Please! Help with my dissertation...
Gideon B Banner
Just a quick thought on this:
As for "post-modern" drummers (depending on what you define as p-m and why
you do it that way), I would definitely point to Joey Baron. In terms of
stylistic collage (the rapid shifts between punk, hardcore, straight-ahead
jazz, free stuff (a la Billy Higgins), plain backbeat rock, swing,
whathaveyou) -- in terms of the surface texture of his sound quality (his
sound doesn't have the depth of, say, Elvin Jones; Baron sticks more to
the shimmer of his cymbals, the speech of his snare -- whereas Jones
perhaps seeks to put himself through in his playing, I might say that
Baron focuses more on coherence to either a style, a mood, or a
playfulness with sound texture). Basically, his playing has less to do
with "personal expression" than with "expression of style".
And besides, he works with John Zorn, post-modern jazzman extraordinaire.
I would definitely be interested to hear more about your dissertation and
how exactly you define "pre-" and "post-modern" drumming.
Gideon Banner
Ned Potter
Okay everyone, its time to get serious. I am writing a paper which I
have studpidly titled "Aspects of the evolution of drumming from pre-
modernism to post-modernism." Now, I really need help here. I'm
basically going for the styles and techniques etc employed from the 60s
to the present day, how drummers interpreted songs, the way drum parts
have changed, the way the big name drummers have developed a fluidity
now they didn't seem to have so much in the modernist era, that kind of
thing. So can anyone give me any examples of leading figures from the
three eras (pre, modernism, and post)? Or point me to any records,
videos or books that might help me? I have plenty of ideas, but info is
thin on the ground at the moment.
Any help wold be greatly appreciated. Thanks...
--
Ned
Ned Potter
In article <Pine.GSO.3.94.971004152304.26606B-
100...@minerva.cis.yale.edu>, Gideon B Banner
<gggg...@pantheon.yale.edu> writes
need. My grasping of the terminology leads me to think that the likes of
Gadd and Cobham etc are the leading modernist era players, and Vinnie
Colaiuta is a good example of a post modernist. I say this becasue he
has a sophistication and refinement that 70s guys didn't have - I'm not
saying he is better or worse, he just thinks about drumming (and
certainly part writing) in a different way. I would probably define
"pre-" as before the 70s - it would be hard to describe the leading 60s
guys like Moon and Bonham as moderists (I might be wrong there - if so
let me know). I have some ideas, but I'm basically poking around in the
dark hence the appeal for help... Part of the trouble is that a lot of
what I write will depend very much upon personal opinion and how I
percieve the eras to be - this is why I am trying to get as many views
as possible. For me the difference between the genres is a kind of
textural thing, so I'll check out Baron's work with Zorn.
Please respond...
--
Ned
Jack Hollingsworth
Ned,
The November, 1982 issue of Modern Drummer has an article entitled "The
History of Rock Drumming: The Conclusion". The article talks about various
drummers, their styles, how they influenced rock and roll, and the bands
they played with. I just happened to be looking through some old issues of
MD the other day and ran across this article. I guess the beginning parts
of the article are in the previous issues. I haven't run across those
issues.
Hope this helps.
Jack
Ned Potter <ne...@redbyrd.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<OnIBFJAB...@redbyrd.demon.co.uk>...
> I am writing a paper which I
> have studpidly titled "Aspects of the evolution of drumming from pre-
> modernism to post-modernism." Now, I really need help here. I'm
> basically going for the styles and techniques etc employed from the 60s
> to the present day, how drummers interpreted songs, the way drum parts
> have changed, the way the big name drummers have developed a fluidity
> now they didn't seem to have so much in the modernist era, that kind of
> thing.
>
Gideon B Banner
> Thanks very much for your response - this is exactly the kind of thing I
> need. My grasping of the terminology leads me to think that the likes of
> Gadd and Cobham etc are the leading modernist era players, and Vinnie
> Colaiuta is a good example of a post modernist. I say this becasue he
> has a sophistication and refinement that 70s guys didn't have - I'm not
> saying he is better or worse, he just thinks about drumming (and
> certainly part writing) in a different way. I would probably define
> "pre-" as before the 70s - it would be hard to describe the leading 60s
> guys like Moon and Bonham as moderists (I might be wrong there - if so
> let me know). I have some ideas, but I'm basically poking around in the
> dark hence the appeal for help... Part of the trouble is that a lot of
> what I write will depend very much upon personal opinion and how I
> percieve the eras to be - this is why I am trying to get as many views
> as possible. For me the difference between the genres is a kind of
> textural thing, so I'll check out Baron's work with Zorn.
