Improv over Giant Steps changes
defo...@worldnet.att.net
individual chord changes? I'm a hacker... be gentle...
thanks
hw
<defo...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:7339311c-6145-4bb7...@v12g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> Any hints on improving over Giant Steps. Tonal center? Over the
> individual chord changes? I'm a hacker... be gentle...
>
> thanks
try Am7 for D7 and Fm7 for Bb7, and play over |Bj7 Am7|Gj7 Fm7|Ebj |
Or substitute the V with the IV and play off these chord pairs |Bj7 Cj7|Gj7
Abj7| Ebj | or the related minor chords |G#m7 Am7| Em7 Fm7| Cm7|
it's a very nice tune to practice slow.
hth
Joey Goldstein
Play the tune slow.
All you need is facility with 3 major scales to be able to play through
this tune.
B major, G major and Eb major.
Find a spot on the fretboard where you're comfortable playing all 3 of
these scales.
Eg. B major in Pos VI, G major in Pos VII, and Eb major in Pos VI or VIII.
Then identify where the keys change.
On any Bmaj7 F#7 or C#m7 chords, you're in B. Use the B major scale.
On any Gmaj7 D7 or Am7 chords, you're in G. Use the G major scale.
On any Ebmaj7 Bb7 or Fm7 chords, you're in Eb. Use the Eb major scale.
The tricky part is that the keys often change in the middle of the bar.
So play slow.
Don't worry too much about "playing what you hear" when you first start
doing this. Chances are that you can't "hear" this stuff yet anyway, or
you wouldn't be asking these questions.
Just develop the ability to change these scales correctly at the correct
times, and be an observer of what that sounds like. That's how you'll
learn to "hear" it.
For a primer on some ideas of what to do with these scales, after you
know how to play them and to change them at the right time, look at John
Scofield's video here:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R284Kov6tU&feature=channel_page>
I've got some scalar technical exercises here too:
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/TechEx/techex.htm>
Again...speed isn't the issue here. Play at a slow tempo and you *will
be able to play on this tune*. *Then* work at speeding it up.
Try it as a bossa nova too, not just swing.
Here's a trick the more advanced players might like for this tune.
Try the B augmented scale (B D D# F# G A# B) over the *entire* form of
this tune.
It sounds silly if that's all you do. But if you mix it up with more
traditional ways of playing on these changes it's a nice contrast.
The trick is, of course, to not get lost...because when you're using
that one-scale approach through the entire form it's easy to forget
where you are in the form.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Joey Goldstein
Also helps if you convert the longer duration maj7 chords to maj7#5.
Rick Stone
play a series of Dominant to Tonic Resolutions. EVERYTHING is a pickup!
F#7 B
D7 G
Bb7 Eb
etc.
You basically ARE just playing tonal centers. It's just important to
realize that tonal centers don't "start" on the I, the start on the V7. If
you practice this way for a while, you'll see it's actually a pretty easy
tune (compared to many).
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: http://www.rickstone.com
Visit me on MySpace at: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
Check out my Electronic Press-Kit online at:
http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Check out my recordings at http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Watch my videos on YouTube at: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
"hw" <nob...@home.com> wrote in message
news:grj7bp$qsb$01$1...@news.t-online.com...
southtexasguitarist
Hi,
I just had my first semester improv class work on this tune. I use
band-in-a-box for this kind of thing and we worked a lot with the
"Expand" the chord durations X 2 on the edit menu, so the changes
lasted a measure rather than two beats. We even did it longer so they
could get comfortable playing each chord. After they did this for a
while it didn't seem as daunting to play the chords for less duration,
because they had a better handle on where the notes were.
Short, chord-oriented patterns are good to practice on this, such as 1
3 5 7 or even 1 3 5 3, and Coltrane himself used the pattern 1 2 3 5
extensively on each chord on the classic recording.
Clay
rlemos...@gmail.com
Hello,
In the latest issue of Just Jazz Guitar (no. 58, February, 2009), I
wrote an article "Shredding Coltrane Changes with the Basic Pentatonic
Scale."
In this article, I demonstrate a "cheating" way to solo over these
chord changes. With this approach you can solo over the entire song
using only one pentatonic scale shape. Even better, it is the easiest
of all the pentatonic scales since it is the first one you ever learned
--the basic Minor Pentatonic Scale (i.e. shape of Am Pentatonic Scale
at 5th fret using two frets per string).
By focusing only on this basic pentatonic scale shape, you are able to
solo over Giant Steps at close to the your maximum soloing speed.
I realize that my approach is antithetical to the more "correct"
approaches to jazz improvisation. I talk about these approaches in the
article (with references) and I believe they are totally valid and
useful. My approach is designed as an alternative approach that will
allow you to solo over this difficult song, no matter what your
current level is. You don't need to be a virtuoso to get enjoyment
from tackling this song. Also, it can be used exclusively or be
combined with any other approach that you find useful.
The article is based on my book "Jazz Guitar Soloing Concepts: A
Pentatonic Modal Approach to Improvisation", Chapter 32: Coltrane
Changes and Giant Steps, (Hal Leonard, 2009). If you want to find more
info on book, please check out:
http://instructional1.calstatela.edu/rlemos/jazz_guitar_improvisation_using.htm
The mp3 examples from this article are on the Just Jazz Guitar
Website:
http://justjazzguitar.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=68
Examples 1 & 2 show a simple two string repeating pattern (slow and
fast) over the changes.
Solos 1 & 2 show an example solo (slow and fast) based on this system.
The article also lists many great versions of Giant Steps by
guitarists on CD that may be of interest: Check out excerpt below (My
fav is Jimmy Bruno's from Burnin--however, all are great!):
Straight Ahead:
Jimmy Bruno, Burnin
Mark Elf, Mark Elf Trio
Mike Stern, Give And Take
John Scofield, Now (John Patitucci is leader)
Jazz Bossa:
Pat Metheny, Trio→Live
Howard Roberts, The Magic Band II
Solo Guitar:
Joe Pass, Virtuoso 2
Jimmy Bruno, "Solo"
Jazz Fusion:
Greg Howe, A Guitar Supreme: Giant Steps In Fusion Guitar
Jennifer Batten, Above Below And Beyond
Scott Henderson, Vital Tech Toness
Let me know if you feel this approach might be useful to you.
Regards,
Ron
paul s
If you can find a transcription of Coltrane's solo, try playing a few
choruses of that on guitar (starting at a slow tempo). Most of it is
very "inside", he mostly outlines the changes.
Paul S
d...@danadler.com
> Think of the tune as starting on the last chord (as a pickup), then just
> play a series of Dominant to Tonic Resolutions. EVERYTHING is a pickup!
