OT but maddeningly relevant
Nev
Tue Aug 31,12:08 AM ETAdd U.S. National - Reuters to My Yahoo!
By Andrea Hopkins
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Chief executives at U.S. companies that shipped jobs
overseas won a 46 percent pay hike last year, more than five times the
average CEO raise, while ordinary workers' paychecks barely budged, a study
showed on Tuesday.
In its annual look at CEO compensation, the nonprofit liberal Institute for
Policy Studies found executive pay at the 50 firms outsourcing the most
service-sector jobs increased 46 percent in 2003, while the average CEO got
a 9 percent raise and regular workers saw a 2 percent boost in pay.
"The fact that leading outsourcers make more money than average CEOs is one
more reflection of a perverse system that rewards executives for making
decisions that may improve their bottom line while hurting workers and
communities," the Institute said in its 11th annual survey.
The study found the average compensation for chief executives at the top 50
outsourcing companies was $10.4 million last year, 28 percent above that of
executives at 365 large companies surveyed by Business Week magazine, who
earned about $8.1 million each.
CEO pay overall was 301 times higher than the $26,899 earned by the average
production worker, the study showed. That's up from about 42 times that of
the average worker in 1982.
The study's definition of compensation includes salary, bonuses, restricted
stock, long-term incentive payouts, other annual compensation and the value
of stock options exercised. It does not include the estimated value of
options granted but not exercised.
The institute said it was not able to calculate the exact number of U.S.
jobs affected by outsourcing last year because shipping jobs overseas has
become such a sensitive political issue that firms try to avoid reporting
such jobs losses.
The study focused on the 50 companies "on the forefront of the outsourcing
trend" based on a database compiled by the Washington Alliance of Technology
Workers, an affiliate of the Communications Workers of America labor group.
HOT POTATO
The top 50 outsourcing firms included United Technologies Corp., where CEO
George David's pay rose 629 percent to $70.5 million last year; Citigroup,
where outgoing CEO Sanford Weill's pay rose 305 percent to $54.1 million;
and software giant Oracle, where CEO Lawrence Ellison's pay rose 103,974
percent to $40.6 million, according to the study.
Outsourcing has become a political hot potato in America, where job growth
has lagged the economic recovery, and both President Bush (news - web sites)
and Democratic rival John Kerry (news - web sites) have struggled to
reassure workers there is a solution.
According to Forrester Research, more than 3 million service jobs will move
offshore by 2015 -- many of them white-collar, high-tech or call-center jobs
to India.
Some economists and policy-makers have said the shift will benefit the
nation in the long run by lowering the price of goods and services and
boosting profits, but U.S. workers argue they cannot afford to buy anything
if they don't have jobs.
The study noted that if the U.S. minimum wage had increased as quickly as
CEO pay has since 1990, it would be $15.76 an hour instead of the current
$5.15.
The study noted the pay for CEOs who outsource was about 3,300 times the pay
of an Indian call center employee or 1,300 times that of an average Indian
computer programmer.
NoSheeples
If I owned a company and some shmuck saved me millions of dollars I would
gladly double his pay. ;o)
Michael
n2...@aol.comNsheep says...
> If I owned a company and some shmuck saved me millions of dollars I would
> gladly double his pay. ;o)
>
find a job?
NoSheeples
>find a job?
>
Enlighten me as to why any educated person can't find a job in the good old
USA??
Nev
> Enlighten me as to why any educated person can't find a job in the good
old
> USA??
Depends on where you live [Seattle area], if you're willing to move [I'm
not] and what you do [technical & medical illustration & related graphics,
also studying 3D modeling & animation for my third degree].
The 'Grand Exalted Poo Bah' in far off Washington DC can say what he wants,
but the NW economy is still less than sterling.
NoSheeples
>but the NW economy is still less than sterling.
>
>
>
Yea and what do you want him to do? Maybe the only reason I have had work 20
of the last 19.5 years is becuase I never rely on washinton in the first
place. You should try it, it works. ;o)
mfell211...@yahoo.com
Tom normally I would agree with you on this however, when capitalism
is abused to the extreme as it is today it will cause some serious
repercussions in the job market for many Americans. My buddy who is
well more educated then most :-) and graduated number one in his class
took a 20% pay cut last year. It seems that over in India they do his
job (Electronic engineer)for $6.00 an hour of course he does it better
but, it seems to me quality doesn't matter much anymore as it is all
about the bottom line.
Regards
Michael H. Fell
Nev
> >The 'Grand Exalted Poo Bah' in far off Washington DC can say what he
wants,
> >but the NW economy is still less than sterling.
