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2-5-1 progression

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Gill Smith

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Feb 7, 2012, 3:03:21 PM2/7/12
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never heard the term before

apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs from
the
19302/40s

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/



matt

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Feb 7, 2012, 4:02:36 PM2/7/12
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much of today's music is 1-1-1

Joey Goldstein

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Feb 7, 2012, 5:41:06 PM2/7/12
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On 2/7/12 4:02 PM, matt wrote:
> much of today's music is 1-1-1

lol

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>

thomas

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Feb 7, 2012, 5:26:09 PM2/7/12
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On Feb 7, 3:03 pm, "Gill Smith" <gill.smith....@googlemail.com> wrote:
> never heard the term before
>
> apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs from
> the
> 19302/40s

It describes how jazz musicians have been harmonizing those songs
since the 1940s. I don't know of any 1930s popular songwriters who
wrote those changes.

Nicole Massey

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Feb 7, 2012, 7:23:24 PM2/7/12
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"thomas" <drthoma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:15d36751-e0ed-4193...@c20g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
II-B7-I is called a "First modality" progression because it moves in fifths
downward. It's the most common progression in popular jazz, even more common
than the blues progression. In fact the standard Jazz blues uses ii-v7-I-v7
for the last phrase of the blues a lot of the time.
For a nice trick in dealing with this progression take a stack of 12 (or if
you feel brave, 15) lined notecards and draw a staff on each one, broken up
to 4 bars. Over each one write the chords for a ii-V7-I progression with the
final I chord taking two bars. Then in the measures draw the scale of each
chord, leaving the chord tones empty and filling the other notes in the
scale. (just as a guide) Now shuffle your cards and pull as many as you like
out and line them up, eitehr as two bar or four bar phrases, and play
whatever you drew out of the pack.It's like instant jazz chord
progressions.I still have a set of these cards in a binder somewhere, even
though I can no longer use them. I bet someone could create a program where
I could sort them randomly, though.
I learned this in a jazz improv class a while back, and it's been useful. If
your'e really into learning this progression Jamey Abersold has a CD of
nothing but these progressions to jam over, just a rhythm section and no
melodies. I have it around here somewhere, and it's useful stuff. (They also
have a couple of records of just blues, too)


TD

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Feb 7, 2012, 8:48:00 PM2/7/12
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On Feb 7, 3:03 pm, "Gill Smith" <gill.smith....@googlemail.com> wrote:
Just curious if you've also never heard of the hoola hoop. It also
takes a while to get the hang of.

-TD

Tim McNamara

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Feb 7, 2012, 10:50:24 PM2/7/12
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In article <0s2dnZpLfP4IHqzS...@brightview.co.uk>,
"Gill Smith" <gill.sm...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> never heard the term before
>
> apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American
> songs from the 19302/40s

That terminology has been around for many years. It's usually expressed
in Roman numerals with capital numerals for major chords and lower case
for minor chords: ii - V - I

In G, for example that's Amin7 - D7 - Gmaj7

Or there's I - vi- ii - V- I

such as Gmaj7 - Emin7 - Amin7 - D7 - Gmaj7

Play those and you'll recognize the chord patterns heard in tens of
thousands of songs.

The blues is typically a I - IV - V ( G7 - C7 - D7).

Then there's the Nashville system used in country music which uses
Arabic rather than Roman numerals.

--
This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in
unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in.

Theodore Roosevelt

Joe Finn

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Feb 7, 2012, 11:37:21 PM2/7/12
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"Gill Smith" <gill.sm...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:0s2dnZpLfP4IHqzS...@brightview.co.uk...
2-5-1 is a basic variation of the dominant cadence. This is central to the
entire history of the western harmonic tradition*. ....joe

* Kindly excuse the redundancy.

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Or say hello via Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home



Joe Finn

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Feb 8, 2012, 12:03:19 AM2/8/12
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"thomas" <drthoma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:15d36751-e0ed-4193...@c20g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
That is an interesting point. The way in which the dominant cadence was set
up back in the 1930s was indeed a bit different. I am thinking of tunes of
that era such as After You've Gone, Sweet Sue, Ain't Misbehavin', Zing Went
the Strings, Three Little Words, etc. Diminished chords and minor 6ths were
in style so you didn't get that strong ii-V7 sound as much as what came
later. Then again there is Tea For Two to consider. That one has a pretty
definitive ii-V7-I thing happening. .....joe

Des Higgins

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Feb 8, 2012, 6:05:03 AM2/8/12
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ROFL

Jerry Freedman

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Feb 8, 2012, 7:56:28 AM2/8/12
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On Feb 7, 4:02 pm, matt <matelomit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> much of today's music is 1-1-1

It doesn't take fancy harmony to make good music. Bluegrass players
have been doing just fine with 3 or 4 chords.

thomas

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Feb 8, 2012, 10:19:50 AM2/8/12
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On Feb 8, 12:03 am, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
>
> Then again there is Tea For Two to consider. That one has a pretty
> definitive ii-V7-I thing happening.

