Grand Piano Rim Materials
Rory...@justice.x400.gc.ca
range. My local dealer is trying to get me to buy a Boston GP-178.
According to the Steinway website, the rib on this piano is made of laminated
Phillipine mahogany, which is not mahogany, but either Red Lauan or Tanguile.
Apparently, these are not very hard as hardwoods go and are utility woods
used in inexpensive furniture and trim. I understand that woodworkers do not
use them for decorative purposes. Should I be concerned about the
mid-to-long term structural integrity of a Boston piano (after all, the rim
seems to be kind of important to keeping the whole thing together) and/or
about the durability of the finish? Does anyone know which Phillipine
mahogany Steinway is using (Red Lauan or Tanguile)? What are considered to
be good materials for making rims and why? Thanks.
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A440A
mahogany Steinway is using (Red Lauan or Tanguile)? What are considered to
be good materials for making rims and why<
Greetings,
The Boston is made by Kawai, not Steinway.
Steinway(New York) doesn't use mahogany to make their rims, they build their
rims out of maple.
I don't know, but others might, what the longevity of these pianos is going
to be. I don't think that is the main consideration, but rather, the quality
of the assembly and design. On these counts, Kawai is a good brand.
The difference between the harder maple and the softer mahogany is that the
maple is more difficult to work with, thus more expensive to produce. The
harder, denser rim is, imho, responsible for the better tonal qualities found
in the instruments built with them, i.e. Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, and
perhaps Knabe and some of the other grand old American classics.
Regards,
Ed Foote
Precision Piano Works
Nashville, Tenn. USA
pTooner
Rory...@justice.x400.gc.ca wrote:
> I'm thinking of selling my upright and buying a grand in the 5.5 to 6 foot
> range. My local dealer is trying to get me to buy a Boston GP-178.
> According to the Steinway website, the rib on this piano is made of laminated
> Phillipine mahogany, which is not mahogany, but either Red Lauan or Tanguile.
> Apparently, these are not very hard as hardwoods go and are utility woods
> used in inexpensive furniture and trim. I understand that woodworkers do not
> use them for decorative purposes. Should I be concerned about the
> mid-to-long term structural integrity of a Boston piano (after all, the rim
> seems to be kind of important to keeping the whole thing together) and/or
> about the durability of the finish? Does anyone know which Phillipine
> mahogany Steinway is using (Red Lauan or Tanguile)? What are considered to
> be good materials for making rims and why? Thanks.
>
Did you know that the large mouth bass is not a member of the bass family? If I
recall correctly, it's a perch. Anyway, no lauan is not a mahogany. On the
other hand, mahogany is not a hard wood anyway. Although you say in your first
statement that the "rib" is made of phillipine mahogany the rest of your post
leads me to believe you are really talking about the rim. If that is the case,
let me put your mind at rest. Rim failures are not something to be worried
about. Many factors determine long term reliability and the Boston is too new to
really say for sure. Logic would say that Steinway draws excellent designs and
Kawai builds quality construction. I don't really like Bostons myself, but I
would have no concerns about them lasting at least as well as any other asian
piano.
IMO good asian pianos last just as long as any for a first run. My concern is
that they are much more difficult to rebuild when that time comes. The same
manufacturing techniques that make them so consistent are not available to the
rebuilder. Having said that I think I should say that I don't rebuild myself. I
am basically recording observations and second hand information in that regard.
There are a couple of people on here who operate rebuilding businesses and if
they disagree I would be interested in hearing about it.
Gerry
"Bitch set me up."
> - M. Barry,
> Mayor of Washington, DC
yoshizaki
than maple, according to a Kawai technician. I checked the species of the
wood in a book about wood, but matoa was not listed in the book, so I don't
know exactly what kind.
Kawai uses matoa on its top of the line EX grand as well.
Rory...@justice.x400.gc.ca wrote in message
<74s25h$b5t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I'm thinking of selling my upright and buying a grand in the 5.5 to 6 foot
>range. My local dealer is trying to get me to buy a Boston GP-178.
>According to the Steinway website, the rib on this piano is made of
laminated
>Phillipine mahogany, which is not mahogany, but either Red Lauan or
Tanguile.
