"Gray" (destination seasoned) Yamaha Pianos: Truth or bunk?
chris
determine quality and risk.
Regarding the whole idea of the letter from Yamaha, which I
would be glad to fax, I wonder if it was intending to
address "knock-offs", rather than legitamate sales, or if
the company is trying to hold onto its base of new sales.
Surely some relocate from humid areas to dry, and vice
versa. It seems that instruments are protected thru
humidifiers/damp chasers, if applied.
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Matt Miller
> It's not so much the outdoor climate as it is the indoor. I use forced-air
> HVAC like 99% of American households, and even with two humidifiers running
> 24 - 7 it's dry in the winter. A grey market piano in my house wouldn't
> hold up.
I don't agree that 99% of American households have HVAC. I live in
New Hampshire, and very few homes here have central (or any) AC. I am
familiar with several other northern areas of the US, and it is much the
same story in many other places (e.g. Northern PA, upstate NY, most
of Michigan, and I'm sure many more areas).
Now for a couple questions: what humidity level is ideal for a piano?
And at what point do you begin to worry about humidity fluctuations.
For example, my non-humidified/non-AC home in winter hangs in there
between 35-40% RH, but during the summer it can easily push
80%+.
I hope I don't find out I need to install central AC (although my wife
would be delighted).
- Matt
Rick Clark
>Regarding the whole idea of the letter from Yamaha, which I
>would be glad to fax, I wonder if it was intending to
>address "knock-offs", rather than legitamate sales, or if
>the company is trying to hold onto its base of new sales.
I believe Yamaha is trying to accomplish several things at once. I
don't think there's any question they are annoyed by gray market
pianos and would like to see them go away, strictly for business
reasons. But this doesn't make other technical arguments less valid.
IOW, their *need* to put down the wave of imports is one issue, but
their arguments and public statements as to why you should stay away
from them are essentially reasonable and based on real-world
instances. I would only accuse them of being a bit alarmist- but on
the other hand, people who have gotten bad gray market pianos have
gone to Yamaha U.S.A. for remedy, and found out that Yamaha U.S.A. is
not responsible for these used, non-U.S.A. pianos or stocking the
sometimes unique parts they might need. IOW, it's kind of like if
there were suddenly a wave of Ford Cortinas brought over from Europe,
then these new owners went to the local Ford dealers looking for parts
or service, which the USA Ford dealers are not equipped to service.
The outcome is predictable. The replacement parts they produce is
based on the anticipated needs of their client base. A sudden
unanticipated wave of used foriegn models with problems upsets the
apple cart.
So Yamaha has decided to spread the word, if you buy a gray market
piano, there might be serious problems and you are on your own. These
are true statements. OTOH, I have personally been witness to quite a
variety of lies coming out of the mouths of the gray market retailers,
such as the piano is "just like new", "perfect condition", or "exactly
the same as the US models" or "seasoned for destination is a lie".
Rick Clark
chris
pianos from Japan, honor a ten year Parts and Labor
warranty? The warranty is with his company, not Yamaha, so
I imagine it is only as good as the business is stable...
The company would then send out a qualified Yamaha
technician. Though that may not mean Yamaha employee.
Chris
Rick Clark
>Here's what I want to know: Can a retailer, who purchases
>pianos from Japan, honor a ten year Parts and Labor
>warranty? The warranty is with his company, not Yamaha, so
>I imagine it is only as good as the business is stable...
>
>The company would then send out a qualified Yamaha
>technician. Though that may not mean Yamaha employee.
I don't see any reason to fear such a dealer's warranty, except the
stability you mentioned and the far outside chance some catastrophe
will occur requiring the kind of parts that Yamaha will be refusing to
sell. But even if such an unlikely catastrophe did occur, the dealer
could always take the piano back and give you a different one.
Rick Clark
chris
actually put me more at ease. There is so much definitive
opinion and fear when asking about a large purchase, that I
question everything.
Thanks.
chris
I respect that in the small time that I have read this DG
that you have made very intelligent, thought out comments
that appear to based in strong experience. I am a novice
with pianos, and also this DG. Thank you for the summary
of my transactions with you.
I am gathering information, and questioning. With very
little money, and very little understanding of *who* to
trust, I am applying the shotgun approach to learning as
much as I can from *anyone* who will reply. I thought that
was a great feature of DGs.
Your input is very important, as well as anyone else who is
kind enough to reply.
And its the kindness that is appreciated.
..lets be careful out there.
chris
Thanks again for being willing to type out things easy
enough for me to grasp!
I'm curious, it seems that your experience in Dade county
left you with the impression that the pianos there actually
get *too* damp. I can understand that felt hates water,
and wood hates change.
How does your experience compare to the idea that Gray
pianos are too dry (which I thought was the critical issue
from Yamaha) in the USA. is it a very fine line on
seasoning and relative humidity?
If I'm overstepping technical toes, let me know.
chris
my above question with statements:
1. Grays have many problems from going wet to dry.
2. Some homes are actually too wet.
Q: Is it only the dryness that Grays are affected by, or is
it the variance of the wet/dry spectrum here?
Dave Zappa
news:06f57f7b...@usw-ex0110-075.remarq.com...
> Regarding the whole idea of the letter from Yamaha, which I
> would be glad to fax, I wonder if it was intending to
> address "knock-offs", rather than legitamate sales, or if
> the company is trying to hold onto its base of new sales.
>
I think it's a little of both. Yamaha knows there are many dealers who
advertise/sell these pianos as factory-endorsed or somehow "rebuilt". So
the letter is to advise consumers that Yamaha pianos not intended for sale
in North America carry some additional risk you don't generally have with
seasoned for NA pianos. And yes, they also want to maintain their base of
new piano sales.
> Surely some relocate from humid areas to dry, and vice
> versa. It seems that instruments are protected thru
> humidifiers/damp chasers, if applied.
