The Stevie Collective Speaks...

elizabeth & chris

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Mar 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/13/98

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Before you completely disregard rap as a form of music, please consider
the following questions. Answer them for youself, and to your own
satisfaction.

1) Is Lou Reed _actually_ singing in "Take a Walk on the Wild Side"?

2) If Laurie Anderson or William Burroughs is speaking over music, is it
still music?

3) Do you remember Sugarhill Gang's "Rapper's Delight"? (I believe it
predates "Rapture" by a few years.)

4) What is significantly different about Bobby McFerrin making drum and
bass sounds and the Fat Boys making drum and bass sounds?

5) Public Enemy's work was mostly about racism and perceptions of
racism. Do they fall into your "gangsta" category?

6) Puff Daddy used "Every Breath You Take" as a piece of backup music.
They don't sound like gangsters to me. What is that that they're doing?

7) How have Run DMC, The Beastie Boys, and Heavy D sold as many albums
as they have without resorting to the "gangsta" thing?

8) Does an objective standard exist for art?

(If you answer yes to #8, please send a copy of your answer to
do...@thorin.instanet.com for judging and evaluation.)

CsEsB - The Stevie Collective

Steve

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Mar 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/13/98

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elizabeth & chris wrote:

> 8) Does an objective standard exist for art?
>

Is SHIT art?

elizabeth & chris

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Mar 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/13/98

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Are we talking about a) a generalization about things you don't like or
b) _actual_ defecation?

In the case of a), your statement about what is SHIT goes right back to
what we were trying to impart. Just because someone else doesn't like
something doesn't change the relationship of the work to the artist.
In the case of b), we might refer you to a Jesse Helms Favorite - "Piss
Christ". (I know, it's a different bodily by-product. I contend that it
is delivered with the same sentiment.) It's art. I don't understand it,
but I cannot deny that an artist took the time (and a couple of beers)
to express himself. It is also possible that in some locations in
America, in some certain cities whose name is an echo of the state's
name (and in other similarly adventurous locales), that this act of
defecation that you may be describing may pass (pun possibly intended)
as "performance art". On the other hand, if the action becomes mundane,
and no thought is given to its significance, then it may cease to be
art.
On an interesting art history note, the first piece of "found art" was
an indoor plumbing fixture. Coincedence or not??!?

I am sorry that the imprecision of the english language forced me to
consider the idea that your comment was not _necessarily_ literal.

Cs

Robb Scott

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Mar 13, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/13/98

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In article <3509EC...@concentric.net>, bink...@concentric.net wrote:

> Before you completely disregard rap as a form of music, please consider
> the following questions. Answer them for youself, and to your own
> satisfaction.
>
> 1) Is Lou Reed _actually_ singing in "Take a Walk on the Wild Side"?

No. And yes. He's singing as much as many rappers.

> 2) If Laurie Anderson or William Burroughs is speaking over music, is it
> still music?

Oh, that's "Spoken Word". It's white people, so it's "art".

> 4) What is significantly different about Bobby McFerrin making drum and
> bass sounds and the Fat Boys making drum and bass sounds?

Good point, though McFerrin's artistry speaks for itself (anyone heard
from the Fat Boys recently?). Also, Bobby CAN sing.

> 5) Public Enemy's work was mostly about racism and perceptions of
> racism. Do they fall into your "gangsta" category?

I admit I don't know enough about PE to make the distinction. I've heard
enough to admire their mastery of the studio. Their association with the
vile racist Farakkhan doesn't sit well with me.

> 6) Puff Daddy used "Every Breath You Take" as a piece of backup music.
> They don't sound like gangsters to me. What is that that they're doing?

I've done some sample and borrowed-loop based stuff. My opinion is that
there's a line where you cross over into rip-off territory, and that
Puff-Daddy definitely crossed it (as did MC Hammer with "Can't Touch
This").

> 7) How have Run DMC, The Beastie Boys, and Heavy D sold as many albums
> as they have without resorting to the "gangsta" thing?
>

> 8) Does an objective standard exist for art?

No. that's why it's art.

> (If you answer yes to #8, please send a copy of your answer to
> do...@thorin.instanet.com for judging and evaluation.)

My own take...

Is Rap "Music". Of course it is, and it's goddamn silly and borderline
racist to hold otherwise. It's not for everyone: It surely ain't my thing
and probably never will be. But I'll never insult anyone's choice of what
to listen to, what turns them on, what shakes their booty, get's 'em off,
floats their boat...what constitutes "music" for them. Why would anyone
feel they have to?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Robb Scott |
| 26 Cambridge St. Miniature Sun Productions |
| Ayer, MA 01432 Original Music for Video and Multimedia |
| 978-772-3495 |
| Robb "AT" ycrdi.com |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Carlginger

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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>elizabeth & chris wrote:
>
>> 8) Does an objective standard exist for art?
>>
>
>

>Is SHIT art?
>
>

Exactly, everything listed is pure shit, Lou Reed and all.
Liz, you must have the absolute worst collection of poor excuses for music in
the group.
The crap you listen to is some of the worst shit ever.
Borke? A bunch of shaved head women singing about
what? I'd rather listen to the Partridge Family.

Carl

STRATQUEEN

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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Stevie Robb wrote:

<<Is Rap "Music". Of course it is, and it's goddamn silly and borderline racist
to hold otherwise. It's not for everyone: It surely ain't my thing and probably
never will be. But I'll never insult anyone's choice of what to listen to, what
turns them on, what shakes their booty, get's 'em off, floats their boat...what
constitutes "music" for them. Why would anyone feel they have to?>>

I agree with you 98%. I don't believe that all people who dislike rap
are racist. I certainly am not. It's the Rev. Al Sharkton and Louis Farrakhan
(sp?) and white supremacist type mentality that I despise (in whites and people
of color). I understand that from time to time an artist may record something
that deals with issues I abhor, but I personally boycott artists who
continuously make their living off of preaching violence against women, and in
society in general.

I also agree that adults should be free to listen to whatever they damn
well please -- but I will be monitoring what my kids listen to more carefully
now. I've tried to expose my kids to all different kinds of music so they will
be more open-minded (my dad did this with me, and I grew up loving all kinds of
music). I take them to the N.H. Philharmonic, Boston Pops, outdoor folk
concerts, country & western shows, bluegrass festivals, etc. I let them watch
documentaries on A&E and VH-1 so they can learn about all kinds of music. When
they get older, they'll be able to go to rock concerts.

Music and art are a matter of personal taste and the standards are
subjective. I believe the world is enriched by the many different existing
forms and I'm glad they are here for us to enjoy.

Slide on........

