That Muddy Jazz Tone - why?
Ken Kearney
This is a thread just started over at delcamp.net.
Fair to say it's one of the most viewed classical guitar forums out
there.
Our comrades over at rmcg generally look down at it, but there's a lot
of traffic.
Maybe some of you would post over there.
You be like Klattu arriving in D.C.
A visitor from another world.
k
Kevin Collins
off dynamics, makes it harder for other musicians to even hear you,
makes the guitar solo even more forgettable than the upright bass solo
to the layperson, artificially limits the instrument's overtones even
more than playing an amplified instrument already does, and masks a
lot of subtleties in one's playing. Aside from that, it's not really
my cup of tea.
-Kevin
rpjazzguitar
restaurant, the tone is often muddy sounding. My guess is that it
doesn't sound as muddy where they're sitting (next to the amp), but it
sounds worse in the audience. My thought is that they'd sound better
if they got the amp off the floor and moved it a little further away
from themselves.
I don't hear Wes, Joe Pass or Jim Hall as muddy at all. Not Charlie
Christian either. In fact, I can't name a muddy player on record. I'm
guessing all the early guys wanted to sound like saxophones and not
like banjos or Hawaiian guitar, both of which were popular back then.
Jeremey Poparad
I've really grown to dislike that traditional, muddy tone as well. I
still like a warm tone, but I'm always self-conscious about it become
too dark and muddy. I use roundwound strings to help keep some more
brilliance in the tone, my guitar (an ES-135) is naturally a bit
bright, and I play through a Fender tube amp, which can also be a bit
bright. I roll off the tone on the guitar and amp a bit, but only
because the starting point is a country-esque level of brightness. I
find that voicings that involve more complex intervals (2nds, 7ths,
etc) can't really be heard well at all with that muddy tone, which is
ok for simpler, more conventional voicings.
As rpjazzguitar said, most well known players don't have a super dark
tone, like Joe Pass, who often had a fairly bright tone (which isn't
what I'm going for either). Guys like Jim Hall often have a pretty
ideal balance of warmth without sacrificing clarity.
onlyserious
finally see Kenny Burrell a few years ago at Yoshi's in Oakland where
he was playing his 175 through a Fender Twin but his tone was so dark
it was like listening to a drummer play only tom toms with a mallet
for ninety minutes. On the other hand, I'm unable to sit through more
than a tune or two of Barney Kessell's because it is so dry as to be
scratchy in a most annoying way. Early John Scofield, on the other
hand, was so widely chorused as to sound so out of tune, I couldn't
deal with it. (I love his more recent mid-90's on stuff.)
OK...So here's my all-time favorite guitar sound: Bireli Lagrene's
"Standards" CD. He's playing an unidentified (to me,at least) solid-
body guitar (can't tell what it is from the picture, but the side view
indicates a maple neck, and a fine-tuning bridge) through (maybe) a
high-end outboard reverb, mixed by EMI,in Paris, and it's a Blue Note
CD. Amazing straight-ahead (not much Gypsy vibe) trio playing. The
sound is so beautiful--I much prefer it to the fat Gibsons he played
since.
A close second is Martin Taylor's "Artistry" CD, where he plays his
Yamaha Archtop and was recorded and produced by Steve Howe. A
favorite solo recording.
Finally...I must say I've learned more about guitar sounds by watching
Jack Zucker's product demo postings than I would have evre guessed.
rpjazzguitar
I love Jim Hall, including his warm tone.
I did not like Pass' tone consistently. My favorite album of his, Tudo
Bem, is great despite his tone, not because of it.
Wes had great tone, astonishing really, but not so much on the early
albums.
I never cared much for Tal's tone, nor Barney's. Chuck Wayne had good
tone.
Chico Pinheiro gets a great sound on both nylon and steel. And, he
gets it consistently, no matter what he's playing through.
Metheny gets great tone -- and when he started with his liquid sound,
decades ago, I'd never heard anything like it. One note and you knew
it was him.
But, my current favorites are the guitar sounds I hear on smooth jazz
recordings. It's like jazz, but with a little bit of Mark Knopfler
thrown in. I don't hate the music as much as a jazz fan should and I
typically love the guitar tones. I don't know the players. I only hear
this stuff on the radio.
Joey Goldstein
together with that tone and I don't like the way individual tones in
chords can jump out at you with a brighter tone.
I do it as an expression of being cool and detached and not wanting to
grand stand. I think it sort came about in that Birth Of The Cool era
via folks like Jim Hall.
I also do it because it minimizes the sound of the fingers sliding
across the strings.