I think perhaps you need to refine your terminology. I understand where
you're going (and I think this is a great topic: there is too little
academic/conceptual writing on drumming and rhythm), but your definitions
of "modern", "pre-modern", and "post-modern" need to be precise. Dividing
people just in terms of time period may work, but the problem is not so
simple.
I come out of literary theory, so the way I know the terms "modernist" and
"post-modernist" have to do more with literature. And scholars argue to
no end over what precisely constitutes these terms. Certain authors are
generally accepted as modernists (Eliot, Woolf, Faulkner), others as
post-modern (Pynchon, Nabokov), but there are a whole mess who either fall
in between (Beckett) or don't fit anywhere (no one comes to mind at the
moment). So you need to really define what you mean by the terms you are
using. Readings into literary history and criticism might help, or even
film and art history. Although I don't know much about it, I bet there is
a good amount of scholarly writing on music that uses the terms "modern"
and "post-modern" (although most of it probably focuses on classical and
symphonic music).
You may find in the end that the terms don't really apply to the drummers.
One might say that the very idea of kit drumming is "post-modern", that
the settings in which a drum kit are used are invariably post-modern. For
example, although I've heard a number of musicians and bands called
post-modern, I've never heard anyone speak of a rock or jazz musician as
being a modernist.
I hate to complicate things like this, but it is a really big subject
you've tackled and one that is imbricated in a lot of other fields. You
topic is fantastic: I constantly get frustrated that hardly anyone writes
any scholarly stuff about drumming and rhythm, and that most music theory
and training centers around harmony and melodic stuff.
(One source that I've found interesting, that may not have much to do with
your topic, is chapter 11 of a book called _A Thousand Plateaus_ by Gilles
Deleuze and Felix Guattari (Minneapolis: Univ. of Minnesota Press, 1987).
The book is a very odd philosophical thing and is a tough read but they
say a lot of fascinating shit. Like this:
"Chaos is not the opposite of rhythm, but the milieu of all milieus.
There is rhythm whenever there is a transcoded passage from one milieu to
another, a communication of milieus, coordination between heterogeneous
space-times. Drying up, death, intrusion have rhythm. It is well known
that rhythm is not meter or cadence, even irregular meter or cadence:
there is nothing less rhythmic than a military march." And they keep
going on.
Feel free to write with more questions -- hope this helps --
Gideon
Ben Jacoby
Gideon B Banner (gggg...@pantheon.yale.edu) spake thusly:
: I think perhaps you need to refine your terminology. I understand where
: you're going (and I think this is a great topic: there is too little
: academic/conceptual writing on drumming and rhythm), but your definitions
: of "modern", "pre-modern", and "post-modern" need to be precise. Dividing
: people just in terms of time period may work, but the problem is not so
: simple.
[snip]
: You may find in the end that the terms don't really apply to the drummers.
: One might say that the very idea of kit drumming is "post-modern", that
: the settings in which a drum kit are used are invariably post-modern. For
: example, although I've heard a number of musicians and bands called
: post-modern, I've never heard anyone speak of a rock or jazz musician as
: being a modernist.
Yeah, this thing facinates me too, and I also have some kind of problem
with the period definitions. In my mind the "modern" period of drumming
starts with the jelling of the form of the drumset as used today. This is
around the time of Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa (a major figure in defining
the modern drumset and it's role in modern music). Prior to that in the
"pre-modern" period drumming even when done in the same context of pop
music tended to be rather an off-shoot of the old vaudeville drumming.
But listening to that "modern" music today sounds rather "old" and
something of a cliche. This is a clear indication that drumming is now
in a "post-modern" period. Personally I'd be hard-pressed to figure out
exactly who and when made this change, but then that's what you are
trying to figure out. :)
On the other hand, you seem to be restricting your considerations to the
rock and roll period, which in my opinion doesn't quite match the
development levels of the modern drumset the way the larger grouping
does, but it does still work. To me the rather simple and straight
drumming of say Halley's comets or other 50's rock bands are a direct
off-shoot of the previous "modern" drummers and also well represent the
modern period.
But you wish to start with the 60's and I'm wondering if by then the slide
into post-modern drumming had not already begun. I would not be at all
surprised if the entire period you are talking about is really *all*
post-modern. Maybe someone else can render a few opinions on this. It
is a very interesting question, however.
--
Benjamin Jacoby | "Some rob you with a six-gun and some with
| a fountain pen." ..........Woodie Guthrie
(SPAM GUARD! Delete the no spam letters in name to email.)