> Yea and what do you want him to do?
Get out of office. Frankly, I'd rather have his father in office than him...
and I didn't vote for his father. I find him embarassing to even listen to.
But that's a further discussion not for here.
> Maybe the only reason I have had work 20
> of the last 19.5 years is becuase I never rely on washinton in the first
> place.
Then you're quite fortunate. Where do you live and what do you do?
> You should try it, it works. ;o)
That's a simplistic generalization... but no, I don't "rely on Washington"
as such. However, I was directly affected by a senseless Fed decision
[regarding extended unemployment benefits while I was still in college
full-time: tuition paid completely by the Fed, which I'm of course most
greatful for]... but that too is a discussion not for here.
Back to percussion.
George Lawrence
CEO's with that of the late 1800's and the first half of last century. I'm
just making a common sense guess that the percentage gap has actually
narrowed.
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
2091 Front Street
Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio 44221
website http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
email geo...@georgesdrumshop.com
330 940 DRUM (3786)
toll free 866 970 0800
fax 330 940 3785
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"Nev" <n...@whidbey.com> wrote in message
news:v4adnWnaZe6...@whidbeytel.com...
NoSheeples
>is abused to the extreme as it is today it will cause some serious
>repercussions in the job market for many Americans. My buddy who is
>well more educated then most :-) and graduated number one in his class
>took a 20% pay cut last year. It seems that over in India they do his
>job (Electronic engineer)for $6.00 an hour of course he does it better
>but, it seems to me quality doesn't matter much anymore as it is all
>about the bottom line.
>Regards
>Michael H. Fell
>
>
>
>
>
>
Yes that is a problem. I think the key point here is the 20% pay reduction.
While it might suck he's not alone. I have had to take pay cuts myself but for
different reasons. At least he is still working.
Howard Hess
<drum...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>I would like to see the comparison between the pay of current workers and
>CEO's with that of the late 1800's and the first half of last century. I'm
>just making a common sense guess that the percentage gap has actually
>narrowed.
George,
I agree that would be interesting ... but I'm not certain I see the
relevance. The modern CEO -- a professional manager, not a
founder/owner -- is certainly a different thing from a 19th-century
"captain of industry." If we want to go further in an
apples-to-oranges comparison, we could wind the clock back to the
early to mid-1800s, and compare the pay of slaves with that of
plantation owners.
The other point that would be lost in such a comparison, my common
sense tells me, is that for many years -- for most of the 20th
century, I'd expect -- ordinary workers had an opportunity to improve
their condition and the outlook for their children's future, and
changes tended to be incremental and gradual. I don't think American
optimism would be the force it is if, for most people, the American
experience was nasty, brutish and short.
Today, I think its reasonable to assert that U.S. workers in many
industries don't see an opportunity to improve their condition, and
even worse, that changes now tend to be abrupt (e.g. "we're moving
production to -insert country name here").
There is further concern that these trends are affecting people who
used to feel immune to the loss of jobs ... technology workers, for
example. And I'm not talking about just call center/help desk
employees, but people with outstanding skills in software development
and engineering. I just drove past the abandoned Motorola site way
outside Chicago, near the Wisconsin border. Those jobs ... gone, all
of them. An empty, gleaming, as-new office campus.
We're not going to put the globalization genie back in the bottle. We
have a global infrastructure for technology and logistics that makes
it possible for jobs to move around the globe, and we have a global
economic system geared to increasing efficiency/reducing cost.
So what can we do about all of the people who are viewed as "cost"
--those in labor and, increasingly, management? Do we rely on the
long-term wisdom and sense of equity and fairness of the people who
decide who is "cost" and who is "value?" Is the increasing gap in
executive compensation v. worker compensation any indication that we'd
be wiser (but sadder, IMO) to expect short-term self-interest to drive
behavior?
This isn't just an issue for those in the manufacturing or technology
industries. The healthcare industry treats doctors as costs, and we've
only just begun to see migration of healthcare services overseas --
e.g., the radiologist in Bangalore looking at an x-ray taken by a
technican in Moline, sent as an image over the Internet.
So, as you are curious about the pay gap 100+ years ago, I'm also
curious about the changes in opportunity -- real and perceived -- that
have occurred in the same period.
But, that's far more than enough rambling from me for now.
Howard Hess
Mike,
I don't know whether you're suggesting that quality always suffers
when work is moved to India, China, etc., but I know from experience
that isn't the case.
