Are metronomes a good thing
Alex
What do you guys think about the benefits (or detriments) of using a
metronome to practice? I am taking lessons at JBGI, and Jimmy
believes that metronomes are a bad idea and will make you sound
stiff. That sounds counter intuitive to me, but I am definitely not
qualified to argue one way or another -- I am a really terrible
player.
However, I was wondering if that is a common perception (regarding
metronomes, not my terrible playing) among experienced jazz guitarists
(of which there are plenty here). Just wanna see what most people
think...
P.S.
I love JBGI and I've seen improvement in my playing from absolutely
dismal, all in one key, horrible junk to much better (but still
terribly weak and boring) playing in a VERY short amount of time.
This is not sarcasm, it is high praise. I thought I would never
progress one iota - after 7 years of playing -- but JBGI gave me a
real hope, as I saw real results, real quick, and I can see lots of
more results coming in the future if I follow the course and do my
praciticing.
Keith Freeman
> metronome to practice? I am taking lessons at JBGI, and Jimmy
> believes that metronomes are a bad idea and will make you sound
> stiff. That sounds counter intuitive to me, but I am definitely not
> qualified to argue one way or another -- I am a really terrible
> player.
Perhaps Jimmy has had bad experiences with students who are just unmusical,
or haven't used it correctly? With his rock solid time, of course, he
wouldn't need one!
I can only talk about my own experience. When Garrison Fewell told me 'Your
time's all f####d up, Keith' and I asked him what to do, his advice was
'Practise with a metronome', and when I did I certainly felt the benefit.
The idea is to observe where you're speeding up and slowing down without
realizing it, not to copy the rigidity of the metronome beat. If you treat
it as a rhythm section (or to align the RS in your head) you shouldn't go
far wrong. There was a clip of Pat Metheny playing a whole song with a
metronome as his RS posted recently on youtube - nothing stiff about his
playing!
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
Gerry
> What do you guys think about the benefits (or detriments) of using a
> metronome to practice? I am taking lessons at JBGI, and Jimmy
> believes that metronomes are a bad idea and will make you sound
> stiff. That sounds counter intuitive to me, but I am definitely not
> qualified to argue one way or another -- I am a really terrible
> player.
It's kinda tough to second-guess the advice of your teacher, when he's
present in the room.
If your time is really bad, I think working with a metronome is a good
way to help clean it up. If you're the kind of player who tries to play
too fast all the time it can be a good way to make you slow down and be
more consistent. It's a good aid to pick up your speed while retaining
accuracy in execution if you set it at an appropriate mark and increase
it slowly over a period of months.
I can see how it would theoretically make you sound stiff if that's all
you ever played with for years. I can't imagine who would do that.
Certainly it would be better to play with real humans. It would also be
good playing with recordings, but one can't adjust them for their needs.
I can't see why it wouldn't be useful to work with a metronome on a
temporary basis when attempting to address a specific piece and trying
to get the time right and accuracy right on it. On the other hand it
shouldn't be necessary to work forever with a metronome.
--
///---
MWC
> On 2008-02-06 05:56:45 -0800, Alex <apeche...@gmail.com> said:
>
> > What do you guys think about the benefits (or detriments) of using a
> > metronome to practice? I am taking lessons at JBGI, and Jimmy
> > believes that metronomes are a bad idea and will make you sound
> > stiff. That sounds counter intuitive to me, but I am definitely not
> > qualified to argue one way or another -- I am a really terrible
> > player.
I'm another "improving, but terrible player" also participating at the
JBGI and have a similar time problem. I remember hearing Jimmy
suggest (dont know if it was you or someone else) to use a backing
track like Band in a Box instead of a metronome, because you can get
more of a swing feel that way and it's slightly more realistic. I
interpreted these comments to mean that he thinks backing tracks are
better tools than a metronome. If you dont have BIAB, you can use the
midi backing tracks on the site. There are other backing tracks
around on the web, too. I sometimes turn off all the BIAB instruments
except bass and drums in order to practice this way.
Mike
jimmyb
My opinion is that the metronome will do no good. It's something you
have to devlop internally. Play along with CDS. you are rushing or
slowing down becuase either you are struggling with the instrument or
struggling getting your ideas out.
Go back and play the 5 shapes evenly-then you won't need a metronome
Mark Kleinhaut
>
> My opinion is that the metronome will do no good. It's something you
> have to devlop internally. Play along with CDS. you are rushing or
> slowing down becuase either you are struggling with the instrument or
> struggling getting your ideas out.
>
Hey Jimmy, I didn't know you felt that way. I thought I was the only
one around here who thought metronomes were useless.
Another thing you can do, besides playing along with a record, is to
use a little boss looper to lay down a chorus of changes and then try
to solo over yourself. Now THAT will show you truly how weak your
groove is as your're now wearing the shoes of the other poor guy who's
trying to solo over your comping. First time I did that I was
completely blown away by how much work I needed to do (and still do),
but it can also give you a good insight as to where in the tune you
need to focus, I mean- it will plain to hear where it falls apart.