Matthew Gaither
Ned Potter (ne...@redbyrd.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Okay everyone, its time to get serious. I am writing a paper which I
: have studpidly titled "Aspects of the evolution of drumming from pre-
: modernism to post-modernism." Now, I really need help here. I'm
: basically going for the styles and techniques etc employed from the 60s
: to the present day, how drummers interpreted songs, the way drum parts
: have changed, the way the big name drummers have developed a fluidity
: now they didn't seem to have so much in the modernist era, that kind of
: three eras (pre, modernism, and post)? Or point me to any records,
: videos or books that might help me? I have plenty of ideas, but info is
: thin on the ground at the moment.
: Any help wold be greatly appreciated. Thanks...
: --
: Ned
I'm not sure what your defining here in terms of the age of modernism.
To me it seems that pre-mod could cover the times when the slaves were
not allowed to have drums up to the invention of the vaudville trapset
or the drummers who developed new meaning to the words percussion
when they played for the silent movie soundtracks. The modern era
could include the turn of the century up to WWII, with the developement
of swing, big band, and modern jazz. Post-modern, could it start with
the introduction of boogie-woogie/rock and roll? I don't know where you
should draw the lines here, any place will work if you're concise in your
approach.
Good luck.
--
-matt
Gaither Custom Drums gai...@sas.upenn.edu
1325 N. 5th Street, Studio 1D http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~gaither
Philadelphia, Pa. 19122
(215)235-4313
Chris 'Coz' Costello
In article <OnIBFJAB...@redbyrd.demon.co.uk>,
Ned Potter <ne...@redbyrd.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Okay everyone, its time to get serious. I am writing a paper which I
>have studpidly titled "Aspects of the evolution of drumming from pre-
>modernism to post-modernism."
I think you're going to get into trouble immediately if you try to
span genres. I would say the "modernist" movement in jazz was probably
the leat 50's or early 60's in jazz, primarily with the rise of be-bop
and guys like Elvin, Max, and Tony. In rock and roll, that's a period
that I would consider "pre-modern," with the early stages of rock
(Bill Haley, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, that sort of thing) up
to and including the Beatles and the Rolling Stones. Perhaps John
Bonham would the turning point for "modernism" in rock, but then I
have a hard time conceptualizing "post-modern" drumming in rock. The
field has become considerably homogenized.
If you try to consider the two together, I think you'ro going to
have a tough time establishing your turning point for modernism.
Even extending to a range of years could be a problem, as I would
say that modernism in jazz was over before modernism in rock had
even started.
I'm also not sure about Vinnie as post-modernist poster child.
I see him as more of a refiner of many genres than a definer
of one. While I agree that he's great, you can trace so much
of what he does back to modernist or even pre-modernist drumming
as I think you've defined it. He just does it better. I'd
say that he's outside of the whole argument, which is something
someone mentioned when they drew parallels to literature.
Anyway, that's my initial thinking on it, for whatever it's worth.
Later,
COZ
NP: Charles Mingus, _Epitaph_
--
+--
| Chris 'Coz' Costello / "Hipness is transient. You have to
| http://www.tezcat.com/~coz / change in order to be continually |
c...@tezcat.com / hip." - Vinnie Colaiuta |
---+
Ned Potter
In article <61doe6$k...@xochi.tezcat.com>, Chris 'Coz' Costello
<c...@xochi.tezcat.com> writes
>In article <OnIBFJAB...@redbyrd.demon.co.uk>,
>Ned Potter <ne...@redbyrd.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Okay everyone, its time to get serious. I am writing a paper which I
>>have studpidly titled "Aspects of the evolution of drumming from pre-
>>modernism to post-modernism."
>
>I think you're going to get into trouble immediately if you try to
>span genres. I would say the "modernist" movement in jazz was probably
>the leat 50's or early 60's in jazz, primarily with the rise of be-bop
>and guys like Elvin, Max, and Tony. In rock and roll, that's a period
>that I would consider "pre-modern," with the early stages of rock
>(Bill Haley, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, that sort of thing) up
>to and including the Beatles and the Rolling Stones. Perhaps John
>Bonham would the turning point for "modernism" in rock, but then I
>have a hard time conceptualizing "post-modern" drumming in rock. The
>field has become considerably homogenized.
All very good points, all of which destroy my exciting title...:)
>If you try to consider the two together, I think you'ro going to
>have a tough time establishing your turning point for modernism.
>Even extending to a range of years could be a problem, as I would
>say that modernism in jazz was over before modernism in rock had
>even started.