> Apparently, these are not very hard as hardwoods go and are utility woods
>used in inexpensive furniture and trim. I understand that woodworkers do
not
>use them for decorative purposes. Should I be concerned about the
>mid-to-long term structural integrity of a Boston piano (after all, the rim
>seems to be kind of important to keeping the whole thing together) and/or
>about the durability of the finish? Does anyone know which Phillipine
>mahogany Steinway is using (Red Lauan or Tanguile)? What are considered to
>be good materials for making rims and why? Thanks.
>
Delwin D Fandrich
> .... According to the Steinway website, the rib on this piano is made of
> laminated
> Phillipine mahogany, which is not mahogany, but either Red Lauan or Tanguile.
> Apparently, these are not very hard as hardwoods go and are utility woods
> used in inexpensive furniture and trim. I understand that woodworkers do not
> use them for decorative purposes. Should I be concerned about the
> mid-to-long term structural integrity of a Boston piano (after all, the rim
> seems to be kind of important to keeping the whole thing together) and/or
> about the durability of the finish? Does anyone know which Phillipine
> mahogany Steinway is using (Red Lauan or Tanguile)? What are considered to
> be good materials for making rims and why? Thanks.
----------------------------
Woods such as the deliberately mis-named Philippine mahogany are use in piano
rims because they are extremely easy to bend. They has no other qualifying
characteristic. Well, that and they are cheap. Other Asian piano builders use
the term "Select Hardwood" to describe the wood they use -- a euphemism that I
find even more offensive. Lauan is one name for these woods. Pink Meranti is
another. There are others.
Pianos such as Steinway, Baldwin, Walter, etc. use hard maple in their rims. It
is one of the functions of the piano rim to provide not just structural support
to the piano soundboard, but acoustical support as well. In general, the more
massive the piano rim, the easier it will be to get good sustain out of the
soundboard system. There are ways to achieve reasonable sustain even when Select
Hardwood is used in the rim, but it comes at a cost. The soundboard can be made
thicker and a bit stiffer. This usually means that the hammers will have to be
made a bit more massive and harder. There is a cost to be paid in the tone
quality of the piano. These pianos will often not have quite the dynamic range
and the tone quality will often be just a bit harder than that of their high-end
competitor.
Another potential drawback is that it is somewhat more difficult to replace the
soundboard in one of these pianos. This may not ever be a problem for you. It
depends on your age -- how young you are -- I guess, and on how long you intend
to keep the piano. I suspect that not many of these pianos will be rebuilt. The
cost of doing so will probably exceed their value. As of now our repair shop is
declining work on grand pianos using "Select Hardwood" rims. We have done
several and the results have been far from satisfactory.
However, none of this means that you should not consider purchasing a piano using
one of these rims. Their initial cost is generally lower than that of their
high-end competitors. And, no, the rim will not fall apart on you. The finish
will not fall off. What will happen is that the tone will deteriorate just a bit
faster than it will on the high-end piano. But, this time period is measured in
years, not months. Some of these pianos -- and I'm not referring to just
Boston's here, but pianos using Select Hardwood rims generally -- have excellent
track records, others do not. Piano manufacturers such as Yamaha and Kawai have
learned to use these materials quite effectively. So have several of the Korean
manufacturers, though some of them are still learning.
Kawai has earned a reputation for building decent pianos that hold up reasonably
well over the years. There is no reason to expect that this will not also hold
true with the Boston pianos.
My standard advise for prospective piano purchasers is to pay attention to your
ears and your fingers. In the end, it's the music that matters, not the features
or the material used in the rim. So, shop around. Select several pianos that
you are interested in. Spend some time with them. And by that I mean several
hours with each one, not just a few minutes. If any dealer objects to making
that kind of time available to you, shop somewhere else. You're probably going
to have to live with this decision for a long time. Don't be rushed into making
it. Good luck.
Regards,
Del
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Designer & Builder
Hoquiam, Washington USA
VOCE88
>Phillipine mahogany, which is not mahogany, but either Red Lauan or Tanguile.
