JAZZ THEORY OF HERBIE HANCOCK?
Paul
Can anyone explain to a newbie the harmonic theory of what Herbie
does
in his "Witch Hunt" solo???
Here is the transcription:
http://www.music.sc.edu/ea/Jazz/Transcriptions/WitchHuntAllCONCERT.pdf
Thanks for any insight into this......
Paul
In particular, there is a run over Cm starting on measure
134, that starts on the Bb, but includes the natural B.
drthoma...@gmail.com
That's a really interesting lick. He's running an EbMaj arpeggio over
a Cimin chord, which is a basic move. But then instead of playing the
C, he plays the Cb.
He could be thinking of that Cb as a B, or the third in a G7 chord.
It's a common move, when you have a long minor run, to alternate some
V7 in there to build a little tension. For Herbie, that B might
signify G7 to his ear.
Or perhaps he's not thinking Cmin at all. Instead, maybe he's thinking
Eb7, the previous chord in the tune, which he had already treated with
the b6 (the Cb). And he's just continuing that sound over the Cmin
chord.
Or, he could just be thinking of it as a color tone, instead of in a
theoretical way.
esiegel
wrote:
naah, this is a tonic c minor, over which people play all that jazz
minor stuff. which includes a b natural.
E
pmfan57
Thanks for the transcription, which also has Freddie Hubbard's solo.
You might want to start with some less "advanced" players, though.
Joey Goldstein
He's arpeggiating a Cbmaj7#5 (aka Bmaj7#5) chord over Cm.
As to why he's doing that I could only guess.
If *I* was doing that I'd be playing off of the fact that all of the
notes of Cbmaj7#5 happen to be chord-sound on a Cm chord. ["Chord-sound"
is the sum of all chord tones plus any extensions that fit the chord.]
Cb = maj7
Eb = b3
G = 5
Bb = b7
Another thing that I might be thinking about is the fact that Bmaj7#5
can function as a voicing of G7alt, and superimposing the sound of V7alt
resolving to Im is a common move over a static Im chord.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
drthoma...@gmail.com
I doubt he's thinking of that scale, since he's also playing the Bb.
The MAN
wrote:
Agreed that the B (or Cb) is the third of just a regular G major
chord (which sounds pretty good arpeggiated by itself over the Cm),
but
then he uses a # 5, so it can be considered an Augmented G arpeggio.
And yes, we tend to think there is all sorts of esoteric theory
that
leads to this great music, but I'll bet most of it is just discovered
through
experimentation....though it still takes talent to know when you have
discovered something good.
The other poster called it a Bmaj7#5, which definitely gives you
a
different flavor, when you start your arpeggio on the B.
Thanks for the input....
The MAN
Well, I'm actually not a complete newbie, and I've gotten good
feedback on my question......but what other less advanced players
would you recommend anyways?
pmfan57
I don't know. Almost any other straightahead players besides Wayne,
Freddie and Herbie! Those guys are graduate level. (I don't think
the other guys are "less advanced" in any quality sense, but it's a
little easier to understand what's going on following along with a
transcription than it is with Herbie, who'll play lines that don't
appear to fit over the chord, but yet sound unbelievable the way he
does it. But only a player as great as him could pull that off).
rpjazzguitar
pointed out that going I - V7 over a I can work, same for Im and V7b13
and similar variations.
Or, he's just adding a B because it sounds good and he isn't thinking
about it all -- which is more likely what's going on. A player at
Herbie's level knows perfectly well how each note is going to sound
over a Cm. Sometimes he gets the minmaj sound with the B, other times
more of a Dorian or natural minor with the Bb.
esiegel
Oh no, you mean herbie broke the rules? Look at the rest of the solo,
he uses the tonic minor scale most of the time. There's nothing
special going on there...
E
Robert
Ear over theory, baby, ear over theory.....
esiegel
arrggh. the song is in c minor. he is playing tonic minor, check the
bar before and after. S/b B nat in all those occurances of Cb, but it
is all tonic minor c...look how he sets up the c tonic minor in the
section 7 on the following page. He does lots of neighboring tones
and lots of sequences out of the normal key throughout the solo, but
that Bb is totally a neighboring tone to a reglar old arpeggio of the
7th mode of the jazz minor or the tonic minor, or whatever you want to
call it (ascending melodic minor is I believe the accepted term).
E
pmfan57
His ear for sure.
