What are You Listening to These Days?

Nicole Massey

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Dec 11, 2011, 3:46:56 PM12/11/11

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Since the newsgroup is showing less life than Bunny Berigan's career at this
point, I figured I'd ask what folks here are currently listening to in the
Jazz department.

Jazz Guy

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Dec 11, 2011, 6:25:58 PM12/11/11

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This is probably the first time I've popped into this group in the 23
years that I've been reading / writing to usenet.

I was just checking out a new NNTP server and was looking for all the
jazz groups, specifically the binary ones, and going through the results
one by one. This group had some posts in it, so I decided to pop in,
and low and behold - saw your question.

I'm basically listening to anything that seems mildly interesting that I
download from here:

http://avaxhome.ws/music/jazz

which I've been doing for the past 2 or 3 years.

I tend to focus on stuff that was written/composed post 1980, and some
of the older stuff (jazz fusion - weather report, etc) I also listen to.

So basically what you'd call jazz fusion, and smooth jazz (but not
Kenny-G sleep jazz). In no particular order (except alphabetic I
guess):

Acoustic Alchemy
Azymuth
Bob James
Boney James
Cabo Frio
Dave Grusin
Dave Valintin
Earl Klugh
Fourplay
George Howard
Incognito
Jean Luc Ponty
Jeff Lorber
Larry Carlton
Larry Coryell
Lee Ritenour
Manhatten Transfer
Nelson Rangell
Passport
Pat Metheny
Rick Braun
Shakatak
Spyro Gyra
Stanley Clarke
Steps Ahead
Swing Out Sister
The Rippingtons
Yellowjackets

Nicole Massey

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Dec 11, 2011, 10:24:16 PM12/11/11

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"Jazz Guy" <Ja...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4EE53C06...@Guy.com...

I can agree with you on several of those. I'm also listening to all three of
Rare Silk's albums, (I ripped them from cassette and cleaned up the sound)
along with Basia's stuff for the more modern stuff. I'm also listening to
any Miles I can get my hands on, Charlie Christian, and a lot of big band
stuff. Basie is always a good bet, as is Woody Herman. And for female
singers it's all about Ella and Astrud, with a bit of Anita O'Day thrown in.
I'm also interested in getting some of Marilyn Monroe's vocal stuff -- I
heard some of it on a program recently and found it quite nice, not your
typical actress trying to be a singer stuff, but with some real skill. She
was also a big advocate for Ella.

I've got Dave Weckl's album Hard Wired that makes the playlist fairly often,
and I love Weather Report. I'm planning on grabbing Mingus, Monk, Bill
Evans, and New York Voices when I get a chance, too.

If you like vocal jazz the Rare Silk is a good find -- a bit of bop
sensibility along with some interesting modern stuff. Their version of Red
Clay off their third album, New Weave, is wonderful, and they do some
wonderful harmonies on their acapella stuff.

Jazz Guy

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Dec 11, 2011, 11:22:23 PM12/11/11

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Nicole Massey wrote:

> > I tend to focus on stuff that was written/composed post 1980,
>

> I can agree with you on several of those. I'm also listening to all
> three of Rare Silk's albums

I don't think I've ever heard them (or of them) - but I see they've
worked with the Brecker brothers.

I'm not into vocal jazz that much, but for what it's worth, I do listen
to:

Swing out sister
Everything but the girl
Manhattan Transfer
Basia
Perri Sisters
Incognito
Micheal Franks
Steely Dan
Gil Scott Heron
Tania Maria
Kool & The Gang
Earth Wind & Fire

> I've got Dave Weckl's album Hard Wired that makes the playlist
> fairly often,

I don't have any of his work (not as a leader anyways) but I'm sure he's
on some of my GRP and Chick Corea stuff.

> and I love Weather Report.

The WR stuff that I like, I really like. But it's probably only about
10 or 20% of their total work that I like.

The worst garbage I think I've ever heard on a CD was their "I sing the
body electric".

> I'm planning on grabbing Mingus, Monk, Bill Evans, and New York
> Voices when I get a chance, too.

I downloaded New York Voices - Collection (1994) a few months ago.
Probably listened to it only once.

