songwriting.
But CD sales and live performances aren't the only areas of possible income
for the self-contained artist. For example, if they can make quality master
recordings, there is the film and TV market (e.g. the kinds of songs that
get used on, for example, "Dawson's Creek", or as source material in all
levels of movies). For the most part, no one cares how old an artist
working in this area is because the artist is usually invisible -- the song
just plays in the background under a dramatic (or comedic or ...) scene.
You do need quality recordings here, though -- we aren't talking just
demonstrate your song to the degree that someone else can learn it and
rerecord it.
Of course, you can always mix areas. I have found, for example, that my
live performances can help elicit interest in my songs. I'm not quite to
the point of being able to consistently produce master-quality recordings,
so I haven't yet tried seriously to address the film and TV markets, but
that is something I do have in my sights as a possible future when I can
either get my production skills up to the level they need to be (and I am
getting closer) or have enough income coming in from other areas to fund
outside production.
: 5) Anyone have good books or websites or other lists/messageboards to
: recommend?
There are lots of good books out there. A few in particular that I've found
very useful in getting some idea of the business side of things include:
Tim Sweeney's Guide to Releasing Independent Records (Sweeney) - Sort of
an "alternative treatise" for the non-traditional music business, coming
from someone who's been there in the traditional music business.
This Business of Music (Krasilovsky and Shemel) - Kind of like the bible
of how things work in the traditional music business. Very dry reading, but
comprehensive.
This Business of Music Marketing & Promotion (Lathrop and Pettigrew) -
Concentrates specifically on getting product out to market and getting the
word out, as opposed to how the legal and administrative sides of the
business work.
How to Pitch and Promote Your Songs (Koller) - Is self publishing
something to consider? This book gives insight to what is involved and
helps get a feel for the pros and cons of doing that if your goal is to get
your songs to other artists.
There are probably good information sites on the web as well, but the thing
I think that is likely to be even more valuable on the net in general is the
opportunities for networking, be it in a newgroup like this, on a
topic-specific mailing list (search yahoogroups.com for possibilities), or
in a webboard (e.g. jpfolks.com is probably the biggest music networking
group out there right now). And, perhaps most importantly, at least in my
experience, get your own web site out there, too, so everyone you come into
contact with at least has the opportunity to check your stuff out. You
never know where opportunities will come from, but, to get them, you have to
let people know what you have.
Rick
--
==========================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Lake Forest, California
E-mail: rick...@earthlink.net
Web: http://home.earthlink.net/~rickpaul
MP3s: http://rickpaul.iuma.com
"Ho Ho Ho Spice" (benefit Christmas CD for HOSPICE):
http://www.hohohospice.com
==========================================
Toy Stein
--
Toy
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/8/toysteinmusic.htm
"Rick Paul" <rick...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:0gj1b.3127$lw4....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
David F. Cox
"Toy Stein" <toys...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:pqm1b.12968$nf3.11466@fed1read07...
I'll second that. put it into my rmms tips file. Thanks.- it actually might
stir me to action.
You mentioned T-shirts, and this time a light came on. You said the
songwriter does not make anything from the artists T-shirt, and naturally my
contrary nature was stirred. I have an image and a verse that I was thinking
of putting on a T-shirt, why don't I try and sell them?
David F. Cox
OSSONGS
>From: "Rick Paul" rick...@earthlink.net
>Date: 8/22/2003 12:04 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <0gj1b.3127$lw4....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>
>
>"JWL" <joeBUSH...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:vk9np0e...@corp.supernews.com...
>: I am trying to research the songwriting market and interested in
>conversing
>: with those who have sold songs, that are on albums, preferably even on the
>: radio, and especially if you've broken in recently (and therefore can
>speak
>: of todays market with respect to the newcomer). But I really welcome
>: anyone's input. I am exploring questions like:
>
>I've "sold" (er, "licensed") my songs, but only at the independent level to
>date. Some of those have had radio airplay, mostly on small independent
>stations overseas, and I've yet to see any airplay royalties from any of
>that via ASCAP (my performing rights organization) despite having some
>degree of documentation of the airplay. >
Hi Rick.
I am surprised to know you have no performance royalties.
Were they played in Europe too?
If so, you should be getting some royalties from airplay there, plus the mechs.
BMI sent mine (small potatoes); at six month intervals.
Dolores
<... (I'm definitely not yet at the level
OSSONGS
>Date: 8/22/2003 4:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <mrn1b.130$nF6...@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net>
Why don't you?