It's not so much the outdoor climate as it is the indoor. I use forced-air
HVAC like 99% of American households, and even with two humidifiers running
24 - 7 it's dry in the winter. A grey market piano in my house wouldn't
hold up.
Dave
--
Retail salesperson formerly representing 17 different acoustic &
digital piano brands. Support your local service-oriented dealer.
Opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect the
opinions of my employer.
To reply by e-mail please remove the "SPAMTHIS" from my address.
b...@thepianosource.com
some that have been just fine, but many, too many, have not. Do what
you want but if you expect to get something at half price to be as
good as the original, I have a bridge to sell you.
piano...@spambotsmustdie.com (Rick Clark) wrote:
>chris <chris.b.fle...@lmco.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>Regarding the whole idea of the letter from Yamaha, which I
>>would be glad to fax, I wonder if it was intending to
>>address "knock-offs", rather than legitamate sales, or if
>>the company is trying to hold onto its base of new sales.
>
--
Bob Shapiro - - located in paradise (southwest Florida)
A retail salesperson dealing in major brands with years of
experience in retail,also college and armory promotions, etc.
Represented most major and minor brands in the past
Currently representing Yamaha,Kawai,Petrof,Kohler & Campbell,Samick,Technics.
For credentials and also for the answers to many of your questions please see
http://www.thepianosource.com
b...@thepianosource.com
This is assuming that you got it from a dealer who cares. Complaints I
get are that people bought the piano from a warehouse that no longer
exists, or from the back of a truck, or a store front in a older
shopping center that is gone or the dealer just plain refuses to do
anything as the piano is sold with either no warranty, a short one or
one that is written in such a way that it covers nothing. Caveat
Emptor is the controlling phrase.
Rick Clark
>Yes, the humidity where I live (FL) is high outside, but I
>question it inside. I wonder if the humidity maintenance
>system is recommended for any piano?
I did a one-year survey in Dade County, Florida of the indoor relative
humidity. I checked every house I went in. Of those houses that were
air conditioned every day of the year, the average indoor relative
humidity of most of them was either no different than average outdoor
(75%), or could be up to 25% less in the coldest homes that were very
well sealed and had an appropriate sized central air system.
One guy, an engineer, kept his home down about 62 degrees and managed
to maintain the humidity as low as 45% in summer- which is right for a
piano. It cost him a few hundred extra dollars a month in
electricity, but he was proud he had done it, and he did it
specifically for his piano.
Of the people who kept their homes more like 78 degrees, almost none
were really dry enough, and wavered up and down with the seasons. Some
people like myself who open the windows when it's cool enough have
wildly swinging humidity and often ungodly rust problems if they don't
have a humidity control system installed.
In Florida you will always be better off with a well-thought-out
system than without one. In some homes the pianos will become a
disaster without a system, whereas in others the damage is relatively
mild. Also, the dealers I have encountered seem to run the gamut from
being ignoramuses to downright hostile concerning Dampp-Chaser
systems. One dealer (coincidentally a gray market Yamaha dealer)
insisted unflinchingly they "make too much noise" and thus would
*never* recommend one- which is utter crap because they are totally
silent. Also ironic in light of all the rust to be found on what he
was selling. I don't know any dealer right now in my area where you
can get a proper humidity control system. At most they will sell
uncontrolled heating rods, or they sell nothing and know less. Be
forewarned. And technicians are not reliably better informed it seems.
I just saw a pinblock destroyed by an idiot tech who put exactly the
wrong rod in exactly the wrong place, and no humidistat to turn it
off. It would not have been possible for him to do worse.That's my
neighborhood anyhow.
The "Florida" set up I like to install in grands: 1. A wool string
cover 2. A 15 watt Dampp-Chaser rod under the string cover 3. A 50
watt rod under the soundboard (small to medium grands) 4. A 25 or 35
watt rod under the keybed 5. A humidistat that controls all 3 rods. In
your case, I would select the "50% humidity" humidistat, rather than
the usual 42% model, owing to the history of a gray market Yamaha. The
above costs about what the guy with the 62 degree house paid in one
month for electricity, but a Dampp-Chaser system's own electricity
consumption is tiny, about as much as a light bulb.
The one blessing of being in Florida is that you should have no need
for a system which includes a humidifier, which is an item that
requires maintenance. The system as described above requires no
maintenance other than to keep it plugged in.
Also, with a system as I described, you will need the piano tuned a
lot less over time, so there is a payback beyond the damage it
prevents.
Unfortunately, too many people in humid regions don't get a system
until after problems like rust have already set in.
Rick Clark
Larry Fletcher
>kind enough to reply.
>
>And its the kindness that is appreciated.
>
I wasn't trying to be unkind. Just to point these things out to you.
Larry Fletcher
Pianos, Inc.
Atlanta, GA
Dealer/Technician
Doing the work of three men..........Larry, Curly, and Moe.
b...@thepianosource.com
>
>The "Florida" set up I like to install in grands: 1. A wool string
>cover 2. A 15 watt Dampp-Chaser rod under the string cover 3. A 50
>watt rod under the soundboard (small to medium grands) 4. A 25 or 35
>watt rod under the keybed 5. A humidistat that controls all 3 rods. In
>your case, I would select the "50% humidity" humidistat, rather than
>the usual 42% model, owing to the history of a gray market Yamaha. The
>above costs about what the guy with the 62 degree house paid in one
>month for electricity, but a Dampp-Chaser system's own electricity
>consumption is tiny, about as much as a light bulb.