BTW, this could be like that burn the real books thread from a few
years ago:)
jimmyb
I saw that clip too. He has enough experience to pull that off but he
gets away from the metronome in many places - which is a GOOD thing.
Time in all music is not metronomic, it breathes. He probably used it
so he could have something to play off of.
jimmyb
BAIB uses a 'humanizing" algorhythm which makes it sound as close to a
live rhythm section as possible
Derek
when studying classical, per teacher mandate.
However, I have always enjoyed playing along with cds, backing trax,
biab, etc.
I too make use of a looper, and know exactly what Mark is talking
about.
Frankly, I put more effort in being a good comper than soloist, and
enjoy creative comping at this point more than blowing.
It is refreshing to hear some discenting voices about metronome use.
335p...@gmail.com
That looper device sounds interesting but I can't seem to locate it
online. Can you provide a link to it?
Marc Why
better than a regular metronome when practicing your time.
Everyone's forgotten another important component to this learning
process: record, critique, record, critique!
These days I use a handy Zoom H4 for rehearsals, gigs, and my own
practicing, and I'm always amazed what I can learn just by listening
to a few tunes (amazed more by the mistakes, of course!). I have a
big tendency to rush, rush, rush, so I have to remember to breathe,
breathe, breathe . ..
One of my first jazz teachers years ago (Matt Dunne in San Antonio)
was shocked that I didn't have a 4-track to record/practice with. His
take, essentially, was "how do you expect to get better when you're
not listening to yourself?!"
Ciao,
Marc
www.marcwhygroup.com
www.myspace.com/marcwhygroup
theappoint...@gmail.com
http://www.phillipsmusic.net/realbook.htm
Click on "The Real Book" box in the center of the page.
Keith Freeman
> track like Band in a Box instead of a metronome, because you can get
> more of a swing feel that way and it's slightly more realistic. I
> interpreted these comments to mean that he thinks backing tracks are
> better tools than a metronome.
Jimmy - when you take away BiaB or the CD you're back where you started.
When you're playing with a full RS your mind is liable to interpret
involuntary hesitation or rushing as rubato. With a metronome it's much
easier to spot where your time is weak.
As for BiaB being realistic, I disagree. It's useful for learning chord
changes, but it doesn't really swing. Set a metronome to play the 2 and 4
and then you can learn how to swing!
Keith Freeman
> have to devlop internally.
> Play along with CDS. you are rushing or
> slowing down becuase either you are struggling with the instrument or
> struggling getting your ideas out.
Good point. I would just say that my experience is that playing along with
CDs masked my off time, whereas using a metronome I found it easier to hear
where I was getting off.
Joey Goldstein
Well, I'm going to disagree with Jimmy and Mark.
I think that practicing with a metronome is a great thing to do, but it
depends on how you use it and on what you're trying to accomplish.
IMO The most effective way to use a metronome is to have it clicking in
large time chunks (like once per measure), rather than small time chunks
(like every beat). This forces you to fill in the gaps with your own
time feel, using the metronome only to check if you're rushing or dragging.
Putting the MN on 2 and 4 is one of the classic ways to do this. You're
forced to feel your own 1 and 3. And it mimics what a drummer does with
his pedal hi-hat.
Another way to do what I'm suggesting is to have it click just once per
measure. This is a great way to practice polyrhythms and metrical
modulation. Eg. On a 3/4 tune, switching backing back and forth between
3 and 4-over-3 is much easier to hear than if it was clicking on every beat.
Other tricks you can do are to have the click on some other division of
the bar.
Try playing with the click on the 3rd triplet of every beat, or the 2nd
triplet.
Try it in 3/4 with the click just on 2 or just on 3.
Try it in 4/4 with the click just on 4.
Etc.
Now these are things that you would do if you already had a pretty good
sense of time and just wanted to expand on it.
But when you're just starting out, it's a real good idea to play with it
clicking on every beat. Whether you believe in the ultimate usefulness
of MNs or not, if *you* can't play with one *you don't have good time*.
The 2 best things I ever did for my time were:
1. Playing through the Louis Bellson books (Reading Text In 4/4 and
Reading Text In Odd Times) and Leavitt's Melodic Rhythms *with a
metronome* trying to give each written note it's exact metrical values
(for both attack and duration). Yes, these books are designed to help
your reading. But you can't read these things correctly without a strong
time feel. The two go hand in hand. By reading these types of exercises
you get on intimate terms with each metrical division of the bar; the
and-of-3, the 2nd triplet of beat 2, etc., etc., etc.
2. Entering certain rhythms I was working on into a sequencer and
playing along with it as closely as possible.
Doing this with certain standard notated jazz figures (like 3 1/16
triplets followed by a swing upbeat 1/8) was a real eye opener as far as
jazz phrasing is concerned, because jazz players don't play the 1/16
triplets "legit". The first of the triplets is longer so that the swing
upbeat 1/8 comes out in the right place. I learned a lot by analyzing
how stuff like that lays out clock tick by clock tick.
And of course there is simply no substitute for experience. Play a lot
with a lot of people, especially people who are better than you.
Playing along with records is cool, to a point.