>
> F#7 B
> D7 G
> Bb7 Eb
>
> etc.
>
> You basically ARE just playing tonal centers. It's just important to
> realize that tonal centers don't "start" on the I, the start on the V7. If
> you practice this way for a while, you'll see it's actually a pretty easy
> tune (compared to many).
>
> Musically Yours,
> Rick Stone
> website:http://www.rickstone.com
> Visit me on MySpace at:http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
> Check out my Electronic Press-Kit online at:http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
> Watch my videos on YouTube at:http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
>
> "hw" <nob...@home.com> wrote in message
>
> news:grj7bp$qsb$01$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
>
>
> >news:7339311c-6145-4bb7...@v12g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> >> Any hints on improving over Giant Steps. Tonal center? Over the
> >> individual chord changes? I'm a hacker... be gentle...
>
> >> thanks
>
> > try Am7 for D7 and Fm7 for Bb7, and play over |Bj7 Am7|Gj7 Fm7|Ebj |
>
> > Or substitute the V with the IV and play off these chord pairs |Bj7
> > Cj7|Gj7 Abj7| Ebj | or the related minor chords |G#m7 Am7| Em7 Fm7| Cm7|
>
> > it's a very nice tune to practice slow.
>
> > hth
Rick,
That's a great simplifying insight, and certainly one worth spending a
lot of time on.
Still, it's hard to overestate the importance of Coltrane's SOLO on
this tune on everything that followed in jazz. Pretty much 90% of the
Liebman/Grossman/Brecker/Berg/Margitza/Bergonzi/<insert name>
vocabulary comes from the raw material in Coltrane's GS and Count Down
solos. In the "Lighthouse Omnibook" DVD Liebman himself mentions how
scary it is to see his solos written out and to see how many times he
repeats the same 4-note pattern elements in the same solo - but it
swings and it's played with passion so the listener doesn't ever get
tired.
So, I would encourage anyone to get 2-3 choruses of each of those
solos under their fingers, especially since the transferring of these
musical ideas to guitar is full of technical challenges.
paulmitc...@gmail.com
behind the series was to recreate the kind of exercises Coltrane
himself may have written when preparing himself to play through the
changes. I therefore worked backwards by taking distinctive melodic
figures from Coltrane's own solo and recombining a couple of them for
each study. This particular exercise employs a 1-2-3-5 pattern (and
its inversion) and descending arpeggio exclusively:
This should help get you started. From there, try out the excellent
suggestions offered here by Holger, Joey, Rick and Clay, make up some
of your own exercises and transcribe like crazy.
Also, don't forget that besides guitarists and sax players, there are
plenty of great piano versions to check out. Tommy Flanagan was
justifiably tentative on the original recording as he had no idea that
Coltrane would call such a fast tempo. However, the version on his
'Giant Steps' trio recording for Enja is wonderful. For sheer velocity
and wealth of ideas, check out the incredible version by Kenny Drew Jr
(A Look Inside).
Kevin Collins
You're a hacker? Just break into Trane's mainframe!
Sorry. I'd refer to Trane's solo, not just for literal mining of his
ideas but to check out the smooth connections made between the
"distant" chords, especially the BMaj-to-V-of-GMaj -type modulations
and EbMaj-to-ii-V-of-GMaj -ones. Check out how, at tempo with that
rapid a harmonic pace, his ideas are very distilled, down to 2-4 very
strongly representative pitches per chord. It's worth looking at this
period of his soloing on this, Countdown, Spiral, 26-2, but also
earlier work on Moment's Notice and Lazy Bird for this kind of thing.
Look at playing, as he did, mostly chord-outlining lines (even 1-2-3-5
can be viewed as harmonic-sounding, a simple compressed Maj-add9
sound) that would, even without accompaniment, yield the sound of the
progression.
But also try incorporating some of the earlier bebop language of
chromatic encircling of target-notes...or, imagine what Bird would've
sounded like playing GS. Just as a way of keeping clear of the old
sounds-like-Trane trap that we all can fall into on these changes,
especially since Trane himself obviously didn't stick with playing
this material for too long. (I still recall an interview with Frank
Tiberi, in which he claimed that he had audio footage of Trane playing
it live, but I haven't seen it surface yet.....drool, drool...)
Right now, I'm checking out Trane's work on his middle-Impulse-period
stuff, where he's using some of the same ideas from his GS solo in
modal contexts, but expanding the ideas in interesting ways. Miles'
Mode from the Vanguard set of '61, and Impressions from Newport '63 in
particular - yummy. And I would check out the recording Dan mentioned
- Elvin Jones' Lighthouse set, and do the work yourself of
transcribing things that catch your ear from Liebman and Grossman,
especially on "Fancy Free".
Back to the original topic, Kenny Garrett does some unexpected things
with GS on his "Triology" recording, sounding beautifully relaxed and,
for want of a better word, *himself*. He's a great guy for checking
out phrases and pauses of different lengths, and modernistic ideas
coming as often from Woody Shaw as from Trane. Bob Mintzer and Michael
Brecker ("Twin Tenors") did a version together, too, and it's hardly
worth mentioning that there's a goldmine there.
-Kevin
defo...@worldnet.att.net
Thanks Joey!! You nailed it. I had sorta gotten to the 3-scales, but
as you said the change of tonality in the middle of a bar is tearing
my heart out. And yes... I don't really "hear" it yet. It's not the
sorta of tune I'd whistle while mowin' the yard... I'm much more the
old "melodic" standards. I listened to Coltrane "blow' over the
changes... I'm not sure I "like" the tune... but his genius is
apparent! What an animal!
And thanks again Joey. You've been a real help.
Steve
defo...@worldnet.att.net
Thanks to all of you! Fantastic tips that sound almost doable for a
hacker like me. Can't thank all of you enuf!!
Steve
Five Sharp
> the tune...
So why play it then?
#####
d...@danadler.com
There is also a great book of GS exercises by Joe Diorio that comes
with a CD of him playing most of them, including some chord melody
ideas in his unique style.
Derek
>So why play it then?
Great question, because I don't particularly like the tune either.
When I hear guys play it, whether live or on youtube, it often comes
across sounding more like an exercise to me than a melodic tune.
Bruno's total destruction of it on Solo is my fav uptempo, but Joe
Pass's approach of treating it like a ballad speaks to me the most,
and how I try to play it.
I have messed with it, because like playing Donna Lee at tempo, being
able to navigate this set of changes is a rite of passages for
jazzers.