Probably true. I can subdivide the paper into the different genres of
drumming, but anyway the problem of 'just what is post modernism?' still
remains.
>I'm also not sure about Vinnie as post-modernist poster child.
>I see him as more of a refiner of many genres than a definer
>of one. While I agree that he's great, you can trace so much
>of what he does back to modernist or even pre-modernist drumming
>as I think you've defined it. He just does it better. I'd
>say that he's outside of the whole argument, which is something
>someone mentioned when they drew parallels to literature.
I see your point - but perhaps the refinement of genres is the closest
drumming gets to new genres... Vinnie takes the works of Gadd and co and
refines and develops it, which is exactly why I think of Gadd as a
modernist and Vinnie as a post modernist - he takes what has gone before
and takes it further onto a contempory level. Part of post-modernsim
(for me) is the apt application of various techniques, be they pre
modernist, modernist, whatever. As I said in one of my earlier replys,
the use of this terminology is perhaps a bit melodramatic anyway.
>Anyway, that's my initial thinking on it, for whatever it's worth.
>
>Later,
>COZ
>
>NP: Charles Mingus, _Epitaph_
Thankyou again for your help. I think you have all convinced me that a
title change is in order.
--
Ned
Ned Potter
In article <61crd6$4c9$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, Matthew Gaither
<gai...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> writes
>Ned Potter (ne...@redbyrd.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>: Okay everyone, its time to get serious. I am writing a paper which I
>: have studpidly titled "Aspects of the evolution of drumming from pre-
>: basically going for the styles and techniques etc employed from the 60s
>: to the present day, how drummers interpreted songs, the way drum parts
>: have changed, the way the big name drummers have developed a fluidity
>: now they didn't seem to have so much in the modernist era, that kind of
>: thing. So can anyone give me any examples of leading figures from the
>: three eras (pre, modernism, and post)? Or point me to any records,
>: videos or books that might help me? I have plenty of ideas, but info is
>: thin on the ground at the moment.
>
>: Any help wold be greatly appreciated. Thanks...
>: --
>: Ned
>
> I'm not sure what your defining here in terms of the age of modernism.
>To me it seems that pre-mod could cover the times when the slaves were
>not allowed to have drums up to the invention of the vaudville trapset
>or the drummers who developed new meaning to the words percussion
>when they played for the silent movie soundtracks. The modern era
>could include the turn of the century up to WWII, with the developement
>of swing, big band, and modern jazz. Post-modern, could it start with
>the introduction of boogie-woogie/rock and roll? I don't know where you
>should draw the lines here, any place will work if you're concise in your
>approach.
Yeah - therein lies the problem. It is hard to be concise when there is
little literary work that discusses drumming in these terms. So I have
to change my terms. Any suggestions?
> Good luck.
>--
>-matt
>
>Gaither Custom Drums gai...@sas.upenn.edu
>1325 N. 5th Street, Studio 1D http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~gaither
>Philadelphia, Pa. 19122
>(215)235-4313
>
--
Ned
Ned Potter
In article <Pine.GSO.3.94.971006191756.27506C-
>> need. My grasping of the terminology leads me to think that the likes of
>> Gadd and Cobham etc are the leading modernist era players, and Vinnie
>> Colaiuta is a good example of a post modernist. I say this becasue he
>> has a sophistication and refinement that 70s guys didn't have - I'm not
>> saying he is better or worse, he just thinks about drumming (and
>> certainly part writing) in a different way. I would probably define
>> "pre-" as before the 70s - it would be hard to describe the leading 60s
>> guys like Moon and Bonham as moderists (I might be wrong there - if so
>> let me know). I have some ideas, but I'm basically poking around in the
>> dark hence the appeal for help... Part of the trouble is that a lot of
>> what I write will depend very much upon personal opinion and how I
>> percieve the eras to be - this is why I am trying to get as many views
>> as possible. For me the difference between the genres is a kind of
>> textural thing, so I'll check out Baron's work with Zorn.
Thankyou all very much for your help - I think the easiest thing is if I
reply to each post rather than one big thankyou at the end...
>I think perhaps you need to refine your terminology. I understand where
>you're going (and I think this is a great topic: there is too little
>academic/conceptual writing on drumming and rhythm), but your definitions
>of "modern", "pre-modern", and "post-modern" need to be precise. Dividing
>people just in terms of time period may work, but the problem is not so
>simple.
You're probably right. It seems to me that describing drumming as 'post-
modernist' or whatever is a bit melodramatic- the state of drumming
hardly reflects the state of the capatlist world does it... Maybe I
should just change the title and eliminate the reference to modernism.
