Bbm+7/C or C13w/11b9

[van]

I play with a sax player who is really into re-harmonizing jazz tunes using this chord change as a pedal point to replace the original harmony.
He tells me to voice it C-Db-F-A and let the bass play the C pedal, but that's impossible to play on the guitar unless you use an inversion, Db-F-A-C, and you can even play the C in the bass.
Blowing off it is another thing, since I have just the bass behind me.
I could:
a) treat it as just a C altered dominant and play altered dominant scale patterns off of it (that's what the trumpet player and sax player do). or
b) play off of a Bbm+7 chord and use a Bb melodic minor scale.
Like everything this sax player does, it's taken at 300bpm or faster, and the
Bbm+7/C chord always lasts for eight bars.
What do you do in this situation?

[jimmybruno]

Hard to say without the context of the harmony

[John A.]

300 BPM with 8 bars of pedal points? Ixnay. I'd notice an old friend at the bar I need to catch up with until somebody calls a 120 BPM blues.

John

[TD]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:06:15 PM UTC-4, van wrote:

Well, I guess we aren't going to quibble over scale lengths (maybe just scales), so I guess I can recall a line from the movie, Marathon Man and ask "Is it safe?"

Bruno is correct. I absolutely depends on context. So, without hearing and being having the allowance of being in the moment, I see myself having four ways to treat the change. Whenever you have a pedal, you have a pedal pusher sort of speak, because it lays plenty of room for tonality shifting. Plus, you've got 8 bars to figure it all out on your own before you play with the guys.

Although there is no G, which is the P5 of C7 type chords, you can look at the change as C13susb9 and use your Bb mel min scale if you are into scale references. You can still look at it as a type of Bbmin-maj7 with C as bass note and call it a "4th inversion" chord, and we do that at times. Or: Bbmin-maj9/C.

But you also have Db in the mix and again there is no P5 (G), so Db major type change with C pedal (it's large 7th) is a strong candidate for looking at it as.

For example: Db+maj13/C , Dbmaj7#5(add 13)/C , Dbmaj13#5/C

Just off the cuff (or off the chord) I see Db and it's relative minor as strongest criteria over C. There is no P5 to call it C7 and the F and db render it closer to Bb mel min scale realm than F major.

But, you've got 8 bars and plenty of time to hear the thing as you please.

[Joey Goldstein]

Voicings:
� Any voicing of Bbm(maj7), including all the drop 2, drop 3, etc.
inversions will do if the bass player is playing the C as a pedal tone.
But it will be safest to stay out of the low range of the guitar.
E.g. Things could get sub-optimal if you play any notes that are lower
than the bass player's C.
� If you want to include the C in your voicings (for whatever reason),
and you still want to play 4-note voicings, then the note to omit will
the Bb, like your leader suggests.
But you can voice it as Dbmaj7#5, with all the usual drop-style voicing
types.
� You could also use a series of voicings derived from the chord-scales
suggested below.
These could be the diatonic 7th chords (in the various possible
inversions and drop voicings) or diatonic triads or diatonic quartal or
quintal voicings.
With the bass player pedaling on C the effect will be that you're
playing across the entire mode, not just the chord suggested by the
chord symbol.

Chord-scales:
� The usual suspects are C dor b2 (aka Bb mel min)
C Db Eb F G A Bb |C
and
C mixb2 (aka F harmonic major)
C Db E F G A Bb |C
� You might also get some mileage out of a composite scale with 8 tones
that combines both of the above.
I.e. a scale with both
Eb and E nat.
� Another option that will tend to fit right in, for the most part, is
the C half-whole diminished scale.
It doesn't contain the F that's in the chord and it does contain an F#
that will clash with any F's in any chord voicings that are sounding.
But all the other notes in this scale will fit vertically on any voicing
of C13b9sus4 that anybody is likely to play.
And any lines you play that contain the F#s will likely be justified by
the symmetry of the other notes of the scale that you play prior to or
after your F#s.