Rick Stone
If you think of the changes as 2 beats + 2 beats, it leads to very
mechanical playing. The Coltrane solo is great, but it definitely IS
mechanical.
A long time ago, Barry Harris pulled my coat to this: Instead of thinking
"1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &", try thinking of the rhthms as "2 & 3 & 4 & 1" with 3
beats on the Dominant and only 1 beat on the Tonic. This approach gives you
much more time to develop melodic phrases and in my opinion it swings a
whole lot better.
This is along the same lines as what Hal Galper (who I also studied with)
talks about in his "Forward Motion" book.
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: http://www.rickstone.com
Visit me on MySpace at: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
Check out my Electronic Press-Kit online at:
http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Check out my recordings at http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Watch my videos on YouTube at: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
"Rick Stone" <rick...@rickstone.com> wrote in message
news:knaDl.2485$6n....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
Five Sharp
> Great question, because I don't particularly like the tune either.
About the only take of this tune I like is Coltrane愀 classic take. For the
rest I think most people should just leave this tune alone, especially those
that perceive it as a rite of passage ... or those that ask what to play
over its changes.
#####
Joey Goldstein
IMO
Even if you don't like it, it's a tune that you have to deal with if you
want to be a modern player.
There's tons of things you can learn about playing jazz by working on
this tune even if you never go out and perform it anywhere.
335p...@gmail.com
> Five Sharp wrote:
> >> I listened to Coltrane "blow' over the changes... I'm not sure I
> >> "like" the tune...
>
> > So why play it then?
>
> > #####
>
> IMO
> Even if you don't like it, it's a tune that you have to deal with if you
> want to be a modern player.
> There's tons of things you can learn about playing jazz by working on
> this tune even if you never go out and perform it anywhere.
>
I have a Coltrane transcription book and I've played through some of
the solos. Frankly, they seem pretty mechanical to me, mostly
arpeggios and repeated patterns like 1235, which is completely
understandable on a tune of that complexity and tempo. What are you
saying are the main lessons to take from the tune? With only limited
time to practice I've never found Giant Steps to be a top priority.
Five Sharp
The chord movment in 3rds is really interesting and useful.
I have a Coltrane transcription book and I've played through some of
the solos. Frankly, they seem pretty mechanical to me, mostly
arpeggios and repeated patterns like 1235, which is completely
understandable on a tune of that complexity and tempo. What are you
saying are the main lessons to take from the tune? With only limited
time to practice I've never found Giant Steps to be a top priority.
Yes, many people sound so mechanical and repetitive on it (I'm sure I
would). As a studies like Joey says this tune probably makes sense but to
actually go out and perform it? I would not dare.
There's this guy Don Nick (who's he?) who has some guitar takes on it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q9SmMAGeto
and a very fast take here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MWDnyWUAfg
#####
Joe Finn
news:7339311c-6145-4bb7...@v12g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> Any hints on improving over Giant Steps. Tonal center? Over the
> individual chord changes? I'm a hacker... be gentle...
>
> thanks
Listen to several recordings of the tune. Transcribe some of the solos. The
chords change fast so find examples of various horizontal concepts in the
recordings; there are many from which to choose.
Practice this tune very slowly at first. Be patient. Don't rush.
If all else fails play chord tones. ...joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Jonathan (Cleve)
> > Great question, because I don't particularly like the tune either.
>
> rest I think most people should just leave this tune alone, especially those
> that perceive it as a rite of passage ... or those that ask what to play
> over its changes.
>
> #####
I'm inclined to agree with ##### on this. I've always felt that way
about people who want to get wayyyyy outside. There have always been a
very short short list of people who can do that well. And while it's
laudible to want to emulate Trane, falling way short can get really
ugly.
335p...@gmail.com
well, the progression is "outside" because it moves in intervals that
you wouldn't expect, but the way Coltrane handles the changes is not
really outside at all. On the versions I've heard it sounds like he's
playing chord tones and diatonic patterns.
Kevin Collins
> The chord movment in 3rds is really interesting and useful.
> I have a Coltrane transcription book and I've played through some of
> the solos. Frankly, they seem pretty mechanical to me, mostly
> arpeggios and repeated patterns like 1235, which is completely
> understandable on a tune of that complexity and tempo. What are you
> saying are the main lessons to take from the tune? With only limited
> time to practice I've never found Giant Steps to be a top priority.
There is some modern and off-mainstream repertoire that contains
fragments of GS's harmonic elements, the examples that immediately
spring to mind being "Toy Tune" (Wayne Shorter) and "Question and
Answer" (Pat Metheny). It can serve as a bridge toward more modern (in
the sense of, "from the last45 years", heh) harmonic composition and,
if you're inclined, improvisation over that composition. Depends what
your goals are, I suppose.
jazzmankg
> On Apr 9, 12:04 pm, 335pla...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > The chord movment in 3rds is really interesting and useful.
> > I have a Coltrane transcription book and I've played through some of
> > the solos. Frankly, they seem pretty mechanical to me, mostly
> > arpeggios and repeated patterns like 1235, which is completely
> > understandable on a tune of that complexity and tempo. What are you
> > saying are the main lessons to take from the tune? With only limited
> > time to practice I've never found Giant Steps to be a top priority.
We got into the topic of Giant Steps analysis pretty heavy on this
thread on AAJ if you're interested:
http://forums.allaboutjazz.com/showthread.php?t=37815&highlight=giant+steps&page=2
(my post is #25)
Joey Goldstein
1. For a beginner it's good training in impovising in time with 3
different major scales.
2. For a beginner it's good practise for learning to arpeggiate ii-V-I
progressions.
3. It trains you to be able to hear modulations to keys that
traditionally are unrelated. Good to practise in all 12 keys, or at
least several of them.
4. It trains you not to get lost. I.e. With this tune you *have to* be
aware of where you are at every point in the form. There's no
bullshitting, unless you use my aug scale trick.
5. It trains you to be aware of aspects of the language that most modern
jazz players are using in their playing. Eg. Melodic cells transposed to
various degrees of the chromatic scale. Frequent and rapid scale
changes. Etc.
6. It makes you think about when and where it works and doesn't work to
use altered tensions on V7 in a V7-I progression.
7. Once understood, this progression can be used in all sorts of ways
including reharmonization and superimposition.
With limited time to practise you probably should work on something else.
For someone who's serious about playing modern jazz it's pretty hard to
avoid this tune.
Joey Goldstein
I was playing at the faculty jam of my college a few weeks ago.
Darcy Hepner (tenor player and full-time faculty member) called Giant
Steps *in 5* for some reason. I think he'd been drinking.
We all, a real good drummer and bass player, tried to play it by
following him.