I don't like playing along with backing tracks because they do too much
of the work for you. I'm a firm believer that you should be able to play
through a tune with *no backing*, not even a metronome. By using backing
tracks too often you develop the habit of leaning on someone else to
state the time and the harmony. These are things you need to be able to
state yourself, just from your single-note lines.
Listening to records as if you're in the band, i.e. counting through the
form, is real important to me. I can't really listen to music anymore
without imagining that I'm playing it. What's the time sig? How long are
the phrases? Where's 1? Etc. I can't tell you how many times I've
listened to jazz solos like Meth's ATTYA in the car, counting away like mad.
Why it must necessarily follow that practicing with a metronome makes
you a stiff player, is beyond me. I think that quite the opposite is
true. I don't think that you can really stretch the time successfully
unless you know where it is in the first place. And if you do stretch
the time without knowing where it is, you're bullshit-ing. IMO.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Gerry
> Hey Jimmy, I didn't know you felt that way. I thought I was the only
> one around here who thought metronomes were useless.
>
> Another thing you can do, besides playing along with a record, is to
> use a little boss looper to lay down a chorus of changes and then try
> to solo over yourself.
Can you say what the substantive difference is between listening to
time from a metronome and ensuring that you line up, versus listening
to a loop, a CD and ensuring that you line up?
--
///---
tonyde...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Correctamundo. Imagine having sex to a metronome? Hmmm...that *does*
sound a little kinky when I think of it.
-TD
paul
> BAIB uses a 'humanizing" algorhythm which makes it sound as close to a
> live rhythm section as possible
it doesn't do a very good job of this :). I have said this many times,
but I just can't deal with practicing with biab. the groove/feel/
whatever makes me feel like I'm playing with a wedding band or
something, give me a metronome over biab any day of the week and 6
days on sunday.
woland99
tonyde...@gmail.com
I believe that a metronome is good for working on certain items, like
scales and arpeggios and repairing a weak picking hand (getting it in
sync with the left hand). As far as performance goes, it may throw a
student off ( or disenchant) more than on. Yet, I say leave no stone
unturned (try all ways). May be hipper (as far as copping a "boot
camp", no live performance available situation) to log several drum
sequences and play along , utilizing them. Try to insert progressions,
in your head (untaped) and use those tracks as aural backdrop. In this
manner, you will be accustomed to hearing drums and perhaps be more
able to jump in and play your stuff in real live situations; bootcamp
to the battleground (sans war, hopefully). It is not a perfect world.
Jazz reflects people and language, not robots and digits.
-TD
invisaman75
Use it a different way! I always use the click on 2 and 4 only to
give sorta like the high hat feel. This allows the strong beat to lay
were they may natural fall for different people. The 2 and 4 most be
locked!
jimmyb
You can answer your own question here. I don't know about the looper
but put on any CD , find the tempo and put on a metronome. Within 8
bars, the metronome is wrong or the players are not with the metronome
jimmyb
The metronome is always WRONG! you got it backwards. I'm saying the
sky is Blue you are saying it is another color. Or vice a versa,
time for me to go away. 1 +1 is always 2. You are saying it is not.
How do I know this? 40 years of playing music professionally
JonD
I agree with Joey, and use the metronome a lot. I think that, past
the point where you can basically stay in time, it's good for testing
your ability to - like Joey said - stay in time over longer periods
(mine will beat once every 2 bars) or to give you confusing
information to play against so you don't get so fazed when the drummer
or bass player throws you something funny (this you could do with BIAB
I guess).
I was at a workshop in Banff where Dave Douglas suggested playing in 4
with the metronome beating every 3,5,9,7, or whatever beats (so the
click falls on a different beat every bar), which tests your internal
time a little better. A great bass player from Melbourne - Matt
Clohesy, who's now playing lots in NY - once told me that he had
worked with the metronome click on once every 2 bars and then trying
to play loosely semi-rubato within that but nailing the metronome
click every 2 bars. I think that's the level I'd like to get to with
it. I've also tried setting the metronome up in 3 and then playing in
4 over the three (ie metronome on 1,2nd-triplet-of-2,3rd-triplet-
of-3,nothing on 4).
The main reason I do this stuff is become more confident asserting my
internal time (I'm prone to be not confident at all, and trust almost
anyone over myself), and to familiarise my ears with odd ways of
stating it so that when a drummer or bass player do something stange
to me, I can say - quickly - "oh, that's just that thing" and play
with it without getting fazed. I find it's really helped. Of course,
playing lots is incredibly important, and playing along with cd's
equaly so, but I only really started taking this more intense kind of
metronome practice seriously a few years ago, and it's made a big
difference to my playing. I like rhythm sections which play quite
freely to, and don't like the bass and drums walking all the time, and
if I'm going to ask them to do that, I need to be strong too, and
strong in a sense that is not always reliant on the driving rhythm
section sound.
It's also good because it gives you little exercises to complete and
makes for some good short term goals, which, if you're like me and
have trouble focussing on anything for long periods, is priceless, and
keeps you on the instrument for longer, and feeling better about it at
the end.
jimmyb
If all that is true why doesn't a metronome line up with any jazz
track. Try it, you'll see that in about 8 bars or more the high hat
or whatever is NOT with the metronome. Metronomic time sucks as dar
as I'm concerned, it is stiff, lack feelings and is unmusical. Only
thing I can think of that is good is if you are playing to a click
track which I did for many films in LA. And the music did NOT have
any feel. Thank god not all of the cues had to be synced down to
1/10th of a sec or smaller.