> If you like vocal jazz the Rare Silk is a good find --
> a bit of bop sensibility along with some interesting modern stuff.
> Their version of Red Clay off their third album, New Weave

> is wonderful

I have Freddie Hubbard's Red Clay, and I have heard a vocal version of
it at some point (probably from listening to Detroit's 105.9 WJZZ back
in the mid 1980's).

And - wouldn't ya know it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCAFgerB4qQ

I swear I did not know about this being on youtube - and it even
mentions WJZZ! I have that same WJZZ peel-off sticker!

Your post reminded me of something I downloaded just yesterday:

http://avaxhome.ws/music/jazz/sethmacfarlane11.html

I think you'd like it of you like that 50's and 60's jazz vocal style
(Frank Sinatra or Mel Torme).

Nicole Massey

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Dec 12, 2011, 8:29:07 AM12/12/11

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"Jazz Guy" <Ja...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4EE5817F...@Guy.com...

Yeah, that's the Rare Silk version from the album. Now I'm curious about the
visuals on it, as I'm blind, so I can't see what they put over the music.

I like Swing Out Sister's first three albums, but something went out of
their music when they got the band instead of doing all the parts
themselves.

I've gotten more into singers in the past few years. I've also sought out
any Urbie Green I can find, as he has both chops and tone, and he makes some
interesting song decisions.

Henry Law

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Dec 12, 2011, 1:16:25 PM12/12/11

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On 11/12/11 23:25, Jazz Guy wrote:
> So basically what you'd call jazz fusion, and smooth jazz (but not
> Kenny-G sleep jazz). In no particular order (except alphabetic I
> guess):
>
> Acoustic Alchemy
> Azymuth
> Bob James

...

This is a really useful thread! Time was that my USENET reader
subscriptions would take an hour to get through most days; now it's five
minutes. Where's it all happening? FoobBook and Clatter I suppose.

--

Henry Law Manchester, England

Nicole Massey

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Dec 12, 2011, 3:27:00 PM12/12/11

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"Henry Law" <ne...@lawshouse.org> wrote in message
news:VpednZRFysJn2XvT...@giganews.com...

Yeah, and Fora on the web, along with mailing lists. Having the main ISP's
in the states drop Usenet access killed a lot of it a couple of years ago.

Still, I can't believe only three or four people reqad this forum now.

Jazz Guy

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Dec 12, 2011, 11:30:40 PM12/12/11

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Nicole Massey wrote:

> > I'm not into vocal jazz that much, but for what it's worth, I do
> > listen to:

I forgot to put Al jarreau on that list.

> > Your post reminded me of something I downloaded just yesterday:

Since maybe you didn't see that, it's a new CD by Seth Macfarlane -
creator of "Family Guy" cartoon TV show.

> Yeah, that's the Rare Silk version from the album. Now I'm curious
> about the visuals on it, as I'm blind, so I can't see what they put
> over the music.

Just a static image of the WJZZ station logo.

> I've also sought out any Urbie Green I can find,

Well, I found this:

Urbie Green Big Band - Complete 1956-1959 Recordings [2CD] (Remastered
Edition 2007)

http://avaxhome.ws/music/jazz/big_band_swing/Urbie_Green_Big_Band_-_Complete_1956_-_1959_Recordings_2CD_Remastered_Edition_2007.html

The filesonic links are still working.

So he's a trombone player - that's what I played in high school...

Nicole Massey

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Dec 13, 2011, 5:18:31 AM12/13/11

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"Jazz Guy" <Ja...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4EE6D4F0...@Guy.com...

Me too, along with Euphonium. Only did Trombone and voice in college.

Urbie is in my opinion about the best trombonist we've seen. JJ is solid,
but he didn't own the instrument like Urbie did, and Bill Watrous seemed
too much like a sport trombonist to me -- more of a frustrated tenor sax
player. Monster chops and trombonistic technique are where it's at, not
gymnastics.

Richard Watkin

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Dec 14, 2011, 7:12:19 AM12/14/11

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"Henry Law" <ne...@lawshouse.org> wrote in message
news:VpednZRFysJn2XvT...@giganews.com...

Hi All.
Jazz fm, Jazz stations on the computer, radio I O etc, and C. D.s,
That makes five people now.

Richard M. Watkin. Widnes, England.