But mostly I'm just trying to ape the tone of my favourite players like
Jim Hall, Ed Bickert and Pat Metheny.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Joey Goldstein
> I do it because I like the way that the notes of chords all mush
> together with that tone and I don't like the way individual tones in
> chords can jump out at you with a brighter tone.
>
> I do it as an expression of being cool and detached and not wanting to
> grand stand. I think it sort came about in that Birth Of The Cool era
> via folks like Jim Hall.
>
> I also do it because it minimizes the sound of the fingers sliding
> across the strings.
>
> But mostly I'm just trying to ape the tone of my favourite players like
> Jim Hall, Ed Bickert and Pat Metheny.
>
Oh yeah...
It also de-emphasizes a note's attack and tends to enhance the sustain.
icarusi
news:b20302ec-c535-4a78-9284-
I think it started as an easy way to get a compressed sound, which would sit
better in live situations with other groups of instruments, and easier to
produce sustained notes and chords which remained audible in those settings.
Later it became the defacto 'tone' for jazz guitarists, set that tone and
you're halfway to setting the expected 'vibe'. It still works for that
purpose, also sounds similar to a lot of eminent players who've already used
that sound, but now compressors and distortion are available to get the same
or similar results. A lot of the modern players use a variety of tones and
techniques now, but the big-box-jazz-guitar use is predominently set to the
velvet-hammer tone of yore.
OTOH Charlie Christian used a relatively modern sound, tone and technique
and Freddie Green more like a mellowed banjo, so there was no 'given' that
the velvet hammer tone would predominate. If there was a wood boring insect
which thrived on 'velvet hammer' tone.................?
icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
Kevin Collins
> While we're whining about tones... I was never so disappointed as to
> finally see Kenny Burrell a few years ago at Yoshi's in Oakland where
> he was playing his 175 through a Fender Twin but his tone was so dark
> it was like listening to a drummer play only tom toms with a mallet
> for ninety minutes. On the other hand, I'm unable to sit through more
> than a tune or two of Barney Kessell's because it is so dry as to be
> scratchy in a most annoying way. Early John Scofield, on the other
> hand, was so widely chorused as to sound so out of tune, I couldn't
> deal with it. (I love his more recent mid-90's on stuff.)
>
Really? Even "Rough House"-era Scofield?
> OK...So here's my all-time favorite guitar sound: Bireli Lagrene's
> "Standards" CD. He's playing an unidentified (to me,at least) solid-
> body guitar (can't tell what it is from the picture, but the side view
> indicates a maple neck, and a fine-tuning bridge) through (maybe) a
> high-end outboard reverb, mixed by EMI,in Paris, and it's a Blue Note
> CD. Amazing straight-ahead (not much Gypsy vibe) trio playing. The
> sound is so beautiful--I much prefer it to the fat Gibsons he played
> since.
>
I need to check that one out. Mine may be Bobby Broom on "The Way I
Play", though there are some semi-hollowbody sounds that kill me as
well.
-Kevin
sheetsofsound
of the 50s and 60s into a totally dead tone. Compare Pat Martino's
current sound with the sound from the Lean Years CD. Back then, it was
fat but it was also bright, clean and spanky. Later, on conciousness,
it sounds like he started turning the tone control to 0. IMO that
works in very quiet duo and trio settings but not in louder bands. The
current trend of deadtone is not one of my favorites. For a good
modern but traditional jazz guitar sound, I like Jesse Van Ruller's
tone.
Phil
Name one classic, well known player that has a "muddy" tone.
Dan Adler
It's all taste, I guess. "Consciousness" is my favorite Martino album
by a wide margin and I love his tone on that. It goes right to your
kishkes. Just to set the record straight, Martino did not invent the
"dark" jazz tone and neither did Jim Hall. Like everything I like in
jazz guitar, it all comes from Joe Pass. Listen to "CED" on "Sounds of
Synanon" and it's all there. That power-punch percussive sound that
floors you and goes right to your gut. The thin trebley sound makes me
hit the fast forward button almost immediately unless it's played by a
grand master like Benson (like on "Ode to a Kudu" from weekend in LA,
which I can listen to from now to eternity). Benson's sound is rich in
overtones because he plays with a flat left hand finger and you get
all that flesh in his sound which makes it dry and yet sustainy and
rich in overtones. People who just press lightly with the tip and turn
up the treble just sound painful to my ears.
pmfan57
I prefer Martino's dark, yet woody, sound on Exit to his tone on
Consciousness. And I prefer the LP sound on Consciousness to that on
the CD, which was actually thinned out, maybe in an attempt to make it
brighter. I love the playing Pat does on Consciousness.
There are so many variations though. Martijn van Iterson gets a great
sound. Nice and jazzy, but not muddy.