> Apparently, these are not very hard as hardwoods go and are utility woods
If you meant the rim, this is true. The problem with using softer woods in the
design of the rim is stability.
A softer wood IS easier to craft. That is where the advantages end, though.
Remember, that what makes a piano go out of tune is the shifting of all of the
wooden parts, due to changes in humidity and temperature. Well, the rim ( whose
job it is to push back on the soundboard to keep "crown" ) that is made of
softer wood will move more with these changes. This will limit the life of the
piano in any kind of stressful situation.
Hope this helps.
Richard Galassini
Cunningham Piano CO
1 800 394 1117
A440A
>>Well, the rim ( whose
job it is to push back on the soundboard to keep "crown" ) that is made of
softer wood will move more with these changes.<<
Greetings,
Hmmm, There is some room for debate on this point. I tune quite a few
pianos that are often tuned every day, ( studios), and have noticed that the
Yamaha pianos don't exhibit climate induced tuning changes any more than the
Steinways. I am not so sure that the softer rim is responsible for increased
variability in the tuning.
If we are to assume that soundboard expansion/contraction is the reason for
humidity related pitch changes, then it seems logical that a rim which "gives"
more will transmit less pressure changes to the strings than the stiffer rim
which forces the soundboard to expand or contract more, ( causing the attendant
pitch changes with it).
As possible evidence of this, two pianos I see often are Chickerings that
have their soundboards connected to a separate inner rim which is much more
flexible than normal,( being attached to the heavier outer rim via a connection
at the bottom of the rims). These two pianos seems to be less affected by the
seasonal changes than most.
I also noticed on these Chickerings that the soundboards approached
almost a flat condition when strung, regardless of how much downbearing was
there before the stringing process began. ( I have also learned that on these
Chickerings, it is important to avoid excessive downbearing angles, since it is
easy to produce negative bearing if you do).
Frank Weston
The durability of the rim should be low on your list of considerations. A
piano of reasonable quality will outlast you by many years, no matter what
wood is used in the rim.
Since you intend to play the piano, what you should be worried about is how
it sounds. In my experience one of the prime, if not the prime attribute
which determines the quality of piano sound is the massiveness (thickness
and density of materials) size and structural integrity of the rim. It
might even be reasonable to sell pianos by the pound, since weight
correlates almost directly to rim mass. If you want the extremes in this
category, you have to go with M&H, Knabe, Steinway, Walter, Baldwin.
On the other hand, if you like the sound of the Boston, the fact that the
rim is made of "utility" wood should not discourage you.
Frank Weston
Rory...@justice.x400.gc.ca wrote in article
<74s25h$b5t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> I'm thinking of selling my upright and buying a grand in the 5.5 to 6
foot
> range. My local dealer is trying to get me to buy a Boston GP-178.
> According to the Steinway website, the rib on this piano is made of
laminated
> Phillipine mahogany, which is not mahogany, but either Red Lauan or
Tanguile.
> Apparently, these are not very hard as hardwoods go and are utility
woods
> used in inexpensive furniture and trim. I understand that woodworkers do
not
> use them for decorative purposes. Should I be concerned about the
> mid-to-long term structural integrity of a Boston piano (after all, the
rim
> seems to be kind of important to keeping the whole thing together) and/or
> about the durability of the finish? Does anyone know which Phillipine
> mahogany Steinway is using (Red Lauan or Tanguile)? What are considered
to
> be good materials for making rims and why? Thanks.
>
Mark Mandell
On 12/11/98, Gerry a.k.a. p(Tooner) wrote:
<My concern is that they are much more difficult to rebuild when that
time comes>
No, that shouldn't be the case at all because these pianos shouldn't be
treated fundamentally any different than high end pianos are(i.e.,
Steinway, M&H, etc.). The real argument then would be whether the time
and money invested in the rebuild could really be justified if there's
only a modest improvement in the overall quality with a below average
piano. I mean it's pretty unlikely the average rebuilder would get
overly enthusiastic about rebuilding a Pearl Rivers model! OTOH it might
be suitable for an apprentice rebuilder just to acquire the experience.