As far as everything being about the bottom line, be careful: that
almost sounds like something a chowderheaded liberal would say. 8-)
Make mine New England clam ....
h2
ratz0fratzo
>Some economists and policy-makers have said the shift will benefit the
>nation in the long run by lowering the price of goods and services and
>boosting profits, but U.S. workers argue they cannot afford to buy anything
>if they don't have jobs.
What a heaping load of crap. Prices only move one way. Up.
We hear that same reasoning every time the utilities try to justify us
supporting some piece of legislation that allows them to charge more
for their services. The rates without fail go up.
Lines like that should come with lubrication.
___
... ®atzofratzo
Glenn Dowdy
"Howard Hess" <hmh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8giaj09lbh276prrk...@4ax.com...
>
> We're not going to put the globalization genie back in the bottle. We
> have a global infrastructure for technology and logistics that makes
> it possible for jobs to move around the globe, and we have a global
> economic system geared to increasing efficiency/reducing cost.
And the last is because we have a world-wide customer base customer base
that insists on getting goods as cheaply as possible. I'm in the middle of a
Asia-Pacific trip that's taken me to factories in Chonburi, Thailand and
Suzchou, China. The factory in China was as modern and well run as any
electronic assembly plant I've seen.
>
> So what can we do about all of the people who are viewed as "cost"
> --those in labor and, increasingly, management? Do we rely on the
> long-term wisdom and sense of equity and fairness of the people who
> decide who is "cost" and who is "value?" Is the increasing gap in
> executive compensation v. worker compensation any indication that we'd
> be wiser (but sadder, IMO) to expect short-term self-interest to drive
> behavior?
>
> This isn't just an issue for those in the manufacturing or technology
> industries. The healthcare industry treats doctors as costs, and we've
> only just begun to see migration of healthcare services overseas --
> e.g., the radiologist in Bangalore looking at an x-ray taken by a
> technican in Moline, sent as an image over the Internet.
>
> But, that's far more than enough rambling from me for now.
But well-thought out, non-partisan rambling. That's rare enough anywhere
that I would consider the time reading it well spent.
Glenn D.
Glenn Dowdy
> On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 03:29:01 GMT, mfell2112*nospam*@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> >On 31 Aug 2004 23:43:43 GMT, n2...@aol.comNsheep (NoSheeples) wrote:
> >
> >
> > Tom normally I would agree with you on this however, when capitalism
> >is abused to the extreme as it is today it will cause some serious
> >repercussions in the job market for many Americans. My buddy who is
> >well more educated then most :-) and graduated number one in his class
> >took a 20% pay cut last year. It seems that over in India they do his
> >job (Electronic engineer)for $6.00 an hour of course he does it better
> >but, it seems to me quality doesn't matter much anymore as it is all
> >about the bottom line.
The quality of training for engineers in India is top-notch. The IIT is one
of the most respected universities in the world, so you aren't necessarily
giving up quality by using India-trained engineers.
>
> I don't know whether you're suggesting that quality always suffers
> when work is moved to India, China, etc., but I know from experience
> that isn't the case.
Me, too. I've spent time in both countries, worked with engineers and
factories in both countries. They can be quite competent.
>
> As far as everything being about the bottom line, be careful: that
> almost sounds like something a chowderheaded liberal would say. 8-)
>
Ummm, bottom line. Gotta love a profit.
Glenn D.
John P
> Depends on where you live [Seattle area], if you're willing to move [I'm
> not] and what you do [technical & medical illustration & related graphics,
> also studying 3D modeling & animation for my third degree].
So, you can't get a job because you won't do anything that might allow you
to do so... and you blame people in DC because....?
John P
> That's a simplistic generalization... but no, I don't "rely on Washington"
> as such. However, I was directly affected by a senseless Fed decision
> [regarding extended unemployment benefits while I was still in college
> full-time: tuition paid completely by the Fed, which I'm of course most
> greatful for]... but that too is a discussion not for here.
Wow. Paid for your college, then had the nerve to not extend your
unemployment past the 26 weeks you had already snagged? Man, GW sure has it
in for you.
John P
> Tom normally I would agree with you on this however, when capitalism
> is abused to the extreme as it is today it will cause some serious
> repercussions in the job market for many Americans. My buddy who is
> well more educated then most :-) and graduated number one in his class
> took a 20% pay cut last year. It seems that over in India they do his
> job (Electronic engineer)for $6.00 an hour of course he does it better
> but, it seems to me quality doesn't matter much anymore as it is all
> about the bottom line.
Can you blame that on the government? Or is it more of a vicious circle?
Maybe electronic engineers have been overpaid by 20%?