Who are the press (holly go) lightly players? Can you name names?
Ken Kearney
together with that tone and I don't like the way individual tones in
chords can jump out at you with a brighter tone."
Interesting that you say that Joey. I've been working on cg rep and
general technique, and in that frame of reference (yes, totally
different)
You build your tech in such a way to decides which string you want to
dominate.
"I also do it because it minimizes the sound of the fingers sliding
across the strings."
Also here cgists work on technique to minimize squeaking.
What's this got to w/ jazz guitar?
Nothing, just interesting because of the difference.
Ken
Ken Kearney
Hi Phil-
It's not my thread, just thought it would be of interest, because
it was originally posted on a cg list.
Though I do agree w/ the several posters here who see it as a general
trend. Not necessarily pervasive, but a tendency nevertheless.
Ken
Jazzer
wrote:
>
>Name one classic, well known player that has a "muddy" tone.
Ed Bickert.
Ken Kearney
Hi Kevin-
I agree w/ you here 100%.
That's all why I switched to nylon strings.
Take care,
Ken
Tim McNamara
<11ee100f-682e-4ce6...@j19g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
Phil <pdem...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Pat Martino on "Remember" among other things.
Jon Fox
news:11ee100f-682e-4ce6...@j19g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
Pat Martino?
--
*************************************
Jon Fox
Instructor of Commercial Music
McLennan Community College
www.jonfoxjazz.com
Jazzer
wrote:
>>Name one classic, well known player that has a "muddy" tone.
>
>
>
>Pat Martino?
Yes I would agree. I don't have a lot of early Martino albums but I
do have Exit and it's muddy.
I prefer his more recent tone that I've heard on his Youtube videos.
Blues Fuse
I prefer Martino's tone on "El Hombre" over his later work. From what
he has said in a couple of interviews, it was a Johnny Smith into a
Twin.
George Benson actually uses a very light touch with his left hand--
just enough to get the note to sound clearly. People seem to talk a
lot about "Benson" picking technique, but a big part of his sound is
his left hand.
rpjazzguitar
group.
Everyone one of them sounded too bassy.
At least they did from my seat on the side of the room.
Late in the evening, I got to sit right in front of the band.
The guitar sounded so much better, I thought he'd changed something.
To check, I walked back to my old seat, where it sounded just as bad
as before.
This was Anna's Jazz Island. It seats maybe 100? The PA is a Bose L1
or L2.
Bg
the sound and feel of Sax Players, which meant fattening up the sound
and to get rid of some of the attack on each note, and to do it with
somewhat under powered tube amps of the day.
Bg
Dan Adler
Of course, the ABSOLUTE holy grail sound is Joe Pass on "For Django".
That is the sound by which all sound is judged. It is the speed-of-
light constant of sound. All other sound can just hope to converge to
it at the limit, but never quite reach it.
:-)
Ken Kearney
My CG teacher in graduate school thought Joe Pass was one of the
worst players he ever heard! : ' 0
That's odd or at least unusual for cg teacher to say that about JP.
Most cgists have a lot of respect for jazz players because of the
improv.
Also the theory aspect. I've been surprised to discover that music
thoery seems to be thought of as an "extra" in cg rather than the
essential tool it is in jazz.
K
Joe Finn
> http://www.delcamp.net/forum/en/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45395
>
> This is a thread just started over at delcamp.net.
> Fair to say it's one of the most viewed classical guitar forums out
> there.
> Our comrades over at rmcg generally look down at it, but there's a lot
> of traffic.
>
> Maybe some of you would post over there.
> You be like Klattu arriving in D.C.
> A visitor from another world.
>
> k
There are a multitude of examples of generations of jazz guitarists who play
with a dark, clean, clear sound that is not "muddy". In popular music
twangy, steely, processed guitar sounds are more typical but you can't hold
jazz guitar to that standard. Jazz guitar has it's own aesthetic. .....joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
pmfan57
> In article
> <11ee100f-682e-4ce6-8091-72468d744...@j19g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> Phil <pdema...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 7, 11:30 am, Ken Kearney <ken...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >http://www.delcamp.net/forum/en/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=45395
>
> > > This is a thread just started over at delcamp.net.
> > > Fair to say it's one of the most viewed classical guitar forums out
> > > there.
> > > Our comrades over at rmcg generally look down at it, but there's a lot
> > > of traffic.
>
> > > Maybe some of you would post over there.
> > > You be like Klattu arriving in D.C.
> > > A visitor from another world.
>
> > > k
>
> > Name one classic, well known player that has a "muddy" tone.
>
> Pat Martino on "Remember" among other things.