Mark Mandell
Dave Zappa
>
>
> Pianos such as Steinway, Baldwin, Walter, etc. use hard maple in their rims.
An excellent response to the original question Del. I wanted to ask if
you are referring to "hard rock" maple in regards to Baldwin. Their
specs (as I'm sure you know) are poplar outer and "select" maple inner.
Certainly harder than luan, but not exactly rock maple. Also, the specs
on the Boston piano (and I'm doing this from memory so tell me if I'm
wrong) say the rim is a combination of select hardwood and beech. Is
beech somewhat harder than luan, but not as hard as maple?
Just curious
Dave
--
Retail salesperson formerly representing 17 different acoustic &
digital piano brands. Support your local service-oriented dealer.
Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the
opinions of my employer.
To reply by e-mail please remove the "SPAMTHIS" from my address.
Dave Zappa
Delwin D Fandrich
VOCE88 wrote:
> .... A softer wood IS easier to craft. That is where the advantages end, though.
>
> Remember, that what makes a piano go out of tune is the shifting of all of the
> wooden parts, due to changes in humidity and temperature. Well, the rim ( whose
> job it is to push back on the soundboard to keep "crown" ) that is made of
> softer wood will move more with these changes. This will limit the life of the
> piano in any kind of stressful situation.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Richard Galassini
> Cunningham Piano CO
> 1 800 394 1117
---------------------------------------------
It is correct that the only advantage of Select Hardwood piano rims is that they
are easier to craft. Well, Select Hardwood is also somewhat cheaper to purchase.
So I guess that's two advantages.
And, while I am certainly not a fan of Select Hardwood as a material for grand
piano rims, I must also say that the rim does very little, if anything, to support
soundboard crown. This long-held belief refers to the so-called "arch" effect in
which the crowned soundboard is thought of as an arch as found in Roman
architecture. For an arch to work both the support and the arch itself must be
made out of an non-compressible material. Or the radius of the arch must be small
enough relative to its length that the compressibility of the material is of no
consequence. This is not the case with the piano soundboard. Wood is a fairly
compressible material, especially across grain.
Crown is lost for a variety of reasons that are way to involved to explain here.
In a compression-crowned soundboard crown dissipates as a result of the natural
phenomena called compression set. Wood fibers under a state of constant and
excessive compression gradually deform. As this happens the across-grain
compression that formed the crown in the first place dissipates and crown is lost.
If the wood that a piano rim is made of is properly seasoned, and if the rim is
properly stabilized after bending, and if the rim is adequately braced, then the
specific type of wood used will have very little to do with tuning stability.
Tone quality is a whole other issue...
pTooner
Mark Mandell wrote:
> On 12/11/98, Gerry a.k.a. p(Tooner) wrote:
>
> <My concern is that they are much more difficult to rebuild when that
> time comes>
>
> No, that shouldn't be the case at all because these pianos shouldn't be
> treated fundamentally any different than high end pianos are(i.e.,
> Steinway, M&H, etc.). The real argument then would be whether the time
> and money invested in the rebuild could really be justified if there's
> only a modest improvement in the overall quality with a below average
> piano. I mean it's pretty unlikely the average rebuilder would get
> overly enthusiastic about rebuilding a Pearl Rivers model!
I don't think I understand. We were talking about Kawai and Boston. I
don't think you can reasonably describe either as a "below average piano"
and I sure don't know where the "Pearl Rivers" bit comes from. If by chance
you are talking about the Yamaha chinese factory products, I don't think
they do or will build grands at all. As to your first statement - I said I
wasn't a rebuilder personnaly. Are you?
Gerry
Dave Zappa
> If by chance
> you are talking about the Yamaha chinese factory products, I don't think
> they do or will build grands at all.
> Gerry
Gerry:
I bet you a 6 pack that in the next 18 months Yamaha will be shipping a
grand into the US built in China. No insider information, just a hunch.
pTooner
Dave Zappa wrote:
> pTooner wrote:
>
> > If by chance
> > you are talking about the Yamaha chinese factory products, I don't think
> > they do or will build grands at all.