When the train wreck was all over I realized that we'd all played all
the way through in 7! Badly. But we didn't get lost. It was fast too.
I think our students in the audience had a good lesson that day, in what
not to do.
Still can't figure out how anybody would play this in 5.
Jonathan (Cleve)
>
> well, the progression is "outside" because it moves in intervals that
> you wouldn't expect, but the way Coltrane handles the changes is not
> really outside at all. On the versions I've heard it sounds like he's
> playing chord tones and diatonic patterns.
Yep, I agree.
But Trane did a lot of pretty outside recordings later in his career.
That was the stuff I was referring to.
Joey Goldstein
>
> well, the progression is "outside" because it moves in intervals that
> you wouldn't expect, but the way Coltrane handles the changes is not
> really outside at all. On the versions I've heard it sounds like he's
> playing chord tones and diatonic patterns.
It's a hard progression to blow over and make melodic sense without
staying fairly diatonic most of the time.
Altered tensions on the dom7 chords almost always sound out of place.
But Trane points the way on tunes like Countdown where he often uses b9
and #9 quite successfully.
Keith Freeman
lesson in how pattern-playing _can_ transcend the mechanical aspect and be
musical and emotional.
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
ken
> About the only take of this tune I like is Coltrane´s classic take. For the
> rest I think most people should just leave this tune alone, especially those
> that perceive it as a rite of passage ... or those that ask what to play
> over its changes.
Kreisberg has a great version of Countdown on one of his CDs and I
like Metheny's version of Giant Steps. Lovano does a great Countdown
slowly.
This is not a rite of passage any more than Bird is for bebop sax
players.
It's just part of the modern day jazz vocabulary. Nobody *has* to
deal with it, of course. But it is actually kind of a big part of the
modern jazz vocabulary of today for better or for worse...
Ken
Derek
>
> This is not a rite of passage any more than Bird is for bebop sax
> players.
>
> It's just part of the modern day jazz vocabulary. Nobody *has* to
> deal with it, of course. But it is actually kind of a big part of the
> modern jazz vocabulary of today for better or for worse...
Really? Rite of passage was my term. If you play out in a jazz
setting, it IS going to get called.
Since it does break from tradition some with the major 3rd thing, what
are you going to play over it if you don't spend time with it?
pmfan57
> (my post is #25)
Thanks Jon.
Obviously from that AAJ thread you have a lot to say about the subject
of Giant Steps, jazz and, in view of your family background, jazz
guitar. I like your piano playing very much and got your CD from
emusic.
Joe
ken
> Really? Rite of passage was my term. If you play out in a jazz
> setting, it IS going to get called.
>
> Since it does break from tradition some with the major 3rd thing, what
> are you going to play over it if you don't spend time with it?
Oops, I may have used that term wrong. I meant Bird is to bebop as
Trane is to post-Trane jazz.
So it is important. People say you can't play bebop without dealing
with Bird and my point is that you can't deal with the modern
vocabulary without dealing with Trane. It's everywhere, and I'm not
talking about those Trane wannabe idiots that keep calling giant steps
at 350 bpm at jam sessions.
I'm talking about the vocabulary that comes out of that, and it's in
many of the top players today from Lovano, Potter etc... (and Brecker,
Liebman etc... are more direct offshoots of Trane so you don't have to
mention them).
When I said you don't have to deal with it, that's exactly what I
meant. That's your choice. I'm sure there are plenty of top players
who never dealt with it and don't want to deal with it (like people
who come through the 'Tristano school' etc...) and that's fine too.
Not everybody has to play in the 'modern' way.
Ken
335p...@gmail.com
>
> > This is not a rite of passage any more than Bird is for bebop sax
> > players.
>
> > It's just part of the modern day jazz vocabulary. Nobody *has* to
> > deal with it, of course. But it is actually kind of a big part of the
> > modern jazz vocabulary of today for better or for worse...
>
> Really? Rite of passage was my term. If you play out in a jazz
> setting, it IS going to get called.
Maybe, but I don't hear it getting called much at all.
Derek
>Oops, I may have used that term wrong. I meant Bird is to bebop as
>Trane is to post-Trane jazz.
>So it is important. People say you can't play bebop without dealing
>with Bird and my point is that you can't deal with the modern
>vocabulary without dealing with Trane. It's everywhere, and I'm not
>talking about those Trane wannabe idiots that keep calling giant steps
>at 350 bpm at jam sessions.
>I'm talking about the vocabulary that comes out of that, and it's in
>many of the top players today from Lovano, Potter etc... (and Brecker,
>Liebman etc... are more direct offshoots of Trane so you don't have to
>mention them).
>When I said you don't have to deal with it, that's exactly what I
>meant. That's your choice. I'm sure there are plenty of top players
>who never dealt with it and don't want to deal with it (like people
>who come through the 'Tristano school' etc...) and that's fine too.
>Not everybody has to play in the 'modern' way.
Okie dokie, gotcha.
Derek
>Maybe, but I don't hear it getting called much at all.
Yeah, okay. If it gets called once, I still have to know how to deal
with it.
d...@danadler.com
> Another thought:
>
> If you think of the changes as 2 beats + 2 beats, it leads to very
> mechanical playing. The Coltrane solo is great, but it definitely IS
> mechanical.
>
> A long time ago, Barry Harris pulled my coat to this: Instead of thinking
> "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &", try thinking of the rhthms as "2 & 3 & 4 & 1" with 3
> beats on the Dominant and only 1 beat on the Tonic. This approach gives you
> much more time to develop melodic phrases and in my opinion it swings a
> whole lot better.
>
> This is along the same lines as what Hal Galper (who I also studied with)
> talks about in his "Forward Motion" book.
>
> Musically Yours,
> Rick Stone
> website:http://www.rickstone.com
> Visit me on MySpace at:http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
> Check out my Electronic Press-Kit online at:http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
>
> news:knaDl.2485$6n....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
>
> > Think of the tune as starting on the last chord (as a pickup), then just
> > play a series of Dominant to Tonic Resolutions. EVERYTHING is a pickup!
>
> > F#7 B
> > D7 G
> > Bb7 Eb
>
> > etc.
>
> > You basically ARE just playing tonal centers. It's just important to
> > realize that tonal centers don't "start" on the I, the start on the V7.
> > If you practice this way for a while, you'll see it's actually a pretty
> > easy tune (compared to many).
