What kind of recordings do agents want to ear?
fig000
I just started writing songs recently (a bit late in life). I am
planning on recording my originals but am unsure if an agent will be
turned off by a raw "just me and my guitar" recording or if I need a
full band (or at least some looped in additional instruments such as
drum and base.
I live in Knoxville Tenn and plan to send to agents all over the
country. Most of my songs are folky but sort of alternative folk.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Fig000
Tom Hendricks / Musea
If you are trying to please someone else you are lost.
Do what is right for you and what you do best - that in the end
is what any real person in the music business will respond to ,
because that is what listeners will respond to.
I am leading the POST-BANDS music movement - the first new type
of music this century. It's against what 40+ years of bands have
become.
I play a 1964 Standard guitar, and I suggest the back-to-basics new
simplified music is more passionate, fun, exciting, and new than any
band of
the last decade.
Going with just a guitar is the future IMO
Long live the revolution in arts
Tom Hendricks (Hunkasaurus and His Pet Dog Guitar)
http://www.hunkasaurus.com
http://www.musea.us
![Dec [Cluskey]'s profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjXOIdicD27KLgvp612cXlqNm2cXRNukvx0eyr1XYcUrBeGQQfk=s40-c)
Dec [Cluskey]
> Hi,
>
> I just started writing songs recently (a bit late in life). I am
>
> Fig000
Hi Fig000
You are embarking on a long and difficult road [if you are looking for
recording success].
Record companies/Publishers/Agents/Managements/Production Companies
are all looking for hit records every second of the day. And they
will listen to the 'song' ... in any form ... provided it is a hit
potential song in the first ten seconds and fits comfortably between
the Number One and Number Three this week in Billboard..
You have to ask yourself is the song/songs you intend promoting as
strong as "More Than Words" by Extreme [just one guitar and two
voices] or "Breathe Easy" by Sugababes on their 'Angels With Dirty
Faces' album [three voices and keyboard].
There are basically two ways of presenting a song
1) A full blown ready to release production .... easy with a Hit song,
a Hit Producer and a reasonable studio. 'Can't Get You Out of my
Head' was presented like this ... they simply replaced the demo voice
with Kylie's.
2) A 'stripped down' version to allow a Hit producer to put the gloss
and fairy dust on it. It is worth noting that stripped down songs are
very popular as tracks on mainstream albums by major artists.
A number of points worth noting ...
* It is impossible to learn the art and methodology of writing and
creating Hit Music while strolling on the beach ... it has to be
learned and learned hard.
* Success in music is 80% visual and only 20% music ... a hard but
true fact today.
* No company of import will open unsolicited Jiffy Bags in this
terrorist riddled age. We certainly will not .... I have a picture in
my brain of walking in to the office one morning and seeing a
secretary with her hands blown off ...
They will open well presented, exciting and professional letters ...
how do you wirte them? Aaaaaah! That has to be learned as well.
Dec [Cluskey]
Danny T
First off, you probably mean you want to send it to publishers, but
you will also want to send it to artists managers and others that have
a doorway to talent.
What you record matters little or a lot depending on who you send it
to and what they have going on at the time. Some people have to hear a
fully produced mix while others can here a melody and words and be
jazzed. Some of the people that only need to hear the rough stuff may
pass on a song or take one that is fully produced that they like less
then the next song just because there is so little work to be done
before it is finished. Its really a crap shoot. I mean that in this
way - if you write a lot of songs it is probably better to make rough
recordings fast and send them out so you can get them all out. If you
only write a song once in a while you might want to make it sound like
a record because its the only song on your plate for some time.
there are people that call themselves agents for shopping your tunes.
I would advise you to steer clear of them. I personally can't stand
working with agents. I'd much rather have a hand shake from a
songwriter and work directly with them, let them talk to an attorney
and get back to me. Not all publishers are created equal and most are
song whores. They collect all the songs they can and hold on to them
forever even if they never use them. What you want is someone that has
a use for your song and a reputation for not taking songs unless they
plan to use them. its a hard thing to do but anything less then that
is a waste of time and you're better off buying lotto tickets.
The big name acts are covered. If you are not a sister/brother/uncle
of the artists, don't bother. Its not likely you'll ever get heard.
The up and coming acts that are in good clubs but don't have hits are
the best place to shop your songs. You shopping your song is the best
thing you could do. the days of forced credibility is almost over.
There are some people still doing it that way and the majors still do
it that way but those companies are on the way out.
Music has become something more like it was 100 years ago.
superstardom has faded and lots of little acts are in. There is a
radio market but your best promotion these days is in film and TV.
There isn't a lot of money in that anymore but there is promotion.