Steen

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Dec 14, 2011, 1:43:23 PM12/14/11

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Good to see this group coming to life again. I listen to

Asylum Street Spankers
Big Bad Voodoo Daddy
The Brian Setzer Orchestra
Caro Emerald
Cherry Poppin' Daddies
Colin James (when he's swinging)
The Greyboy Allstars
Jamie Cullum
Jeff Healey (on his two jazz albums)
Joolz Holland
Marcus Miller
Matt Dusk
Michael Bublé
Royal Crown Revue
Squirrel Nut Zippers
Trombone Shorty
Victor Wooten

In short - a lot of weird stuff
--
Steen

Nicole Massey

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Dec 14, 2011, 5:22:49 PM12/14/11

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"Steen" <ist...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jcaqo6$4qc$1...@dont-email.me...

Could be weirder. I didn't see any Ornette Coleman, Richard Abarams, John
Hollenbeck, or Sun Ra on that list.

In college I had a professor who was hard into the non-musical jazz stuff,
stuff geared more for academics instead of listeners, and he was always
pushing that stuff on us. I guess he, like so many others, forgot the lesson
of Schoenberg -- the music is for listners, not for the theoriticians, and
unless it appeals to the masses the masses will find something else and
leave such endeavors in a backwater.

If you like Victor Wooten then you'd probably like what Bela Fleck is doing,
as he plays with Bela Fleck.

Jazz Guy

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Dec 14, 2011, 6:29:46 PM12/14/11

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Steen wrote:

> Good to see this group coming to life again. I listen to
>

> Trombone Shorty

I downloaded "Trombone Shorty - Backatown (2010)" back in May 2010.
Probably only listened to it once. I've fired up the title track just
now as I type this. Is this what they call "hard bop" ? Has that
urban, Nu Jazz sort of feel.

> Victor Wooten

Speaking of Wooten, I downloaded this just a couple months ago:

Scott Henderson, Steve Smith, Victor Wooten - Vital Tech Tones (1998)

I didn't like it.

Nicole Massey wrote:

> If you like Victor Wooten then you'd probably like what Bela Fleck
> is doing, as he plays with Bela Fleck.

Yea, I've got a few of Fleck's CD's, plus a few that I've downloaded. I
think I first encountered him when I stumbled across the music-video for
Vix-9. Sounds very "spacy", all the more so when I play it in the dark,
in 5-channel "stereo" mode through my denon receiver.

> In short - a lot of weird stuff

> Steen

I'll throw a curve ball here and suggest this quirky album:

===============

Artist: Audio Lotion
Title Of Album: Bad Timing
Year Of Release: 28 May 2010
Label: Mole Listening Pearls / mole #095-4
Genre: Nu-Jazz, Downtempo, Lounge

For more than ten years, Audio Lotion have been inspiring the press to
storms of superlatives: The perfect lounge sound, Music that belongs to
the daily needs like eating and drinking, Absolutely necessary for heart
and ears, Refreshing, Pleasant, Relaxing, Sensual, and Sexy. And as the
icing on the cake, Audio Lotion’s music found its way into the queen of
lifestyle TV series: Sex and the City.

However, their fifth album - Bad Timing - deserved even more
superlatives: the duo from Zurich puts into motion a one-hour power
plant of feelings. A musical thriller that sends a neuronal firework
from the brain stem into the cortex and produces fantastic images and
stories. Bad Timing is eustress with its most positive (scientifically
proven) effects on body and soul. The album motivates and stimulates.

The biggest compliment for Audio Lotions’ new album could be described
as inspiration. Bad Timing has the potential for a masterpiece, the
potential for inspiring and influencing other artists in their work. The
energy of a piece of art creates new energy for new works of art. Be it
design, painting, sculptures, literature, music or film. Not only
artists in a creative crisis should free up front row space for Audio
Lotion’s Bad Timing in their first-aid album shelf.

Steen

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Dec 15, 2011, 5:25:51 AM12/15/11

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On 2011-12-14 22:22:49 +0000, Nicole Massey said:
>
> If you like Victor Wooten then you'd probably like what Bela Fleck is
> doing, as he plays with Bela Fleck.