> > Gerry
>
> Gerry:
>
> I bet you a 6 pack that in the next 18 months Yamaha will be shipping a
> grand into the US built in China. No insider information, just a hunch.
>
> Dave
>
> --
>
Okay, Dave, you're on! I prefer JW Dundee amber.
Gerry
Delwin D Fandrich
Re: Baldwin rims. Originally, both were maple. Then, for a time Baldwin used
maple inner rims and poplar outer rims. It is my understanding that they are now
back to maple for both inner and outer rims.
Re: Boston rims. I'm not that familiar with the rim construction of the Boston
piano.
Re: Beech rims. While not quite the same as maple, beech is a very good material
for piano rims. The idea is just to get them as stiff and and as massive as
possible. Within reason, of course. I'm sure steel rims could be built, but I'm
not sure I'd want one. As to a combination of beech and Select Hardwoods, it
would depend on how they were used. A beech inner rim and a Select Hardwood outer
rim would be some better than having both made of Select Hardwood.
Regards,
Del
---------------------------------------
Dave Zappa wrote:
> Delwin D Fandrich wrote:
>
> > Pianos such as Steinway, Baldwin, Walter, etc. use hard maple in their rims.
>
> An excellent response to the original question Del. I wanted to ask if
> you are referring to "hard rock" maple in regards to Baldwin. Their
> specs (as I'm sure you know) are poplar outer and "select" maple inner.
> Certainly harder than luan, but not exactly rock maple. Also, the specs
> on the Boston piano (and I'm doing this from memory so tell me if I'm
> wrong) say the rim is a combination of select hardwood and beech. Is
> beech somewhat harder than luan, but not as hard as maple?
>
> Just curious
Delwin D Fandrich
Mark Mandell wrote:
> On 12/11/98, Gerry a.k.a. p(Tooner) wrote:
>
> <My concern is that they are much more difficult to rebuild when that
> time comes>
>
> No, that shouldn't be the case at all because these pianos shouldn't be
> treated fundamentally any different than high end pianos are(i.e.,
> Steinway, M&H, etc.).
I wish that were the case. Unfortunately, we have had several of these
(Internationaly known brand) pianos in our shop for soundboard replacements.
They are much more difficult to work with and they are much less musically
rewarding upon completion.
> The real argument then would be whether the time
> and money invested in the rebuild could really be justified if there's
> only a modest improvement in the overall quality with a below average
> piano. I mean it's pretty unlikely the average rebuilder would get
> overly enthusiastic about rebuilding a Pearl Rivers model! OTOH it might
> be suitable for an apprentice rebuilder just to acquire the experience.
>
> Mark Mandell
You'll have to include many pianos much further up the food chain than Pearl
River in this list.
l...@epix.net
Delwin D Fandrich <pianob...@olynet.com>
wrote:
>
>
I must also say that the rim does very little, if
anything, to support
> Del
> Delwin D Fandrich
> Piano Designer & Builder
> Hoquiam, Washington USA
>
>
Well, that blows the tension resonator defense
that I wasted about two hours on. . .
George
PS: Quite unscientifically, I've observed that
virtually every piano, both new and old, whose
sound I loved, had an exceedingly massive rim.
Old Chickerings and M&H's seem to approach 5"
across, and those have always sounded the best to
me. . .
Cc88m
>Well, that blows the tension resonator defense
>that I wasted about two hours on. . .
>
I don't understand; if the resonator supports the compression, then
the rim doesn't, so you agree with Del, not disagree. Am I wrong?
C. C. Chang
l...@epix.net
19981217213320.07764.00001342@ngol08.
aol.com>,
I can't really agree or disagree, as I lack the
qualifications.
I was referring to a protracted argument I had
with Gerry a few weeks back on the efficacy of M&
H tension resonators (all my theories were based
on the assumption that a big part of the rim's job
was to resist expansion of the soundboard, and
that the rods would aid in that). I eventually gave
up on it. . .
Piano construction is an exceedingly fascinating
topic though. Maybe Del should write a book for
people like us with an intense curiosity in this
area. I'd be happy to design and illustrate it. . .
There's a woeful lack of a really good book on
piano technology for the layman.
George