That is the number one way for start up bands to get notoriety. If
your song gets used on a TV show with a start up band, the downloads
go through the roof an you will see a profit.
Good luck to you and when some people start telling you all about how
you have so spend your money on them to get your songs places, just
remember that if they were so good as to be able to do that, they
would be placing there own songs. After all, those people are song
writers too or they wouldn't have gotten into the business in the
first place.
Pepe Papon
First suggestion would be to read some books on the music business. If
you use words like "agents", it flags you right away as a
non-professional, and you'll never get in any legitimate doors. The
music business is just that - a business, and like any other business,
you need to know the ins and outs if you hope to be successful.
Also, since you just started writing, the harsh reality is that it's
unlikely the songs are what the industry needs. Learning and honing
the craft is a long-term process for most people. The competition in
the music business is fierce, and you're up against pros who've been
working on it their entire lives.
That's not to say it can't be done. I'm still trying. It's just
that it takes a lot of time and a real commitment.
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net
fig000
I appreciate all the advice, really, since I clearly know nothing
about this process of pitching songs for sale. I'm not surprised to
hear it's complicated.
I think whoever said that my use of the word "agent" shows my lack
of knowlege was right on the money. I'm also shopping a novel and sort
of used the phraseology of the book industry. In that industry you're
ability to go straight to a publisher and get published has gone down
to almost nil in the last twenty years. You pretty much have to go to
an agent and, as mentioned here, self promotion is becoming an option
(excuding, of course, the self publishing mills such as Trandon who
don't do much promotion for you).
This being said I'll ask for clarification. I remember reading an
article by someone who is now a successful country song-writer (Got a
couple of his songs done by Garth Brooks; I think he might have
written "Ain't going down") who said he worked for what I'll assume
now is a publisher. He was hired as an in-house song-writer (though
eventually fired).
So what is the type of business that takes songs and tries to sell
them for you? It would be much like an agent in the book industry. I
do plan to look into getting myself on CD baby and other similar
things but I figure I should try everything that has the possibility
of success. Is there a musical equivalent of a book agent who will
represent you or do I need to go to whoever would publish the music (a
record company perhaps?)
Final note. My songs are sort of alternative folk. I don't expect
Sony to pick them up, nor will I shop myself as the artist as I'm
approaching 50 (too fast :-)) and no one is going to want to look at
my face on a CD cover. Despite the genre I write in, I was pleased to
see that Jack Johnson is second in sales only to Mariah Carey for
2008 so far. So there might be hope for my songs while there is no
hope that I will look as appealing physically as Jack Johnson. There's
also Keb Mo who got his recording start pretty late.
I will do my reading and researching as someone suggested; I know I
can't get all my answers here. But any pointers to lead me in the
right direction would be appreciated.
Thanks again for all the thoughtful answers.
Fig000
On Apr 27, 4:08 am, Pepe Papon
<hitmeister.at.mindpring.dot.c...@earthlink.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:58:24 -0700 (PDT),fig000
>
> MySpace URL -http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Danny T
<hitmeister.at.mindpring.dot.c...@earthlink.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:58:24 -0700 (PDT), fig000
>
> Songwriting and Music Business Info:http://www.sethjackson.net
I'm going to disagree with you on this but not to say you are so wrong
so there! I'm going to disagree to let you know the world isn't that
harsh.
First of all, publishers are in actuality, agents so he is not that
far off. The word we use is industry standard but not knowing that
won't preclude anyone from getting in any doors. In fact, I think its
easier to deal with newbies to the biz then the guy that thinks he
knows it all. I think most people agree. We may not expect to get good
songs but then we really don't expect anyone to give us good songs.
Its only the few and they are far between that send good tunes to us
so in general, we expect to be let down. I know its hard to go through
the routine day in and day out without getting a bit tweaked but
really, you should look at it from the outside and get the reality
picture.
The picture from the outside should seem like this: there is a band,
publisher or other that has a studio, connections and a musical ear.
Without a good song, none of that makes any difference and is
worthless. Its really hard to sell a CD full of good intensions.....
If people look at it as they should, the publisher is LUCKY to have
you come to him no matter how much or how little you know about the
industry. Your vocabulary and ways of presentation are of little
consequence to the final product. I've come to believe that any
publisher that doesn't treat the writer as if each one is special, is
a worthless publisher. They can only be acting that way because they
have signed to many songs and have little room to work with any of the
ones they already have.
When Ride a Cowboy was brought into the office, no one bet the
president thought it would go anywhere and the reps all cringed (this
is first hand from someone that was in the room). The ONLY ones that
know what the industry needs is the audience at the speaker end of the
radio! What it all boils down to is taste and that changes over time.