That's a good counter-example. Do you think those were in the original
sheet music?

pmfan57

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Feb 8, 2012, 10:49:19 AM2/8/12
to
On Feb 8, 12:03 am, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
> "thomas" <drthomasfbr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
But IV V I has been used before jazz existed. ii V I is pretty
similar, don't you think, but with a different (stronger) bass
movement.

Joe Finn

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Feb 8, 2012, 11:11:35 AM2/8/12
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"thomas" <drthoma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4c736cf6-1150-4c2a...@m2g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
I don't have the original sheet music. The fake books generally have ii-V7-I
harmonies though. I'm not sure how else you would play that one. Maybe
somebody out there has the sheet music? ....joe

Nicole Massey

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Feb 8, 2012, 11:32:12 AM2/8/12
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"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7c79199d-3622-44ac...@b18g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
Let's not forget IIb-V7-I, which has also been used a lot dating back to the
Baroque era, though of course the first chord is usually in first inversion.
(I always liked to think of the Neopolitan chord as also a VI6, but with an
altered top note to give better tone movement)


335

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Feb 8, 2012, 2:26:10 PM2/8/12
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what is "fancy" harmony?

is bluegrass good music?

RS

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Feb 8, 2012, 3:41:07 PM2/8/12
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On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 17:48:00 -0800 (PST), TD <tonyde...@gmail.com>
wrote:
It requires a repetitive gyrating motion, and can cause people to back
away slowly, saying "what the hell is that weirdo tryng to do?". So
it is indeed similar to the Hoola Hoop.

Joe Finn

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Feb 8, 2012, 4:30:11 PM2/8/12
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"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7c79199d-3622-44ac...@b18g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
Agreed. You will find V I even in the earliest examples. History is full of
variations on this cadence. ......joe

TD

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Feb 8, 2012, 6:41:07 PM2/8/12
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Only when smoked.

Tim McNamara

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Feb 8, 2012, 9:16:11 PM2/8/12
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In article
<e070a9c2-e0cb-4b45...@j15g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Any song with something other than a I chord involved.

"Smokestack Lightning" would be a non-fancy tune.

> is bluegrass good music?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLiStyBGpdU

OK, not exactly bluegrass played by not exactly bluegrass musicians.
But an interesting take on "Naima" nonetheless, despite the lack of much
improvisation.

Matt Faunce

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Feb 8, 2012, 9:30:42 PM2/8/12
to
On Tuesday, February 7, 2012 7:23:24 PM UTC-5, Nicole Massey wrote:
> "thomas" <drthoma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:15d36751-e0ed-4193...@c20g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 7, 3:03 pm, "Gill Smith" <gill.smith....@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > never heard the term before
> >
> > apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs
> > from
> > the
> > 19302/40s
>
> It describes how jazz musicians have been harmonizing those songs
> since the 1940s. I don't know of any 1930s popular songwriters who
> wrote those changes.
>
> II-B7-I is called a "First modality" progression because it moves in fifths
> downward. It's the most common progression in popular jazz, even more common
> than the blues progression. In fact the standard Jazz blues uses ii-v7-I-v7
> for the last phrase of the blues a lot of the time.
> For a nice trick in dealing with this progression take a stack of 12 (or if
> you feel brave, 15) lined notecards and draw a staff on each one, broken up
> to 4 bars. Over each one write the chords for a ii-V7-I progression with the
> final I chord taking two bars. Then in the measures draw the scale of each
> chord, leaving the chord tones empty and filling the other notes in the
> scale. (just as a guide)

What? Under a Dm7 chord write e g b on the staff?

Matt

pmfan57

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Feb 9, 2012, 1:10:14 AM2/9/12
to
On Feb 8, 4:30 pm, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
> "pmfan57" <jwrag...@aol.com> wrote in message
Right. ii-V-I can be seen as a slightly dressed up V-I. V7-I is
pretty much the foundation of western tonality. Beethoven thought
enough of it to make it practically the last minute of the fifth
symphony.

Greg D

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Feb 9, 2012, 5:20:22 AM2/9/12
to
On Feb 7, 4:02 pm, matt <matelomit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> much of today's music is 1-1-1

And yesterday's music, too - like some CCR tunes.