You'll probably find though that your other players will not be real
meticulous about adhering to these scales.
It's more than likely that they'll slip in the odd Ab instead of A here
and there for more of a straight-up phrygian kind of texture.
You'll have the choice, as accompanist, to go with them in your voicings
or to stick-it-to-them by jamming your A naturals in their faces.
Of course if you're the only guy on the bandstand who is "right" you're
gonna sound like the guy who is "wrong".
It's usually better to make it sound good than bad no matter what the
chord chart says.

The title tune of my new CD, Thanks Charlie, is based off of a vamp on
G13b9(sus4).
On my solo, my first chorus is all based off of G dor b2 (F mel min) and
my 2nd chorus through this same section is all based on the G half-whole
dim scale.
But you'll have to buy the tune (or the album) to hear the whole solo. :-)
The excerpts on CDBaby and/or iTunes aren't long enough.
And when I'm comping behind J.J.'s soprano solo I'm using voicings
derived from F mel min for the most part on this change.
Of course, when I hear him playing B naturals in his lines, I try to
supply a voicing that supports his choice.
<http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/joeygoldstein2>
<https://itunes.apple.com/ca/artist/the-joey-goldstein-quartet/id641429552?ign-mpt=uo%3D4>

Here's a typical 5-note grip for your chord:
8 X 8 6 6 1 (strings/fret #)
3 4 2 2 1 (fingers)

Here's another:
8 X 11 10 10 8
1 4 3 3 1

Hope that's of some use....

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JoeyGoldstein>

[Joey Goldstein]

The usual suspects here will be C phrygian (aka Ab major) or C mixb2b6
(aka F harm min) or an 8-note composite scale with both E's and Eb's.

[van]

I use the second grip you posted, but a much easier fingering is 1x4231.
Thanks Tony and Joey for the suggestions. I had to play this stuff on sight the only time I played it, and I didn't like the way the Bb melodic minor stuff sounded on the tune he chose ("Get Out of Town" by CP), so I said fuck it, and I used a C melodic minor, because I hear the melody to that tune over a Cm extended harmony. When I blow off a standard, I usually hear the melody/harmony of the tune in my head, and the C13b9sus4 just didn't do it for me.
He used the same chord on a contrafact on "This I Dig of You" by HM, and I'd rather play the original. Try telling that to a former Grossman student...

[Robby R]

1) If the bass is covering the C, why not just play the D+ triad comping? For soloing it might depend on context, preceding & following chords, melody etc., but Bb melodic or harmonic minor come to mind as good candidates.

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:06:15 PM UTC-4, van wrote:

[van]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 7:57:48 PM UTC-4, Robby R wrote:
> 1) If the bass is covering the C, why not just play the D+ triad comping? For soloing it might depend on context, preceding & following chords, melody etc., but Bb melodic or harmonic minor come to mind as good candidates.
>

You mean a Db+ triad.
That's what I did when I sightread it, and it sounded like shit.

[charlieguitar]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:06:15 PM UTC-4, van wrote:

Let's not forget that anything fits over a pedal tone so if you are talking about your solo you can go as far out as you want especially with only a bass underneath you. If you are talking about comping it seems that any minor/major 7th. approach would work bearing in mind that it is common to superimpose whole tone and augmented harmonies over that particular change.As everyone is saying though it depends on the overall harmony of the tune to help you decide what sounds right at that part of the progression. Something that hasn't been mentioned is the style of the tune. It might be strange to use Coltrane in Japan as an influence if it is a swing era type tune. Getting back to the C pedal it sounds like it would give you the freedom to experiment with most of the stuff that has been presented here.

[Robby R]

Call it 150 bpm for 4 bars & have a beer?

[Robby R]

oops yeah, Db+. have you tried making a playalong or using BIAB or irealb to practice on it?
ps it can be played on guitar with a pinky stretch : x x 10 6 6 5 barring the Db & F w/ 2nd finger.