Nice Dan from UK
I think Jimmy has an extremely good point there. I feel the same about
over the top harmonic analysis of jazz. If 'theory' is the only way to
'learn' and play jazz then how come some of the best jazz doesn't 100%
follow all of the 'rules'?
Gerry
BIAB, purportedly a replacement for a metronome, will be dead on though.
Perhaps you're implying that a good player needs to be able to work
with variable time, because that's what humans really produce.
Infinite minor adjustments to the song at hand. That's true. But if
you can adjust to a metronome, you can adjust to humans.
I suppose I should have asked what the inherent beneficial differences
which playing with humans produces and that playing with a metronome
does not.
--
///---
tonyde...@gmail.com
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jazz is real time; theory remains frozen. It only gets thawed out on
the bandstand, and even then it may be jivin.
-TD
Gerry
> Metronomic time sucks as dar as I'm concerned, it is stiff, lack
> feelings and is unmusical.
I agree wholeheartedly. But then it's not music.
--
///---
Gerry
<Danieledw...@gmail.com> said:
> I think Jimmy has an extremely good point there. I feel the same about
> over the top harmonic analysis of jazz. If 'theory' is the only way to
> 'learn' and play jazz...
Do you know anybody who said that "theory is the only way to learn and
play jazz"?
> ...then how come some of the best jazz doesn't 100% follow all of the 'rules'?
Because it's an adjunct to "understanding" what you're already playing,
or are learning, and can give you ideas for other things you might want
to play or learn.
I suppose there are some for whom an understanding would be a problem.
But like tab v. legit notation, I think it's more about how people want
to allocate their time, and which things are too difficult for the
initial payback.
And now back to metronome...
--
///---
Gerry
>> I think Jimmy has an extremely good point there. I feel the same about
>> over the top harmonic analysis of jazz. If 'theory' is the only way to
>> 'learn' and play jazz then how come some of the best jazz doesn't 100%
>> follow all of the 'rules'?- Hide quoted text -
>
> Jazz is real time; theory remains frozen. It only gets thawed out on
> the bandstand, and even then it may be jivin.
Additionally: all theory is just that: it's *application* that matters.
--
///---
Keith Freeman
I have the utmost respect for your experience and professional and teaching
skills, Jimmy. But you can't say whether I benefited from using a metronome
or not, as you didn't hear me 'before' and 'after'.
If you're saying it would be better to work with a human who has excellent
time, then I think everyone would agree, but what if I don't have access to
one? If you're saying that there's no absolute time, only the time
that results from the interplay of two or more good musicians, I wouldn't
disagree with that either. But supposing I play along with Ray Brown on a
CD, surely the time is still 'wrong' in that he's reacting to some other
soloist, drummer etc., not to me?
Joey Goldstein
Bad bass lines and voicings too.
jimmyb
Using your Ray Brown example, you should would be playing along with
HIS time. The best of the best. Sure beats the hell out of
metronome. Try that for 2 weeks and get back to me
tom walls
> paul wrote:
> > On 6 Feb, 11:37, jimmyb <ji...@jimmybruno.com> wrote:
> >
> >> BAIB uses a 'humanizing" algorhythm which makes it sound as close to a
> >> live rhythm section as possible
> >
> > it doesn't do a very good job of this :). I have said this many times,
> > but I just can't deal with practicing with biab. the groove/feel/
> > whatever makes me feel like I'm playing with a wedding band or
> > something, give me a metronome over biab any day of the week and 6
> > days on sunday.
> >
>
> Bad bass lines and voicings too.
>
>
which defeats the purpose. Of course, I do use it, but that doesn't mean
I can't hate it.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
Joey Goldstein
>
> If all that is true why doesn't a metronome line up with any jazz
> track.
It won't line up with *any track* that was created by humans who were
playing w/o a click track, not just a jazz track.
Still, as musicians, we strive for accurate time (or we should), as
accurate as we are capable of. If we did not have a standard, like a
metronome, for what even beats actually sound like, then Western art
music (in which I am including jazz, for the purposes of this
discussion) would probably not have evolved to the level of complexity
that it is at today. Sure, there are lots of cultures where the
musicians have developed strong time feels without the aid of a
metronome, but if you've got one handy, my advice is to use it.
Check any track for exact tuning to 12-Tone-equal temperament. You'll
find that nobody's 100% in-tune either. That doesn't mean that we
shouldn't at least try to tune to A440 and get our guitars intonated,
does it?
And like I said before, any musician who can't play along with a
metronome is not a very good musician, IMO.
> Try it, you'll see that in about 8 bars or more the high hat
> or whatever is NOT with the metronome. Metronomic time sucks as dar
> as I'm concerned, it is stiff, lack feelings and is unmusical.
I agree, mostly, except for when it doesn't suck, like when a really
good drummer like Dave Weckel just nails it *and makes it feel good too*.