<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/STRATQUEEN/index.html">Stratqueen's Page</A>

**************************************
Sharon L. Demmerlé, Esq.
Demmerlé Law Offices, P.L.L.C.
Post Office Box 688
Manchester, NH 03105-0688

Paul Dragon

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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>
> Are we talking about a) a generalization about things you don't like or
> b) _actual_ defecation?

Well, the actual act of shitting sounds better than most of that unoriginal
stuff that was in your list. Something about people who don't play any
instruments, yet have multi million dollar recording contracts....it don't
sit right.

jetlag

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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Back...@NOSPAMnetexpress.net (Backcrkr) wrote:

> Technically, music has five elements. Those are:

> a. Rhythm
> b. Melody
> c. Harmony
> d. Timbre
> e. Texture

> Rap contains at least three of those five elements. It has timbre,
>texture, and rhythm. However, I don't believe that rappers employ
>melody or harmony in their raps. Perhaps the "audible wallpaper" which
>is going on behind them does provide for this. But in almost all
>cases, it's done by using somebody else's music (not their own).

Ned Flanders speaks....

jet

Andrew P. Mullhaupt

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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elizabeth & chris wrote in message <3509EC...@concentric.net>...

>Before you completely disregard rap as a form of music, please consider
>the following questions. Answer them for youself, and to your own
>satisfaction.

I'm much happier using Gil Scott-Heron's "The Revolution Will Not Be
Televised" as an example of rap music.

Going back a little further, we get Oscar Brown, Jr. and to some extent,
Mose Allison.

Then there's always been the talking blues, such as "Beware, Brother,
Beware".

More recently, there's the Japanese rap on Vernon Reid's _Mistaken
Identity_.

Anyone who can tag these as non music has a real narrow bandwidth for music.

I'll cut people slack if they can't handle "Alice's Restaurant".

Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt

Andrew P. Mullhaupt

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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Steve wrote in message <3509F3...@sprintmail.com>...

>elizabeth & chris wrote:
>
>> 8) Does an objective standard exist for art?
>>
>
>
>Is SHIT art?

In Barcelona, it often is. For some odd reason, there is a traditional
character which appears in Catalan art called something which translates
into "the shitter" and is a cute guy in tradititional dress with his pants
down taking a dump, complete with a little pile of shit. You see him in
paintings, there are very popular sculptures of him, and I think they put
them in nativity scenes.

Then there was the nineteenth century performance artist Josef Pujols, "Le
Petomaine", named without hesitation by Dali when asked who was the greatest
artist other than himself. Pujol's act was farting at will - popular tunes,
blowing candles out twenty feet away either with farts or with a stream of
water squirted out of his ass.

Check the Australian art critic Robert Hughes' book _Barcelona_ for the
details.

Aren't you glad you asked?

Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt

BobHere

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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In article <NoSpamWebmaster-...@p8.ts1.metro.ma.tiac.com>,
NoSpamW...@tiac.net says...

>
>Is Rap "Music". Of course it is, and it's goddamn silly and
>borderline racist to hold otherwise.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Whoa back up. Please explain the connection.

--
** Bob Wrenn (root@localhost) bwrenn **
** at clark.net **
** The purpose for time is to prevent everything from happening at once **

evil twin®

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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On Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:29:41 GMT, Back...@NOSPAMnetexpress.net
(Backcrkr) wrote:

> Rap contains at least three of those five elements. It has timbre,
>texture, and rhythm. However, I don't believe that rappers employ
>melody or harmony in their raps. Perhaps the "audible wallpaper" which
>is going on behind them does provide for this. But in almost all
>cases, it's done by using somebody else's music (not their own).

And this is different from what a band like The Rolling Stones or Z.Z.
Top does in what way? Does the fact that Billy Gibbons can recite
somebody elses licks through his guitar make him musically superior to
a rapper who samples? And who's the real rip-off artist - the rapper
who pays to sample somebody elses music, or the white-boy blues guy
who steals riffs from all the unknowns who came before him and doesn't
pay them a dime.

SEFSTRAT

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

<<Just because someone else doesn't like
something doesn't change the relationship of the work to the artist>>

I generally will not respectr a person as an "artist" unless what they are
doing requires some degree of talent...that it, the average shmoe in the genre
should not be able to easily replicate it. In this I include writing, playing,
painting, sculpture, whatever. Show me some uniqueness, please.

Steve
SEFSTRAT

James Fuller

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

elizabeth & chris wrote:

> 1) Is Lou Reed _actually_ singing in "Take a Walk on the Wild Side"?

No, of course he isn't.

> 2) If Laurie Anderson or William Burroughs is speaking over music, is
> it still music?

Check where these are filed in the library. "Spoken word."

> 8) Does an objective standard exist for art?
>

> (If you answer yes to #8, please send a copy of your answer to
> do...@thorin.instanet.com for judging and evaluation.)

Yes. Marshal Mcluhan came up with it, in the only really pene-
trating thing he ever said. "Art is anything you can get away with."
It is not clear that rappers have gotten away with rap.

SEFSTRAT

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

<<Technically, music has five elements. Those are:

a. Rhythm
b. Melody
c. Harmony
d. Timbre
e. Texture

Rap contains at least three of those five elements.>>

Thank you. This proves my point even more succinctly than I could have.

Rap is NOT music.

Even the Cowsills had all 5 elements present! Even Neil Young had all
five......um, forget I said that, please.

Steve
SEFSTRAT

SEFSTRAT

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

<<4) What is significantly different about Bobby McFerrin making drum and
>bass sounds and the Fat Boys making drum and bass sounds?>>

McFerrin SINGS, too.
SEFSTRAT

SEFSTRAT

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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<<there's a line where you cross over into rip-off territory, and that
Puff-Daddy definitely crossed it (as did MC Hammer with "Can't Touch
This"). >>

To Hammer's credit, he cleared it with Rick James before he did this, and James
was compensated accordingly. Doesn't diminish the ripoff--buit he freely
acknowledged it, and didn;t pose as an 'offended artist' at the suggestion.
SEFSTRAT

James Fuller

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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BobHere wrote:

>> Is Rap "Music". Of course it is, and it's goddamn silly and
>> borderline racist to hold otherwise.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Whoa back up. Please explain the connection.

It's specimen no. 34,558,224,100,007 since the year 1965 of the
thought "Anyone who disagrees with me is a racist."

SEFSTRAT

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

<<Is Rap "Music". Of course it is, and it's goddamn silly and borderline
racist to hold otherwise. >>

Ahhh. So THAT'S it. As I suspected all along......the knee-jerk reaction to my
comment that rap is not, by definition music (it lacks essential elements to
meet the definition as I find it in any authoritative source) is based in
political ccorrectness.

Another knee-jerk liberal revealed.....

Let me tell you something. I am an attorney with a varied practice. I give a
LOT of nonmandatory pro bono time to disadvantaged, impovershed people who
happen to be members of the very ethnic group you'd have me be 'borderline
racist' about because I don't think rap is music. I've paid for essentials for
some of these clients because the system failed them.