Joey Goldstein
There's no Bb in the ascending C mel min scale or in the C harm min scale.
And there's no B nat (aka Cb) in the C nat min scale.
But I agree with you that the tune is in the key of C minor and that the
main focus of his lines is in bringing out that tonality.
I've only glanced at the transcription but it all seems pretty straight
ahead to me. He's usually playing from the same pitch collections that
most folks would play from on those chords.
The weirdest thing I noticed was the use of Fb's on a few of the Abm7
chords.
I think that a lot of guys would opt for using F naturals here,
especially since the chord is paired up with G7 in a cadential formula
to Cm. But the Abm7's are preceded by Eb7, so he appears to hear the Abm
chords as also being akin to a tonic minor sound.
Of course he uses some F naturals on other instances of the same chord too.
I might try to read through this lift if I get a chance.
esiegel
> esiegel wrote:
> > On Nov 26, 5:45 am, rpjazzguitar <rpjazzgui...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Looks to me like he might be thinking a Galt scale. Somebody already
> >> pointed out that going I - V7 over a I can work, same for Im and V7b13
> >> and similar variations.
>
> >> Or, he's just adding a B because it sounds good and he isn't thinking
> >> about it all -- which is more likely what's going on. A player at
> >> Herbie's level knows perfectly well how each note is going to sound
> >> over a Cm. Sometimes he gets the minmaj sound with the B, other times
> >> more of a Dorian or natural minor with the Bb.
>
> > arrggh. the song is in c minor. he is playing tonic minor, check the
> > bar before and after. S/b B nat in all those occurances of Cb, but it
> > is all tonic minor c...look how he sets up the c tonic minor in the
> > section 7 on the following page. He does lots of neighboring tones
> > and lots of sequences out of the normal key throughout the solo, but
> > that Bb is totally a neighboring tone to a reglar old arpeggio of the
> > 7th mode of the jazz minor or the tonic minor, or whatever you want to
> > call it (ascending melodic minor is I believe the accepted term).
>
> > E
>
> There's no Bb in the ascending C mel min scale or in the C harm min scale.
> And there's no B nat (aka Cb) in the C nat min scale.
The Bb in measure 134 is totally a neighbor tone, look at the rest of
the phrase.
E
Joey Goldstein
However you look at that measure it's not an ascending mel min scale.
If you want to call it a G+ arpeggio or an arp of a partial voicing of
Cm(maj7) with a chromatic neighbour tone below the B nat then that's
fine with me too.
But there is no mode of any C minor scale being run there.
Of course, if it helps you to see it from that viewpoint, then go right
ahead. Whatever works works.
esiegel
I didn't mean to suggest that he was running the scale, just that the
lick was built out of seventh mode of the jazz minor scale with a Bb
neighbor tone. One of the fundamental exercises for jazz piano
students is arpeggiating the different scale steps of different modes
in major modes and in jazz minor modes. A slightly more advanced
version is doing the same thing with a neighbor tone below. This is
essentially that basic exercise. Nothing tricky or obscure about it.
Particularly when you look at it in light of the surrounding material,
which is flat out jazz minor.
E
esiegel
this seems so obvious to me is that I am principally a piano player.
I spent a few years studying with Garry Dial who teaches more or less
the berkeley method. A classic and basic exercise from that method is
to play a C tonic minor with the left hand, whatever voicing, and then
arpeggiate the scale step chords in that mode with the right hand.
Then you do the same thing with a neighbor note below. Herbies lick
is exactly what you would do at the 7th scale step.
Obviously I'm not suggesting herbie learned the berkeley method, but
his playing is the basis for much of the way the method is put
together, at least in my mind.
So a modern pianist wouldn't think of this as arpeggiating a BM7 +5
(or b13). s/he would just think of it as playing in the jazz minor
mode, particularly as a single line run.
It occurs to me that guitar players look at the world differently!;^)
E
On Nov 27, 8:39 am, mylesgtr <myles...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In particular, there is a run over Cm starting on measure
> > 134, that starts on the Bb, but includes the natural B.
>
> I think he's just implying the V chord by using the Bmaj7#5 arp. If
> you harmonize Ab melodic minor (commonly played over a G7alt), you get
> Abmin(maj7), Bbmin7, Cbmaj7#5, Db7, Eb7, Fm7b5, Gmin7b5. So he's just
> using an arpeggio derived from the harmonized Ab melodic minor scale
> to imply a G7 (V7) sound over Cminor.