If the message is suitable for my 3 yr old grandson Declan to read (he's so
smart ;-) I'll buy it David :-)
Dolores
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
JWL
summary of the whole framework, I have to let it sink in.
As to the kind of music I make, up until about 6 months ago I had focussed
on downtempo electronica and drum and bass, and in fact went through a
"guitar's suck" phase and wasn't even writing lyrics or singing for a few
years. But suddenly about January some kind of dam in my brain broke and I
just started writing song after song on the guitar. And I decided since it
is apparent I will not "make it" performing my own songs without a huge
amount of risk, I decided that it was still much truer to myself to spend my
life writing songs and having others perform them than to continue with my
current, dreary, day-job career (although I'm sure it will be with me for a
long time while my songwriting career becomes solvent). I think most of my
better songs would float in Rock or Pop, and many of them in Country (I have
never been a big fan of country but strangely now that I am writing Songs
again, I have discovered all these Country artists I like, though mostly
older ones [Cash, Nelson, etc...], weird how that works). So my nearterm
goal would be to perfect some songs in each target genre, and probably put
together a Rock/Pop demo with those sorts of songs, a Country demo with
those sorts of songs, etc. We'll see whether my computer based electronic
music experience can help me produce those kinds of demos in a decent manner
(I'm starting to doubt it...) at hopefully lower cost. But first, I have to
get my head around the industry and how it works... Thanks for your
assistance there.
Rambling on....
amnesiac jimmy
song related! Thanks esp to Rick.
wrt to merchandise, we did a local gig a month or so back and some
frineds of mine who went were at our school fair running a stall
pressing badges. They had done a badge for us for a laugh saying the
Amnesiacs World Tour Otley 2003. Could be cheap source of
supplementary income for those of you giggin regularly?
hth
Dave
Rick Paul
news:mrn1b.130$nF6...@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
: You mentioned T-shirts, and this time a light came on. You said the
: songwriter does not make anything from the artists T-shirt, and naturally
my
: contrary nature was stirred. I have an image and a verse that I was
thinking
: of putting on a T-shirt, why don't I try and sell them?
There's certainly nothing stopping you from doing that. However, how does a
songwriter who is not also an artist get his T-shirt out to the general
public? The artist has concerts and such, which is, in large part, unless
the band is really huge anyway (e.g. KISS and their merchandising empire),
where fans buy the T-shirts. But the songwriter doesn't have that.
Of course, you could try marketing it on your web site, anywhere that might
like a message T-shirt in and of its own intrinsic value (i.e. not as a
fan's souvenir purchase like most artist T-shirts), etc. But it is probably
not being led by the music in that case.
As an aside, there have been a few children's book now that are based on
songs. I know both "He Didn't Have to Be" and "I Hope You Dance" had
children's books. But that was after the success of the songs in the
charts, and extremely wide success with the latter, too. So there are
definitely other outlets for songwriters. And, of course, as songwriters,
we're creative people, so there's nothing to stop us from getting creative
with our marketing!
Rick
--
==========================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Lake Forest, California
E-mail: rick...@earthlink.net
Web: http://home.earthlink.net/~rickpaul
MP3s: http://rickpaul.iuma.com
"Ho Ho Ho Spice" (benefit Christmas CD for HOSPICE):
http://www.cdbaby.com/hohohospice
==========================================
Rick Paul
news:20030822090431...@mb-m18.aol.com...
: I am surprised to know you have no performance royalties.
: Were they played in Europe too?
Mostly in Europe, in fact. I think, though, that the stations were probably
small indie stations, perhaps similar to NPR here or something. In any
event, though I saw play logs on various boards on the net, ASCAP never
picked them up. And I even remember one DJ writing to me to say he'd
reported the play to whatever the PRO was in his particular country (from
vague memory I think he was from Denmark, but that was a long while ago).
My most recent airplay that I know about was in Norway, and it was very
frequent there (for an artist named Paul Johansen who recorded two of my
songs, both of which were played on the air, with one, "Loser's Rodeo",
being in frequent rotation). It is still a little too early to see if ASCAP
will pick that airplay up as there is a pretty big delay with international
airplay, so perhaps there's hope this time. I think Paul got more airplay
than most of the other artists who have recorded my songs, although I think
it also may have been a bit more localized to one part of Norway.
: If so, you should be getting some royalties from airplay there, plus the
mechs.
: BMI sent mine (small potatoes); at six month intervals.
I've dealt with the mechanicals directly, so that is pretty straightforward.
At this point, though, the only performance royalties I've gotten is from
ASCAP's separate awards program, which is more about things like my own live
performances.