You're right on, I completely forgot Bela Fleck & The Flecktones.
Cool band with lots of crossover references
--
Steen

Steen

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Dec 15, 2011, 5:54:44 AM12/15/11

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> Now with music links. I guess you all have Spotify. There is a free
> version and a paid version.
I'm not a fan of downloading from pirate sites

> Asylum Street Spankers
http://cleanify.net/play/track/asylum-street-spankers/digga-digga-do
> Big Bad Voodoo Daddy
http://cleanify.net/play/track/big-bad-voodoo-daddy/king-of-swing
> The Brian Setzer Orchestra
http://cleanify.net/play/track/the-brian-setzer-orchestra/pennsylvania-6-5000
> Caro Emerald
http://cleanify.net/play/track/caro-emerald/that-man
> Cherry Poppin' Daddies
http://cleanify.net/play/track/cherry-poppin-daddies/swingin-with-tiger-woods-the-big-swing

> Colin James (when he's swinging)

http://cleanify.net/play/track/colin-james/surely-i-love-you
> The Greyboy Allstars
http://cleanify.net/play/track/the-greyboy-allstars/what-happened-to-tv
> Jamie Cullum
http://cleanify.net/play/track/jamie-cullum/mind-trick

> Jeff Healey (on his two jazz albums)

>
> In short - a lot of weird stuff

Check it out
--
Steen

Steen

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Dec 15, 2011, 12:25:44 PM12/15/11

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On 2011-12-14 23:29:46 +0000, Jazz Guy said:

> Steen wrote:
>
>> In short - a lot of weird stuff
>> Steen
>
> I'll throw a curve ball here and suggest this quirky album:
> ===============
> Artist: Audio Lotion
> Title Of Album: Bad Timing
> Year Of Release: 28 May 2010
> Label: Mole Listening Pearls / mole #095-4
> Genre: Nu-Jazz, Downtempo, Lounge

You can listen to Audio Lotion – Bad Timing right here:
http://open.spotify.com/album/7xup126jFp2ciq1EQzxxsA
--
Steen

Jazz Guy

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Dec 15, 2011, 5:51:44 PM12/15/11

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Steen wrote:

> You can listen right here:
> spotify.com

Same old streaming protected-content-geo-blocked-garbage.

For one thing, I'm not in the US.

Second, you can't seem to install spotify software on windows 98.

There's nothing like having your own copy. It *always* works.

Steen

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Dec 16, 2011, 10:29:03 AM12/16/11

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Jazz Guy <Ja...@Guy.com> wrote:
> Steen wrote:
>
>> You can listen right here:
>> spotify.com
>
> Same old streaming protected-content-geo-blocked-garbage.
>
> For one thing, I'm not in the US.

Neither am I, Spotify covers a lot of countries.

>
> Second, you can't seem to install spotify software on windows 98.

Sounds strange, but you can't win everytime.

>
> There's nothing like having your own copy. It *always* works.

Why not pay for it then, instead of posting pirate links and encourage
stealing?
--
Steen via iPhonei

Steen

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Dec 16, 2011, 4:15:25 PM12/16/11

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Jazz Guy <Ja...@Guy.com> wrote:

> For one thing, I'm not in the US.

Spotify covers Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, the
Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, USA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_music_streaming_services#Full-lengt
h_music_streaming_services

> Second, you can't seem to install spotify software on windows 98.

Apparently you're wrong
www.downsoft.com/windows/windows-audio-and-video/windows-audio-player/sp
otify-0320-26285.html

--
Steen

Jazz Guy

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Dec 16, 2011, 8:17:18 PM12/16/11

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Steen wrote:

> > Second, you can't seem to install spotify software on windows 98.
>
> Apparently you're wrong

No, I'm right.

I followed that link you gave. I've followed other similar links for
older versions of this spotify software - that claims to be win-98
compatible.

I also have KernelEx - which hooks into Kernel32 to provide many NT/XP
API functions that allows win-98 to run a lot of software that
advertizes itself as requiring 2K/XP or higher.

The installation file sourced from your link does gives a stark "This
software requires Windows XP" message when I run it in KernelEx-Win98
compatibility mode. When I run it in win-XP mode, it complains about a
missing DLL file. When I obtain the missing DLL file (normally found on
win-XP systems) then it installs itself - but it doesn't run when
launched.

But beyond all that, there is a basic problem with your perception of
the morality of streaming a given album or track on-demand vs
downloading the entire work to listen to when convienent.