Get something straight. My opinions about music--or the lack thereof--have
nothing to do with the identity of the 'artist' or the usual audience. My
white suburban upper middle class 13-year old daughter listened to rap and R&B
almost exclusively in recent years (I audition rap stuff before I'll let her
have it; she has no gangsta ra...as she bacame more of a musician, she
naturally began to broaden her own horizons, an interesting story in itself).
I therefore don't think my alleged 'racism' involves the rap audience or people
who like the stuff.

Before you decide to play 'the race card', get your head out of the place where
the sun never shines. People like you--alleging racism due to musical taste or
opinion--are dangerous and offensive. The fact that you'd so casually make
that statement tells me a LOT about the way you think--or should I say, FAIL to
think.

Steve
SEFSTRAT

SEFSTRAT

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

<<More recently, there's the Japanese rap on Vernon Reid's _Mistaken
Identity_.>>

My only commens about that, having heard it once:

1. Vernon Reid can play; he;s a hell fo a guitarist.
2. The tune sucked.

Steve
SEFSTRAT

SEFSTRAT

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

<<I'll cut people slack if they can't handle "Alice's Restaurant".>>

Actually, it was not meant as "music"....he was just telling a story, and he
wrote a little song to wrap around it (remember, it IS a song, too). The
acoustic guitar part sounded nice as a background, so he used it. I think the
story'd be just as good without the background.
SEFSTRAT

DRC

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

What do you mean rap doesn't have all 5 of these? It definitely does. You
might want to learn how to listen to and interpret music, or at least do
away with the tunnel vision dude. I thought we were all musicians here?

Guess not.
peace

DRC

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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SEFSTRAT wrote:

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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SEFSTRAT wrote in message <19980314153...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...

Sucked or no, it was music, right, which is the point.

Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt

elizabeth & chris

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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Backcrkr wrote:

> Technically, music has five elements. Those are:
>
> a. Rhythm
> b. Melody
> c. Harmony
> d. Timbre
> e. Texture
>

Robert Fripp Soundscapes have no rhythm.
Philip Glass has no melody.
Gregorian Chants (before selling out in modern times) have no harmony.
Some John Cage music doesn't have any of these elements.

ESB

elizabeth & chris

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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Backcrkr wrote:

> >2) If Laurie Anderson or William Burroughs is speaking over music, is it
> >still music?
>

> Is their speaking the "music"? No.

In Laurie Andersons case, yes, sometimes it is.

ESB

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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In article <19980314045...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
strat...@aol.com (STRATQUEEN) wrote:

>
> I agree with you 98%. I don't believe that all people who dislike rap
> are racist.

Nor do I.

> I certainly am not. It's the Rev. Al Sharkton and Louis Farrakhan
> (sp?) and white supremacist type mentality that I despise (in whites and
people
> of color). I understand that from time to time an artist may record something
> that deals with issues I abhor, but I personally boycott artists who
> continuously make their living off of preaching violence against women, and in
> society in general.

As you should.

> I also agree that adults should be free to listen to whatever they damn
> well please -- but I will be monitoring what my kids listen to more carefully
> now. I've tried to expose my kids to all different kinds of music so
they will
> be more open-minded (my dad did this with me, and I grew up loving all
kinds of
> music). I take them to the N.H. Philharmonic, Boston Pops, outdoor folk
> concerts, country & western shows, bluegrass festivals, etc. I let them watch
> documentaries on A&E and VH-1 so they can learn about all kinds of
music. When
> they get older, they'll be able to go to rock concerts.
>
> Music and art are a matter of personal taste and the standards are
> subjective. I believe the world is enriched by the many different existing
> forms and I'm glad they are here for us to enjoy.

Good points. Let me clarify: You can dislike Rap all day. I listen to very
little of it myself. You're also right to be concerned about the "Gangsta"
element, with its accompanying glorification of all manner of depravity.

My beef is with people who claim it's "not music". It's the kind of thing
they used to say about Rock before Elvis and Bill Haley cleaned it up, and
everyone knew what was meant by it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
| Robb Scott |
| 26 Cambridge St. Miniature Sun Productions |
| Ayer, MA 01432 Original Music for Video and Multimedia |
| 978-772-3495 |
| Robb "AT" ycrdi.com |
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Robb Scott

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

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In article <350A9E...@no.commercial.email>, James Fuller
<no....@no.commercial.email> wrote:

> BobHere wrote:
>
> >> Is Rap "Music". Of course it is, and it's goddamn silly and
> >> borderline racist to hold otherwise.

> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > Whoa back up. Please explain the connection.
>
>
> It's specimen no. 34,558,224,100,007 since the year 1965 of the
> thought "Anyone who disagrees with me is a racist."

Bullshit. I'm not one to play the race card (lightly) and hold those who
do in contempt. But claiming that Rap is "not music" is just the latest in
a line that goes back to simalar knocks on the "race music" of the late
40s, and even back to European musician's contempt for jazz at the turn of
the century.

Rap may be a music you don't like. That's fair, and I reiterate that I'm
not a fan. Claiming it's not music is, at the very least, annoyingly
paternal.

Stephane Boucher

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

ha...@primary.net (evil twin®) writes:

> And this is different from what a band like The Rolling Stones or Z.Z.
> Top does in what way? Does the fact that Billy Gibbons can recite
> somebody elses licks through his guitar make him musically superior to
> a rapper who samples? And who's the real rip-off artist - the rapper
> who pays to sample somebody elses music, or the white-boy blues guy
> who steals riffs from all the unknowns who came before him and doesn't
> pay them a dime.

Actually, Billy Gibbons did give a custom made guitar to Albert King
:-)
--
,
Stephane Boucher, ing s...@nortel.ca
- NORTEL - Tel: (613)763-9778
Bell-Northern Research / Recherches Bell-Northern

Robb Scott

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

In article <19980314153...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
sefs...@aol.com (SEFSTRAT) wrote:

> <<Is Rap "Music". Of course it is, and it's goddamn silly and borderline
> racist to hold otherwise. >>
>
>

> Ahhh. So THAT'S it. As I suspected all along......the knee-jerk
reaction to my
> comment that rap is not, by definition music (it lacks essential elements to
> meet the definition as I find it in any authoritative source) is based in
> political ccorrectness.

By YOUR Definition, which dismisses all drum or rhythmn-based music.
Throwing the baby out with the bathwater just to prove a point?

> Another knee-jerk liberal revealed.....

Hardly. I generally vote, and think, libertarian.

> Let me tell you something. I am an attorney with a varied practice. I give a
> LOT of nonmandatory pro bono time to disadvantaged, impovershed people who
> happen to be members of the very ethnic group you'd have me be 'borderline
> racist' about because I don't think rap is music. I've paid for
essentials for
> some of these clients because the system failed them.