Doesn't the market dictate what any given job is "worth"?
Why don't companies care about quality? How often do you shop for quality?
How often are you willing to pay significantly more for that quality?
It just seems there are far too many variables in the mix to lay the blame
in anyone place (least of all DC).
Glenn Dowdy
"ratz0fratzo" <ratzoDEL...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:6kqaj0ph6uovk46v9...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:04:38 -0700, "Nev" <n...@whidbey.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Some economists and policy-makers have said the shift will benefit the
> >nation in the long run by lowering the price of goods and services and
> >boosting profits, but U.S. workers argue they cannot afford to buy
anything
> >if they don't have jobs.
>
> What a heaping load of crap. Prices only move one way. Up.
>
release. 18 months ago, we were selling 4x DVD+RW internal drives for $300.
I've seen no-name 8x DVD+-RW drives at $49 this summer. I know that 16x
DVD+-RW dual layer drives will hit the market for the holidays at $99. Don't
tell me prices don't go down.
Glenn D.
John P
> There is further concern that these trends are affecting people who
> used to feel immune to the loss of jobs ... technology workers, for
> example. And I'm not talking about just call center/help desk
> employees, but people with outstanding skills in software development
> and engineering. I just drove past the abandoned Motorola site way
> outside Chicago, near the Wisconsin border. Those jobs ... gone, all
> of them. An empty, gleaming, as-new office campus.
You might consider that companies today are cleaning up the mess created by
the excesses they went through from about the mid 1970's on through the
90's. You had managers managing the managers of managers who were in charge
of several managing managers whose job it was to manage the management of
the managing managers.
*That's* why they needed a 50 zillion square foot office campus. One day,
someone started walking around asking each person what their job was. When
50% answered "What company is this?", they realized there was a bit of a
problem.
Glenn Dowdy
"John P" <Pri...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:uzfZc.269173$eM2.7477@attbi_s51...
>
> You might consider that companies today are cleaning up the mess created
by
> the excesses they went through from about the mid 1970's on through the
> 90's. You had managers managing the managers of managers who were in
charge
> of several managing managers whose job it was to manage the management of
> the managing managers.
Peter Gibbons : You see Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't
care.
Bob Porter : Don't? Don't care?
Peter Gibbons : It's a problem of motivation, alright? Now if I work my ass
off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so
where's the motivation? And here's another thing, I have eight different
bosses right now.
Bob Porter : Eight?
Peter Gibbons : Eight Bob. So that means when I make a mistake, I have eight
different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real
motivation is not to be hassled, that and the fear of losing my job. But you
know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get
fired.
>
> *That's* why they needed a 50 zillion square foot office campus. One day,
> someone started walking around asking each person what their job was. When
> 50% answered "What company is this?", they realized there was a bit of a
> problem.
>
Tom Smykowski: Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the god damn
customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at
dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with
you people?
Ah, the cube life.
Glenn D.
TJ Hertz
news:s7eZc.9248$Ys3....@news.cpqcorp.net...
>
> "Howard Hess" <hmh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:3qlaj0d7a34kbdd3k...@4ax.com...
> > On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 03:29:01 GMT, mfell2112*nospam*@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > >On 31 Aug 2004 23:43:43 GMT, n2...@aol.comNsheep (NoSheeples) wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom normally I would agree with you on this however, when capitalism
> > >is abused to the extreme as it is today it will cause some serious
> > >repercussions in the job market for many Americans. My buddy who is
> > >well more educated then most :-) and graduated number one in his class
> > >took a 20% pay cut last year. It seems that over in India they do his
> > >job (Electronic engineer)for $6.00 an hour of course he does it better
> > >but, it seems to me quality doesn't matter much anymore as it is all
> > >about the bottom line.
>
> The quality of training for engineers in India is top-notch. The IIT is
one
> of the most respected universities in the world, so you aren't necessarily
> giving up quality by using India-trained engineers.
>
FWIW, in my experience, tech support call centres in Asia are considerably
more considerate and knowledgeable than their US or UK counterparts. I don't
know what either of them are paid, but when my computer breaks down I would
have absolutely no problem with a Pakistani fixing it.
--
tj hertz
Frisco
Yeah, but DVD-burners aren't really a market indicator... technology
prices always drop as manufacturing catches up with demand.
Paul
Tony Kujawa
As an engineer (tool design) I deal with these foreign born (Indian,
Chinese) engineers quite frequently. While they are book smart, they lack
common sense and real world experience and little problem solving skills.