Just think about David Gates and Bread shopping their songs today, for
instance. I think they would appeal to just as many buyers now as they
did then but they would never get through the doors because there are
changes in taste - though, if promoted with the right people the
industry would make a lot of money from them. The industry still does.
My point to all of this is simple. DON'T count anything short or say
something IS or IS NOT because that will hinder your trying. Use your
best taste and learn the most you can so you fit in as well as you can
but NEVER say it will or will not work. Pull the bindings off and be
yourself. Do what you love, write and play what is closest to your
soul and you will do it better then anything else you do. If what you
do is as good as you can do it, and you have anything in common with
anyone else, it will sell to someone.
The world has seen enough of the clone songs and things are changing
to go back in time - which is much better then the frame of time we
have just gone through. Anyone with any talent will do fine in music
if they are willing to work. The days of a few getting mega rich is
over and except for the small handful of people that once made it, the
world, and all writers/musicians are better off for it. You may not
roll the lotto roll and get that mega hit but you are FAR more likely
to make a good living at music now. Just a little work behind your
endeavor and you are almost assured at making a livable income from
your music, that is, if you actually try.
When you tell someone the things you did, like you better learn this
or else you will fail, I know you mean well. The thing is, this isn't
just to correct you from messing that guy up, this is to help you too.
Don't close the door in your own face because of a preconceived notion
of what the industry is. From about the Mid 70's things started
getting better, in the 80's people started not liking the mainstream
of music and in the mid 90's the internet opened up really cheap
advertising to a global market. Now, there are so many ways to sell
your music its almost a crime to think major label. Considering the
failure rate of major label acts compared to indie, I would think that
plain to see.
Think positive and do the work. If the music is good, people will buy
it.
Danny T
Something else you might consider, Jack probably only gets about $0.25
on every CD sold after recoupment of costs. He makes a little playing
live and does well from that but think about his overhead and how many
people like him in his contractual agreement type try and fall short.
On the other hand, you, a near 50's guy with 10K in pocket can go out,
record and release a CD and digital downloads of your music and keep
nearly all the money from sales plus your live work. Your overhead is
a PA system and a few musicians to play where you can not just go
solo. That's some worthwhile money.
A long time back I posted something back at DEC and he posted back ...
and just found it the other day. I have a copy I am going to repost
but I want you to know I disagree with DEC about giving the audience
what they want. You do have to do that in some senses but if you do
what YOU LOVE and its any good, the audience will love it to. In my
post I made a statement about a band that would not make it because
people would not like their stuff too much. I was wrong. I left the
post as is below but for the record, that band I said would not make
it actually is doing pretty well. They loved what they were doing and
the niche found them! They are all still pretty poor and as solo's
duo's or even a trio they would have been financially much better off
but they are making a living from their music. SO - below is the post
I think will help you to see my point a little better.
***
I know lots of people making their living from music, but no one is
making a killing. You can live well if you have talent and a little
bit of business skill to treat your business as a business. [exactly
what I always say - Dec]
The main thing you have to remember is that you have to do something
that is worth being paid for. People don't run out and give money
away. You need to perform and do it in a way that makes it worth
something, write songs and perform or perform some service to those
that do. [bring value to the marketplace? Dec]
I have a friend that keeps trying to get me to produce him and, though
everyone in his band is a good musician, none of them write songs that
anyone wants to hear. They don't do covers, so they really aren't
worth a bean. Even if they wrote great songs, their are 5 players and
a sound man to pay. They would have to play 5 nights a week, 50 weeks
of the year and earn $1,200 a night to earn $50,000 a year each. At
$1,200 a night they would have to entertain 240 people willing to give
them $5 a head to do that. That is not likely to happen with a band
like that (if they had a good CD that people would buy, the story
would change -but like I said, they are the only ones that will like
their songs enough to spend money on)
If you play guitar and do it as a duo, play 1/2 covers and 1/2 your
own reasonably good songs and record a decent CD you could make the
same $50,000 by playing 2 nights a week to 150 people that were
willing to pay that same $5 a head to see you selling 20 CD's a night
for $15 each. ($3000 for recording + $2000 to press 2000 copies of
your CD)
You just have to be reasonable in your business plan. True, $50,000
isn't much but we are talking about a starting Position just like
anywhere else. If your following starts to grow (and it would, if you
were any good and especially if you sold CD's) you would increase your
value every year. [you must always give the public what the public
WANT - not what you think they NEED! Dec]
Pepe Papon
<neilne...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> So what is the type of business that takes songs and tries to sell
>them for you? It would be much like an agent in the book industry. I
>do plan to look into getting myself on CD baby and other similar
>things but I figure I should try everything that has the possibility
>of success. Is there a musical equivalent of a book agent who will
>represent you or do I need to go to whoever would publish the music (a
>record company perhaps?)
