preferred drum notation for repeat bars?

[ll0...@yahoo.com]

Drummers, how do you prefer to see multiple bars of swing time (or other repeated pattern)? One-bar repeats, slash measures, something like a multi-measure rest with a style written above it, or something else? I was thinking it might be tedious to keep track of many lines of slashes or repeat bars, especially during a solo when there are no written rhythms.

[Garry B@teranews.com]

I'm not a drummer but I write repeats and add numbers in brackets under the
staff so the drummer can keep track of repeats played.
Example here:-
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3449356/Repeats-Drums.pdf
(17Kb download - rotate in Acrobat Reader to read).

--
Barry Graham
Melbourne, Australia

[Ken Mathieson]

I am a drummer and also do a lot of arranging, so I can tell you that
endless pages of repeat bars rapidly become unreadable, as the drummer loses
track of where he is in the chart. Easily the best way is to follow the
geography of the chart and break the drum part down chorus by chorus with a
narrative cue at the start of the passage (e.g. tenor solo, ensemble etc).
If a particular feel is required, write a simple sample of the pattern and
then write on the stave "PLAY SIM X BARS," X being the number of bars to the
end of the passage. If the feel is repeated in the next section, just write
the "PLAY SIM X BARS" instruction. If specific phrasing is required (e.g.
playing hits along with the brass) write them on the snare drum line (3rd
space) and the drummer will play them while keeping the time going on the
cymbals.

It's not that drummers are stupid or can't count, it's often a fact that
arrangers doesn't really understand how to write simply and clearly for a
drummer simply because they don't play the instrument themselves. I've seen
stuff that was unplayable which had been written by someone who ought to
have known better. Too much information is just as bad as too little, so for
me the golden rule is "don't write the drummer into a straitjacket." You
want his playing to flow, propel the band and follow the geography of the
chart, which isn't going to happen if he's trying to figure out how to play
some complex writing or figure out where the band is in the chart since he
lost the will to live after counting 99 repeat bars without cues. The other
thing is that you never know for sure who is going to be playing drums on
your chart, so keeping it simple never fails. An experienced drummer will
flesh out a simple part and make it sound better than you could write it and
a less experienced drummer will have enough information to stay on track
with the band without losing the place.

Ken Mathieson

"Garry B...@teranews.com" <btgr...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:ll0kt.8771$KI6....@newsfe09.iad...

[ll0...@yahoo.com]

Thanks for the info. So when breaking down by section, would a multimeasure rest-type block work well, with the style written in as you said, or is there a better way? I couldn't find many examples online.

[Joey Goldstein]

On 05-13-13 7:14 PM, ll0...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Thanks for the info. So when breaking down by section, would a multimeasure rest-type block work well, with the style written in as you said, or is there a better way? I couldn't find many examples online.
>

|----- 8 ------|
That's one standard way to enter in a multi-measure rest that specifies
the number of measure.

The other way uses a solid block of black ink between the two outer
"fins" with the number of measures written above the middle of the block.

Use of double bar lines, rehearsal letters, and text descriptions helps
the player know where he is in the arrangement.

I.e.
This is better:

Horns Guit solo Tutti
|----- 8 ------| | |----- 8 ------| | |----- 8 ------|

than this

|------ 24 --------| |

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JoeyGoldstein>

[Ken Mathieson]

Hi All,

There's no universal way of writing a "play 8" instruction. In my experience
Joey's |----- 8 ------| might be interpreted as both "play 8" or "tacet 8,"
which is why I write it as "play 8" or, if I want tacet, I'd write
|----- 8 ------| but with the dotted horizontal line replaced by a solid
black line. Whatever you decide to use, stick with it and your drummer will
soon learn your intention. Consistency and clarity should be paramount.

Also Joey's suggestion of

Horns Guit solo Tutti
> |----- 8 ------| | |----- 8 ------| | |----- 8 ------|

is what I was driving at when I wrote "...follow the geography of the chart
and break the drum part down chorus by chorus..." Any drummer worth his
salt will change the volume and cymbal sound when there's a switch from
backing, say, trumpet to backing, say, piano, so it's important to give him
clues about what's coming up so he can be right on it. Use of rehearsal
letters in your charts can help everyone if things go wrong - it's easier to
find "Letter G" than "Bar 171" every time. I've seen charts by famous
arrangers with confusing bar numbering, no double lines to show the end of
sections, no dynamics marked and no annotation of who is soloing or tuttis
etc, so it makes sense to avoid confusion and make everything
understandable. This becomes doubly important if you don't know the players
who will be playing your chart.