>
> In reality, I doubt he was thinking about *any* of this. I suspect
> Bmaj7#5 is simply a common shape for him to play over a G7alt and this
> is just what he grabbed in the moment to add the tension of the
> implied V chord.
>
> Maybe I'm wrong, but I see this as nothing more than playing off of
> the V chord for a second.
Dan Adler
> I just had a stupid insight as I was writing my last post. The reason
> this seems so obvious to me is that I am principally a piano player.
> I spent a few years studying with Garry Dial who teaches more or less
> the berkeley method. A classic and basic exercise from that method is
> to play a C tonic minor with the left hand, whatever voicing, and then
> arpeggiate the scale step chords in that mode with the right hand.
> Then you do the same thing with a neighbor note below. Herbies lick
> is exactly what you would do at the 7th scale step.
>
> Obviously I'm not suggesting herbie learned the berkeley method, but
> his playing is the basis for much of the way the method is put
> together, at least in my mind.
>
> So a modern pianist wouldn't think of this as arpeggiating a BM7 +5
> (or b13). s/he would just think of it as playing in the jazz minor
> mode, particularly as a single line run.
>
> It occurs to me that guitar players look at the world differently!;^)
>
> E
I agree - this is Cm modal playing, so anything related to any scale
degree goes, and interpreting it as cadential is just splitting hairs
on Joe the plumber. The part that caught my ear more are those
triplets where he uses the steady rhythm to take himself out and back
into the tonality.
It's great to see all three solos side by side. Actually, Wayne's
entry is amazing in itself, not just for the notes he plays, but in
the way he plays the quarter notes completely evenly on the tail end
of the triplet rhythmic plane like Dexter. I hope people are referring
back to the recording when looking at this, otherwise it's
meaningless...
dwabeslim
. I hope people are referring
> back to the recording when looking at this, otherwise it's
> meaningless...
>
> -Danhttp://danadler.com
All right !!
drthoma...@gmail.com
>
> I didn't mean to suggest that he was running the scale, just that the
> lick was built out of seventh mode of the jazz minor scale with a Bb
> neighbor tone. One of the fundamental exercises for jazz piano
> students is arpeggiating the different scale steps of different modes
> in major modes and in jazz minor modes. A slightly more advanced
> version is doing the same thing with a neighbor tone below. This is
> essentially that basic exercise. Nothing tricky or obscure about it.
> Particularly when you look at it in light of the surrounding material,
> which is flat out jazz minor.
That's a good point, Ed. I see what you mean now, and I agree that he
may well have been thinking in those terms.
flatnine
He start with a motif, placing it at different places that fit
diatonically, and different locations rhythmically,
just playing with it. Then once it´s aurally established, it moves
parallel through b3rds,
the "cell" sometimes fit, sometimes don´t.
These kind of cycles not always "need" to be perfect mathematically,
the cycle itself brings its coherency,
(although he does in this case by b3rds. because normally that´s what
we practice)
He plays on the same idea later with 4ths moving by 2nds. etc...
That´s everyday jazz playing. Sometimes these movements appear in
snippets between other stuff as in meas 147 etc...
The line at meas 134 you can speculate its around G7alt. The Gaug
triad is somewhat the starring there.
Particularly in this kind of context or tune, it´s common to either
think tonally based or not,
when tonally, you base your playing around the tonality, when not, you
take advantage of the given chord changes, etc...
You can play whatever you think you want to hear.
When in key. Minor keys have 2 main flavors, determined by the 6th
degree of the key.
Dorian/Melodic or Aeolian/Harmonic (and sometimes Phrygian)
The 7th you choose at the moment you play the 7th.
To understand musicians choices, it´s necessary to appreciate music as
what music is, an ART (what artists do)
If not, is like trying to understand a Van Gogh painting by studying a
Sherwin-Williams color chart.
Colors used are there, shapes, places in the canvas, emphasis,
etc...and art itself, are not.
best from BA
m
http://martinporto.blogspot.com/
Steve Freides
Could you post a link to a recording of this? My own preference, before
even looking at your PDF, would be to listen to it a few times.
Thanks.
-S-
Dan Adler
Wayne Shorter "Classic Blue Note Recordings". Not owning that album is
not something to be proud of...
Paul
Youtube.com