Good for you. Ask some of these clients if they think Rap is "Music".

> Get something straight. My opinions about music--or the lack thereof--have
> nothing to do with the identity of the 'artist' or the usual audience. My
> white suburban upper middle class 13-year old daughter listened to rap and R&B
> almost exclusively in recent years (I audition rap stuff before I'll let her
> have it; she has no gangsta ra...as she bacame more of a musician, she
> naturally began to broaden her own horizons, an interesting story in itself).
> I therefore don't think my alleged 'racism' involves the rap audience or
people
> who like the stuff.

Again, if you'd said "Rap sucks" I'd have no problem. Indeed some of it
does suck, and I have a huge problem with the hideous gangsta stuff.

Claiming it's "not music" is extremely condescending to the millions of
folks who listen to and enjoy the stuff.

> Before you decide to play 'the race card', get your head out of the
place where
> the sun never shines. People like you--alleging racism due to musical
taste or
> opinion--are dangerous and offensive. The fact that you'd so casually make
> that statement tells me a LOT about the way you think--or should I say,
FAIL to
> think.

Bullshit. I never play the race card lightly, and hate those who do.
Perhaps you should think about how much thought goes into the dismissal of
an entire genre of music, merely because you don't understand it.

FStyle

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

SEFSTRAT wrote in message <19980314151...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...

><<Technically, music has five elements. Those are:
>
> a. Rhythm
> b. Melody
> c. Harmony
> d. Timbre
> e. Texture
>

> Rap contains at least three of those five elements.>>
>
>
>Thank you. This proves my point even more succinctly than I could have.
>
>Rap is NOT music.
>
>Even the Cowsills had all 5 elements present! Even Neil Young had all
>five......um, forget I said that, please.

I have always said that Rap isn't music. I hate it. But, sitting here
thinking about the final product of this form of sound entertainment, I
can't honestly objectively decide whether or not it is. I am leaning towards
it not being music on the true sense of the word. However, It is
entertainment and it has some of the qualities of music. But I think it's
more like manufactured sound integration. They take a bunch of sound, piece
it all together and build a recording. It's analogous to a collage where you
take a bunch of pictures, or drawings produced by someone else and arrange
them in some sort of visual presentation. In art, this collage can result in
a very pleasing result, but it's original only in the way the artist does
the arranging. It's interesting to note that in school, children with little
or no artistic abilities can produce something that it quite striking. The
Rap artist is like this. No intrinsic talent, but a good integrator. The
result to true musicians is an abomination. To the general public, however,
it can be appealing and the sales prove this. Music?? not in my books, but
it's there and I'll just ignore it.

BTW, I will never forget you said that Neil Young is a musician, SEF. It's
all a matter of taste, isn't it?

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

<<See, it's ok for Arlo to basically do the same thing as
modern rappers, tell a story and put it to "music" or even just a beat,
but it isn't ok for some ethnic minority to do the same thing, and tell
his version of the story over borrowed(with permission) ((See thread
about commercials)) or even simple music. >>

Kindly show me where I said that in my posts. And kindly show me where I said
that Arlo's story was MUSIC. I said I liked it. I did NOT say it was music.

It ain't.

"Alice's Restaurant" is also a song, however, with a melody, lyrics,
fingerp[icked acoustic, and so on. That IS music.

Nowhere have I stated that people shouldn't like, or listen to, rap. I could
care less. I just said, "it isn't music". Period.

Steve
SEFSTRAT

SEFSTRAT

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

<<Gregorian Chants (before selling out in modern times) have no harmony.>>

They sure do. Octaves were considered harmony then...closer intervals were seen
as distatsteful for a looooong time.

<<Some John Cage music doesn't have any of these elements.>>

Yes, his record of complete silence is a materpiece. And it ain't music,
either.

ESB, do you have any formal musical education?

Steve
SEFSTRAT

SEFSTRAT

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

<<Performance art?
I call it shit, plain and simple.
William Shatner singing "Mr. Tambourine Man" is performance art.

Carl>>

Yes, Carl, but it's very BAD performance art!

Oh, sorry...that's redundant, isn't it? "Bad Performance Art".

Steve
SEFSTRAT

JT Roberts

unread,

Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

elizabeth & chris wrote in message <350AB5...@concentric.net>...

>SEFSTRAT wrote:
>
>> I generally will not respectr a person as an "artist" unless what they
are
>> doing requires some degree of talent...that it, the average shmoe in the
genre
>> should not be able to easily replicate it.
>
>
>Then you should *never* listen to the radio.

>That isn't art. Not every musician has to be a virtuoso.

Maybe not art, but it is music. And believe me, I hate most of what is on
the radio.

It seems you are really talking about many things here: singing, playing an
instrument, music, art and poetry. I'm sure everyone here likes certain
bands or musicians who are not by any means virtuosos. That doesn't
preclude them from creating a unique musical statement. Unfortunately there
are thousands of teenagers who now believe that shouting, "I bitch-slapped
that ho", (to a lame, generic electronic drum beat), is a profound "musical"
expression. Sorry, I don't buy that.

Peace,
JT

James Fuller

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

elizabeth & chris wrote:

> Robert Fripp Soundscapes have no rhythm.
> Philip Glass has no melody.

> Gregorian Chants (before selling out in modern times) have no
> harmony.

> Some John Cage music doesn't have any of these elements.

Not too long ago I built a crude little radiotelescope from plans
in _Sky and Telescope_ to listen to the waxing and waning static
broadcast by the planet Jupiter. I also recorded a thirty minute
snippet of this static and successfully passed it off to a roomful
of artistic-people-wearing-black as a new work by the very well
known modern composer Iannis Xenakis. They yammered on at some
length about Xenakis's stochastic and statistical methodologies
and banked masses of microevents.

I happened to mention this the other day in rec.music.classical.-
contemporary and was told by an oldtimer that almost the same trick
was played twenty-odd years ago at Mills College, the butt of the
joke then being Mr. Cage.

Great minds...

Thomas C. Clancy

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

In article <19980314192...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,

sure, just ask Richard Pryor.

>Steve
>SEFSTRAT

James Fuller

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

Robb Scott wrote:

> Claiming it's "not music" is extremely condescending to the millions
> of folks who listen to and enjoy the stuff.

Anything man-made that is enjoyed by millions almost by definition
deserves condecension.

elizabeth & chris

unread,

Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

SEFSTRAT wrote:
>
> <<Not every musician has to be a virtuoso.>>
>

> READ my post. Go back. Did I EVER equate "musician" with "artist"??!!!!
> SEFSTRAT

Ok, I went back. I read your post.

