Is This How Miles Solos Over "Blue in Green"?
Slick
http://www.csus.edu/indiv/g/garnera/jazz_piano/blue_in_green_scales.pdf
I thought the whole idea of modal jazz was to simplify to one scale?
Des Higgins
That is not a modal tune; It is just a tune with lots of nice chord
changes. The tune on Kind of Blue that most people refer to as modal,
is "So What" and even on that the trumpet solo is probably not played
in a very modal manner but just using lots of dorian and blues scale
lines. I just noticed this is cross referenced to r.m.m.piano.
(makes mental note to self to not bullshit about music theory in front
of piano players)
Rick Stone
news:9ea75d8d-290f-49ad...@y7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> Like this?
>
> http://www.csus.edu/indiv/g/garnera/jazz_piano/blue_in_green_scales.pdf
> I thought the whole idea of modal jazz was to simplify to one scale?
>
Yes, but as "Slick" pointed out, "Blue in Green" is not a modal tune. The
scale choices were the same one's I'd use and sound like the same ones Miles
(and many other players) use on that tune.
You'll notice that several of those scales come from Jazz Melodic Minor. I
like to use this tune in particular when teaching students how those modes
work since the tempo is slow and you have PLENTY of time on each change.
You may also find it useful to think about which minor each chord derives
from. That's the Pat Martino approach and it works really well. In Pat's
world, the line between Dorian and Jazz Melodic Minor sort of blurs and he
plays freely around the minor tonality, sometimes using the m7 and other
times the M7 as a function of his melodic line.
In Minor Conversion a Major chord uses its "relative" minor, Altered
Dominants use the minor a half-step above, Lydian Dominants use the minor on
the 5th.
There's really only ONE type of diminished scale which fits over Dominant &
Diminished chords depending on how you start it, so it's easiest to just
think the diminished up a half-step (since that's where you'd place your
Melodic Minor for an Altered Dominant), or you can think "diminished" from
any of the other chord tones (3rd, 5th or b7th).
So in the context of Blue In Green it becomes:
Gm Bbm Dm Abm
Cm F#o Gm Bbm
Dm Fm Am Dm
Pretty simple really. You get a lot of pretty colors and don't need to be a
genius to do it.
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: http://www.rickstone.com
Visit me on MySpace at: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
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Watch my videos on YouTube at: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
polymod
"Rick Stone" <rick...@rickstone.com> wrote in message
news:pP6Yl.429$P5....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
This is the best post I've seen here in ages.
Thanks for bringing this ng back to earth :-)
Poly
Joey Goldstein
> Like this?
>
>
> http://www.csus.edu/indiv/g/garnera/jazz_piano/blue_in_green_scales.pdf
I've lifted any of the solos off of that recording but when I play over
that tune those are the default chord-scale relationships that I use as
well.
But that doesn't mean that I stick only to those notes or those scales.
There's lots of other sounds that can work too. Those chord-scales are
just a starting point and should be thought of as a sort of safe haven.
> I thought the whole idea of modal jazz was to simplify to one scale?
As Des said, it's not really a modal tune.
But the whole modal jazz thing branched off shortly after the So
What/Impressions/Milestones era into a type of composition where each
new chord was not necessarily linked to the previous chords by key
relationships, so each new chord was sort of a new key or mode unto itself.
Blue In Green is not really the best example of that type of pan modal
tune either, because it's mostly in the key of D minor, but it's usually
approached best if it's treated as if it is one of those types of tunes.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Paul
> "Slick" <drsmith...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Yes, "So What" is more the modal piece of that album.
I'm finding there is simply no substitute for picking
out the scales yourself, and trying out chromatic passing
tones transitioning from one chord to the next.
M
Good post. Thanks!
Dan Adler
Turns out we already had this exact same discussion long ago...
Paul
>
> -Danhttp://danadler.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ah! Wheel in the sky keeps on turning!
Very funny, that was like 7 years ago.
I think Miles deserves co-credit, because he
planted the seed idea of the song into Evans, with
the first 2 chords: Gm, A+
pmfan57
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Ah! Wheel in the sky keeps on turning!
>
> Very funny, that was like 7 years ago.
>
> I think Miles deserves co-credit, because he
> planted the seed idea of the song into Evans, with
> the first 2 chords: Gm, A+
I have no problem with him getting co credit. But he took full credit.
Paul
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Ah! Wheel in the sky keeps on turning!
>
> > Very funny, that was like 7 years ago.