The bottom line, when playing with other people, especially in a jazz
setting, is to be listening to the entire ensemble *always* for the time
(as well as for other things). Practicing with a metronome helps to
train you to be able to focus on something other than yourself when you
play. I think that's a good thing.
Nobody tries to play unfeeling metronomic time.
We try to play good feeling time that neither rushes nor drags and where
the musicians attacks are all synchronized. When it does rush or drag,
it's usually unintentional, unless an accel or ritard is called for by
the music. If it happens unintentionally and it still sounds musical
then we say forget about it and move on. If it sucks, like it usually
does when that happens, we try again.
Sure it breathes. But it breathes around a standard. The tempo we count
a tune off at is the tempo we try to end at. At least that's how we do
it here in Toronto.
> Only
> thing I can think of that is good is if you are playing to a click
> track which I did for many films in LA. And the music did NOT have
> any feel. Thank god not all of the cues had to be synced down to
> 1/10th of a sec or smaller.
jimmyb
you can email me privately and I can have you prove it to yourself
Joey Goldstein
> If 'theory' is the only way to
> 'learn' and play jazz then how come some of the best jazz doesn't 100%
> follow all of the 'rules'?
Who ever told you that theory is the only way to learn jazz was either a
fool or was lying to you.
And I don't know what theories you've been studying, but if you really
get into it you'll realize that there are no rules. All there is is
things that your predecessors have done with relative success. We study
their successes in the hopes that we may glean a path to our own musical
success.
And, theory can't help you to learn jazz at all, anyway.
But once you know how to play some jazz, theory can help you get better
at it.
Same with metronomes. They can't teach you how to play in time. You have
to figure that out for yourself. But once you can play in time, a
metronome can help you to learn to do it better. Why anyone would not
want to take advantage of a tool like that is beyond me.
Keith Freeman
I'm snowed under with work. But I'll certainly give your suggestion a try
when I have more time to practise.
MQ
I think playing with BIAB or Aebersold is playing with a metrical AND
harmonic rhythm in mind, more like "performing".
But BIAB sucks when it comes to feeling or groove.
I use it sometimes, but only bass (muting all the other stuff) or only
piano. It feels more airily, more like a metronome,
more musical (if its possible).
I prefer the metronome.
Leaving space between the beats (2 and 4, only 3, etc.) gives you the
chance to feel the groove better then
a plastic band, and greater freedom with the harmonic rhythm
(anticipation, etc)
I hear a tune like Stella in a more creative way only listening to a
click rather then to a whole band (when practicing).
Its how you use it.
Michael
Nice Dan from UK
You'll notice my use of ' in my statement as personally I don't
believe that theory can wholly teach anyone jazz. Trust me, there's a
whole generation of people out there who don't trust their ears and
believe a load of 'rules'
Sounds good = is good.
Joey Goldstein
Some people shouldn't trust their ears because their ears suck.
There's still no rules.
Another Cleveland Guy
> On Feb 6, 10:48 am, jimmyb <ji...@jimmybruno.com> wrote:
> > My opinion is that the metronome will do no good. It's something you have to devlop internally. >
> Hey Jimmy, I didn't know you felt that way. I thought I was the only
> one around here who thought metronomes were useless.
Well I'm sure glad to hear that hipper players than me doubt the
usefulness of these things. I never thought they gave you any kind of
a real feel for music.
I agree; gaining a feel for time is an internal thing. I also agree
that time needs to "breathe." You'll never internalize that by using
a metronome.
Jonathan
tonyde...@gmail.com
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Trust me, there's a
> whole generation of people out there who don't trust their ears and
> believe a load of 'rules'"
So true, and this goes along with many parallels within that
generation (I do not speak of generation bashing; rather about the ilk
which has been "generated"). It is more laziness, perhaps, than
distrust. And this way of learning/playing is full of shit. I stand
undaunted by it, because I see it already beginning to turn around.
-TD
Max Leggett
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
That's right. Drag me into it.
>There's still no rules.
Miles said not to play what you hear, but educate your ears first. As
JB often laments, nobody listens. Jamie Aebersld says that the answers
to all your questions is on CDs, which is another way of saying the
same thing.
Metronomes, whatever. Time/swing/phrasing is imperative, and require
constant attention and adjustment. Gigging is the anwswer - the stage
will highlight what needs to be done, which is, invariably, time feel,
which is best improved by interaction with humans. Metronomes are good
for mechanical practice, nothing else. Mecanical precision does not
equal good time, be it Bach or Bird. Ray Brown is always right.
jimmyb
I don't see how anyone can listen to (and I mean just listen and feel
the music don't analyze where the beat is) to Bobby Darin's Mack The
Knife , or Spiral Staircase "I love You More Today Than Yesterday" or
Basie's "april In Paris" and not get a sense of what good time is.