>
This is pretty much the system our techs recommend here in the sw
Florida. I still, however, really don't recommend the gray market
pianos unless someone is willing to accept them for what they are
which is simply older used pianos that may have been used a lot harder
than a similar aged piano in the US.
b...@thepianosource.com
>Chris,
>
>There is so much more at play with your situation than just whether or not a
>gray market Yamaha is a good piano or not. You are doing something that I see
>people do all the time - you haven't been getting the answer you wanted so you
>just keep asking the question until upi finally get the answer you wanted - and
>now you think you have gotten that answer from Rick so you are "at ease". Rick
>is absolutely correct in what he said to you in the post that finally put you
>at ease. Howver, he didn't comment on all the *other* issues involved in your
>situation, because you have gradually filtered out the parts that were giving
>you problems.
Well said and quite to the point.
Rick Clark
problem comes if you move them to a region that is too dry. They are
built for higher humidity and lived in higher humidty. If you move
them where it is too dry for them really serious problems can occur as
the wood dries out and shrinks.
If you consider only the wood seasoning issue, I think the climate of
Florida actually makes a pretty good match for the wood seasoning of
pianos intended for Japan. Throughout much of the U.S. that would not
be true. However, wood seasoning is just one issue, and it is an issue
that is hard to predict the outcome of.
It is a separate issue that both high humidity and *changing* humidity
such as in Florida are issues that take their damage toll on *any*
piano, regardless of how the woods are seasoned. I certainly see many
rusty gray market Yamahas coming out of Japan, as well as rusty
American pianos living in Florida. There is a whole series of other
problems caused by high humidity that can occur in any piano, too
numerous to go into. I prefer to focus on prevention (humidity
control). However, there are certain serious problems related to dry
conditions you will rarely or never find in pianos that have always
lived in high humidity regions like Florida.
Even worse than pianos living in always-humid or always-dry
circumstances are the ones that swing widely in humidty such as 5%
winters and 90% summers. Or pianos that live many years in, say, a
very humid region, then move to a very dry region- which is the fate
of many gray market pianos destined for the U.S.
Rick
Rick Clark
>1. Grays have many problems from going wet to dry.
Yes, but so can other pianos. But with grays the problems might be
intensified or more common because of the different kind of wood
seasoning which is less tolerant of shrinkage.
>2. Some homes are actually too wet.
Oh, absolutely. At least some degree of rust and other humidity
problems will come to exist in practically every Florida-living piano
that doesn't have special humidity control. In a % of these pianos the
damge will be minor. In the majority of them the damage will be
moderate to severe. The same thing must exist in other Southern U.S.
coastal areas, such as New Orleans, etc.
>Q: Is it only the dryness that Grays are affected by, or is
>it the variance of the wet/dry spectrum here?
Dryness will cause the biggest problems- not really an issue in
Florida. The variances in humid Florida (varies from "pretty humid" to
"really, really humid") are responsible for tuning instability mostly,
and the seasonality of action sluggishness, sticky keys, etc. However
the humidity *levels* in Florida (an issue separate from the fact it
varies) wreak all kinds of havoc from rust, to swelling of materials,
sluggishness, mildew.... general deterioration and shortened lifespan.
Rick
Yogi Panda
> Florida. The variances in humid Florida (varies from "pretty humid" to
> "really, really humid") are responsible for tuning instability mostly,
> and the seasonality of action sluggishness, sticky keys, etc. However
> the humidity *levels* in Florida (an issue separate from the fact it
> varies) wreak all kinds of havoc from rust, to swelling of materials,
> sluggishness, mildew.... general deterioration and shortened lifespan.
Referring to the above quote, Kawai with action parts made of plastic
rather than wood ought to be less prone to the above mentioned humidity
related issues, compared to a Yamaha, for example. Can this be verified
in practice as well?
This thread is highly fascinating and again tosses up (implicitly) the
question that has been asked before, namely, why is it that not more
wooden parts in piano design have been replaced?
For example, an inner rim made of cast iron would be would be free of
humidity related issues. Such a cast iron inner rim would be,
acoustically speaking, even more dead than the (current) ones that are
made of the thickest wood laminate, and would therefore eliminate the
dispersion and tonal distortion effects that was discussed not long ago.
If no one else does, than I will patent this innovation! Just kidding :-)
Another example was tossed up some time ago in another highly
fascinating thread with the subject line "Let's design a piano" or
similar. At the time, it has been proposed to use soundboards that are
made of modern composite materials, similar to those that are used for
the hulls of some airplanes. (These airplanes are constructed according
to the same design principles as the exoskeleton of insects.) Such a
composite material soundboard would also eliminate humidity related issues.
Now, if in addition to that, the wooden pinblock is replaced with a
system of metal gears, then I would go into the business of offering
"lifetime free tuning" services. Just kidding :-)
Yogi, a little bit more pensive than just kidding
Larry Fletcher
>rather than wood ought to be less prone to the above mentioned humidity
>related issues, compared to a Yamaha, for example. Can this be verified
>in practice as well?
Plastic *is* a better material as far as humidity related problems are
concerned. (And Yamaha has their share of plastic too.) The problem many people
have with it, however, is that all plastics are not created equal, and it would
be too easy for a manufaturer to slip in cheap cheesy plastic instead of the
"good" stuff. Also, wood is traditional, and anything that goes against
tradition has a hard time in the piano world. And technicians with any years at
all in the business are way too familiar with the plastics of the 50s-80s in
some pianos, and how expensive it is to eliminate the stuff after it dries out
and begins to shatter. Wood is the material of a craftsman, and plastic is the
material of a chemist - yet another reason technicians tend to be less than
enthused by it. Technicians know what to do with wood - may not be so confident
with problem plastic.
>For example, an inner rim made of cast iron would be would be free of
>humidity related issues. Such a cast iron inner rim would be,
>acoustically speaking, even more dead than the (current) ones that are
>made of the thickest wood laminate, and would therefore eliminate the
>dispersion and tonal distortion effects that was discussed not long ago.
