Is the JS sound dead in the next generation?

[mark cleary]

In the interest of better discussion I ask this. The recent posting of some
Johnny Smith stuff on youtube had me go back and listen again. He was a huge
influence and I have all the original recordings. Well had not listen to
them for years but going back it sounds so fresh and clean. It may not swing
in the sense of Wes or be like some Raney lines but it just sounds
listenable. So I say do the younger players under 30 have much idea of him
and is this type of playing in essence dead. I guess things evolve but I
sure would like to keep hearing it. Smith plays so right and even if you
think he worked it out ahead is still requires the ability to execute clean
and swing. Nostalgia?

Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Catholic Church

[Jim Soloway]

I certainly don't think it's nostalgia. Smith was a brilliant player whose best work holds up very well. But for all his brilliance I do think he was something of a dead end on the evolutionary tree. It's really hard work to play like that and there's not a huge payoff at the end.

[Paul K]

On 8/22/12 10:06 AM, Jim Soloway wrote:
> I certainly don't think it's nostalgia. Smith was a brilliant player whose best work holds up very well. But for all his brilliance I do think he was something of a dead end on the evolutionary tree. It's really hard work to play like that and there's not a huge payoff at the end.

Jimmy Bruno's playing reminds me of Johnny Smith.

--
Paul K
http://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboy
http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk
http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/

[Gerry]

On 2012-08-22 12:22:24 +0000, mark cleary said:

> In the interest of better discussion I ask this. The recent posting of
> some Johnny Smith stuff on youtube had me go back and listen again. He
> was a huge influence and I have all the original recordings. Well had
> not listen to them for years but going back it sounds so fresh and
> clean. It may not swing in the sense of Wes or be like some Raney lines
> but it just sounds listenable.

It's sonically beautiful, unpretentious and not overly athletic/flashy
guitar music.

> So I say do the younger players under 30 have much idea of him and is
> this type of playing in essence dead.

I'm not sure who they under 30 (jazz) players have ideas of, but don't
think Johnny Smith is generally considered one of the names to study
and emulate for whatever tips and tricks they might want to absorb or
aid in constructing a style. Yes, this type of playing is "dead" in
the sense that it is not a popular approach to music. Too mellow (we
have smooth jazz for "mellow" now), or to swing (we have campy swing
for the one audience and we have hard-driving swing for another).

> I guess things evolve but I sure would like to keep hearing it. Smith
> plays so right and even if you think he worked it out ahead is still
> requires the ability to execute clean and swing. Nostalgia?

Yeah, I think so. Keep your old recordings in good repair. I could
say the same thing about George Barnes style, who I am a great fan of,
particularly his work with Ruby Braff. But that style too seems to be
long gone with no possibility of return.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

[Charlie X]

Johnny is still one of my top 3 guys..i listen to him a lot.
I play some of his solos on gigs and they go over nicley. People who dont know him seem to like him instantly.
But i agree he is not on the 'hot' list for many young guys.
I took a stab at 'whats new'...i think his version is one of the best. I do it on gigs now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l0QyTl_BUI

[pmfan57]

One reason is that he is not really a big time jazz single note
improvisor among guitarists (and so he hasn't developed as big a
"school" at least with regard to his lines (also some of that stuff is
pretty hard)). He himself acknowledged that he wasn't a jazz
guitarist in the sense that Jimmy Raney was a jazz guitarist.
But his playing is superb and wonderful to listen to. I think a lot
of his solos are worked out. Does anyone have any actual knowledge as
to whether this is true?

He has been copied as to chordal things. Benson says he was a big
influence on his solo playing and he gives at least one example in his
video. One day hopefully Benson will record a whole solo album and
maybe we'll hear even more chordal stuff borrowed by George.

[Gerry]

On 2012-08-23 03:59:59 +0000, mylesgtr said:

>>
>> He has been copied as to chordal things.  Benson says he was a big
>> influence on his solo playing and he gives at least one example in his
>> video.  One day hopefully Benson will record a whole solo album and
>> maybe we'll hear even more chordal stuff borrowed by George.
>

> I had dismissed him for a while because of the idea that his solos
> were not improvised (I don't remember where/who that idea comes from
> or if it's true). But, after hearing Benson speak so warmly of him, I
> decided to give him another listen and quickly remembered why I had
> fallen in love with Moonlight in Vermont when I first heard it (it was
> one of the first albums I heard when I got interested in jazz).

Actually he himself has often said that he doesn't consider himself a
jazz player. I have never heard him quoted as saying all his solos
were worked out and not improvised, but have heard that repeated many
times. Even if they're not worked out rigidly and performed just so,
he may have been improving within a very fixed framework.

It hardly matters. His playing is beautiful and his music is lovely.
It doesn't move me emotionally and for this reason I don't *prefer* his
recordings to others I prefer many more of them to his. That doesn't
make his music less than lovely.

It still has a very well-laundered 50's sound to it and I don't mean
that as an insult.