>
> > Musically Yours,
> > Rick Stone
> > website:http://www.rickstone.com
> > Visit me on MySpace at:http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
> > Check out my Electronic Press-Kit online at:
> >http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
> > Watch my videos on YouTube at:http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
>
> > "hw" <nob...@home.com> wrote in message
> >news:grj7bp$qsb$01$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
> >>news:7339311c-6145-4bb7...@v12g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> >>> Any hints on improving over Giant Steps. Tonal center? Over the
> >>> individual chord changes? I'm a hacker... be gentle...
>
> >>> thanks
>
> >> try Am7 for D7 and Fm7 for Bb7, and play over |Bj7 Am7|Gj7 Fm7|Ebj |
>
> >> Or substitute the V with the IV and play off these chord pairs |Bj7
> >> Cj7|Gj7 Abj7| Ebj | or the related minor chords |G#m7 Am7| Em7 Fm7| Cm7|
>
> >> it's a very nice tune to practice slow.
>
> >> hth
This is assuming people are already aware of where they are within the
bar...
Generally, I find, people who have not spent the time on Giant Steps
and other progressions that force you into thinking at the micro
level, rather than just macro (when does the tonal center change),
have no idea or control over where their phrases start and end within
the bar line. Giant Steps is one of the ways to help gain this
awareness.
Rick Stone
news:grlba9$ktk$1...@news.datemas.de...
> I was playing at the faculty jam of my college a few weeks ago.
> Darcy Hepner (tenor player and full-time faculty member) called Giant
> Steps *in 5* for some reason. I think he'd been drinking.
> We all, a real good drummer and bass player, tried to play it by following
> him.
> When the train wreck was all over I realized that we'd all played all the
> way through in 7! Badly. But we didn't get lost. It was fast too.
>
> I think our students in the audience had a good lesson that day, in what
> not to do.
>
> Still can't figure out how anybody would play this in 5.
Because it's fun?\
I've been playing it in 5/4 with my group for a couple years now and it
actually sits really well. I actually started doing it in 5 because I
wanted to work on my 5/4 playing and needed a tune that I was well familiar
with (and contrary to popular opinion, once you understand how the tune
works, it IS pretty easy to play over). It sits really nice in 5/4.
7 eh? I'll have to try that.
--
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: http://www.rickstone.com
Visit me on MySpace at: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
Check out my Electronic Press-Kit online at:
http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Check out my recordings at http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Joey Goldstein
> "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
>> Still can't figure out how anybody would play this in 5.
>
> Because it's fun?\
I didn't say "why". I said "how".
But I think I just figured it out. Do you break it up like this?:
1 2 & 3 4 5 |1 2 & 3 4 5 |
B D7 G Bb7 |Eb Am7 D7| etc.
> I've been playing it in 5/4 with my group for a couple years now and it
> actually sits really well. I actually started doing it in 5 because I
> wanted to work on my 5/4 playing and needed a tune that I was well familiar
> with (and contrary to popular opinion, once you understand how the tune
> works, it IS pretty easy to play over). It sits really nice in 5/4.
>
> 7 eh? I'll have to try that.
Yeah. It's:
1 2 3 4 5 6 & 7 |1 2 3 4 5 6 & 7|
B D7 G Bb7 |Eb Am7 D7 | etc.
Come to think of it...Maybe we did play it in 5 that day?
I always find that tunes written in 4 work well in 7, and tunes written
in 3 work well in 5.
d...@danadler.com
I would think
B 2 3 D 5 | G 2 3 Bb 5 | ...
i.e. just add a quarter to the first chord in each measure.
tonyde...@gmail.com
> Any hints on improving over Giant Steps. Tonal center? Over the
> individual chord changes? I'm a hacker... be gentle...
>
> thanks
Begin to think in major third movement. Not only in Giant Steps. Use
the mother key of C first, as it is usually easier to relate to at
first as a study in this type of progression. This has been discussed
here many times already. Trane got bored with the standard ii V I
progression, so he superimposed other V to I cadences via the cycle of
3; all related to the original key. *Realize this* first before you
decide to dive in. Learn to *trace the intervals* that make up the
spelling of an augmented chord first off. Invert them. For example, C,
Ab and E form a cycle of major thirds in retrograde. This permits you
to begin thinking in *three* keys. Each interval in the augmented
triad represents a key unto itself, yet related to the the three keys
as a single unit.
One device to utilize is to look at each V7 chord as it's related ii
chord ( I believe Martino utilizes this) concerning improvising. This
gives you all the natural extensions of that V7 chord. You can do this
with each V7 chord in Giant Steps. That is to replace them with their
respective ii-7 chords. Joe pass, for example, would do the opposite
(ignore the ii-7 in most cases), but in this major third jaunt, I
think the converting to minor works best. This gives you a new way of
thinking, is all. And this is important as a first step. A "midget
step", if you will. That speaks for itself, does it not? You then get
a series of chords descending in whole steps alternating between major
and minor. Thus, you are learning to function with the Cycle of 3 as
opposed to only in the Cycle of 5. For example utilizing C aug as
criteria: C triad to Bb-7 to Abmaj7 to F#-7 to Emaj7 to D-7 to Cmaj7
subbing for Trane's maj 3rd movement: D-7 Eb7 Abmaj7 B7 Emaj7 G7
Cmaj7.
The problem surfaces in thinking fast. I have devised a study of
utilizing "fraggies", which is what I affectionately use for mini-
fragments of the related scales. Some guys call them "digital
patterns", but that sounds too mechanical to my mind. But, practice
this new way, very slowly and apply it to Giant Steps and Countdown
and the like. You won't be accomplishing much by practicing it all
"fast." Slow *is* fast.
-TD
zepa....@gmail.com
> Try it as a bossa nova too, not just swing.
This is a cool example of GS as a bossa:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB1cT9dX9WA
ZP
On 8 abr, 20:00, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> deforr...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> > Any hints on improving over Giant Steps. Tonal center? Over the
> > individual chord changes? I'm a hacker... be gentle...
>
> > thanks
>
> Play the tune slow.
> All you need is facility with 3 major scales to be able to play through
> this tune.
> B major, G major and Eb major.
>
> Find a spot on the fretboard where you're comfortable playing all 3 of
> these scales.
> Eg. B major in Pos VI, G major in Pos VII, and Eb major in Pos VI or VIII.
>
> Then identify where the keys change.
> On any Bmaj7 F#7 or C#m7 chords, you're in B. Use the B major scale.
> On any Gmaj7 D7 or Am7 chords, you're in G. Use the G major scale.
> On any Ebmaj7 Bb7 or Fm7 chords, you're in Eb. Use the Eb major scale.
>
> The tricky part is that the keys often change in the middle of the bar.
> So play slow.