A cast iron inner rim would do the opposite - it would introduce unpleasant
trash harmonics and color the sound. It would also be hard to bond a soundboard
to it, the piano would weigh a ton, and the cost of casting the rim would be so
high that most people wouldn't be able to afford it, just a few negatives to
doing this.
>At the time, it has been proposed to use soundboards that are
>made of modern composite materials,
Now *that* is an interesting possibility, if the costs could be contained. A
soundboard made of carbon fiber would work, and the dimensions and thicknesses
could be absolutely controlled. It would be strong, impervious to himidity
changes, and the absense of grain would do wonders for dispersion. No more
cracks, etc. I would imagine there has been some study done by someone in that
area already.
Actually, if there was a way to get the costs down to where it could be done
affordably, how about a carbon fiber inner rim *and* soundboard? With metal
supporting structures imbedded into the carbon fiber rim, of course. But what
would the beams need to be made of - wood? Carbon fiber as well?
>Now, if in addition to that, the wooden pinblock is replaced with a
>system of metal gears, then I would go into the business of offering
>"lifetime free tuning" services. Just kidding :-)
M&H already tried that. It worked ok, but was expensive, and scared off a lot
of technicians who didn't like trying to tune them. But you would still have
other factors that would stop you from a permanent tuning, like wire stretch,
and the fact that no matter *what* you do, there will always be a little bit of
shifting going on due to temperature and humidity. I think that wood will
remain the material of choice for things such as the inner rim, because if it
is good hardwood such as maple or beech, the rim will last so long that no one
will care by the time it wears out, and it doesn't negatively affect the tone.
I think we need to invent an aerosol spray that locks everything in place. We
could call it "Permatune". (Just kidding)
Larry, (wondering if Taka thinks this post is savvy and authoritative enough,
or if it falls in the cute category) . ;-)
Rick Clark
agree there is room for design improvement or substitute materials
elsewhere in pianos. However, one will also find out that nature's
miraculous materials like wood will often outperform anything else for
the purpose. Just because an aircraft-type material may be very strong
and light (in certain ways) does not mean it will perform as well as
wood, acoustically or otherwise. Nature has evolved extremely
sophisticated and effective materials, well beyond what man has done
yet. I think the poor-sounding space-age materials found in Ovation
acoustic guitars are a good example. Also, alternative materials and
techniques can prove very expensive- and pianos are already too
expensive for many people. The use of a cast iron inner rim, for
example, if it turned out to be feasible would add significantly to
the weight and right away you've got much higher shipping costs and
the need to beef up the piano structure in other ways to carry this
weight. I mean, do people really want pianos that weigh 300 lbs
additional?
Nevertheless, your point is excellent. There is probably more room for
substitute materials that will perform as well or better than natural.
ABS actions..... a better mechanism for tuning pins..... OTOH, one
might also suggest that there might be some better ways to *treat*
wood in order to eliminate some of the traditional problems.
On the *third* hand- one can fairly easily and cheaply eliminate a
wide range of problems right now simply by implementing humidity
control.
Rick
Tom Shaw
space age materials, was designed using acoustic engineering principles
along with a lot of oscilloscope-type work and testing. As I recall
each one is set up using sophisticated electronic equipment. The result
is a lousy guitar which costs a lot for its sound.
My guess is that space age parts could improve the mechanical stability
of the various action parts parts but would be bad in any parts of the
piano which contribute to its resonance.
TS
dennis meulensteen
wood and stabilize it's moisture content?
A lot of home and professional boat builders have been using wood treated in
this way for decades, it's very strong, weather-proof, durable and still
looks like (varnished) wood.
I have no idea if this has ever been tried on a piano, but it can't be very
hard to do.
Dennis.
Yogi Panda
> >rather than wood ought to be less prone to the above mentioned humidity
> >related issues, compared to a Yamaha, for example. Can this be verified
> >in practice as well?
>
> Plastic *is* a better material as far as humidity related problems are
> concerned. (And Yamaha has their share of plastic too.) The problem many people
> have with it, however, is that all plastics are not created equal, and it would
> be too easy for a manufaturer to slip in cheap cheesy plastic instead of the
> "good" stuff. Also, wood is traditional, and anything that goes against
> tradition has a hard time in the piano world. And technicians with any years at
> all in the business are way too familiar with the plastics of the 50s-80s in
> some pianos, and how expensive it is to eliminate the stuff after it dries out
> and begins to shatter. Wood is the material of a craftsman, and plastic is the
> material of a chemist - yet another reason technicians tend to be less than
> enthused by it. Technicians know what to do with wood - may not be so confident
> with problem plastic.
I think that gradual introduction is the way to go, just like Kawai (and
to a lesser extent, also Yamaha) are doing, just that they are not doing
that fast enough. The piano industry at large is slow in adopting
anything, not just synthetic materials. I think that the piano industry
is in the same process as the Swiss watch industry about three to four
decades ago, when they lost their seemingly invincible marketshare based
on mechnical technology almost overnight to electronics. I am not
referring to digital pianos here, but to the use of synthetic materials
in acoustic pianos.
> >For example, an inner rim made of cast iron would be would be free of
> >humidity related issues. Such a cast iron inner rim would be,
> >acoustically speaking, even more dead than the (current) ones that are
> >made of the thickest wood laminate, and would therefore eliminate the
> >dispersion and tonal distortion effects that was discussed not long ago.
>
> A cast iron inner rim would do the opposite - it would introduce unpleasant
> trash harmonics and color the sound. It would also be hard to bond a soundboard
> to it, the piano would weigh a ton, and the cost of casting the rim would be so
> high that most people wouldn't be able to afford it, just a few negatives to
> doing this.
I don't see that a cast iron rim would introduce unpleasant trash
harmonics and coloration of the sound. On the contrary, cast iron is
acoustically more inert than wood, and would therefore introduce *less*
of anything extraneous, including trash harmonics, coloration,
dispersion and distortion. Please note, that I refer to cast iron rather
than steel (which is flexible and may therefore not be as acoustically
inert as cast iron.)