Des Higgins
> On Feb 6, 11:35 am, jimmyb <ji...@jimmybruno.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 6, 10:25 am, Keith Freeman <smtp.cablewanadoo.nl> wrote:
>
> > > > What do you guys think about the benefits (or detriments) of using a
> > > > metronome to practice? I am taking lessons at JBGI, and Jimmy
> > > > believes that metronomes are a bad idea and will make you sound
> > > > stiff. That sounds counter intuitive to me, but I am definitely not
> > > > qualified to argue one way or another -- I am a really terrible
> > > > player.
>
> > > or haven't used it correctly? With his rock solid time, of course, he
> > > wouldn't need one!
>
> > > I can only talk about my own experience. When Garrison Fewell told me 'Your
> > > time's all f####d up, Keith' and I asked him what to do, his advice was
> > > 'Practise with a metronome', and when I did I certainly felt the benefit.
> > > The idea is to observe where you're speeding up and slowing down without
> > > realizing it, not to copy the rigidity of the metronome beat. If you treat
> > > it as a rhythm section (or to align the RS in your head) you shouldn't go
> > > far wrong. There was a clip of Pat Metheny playing a whole song with a
> > > metronome as his RS posted recently on youtube - nothing stiff about his
> > > playing!
>
> > > -Keith
>
> > > Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.:www.keithfreemantrio.nl
> > > e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
>
> > gets away from the metronome in many places - which is a GOOD thing.
> > Time in all music is not metronomic, it breathes. He probably used it
> > so he could have something to play off of.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> sound a little kinky when I think of it.
>
> -TD- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
For syncopated sex you would have to thrust on the offbeats?
How about the Charleston?
Des
Joey Goldstein
> I also agree
> that time needs to "breathe." You'll never internalize that by using
> a metronome.
You'll never know if you've got strong time or not until you use one, at
least once.
Joey Goldstein
Except that getting a sense of it and having it are two different things.
Max Leggett
wrote:
>On Feb 6, 5:53 pm, Max Leggett <kidkoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:34:49 -0500, Joey Goldstein
>> Miles said not to play what you hear, but educate your ears first. As
>> JB often laments, nobody listens. Jamie Aebersld says that the answers
>> to all your questions is on CDs, which is another way of saying the
>> same thing.
>>
>> Metronomes, whatever. Time/swing/phrasing is imperative, and require
>> constant attention and adjustment. Gigging is the anwswer - the stage
>> will highlight what needs to be done, which is, invariably, time feel,
>> which is best improved by interaction with humans. Metronomes are good
>> for mechanical practice, nothing else. Mecanical precision does not
>> equal good time, be it Bach or Bird. Ray Brown is always right.
>
>I don't see how anyone can listen to (and I mean just listen and feel
>the music don't analyze where the beat is) to Bobby Darin's Mack The
>Knife , or Spiral Staircase "I love You More Today Than Yesterday" or
>Basie's "april In Paris" and not get a sense of what good time is.
I get the sense from a lot of posts that 'listening' consists of
playing CDs in the background. I remember siting around with two other
guys and arguing for hours how a particular drummer got a sound, and
only one of us was a drummer. Listening takes concentration and focus,
not just hitting the play button.
Max Leggett
wrote:
.... which involved playing the LP over and over and over and cueing
up that one track.
jimmyb
> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 23:09:15 GMT, Max Leggett <kidkoo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 14:57:04 -0800 (PST), jimmyb <ji...@jimmybruno.com>
> >wrote:
>
> >>On Feb 6, 5:53 pm, Max Leggett <kidkoo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:34:49 -0500, Joey Goldstein
> >>> Miles said not to play what you hear, but educate your ears first. As
> >>> JB often laments, nobody listens. Jamie Aebersld says that the answers
> >>> to all your questions is on CDs, which is another way of saying the
> >>> same thing.
>
> >>> Metronomes, whatever. Time/swing/phrasing is imperative, and require
> >>> constant attention and adjustment. Gigging is the anwswer - the stage
> >>> will highlight what needs to be done, which is, invariably, time feel,
> >>> which is best improved by interaction with humans. Metronomes are good
> >>> for mechanical practice, nothing else. Mecanical precision does not
I don't see how anyone can listen to (and I mean just listen and feel
Stan Fong
> I agree that BIAB, Aebersold's, or even a decent drum machine "feel"
> better than a regular metronome when practicing your time.
> Everyone's forgotten another important component to this learning
> process: record, critique, record, critique!
> These days I use a handy Zoom H4 for rehearsals, gigs, and my own
> practicing, and I'm always amazed what I can learn just by listening
> to a few tunes (amazed more by the mistakes, of course!). I have a
> big tendency to rush, rush, rush, so I have to remember to breathe,
> breathe, breathe . ..
>
> One of my first jazz teachers years ago (Matt Dunne in San Antonio)
> was shocked that I didn't have a 4-track to record/practice with. His
> take, essentially, was "how do you expect to get better when you're
> not listening to yourself?!"
>
> Ciao,
> Marcwww.marcwhygroup.comwww.myspace.com/marcwhygroup
Marc,
I couldn't agree more. Recordings don't lie. That's a great way to
listen to yourself introspectively. It's a great way to evaluate the
good and the bad aspects of your playing. Listening to recordings of
myself have helped me focus and work on the weak aspects of my
playing. Recordings are a true and accurate documention of what your'e
doing.