Also, I use colour coding to help navigation for the entire band, not just
drums: I highlight dynamics in yellow, minor geography (like repeat sign at
the start of a passage and the 2nd time sign, also I flag up where a soloist
is meant to enter and finish a solo) in orange so it's easy to find your way
backwards and forwards on repeats and get in and out on time when it's your
solo. Major geography (e.g. D.S and Coda signs) is highlighted in red.
Simple stuff like that is absolutely crucial if you expect your players to
sight-read on the gig without rehearsal and still avoid trainwrecks.

Ken Mathieson

[ll0...@yahoo.com]

Thanks!

[Joey Goldstein]

On 05-13-13 8:29 PM, Ken Mathieson wrote:

> Joey's |----- 8 ------| might be interpreted as both "play 8" or "tacet 8,"

Right.
Sorry 'bout that.
What I wrote out was the standard way to notate multi-measure *rests*.
For some reason I got it into my head that that's what the OP was asking
about, but that's not what he was asking about.

At any rate, the notational conventions for multi-measure rests and for
"play time" on drums parts are similar.
As Ken has said, add the text above the staff with the multi-measure
rest, "Play time - 8 bars", along with the rehearsal letters and other
text info, and most drummers will know what to do.

On the other hand, if you want to notate repeat bars or multi-measure
repeats of a figure that has been written in standard notation then
there are other conventions for notating those types of repeats.
This is harder to show in ascii text but a single measure repeat looks
like a horizontal slash running through the first repeat measure with
dots on either side of the slash.
Something like this:
'/,
That means, "repeat the material that was notated in the previous measure.

For repeats of 2 bars there are 2 horizontal slashes across the middle
barline of the 2 measures with single dots on either side of the slashes
and a "2" written above the barline.
Kinda like this, but with a barline under the 2 that the 2 slashes go
through.
The 2 dots are on either side of the barline.
2
| '//, |

The same idea works for 4 measure repeats, (use 4 slashes across the
middle barline and the number 4) and 8 measure repeats (use 8 slashes
and an 8).
Repeats of 3, 5, 6, 7, etc. measures don't really parse so well with
this notation though because symmetrical placement of the slashes within
the repeated measures becomes skewed.

[Joey Goldstein]

On 05-14-13 9:48 AM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> At any rate, the notational conventions for multi-measure rests and for
> "play time" on drums parts are similar.
> As Ken has said, add the text above the staff with the multi-measure
> rest, "Play time - 8 bars", along with the rehearsal letters and other
> text info, and most drummers will know what to do.

More often then not the writer will not use what looks like a
multi-measure rest for this.
He'll just write the text, "play 8 bars" (or whatever # of bars) right
on the staff itself (or above the staff) within what looks like a single
long measure - with a squiggly line following the text that runs to the
end of the long measure.

[Ken Mathieson]

Hi Joey,

I've had to play some very badly written drum parts in charts written by
very big names in arranging. Maybe there's a small book on writing drum
parts needed, or maybe we've just written most of it in this thread! I've
never had the chance to play a Louie Bellson or an Alan Ganley chart, but
I'd love to see how they wrote for drums.

Ken Mathieson

"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:d2092$51924172$adceea0b$91...@PRIMUS.CA...

[Joey Goldstein]

Hi Ken

I studied arranging a bit when I was a kid at Berklee.
Since then, I always use Russell Garcia's book (I forget the title) as a
reference for this sort of thing.
I'm told that there are other good arranging books out there too.
Inside The Score, My First Chart (might be the title of the Garcia
book?), Gordon Delamont, etc.

On 05-14-13 10:00 AM, Ken Mathieson wrote:
> Hi Joey,
>
> I've had to play some very badly written drum parts in charts written by
> very big names in arranging. Maybe there's a small book on writing drum
> parts needed, or maybe we've just written most of it in this thread! I've
> never had the chance to play a Louie Bellson or an Alan Ganley chart, but
> I'd love to see how they wrote for drums.
>
> Ken Mathieson

[Garry B@teranews.com]

"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message

news:8de56$519249ed$adceea0b$28...@PRIMUS.CA...

> Since then, I always use Russell Garcia's book (I forget the title) as a
> reference for this sort of thing.

Joey:
Russell Garcia's book is "The Professional Arranger Composer".
My well-worn copy is 55 years old.