I don't see either that wood-to-metal is hard to achieve in these modern
days of adhesive technology.
I do see that cast iron is heavier than wood.
> >At the time, it has been proposed to use soundboards that are
> >made of modern composite materials,
>
> Now *that* is an interesting possibility, if the costs could be contained. A
> soundboard made of carbon fiber would work, and the dimensions and thicknesses
> could be absolutely controlled. It would be strong, impervious to himidity
> changes, and the absense of grain would do wonders for dispersion. No more
> cracks, etc. I would imagine there has been some study done by someone in that
> area already.
I am sure that studies have been done already and even without knowing
about those studies, I am also sure that the main issue is cost over
volume. The cost, as almost always in synthetic materials, is determined
by processing and tooling, the cost of raw material is almost always
negligible. Since the cost needs to be amortized over volume, it will be
the high volume producers who could potentially bear the tens of
millions or even hundreds of millions needed to develop processing and
tooling. But once the investment is made, it becomes a cookie cutter
system producing very low cost 'cookies' (An apt analogon is the
plastic container industry)
My prediction is therefore that the next generation of pianos using
synthetic materials comes not from the high end piano makers (i.e. not
from Steinway et al) but from highest volume piano makers (i.e. from
Yamaha et al)
> Actually, if there was a way to get the costs down to where it could be done
> affordably, how about a carbon fiber inner rim *and* soundboard? With metal
> supporting structures imbedded into the carbon fiber rim, of course. But what
> would the beams need to be made of - wood? Carbon fiber as well?
That is the idea that I tossed up before, the ideal being that of using
a single structural element for the entire piano. There are rudimentary
examples for this idea already, e.g. the (true) full perimeter cast iron
plate of a vertical that does not require wooden backpost (or beams)
anymore.
Sand casting for the manufacture of cast iron forms imposes limitations
on what geometry can be achieved, basically anything can be sandcasted
provided that the form can be decomposed into two complementary halves.
I believe that the geometry of a single cast iron plate and inner rim is
such a manufacturable form. Both plate and inner rim should be
acoustically inert, and I therefore believe that the combination of both
in a single structural element does not pose compatibility issues.
However, there could be compatibility issues in trying to combine inner
rim and soundboard in a single structural element, since the inner rim
should be acoustically inert, whereas the soundbourd should be
acoustically alive. Trying to achieve the opposite acoustical properties
in a single structural element will be a challenging task, no matter
what material is used. I realize that you can try to reinforce the inner
rim with other (more rigid) materials, but usually, the basic design
approach to be preferred is the one that does not pose any compatibility
issues to begin with.
> >Now, if in addition to that, the wooden pinblock is replaced with a
> >system of metal gears, then I would go into the business of offering
> >"lifetime free tuning" services. Just kidding :-)
>
> M&H already tried that. It worked ok, but was expensive, and scared off a lot
> of technicians who didn't like trying to tune them. But you would still have
> other factors that would stop you from a permanent tuning, like wire stretch,
> and the fact that no matter *what* you do, there will always be a little bit of
> shifting going on due to temperature and humidity. I think that wood will
> remain the material of choice for things such as the inner rim, because if it
> is good hardwood such as maple or beech, the rim will last so long that no one
> will care by the time it wears out, and it doesn't negatively affect the tone.
The main determinant for tuning is the wooden soundboard absorbing
humidity or drying out. The second determinants are the changes of the
inner rim, changes of the pinblock, wire stretch, etc. The synthetic
materials discussed in the above does not address all determinants, but
it does address the first and most of the second determinants. In
practical terms, this may for example change the 'two tunings a year'
guideline (after the first year, i.e. after all of the initial
stretchings) to something like 'one tuning every three years' guideline.
Yogi
Yogi Panda
I have just posted an article in this thread. Just a few additional
points.
The ideal synthetic piano is one that can be produced in a single piece.
Now, since that can't be done, the next best thing is to integrate as
much as possible into a single structural element. As I wrote in my
previous article, sandcasting imposes some limits to manufacturable
geometry, but, for example, injection molding imposes less limits on
manufacturable geometry, in other words, injection molding allows for a
far greater variety of form. I wouldn't be surprised if in the not so
distant future we will see the entire piano case (outer rim, inner rim,
keybed) as a single injection molded piece. Produced in volumes, that
should be very cheap, perhaps $100 or so. The tenet here is to do more
with a fewer number of piece parts.
On your second point, there will always be competition between
evolutionary and revolutionary ways of doing things. By evolutionary I
mean better wood treatment, humidity control, etc. By revolutionary I
mean, for example, the (radical) use of synthetics. I just thought that
piano evolution in the past hundred years have been slow, and it is time
for a piano revolution.
I don't believe that the piano will die as some on this newsgroup seem
to think, at least not in a few decades. But I do believe that there
will be all kinds of piano revolutions in the decades to come. One of
those piano revolutions is the digital piano, and one possible piano
revolution is the synthetic material acoustic piano.
Yogi
Yogi Panda
similar to what is happening on this newsgroup with the Pramberger YCs.
Technicians tend to look favorably upon them, musicians tend to look
unfavorably upon them. As someone with an engineering background I have
gone with the technicians and bought a Pramberger YC, but now the
musician in me is becoming increasingly frustrated and I am only a
casual, intermediate level musician or not much better than that. After
only a few months, I had to find out that the Pramberger YC is a
decently engineered, but inadequately musicianed instrument. The Ovation
guitar looks like that too.
Yogi
Kurt Krueger
>
> >Referring to the above quote, Kawai with action parts made of plastic
> Also, wood is traditional, and anything that goes against
> tradition has a hard time in the piano world.