> Don't worry too much about "playing what you hear" when you first start
> doing this. Chances are that you can't "hear" this stuff yet anyway, or
> you wouldn't be asking these questions.
> Just develop the ability to change these scales correctly at the correct
> times, and be an observer of what that sounds like. That's how you'll
> learn to "hear" it.
>
> For a primer on some ideas of what to do with these scales, after you
> know how to play them and to change them at the right time, look at John
> Scofield's video here:
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R284Kov6tU&feature=channel_page>
> I've got some scalar technical exercises here too:
> <http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/TechEx/techex.htm>
>
> Again...speed isn't the issue here. Play at a slow tempo and you *will
> be able to play on this tune*. *Then* work at speeding it up.
> Try it as a bossa nova too, not just swing.
>
> Here's a trick the more advanced players might like for this tune.
> Try the B augmented scale (B D D# F# G A# B) over the *entire* form of
> this tune.
> It sounds silly if that's all you do. But if you mix it up with more
> traditional ways of playing on these changes it's a nice contrast.
> The trick is, of course, to not get lost...because when you're using
> that one-scale approach through the entire form it's easy to forget
> where you are in the form.
rpjazz...@gmail.com
Gs is 16 bars. Ignore the first 7 bars for the moment.
Bar 8 is ii V (Fm7 Bb7) and resolves to the I (Ebmaj7) in bar 8.
Now, forget about the iim chords for the next 6 bars.
The chords then become Eb D7 / G F#7 / B Bb7/ Eb
That is, you hit a I chord, then drop down a half step for the V7,
then hit the I, then drop a half step for the next V7.
Bar 16, is a pickup (as someone else pointed out). Bar 1,2 and 5,6
are different. But bars 3 4 and 7.8 are more of the I to the V7 down a
half step.
Anyway, the point is that it's possible to play through a good deal of
this tune (11 bars out of 16) using the simple device of Imaj to the
V7-half-step-down.
Rick Stone
news:7afa3b91-5718-488c...@e38g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
>
>I would think
>
>B 2 3 D 5 | G 2 3 Bb 5 | ...
>
>i.e. just add a quarter to the first chord in each measure.
Yeah, thats what I tell the rhythm section to play. But what I often play
over it is to ANTICIPATE all the dominants and play them as pickups into the
majors, so it often winds up being something like:
F#7 / / | B / D7 / / | G / Bb7 / / | Eb / D7 / / | / / / / /
G etc.
Hope this makes sense (it does when I play it).
tonyde...@gmail.com
Yea, so....moving right along. Now some one interested can transpose
what I have suggested, down a half step.
-TD
jimmybruno
B 123 d7 12 etc
jimmybruno
IMO, there are no tricks or shortcuts to playing over this tune.
Learn the changes by heart and play it like any other tune. It is
only hard because one doesn't get a chance to play over these type
changes but once it is in your ear it is no different than any other
tune.
rpjazz...@gmail.com
very well.
For 7, think odd number bars in 4. Even numbered bars as two dotted
quarters. It also works pretty well.
Joey Goldstein
Yeah. Thanks. I see that now, thanks to Rick (or was it Dan?).
tonyde...@gmail.com
> <deforr...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb im Newsbeitragnews:7339311c-6145-4bb7...@v12g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Any hints on improving over Giant Steps. Tonal center? Over the
> > individual chord changes? I'm a hacker... be gentle...
>
> > thanks
>
>
> Or substitute the V with the IV and play off these chord pairs |Bj7 Cj7|Gj7
> Abj7| Ebj | or the related minor chords |G#m7 Am7| Em7 Fm7| Cm7|
>
> it's a very nice tune to practice slow.
>
> hth
I missed your post, apparently, so I would like to give you credit for
your advice to the OP. Your first idea offers a very fair alternative
to simply looking at the tune as a series of V7s going into I's. It is
OK to think and hear cadencing that way, but may get tired sounding to
some players when utilized *all* of the time. After all, the tune was
intended as an up tempo matrix, which leans more ( my view) towards
cerebral than emotional. Old school players were simply not used to
blowing via the cycle of three, plain and simple. This obviously
accounts for the great Tommy Flannigan's comparitively weak solo ( I
heard the tune was last minute thrown in front of him).
The downstep method of improvising in descending whole-steps while
alternating between major and minor qualities opens up the tune
harmonically as well as frees you up from the shackles of very abrupt
cadencing withing three tonal centers. The tune must be memorized
( down-stepping not only gives you all the natural extensions of each
dominant chord, it also aids in the memorization of the matrix) to
really get into the progression (matrix), as opposed to the student
thing of only reading out of a fake-book. I presented a look-see at
this device in C for analytical convenience, but lets spell it all out
for GS. The tune as written poses: Bma7 D7/ Gmaj7 Bb7/ Ebma7 / A-7
D7 / Gmaj7 Bb7 / Ebmaj7 F#7 / Bmaj7 / F-7 Bb7 / Ebmaj7 / A-7 D7 /
Gmaj7 / C#-7 F#7 / Bmaj7 / F-7 Bb7 / C#-7 F#7 /
At least at an untempo, looking at the entire smear as *only* being
riddled with pick-ups is very limiting, in my view. The tonicizations,
especially brought on by two chords to the bar, are *so* brief that
the idea of a pick-up may often be too restricting. If you wish to toy
with the tune and make it a 'ballad' or a 'bossa' or a polka or a Don
Ellis style arrangement, than perhaps the pick-up thing can do better.
And yet, I am not saying to not utilize the pick-up bar thing; just
not ALL the time is my humble suggestion here. By *thinking* relative
minor for each dom chord, you automatically free yourself up, as well
as open yourself up for not having to be locked in diatonically to one
of the three tonal centers for such a brief period.
So with the above matrix, you may (if you desire, and I do suggest
that you at least try it) *think and hear* as whole stepping: Bma7
down to A-7 to Gmaj7 to F-7 to Ebma7 ( in your boxing corner and time
to breathe) on to A-7 ( here you have a choice of authentic cadencing
or not, and by the way ii chords resolve into I chords as cadential as
well) to Gma7 to F-7 to Ebma7 to Db-7(C#-7) to Bma7 on and on thru the
tune. You can ( if you fancy) also convert each tonic major into it's
relative minor and present Ab-7 to A-7 and E-7 to F-7 as thinking half
stepping at times within the whole-stepping. You can also forget this
entire approach and do your own preferred way.
This was for the OP via HW's post, which I commend and recommend.
-TD
d...@danadler.com
All great advice. That minorization makes it a bit more like the tune
"What's New"...
I think another real confusing (and innovative) part when you first
encounter GS is the harmonic rhythm and the fact that the tonality
changes do not align with the bar lines as Rick pointed out.