"Sell" is another one of those words that immediately flags you as an
amateur. Songs aren't sold; they're licensed. In the industry they
talk about getting songs recorded or "cut".
> Final note. My songs are sort of alternative folk. I don't expect
>Sony to pick them up, nor will I shop myself as the artist as I'm
>approaching 50 (too fast :-)) and no one is going to want to look at
>my face on a CD cover. Despite the genre I write in, I was pleased to
>see that Jack Johnson is second in sales only to Mariah Carey for
>2008 so far. So there might be hope for my songs while there is no
>hope that I will look as appealing physically as Jack Johnson. There's
>also Keb Mo who got his recording start pretty late.
Unfortunately, in this genre, most of the artists write their own
material.
> I will do my reading and researching as someone suggested; I know I
>can't get all my answers here. But any pointers to lead me in the
>right direction would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks again for all the thoughtful answers.
A good book to start with would be John Braheny's "The Craft and
Business of Songwriting".
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Pepe Papon
<danny...@gmail.com> wrote:
>First of all, publishers are in actuality, agents so he is not that
>far off. The word we use is industry standard but not knowing that
>won't preclude anyone from getting in any doors. In fact, I think its
>easier to deal with newbies to the biz then the guy that thinks he
>knows it all. I think most people agree. We may not expect to get good
>songs but then we really don't expect anyone to give us good songs.
>Its only the few and they are far between that send good tunes to us
>so in general, we expect to be let down. I know its hard to go through
>the routine day in and day out without getting a bit tweaked but
>really, you should look at it from the outside and get the reality
>picture.
While most publishers I know would love to help out beginning
songwriters if they could, the fact is that they're too busy to take
time listening to songs they expect are going to be bad. If they're
not convinced you're a professional, they'll refer you to the
songwriter organizations whose job it is to help you get educated.
That's exactly what they ought to do.
>The picture from the outside should seem like this: there is a band,
>publisher or other that has a studio, connections and a musical ear.
>Without a good song, none of that makes any difference and is
>worthless. Its really hard to sell a CD full of good intensions.....
>
>If people look at it as they should, the publisher is LUCKY to have
>you come to him no matter how much or how little you know about the
>industry. Your vocabulary and ways of presentation are of little
>consequence to the final product. I've come to believe that any
>publisher that doesn't treat the writer as if each one is special, is
>a worthless publisher. They can only be acting that way because they
>have signed to many songs and have little room to work with any of the
>ones they already have.
The operative phrase is "good songs". The publishers I know have
plenty of songs. Plenty of good ones, in fact. In Nashville,
there's a saying, "We've got plenty of good songs. We need great
songs."
>My point to all of this is simple. DON'T count anything short or say
>something IS or IS NOT because that will hinder your trying. Use your
>best taste and learn the most you can so you fit in as well as you can
>but NEVER say it will or will not work. Pull the bindings off and be
>yourself. Do what you love, write and play what is closest to your
>soul and you will do it better then anything else you do. If what you
>do is as good as you can do it, and you have anything in common with
>anyone else, it will sell to someone.
Your point and mine are about two different things. Sure, you gotta
make the music you love to make, and if it's good, there will be a
market for it. But it won't sell all by itself unless you take care
of the business end of it. If you want to do it yourself, that's a
viable option these days, but since he was asking about pitching to
the industry, I don't think that's what he has in mind.
>The world has seen enough of the clone songs and things are changing
>to go back in time - which is much better then the frame of time we
>have just gone through. Anyone with any talent will do fine in music
>if they are willing to work. The days of a few getting mega rich is
>over and except for the small handful of people that once made it, the
>world, and all writers/musicians are better off for it. You may not
>roll the lotto roll and get that mega hit but you are FAR more likely
>to make a good living at music now. Just a little work behind your
>endeavor and you are almost assured at making a livable income from
>your music, that is, if you actually try.
Actually, my experience says that writing so-called "clone songs"
isn't the path to success, anyway. The best way for a new writer to
break in seems to be to write songs that are similar in some ways to
the ones on the radio, but to have something unique about them. After
all, if your songs are not unique, they have no incentive to choose
them over the ones from their own stables of writers and existing
catalogs.
>When you tell someone the things you did, like you better learn this
>or else you will fail, I know you mean well. The thing is, this isn't
>just to correct you from messing that guy up, this is to help you too.