I seem to remember an attempt to replace felt bushings with
teflon. Sounded like a great idea. Was a disaster.
Tradition has it place.
Kurt Krueger
Tradition has its place.
Rick Clark
>I don't see that a cast iron rim would introduce unpleasant trash
>harmonics and coloration of the sound.
The way pianos are currently built, simply subbing an iron inner rim
might be a disaster. Since the soundboard is firmly mounted to it, the
iron might simply suck the energy right out of it- and only give back
a tiny amount acoustically. Believe me, I've seen it happen, where
there was a little chip of debris that bridged a gap between a bridge
and the plate. At least a 20 dB loss, and very nasal. However- if
there were a way to *float* the soundboard or stand it off, it may
work.
Bosendorfer takes the stance that since spruce is the best soundboard
material due to the strength-to-weight ratio, then the same wood
should also be used for the other structural elements because like it
or not, a certain proportion of the energy is going to get into the
case, so you might as well try to make your case acousticallly
efficient as much as you can. And even though a case is not as
efficient as a soundboard- it is certainly a lot better than iron.
Rick
Rick Clark
>I seem to remember an attempt to replace felt bushings with
>teflon. Sounded like a great idea. Was a disaster.
True enough- but I feel SWay's mistake was predictable. Why they
didn't see it, I don't know. It is predictable because the wood and
the Teflon are vastly different in the way they respond to humidity.
The wood changes dimension a lot, the Teflon hardly at all. So if you
mate the Teflon and the wood, what would you suppose is going to
happen?
OTOH, Yamaha has done a lot of things successfully with innovative or
synthetic materials and techniques. So it's really who is doing the
thinking and the building more than the concept of non-traditional
materials being inherently a bad idea. And I do think that the ABS
stuff in Kawai is great, even moreso as time progresses.
And I'm a guy who loves traditional materials and is loathe to give up
my hide glue. But hide glue is great, that's why I use it. If
something synthetic comes along that can do the same thing, maybe I'll
switch. But this is a different thing than switching because something
cheaper of faster comes along, or just to see "what will happen if I
use this new stuff that I don't well understand".
Rick
Tom Shaw
acoustically inert. Are you saying a cast iron rectangular plate will
not ring if suspended and struck properly as in a xylophone bar?
TS
Tom Shaw
unreliable in the fabrication of boats.
TS
Rick Clark
>
>Is there an explanation, as distinct from an observation, why wood is a
>better material than cast iron for the inner rim? I may be wrong, but my
>current understanding is that the impedance mismatch between inner rim
>and soundboard should be as large as possible to reflect (nearly) all
>acoustic energy back to the soundboard. This impedance mismatch is
>currently achieved with a relatively flimsy soundboard structure and a
>massive inner rim structure. It would seem to me that a (massive) cast
>iron inner rim would provide a, say, tenfold higher impedance than the
>hitherto most massive wooden inner rim, and hence, a higher impedance
>mismatch, and hence, more complete reflection of acoustic energy.
I though about that, too. I'm not really sure what the answer is, but
what you say is correct as per the Capo bar, etc.
>On the float, this reminds me of a Schimmel that I once saw, although
>this may or may not be related. In any case, looking down on the
>soundboard, I saw a large silk cord of about 1" diameter between the
>outer rim and the edge of the soundboard, all around the perimeter.
That's basically just to keep dust out of a gap between the edge of
the soundboard and the outer rim. It's not really structural at all.
>Yes, I saw a few of the discussions on Boesendorfer wanting to make the
>entire case acoustically alive, but they are pretty well isolated in
>their views and efforts, aren't they?
No, cases *are* acoustically alive. All you have to do is touch them
and feel the vibrations as the piano plays to know. Even the legs
vibrate. So the question then becomes what to do about it- go with the
flow, or try to reflect some energy back. Bosendorfer is not alone.
Steinway talks about how the whole case is unified by the pinblock
doweling for "sound" reasons. Many makers talk about how their cases
contribute to the overall sound.
Rick
Yogi Panda
> >entire case acoustically alive, but they are pretty well isolated in
> >their views and efforts, aren't they?
>
> No, cases *are* acoustically alive. All you have to do is touch them
> and feel the vibrations as the piano plays to know. Even the legs
> vibrate. So the question then becomes what to do about it- go with the
> flow, or try to reflect some energy back. Bosendorfer is not alone.
> Steinway talks about how the whole case is unified by the pinblock
> doweling for "sound" reasons. Many makers talk about how their cases
> contribute to the overall sound.
I am not sure, but from what I have gathered sofar, Steinway's approach
is to make the case as acoustically dead as possible, although they
can't achieve that objective perfectly. For example, they are one of the
few makers that make inner and outer rims as a single structure to
achieve maximum rigidity of the case. It is conceivable that they apply
other techniques such as pinblock doweling to further bolster the
rigidity of the case by hook and by crook.
I believe that in most other makes, the outer rim is mostly decorative
(Larry Fine says that too), in other words there is no direct acoustical
coupling of the outer rim to the structural elements of the piano. If
so, and in spite of different claims on the makers part, the outer rim
will play only a minor acoustical part.
Boy, am I chatty these past two days, I will get myself into trouble,
Yogi
Larry Fletcher
>is to make the case as acoustically dead as possible, although they
>can't achieve that objective perfectly. For example, they are one of the
>few makers that make inner and outer rims as a single structure to
>achieve maximum rigidity of the case. It is conceivable that they apply
>other techniques such as pinblock doweling to further bolster the
>rigidity of the case by hook and by crook.
Steinway has managed over the years to sell a line of balogney about how they
make their rims that would make P.T. Barnum proud.