>
> > I think Miles deserves co-credit, because he
> > planted the seed idea of the song into Evans, with
> > the first 2 chords: Gm, A+
>
> I have no problem with him getting co credit. But he took full credit.
If i remember correctly, Miles had credit for his music
taken when he played for other band leaders, and so
continued the tradition when he was the leader. Ellington
and Strayhorn was the same situation.
But yeah, i hate this. Especially for things where
the bandleader who popularizes a tune, gets credit for
writing it! Ridiculous!
Paul
> "Slick" <drsmith...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Ok, I see how you did this minor conversion.
And i tried soloing with the regular chords, and the
minor conversion chords, and i got better results with
the regular scales on the link i provided. Did you specify
the type of minor scale for each chord in your "simplified"
minor conversion above?
For the A diminished Whole-tone scale, which is
used for the A7#9#5, i think it sounds better with a
natural 5th (an E in this case) in the scale. But
i'm sure it depends on the song, and the artist.
I enjoyed your jam with Barry Harris. That's
a true Thelonious Monk connection! I'd like to hear
your version of Round Midnight and How Insensitive.
Rick Stone
"Paul" <quill...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:efe28bda-4eec-4667...@z20g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> Ok, I see how you did this minor conversion.
>
> And i tried soloing with the regular chords, and the
>minor conversion chords, and i got better results with
>the regular scales on the link i provided. Did you specify
>the type of minor scale for each chord in your "simplified"
>minor conversion above?
>
> For the A diminished Whole-tone scale, which is
>used for the A7#9#5, i think it sounds better with a
>natural 5th (an E in this case) in the scale. But
>i'm sure it depends on the song, and the artist.
>
> I enjoyed your jam with Barry Harris. That's
>a true Thelonious Monk connection! I'd like to hear
>your version of Round Midnight and How Insensitive.
Like I said, you have to LISTEN to which 7th to use. Have you heard Pat
Martino play this tune? What I described is pretty much exactly what Pat
does.
For Altered Dominiants and Lydian Dominants you'd obviously be using Jazz
Melodic Minor because that's the scale that those chords come from. The
Minor 7th chords obviously have b7s, so they lean towards Dorian (Although
like I said, when Pat plays this stuff, he mixes those two sounds pretty
freely). It really boils down to being able to play good lines. Scales are
just a way of simplifying tonality to can be used to help you do that.
If you're hearing the A7 with an "E" in it, then you're obviously not
thinking "altered" (maybe just a straight "Dominant-Diminished?") That's
okay if you hear it that way, but it's a distinction worth pointing out.
Even the line between Melodic Minor and Diminished and Whole-Tone can be
intentionally blurred though since the Melodic Minor scale actually CONTAINS
6 of the 8 notes of a Diminished scale, and 5 of the 6 notes of a Whole-Tone
scale. Dizzy plays a very cool lick based on Whole-Tone over the 2 Melodic
Minors in "A Night in Tunisia." The chords are D-69 (D Melodic Minor) and
Eb9 (Bb Melodic Minor) which each contain part of the Whole-Tone scale "Db
Eb F G A B" so Dizzy plays this descending Whole-Tone line in 3rds with
chromatics over the top of both chords. It's really easy once you know the
trick, but it sounds very hip! That's the cool thing about symmetrical
harmony.
Rick Stone
> If i remember correctly, Miles had credit for his music
>taken when he played for other band leaders, and so
>continued the tradition when he was the leader. Ellington
>and Strayhorn was the same situation.
>
> But yeah, i hate this. Especially for things where
>the bandleader who popularizes a tune, gets credit for
>writing it! Ridiculous!
It seems to have been kind of the unspoken rule back then. If you wrote
something when you were playing in somebody elses band, it was kind of like
"work for hire." Jackie McClean wrote "Dig" but it was originally called
"Donna" and on the original recording I've got, that's the way it was called
(and Jackie was credited). Later (when Jackie was no longer in the band?)
the title was changed to "Dig" and Miles is credited as the composer. Then
it could also have been that Miles simply bought the tune from him
(remember, back then lots of guys had drug problems and such, and a little
cash in hand may have seemed more valuable at the time than the abstract
concept of copyright ownership)
Then there were also situations where tunes were given as a gift. That's my
understanding of how Miles was credited with writing the "old" Milestones
(which was actually penned by John Lewis). And I'm pretty sure I remember
John Lewis mentioning this in a radio interview some years back.
Joey Goldstein
Just to add to what Rick is saying, because he knows all this stuff
already...