If it didn't come out of a book, they don't have a clue. Now granted, this
is not every case, but the dozens of foreign engineers I've worked with, 99%
are like this. The scabs of the engineering world if you will. Management
sees a graduate degree and a willingness to work for peanuts and bingo you
have an engineer! There happens to be a certain gigantic auto company that
we deal with that hires A LOT of these type engineers, and this company
consistently has more F-ups from them than the others. Quality definitely
is not job one there anymore.
Sam Savoca
> Peter Gibbons : You see Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just
don't
> care.
> Bob Porter : Don't? Don't care?
> Peter Gibbons : It's a problem of motivation, alright? Now if I work my
ass
> off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so
> where's the motivation? And here's another thing, I have eight different
> bosses right now.
> Bob Porter : Eight?
> Peter Gibbons : Eight Bob. So that means when I make a mistake, I have
eight
> different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real
> motivation is not to be hassled, that and the fear of losing my job. But
you
> know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get
> fired.
> >
> >
> Tom Smykowski: Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the god
damn
> customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good
at
> dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong
with
> you people?
Friggin' great movie! I loved the guy (Milton) who was still showing up for
work months after he was fired and *nobody* wanted to talk to him about it.
So they just kept making his cubicle smaller, then filled it up as a storage
area and finally moving him to the basement. "Excuse me...I believe you
have my stapler" LMAO!
Sam S.
Howard Hess
>
>
> >Some economists and policy-makers have said the shift will benefit the
> >nation in the long run by lowering the price of goods and services and
> >boosting profits, but U.S. workers argue they cannot afford to buy anything
> >if they don't have jobs.
>
> What a heaping load of crap. Prices only move one way. Up.
>
In aggregate (e.g. cost of living), I'd agree. For natural resouces,
true.
But for specific items or sectors, I'd disagree. Have you priced
consumer electronics lately? Like DVD playsers?
Even snare drums? I was corresponding with someone who bought a COB
Powertone for $155 in 1965 or so. At $250, once we've adjusted for
inflation, a Black Dawg would be a much cheaper brass drum; even a
current brass Supra would be cheaper.
Does anybody know the comparative price of cars over the past four
decades?
pottedmeat42
> I would like to see the comparison between the pay of current workers and
> CEO's with that of the late 1800's and the first half of last century. I'm
> just making a common sense guess that the percentage gap has actually
> narrowed.
>
> --
George, what did your average gig pay in the late 1800's? :-)
Jason
"you ain't got to do no soloin' brother, just keep what you got!"
-James Brown to Clyde Stubblefield
(BTW - I think you make an EXCELLENT point)
jmt
I speak a few languages fluently and a bunch of them
Half-asinine...I can generally make out the gist of the statment, given
a little time to digest the info and follow the patterns of the
speaker's phrasing. I have dealt w/Pakistani/Indian tech support a few
times; the individuals involved spoke beautiful, precise, grammatically
flawless English, which was completely unintelligible to me,(jmt).
It's all in the rhythm of the phrasing;
jmt
Rev. Poindexter
Hess <hmh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hmmm,
Just off the top of my head:
A 1956 Chevy Bel Air sold for something like $2500.
A 1969 Chevy Impala sold for something like $4000
A 1987 Chevy Caprice sold for something like $14,000
A 1995 Chevy Caprice sold for something like $23,000
Now Chevy doesn't make a full sized sedan.
NoSheeples
>to do so... and you blame people in DC because....?
>
Becuase they forgot what Kennedy said.
Ask not what?
John P
> Becuase they forgot what Kennedy said.
> Ask not what...
Your country is handing you today, but what they will be handing you for the
rest of your life.
... and where the hell is my 40 acres and a mule?
(Personally, I think everyone who asks that should be given a mule)
NoSheeples
>Your country is handing you today, but what they will be handing you for the
>rest of your life.
>... and where the hell is my 40 acres and a mule?
>
>(Personally, I think everyone who asks that should be given a mule)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
And a shovel to clean up the mess. ;o)
NoSheeples
>Your country is handing you today, but what they will be handing you for the
>rest of your life.
>... and where the hell is my 40 acres and a mule?
>
You know on this topic I can't remember the last presedent who said anything
worth
going down in the history books. I think Kennedy and maybe Reagan. Read my lips
don't count either. ;o)
Howard Hess
Kennedy is an interesting choice to quote in a thread on the behavior
of business executives. During or shortly after his Administration's
scuffle with the steel industry over a price hike, JFK was reported to
say something like "My father told me all businessmen were SOBs, but I
didn't believe him until today."