I have seen ads by Steinway showing a bunch of men standing around with big
wooden levers acting as if they were forcing the wood to bend into the rim,
with the ad copy telling about how hard it is to bend to wood by hand when
making a Steinway rim. The Steinway rim is made the exact same way other rims
are made - even Kimball made their rims this way - by taking full lengths of
veneers and surface gluing them together until enough pieces are stacked
together to make a rim, and then dropping the stack into a rim press. The two
rims aren't built together as a single structure any more than any other piano
is made this way. They press the inner and outer rims at the same time in a
press made to do this, so that the two rims fit each other when they finally
*do* end up bonded together. But so does lots of other companies.
As for soundboard fit - if you look at a properly built piano, the soundboard
fits perfectly all around the edge where it meets the outer rim. In cheaper
pianos, you'll find gaps - and if there are too many gaps, sound suffers,
because the outer rim *does* influence sound.
Making a rim "acoustically dead" isn't exactly the goal. Bosendorfer rims
"soak" energy into them and become an active part of the
amplification/sustain/decay process, while everyone else making a premium piano
makes the rim as hard as possible, not only for structural integrity, but to
"reflect" energy as much as possible back into the soundboard. These rims
aren't acoustically "dead" they are reflective. So *all* cases are acoustically
alive, there is just a difference in how the Bosendorfer uses the energy. Cases
will dontribute to the sound of the piano either by "soaking" energy and
becomeing an "extention" of the soundboard, or by acting like the rim of a drum
and reflecting the energy back - either way contributes. It is the Asian rims,
which try to reflect energy but do so with soft wood, where the issue becomes
clouded.
As far as the doweled into the rim pinblock, that will add to the rigidity of
the piano structure, but it has nothing to do with the sound of the piano.
Pinblocks are pinblocks. Steinway isn't the only company to dowel their
pinblocks into the rim.
dennis meulensteen
may get better results that way...
Tens of thousands of modern high tech ships are afloat these days, their
manufacturers would never settle for anything less than epoxy composite
materials!
Check out the thousands of web sites on this subject, the only people who
hate epoxy are usually the people who have, sadly enough, developed an
allergy to it.
But, I was talking about pianos, not boats. In other words whatever your
friend has to say on epoxy, post it to rec.boats.building, and run like...
Dennis (piano lover and, you probably guessed by now, amateur boat builder)
Tom Shaw <a000...@mail.airmail.net> wrote in message
news:1882011590A7B5ED.119E56B6...@lp.airnews.net...
Yogi Panda
considered to be acoustically alive. For example, a wall reflecting a
sound wave is considered acoustically dead. The reason for this notion
is that in order to reflect 100%, the reflector must remain perfectly
motionless. If the reflector vibrates, the reflection is less than 100%.
This is just basic physics.
In a structural unit such as a piano, it is obviously very difficult to
let one part of the structure (strings, soundboard) vibrate, and let
another, attached part (inner rim, case) remain perfectly motionless.
And yet, this is what most piano makers, Steinway included, strive for.
The basic design approach here is to contain, as much as possible, the
acoustically active parts of the piano to the strings and soundboard. In
this basic design approach, any vibration of the case will cause a
deterioration of the resulting sound. The advantage of this basic design
approach is that the piano, because of close to 100% reflection is very
powerful.
The exception to this basic thinking is Boesendorfer who deliberately
let the reflection be less than 100%, the advantage being that the case
now vibrates in a well controlled way. In other words, the acoustically
active parts now includes the case as well, *by design* . This is quite
different from a case vibrating, just because it is so difficult to keep
it perfectly motionless.
I'm not saying which thinking is better, Boesendorfer's or the rest of
the piano world's, I'm just pointing out that the Boesendorfer piano has
an acoustically alive case, all other piano cases are acoustically dead.
If in the latter case, the piano case does vibrate due to imperfections
in the implementation, it only does so to the detriment of the resulting
sound.
Perhaps I can add, that premium pianos have little imperfections due to
implementation, but at a horrendous cost. That's the reason why I tossed
up the idea with a cast iron inner rim, this may help in this particular
aspect.
Yogi
Rick Clark
Do you know if Resorcinol is considered "marine glue" or "epoxy"? I
mean, it's an epoxy, but I'm surprised if it's considered inadequate.
And if Resorcinol or epoxy isn't a marine glue, then what is marine
glue made of?
Rick
Gary
Rick Clark wrote in message <38aed6e1...@news.mindspring.com>...
Rick , you may glean some info at http://www.westsystem.com/
I use their products for extra strong case repairs.
Gary . ( who is going off line for a while )
Frank Weston
Tom and list,
I have built boats, I have built aircraft components, I have built
furniture, I have built and rebuilt musical instruments, and I have used a
lot of epoxy. If a quality epoxy is used in the appropriate place, in
accordance with manufacturers recommendations, there is absolutely,
positively nothing unreliable about the bond. There are no more reliability
problems with epoxy than with any other glue. Epoxy is used extensively in
boat building and in the fabrication of all sorts of wooden/composite parts
for everything from commercial jet aircraft to cart wheels.
Frank Weston
Tom Shaw wrote in message
<9870AE81430A6DCC.040196B5...@lp.airnews.net>...
>He wasn't a friend. He was a sailboat designer who sold plans, kits,
>and finished boats. In his literature he mentioned supplying old
>fashioned marine glue with his kits and recommending same. I wrote to
>him asking why not use epoxy glue and his response was that it was not
>reliable. Now I have used epoxy glue from time to time and have
>experienced the same thing. For one thing the shelf life of the epoxy
>components affects the results and, of course, the mixing concentrations
>of the epoxy and the hardener which varies all over the place changes
>the results, and the temperature during the application changes the
>results.
>I would also like to say that I have used epoxy fillers in high
>reliabillity military transformers in the past and found it
>unsatisfactory for the same reasons, ie. cant control the process.
>I resent your smart ass approach to this thread.