>Don't close the door in your own face because of a preconceived notion
>of what the industry is. From about the Mid 70's things started
>getting better, in the 80's people started not liking the mainstream
>of music and in the mid 90's the internet opened up really cheap
>advertising to a global market. Now, there are so many ways to sell
>your music its almost a crime to think major label. Considering the
>failure rate of major label acts compared to indie, I would think that
>plain to see.
I have to disagree. If your going to work in an industry, any
industry, you need to know how that industry works. The music
industry is no different in that regard.
It's not like it's an impossible task. There are some very good books
on the subject, and there are songwriter organizations like NSAI who
can also be very helpful.
>Think positive and do the work. If the music is good, people will buy
>it.
People will buy it if it's properly marketed. They can't buy it if
they never hear it.
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Danny T
<hitmeister.at.mindpring.dot.c...@earthlink.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 12:02:42 -0700 (PDT), Danny T
>
> Songwriting and Music Business Info:http://www.sethjackson.net
Seth, I like you and know you are involved in a load of things with
music, shopping and so on, but how well has your way worked for you? I
mean, over the years, have you made or lost money on your music
endeavors? I'm not in anyway trying to cut at you here. I really am
curious to see how you have done. I know you have had some cuts but
its the dollar that counts in business so I ask. Also, I asked that
because I think the music business model has completely changed since
I first made your acquaintance 10 -12 (or more) years ago. In that
time I have placed enough songs that I do pretty well for myself. I'm
not saying you don't know about music and the business and should
remind you me and everyone that there are usually more then one right
answer to things in business but things have changed a lot.
Anyway, it helps to know all there is to know and anything anyone
learns is good.
I would say this though, the two schools of thinking, yours and mine,
return results for different markets. Absolutes absolutely don't work.
I rely on an income from music so I do it the way it seems to work
best for me.
Pepe Papon
<danny...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Seth, I like you and know you are involved in a load of things with
>music, shopping and so on, but how well has your way worked for you? I
>mean, over the years, have you made or lost money on your music
>endeavors? I'm not in anyway trying to cut at you here. I really am
>curious to see how you have done. I know you have had some cuts but
>its the dollar that counts in business so I ask. Also, I asked that
>because I think the music business model has completely changed since
>I first made your acquaintance 10 -12 (or more) years ago. In that
>time I have placed enough songs that I do pretty well for myself. I'm
>not saying you don't know about music and the business and should
>remind you me and everyone that there are usually more then one right
>answer to things in business but things have changed a lot.
Danny, that's not really relevant to what we're discussing. The OP
seems to be interested in getting in to see publishers. I know
you're a publisher, so you're obviously one of the ones who don't care
whether a writer is a pro or a beginner. What I'm saying is that all
of the publishers I know would be unlikely to take material from a
writer who comes off as a beginner. While I'm not currently earning
a living from my music, I have, in fact, been pretty success at
getting publishers and other industry pros interested in my work.
>Anyway, it helps to know all there is to know and anything anyone
>learns is good.
>
>I would say this though, the two schools of thinking, yours and mine,
>return results for different markets. Absolutes absolutely don't work.
>I rely on an income from music so I do it the way it seems to work
>best for me.
I've actually been agreeing with you on this point. I know people
making a living with the DIY method of making and marketing CDs.
Still, whatever channel you choose, your terminology and image must
appeal to whatever group of people you're selling to. Marketing
101.
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Danny T
<hitmeister.at.mindpring.dot.c...@earthlink.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:45:13 -0700 (PDT), Danny T
>
> Songwriting and Music Business Info:http://www.sethjackson.net
Seth, My typing tone is not reflective of my thinking tone
usually..... I am not discounting you and I do know you have had a lot
of cuts. I am actually interested in knowing how well it works. What I
mean is that you are pretty good at what you do, you have written and
recorded loads of songs over the years (and spent a lot of money in
nashville on good musicians and so on) and played the game by the book
for as long as I've known you. So, I would say that you are doing MUCH
better then the average guy out there doing the songwriting gig and
sending songs out to publishers. Based on you being on the upper end
of things without you really scoring the preverbal hit yet, I would be
curious how you are doing with this as a business.
I just put out a little query for songs about a month ago and I am
still opening packages that came in. Between my wife and I we've
listened to nearly 600 songs this month. Think about that - I put one
post in this newsgroup and got something like 800 songs so far. Think
about what sony/bmg gets!
I've known a few guys that have written huge hits in plural. They have
told me they have a password they put on their submissions that
actually gets them on the desk while almost all others just get tossed
out. There's no way that the big companies are going to spread bad PR
and tell people not to submit - those writers are often their biggest
product consumers.