Sefstrat says:

>> I generally will not respectr a person as an "artist" unless what they
are
>> doing requires some degree of talent...that it, the average shmoe in the
genre
>> should not be able to easily replicate it.
>

And since you corrolate your feelings about music being the same as
other arts it would seem to follow that you could fill in the word
"artist" above with writer, musician, or topless dancer.

I really could care less whether you actually like rap or not. I do
enjoy some(but not most) of it. It just seems *so* limiting to try to
de-classify something as music because you don't like it, or that it
doesn't fall into the very narrow definition of music that you are
using, which is what it really seems like you are doing. I just can't
understand putting limitations like that on anything as wonderful as
music.

ESB

elizabeth & chris

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

SEFSTRAT wrote:

> ESB, do you have any formal musical education?

Hmmm, selective memory at work, huh? No, I have not(as I have stated
here many times) had any formal musical education, and if it leads to
thinking like yours, then more than likely I never will.<serious joke>
:) I would probably kill someone first. Actually, that whole post
should be credited to Chris. I just typed it. He's the one with the
musical education. I'll let him answer his own posts.

ESB

Pete Kerez

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

In article <19980314033...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, carlg...@aol.com
(Carlginger) writes:

>everything listed is pure shit, Lou Reed and all.
>

I kinda think "Dirty Boulevard" is pretty fair lyric writing. What does this
have to do with 'The Stevie Collective'?

Texas Pete
Pete Kerezman (pete...@aol.com)

STRATQUEEN

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

<>

I know Liz well enough to know that she means only she and Chris = the "Stevie
Collective". She wouldn't lump all the rest of us into her views. She's never
been like that.

Greg Peterson

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

elizabeth & chris wrote:

>
> Backcrkr wrote:
>
> > Technically, music has five elements. Those are:
> >
> > a. Rhythm
> > b. Melody
> > c. Harmony
> > d. Timbre
> > e. Texture
> >

I'm not sure I necessarily agree with the above definition. What's
texture for instance and how come I have to have it? And what if you
are singing unaccompanied or playing solo sax (no harmony)? However...

> Robert Fripp Soundscapes have no rhythm.

I confess to not having heard this so I could be wrong, but I would be
real suprised if there wasn't a pulse, even if there is no drums etc.
But if there truely isn't a pulse, I would be inclined to put it in the
"not music" catagory, same as a babbling brook, ocean surf, etc.
Pleasing sounds perhaps but not music.

> Philip Glass has no melody.

If you can hum along it has melody.

> Gregorian Chants (before selling out in modern times) have no harmony.
> Some John Cage music doesn't have any of these elements.
>

> ESB

I think it would be a stretch to call silence 'music.'

--
Greg

evil twin®

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

On 14 Mar 1998 12:17:24 -0500, Stephane Boucher
<s...@nortel.ca_NO_SPAM> wrote:

>ha...@primary.net (evil twin®) writes:
>
>> And this is different from what a band like The Rolling Stones or Z.Z.
>> Top does in what way? Does the fact that Billy Gibbons can recite
>> somebody elses licks through his guitar make him musically superior to
>> a rapper who samples? And who's the real rip-off artist - the rapper
>> who pays to sample somebody elses music, or the white-boy blues guy
>> who steals riffs from all the unknowns who came before him and doesn't
>> pay them a dime.
>
>Actually, Billy Gibbons did give a custom made guitar to Albert King

That was mighty white of him...

elizabeth & chris

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

STRATQUEEN wrote:
>
> < have to do with 'The Stevie Collective'?>>
>
> I know Liz well enough to know that she means only she and Chris = the "Stevie
> Collective". She wouldn't lump all the rest of us into her views. She's never
> been like that.
>

I've been having a little trouble with my news program the last few
weeks, missing messages and stuff, so I never read the message that
Sharon is quoting.

The bit about the 'Stevie Collective' is from way back when Chris was
first awarded a Stevie, and he called us that because we were the first
Stevie couple. He uses it when we post together, generally in the
subject line since some people never look at the actual signature to see
who was writing the post.

ESB

STRATQUEEN

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

As time goes on and music evolves, the definition of "music" amongst all of us
music lovers is probably going to be stretched beyond traditional boundaries,
such as those Kevin described:

> > Technically, music has five elements. Those are:
> >
> > a. Rhythm
> > b. Melody
> > c. Harmony
> > d. Timbre
> > e. Texture

The fact of the matter is, music is constantly evolving.
I agree with Liz here......I, for one, don't like the idea
of music being restricted within traditional boundaries.
If I don't like something, I won't listen to it, let alone buy it.
It's that simple.

James Fuller

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Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

Greg Peterson wrote:

> If you can hum along it has melody.

I can hum along with a dial tone. Don't think it has much hit
potential, though. (Now watch somebody sample it and prove me
wrong...)

Andrew P. Mullhaupt

unread,

Mar 14, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/14/98

to

James Fuller wrote in message <350B21...@no.commercial.email>...

> I can hum along with a dial tone. Don't think it has much hit
>potential, though. (Now watch somebody sample it and prove me
>wrong...)

Um, does DTMF (touch tone) count? What was that hit with the four DTMF beeps
(Lena Lovitch or some such person) from the 80s?

Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt

Patrick F. Coleman

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

elizabeth & chris <bink...@concentric.net> wrote:

>Before you completely disregard rap as a form of music,
too late!

> please consider
>the following questions. Answer them for youself, and to your own
>satisfaction.
what's 'youself'? some of that there rapper code lingo?
=:0)

>1) Is Lou Reed _actually_ singing in "Take a Walk on the Wild Side"?
on and off yes.. and a great big doot do doot to you, too.
>2) If Laurie Anderson or William Burroughs is speaking over music, is it
>still music?
yes. the speaking is speaking. the music is music. Also, See John
Cage.
>3) Do you remember Sugarhill Gang's "Rapper's Delight"? (I believe it
>predates "Rapture" by a few years.)
Nope. I'm a pretty lucky guy, though.

>4) What is significantly different about Bobby McFerrin making drum and
>bass sounds and the Fat Boys making drum and bass sounds?
bobby is entertianing. the fat boys are fat.
>5) Public Enemy's work was mostly about racism and perceptions of
>racism. Do they fall into your "gangsta" category?
I don't have a gangsta category. I don't even like typing the word.

>6) Puff Daddy used "Every Breath You Take" as a piece of backup music.
>They don't sound like gangsters to me. What is that that they're doing?
whatever they can to make money. Wasn't that funny when sting went all
off pitch backing these guys up on that awards show? hee hee.