I see no difference in calling up a given track using spotify vs opening
the same track in my PC's music player - a track or album that I
downloaded from a file-locker. The end result is the same.

I challenge you to explain the difference.

Anyone who repeatedly uses spotify to play the same album or track
numerous times (or even just one time) is just as guilty at depriving
some revenue to the copyright owner as someone who downloads the album
or track.

Steen

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Dec 17, 2011, 3:58:25 AM12/17/11

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Jazz Guy <Ja...@Guy.com> wrote:

> Steen wrote:
>
> > > Second, you can't seem to install spotify software on windows 98.
> >
> > Apparently you're wrong
>
> No, I'm right.

Since I don't use Windows I can only inform you what the download page
tells me. Then it's up to the reader to trust you or the download page:
Operating Systems:
Windows 2000, Windows 2003, Windows 7, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows
ME, Windows NT, Windows Server 2008, Windows Vista, Windows XP and Mac
OS

BTW, I bet most people use a recent OS

> But beyond all that, there is a basic problem with your perception of
> the morality of streaming a given album or track on-demand vs
> downloading the entire work to listen to when convienent.
>
> I see no difference in calling up a given track using spotify vs opening
> the same track in my PC's music player - a track or album that I
> downloaded from a file-locker. The end result is the same.

I have paid the artist for listening to their music, you have stolen it.

--
Steen

Jazz Guy

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Dec 17, 2011, 8:44:35 AM12/17/11

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Steen wrote:

> > I see no difference in calling up a given track using spotify vs
> > opening the same track in my PC's music player - a track or album
> > that I downloaded from a file-locker. The end result is the same.
>
> I have paid the artist for listening to their music, you have
> stolen it.

How have you paid the artist by using spotify?

Steen

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Dec 17, 2011, 11:14:48 AM12/17/11

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Streaming services makes deals with various record labels, in order to use
their products.
Most labels are included in the Spotify catalogue, but a few have chosen
not to make their artists available by stramning services, and have chosen
not to be included. The labels pay their artists according to their
contract by the number of how many times they are played.
The precise content of the whole thing is not public, but the streaming
services are working hand in hand with the record industry.

When you download music from a site like Pirate Bay or other places like
that, it's like going into a record shop and steal a CD. As a bonus, you
might even get a computer virus included in your download!

Support your favorite artists and pay for what you use
--
Steen via iPad

Jazz Guy

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Dec 17, 2011, 1:09:50 PM12/17/11

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Spotify was launched in October 2008. It requires the use of
proprietary software on the client's computer. It is highly unlikely
that they considered win-98 compatibility for their software.

Spotify turns your computer into a streaming server for other spotify
users to access music content. Did you know that?

Spotify is primarily a European phenomena, and only became available in
the US in July this year. It is not available in my country (Canada)
but I do know people that access the free version of spotify using
HotSpot Shield.

If you read the wikipedia article on Spotify, you'll see that there are
reports that it is not fair or equitable to independent artists, and
that most of it's streams are 160 kbps (even for paid customers) - not
the much advertized 320 kbps. It appears to be incapable of providing
true loss-less content.

At the time of it's July launch in the US, it claimed to have 10 million
users, of which 10% were paying subscribers. At the time it has yet to
turn a profit.

Steen wrote:

> When you download music from a site like Pirate Bay or other
> places like that, it's like going into a record shop and steal
> a CD.

Let me make a comment about your confusion of bit torrent vs file
lockers.

Pirate Bay is a search engine for torrent files. It doesn't actually
host the material being searched for - no torrent tracker does. I
rarely obtain any files today using bit torrent, and to be honest I
never did that much torrenting in the past.

The use of file-lockers (also known as "one-click hosters") is a newer
phenomena that doesn't get much press. The way they work is as
follows: People that upload content to the file lockers (FLs) get paid
by the FLs based on how much of their stuff gets downloaded by others
(others being FL users). FLs offer different levels of paid and free
access to the files.

Free users are limited in various ways - one download per hour, one
download at a time, must answer a captcha test, etc. Paid users
naturally have none of those limitations. The money to pay the
uploaders comes from the paid users, and there is some advertizing on
the FL website aimed at the free users.