Anyway, having spent a long time on this end of it maybe I'm tainted
with ill will toward the large companies. I actually have very close
friends at the extreme top of the food chain there but even then,
they'll listen to a song or two and they are done. No need to ruin the
friendship by shoving stuff down their throat.
Here's something else to think about. Years ago I met a guy in college
(yes I can remember back that long ago:-) He worked for Shep Gordon
listening to tapes. All he did was listen to tapes and if he liked
something he put them in a pile for shep to get to. He actually really
pushed my stuff for me and got me in the door but if you could have
seen the garbage cans full of tapes that shep had you'd understand
better just why I have the attitude I do.
Man - I'm rambling here... Anyway, I'd be interested *and yes I know
it's personal* but it is a good measurement of things, to know if
after all these years you are in profit or still in the red. I'd like
to compare that to the backdoor method of getting songs to bands and
direct to TV and such. I think that a guerilla approach works really
well and is becoming easier. I also KNOW that the money in songs is
diminishing so profit margin is important. I think every good song
should make a profit, not just one recording out of 12. You know I
always push promotion - I just push it a lot more now.
I'd bet your demos are about as good as many main stream distributed
music. If you had gone a short step further and put a singer in common
on your songs and had a contract with him/her, instead of just paying
for a demo singer, you could have sold those CD's and over time you
would have made at least something back on your investment.
Here I go rambling again.... anyway, you see where I am going with
this and it would be an interesting comparison to see how well you and
others are doing when doing it "by the book".
Pepe Papon
The answer is that my business has not yet made it to the black. That
doesn't mean I'm doing it "wrong" or that others are doing it "right.
There is no one right way, and I've never meant to suggest that there
is.
It's also not a matter of doing things "by the book" vs. not by the
book. It's a matter of individual goals. My goal has been to get a
major radio hit. It still is. Others may have different goals,
which is the way it should be.
Clearly, it's easier to place songs with unknown artists than with
major label ones. I've been doing a lot more of that lately, as I
have 5 indie cuts slated to come out in the next few months. You
have to do an awful lot of those cuts to turn a profit, however.
You also have a clear advantage in that you are both a musician and a
producer. You have more ways of profiting from your music than
someone like me who only writes songs.
Again, my comments are aimed at songwriters who want to work with
major labels and the mainstream music industry. My impression was
that the OP in this thread was such a writer.
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Danny T
> Songwriting and Music Business Info:http://www.sethjackson.net
I agree with you Seth on all our points. LIke I said, my tone in
thought doesn't always type well onto a page.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear you're going for the indie. It's been my
experience that the smalls guys are a great bet if they are motivated
and talented. You do have to be a little picky. There are a lot of
guys out there that buy 1000 CDs and sit on them forever. That is a
real disappointment thought it is still really great for you as a
writer because you have the worlds best demo of your song for pay
rather then for cost.
One thing does puzzle me though. I knew you went to demo houses but I
thought you were a musician. I thought you played both keyboards and
guitar. I don't know where I got that but ...... well, maybe you can
start now:-) Remember that the one thing all experts have in common is
they all started out as beginners!
Danny
Pepe Papon
<danny...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Anyway, I'm glad to hear you're going for the indie. It's been my
>experience that the smalls guys are a great bet if they are motivated
>and talented. You do have to be a little picky. There are a lot of
>guys out there that buy 1000 CDs and sit on them forever. That is a
>real disappointment thought it is still really great for you as a
>writer because you have the worlds best demo of your song for pay
>rather then for cost.
Actually, the cuts usually aren't as good as my original demos. On
some of the cuts I've had recently, they used my tracks, which I
licensed to the label,
Also, the standard royalty is payable on CDs manufactured, so I get my
royalty payment up front regardless of whether or not they actually
sell the 1000 units. It doesn't add up to a whole lot of money,
though.
>One thing does puzzle me though. I knew you went to demo houses but I
>thought you were a musician. I thought you played both keyboards and
>guitar. I don't know where I got that but ...... well, maybe you can
>start now:-) Remember that the one thing all experts have in common is
>they all started out as beginners!
I play some guitar, but hardly enough where I feel comfortable calling
myself a musician. I've never had the patience to practice enough. I
just bought a beautiful new Takamine guitar, though, so maybe it'll
inspire me a lilttle more.
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Danny T
<hitmeister.at.mindpring.dot.c...@earthlink.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:12:38 -0700 (PDT), Danny T
>
> Songwriting and Music Business Info:http://www.sethjackson.net
Taks are nice. I'm more of an alvarez yairi fan but they are very
close - so are taylors but they cost much more then they are worth.