TD

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Feb 9, 2012, 7:12:16 AM2/9/12
to
> symphony.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Was originally IV V I. ii made a more interesting (more as in an
ancillary stance) bass line movement. ii simply replaced IV. So, IV
being needed in those times, it was more than merely "dressing up" the
V. It acted as a 'counter-weight.' Although, ii can be seen as
dressing up the V. Some chords are "all dressed up, yet have no place
to go."

-TD

Joe Finn

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Feb 9, 2012, 11:17:07 AM2/9/12
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"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:84c3ce6f-63fa-403f...@gi10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
I also think that this is very much I keeping with the natural order of
things. Where dividing the octave into x number of intervals is a cultural
and at least somewhat arbitrary decision, the overtone series itself gives
us a very strong V to I sound since the 5th is the strongest harmonic other
than the octave. ....joe

335

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Feb 9, 2012, 11:29:29 AM2/9/12
to
On Feb 8, 8:16 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLiStyBGpdU
>
> OK, not exactly bluegrass played by not exactly bluegrass musicians.

that's what I like about it.



Bg

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Feb 9, 2012, 12:41:44 PM2/9/12
to

Bg

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Feb 9, 2012, 12:44:31 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 8:29 am, 335 <335pla...@gmail.com> wrote:
The rythmn guitarist shouldn't be playing the the low roots on his
chords, they clash with the Bass player's pedal, nice tho.

Bg

pmfan57

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Feb 9, 2012, 1:32:11 PM2/9/12
to
> >>>Right.  ii-V-I can be seen as a slightly dressed up V-I.  V7-I is
> >>>pretty much the foundation of western tonality.  Beethoven thought
> >>>enough of it to make it practically the last minute of the fifth
> >>>symphony.
>
> I also think that this is very much I keeping with the natural order of
> things. Where dividing the octave into x number of intervals is a cultural
> and at least somewhat arbitrary decision, the overtone series itself gives
> us a very strong V to I sound since the 5th is the strongest harmonic other
> than the octave.   ....joe
>
> --
> Visit me on the web  www.JoeFinn.net
> Or say hello via Facebook:http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

But when it really kicked in is when they made the V chord a seventh
chord. That really strongly wants to resolve because of the interval
between the 3 and 7th. All of which you already know of course, from
intro to music 101. Cool that someone, probably Monteverdi, actually
invented it in the early 17th century. It was quite controversial
among theoretitians at the time.

Tim McNamara

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Feb 9, 2012, 3:42:45 PM2/9/12
to
In article
<99787f48-1f43-437d...@tj4g2000pbc.googlegroups.com>,
In the same vein of not exactly bluegrass musicians playing not exactly
bluegrass- "So What" with Grisman and Garcia from the Sweetwater.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00zpD-zl7T0

thomas

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Feb 9, 2012, 3:54:36 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 8, 3:41 pm, RS <R...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> It requires a repetitive gyrating motion, and can cause people to back
> away slowly, saying "what the hell is that weirdo tryng to do?".  So
> it is indeed similar to the Hoola Hoop.

Also, playing with the hula hoop and the ii V I progression will both
reduce your odds of getting laid.

TD

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Feb 9, 2012, 5:33:46 PM2/9/12
to
Unless you are in Tahiti during a mutiny.

Bg

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Feb 9, 2012, 9:02:35 PM2/9/12
to
>
> In the same vein of not exactly bluegrass musicians playing not exactly
> bluegrass- "So What" with Grisman and Garcia from the Sweetwater.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00zpD-zl7T0
>
I'm very pleasantly surprised, neat.
Bg

Graham

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Feb 10, 2012, 7:18:26 AM2/10/12
to
On Feb 9, 8:54 pm, thomas <drthomasfbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Also, playing with the hula hoop and the ii V I progression will both
> reduce your odds of getting laid.

yeah for that, best stick to 1-1-1 and loads of distortion.

Jim

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Feb 10, 2012, 2:41:44 PM2/10/12
to

"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote in message
news:jgsves$pdv$1...@news.datemas.de...
> "thomas" <drthoma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:15d36751-e0ed-4193...@c20g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 7, 3:03 pm, "Gill Smith" <gill.smith....@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> never heard the term before
>>
>> apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs
>> from
>> the
>> 19302/40s
>
>>>>It describes how jazz musicians have been harmonizing those songs
>>>>since the 1940s. I don't know of any 1930s popular songwriters who
>>>>wrote those changes.
>
>
> That is an interesting point. The way in which the dominant cadence was
> set up back in the 1930s was indeed a bit different. I am thinking of
> tunes of that era such as After You've Gone, Sweet Sue, Ain't Misbehavin',
> Zing Went the Strings, Three Little Words, etc. Diminished chords and
> minor 6ths were in style so you didn't get that strong ii-V7 sound as much
> as what came later. Then again there is Tea For Two to consider. That one
> has a pretty definitive ii-V7-I thing happening. .....joe
> --
> Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
> Or say hello via Facebook:
> http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home
>
>
I always thought What is This Thing...(1929) was an interesting example. The
original Porter version is basically all V chords, which became ii-V's in
the jazz versions.
Jim