Websites like avaxhome.ws act as the "pirate bay" equivalent in the FL
world. People need to know or discover the content that has been
uploaded, and sites like avax provide a platform where the uploaders
create the posts showing what they've uploaded, and downloaders can view
these offerings and easily connect to the FL to obtain the material.

To take this one step further, client programs like JDownLoader can take
all the links given on the Avax page and automatically download the
content from the FLs without the user having to actually see or interact
with the FL web-site. Jdownloader automatically displays captcha's to
the user, and it automatically re-cycles the user's modem or router to
obtain a new IP address to allow for continuous downloading from the
same FLs. Thus a user need not pay for FL access.

> As a bonus, you might even get a computer virus included
> in your download!

Because of the revenue model in place between the File locker and the
paid or free users and the content uploader, this financial ecosystem is
sustainable and there is little motivation for the uploaders to
integrate malware into the content.

The ability for users of sites like Avax to easily add comments about
each offering means that if any malware is detected in the material,
other users can easily be warned.

When it comes to audio files, it's not clear to me that files such as
WV, APE, MP3 and FLAC can contain malware or viral / trojan exploits in
the first place. Same goes for movies (which are offered in MPEG, MKV,
AVI and VOB format).

> Support your favorite artists and pay for what you use

There is nothing stopping you from buying an actual CD of any given
artist after you've downloaded the CD from a file-locker and have
evaluated it and determined you actually like the music and would listen
to it regularly.

I download a lot of stuff that I only listen to within maybe a day after
I download it - and then never listen to it again (but I tell myself
that one day I might or will listen to it again). Maybe it's like being
a "pack rat" - to never throw anything away. With digital files on a
huge hard drive, it's easy to not throw something away.

In Canada, our "wise" politicians enacted a form of tax on various
digital media (some forms of removable memory and hard drives, media
like CD-r disks, etc). The revenue from this tax is collected and is
supposed to be distributed to various media organizations who in turn is
supposed to distribute it to artists in the form of a royalty.

Since I've probably paid that tax in some form over the years, I have no
problems with downloading material I can freely find on the internet.
But the way that I "use" or listen to music (which is sporadically /
unpredictably) I can say that if these various ways to freely "pirate"
music was not available to me, I would not be obtaining these same works
via on-line or in-store purchases.

And I've bought many CD's in stores over the years based on a vague idea
that I might like the music or the artist and have been very
disappointed in the content, and hence have never listened to the CD
more than once. As much as pirating a given CD might be adverse for the
artist, I think we can all say that we own CD's that we've bought that
were not worthy of the purchase.

It works both ways - but up until now it's worked in the favor of the
artist.

Steen

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Dec 17, 2011, 6:29:14 PM12/17/11

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Jazz Guy <Ja...@Guy.com> wrote:

> Let me make a comment about your confusion of bit torrent vs file
> lockers.

Do whatever you want, if you download sonething from the internet (that
is sold legally) and don't pay for it - what does that make you?
The artist/label are getting ripped off.
E.O.D.
--
Steen

Jazz Guy

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Dec 17, 2011, 7:09:50 PM12/17/11

to

Steen wrote:

> if you download sonething from the internet (that is sold legally)
> and don't pay for it - what does that make you?
> The artist/label are getting ripped off.
> E.O.D.

No - not eod.

What if I download some music - and never listen to it?

This argument about downloading and ripping people off is not clear cut.

It's a false argument to say that every (illegal) download equates to a
lost sale.

Nicole Massey

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Dec 17, 2011, 8:48:16 PM12/17/11

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"Jazz Guy" <Ja...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4EED2F4E...@Guy.com...

This argument was made by Barry Sozniak in 1997 to the RIAA as a reason why
pursuing a policy of actively chasing pirates was counterproductive to their
main business, and that it would cause serious problems for them. As we're
losing EMI as a label thanks to its financial problems and subsequent
takeover by Citigroup and breakup to Universal and Sony, I would say that he
might have a strong point.

But they didn't listen to Cassandra, either.

There are people out there who will never pay for the music they download no
matter the price point, so those aren't lost sales, they're just people who
benefit for free from other folks. The RIAA took a hit on this recently
with the r3eduction of their evaluation for "pirated works" because the
defense made a strong case that those folks aren't getting parity value in
a download compared to a CD.

That said, I don't think it's affecting the Jazz industry as much as rock,
pop, and urban genres.