While JFK campaigned on a platform of economic growth, and as
president pushed for tax cuts that were enacted after his death, there
was no love lost between him and the business elite. I certainly can't
imagine President Bush getting irked enough by business executives to
send the IRS in -- and this was probably illegal on Kennedy's part --
to go over their personal and corporate tax records with a
fine-toothed comb.
I suspect that JFK would be appalled at the growing disparity in
income; I have no doubt RFK would be.
If you want to have some fun with a compare-and-contrast, take a look
at JFK's May 1961 speech to a joint session of Congress (
http://www.jfklibrary.org/j052561.htm ) in the context of the last
several years.
h2
Mark Rance
-Mark
"jmt" <j...@shawneelink.net> wrote in message
news:2pmbdcF...@uni-berlin.de...
NoSheeples
>Kennedy is an interesting choice to quote in a thread on the behavior
>of business executives.
Well im sure You can make that connection. Now what can you do for your
country? ;o)
Steve Turner
It seems like maybe once every 50 years we get a president who is
actually *presidential*. You know, a LEADER. An INSPIRATION. I think
we're all going to be in the nursing home before that happens again.
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, change the chemical designation to its common name.
jmt
Redneck/Hoosier/Canadian(esp.theWesternProvinces);
jmt
Trevor Magnusson
When it comes to any manufactured goods (particularly labor-intensive)
you can have either (a) locally made, or (b) lower prices.
We've got a "buy Australian" campaign here, just like you do with "buy
USA". And once in a while people take notice of it. But if you've got a
mortgage, kids in school, and you need to keep an eye on home finances
- most categories of expenditure run like this: you choose the cheapest
priced decent-quality item. (There are some classes where you want the
best and cost is a second consideration.) Who doesn't wear clothing &
footware manufatured somewhere in Asia (possibly South America for
state-siders)? Who hasn't got a house full of electric appliances from
various Asian countries?
When faced with a choice of paying more, most people will say "what
will I (or my kids) have to give up, to buy the more expensive
locally-made item?"
It's an unfortunate fact that a good middle-class standard of living is
only possible if there are third-world countries willing to work hard
for less than union-backed workers in Western countries like ours.
One of my (very occasional) vices is cigars, and as I live in
Australia, I can legally buy Cuban (gloat, gloat). But consider how
much skilled labor is required to make those things. No way could I
afford them if they were being made in Australia or the US - I only get
that level of luxury because they come from a country with a crippled
economy (crippled by youse yanks, BTW).
So... when executives and CEOs move labor-intensive parts of their
business overseas, the reason they get pay hikes is because they make
more profit, because everyone still buys their stuff - complainers
included.
PS: That being said, I am proud of the Aussie drum enterprises - Brady,
Spirit etc, and maybe someday when I have more cash to burn might
support them.
Howard Hess
<trevor...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>It's an unfortunate fact that a good middle-class standard of living is
>only possible if there are third-world countries willing to work hard
>for less than union-backed workers in Western countries like ours.
Trevor,
I think I'd modify your statement slightly, adding:
And that standard of living is only possible until *your* job moves
overseas.
Cheers,
h2
John P
> And that standard of living is only possible until *your* job moves
> overseas.
This is the land of opportunity. There's nothing to stop you from learning a
new skill and getting a different job.
After a minor flood in my basement last weekend, I was cleaning out some
boxes of old files. I remarked to my wife how I was a bit amazed looking
back at all the things I'd had a hand in during the past 27 years or so.
Jobs I've had:
paperboy
lawn mowing
snow shoveling
dishwasher
pizza maker
mail clerk
musician
carpenter
painter
custom cabinet maker
production shop foreman
Convenience store clerk
military:
electronics tech
radar operator
recruiter
truck driver
warehouse foreman
sales (solder - to electronics manufacturers)
stained glass artist
national sales manager
sales (advertising)
computer consultant
retail marketing rep (AST computers)
regional marketing manager (NEC computers)
marketing consultant (auto dealer OEM parts)
regional sales manager (auto dealer OEM parts)
sales (automotive paint)
That's at least 18 very different jobs (28 jobs total - I generally work
more than one at a time) in 27 years.
No matter what happens to *your* job, there is another one right around the
corner. You just have to go get it.
NoSheeples
You have earned my respect. I thought I had everyone beat. I did almost all
things you have done. Like I said it's not whats out there it what you are
willing to do.
All my hard worked payed off at age 32.
I landed a life time Job making more money that I thought I would.
Howard Hess
John,
I wasn't suggesting that the only option was to go on the dole, though
my post didn't make that clear.