Gill Smith

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Feb 22, 2012, 11:18:50 AM2/22/12
to
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote in message
news:jh0rai$j55$1...@news.datemas.de...


> Or say hello via Facebook:
> http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home

hmmm, are you sure that's the page you want punters to land on?

'cos it takes to Facebook's front door, not your page

I'm cursing my way through Suckerbergia right now

I can see how people spend their lives navigating this maze

but why?

I can't believe this pile of **&^%$£" triumphed over the competition

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/


Greg D

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Feb 22, 2012, 3:55:31 PM2/22/12
to
On Feb 7, 3:03 pm, "Gill Smith" <gill.smith....@googlemail.com> wrote:
> never heard the term before
>
> apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs from
> the
> 19302/40s
>
> --http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/

Also 2-5-1 is how Joe Pass approached soloing over tunes... at least
that's what he said in one of his videos. According to him, everything
could be approached as 2-5-1.

Tim McNamara

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Feb 22, 2012, 8:16:46 PM2/22/12
to
In article
<6bcd5c0e-497e-4455...@p12g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
And Joe even condensed that further to V-I, considering the ii chord as
a version of the V chord.

Greg D

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Feb 22, 2012, 9:38:06 PM2/22/12
to
On Feb 22, 8:16 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article
> <6bcd5c0e-497e-4455-8a70-615bc03cb...@p12g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
Now, if you could condense it even further to say, the I chord, I
might have a chance!

Tim McNamara

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Feb 23, 2012, 12:27:03 AM2/23/12
to
In article
<a6e5f1de-5c5a-4f82...@f2g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
Greg D <oas...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 22, 8:16 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <6bcd5c0e-497e-4455-8a70-615bc03cb...@p12g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>,
> >  Greg D <oasy...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Feb 7, 3:03 pm, "Gill Smith" <gill.smith....@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > never heard the term before
> >
> > > > apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs
> > > > from
> > > > the
> > > > 19302/40s
> >
> > > > --http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/
> >
> > > Also 2-5-1 is how Joe Pass approached soloing over tunes... at least
> > > that's what he said in one of his videos. According to him, everything
> > > could be approached as 2-5-1.
> >
> > And Joe even condensed that further to V-I, considering the ii chord as
> > a version of the V chord.
>
> Now, if you could condense it even further to say, the I chord, I
> might have a chance!

Well.... tonal center players do sort of do that (and sometimes sound
like that's what they're doing).

TD

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Feb 23, 2012, 7:10:20 AM2/23/12
to
> might have a chance!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The V chord can be viewed as even more important than the I chord for
your needs, because it acts as herald of the coming I chord. Every one
is somebody elses fifth.

-TD

Pepe Papon

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Mar 11, 2012, 3:35:28 AM3/11/12
to
On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:55:31 -0800 (PST), Greg D <oas...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Dick Grove developed a whole system of music theory around that idea.

Bill Williams

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Mar 11, 2012, 7:20:18 AM3/11/12
to
"Also, playing with the hula hoop and the ii V I progression will both
reduce your odds of getting laid."

Only partially correct: this is a common fallacy in relation to the hoop although it does probably apply to the modern plastic hoops first popularized in the 50's.

The earlier authentic hoops were of course made from dried up willow, rattan, grapevines, or stiff grasses and in 14th century England were popular for both recreation and religious ceremonies. Most historians accept that hooping was positively associated with procreation-related practice.

On the other hand, the ii, V, I progression (also known as the imperfect cadence for obvious reasons) has been shown in a number of empirical studies to significantly reduce opportunities for coital activity.

TD

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Mar 11, 2012, 8:40:30 AM3/11/12
to
Yea, but that's only on the other hand.

-TD

pmfan57

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Mar 11, 2012, 10:35:57 PM3/11/12
to
On Mar 11, 3:35 am, Pepe Papon <hitmeis...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:55:31 -0800 (PST), Greg D <oasy...@gmail.com>
Except that Joe completely disregarded the ii chord and treated the
whole thing based on the V7 chord.
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