Not also that I have not experessed any opinions in this message, just
reportage. Knopper's wonderful book, Appetite for Self Destruction, covers
what happened in the music industry very well, and is well worth the read.

Henry Law

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Dec 22, 2011, 10:54:57 AM12/22/11

to

On 18/12/11 01:48, Nicole Massey wrote:
> There are people out there who will never pay for the music they download no
> matter the price point, so those aren't lost sales, they're just people who
> benefit for free from other folks.

I had a long and heated argument with a non-musician acquaintance of
mine. His argument was "I'd never pay the price they're asking so
they've not lost a sale because I downloaded it free".

Arithmetically you can't fault his logic and I found the argument very
hard to start with. In the end I realised: it's _his_ choice to say
that he won't pay the fee demanded of the performer and his agents (i.e.
the record company); it's precisely equivalent to his deciding that he's
going to be a thief.

Of course choosing to be a thief is something that people have done
since time immemorial; but for my part I can say that those who do so
are not those I want to have anything to do with.

> That said, I don't think it's affecting the Jazz industry as much as rock,
> pop, and urban genres.

And, I was amazed to find, printed books, in a big way. I read in a
blog that there's a free torrent download containing no fewer than 572
"For Dummies" books, all laboriously scanned and turned into PDF.

Nicole Massey

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Dec 23, 2011, 3:28:56 PM12/23/11

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"Henry Law" <ne...@lawshouse.org> wrote in message

news:D8udncIuRoJPz27T...@giganews.com...

The argument that some buyers won't pay the going rate for music is one made
by microeconomists all the time, and is used a lot in discussing sales
calculations to determine optimum profit vs. cost. Some people have a sense
of entitlement that makes them feel they have a right to something for free,
and this has been a growing trend in the last century.

I'm a musician and have been for over three and a half decades, and I have
strong conceptual differences with the way music is commoditized and
allegedly protected, but that doesn't mean I participate in piracy either.
My biggest complaint is with copyright law, which I feel has reached a point
where it is now a detriment to our culture instead of any real benefit.
There are rock bands that haven't had a major hit since the 60's that are
still floating on those song today, even though they haven't put out much of
anything worth noting since then. And I believe that past a certain point
art ceases to be individual and becomes a part of the collective culture.
This is especially true with popular music -- when Satisfaction, Would You
Like to Swing on a Star, or Morning Dance play, they very well may evoke a
certain time or place in the listener's past, and as such it takes on a lot
more meaning than the creater of the song ever intended. This is one of the
reasons I applaud artists like Ozzy Osborne who openly refuse to ever
discuss what their lyrics mean, because they understand that they have a
personal meaning to the listener. If I were to re-write copyright law I'd
eliminate the past death extension completely and figure out some method of
diminishing levels of compensation for longer time periods after initial
publication. But that's beyond the scope of this group. And note this
doesn't apply to recordings -- Recordings are a different product than
original composition, and I'd increase the artist's share of the profits
over time, not reduce them. But I digress.
Piracy is, however, always an explosive topic on the internet, like many
other topics that evoke strong feelings and idealogical debate. Someone is
always going to get pissed off.

Jazz Guy

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Dec 23, 2011, 9:13:32 PM12/23/11

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Nicole Massey wrote:

> My biggest complaint is with copyright law, which I feel has reached
> a point where it is now a detriment to our culture instead of any
> real benefit.

> If I were to re-write copyright law I'd eliminate the past death
> extension completely and figure out some method of diminishing
> levels of compensation for longer time periods after initial
> publication.

Here's the way I see it.

When you look at creative works (like movies, books and music) and when
you look at patents, both are forms of intellectual property, but they
are treated in law quite differently.

There is a basic idea that society gives the authors of intellectual
property the exclusive ability to profit from those works, and affords
the authors the benefits of the police and the courts to maintain that
ability for a time.

But with patents, that protection is time-limited (around 15 to 20
years) but the time limit for copyrighted works is ridiculously long.

The basic premis for the protection is that society conveys these
mechanisms to the rights-owner for a time, and then after that the works
become public domain and society as a whole benefits and moves forward.
At least it does with patents, but it's less clear how this benefit is
conveyed with ridiculously long protective periods for movies, books and
music.

Software is yet another murky area.