To clarify my point, many times when people lose a job and need to
change trades/professions, two things happen: their wages/benefits are
interrupted during their period of unemployment (offset by the dole,
of course), and their wages/benefits in the new job are less than
those received in the old job.
Both of which can lead to a reduction in the standard of living.
By the way, that stained glass artist job is intriguing. What kind of
stuff did you make?
John P
> I landed a life time Job making more money that I thought I would.
I used to think I'd find one place and settle in... but companies today
don't really do anything to make that worthwhile. Besides, after about 5
years, you'll not likely ever get a significant pay raise staying in one
place. I'll probably have at least 28 more jobs before I croak or retire.
John P
> I wasn't suggesting that the only option was to go on the dole, though
> my post didn't make that clear.
Yeah. I was just using your point to jump off of and rant a bit about all
the people complaining about losing *their* jobs. With flexibility and
willingness, one can always have a job.
> Both of which can lead to a reduction in the standard of living.
Some times. Depends on how your standard of living is set. Most people tend
to live up to and, maybe, a bit beyond their income. My wife and I live as
though we only have one income. She works. I often work 2 (or more) jobs. We
both have activities that generate some side money as well.
If either of us loses a job, nothing much changes.
> By the way, that stained glass artist job is intriguing. What kind of
> stuff did you make?
It actually goes beyond what I made. In my job at the solder company, I got
very involved in the stained glass industry (they use a lot of solder and
solder products). In that role, I soon became somewhat of a national (or
maybe even global) "expert" on stained glass. I thought that it was odd that
a lot of people viewed me that way until one person explained it to me.
Stained glass artists are generally very secretive with their methods and
techniques. I talked to *all* of them, since I was making (and creating)
products that allowed them to do their job. So, without actually giving away
any secrets, when someone would call and say "I need to do this, but don't
know how.", I could always answer with "You might try something like this.",
or "I just came out with a new product to address that." It's a very cool
industry with a lot of very cool people.
As to my own glass work... I worked with one artist that did commissioned
works, primarily for churches and cemeteries. I also worked with a guy that
did mass production pieces, primarily FLW replicas. On my own, I just do
occasional commission work for high end homes (cabinet doors, sky lights,
etc.). I didn't get into that on purpose... I did 16 cabinet doors for my
sister's kitchen when she built a new house about 6 years ago. Since then,
people that have been there, asked her who did them and called me. Then you
have 2 houses where people see your stuff, then 3, then 4....
I don't like doing "coloring book" pieces (usually a duck or some bird that
looks like the drawing from a coloring book), I tend more towards the
abstract. I'll take shapes and visual elements from the house, then come up
with a design that carries those over into the glass. I stay away from using
too much color (I like a variety of different clear or opaque glasses), and
tend towards glasses that have some character of their own. Where I do use
color, again, I pick up from what already is in the house.
Kurgan666
> >No matter what happens to *your* job, there is another one right around the
> >corner. You just have to go get it.
> >
> John,
>
> I wasn't suggesting that the only option was to go on the dole, though
> my post didn't make that clear.
>
> To clarify my point, many times when people lose a job and need to
> change trades/professions, two things happen: their wages/benefits are
> interrupted during their period of unemployment (offset by the dole,
> of course), and their wages/benefits in the new job are less than
> those received in the old job.
>
> Both of which can lead to a reduction in the standard of living.
>
> By the way, that stained glass artist job is intriguing. What kind of
> stuff did you make?
Yep. I was making pretty good money when the company I worked for went
belly-up three years ago. I took a $20K a year cut in pay when I took
my current job. Guess what; I've been working part time as a temp and
doing contract work to help make up the difference. Moreover, my
family had to significantly reduce our expenditures and tighten our
belts.
When people bitch about their jobs being outsourced, I have little
sympathy for them. No one is guaranteed employment (except for
government workers and union members :-). Technology changes and
people have to adapt and work harder. The timber industry was gutted
here in Oregon due to environmental regulation and automation; whole
towns dried up and went away. Where was the outrage then? The advent
of computers have forced many out of a job; why aren't people upset by
that fact? This outsourcing phenomenon is just another bump in the
road that Americans need to adapt to and overcome.
There's no room for complacency in this day and age.
NoSheeples
>I used to think I'd find one place and settle in... but companies today
>don't really do anything to make that worthwhile. Besides, after about 5
>years, you'll not likely ever get a significant pay raise staying in one
>place. I'll probably have at least 28 more jobs before I croak or retire.
For the most part true, but there are exceptions. Keep looking and don't give
up.