Good for you and I hope you do practice. I've got a few ideas for you.
First of all, for years, my fingers never quite got into shape. I
bought a grip master (actually I bought 3 of them but only the
lightest one gets used) and in about 3 days my finger tips were as
hard as rocks.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006FLBSO
The other thing I did was to get a wall hanger for my guitars and put
my favorite guitar hinging directly over my favorite chair for sitting
and doing nothing - or watching TV. I just put the guitar in my hands
during the news and over time it because a habit to have it there -
like the remote use to be. It was a funny thing I didn't plan but it
had a great outcome.
Anyway, those 2 things really started me going. I bought my first
guitar when I was 8, started playing a lot when I was 16 but never got
to the point where I thought I could play with confidence until I was
about 35 so there is always hope ;-)
Pepe Papon
My biggest problem is with my right hand. Try as I may, I can't seem
to where I have enough control to hit the correct string with any
consistency while missing the neighboring string.
I also have a problem with limited reach on my left hand. My pinkie
just doesn't stretch far enough.
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Pepe Papon
<danny...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Taks are nice. I'm more of an alvarez yairi fan but they are very
>close - so are taylors but they cost much more then they are worth.
BTW, I had been dreaming of a Taylor until I tried this Tak, which I
got for half price at the ASCAP Expo.
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Danny T
Prepare to take aspirin because you are about to get a beating! Can
you put a spoon full of cereal in your mouth with your eyes closed?
Can you put your little finger in your ear for an itch? can you reach
down and clean yourself in the bathroom? Then you can play a guitar.
It's muscle memory. Put the bloody thing next to your chair and watch
the news or the 70's show but pick the guitar up and change between a
few chords while you do it. It will take a month before you feel good
and 6 before you sound good.
"Either Do, or, Do Not. There is no try"
Yoda :-)
Danny T
<hitmeister.at.mindpring.dot.c...@earthlink.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 1 May 2008 07:49:50 -0700 (PDT), Danny T
>
> >Taks are nice. I'm more of an alvarez yairi fan but they are very
> >close - so are taylors but they cost much more then they are worth.
>
> BTW, I had been dreaming of a Taylor until I tried this Tak, which I
> got for half price at the ASCAP Expo.
> --
> ~ Seth Jackson
>
> Songwriting and Music Business Info:http://www.sethjackson.net
NO argument here! I'm a huge fan of Taks. I want an AN16 but have not
found the right one yet. I have way too many guitars but my favorites
(in love order) Yairi 5060, Yairi DY84K, Alvarez MD90, Yairi C110 -
Alvarez (yairi is the high line) and Taks are VERY much alike. Taylor
is close feel to both and a close sound BUT Taylor has only been good
IMO since about 2000. Before that I wouldn't touch one.
Give the Alvarez Masterworks series a try if you get yourself in the
market again. The Masterworks are the "M" models. The MD is a dread,
the "FD" is fusion and so on. (oh yeah - copy paste)
http://www.alvarezgtr.com/products.php
Alvarez Masterworks
Alvarez Fusion Series
Alvarez Professional Series
Alvarez Artist Series
Alvarez Regent Series
Alvarez Traditional Series
The Masterworks are solid wood guitars and they really do sound sweet.
My biggest problem with Taks is that I can never tell what something
is because I don't know their numbering system. It drives me
nuts.......
Pepe Papon
I got the TNV360s. It's one of The Nashville models.
--
~ Seth Jackson
MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Danny T
Well, if its the Nashville model it must be good ;-)
fig000
I waited until the conversation ended so I could try to get the
most out of a discusion between people who understand the business.
I think I'd be safe in saying that there is no one right answer.
One person on another group told me that I'd never be able to get my
music to a publisher without having a contact there who would receive
it. I get the impression now that this is only partially true.
I guess my best bet is to study the industry and my options. I'll
be sure to read the book mentioned in an earlier post. And I'm not
against trying to market my music myself on sites like CD baby. I just
didn't realize this was a viable option. In the book publishing world
self-publishing is not considered a good option.
Anyway, I think that my original question (can you send out a raw
guitar and voice to pitch your songs or do they need to be radio
ready) doesn't have one answer. I think you for your advice.
On a side note, I do have a Taylor. It was expensive but it really
is one the best acoustic guitar I've ever heard. I do a lot of
fingerpicking and its sound is really sweet for that kind of playing.
But it also deals well with the snappy attach of flatpicking. I've
been playing a lot of bendy blues on it and the sound is as rich as an
electric.
I haven't tried takemines but the Taylor really is a wonderful
guitar.
Fig000
> Well, if its the Nashville model it must be good ;-)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Danny T
No doubt that Taylors are nice!