[van]

Classical players are starting to appreciate him.
And the rock players who get tired of distortion, freak out when they hear him.
JS has had more staying power than most guitarists, because he dealt with sonority in a much more effective fashion than any jazz guitarist ever did. The guy hasn't made a record in almost 50 years, yet people are still blown away when they hear his stuff. He just knew how to get the strongest, warmest, clean tone out of an archtop when he recorded his LPs.
He can still appeal to rock and traditional classical people more than most jazz guitarists because he kept things simple, almost triadic harmonically, and used a very musical sounding clarity.
I could understand calling the muzak that guys like Tony Mottola, Al Caiola, etc... nostalgia, but there was too much musical purity in what JS did to equate it with that stuff.

[Tim]

Very nice video.

Thanks!

[David J. Littleboy]

Seconded; that's a friggin' amazing video.

-- David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

[335p...@gmail.com]

agreed. and his technical approach was a big influence on a lot of people who didn't necessarily play like him but did follow his general approach. I seem to recall Pat Martino saying that JS was a big influence on him.

[Charlie X]

THANKS TIM AND DAVE!! Its nice to see a positive remark once in a while!!

Thanks again fellas.

Chas

On Thursday, August 23, 2012 2:44:52 AM UTC-4, David J. Littleboy wrote:
> "Tim" wrote: On Aug 22, 2:31 pm, Charlie X <diymu...@excite.com> wrote: > Johnny is still one of my top 3 guys..i listen to him a lot. > I play some of his solos on gigs and they go over nicley. People who dont > know him seem to like him instantly. > But i agree he is not on the 'hot' list for many young guys. > I took a stab at 'whats new'...i think his version is one of the best. I > do it on gigs now. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l0QyTl_BUI Very nice video. Thanks! <<<<<<<<< Seconded; that's a friggin' amazing video. -- David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan

ng

[Tim]

On Aug 23, 4:32 pm, Charlie X <diymu...@excite.com> wrote:
> THANKS TIM AND DAVE!! Its nice to see a positive remark once in a while!!
>
> Thanks again fellas.
>
> Chas
>
> On Thursday, August 23, 2012 2:44:52 AM UTC-4, David J. Littleboy wrote:

> > "Tim" wrote: On Aug 22, 2:31 pm, Charlie X <diymu...@excite.com> wrote: > Johnny is still one of my top 3 guys..i listen to him a lot. > I play some of his solos on gigs and they go over nicley. People who dont > know him seem to like him instantly. > But i agree he is not on the 'hot' list for many young guys. > I took a stab at 'whats new'...i think his version is one of the best. I > do it on gigs now. > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l0QyTl_BUIVery nice video. Thanks! <<<<<<<<< Seconded; that's a friggin' amazing video. -- David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
>
> ng

Sure thing! Yeah Charlie, I've subscribed to your Youtube channel. Jim
Soloway's too.

That's one reason why i was attracted to this NG, because of the
talent and professionalism of many of the posters. I've really
enjoyed the videos and recordings posted and have learned a lot about
choices of guitars, pickups, tail pieces strings, for starters. Not
counting the education on theory etc.

Put up some more! They're good stuff!

[thomas]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:22:24 AM UTC-4, mark cleary wrote:

You can hear JS's approach very clearly in Pat Martino, a strong influence on subsequent generations.

[Gerry]

On 2012-08-24 00:30:14 +0000, thomas said:

> You can hear JS's approach very clearly in Pat Martino, a strong
> influence on subsequent generations.

Can you? Not me. I find their styles radically different so if there
is a technical connection, I can't here it. That's not to say Martino
didn't admire Smith. I just find their music radically and their styles
radically different.

[thomas]

I hear it in the tone and picking approach, not so much the melodic and harmonic aspect.

[Tim]

Maybe Smith admired Martino?

[Gerry]

On 2012-08-24 00:48:29 +0000, Tim said:

> On Aug 23, 7:34 pm, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2012-08-24 00:30:14 +0000, thomas said:
>>
>>> You can hear JS's approach very clearly in Pat Martino, a strong
>>> influence on subsequent generations.
>>
>> Can you?  Not me. I find their styles radically different so if there
>> is a technical connection, I can't here it.  That's not to say Martino
>> didn't admire Smith. I just find their music radically and their styles
>> radically different.
>

> Maybe Smith admired Martino?

Hell, everybody admires both, but we don't necessarily sound like
either--or want to!

[Joe Finn]

"mark cleary" <mcle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:k12iu8$cfr$1...@dont-email.me...

He does not sound nostalgic to me. I think he had a highly evolved and
personal approach to his work that you can hear in players that came later
on. I love his playing. Those records never get old. ......joe

--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net

[Mitch]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:22:24 AM UTC-4, mark cleary wrote:

Johnny's music was simply beautiful in the best sense of the word, and he played it perfectly (also in the best sense of the word).
Admittedly, his solos didn't take me away like some others, but everything he did was masterful, and extremely difficult to navigate (Us guitarists knew that!). His "Man With the Blue Guitar" remains one of my favorite records of all time, and I practically wore out many of his others. That guitar tone!...'And that Mosaic Box...
Mitch
Mitch