>TS
dennis meulensteen
> He wasn't a friend. He was a sailboat designer who sold plans, kits,
> and finished boats. In his literature he mentioned supplying old
> fashioned marine glue with his kits and recommending same. I wrote to
> him asking why not use epoxy glue and his response was that it was not
> reliable. Now I have used epoxy glue from time to time and have
> experienced the same thing. For one thing the shelf life of the epoxy
> components affects the results and, of course, the mixing concentrations
> of the epoxy and the hardener which varies all over the place changes
> the results, and the temperature during the application changes the
> results.
The shelf life is well documented in the manuals that are freely available,
it's usually several years at normal storage temperatures.
West System epoxy is accepted by Lloyds for shipbuilding, though there are
many other dependable brands out there, not all of which may be equally
suited for all applications, marine or otherwise. The sailboat designer you
spoke of probably has his reasons, perhaps he simply does not believe his
clients will always use the epoxy according to specs. Mixing concentrations
of hardener and epoxy are well documented, and provided the epoxy used is
quality material, they will hardly, if ever vary. Application temperature
only changes the cure time, if the epoxy was mixed according to specs and
used within documented temperature limits.
> I would also like to say that I have used epoxy fillers in high
> reliabillity military transformers in the past and found it
> unsatisfactory for the same reasons, ie. cant control the process.
So much for high reliability. I know of several people who have built more
than one boat using epoxy, all of them will attest to the fact that,
although epoxies are not the easiest materials to use, they are utterly
reliable. There are currently thousands of people around the world who trust
their very lives to the strength and durability of epoxies, with or without
knowing it. It's extensively used in boat building, aircraft construction
and a variety of other high stress applications, but it must be used
according to specifications, much like baking a cake.
> I resent your smart ass approach to this thread.
My smart ass approach was not to the thread, but to your original wise ass
reply.
I still think it might be a good idea to use the stuff to treat a piano.
Dennis.
PS: I have never had a problem using epoxy, except once, when I
'guestimated' the hardener concentration...
Yoogi
>
> I still think it might be a good idea to use the stuff to treat a piano.
>
... and I have not followed this entire thread. Sorry. I just wanted to
jump in and mention that I've seen (and not heard) a soundboard crack
repaired with marine glue that was fantastic for the particular situation.
Some USA technician I ran into years ago told me of the method. We repaired
one about 15 years ago with marine glue and presented it at a local guild
meeting for inspection. No technician (of about 20 attendees) could spot
the repair!
Clark
my current understanding is that the impedance mismatch between inner rim and soundboard should be as large as possible to reflect (nearly) all acoustic energy back to the soundboard. This impedance mismatch is currently achieved with a relatively flimsy soundboard structure and a massive inner rim structure.
Now, Rosamond Harding describes at least one piano with a metal rim,
several others with variously suspended floating soundboards - all previous
to 1851.
The non-isotropic properties of wood are nicely illustrated in violins; their materials are not uniformly strong, nor is the speed of sound constant in all directions in each discreet component. The plates of violins have been described, with some success, acoustically as squares based on the propagation speed of sound waves.
Here, piano ribbing alters this somewhat, at least not to the extent
of plywood boards (themselves a sort of synthetic material), as part of
its primary purpose is to compensate for the lower cross-grain strength
of spruce; however, as they are distinct beams not all of the various non-uniform
wood properties are fully compensated.
The problem, I think, in attempting to improve some inherent faults
in more or less current instruments is that many of these contribute to
what is still seen as a desirable sound (lest electronic pianos become
better preferred and non-imitative). Macaferri-type plastic violins are
readily available for around $100, but I'm afraid even my enthusiasm for
them has not increased their popularity. And I view them as rather independent
of wooden instruments, anyway.
Clark
and p.s.,
a little chip of debris that bridged a gap between a bridge > and the plate. At least a 20 dB loss, and very nasal.
This can be reproduced easily by placing weights upon the bridges, also
described in _The Piano-Forte_...
Concrete would be preferable, more plentiful and way rockier. ;)Wood from sunken logs? Why stop there? Try petrified wood. It might make a good piano for rock music.
Don Mannino RPT
Although I'm not too interested in defending any marketing Bologna, I'd like
to correct a few minor points in your post:
> The Steinway rim is made the exact same way other rims
> are made - even Kimball made their rims this way - by taking full lengths
of
> veneers and surface gluing them together until enough pieces are stacked
> together to make a rim, and then dropping the stack into a rim press. The
two
> rims aren't built together as a single structure any more than any other
piano
> is made this way. They press the inner and outer rims at the same time in
a
> press made to do this, so that the two rims fit each other when they
finally
> *do* end up bonded together.
No, you are incorrect. Steinway's rims are pressed as a unit, inner and
outer, all glued up together. And they do not use veneer - they use
finger-jointed 1/4" maple stock, which is very hard to bend.
> It is the Asian rims,
> which try to reflect energy but do so with soft wood, where the issue
becomes
> clouded.
Not all Asian pianos are created equal. Kawai rims are pressed from Matoa
and Callophyllum, woods which are at least as hard as maple.
It isn't as simple as selecting the hardness of the wood, anyway. It is the
combination of gluing methods (thickness of wood, # of laminations), total
thickness of rim, together with the relative hardness of the wood used which
creates the proper impedance for the desired reflectivity of the rim.
Rims and plates both vibrate, and contribute to the tone of the instrument.
By the way, I remember reading about an American company in the late 19th
century making rims of concrete. Maybe Rick can dig up the info.
Don Mannino RPT
Yogi Panda
> century making rims of concrete.
Holy cow, I hope that's premium grade American concrete
Yogi
Rick Clark
>
>By the way, I remember reading about an American company in the late 19th
Despite my sizeable store of useless trivia, I'm stumped. This one
doesn't ring a bell, so I doubt it's in my archives. I wonder what
kind of finish they had??? And how they delivered the things?
Perhaps the piano was poured in place!
Rick