All right. I'll grant you that one. I can't even listen to that
album.
Bob
If you are not keen on the typical ES175 type "Jazz Tone" try a Hofner
New President or Jazzica. They certainly sound different, lighter and
less bassy perhaps because of the pick up position and the carved
solid top. I am lucky enough to have a New President and an ES175 and
love both of them!
Bob
Kevin Collins
> Name one classic, well known player that has a "muddy" tone.
Metheny, especially "Trio 99-00". Great playing, but I almost wish I
could hear it all through his "Bright-Size Life" rig.
Tim McNamara
<435ee195-f0d7-4b48...@m13g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>,
pmfan57 <jwra...@aol.com> wrote:
It sounds best in my car, actually, and I can hear Pat enough to tell
that the playing is top-notch and brilliantly manages to both pay
tribute to Wes while preserving Pat's own style. On my home stereo it's
much worse, I think because my car stereo tends to attenuate the lows
which makes the mix sound muddier.
Tim McNamara
<d35c78b8-4cff-43f0...@g1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
Ken Kearney <ken...@gmail.com> wrote:
Maybe that teacher was miffed about Joe refusing to record with John
Williams. The story- possibly apocryphal as is the case with so many
stories in jazz- I've heard is that Williams contacted Joe's management
about doing a record and that Joe replied "He can't play 'Sweet Georgia
Brown' and I'm not gonna practice, so what would we play?"
Paul Mitchell Brown
That makes two of us. What happened there? Sounds like it was recorded
underwater!
Paul Mitchell Brown
Agreed. JvR's tone is bright but woody (cello-like?). His touch is
superb and he has an incredible command of dynamics. I have a few
recordings where he's playing with other guitarists and he just takes
control every time (with the possible exception of that clip posted a
year or two ago with Peter Bernstein). Billy Bean's playing had that
same quality - the notes have an almost palpable shape and the lines
have such profile and authority.
Paul Mitchell Brown
> Name one classic, well known player that has a "muddy" tone.
Tiny Grimes? :-)
Phil
> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 19:27:39 -0800 (PST), Phil <pdema...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Name one classic, well known player that has a "muddy" tone.
>
> Ed Bickert.
No way. Ed's tone is fat and sweet with clarity. Muddy has none of
those qualities.
pmfan57
Muddy said "I'm a man. I spell M. A. N. Man...."
He was fat and sweet too. Hmm. We must be thinking of a different
Muddy.
pmfan57
Just such a disaster of a mix. But he swears by it. I just don't
understand.
Claus Rogge
> My CG teacher in graduate school thought Joe Pass was one of the
> worst players he ever heard! : ' 0
>
> That's odd or at least unusual for cg teacher to say that about JP.
If virtuoso 1 was the only thing he�d heard, he might be excused ;)
--
Music at the iTunes Store:
http://tinyurl.com/57ots3
The rest of it:
http://tinyurl.com/73efjm
Flammarion
> George Benson actually uses a very light touch with his left hand--
> just enough to get the note to sound clearly.
I would hope evey competent player does that. Excess pressure
hurts your fingers, slows you down, and can force notes out
of tune. I don't see any upside to it.
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message
<31884d56-670c-4a24...@r3g2000vbi.googlegroups.com> :
>On Nov 7, 11:16�pm, Dan Adler <d...@danadler.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 7, 8:56�pm, sheetsofsound <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > I also dislike the way many players have morphed the jazz guitar sound
>> > of the 50s and 60s into a totally dead tone. Compare Pat Martino's
>> > current sound with the sound from the Lean Years CD. Back then, it was
>> > fat but it was also bright, clean and spanky. Later, on conciousness,
>> > it sounds like he started turning the tone control to 0. IMO that
>> > works in very quiet duo and trio settings but not in louder bands. The
>> > current trend of deadtone is not one of my favorites. For a good
>> > modern but traditional jazz guitar sound, I like Jesse Van Ruller's
>> > tone.
>>
>> It's all taste, I guess. "Consciousness" is my favorite Martino album
>> by a wide margin and I love his tone on that. It goes right to your
>> kishkes. Just to set the record straight, Martino did not invent the
>> "dark" jazz tone and neither did Jim Hall. Like everything I like in
>> jazz guitar, it all comes from Joe Pass. Listen to "CED" on "Sounds of
>> Synanon" and it's all there. That power-punch percussive sound that
>> floors you and goes right to your gut. The thin trebley sound makes me
>> hit the fast forward button almost immediately unless it's played by a
>> grand master like Benson (like on "Ode to a Kudu" from weekend in LA,
>> which I can listen to from now to eternity). Benson's sound is rich in
>> overtones because he plays with a flat left hand finger and you get
>> all that flesh in his sound which makes it dry and yet sustainy and
>> rich in overtones. People who just press lightly with the tip and turn
>> up the treble just sound painful to my ears.