I openly share and re-install Windows 98 (and office 2000) on many of my
computers. Am I harming Microsoft by doing so? Even when they no
longer offer me the ability to pay them for the licenses for those
works?

When it comes to movies, books and music, there's something else to
consider - as Nicole mentions - it's the time-value of the works.

These works never tarnish, rust, or degrade. Every song ever published,
sung or performed (at least for the past 50 - 75 years) is still
available.

This "pile" of work just accumulates over time.

Unlike other efforts of human labor, how do you value something that is
not really consumed or that never degrades (like a chicken sandwich, a
car, or a barrel of oil) - and that can be perfectly replicated or
duplicated with almost no effort?

Once upon a time, you had radio - and a semblence of a functioning
ecosystm of musician, label, broadcaster, advertiser, and listener.

Today, radio is dying. I constantly ask my friends with cell phones why
their hand-held devices don't have FM radios built-in (don't get me
started by raising the topic of why they don't have TV-tuners built in -
to pick up over-the-air television).

Internet radio is a land-mine of geo-blocking and geo-based rights
management and is not worth the hassle of tapping into (at least not
where I live).

I don't know what the answer is. For me, it's not XM/Sirus or any other
sort of pay service (I don't own any such satellite radio - my 12 year
old car doesn't have one).

They tried to block Digital Audio tape in the age before the fusion of
CD and personal computer allowed the consumer to have access to (and to
make copies of) the content in it's purest form. They didn't see (and
couldn't stop) the electronic networks that would form between
disconnected strangers to share the content (far beyond the old problem
of sharing cassette tapes between friends).

They came up with DVD-audio and Super-Audio formats, but just like
BlueRay today, the venerable CD has become the technological dead-end
for the music industry's attempt to protect their content. The CD, like
the DVD, is truely "good enough" for the task, and attempts to develop
more sophisticated formats that promise better resolution while being
un-copyable (at least for a year or two) will fail.

The extinction of the "brick and mortar" music store is certainly not
helping their cause.

In my travels over the past say 15 years, I made it a point to visit the
multi-story mega-music store in what-ever city I was in. I came armed
with my list of the music CD's I already owned -> because it became a
little off-putting to come back from such a trip with 4 or 8 new CD's
and discover that I already owned one of them (Doh!).

Those stores are gone. I've never bought music on-line, and I probably
never will. It's just not the same experience to be flipping through
shelf after shelf of selections - making a snap decision if I want this
or that. I don't own an iSlave device, so there is no iToons for me.

And if truth be told, I was becoming tired of paying $15.99 for a
brand-new CD containing a work of 25-year-old smooth-jazz music when in
the bargain DVD bin sitting just a few feet away I can buy a 5 year old
hit movie with 2 hours of content that had a budget of $200 million to
make, and I can buy that DVD for $4.99.

Nicole Massey

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Dec 23, 2011, 11:07:32 PM12/23/11

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"Jazz Guy" <Ja...@Guy.com> wrote in message news:4EF5354C...@Guy.com...

A lot here to respond to. I'll deal with them in some semblence of your
order.

Copyright law has extended, according to several folks involved with the
underbelly of those laws, mostly because Disney is scared to lose the
copyright on Mickey Mouse. I agree that a limited ownership like Patent law
makes sense, and I see no reason why Disney doesn't just trademark their
characters and be done with it. But I'm not an IP attorney, so I don't know
all the dynamics of that.

At this point I know of several of the large independents around that are
large shops and sell both new and used CD's. Amoeba in Berkley California
and Forever Young in Grand Prairie Texas are two examples with a big fllor
area. Both also still carry vinyl and cassettes, though not much new in
those formats of course. I only know of one new music only "Mom and Pop"
music store, and it's right around the corner from me. But the lack of the
big distributors like Big State and Diamond have driven up his costs, and I
have to really want something to pop $18 for it.

And your last point is the big thing that the record labels missed in 1997
when their profits dropped. (Which was, of course, almost two years before
Napster) That year gave us both the Playstation and the DVD, and think about
how many times you'll listen to a CD, compared to the average of 600 hours
it takes to win a video game. Bang for the buck definitely falls into the
game category. And even DVD's have the extra features. The music industry
tried that with enhanced CD's and SA CD's, but it was too little too late.