[TD]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:28:18 AM UTC-4, van wrote:

Then it seems that quartal voicings (mixed with tertian voicings) shifting above the ostinato with sauce might work best. And if that works fairly well, I would suggest no scale, because the best sense of melodic and harmonic coalition will come from the tonality shifting via the voicings. This will become more apparent when we realize that any one scale will always call for adjustments, anyhow. In such cases, it's often the vertical shifting that presents the best criteria. And next it's f... criteria. Hearing brings forth Nirvana.

[Bill Godwin]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:06:15 PM UTC-4, van wrote:

Play chord tones and listen to what else I hear

[Joey Goldstein]

On 05-22-13 1:04 PM, Bill Godwin wrote:
>
>> What do you do in this situation?
>
> Play chord tones and listen to what else I hear
>

+1

Can't go wrong with chord tones!

But I'd treat it like a 6-note chord: C13b9sus4.
CTs are: C Db F G A Bb

If you find that the gap between Db and F is a little bit awkward, you
can fill it in with Eb or E or both.

[sbgt...@yahoo.com]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:06:15 PM UTC-4, van wrote:

You've sung my siren song! That's my favorite shiite right there!

Play Bb Jazz Melodic Minor over it --- the name of the mode from C is " C Dorian b2" --- I call that chord Csus 13b9, but mostly I call it divine!
I also refer to it as an "Altered sus chord" - thanks Coltrane!!!
peace out.
SB

[van]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 5:41:07 PM UTC-4, sbgt...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:06:15 PM UTC-4, van wrote:
>
> > I play with a sax player who is really into re-harmonizing jazz tunes using this chord change as a pedal point to replace the original harmony.
>
> >
>
> > He tells me to voice it C-Db-F-A and let the bass play the C pedal, but that's impossible to play on the guitar unless you use an inversion, Db-F-A-C, and you can even play the C in the bass.
>
> >

Someone who plays

>
> > Blowing off it is another thing, since I have just the bass behind me.
>
> >
>
> > I could:
>
> >
>
> > a) treat it as just a C altered dominant and play altered dominant scale patterns off of it (that's what the trumpet player and sax player do). or
>
> >
>
> > b) play off of a Bbm+7 chord and use a Bb melodic minor scale.
>
> >
>
> > Like everything this sax player does, it's taken at 300bpm or faster, and the
>
> >
>
> > Bbm+7/C chord always lasts for eight bars.
>
> >
>
> > What do you do in this situation?
>
>
>
> You've sung my siren song! That's my favorite shiite right there!
>
>
>
> Play Bb Jazz Melodic Minor over it --- the name of the mode from C is " C Dorian b2" --- I call that chord Csus 13b9, but mostly I call it divine!
>
> I also refer to it as an "Altered sus chord" - thanks Coltrane!!!
>
> peace out.
>
> SB

I think the key is what SB said about from "C to C (dorian b2)."Ages ago, I once told a pianist, who was much better than I was, that I used some scale that didn't start on the root of the chord I was playing off.
He got all pissed off and said you should always think of it as starting from the root (C Dorian b2, rather than Bb Melodic Minor, even though they're the same notes).

[TD]

Bb melodic minor is merely the **source scale.** Starting on any note in the scale and calling each note yield there of a mode is common, of course. For example, starting Bb mm from C is still Bb mm, but **standing on C.** We utilize scales as one source of criteria. We don't have to start on a specific note from any scale. We start on a note that suits the line we wish to play at the moment. C dorian b2 is merely Bb melodic minor "standing on C." You can begin a line on Bb, if it suits the idea of the moment. Should you wish that. Many times starting on a root of the chord to be played against can sound lame and contrived.
In your tune story, you have C pedal tone for 8 bars. I can think of myriad approaches that include close related bi-tonality; not just C dorian b2. In fact, after scale sources are fully studied and absorbed, there should be no thinking about staring notes from specific modes. It's ear time where the intellectual and mechanical are merely the help and ear is the boss.