Another scale that works nicely on dom7#5#9 chords which does happen to
contain the P5th is:
1 b2 b3 3 5 b6 b7
I don't think there's any commonly used name for this scale, but it's
the 3rd "mode" of the harmonic major scale.
Eg. On A7#5#9, use F harmonic major (F G A Bb C Db E F) starting on A.
It's a cool sound because there's no avoid notes.
It yields 3 available tensions, b9 #9 and b13, and there are no avoid notes.
For me, the genesis of this scale was as follows...
I was taught that as a general rule the default chord-scale for any V7
chord in a minor key should be harmonic minor from the 4th of the chord
(aka Mix b2b6 from the root of the chord).
Eg. On A7, as V7 in the key of D minor use:
A Bb C# D Eb F G A (aka D harm min from A)
This chord-scale relationship yields 2 available tensions, b9 and b13,
and 1 avoid note, 4.
I was also taught another general rule that whenever a b9 is appropriate
on a dom7 chord the #9 will almost always also be appropriate. So we
added #9/b3 to the Mix b2b6 scale:
1 b2 b3 3 4 5 b6 b7 1
A Bb C C# D E F G A
That's an 8-note scale.
It yields the 3 tensions, b9 #9 and b13, and has 1 avoid note, D.
I don't believe it has a common name. I used to call it "A Mix
b2b6(add#2)". "A Phrygian (add3)" is another possibility.
On A7 it's the same pitch collection as the F6 "bebop scale", or what
Barry Harris calls the "F6 diminished scale". This is constructed by
mixing the tones of F6 with those of Gdim7, which amounts to adding a
chromatic passing tone to the F major scale between C and D.
F G A Bb C C# D E F
1 3 5 6 1 of F6
1 b3 b5 bb7 of Gdim7
If you run a series of 1/8 notes from a down beat starting on F A C or D
then you'll always have one of the chord tones of F6 on the beats with
the other notes, the notes of Gdim7, on the off beats. If you start on G
Bb Db or E you'll be outlining Gdim7 (aka Bbdim7, C#dim7 and/or Edim7).
It's important to realize that:
C7b9 = Edim7/C
and
A7b9 = C#dim7/A.
Also realize that F6 is the same chord as Dm7.
BH advocates using this scale over both chords in a V7b9-I progression
in F major as well as in a V7b9-Im7 progression in D minor.
If we omit the D from this scale, which is the only avoid note when
using this pitch collection on A7, then we're back to the same scale
that I was talking about when I started this post.
Hope that gives someone food for thought and for musical explorations.
Paul
> "Paul" <quiller...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:fbc4884d-3db2-4dec...@r37g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > If i remember correctly, Miles had credit for his music
> >taken when he played for other band leaders, and so
> >continued the tradition when he was the leader. Ellington
> >and Strayhorn was the same situation.
>
> > But yeah, i hate this. Especially for things where
> >the bandleader who popularizes a tune, gets credit for
> >writing it! Ridiculous!
>
> It seems to have been kind of the unspoken rule back then. If you wrote
> something when you were playing in somebody elses band, it was kind of like
> "work for hire." Jackie McClean wrote "Dig" but it was originally called
> "Donna" and on the original recording I've got, that's the way it was called
> (and Jackie was credited). Later (when Jackie was no longer in the band?)
> the title was changed to "Dig" and Miles is credited as the composer. Then
> it could also have been that Miles simply bought the tune from him
> (remember, back then lots of guys had drug problems and such, and a little
> cash in hand may have seemed more valuable at the time than the abstract
> concept of copyright ownership)
>
> Then there were also situations where tunes were given as a gift. That's my
> understanding of how Miles was credited with writing the "old" Milestones
> (which was actually penned by John Lewis). And I'm pretty sure I remember
> John Lewis mentioning this in a radio interview some years back.
>
Again, I enjoyed your jam with Barry Harris. That's
Rick Stone
> Again, I enjoyed your jam with Barry Harris. That's
>a true Thelonious Monk connection! I'd like to hear
>your version of Round Midnight and How Insensitive.
Thanks Paul. Which one do you mean? (the one on YouTube where I'm a much
younger man with a dark beard!!??)
I used to play "Round Midnight" a lot but don't think I ever recorded it
(maybe on a cassette at a gig or something, but there's so much of that
stuff that I wouldn't know where to look). Lately I've been liking "Monk's
Mood" a lot. I'll see if Ed wants to put the arrangement in JJG.