Stan
Another Cleveland Guy
> Another Cleveland Guy wrote:
> > I also agree
> > that time needs to "breathe." You'll never internalize that by using
> > a metronome.
>
> You'll never know if you've got strong time or not until you use one, at
> least once.
It's worth noting that hipper players than me also disagree... ah
well...
tonyde...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Depending on her, I would 'thrust' my own judgement. Perhaps, an
adjusted Tango.
-TD
RB
just about anywhere else....His time is as good as it gets...
Now, if a bona fide master like Metheny uses a metronome on those
public clips that should be ample evidence
that they are ESSENTIAL to any musicians development.
Max Smith
> I sometimes turn off all the BIAB instruments
> except bass and drums in order to practice this way.
>
> Mike
I almost always use BIAB this way - just bass and drums. And I find the
least cheesy style pattern I can, which usually ends up being minimal
without a lot of drum fills. I agree with Joey in that you can rely on
the backing track too much to support you - if you use just the bass and
a simple brush pattern on the drums, then you have to be responsible for
handling more of the melodic, harmonic and rhythmic burden.
I was complimenting a fellow guitarist the other day that when I hear
him practicing single line improv alone, without a track, I can always
tell what tune he's playing and where he is in the tune - that is a very
good thing in my opinion.
I have used a metronome for gradually increasing speed on exercises and
to keep me driving ahead while sightreading - I think they can be
useful, but probably more useful to people who have good time anyway. I
have tremendous respect for Jimmy and Pat Metheny and I have heard
Metheny recommend always playing to some external time reference - drum
machine, metronome, human being(!) - but to me it's just an indication
that people can become great players using differing methods and
techniques - just look at the difference between JB and PM's picking
styles - yet they are both fantastic players.
Max S.
Max Smith
>
> Miles said not to play what you hear, but educate your ears first. As
> JB often laments, nobody listens. Jamie Aebersld says that the answers
> to all your questions is on CDs, which is another way of saying the
> same thing.
>
Now that the day of all night jam sessions and the territory and touring
bands has all but disappearred - the best college to learn jazz is not
any of the big brick and mortar campuses that have dissected, codified
and petrified jazz, but the vast near century's worth recorded legacy of
the true greats, not the tenured schoolteachers.
Max S.
Dan Adler
> metronome to practice?
Here'a a cut and paste from a recent post I did on another thread. I'm
not going to argue if you need a metronome or not. If you don't, then
please read no further. But if you do, then I think it matters a lot
which one you get.
I recently got a Boss Dr. Beat DB-30 metronome, and
it has an electronic visual version of the side-to-side pendulum of
the mechanical metronomes. I find that to actually be the best tool
because you are visually looking at the entire beat and it is not just
being reduced to a single click.
You can see when you are getting to the edge rather than just seeing
it as a point it time. The beat does not surprise you. You can see as
it approaches the edge. That's a big difference from just hearing a
click.
Once you visualize the entire beat, it becomes quite easy to practice
placing your notes in various parts of the beat and "leaning" against
the top or bottom of the beat. I would highly recommend the DB-30 over
any metronome on the market.
theappoint...@gmail.com
just about anywhere else. "
You need your head examined...........BUB
mejoemo...@yahoo.com
I play along with Joe Pass solo recordings sometimes and hang on and
dig in when he gets going. I love his swing feel.
If feel = time, then Joe is IT for me.
Try it...some of his tempos are a lot faster than if you're merely
listening! <grin>
JM
Max Smith
Well, then I guess turning a thin pick sideways and bending it is the
only way to get a good tone from a guitar.
As I said here before, if the great jazz guitarists' (or really all
great guitarists') playing demonstrates, there are many paths that can
lead to mastery and and a distinctive style, not just one.
Max S.
Dan Adler
Hey RB,
Nice to hear from you! Don't forget Toots, he's not half bad...
RB
You just made a fool of yourself....
sheets
routine, my time, etc.
Far from seeing them as mechanical robots, I see them as an extension
of my heart rhythms, my breathing, etc. I find that when I lose myself
in the rhythm and I'm still "with" the metronome my playing becomes
way more independent and my ability to control what part of the beat I
want to emphasize (laying back, driving, grooving) is enhanced.
YMMV but that's my experience.
Jeanmi
Any scientific analysis on the subject of rythm in music you'll find
(ex: http://www.tlafx.com/jasa06_1g.pdf) will show that the rythm of
great performers and great swinging music is *very* far away from a
click track....
The conclusion of the jasa06_1g.pdf is interesting: there's no other
way to *listen* to actual music to get the rythm.
On 6 fév, 14:56, Alex <apeche...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> What do you guys think about the benefits (or detriments) of using a
> metronome to practice? I am taking lessons at JBGI, and Jimmy
> believes that metronomes are a bad idea and will make you sound
> stiff. That sounds counter intuitive to me, but I am definitely not
> qualified to argue one way or another -- I am a really terrible
> player.
>
> However, I was wondering if that is a common perception (regarding
> metronomes, not my terrible playing) among experienced jazz guitarists
> (of which there are plenty here). Just wanna see what most people
> think...