[TD]

I had no intention of killing this thread, as I see no more action. So, I thought I might add that **chordal thinking**, at least in my view, is a whole other ball of wax. Here is where individual modes are very important when concentrating on specific voicing flavorings. Each mode has it's characteristic tone. Overriding a mode when the music (can be limited to a certain number of bars) demands a characteristic tone associated with that mode can derail the harmonic and possibly melodic intentions. Perhaps, your authoritarian pianist was referring only to chord voicings?

[Joey Goldstein]

On 5/22/13 8:42 PM, van wrote:
>
> I think the key is what SB said about from "C to C (dorian b2)."Ages ago, I once told a pianist, who was much better than I was, that I used some scale that didn't start on the root of the chord I was playing off.
> He got all pissed off and said you should always think of it as starting from the root (C Dorian b2, rather than Bb Melodic Minor, even though they're the same notes).
>

IMO
In music, "always" doing something one way is rarely a good thing.
As far as studying chord-scale relationships as involving scales that
start on the root of the chord-of-the-moment vs scales that start on
some other note (e.g. the tonic of some more familiar common scale) I
think you need to be able to do *both*.

E.g. On C13b9sus4 you should be able to think sometimes in terms of "C
dorian b2" and at other times as "Bb melodic minor".
The way you think about this pitch collection *will* affect the way you
play with it, and that's a good thing.
Hell, sometimes when I play on that chord I find it useful to think in
terms of the A altered scale (or Eb lyd b7) instead.
I.e. There are all sorts of angles that this same pitch collection can
be looked at from and it can be productive to explore them all to some
degree.

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>

<http://home.primus.ca/~joegold/AudioClips/audio.htm>

[van]

It was a long time ago, but he definitely was talking about chord scales and improvisation.
At that point, he had studied with Charlie Banacos and Lennie Tristano, so that was his background. Now, he's teaching jazz theory at a major university.
I can see where thinking from C to C is more effective for coming up with better melodic, sequential ideas than starting from Bb, because you're emphasizing chord tones when you do that.
I find it more effective to use the Bb melodic minor and the Eb lydian dom. (as JG suggested) in a more 'Trane, "sheets of sound" , chord scale approach, than to create melodic statements.

[TD]

Yea, no one from my clan thinks of whether a tonic note is a good choice or not ( root to root can be in certain situations, of course), let alone what mode to utilize while in the midst of improvisation. But, I suppose there can be several other clans that do and that's a choice and I think the root to chord and mode is useful as one teaching tool. We just hear and play mostly simultaneously. Melodic playing can certainly be drawn from the mother scale and more so from the chromatic scale.

A melodic type improv can be created from the beginning, middling, and near ending from the tones that are non diatonic to the prevailing chord scale. There is never one way, as you already know. Tristano and Banacos chief similarity was that they both really stressed ear training to the max. This is a concept that transcends any scalar or modal approach, yet needs not replace them. It simply includes them. Yet, Lennie stressed heavy transcribing from bop players, which included singing the lines without the axe, and Charlie emphasized a far wider harmonic field, which including a mastering of all 12 tones against one chord and/or cadence/over all tonal center as presented as diatonic to itself. Sandole had both going on. In the end, there are no restrictions. And in the end, all such words are meaningless. The playing, which is an aural entity, is the answer to all answers and the way of all ways.

[Lord Valve]

Jim -

I just heard that track you did with Joey D on
my local station (KUVO) of "The Way You Are
Tonight." Absotively posilutely SMOKIN', my
man. Totally swingin'. Your playing was spot
on for the tune...and Joey D's left hand can
scare the crap outta most bass players. ;-)

Just handing out an attaboy where one is
due - I enjoyed the hell out of it. What's
the disc called, so I can go buy one.

Lord Valve
Organist

[TD]

I 2nd that.