>7) How have Run DMC, The Beastie Boys, and Heavy D sold as many albums
>as they have without resorting to the "gangsta" thing?
"there's a sucker born every minute"...P.T. Barnum. (who was an
excellent caliope player, by the way.) (ok I just made that up because
I like the word 'caliope'.)
>8) Does an objective standard exist for art?
Yes. In fact I just took my son to an art exhibit.. we laughed and
laughed at the rusty iron welded together and named. Then, we talked
about a piece we saw on 60 minutes in which we saw recycling 'placed'
by art phonies and sold for thousands of dollars. Then, we talked
about symbolism, culture, context, talent, and some other stuff.
then we laughed and laughed and played helen reddy records backwards
while dancing over a pentagram and eating cinammon rolls.
so.. how was your week?
>(If you answer yes to #8, please send a copy of your answer to
>do...@thorin.instanet.com for judging and evaluation.)
For a copy of my answer to #8 will do...@thorin.instanet.com please
send me twenty bucks, or come to my house and carry the 'art' to the
curb and 'place' it for me.
>CsEsB - The Stevie Collective
Twang!
patrick f. collective..we don't need no steeeeking collective coleman

TWANG!

http://members.wbs.net/homepages/t/w/a/twangme.html
http://members.wbs.net/homepages/t/w/a/twangin.html
http://members.wbs.net/homepages/t/w/a/twangon.html

STRATQUEEN

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

No disrespect to ESB, but this was damned funny. ;-)

<<Yes. In fact I just took my son to an art exhibit.. we laughed and
laughed at the rusty iron welded together and named. Then, we talked about a
piece we saw on 60 minutes in which we saw recycling 'placed' by art phonies
and sold for thousands of dollars. Then, we talked about symbolism, culture,
context, talent, and some other stuff. then we laughed and laughed and played
helen reddy records backwards while dancing over a pentagram and eating
cinammon rolls. so.. how was your week?>>

Simply fab, dahling..... ;-)

>(If you answer yes to #8, please send a copy of your answer to
>do...@thorin.instanet.com for judging and evaluation.)

<<For a copy of my answer to #8 will do...@thorin.instanet.com please send me
twenty bucks, or come to my house and carry the 'art' to the curb and 'place'
it for me.>>

hee hee hee..... having made my living in art for several years before I
became an attorney, this is pretty funny......

SEFSTRAT

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

<<And since you corrolate your feelings about music being the same as
other arts it would seem to follow that you could fill in the word
"artist" above with writer, musician, or topless dancer. >>

Oh. So I DIDN'T equate "musician" with "artist". YOU did.

Just shows how wrong you can be.............but here's a copy of our home game,
and thanks for playing.

Steve
SEFSTRAT

Darius C Wei;951;icsg1;

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

> <<there's a line where you cross over into rip-off territory, and that
> Puff-Daddy definitely crossed it (as did MC Hammer with "Can't Touch
> This"). >>
> To Hammer's credit, he cleared it with Rick James before he did this, and James
> was compensated accordingly. Doesn't diminish the ripoff--buit he freely
> acknowledged it, and didn;t pose as an 'offended artist' at the suggestion.

A friend of my roommate, who is a rather large hip-hop, techno, and G&R
(go figure) fan, wrote an editorial in our college newspaper about remixes
versus ripoffs, citing the Puff Daddy song as a prime example of the
latter. The paper got somewhere around 100 negative responses to his
editorial, one of which even contained a blatant death threat. What were
we saying about violence, rap, and stereotypes? Oh yeah...
Anybody heard the techno remix of "Jack and Diane" yet? Sick, sick,
sick...

darius

Darius C Wei;951;icsg1;

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

On 14 Mar 1998, Carlginger wrote:

> Performance art?
> I call it shit, plain and simple.
> William Shatner singing "Mr. Tambourine Man" is performance art.

So is his acting...

darius

John Sheehy

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

"Paul Dragon" <NOSPAMp...@greenwood.net> writes:

>> Are we talking about a) a generalization about things you don't like or
>> b) _actual_ defecation?

>Well, the actual act of shitting sounds better than most of that unoriginal
>stuff that was in your list. Something about people who don't play any
>instruments, yet have multi million dollar recording contracts....it don't
>sit right.

Sounds like jealousy to me. Look, if you want to develop instrumental
craft, that's your prerogative, but if you think society as a whole
*owes* you money or recognition because you've done so, that's just a
lot of sour grapes. Instrumental craft is not the language of the
populace. If you want lots of money, you go where the money is, not
where you think it should be. You also have to have the "knack" (dare I
say "talent"?).
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><

John Sheehy

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

sefs...@aol.com (SEFSTRAT) writes:

>I generally will not respectr a person as an "artist" unless what they are
>doing requires some degree of talent...that it, the average shmoe in the genre

>should not be able to easily replicate it. In this I include writing, playing,
>painting, sculpture, whatever. Show me some uniqueness, please.

I would just like to point out the fact that the duller one's senses
are, the more likely they will perceive "replication" in any given
situation. You can't deny this.

STRATQUEEN

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

<< Anybody heard the techno remix of "Jack and Diane" yet? Sick, sick, sick...
>>

No, have you heard the remix of Paula Cole's "Where Have All the Cowboys
Gone"? I hope whomever sings the remix version live remembers to shave her
armpits before she goes on t.v. in front of millions of people!

Q: Where have all the cowboys gone?
A: They're all hiding in Paula Cole's armpits.

STRATQUEEN

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

<>

Huh?

elizabeth & chris

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

SEFSTRAT wrote:

> Oh. So I DIDN'T equate "musician" with "artist". YOU did.
>
> Just shows how wrong you can be.............but here's a copy of our home game,
> and thanks for playing.
>

That's right Steve, I'm wrong and you're right, as always. What was I
thinking! I must be really stupid. I bow down at your greatness. Hope
it makes you feel really superior. Have a nice fucking day.

ESB

John Sheehy

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

sefs...@aol.com (SEFSTRAT) writes:

><<Technically, music has five elements. Those are:

> a. Rhythm
> b. Melody
> c. Harmony
> d. Timbre
> e. Texture

> Rap contains at least three of those five elements.>>

>Thank you. This proves my point even more succinctly than I could have.

No, that's just some arbitrary list that somebody made up, and we are
not even told that all these things are necessary. Anyway, a raga
usually has no harmony. Does that make it not music? That's what your
interpretation of this chart would suggest. It would eliminate
percussion as well.

The definition that you desire for music is a lame attempt to cordon off
a style that irks you from any chance of validity ("It isn't even music,
so why discuss it").

To me, the main idea of "music" is that it is sound that is
(intentionally or not) perceived in a higher order of abstraction than
it's cold empirical compressions and rarefactions, and it's basic
semiotics of warnings and signals. Do I have to invent a new word for
this phenomenon, so that rap is not "music"?

John Sheehy

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

sefs...@aol.com (SEFSTRAT) writes:

>Nowhere have I stated that people shouldn't like, or listen to, rap. I could
>care less. I just said, "it isn't music". Period.