And, in fact, I am hard pressed to come up with ANY tune that came
before this where this phenomenon of complete tonality shifts within a
bar occurs. Can anyone think of a tune where something like this
occurs pre-Coltrane? The only one that I could think of was
"Milestones" (old) with that 1/2 step movement up and down, and maybe
that "Lady Bird" turnaround.
Joey Goldstein
I don't have the chart handy, but I believe that there are parts of 26-2
where the bass line is a descending whole tone scale.
Just to be explicit (this is basically what Tony and hw have already
posted), overlayed on Giants Steps this would be:
B Am7 |G Fm7 |Eb |Am7 D7 |
G Fm7 |Eb C#m7 |B |Fm7 Bb7 |here it breaks down
One thing I often find myself comping on parts of this tune is the
following transpositions of the "So What chord" moving up in whole tones:
Fm7 Bb7
X 8 8 8 9 8
Eb
X 10 10 10 11 10
Am7 D7
X 12 12 12 13 12
G
X 14 14 14 15 14
etc.
You could also start it down the octave at the 1st fret for Fm7:
1 1 1 1 1 X
and move it up in whole tones.
Since any min7 chord can take a min pent scale built on its root you
might blow through this with:
Fm pent Gm pent
Fm7 Bb7 |Eb |
Am pent B min pent
Am7 D7 |G |
C#m pent D#m pent
C#m7 F#7 |B |
etc.
Of course that works for any IIm7-V7-I progression in any tune as well.
Here's another take that mixes up some of the above ideas to get a
progression where the bass line moves mostly by step or by 1/2 step (not
really a simplification...but a sort of cool way of looking at it):
Ion Lyd Phry Mix Aeol Lyd
Bmaj7 Cmaj7 |Bm7 Bb7 |Cm7 |Cmaj7 |
Phry Mix Aeol Dor Phry Dor
Bm7 Bb7 |Cm7 C#m7 |D#m7 |Fm7 |
Phry Dor Phry Dor
Gm7 |Am7 |Bm7 |C#m7 |
Phry Dor Phry Mix
D#m7| Fm7 |Gm7 |F#7sus4 |
You could also just think of maj pent scales on all the maj chords and
min pent scales on all the minor chords.
rpjazz...@gmail.com
in 5 except yesterday fooling around by myself.
While the tune can lay pretty well in the Mission Impossible groove,
this involves a decision about how to alter the melody and where in
the bar to change the chords. While going "Mission Impossible" seems
obvious in retrospect, in a jam situation, there's no guarantee that
everybody is going to make the same adjustments. Or, I suppose, stick
with one approach throughout the tune.
Of course, "Mission Impossible" is just one way to phrase 5/4.
Here are some others:
The A section of Take 5 (not very different from MI)
The bridge of Take 5.
and, from the Brazilian side of things -- but tunes which are probably
available on line for sampling ...
Exits and Flags (Milton Nascimento, I think)
Tempestade (Chico Pinheiro -- A section is MI, but B is floaty and
different)
Cinco (Edu Ribeiro (with Chico Pinheiro on guitar) -- the most
comfortable I've ever heard a group in 5 -- and the phrasing is very
different from the others).
Estrella Do Mar (the tune that you hear when you go to Jovino Santos
Neto's website). This one has 4 different sets of phrasings. The
second one (right after the opening lick and before the melody) is a
two bar phrase hitting, 1& 2 3&/ 1& 2 3& 4&/. On the A section melody
it's 2& over a bass lick.
My experience is that being able to play some of these is no guarantee
you're going to be able to play the others.
d...@danadler.com
Here's a beautiful pop song in 5/4 in Hebrew by Israeli singer Yehudit
Ravitz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz47PjOqy50
Enjoy,
-Dan
http://danadler.com
Keith Freeman
>
> G Fm7 |Eb C#m7 |B |Fm7 Bb7 |here it breaks down
I would suggest replacing the solitary m7s with m6s:
B Am6 |G Fm6 |Eb |Am7 D7 |
G Fm6 |Eb C#m6 |B |Fm7 Bb7 |here it breaks down
for one thing because I need to practise m6s, and for another because I
reckon the harmony really needs those dominants ;-}
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
rpjazz...@gmail.com
B Am7/Gmj7 Fm7/Eb/D7-- first three bars in whole steps alternating maj
min. Bar 3 is a Imaj, followed by a V7 a half step down in bar 4
This V7 goes to it's Imaj and then we have more whole steps
G Fm7/Eb C#m/B/(then V7 a half step down, again) Bb7
Then it's a series of Imaj to V7 a half step down.
Then, in Bar 16 in a whole step down to C#m7 and continues in whole
steps at bar I.
Makes it a little easier to memorize ... whole steps, then half step
down. whole steps, half step down. then V7 I, then drop a half step
and do it again. last bar back to whole step.
Joey Goldstein
>> B Am7 |G Fm7 |Eb |Am7 D7 |
>>
>> G Fm7 |Eb C#m7 |B |Fm7 Bb7 |here it breaks down
>
> I would suggest replacing the solitary m7s with m6s:
>
> B Am6 |G Fm6 |Eb |Am7 D7 |
>
> G Fm6 |Eb C#m6 |B |Fm7 Bb7 |here it breaks down
>
> for one thing because I need to practise m6s, and for another because I
> reckon the harmony really needs those dominants ;-}
Well, sometimes it can use them but I don't think it really "needs" them.
Sometimes it's hipper to play off of dom7 chords as if they're dom7sus4
chords too.
Have you tried playing off the tune with the min7 version as well as
comping thru it?
Keith Freeman
> comping thru it?
want to have a go with m6s.
Kevin Collins
BMaj7-Amin7-GMaj7#11-Fmin7-EbMaj7#11 voice-leads like a dream, IMO.
Joey Goldstein
Why the #11's, and if #11 then why not Bmaj7#11 too?
I find this tune exceptionally tricky to use altered tensions on.
Normally, when presented with a vanilla IIm7-V7-I or V7-I progression,
I'll alter the hell out of everything.
IIm7 might become IIm7b5 or II9 or II7alt.
V9 becomes V7alt.
I becomes Imaj7b5 or Imaj7#5 or I7.
But on this tune, with the 3 keys involved and with the written harmonic
rhythm, none of that stuff usually sounds "right" to me.
I can get a V7#5 or V7#9 in there every once in a while, but it's harder
to make melodic sense of this progression with altered dominants for me
than it normally would be for most other tunes with V7-I progressions.
Probably has to do with the limited time alloted to clearly establish
each new key.