John P
>>I used to think I'd find one place and settle in... but companies today
No way. I'm diggin' it this way. Not only that, but the more places you
work, the more connections you get. The more connections you have, the more
you can get done. I figure in about 10 more jobs, I'll be able to do nothing
except sit home, make phone calls, hook people up and collect a check for
doing it. :-)
... never, never burn bridges.
Howard Hess
I was acquainted with a guy who kinda did that. From his house in
Aspen, on a road named Puppy Smith Street. 20 years later, I still
remember the name of that street.
Life is good if you're making a living on the phone from Aspen.
George Lawrence
"captains of Industry". A few CEOs that I know had their own businesses,
sold them and then were hired to run those businesses or hired to run other
businesses because of their success or to keep them from competing. I'm sure
some of these CEOs are overpaid and some are ripping off their stock holders
but that isn't the norm. It's just that the few have been in the spotlight
lately. a lot of these guys are being paid in stock options that aren't
worth as much as they used to be.
I think the limits in advancement and opportunity are more because of the
changing technology. Things become so obsolete so quickly that it's hard to
find a thirty year job with promotions because there are very few thirty
year businesses. A lot of the security in jobs was because of less
anti-trust laws and less deregulation that gave businesses some longevity
wasn't it?
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
2091 Front Street
Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio 44221
website http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
email geo...@georgesdrumshop.com
330 940 DRUM (3786)
toll free 866 970 0800
fax 330 940 3785
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"Howard Hess" <hmh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8giaj09lbh276prrk...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 03:32:55 GMT, "George Lawrence"
> <drum...@ameritech.net> wrote:
>
> >I would like to see the comparison between the pay of current workers and
> >CEO's with that of the late 1800's and the first half of last century.
I'm
> >just making a common sense guess that the percentage gap has actually
> >narrowed.
>
> George,
>
> I agree that would be interesting ... but I'm not certain I see the
> relevance. The modern CEO -- a professional manager, not a
> founder/owner -- is certainly a different thing from a 19th-century
> "captain of industry." If we want to go further in an
> apples-to-oranges comparison, we could wind the clock back to the
> early to mid-1800s, and compare the pay of slaves with that of
> plantation owners.
>
> The other point that would be lost in such a comparison, my common
> sense tells me, is that for many years -- for most of the 20th
> century, I'd expect -- ordinary workers had an opportunity to improve
> their condition and the outlook for their children's future, and
> changes tended to be incremental and gradual. I don't think American
> optimism would be the force it is if, for most people, the American
> experience was nasty, brutish and short.
>
> Today, I think its reasonable to assert that U.S. workers in many
> industries don't see an opportunity to improve their condition, and
> even worse, that changes now tend to be abrupt (e.g. "we're moving
> production to -insert country name here").
>
> There is further concern that these trends are affecting people who
> used to feel immune to the loss of jobs ... technology workers, for
> example. And I'm not talking about just call center/help desk
> employees, but people with outstanding skills in software development
> and engineering. I just drove past the abandoned Motorola site way
> outside Chicago, near the Wisconsin border. Those jobs ... gone, all
> of them. An empty, gleaming, as-new office campus.
>
> We're not going to put the globalization genie back in the bottle. We
> have a global infrastructure for technology and logistics that makes
> it possible for jobs to move around the globe, and we have a global
> economic system geared to increasing efficiency/reducing cost.
>
> So what can we do about all of the people who are viewed as "cost"
> --those in labor and, increasingly, management? Do we rely on the
> long-term wisdom and sense of equity and fairness of the people who
> decide who is "cost" and who is "value?" Is the increasing gap in
> executive compensation v. worker compensation any indication that we'd
> be wiser (but sadder, IMO) to expect short-term self-interest to drive
> behavior?
>
> This isn't just an issue for those in the manufacturing or technology
> industries. The healthcare industry treats doctors as costs, and we've
> only just begun to see migration of healthcare services overseas --
> e.g., the radiologist in Bangalore looking at an x-ray taken by a
> technican in Moline, sent as an image over the Internet.
>
> So, as you are curious about the pay gap 100+ years ago, I'm also
> curious about the changes in opportunity -- real and perceived -- that
> have occurred in the same period.
>
> But, that's far more than enough rambling from me for now.
>
>
>
>
George Lawrence
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
2091 Front Street
Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio 44221
website http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
email geo...@georgesdrumshop.com
330 940 DRUM (3786)
toll free 866 970 0800
fax 330 940 3785
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"pottedmeat42" <potted...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:17470c7a.04090...@posting.google.com...