Well, at least one of your replies to me demonstrates beyond reasonable
doubt that you have a lot of hostility towards some phenomenon that you
associate with the style. This gives you a motive for being an unfair
and partial juror.

Kamchak Tuchuk

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

On 15 Mar 1998 14:57:57 GMT, strat...@aol.com (STRATQUEEN) wrote:

><< Anybody heard the techno remix of "Jack and Diane" yet? Sick, sick, sick...
>>>
>
> No, have you heard the remix of Paula Cole's "Where Have All the Cowboys
>Gone"? I hope whomever sings the remix version live remembers to shave her
>armpits before she goes on t.v. in front of millions of people!
>
>Q: Where have all the cowboys gone?
>A: They're all hiding in Paula Cole's armpits.
>

What's up w/ those Big Muffs under there?......

evil twin®

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

On Sun, 15 Mar 1998 00:59:49 -0500, "Darius C Wei;951;icsg1;"
<dcw...@cs.rit.edu> wrote:

> A friend of my roommate, who is a rather large hip-hop, techno, and G&R
>(go figure) fan, wrote an editorial in our college newspaper about remixes
>versus ripoffs, citing the Puff Daddy song as a prime example of the
>latter. The paper got somewhere around 100 negative responses to his
>editorial, one of which even contained a blatant death threat. What were
>we saying about violence, rap, and stereotypes? Oh yeah...

There wouldv'e been more death threats if he'd written something
negative about Christianity.

elizabeth & chris

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

SEFSTRAT wrote:
>
> <<Gregorian Chants (before selling out in modern times) have no harmony.>>
>

> They sure do. Octaves were considered harmony then...closer intervals > were seen
> as distatsteful for a looooong time.
>

OK, fine. I goofed. How about Syrinx. One flute player. Any harmony?
Also, doesn't this example you provide point out that the definition of
harmony changed and is not absolute?

> <<Some John Cage music doesn't have any of these elements.>>
>

> Yes, his record of complete silence is a materpiece. And it ain't music,
> either.

Did we single that one out? Actually the post says John Cage _music_,
dumbass. Some of his other stuff is as minimalist as Glass's work.

After Elizabeth gets done getting pissed off at you, she will be pissed
off at me for trying to defend her when she didn't think she needed
defending, and then I'll be looking for a different place to sleep.
Thanks a lot.

This is exactly what I get for trying to have a discussion with a
lawyer.

Cs

STRATQUEEN

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

In article <350AEE...@no.commercial.email>, James Fuller
<no....@no.commercial.email> wrote:

> Robb Scott wrote:
>
> > Claiming it's "not music" is extremely condescending to the millions
> > of folks who listen to and enjoy the stuff.
>
> Anything man-made that is enjoyed by millions almost by definition
> deserves condecension.

Why?

STRATQUEEN

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

I hate to admit it, but I think Carol Watson was right on when she wrote this
post last October 13th:

<<Protest music doesn't always sound like Bob Dillan. Protest music has goals
and the rappers are meeting theirs. Racists white America IS scared and the
ironic part is their kids are financing the whole thing.>>

It's the latter part of that statement that's got me worried......

Robb Scott

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

In article <6efo8s$ob9$1...@news1-alterdial.uu.net>,
Back...@NOSPAMnetexpress.net wrote:

> x-no-archive: yes
>
> >My beef is with people who claim it's "not music". It's the kind of thing
> >they used to say about Rock before Elvis and Bill Haley cleaned it up, and
> >everyone knew what was meant by it.
>
> At least the rock-n-rollers actually sang and played musical
> instruments. What the hell do rappers do?

They Rap, and play musical instruments. This not being 1954, those musical
instruments are samplers, sequencers and other studio technology.

> .....except to recite a bunch of
> vulgar tongue twisters to somebody else's music or a monotonous drum
> pattern?

Not always true, AFAIK. There are examples of Rap artists who don't go for
that stuff. Will Smith, Public Enemy...I don't follow it, so I don't know
of more. I used to sit in a cubicle next to a guy who played some Rap
stuff. The lyrics were mostly either political, or typical boy/girls
stuff, sometimes well done sometimes not. The music ws often very
interesting, sometimes not.

> Rap is the bottom of the musical food chain.

That may very well be true. But it is _on_ the musical food chain, which
is my very point, and thank you for conceding it...

Robb Scott

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

In article <350C01...@concentric.net>, bink...@concentric.net wrote:

> SEFSTRAT wrote:
>
> > Oh. So I DIDN'T equate "musician" with "artist". YOU did.
> >
> > Just shows how wrong you can be.............but here's a copy of our
home game,
> > and thanks for playing.
> >
>
> That's right Steve, I'm wrong and you're right, as always. What was I
> thinking! I must be really stupid.

No, you're just "Arrogant".

> I bow down at your greatness. Hope
> it makes you feel really superior.

Too late.

James Fuller

unread,

SEFSTRAT

unread,

Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

John Sheedy wrote:

>The definition that you desire for music is a lame attempt to cordon off
>a style that irks you from any chance of validity ("It isn't even music,
>so why discuss it").
>
>To me, the main idea of "music" is that it is sound that is
>(intentionally or not) perceived in a higher order of abstraction than
>it's cold empirical compressions and rarefactions, and it's basic
>semiotics of warnings and signals. Do I have to invent a new word for
>this phenomenon, so that rap is not "music"?
>--

Well, John, invent anything you want. But this is not MY definition, it's from
The American Heritage Dictionary. Webster's definition is substantially
identical:

music (my¡´zîk) noun
Abbr. mus.
1. The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous,
unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and
timbre.

I remain steadfast in my position. Rap doesn't fit the definition. Rail
against this all you like. You're entitled to your opinion, however, that
opinion, in this case, is not grounded upon any authoritative definition but
your own.

Steve
SEFSTRAT

SEFSTRAT

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

<<Well, at least one of your replies to me demonstrates beyond reasonable
doubt that you have a lot of hostility towards some phenomenon that you
associate with the style. This gives you a motive for being an unfair
and partial juror.>>

Well, I suppose if I ever need psychoanalysis from a distance, from someone
with neither the credentials nor the factual information to perform it, I
should call you.

You're so far off base, it isn;'t worthy of discussion. You have no clue of
what I think about the "style".

It's really not complicasted, John. My opinion, based upon authoritative
definitions of the word: Rap isn't MUSIC. That's all. Nothing more, nothing
less.

Now, I'm not talking about TASTES, you brought that into this matter. I mean,
it's well known on the NG that I think Neil Young's guitar solo in Cinnamon
Girl" is a piece of crap that mars an otherwise cool tune.....but I never once
denied that it was MUSIC.

Ever read Alice in Wonderland? "I mean what I say and I say what I mean".