"The Evolution of aspects of drumset playing from the 60s to the late
90s" or something like that.
>I come out of literary theory, so the way I know the terms "modernist" and
>"post-modernist" have to do more with literature. And scholars argue to
>no end over what precisely constitutes these terms. Certain authors are
>generally accepted as modernists (Eliot, Woolf, Faulkner), others as
>post-modern (Pynchon, Nabokov), but there are a whole mess who either fall
>in between (Beckett) or don't fit anywhere (no one comes to mind at the
>moment). So you need to really define what you mean by the terms you are
>using. Readings into literary history and criticism might help, or even
>film and art history. Although I don't know much about it, I bet there is
>a good amount of scholarly writing on music that uses the terms "modern"
>and "post-modern" (although most of it probably focuses on classical and
>symphonic music).
There certainly is a lot - and again it seems to rather trivialise the
drumming version. Modernism came at the start of the century as a kind
of reaction to the late 19th century (Mahler, Wagner etc) and featured
composers like Stravinksy, Webern, etc and, confusingly, continues right
up to now (Stockhausen) despite the existance of post modernism (i.e
minimalism - Steve Reich, John Cage)...! So, er, basically the drum
definitions are a just that - words used to describe different stages,
and unfortunatly there isn't really enough to go on in this area and
there are no fixed periods or players by any stretch of the imagination.
So I'm screwed, basically...:)
>
>You may find in the end that the terms don't really apply to the drummers.
>One might say that the very idea of kit drumming is "post-modern", that
>the settings in which a drum kit are used are invariably post-modern.
Thats taking it too far to be productive, really (I don't mean that
offensivly). I'm focusing on the developements within drumming, so I
can't really analyse the concept as a whole.
> For
>example, although I've heard a number of musicians and bands called
>post-modern, I've never heard anyone speak of a rock or jazz musician as
>being a modernist.
>
>I hate to complicate things like this, but it is a really big subject
>you've tackled and one that is imbricated in a lot of other fields. You
>topic is fantastic: I constantly get frustrated that hardly anyone writes
>any scholarly stuff about drumming and rhythm, and that most music theory
>and training centers around harmony and melodic stuff.
Having said that, 'melodic stuff' plays an important part in my personal
definitions. For me, post modernists are melodic drummers (such as Manu
Katche, for instance) and all the guys on ECM (like Erskine) are post
modern in that it is basically a post modern record label and they all
drum fairly melodically (like Paul Motion). Interestingly, if you check
out DeJohnette's work with Herbie Hancock at the moment it is very busy,
very contempory, but not especially melodic. However, a lot of his stuff
on ECM is more refelective and melodic. But ignore that...
>
>(One source that I've found interesting, that may not have much to do with
>your topic, is chapter 11 of a book called _A Thousand Plateaus_ by Gilles
>Deleuze and Felix Guattari (Minneapolis: Univ. of Minnesota Press, 1987).
>The book is a very odd philosophical thing and is a tough read but they
>say a lot of fascinating shit. Like this:
>
>"Chaos is not the opposite of rhythm, but the milieu of all milieus.
>There is rhythm whenever there is a transcoded passage from one milieu to
>another, a communication of milieus, coordination between heterogeneous
>space-times. Drying up, death, intrusion have rhythm. It is well known
>that rhythm is not meter or cadence, even irregular meter or cadence:
>there is nothing less rhythmic than a military march." And they keep
>going on.
>
>Feel free to write with more questions -- hope this helps --
>Gideon
>
It did help - thankyou very much. So are there any alternative tites...?
--
Ned
Fraser Stowe
Maybe I should just change the title and eliminate the reference to modernism.
"The Evolution of aspects of drumset playing from the 60s to the late
90s" or something like that.
This is what you need to do- sorry-should do. I think you've already
decided this, but I thought I'd be another cheerleader for it (tri-tom
player for it?).
this way you can get to writing about the nitty gritty that you want to
talk about, rather than "By post-modern we are defining the genreŠŠ"
It may seem a little too wide open right now, but rough draft your
dissert. and title it based on what you've written rather than writing to
fulfill a title. I know you need a goal/direction, etc. but you seem to
have it.
What is this for? PhD? Just writing and presenting (I don't really mean JUST)?
Cool. Good luck.
From a kit drummer (19 yrs), tri-tom player (not lately) and writing tutor.
--
-Fraser
"I used to be disgusted; now I try to be amused."
--E.(D.P.A.M.) Costello