I'm sort of fond of Imaj7#5 though, on the 2nd half of the tune.
Kevin Collins
> Kevin Collins wrote:
> > On Apr 11, 5:38 pm, Keith Freeman <x...@x.net> wrote:
> >>> Have you tried playing off the tune with the min7 version as well as
> >>> comping thru it?
> >> Yes, I found it difficult to make lines with the m7 chords, which is why I
> >> want to have a go with m6s.
>
> >> -Keith
>
> >> Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.:www.keithfreemantrio.nl
> >> e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
>
> > BMaj7-Amin7-GMaj7#11-Fmin7-EbMaj7#11 voice-leads like a dream, IMO.
>
> Why the #11's, and if #11 then why not Bmaj7#11 too?
It was just something I came up with on the fly, and it voice-lead
really well. No restrictions apply otherwise. I did hear Branford's
group do a version on BET where, on the second time through the head
they screw with all the full-measure tonic chords, making them (I
think) D/Eb, A#/B, etc., and altering the target melody-note
accordingly (sounds like they only did this on the head, though, then
it was anything-goes), so that might've influenced me.
> I find this tune exceptionally tricky to use altered tensions on.
>
> Normally, when presented with a vanilla IIm7-V7-I or V7-I progression,
> I'll alter the hell out of everything.
> IIm7 might become IIm7b5 or II9 or II7alt.
> V9 becomes V7alt.
> I becomes Imaj7b5 or Imaj7#5 or I7.
>
> But on this tune, with the 3 keys involved and with the written harmonic
> rhythm, none of that stuff usually sounds "right" to me.
> I can get a V7#5 or V7#9 in there every once in a while, but it's harder
> to make melodic sense of this progression with altered dominants for me
> than it normally would be for most other tunes with V7-I progressions.
> Probably has to do with the limited time alloted to clearly establish
> each new key.
> I'm sort of fond of Imaj7#5 though, on the 2nd half of the tune.
>
The occasional Dsus7-B/C-G/B in place of Amin7-D7-GMaj7 is one I fall
back on a little too much, but it works well in this tune. Or, in this
same progression, the old E-A-D (Amin7), F-Bb-Eb (D7alt), F#-B-E
(GMaj6) sequence works really well. A lot of really sparse three-note
voicings tend to be the rule of the day, especially at the tempi at
which this is usually played, which can help the extensions work a
little better, at least for me.
tonyde...@gmail.com
Dorian already has the large 7 (from Gmaj) in it's mode, if the m-7's
are *looked upon* as Dorian origin for the dom7ths. I do not say comp
the min7 chords or voice them as m-7ths in your mind (you *can*, but
the comper has to be hip to that too or *hear* you going there), but
merely to *think* them as an *aid* ( don't have to all of the time,
especially when the harmonic rhythm has simplified some as in bars 8
and 9 and 10 and 11; utilizing simple sets of ii v I's) in the
blowing. An Eb or F on the D7 voicing and B natch or Db on the Bb7
voicing would "cadentiallize" stronger than the m-6th forms ( despite
the third of the dom 7th chord, which is the 6th or the m-6th chord
imo), anyhow.
Many have problems simply dealing with Bma7. The trick is to transcend
that problem, if that indeed is a problem. One composite way is to
reduce the change to it's mediant and submediant in your mind. In your
mind's eye, try blowing as if Eb-7 was heading into D7 or A-7 and also
try as if Ab-7 was heading into A-7 In other words, a move one half-
step away can open many previously closed doors for some one. If you
dig Lydian against maj7th at times, I see nothing wrong with it as
long as music remains music. Leave no stone unturned and delete
nothing as a shuck. Just play your horn and be about your business.
-TD
-TD
Keith Freeman
I should have made it clear that I was thinking of creating a solo line
rather than comping. That was where I found the m7s didn't cadentialize
(handy word!) strongly enough, hence my suggestion to try m6s.
Rick Stone
>> I didn't say "why". I said "how".
Ah, I see that now.
tonyde...@gmail.com
> individual chord changes? I'm a hacker... be gentle...
>
> thanks
Gee, are we going to simply stop here?
How is GS going for you? Are you able to run through the changes each
morning right after waking up and having your coffee? Do this without
expecting an outward reward. Do it for an inward reward. You will
automatically experience much freedom this way.
Are you able to navigate through the changes utilizing standard
("chord form position style") fingerings as well as hybrid fingerings
( mini-fragmenting, for one way) in order to handle the threefold
tonal center shifting? Are you able now to draw from related chords,
such as the ii of each V7 or the b5 sub of each V, as a few examples?
The mediant and submediant for each major as a few more examples?
You may discover that utilizing associated chords brings you
"naturally" into the Lydian field on major. The tone remnants linger
and seem to "oxidize" into Lydian. You can welcome that or avoid it.
Both welcoming and avoiding is a lesson turned into a craft. The mini-
fragmenting or as I put it, "fraggies" works well on up tempo-ing.
Trane used fragments containing C, F, Ab and G against the Bb7 change,
for example. Master Bmaj7 going into A-7 as the wheel spins, as well
as Ebmaj7 going into C#-7 ( or think enharmonic equivalent, Db-7 as
"down-stepping") as getting back to Bmaj7 (Cbmaj7) and it turns into a
lot of fun. GS does not have to be the progression version of the
Boogie man.
-TD
d...@danadler.com
> <d...@danadler.com> wrote in message
>
> news:7afa3b91-5718-488c...@e38g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >I would think
>
> >B 2 3 D 5 | G 2 3 Bb 5 | ...
>
> >i.e. just add a quarter to the first chord in each measure.
>
> Yeah, thats what I tell the rhythm section to play. But what I often play
> over it is to ANTICIPATE all the dominants and play them as pickups into the
> majors, so it often winds up being something like:
>
> F#7 / / | B / D7 / / | G / Bb7 / / | Eb / D7 / / | / / / / /
>
> G etc.
>
> Hope this makes sense (it does when I play it).
>
> Musically Yours,
> Rick Stone
> website:http://www.rickstone.com
> Visit me on MySpace at:http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
> Check out my Electronic Press-Kit online at:http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
> Watch my videos on YouTube at:http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
Well, here's Bergonzi doing it in 5:
http://www.emusic.com/album/Jerry-Bergonzi-Just-WIthin-MP3-Download/11019840.html
and he sticks in 5th house too as the 2nd A... and of course Gilad
Hekselman does "Countown" in 7 here:
http://www.emusic.com/album/Gilad-Hekselman-Words-Unspoken-MP3-Download/11208397.html
So, I guess there is no stone left unturned...