Steve
SEFSTRAT

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

Backcrkr wrote:
>
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Greg Peterson <gsp...@concentric.net> wrote:

> >What's
> >texture for instance and how come I have to have it?
>
> Texture and timbre are very closely related ideas. Timbre has to
> do with the quality of the instrument or voice. It's why you can tell
> a trumpet apart from a piano. (Eventhough both instruments might be
> playing the same pitch). Texture has to do with the overall quality
> of the sound. Some music can be soothing. Some can be abrasive. When
> you listen to Bach's Goldberg variations for example, it will have a
> different texture than Metallica.

Thansk for the clarification.

>
> >And what if you
> >are singing unaccompanied or playing solo sax (no harmony)? However...
>
> Obviously, if you are singing or playing a monophonic instrument
> you won't be capable of producing harmony. However music needn't have
> ALL five elements all the time. It's just a commonly thought of way of
> breaking down music into integral components for study.

I might have mis-interpreted your post then. I thought you were saying
that because rap has only three of the five elements it's not music. I
realize that you didn't specifically say that, but I thought that's the
point you were trying to make.

I agree that for purposes of discussion it's good to have some working
definitions. If fact, I'm glad you posted some because you can't really
go anywhere without them.
However, since music doesn't have to have all five elements to be music
(by your definition), it might be useful for purpose of discussion to
come up with elements that are necessary for music. Then we could
compare those elements with Rap and see if it fits the defnintion. I
thought that's what you were trying to do.

>
> >I confess to not having heard this so I could be wrong, but I would be
> >real suprised if there wasn't a pulse, even if there is no drums etc.
> >But if there truely isn't a pulse, I would be inclined to put it in the
> >"not music" catagory, same as a babbling brook, ocean surf, etc.
> >Pleasing sounds perhaps but not music.
>
> Rhythm does not mean pulse. Everything in nature has a rhythm. A
> lot of people make the mistake of confusing rhythm with meter, pulse,
> tempo, etc... They're all different (yet related ideas).
>
> >If you can hum along it has melody.
>
> Not necessarily so. 12 tone rows are technically considered
> melodic. Yet, you'd be hard pressed to be able to hum along with that.

Your's and James' point well taken. Let me phrase it this way, if you
can't hum along with it, it doesn't have melody.

Based on that, I'd say Phillip Glass' works do have melody, so using him
as a counter-example isn't valid in this case.

>
> >I think it would be a stretch to call silence 'music.'
>
> So you don't think that a rest is a musical entity? (Even if it's
> a long rest)?
>
> Backcrkr

Oh Please. Silence (and I'm talking about actual silence, not rests.
But you knew that) does not contain any of your five properties of
music. You seem to be arguing that music doesn't have to have of any
your properites to be music. That's fine with me, but it's awfully weird
to make an assertion and then forcefully disagree with yourself.

--
Greg

Greg Peterson

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

>
> STRATQUEEN wrote:
>
> > < > senses are, the more likely they will perceive "replication" in
> > any given situation. You can't deny this.>>
> >
> > Huh?

I good example of this is the classic racist remark "All <insert racial
group here> look the same."

In reality, the speaker's sense are so dull he can only see major
features like skin color or eye shape.

We hear this same thing in music too. "All blues <or other music type
of your choosing> sounds the same. It's all I, IV, V."

Again, the speaker ust can't or won't hear the rich diversity.

--
Greg

Ross Stites

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

NoSpamW...@tiac.net (Robb Scott) writes:

>In article <6efo8s$ob9$1...@news1-alterdial.uu.net>,
>Back...@NOSPAMnetexpress.net wrote:

>> At least the rock-n-rollers actually sang and played musical
>> instruments. What the hell do rappers do?

>They Rap, and play musical instruments. This not being 1954, those musical

>instruments are samplers, sequencers and other studio technology.

These are called computers. By definition, anyone who utilizes one
is a programmer. This is a skill and takes some work, but it's
completely different from playing an *instument*. You're really
getting desperate if this is all the ammo you have to throw back
at the 'rap is not music' crowd.

Ross

Nick V Flor

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

I like this thread!!!

Just to play DA:

Isn't a monotone melody still a melody?

I like the definition (Backcrkr, SefStrat) gave of music consisting of
4 factors: melody, harmony, rhythm and timbre.

IMHO, however, different kinds of music emphasize different degrees of
these four factors. Maybe rap music has all these factors, just not to
the degree that you'd like it to?

Additionally, I think music has to have the four factors mentioned
above, *plus* it has to communicate something to you.

Don't ask me, because I don't know why. But it's like that, and that's
the way it is. ;-)

- Nick

Nick V Flor

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

Excerpts from netnews.rec.music.makers.guitar: 15-Mar-98 Re: The Stevie
Collective S.. by Ross Sti...@cs.umn.edu

> >They Rap, and play musical instruments. This not being 1954, those musical
> >instruments are samplers, sequencers and other studio technology.
>
> These are called computers. By definition, anyone who utilizes one
> is a programmer. This is a skill and takes some work, but it's
> completely different from playing an *instument*. You're really
> getting desperate if this is all the ammo you have to throw back
> at the 'rap is not music' crowd.
>
> Ross

No, you have a narrow definition of what a musical instrument is.
Lumping samplers and sequencers under "computers" is really naive.

- Nick

evil twin®

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

On 15 Mar 1998 22:29:02 GMT, sefs...@aol.com (SEFSTRAT) wrote:

>Fact is, your response is rooted in knee-jerk politically correct liberalism,
>not in reality.

That's about the third time you've said that. Could you please
elaborate on this idea of yours that anybody who disagrees with you
about the definition of music is a politically correct, knee-jerk
liberal?

evil twin®

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

On 15 Mar 1998 22:20:50 GMT, sefs...@aol.com (SEFSTRAT) wrote:

>music (my”“zīk) noun

>Abbr. mus.
>1. The art of arranging sounds in time

Sounds exactly like rap to me...

>so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition,

Yep, that's it...

>as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.

Since it doesn't say it _must_ contain those last four things, I'd say
rap qualifies. But that's just my
politically-correct-knee-jerk-liberal opinion.

evil twin®

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Mar 15, 1998, 3:00:00 AM3/15/98

to

On 15 Mar 1998 22:59:48 GMT, rst...@cs.umn.edu (Ross Stites) wrote:

>NoSpamW...@tiac.net (Robb Scott) writes:
>
>>In article <6efo8s$ob9$1...@news1-alterdial.uu.net>,
>>Back...@NOSPAMnetexpress.net wrote:
>
>>> At least the rock-n-rollers actually sang and played musical
>>> instruments. What the hell do rappers do?
>

>>They Rap, and play musical instruments. This not being 1954, those musical
>>instruments are samplers, sequencers and other studio technology.
>
>These are called computers. By definition, anyone who utilizes one
>is a programmer.

And anybody who plays an electric guitar must be an electrician.