Good luck to you on your music publishing. Keep my url:
http://www.sandycovepublishing.com
You can grab the copyright forms off the site if you need them. There
are a few helpful things there as well and on http://www.demosmasters.com
as well.
If you wouldn't mind, I could use some tips on book publishing if you
have the time. I have a book nearly done and need to start promotions.
Its a real life adventure thing about a 5 year sailing trip I did. Any
advice would be great.... Thanks :-)
Rick Paul
news:e422e350-f08d-4018...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> And I'm not
> against trying to market my music myself on sites like CD baby. I just
> didn't realize this was a viable option. In the book publishing world
> self-publishing is not considered a good option.
Whether it is a good option or not depends on what you have to offer and
what you're trying to achieve with it. I think that is true of the book
publishing world, too. Sure, you're not likely to get a best seller list
entry from a self-published book. That takes getting to sales volumes and
distribution channels that simply aren't likely to be realistic for the
self-publisher in most cases (super rich self-publishers being potential
exceptions since they probably have deep enough pockets to deal with issues
like needed inventory levels on their own).
On the other hand, if you have a very special purpose book that will only
interest hard core devotees of a certain subject matter, your market may be
small enough that the volume of demand isn't likely to need deep pockets,
and most big publishers won't be interested anyway because there isn't
enough business for them. That is the case where self-publishing,
especially via on-demand services (e.g. Lulu.com) could make perfect sense.
(Check out Lulu's all-time bestseller list at
http://www.lulu.com/browse/stats.php?fType=topSellers to get an idea of the
type of books people are buying on that site. Hint: It's not the sort of
stuff you typically see on national best seller lists.) Of course, then you
also need to handle the marketing a publisher might typically do, but, if
you know your market well enough, you may already know the people who are
part of it, too, and tight circles could also help facilitating
word-of-mouth marketing once you get to a few influential individuals.
The key is knowing your market and how to reach it. If your market is
small, that may not be so hard, and may be something you can do on your own.
If your potential market is huge, you may be able to get started on your
own, but probably need help to get anywhere close to your maximum market
potential as few individuals have the resources to reach the masses. Of
course, that doesn't mean you can't start with some subset of those masses.
Rick
--
=======================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Web: www.RickPaul.info
MySpace: www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
=======================================
Pepe Papon
<neilne...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think I'd be safe in saying that there is no one right answer.
>One person on another group told me that I'd never be able to get my
>music to a publisher without having a contact there who would receive
>it. I get the impression now that this is only partially true.
It's not nearly as hard to get a song to a publisher as people make it
out to be. Just do your homework, find out the name of the right
person in the publishing company, call up and act professional.
That won't always get your song heard, but quite often, they'll accept
your submission. Also, there are countless pitch-to-publisher
opportunities sponsored by various songwriter organizations and PROs.
Gill.Sm...@googlemail.com
> I'd bet your demos are about as good as many main stream distributed
> music. If you had gone a short step further and put a singer in common
> on your songs and had a contract with him/her, instead of just paying
> for a demo singer, you could have sold those CD's and over time you
> would have made at least something back on your investment.
Excuse my butting-in but would expand on your 'singer in common'
idea.
Danny T
I just meant that if you had one singer on all your songs - The singer
could have been lead on some songs and back up on another but if there
was one singer in common the CD could be sold as an artist CD.
The difference between a demo and master these days is so slim that
99% of the end user would not know the difference at all.
The moral is that writers/producers have to stop confusing art with
product. Art, by nature is never finished, its only abandoned. Product
is something someone will buy. If you want to make money from your
music, put it on a CD and sell it! If it's not perfect, well, welcome
to the world of recording music.
Gill.Sm...@googlemail.com
> I just put out a little query for songs about a month ago and I am
> still opening packages that came in. Between my wife and I we've
> listened to nearly 600 songs this month.
For those who missed it first time around, want to run it by us
again. . .
Danny T
Run what? I don't know what you mean
Gill.Sm...@googlemail.com
I meant as in run the query by us again.
Actually, I thought 'run something by somebody' was an Americanism!
Too hip for my own good, man.
Danny T
Oh, actually I should have understood then. I'm actually done looking.
Sorry but I am one who only takes songs that I need and WILL use -
something to do with morality....... :-)
From time to time I need something and when I do I'll post it. Sorry
you didn't see it but really I need so little that (and I hate to say
it this way) the chances of me using a song are about 1 in 300.
WHen I do need songs though, I am usually looking or songs in the
country vein of things or christmas music and christian music. If I
get a good TROP ROCK song I usually grab it up no matter what and
record it myself - you never know :-)