>>
>> -Danhttp://danadler.com
>
>I prefer Martino's dark, yet woody, sound on Exit to his tone on
>Consciousness. And I prefer the LP sound on Consciousness to that on
>the CD, which was actually thinned out, maybe in an attempt to make it
>brighter. I love the playing Pat does on Consciousness.
>
>There are so many variations though. Martijn van Iterson gets a great
>sound. Nice and jazzy, but not muddy.
>
>Who are the press (holly go) lightly players? Can you name names?
For a while when it seemed like everyone was playing a Bennedeto, I
never liked the recorded sound of those guitars. I'm not going to
dismiss someone's playing because of the way their guitar sounds, but
I could never listen to those records much because the bright sound
was annoying to me. I agree with Jack about JvR's sound though. He
has a fairly bright tone but it still is round and warm too.
________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
Check out my brand new CD "Play the Music of Horace Silver"
http://www.kevinvansant.com
Stu
> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 21:15:42 -0800 (PST), pmfan57 <jwrag...@aol.com>
> wrote in message
> <31884d56-670c-4a24-b8f2-fc70b190c...@r3g2000vbi.googlegroups.com> :
>
> - Show quoted text -
Personally I'm not into 'dark' sounds but could be in a solo
situation. I find when playing in ensembles it pays to have some
'brightness' otherwise the sound seems to disappear.
Greger Hoel
<kvan...@pobox.com>:
> For a while when it seemed like everyone was playing a Bennedeto, I
> never liked the recorded sound of those guitars. I'm not going to
> dismiss someone's playing because of the way their guitar sounds, but
> I could never listen to those records much because the bright sound
> was annoying to me.
For me the enjoyment stops when the chirp becomes harsh, but I've heard
that sound from shitloads of different jazzboxes, not just Benedettos.
Even on Joe Pass' laminates. I love this kinda sound though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnITpsh42Ks
Isnt' that a Benedetto?
--
Always cross a vampire; never moon a werewolf
drthoma...@gmail.com
> Ken Kearney <ken...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > My CG teacher in graduate school thought Joe Pass was one of the
> > worst players he ever heard! : ' 0
>
> > That's odd or at least unusual for cg teacher to say that about JP.
>
> If virtuoso 1 was the only thing he´d heard, he might be excused ;)
Joe's RH CG technique was crap, and some people only listen for the
chops they can hear.
Phil
Yeah, you call him sweet to his face... :)
pmfan57
wrote:
He toured with Elliot Fisk, among others towards the end of his life.
Elliot Fisk has expressed great admiration for Joe Pass. Here is some
of what he has had to say.
335
excellent. thanks for posting.
drthoma...@gmail.com
Bg
>
> He toured with Elliot Fisk, among others towards the end of his life.
> Elliot Fisk has expressed great admiration for Joe Pass. Here is some
> of what he has had to say.
>
> http://www.eliotfisk.com/wordpress/?p=27
Wow, what an insightful interview about Joe P.
Bg
Bg
>
> For me the enjoyment stops when the chirp becomes harsh, but I've heard
> that sound from shitloads of different jazzboxes, not just Benedettos.
> Even on Joe Pass' laminates. I love this kinda sound though:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnITpsh42Ks
> Isnt' that a Benedetto?
It seems to be a Benedetto, with the little 12th fret Inlay.
Bg
>
Claus Rogge
> http://www.eliotfisk.com/wordpress/?p=27
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing
tom walls
>
> He toured with Elliot Fisk, among others towards the end of his life.
> Elliot Fisk has expressed great admiration for Joe Pass. Here is some
> of what he has had to say.
>
> http://www.eliotfisk.com/wordpress/?p=27
Thanks for that, Joe!
ScotGormley
I lent my Ovation steel string to an acquaintance for one week. The
guitar was 20 years old with minimal fret wear, although I played it
almost every day for 20 years. When I got the guitar back, it had huge
indentations in the frets, and the fingerboard was all scuffed. The
lendee said that he plays with heavy left hand pressure to make the
notes "more there." Totally ridiculous, and now my Ovation needs a
refret.
ScotGormley
> That is the sound by which all sound is judged. It is the speed-of-
> light constant of sound. All other sound can just hope to converge to
> it at the limit, but never quite reach it.
>
> :-)
>
> -Danhttp://danadler.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The "For Django" tone is beautiful, but I love the Pat Metheny dark
sound, too.