>
> P.S.
> I love JBGI and I've seen improvement in my playing from absolutely
> dismal, all in one key, horrible junk to much better (but still
> terribly weak and boring) playing in a VERY short amount of time.
> This is not sarcasm, it is high praise. I thought I would never
> progress one iota - after 7 years of playing -- but JBGI gave me a
> real hope, as I saw real results, real quick, and I can see lots of
> more results coming in the future if I follow the course and do my
> praciticing.
Alex
> On 2008-02-06 05:56:45 -0800, Alex <apeche...@gmail.com> said:
>
> > What do you guys think about the benefits (or detriments) of using a
> > metronome to practice? I am taking lessons at JBGI, and Jimmy
> > believes that metronomes are a bad idea and will make you sound
> > stiff. That sounds counter intuitive to me, but I am definitely not
> > qualified to argue one way or another -- I am a really terrible
> > player.
>
> present in the room.
>
> If your time is really bad, I think working with a metronome is a good
> way to help clean it up. If you're the kind of player who tries to play
> too fast all the time it can be a good way to make you slow down and be
> more consistent. It's a good aid to pick up your speed while retaining
> accuracy in execution if you set it at an appropriate mark and increase
> it slowly over a period of months.
>
> I can see how it would theoretically make you sound stiff if that's all
> you ever played with for years. I can't imagine who would do that.
> Certainly it would be better to play with real humans. It would also be
> good playing with recordings, but one can't adjust them for their needs.
>
> I can't see why it wouldn't be useful to work with a metronome on a
> temporary basis when attempting to address a specific piece and trying
> to get the time right and accuracy right on it. On the other hand it
> shouldn't be necessary to work forever with a metronome.
> --
> ///---
Well, I am not second guessing, really. I trust Jimmy's teaching
method, and intend to follow it.
tonyde...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well then you can't go wrong.
-TD
tonyde...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, but we'll have to add another h first.
-TD
Dan Adler
> To bring some *facts* to the discussion:
>
> Any scientific analysis on the subject of rythm in music you'll find
> (ex:http://www.tlafx.com/jasa06_1g.pdf) will show that the rythm of
> great performers and great swinging music is *very* far away from a
> click track....
>
> The conclusion of the jasa06_1g.pdf is interesting: there's no other
> way to *listen* to actual music to get the rythm.
...And there is a body of academic studis that show that metronome
training can increase coordination and motor skills. Some are even
using it to treat children with disorders. For example:
Keith Freeman
> (ex: http://www.tlafx.com/jasa06_1g.pdf) will show that the rythm of
> great performers
Sure, but I'd just point out that rhythm is not the same thing as time,
it's what the performer imposes on the time. You can have deficiencies in
your time but still perform well rhythmically, if - as JB rightly pointed
out - you aren't struggling with the instrument or the ideas.
Gerry
>> It's kinda tough to second-guess the advice of your teacher, when he's
>> present in the room.
>>
>> If your time is really bad, I think working with a metronome is a good
>> way to help clean it up.
[snip]
> Well, I am not second guessing, really. I trust Jimmy's teaching
> method, and intend to follow it.
I was referring to our task, in responding to your question.
--
///---
theappoint...@gmail.com
> just about anywhere else. "
> You need your head examined...........BUB
You just made a fool of yourself....
You have a point RB, after all I did respond to your post. However I
do have to ask, do you have holes in your ears?
Forget about "anywhere else", forget about "this forum" in general,
there are two people on this very thread that run circles around that
hippie twerp you're so enamored with.
Any questions ?................didn't think so,.........NOW TAKE A
WALK !
Joey Goldstein
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Max Leggett
wrote:
>> ny scientific analysis on the subject of rythm in music you'll find
>> (ex: http://www.tlafx.com/jasa06_1g.pdf) will show that the rythm of
>> great performers
>
>Sure, but I'd just point out that rhythm is not the same thing as time,
Bingo.
Jeanmi
Fig 3 in particular is revealing: this is the particular rythm that my
cello player, who's a pro classical player and can be dead on with a
metronome, has been unable to play once correctly in the last 3 years.
I'm sure metronome can be useful, but if you become rigid about it and
practice too much eight and sixteen notes with it it can then become
really difficult to hear and feel the swing rythm and even harder to
get a cuban or brazilian claves.
How many of those brazilian masters of the clave did practice with a
metronome anyway?
Being able to listen and to play with others, mimicing *their* rythm,
is an essential musical skill to me. If a metronome gets you there,
fine.
For me listening to Joao Gilberto, to Count Basie, to Ella Fitzgerald
and to Jorge Ben for countless hours was the key: plus it was
enjoyable!
sheets
> " Metheny plays LEAGUES better than anyone on this forum or
>
> > just about anywhere else. "
> > You need your head examined...........BUB
>
> You just made a fool of yourself....
>
> You have a point RB, after all I did respond to your post. However I
> do have to ask, do you have holes in your ears?
> Forget about "anywhere else", forget about "this forum" in general,
> there are two people on this very thread that run circles around that
> hippie twerp you're so enamored with.
Oy...I have to step in here. Mark and Jimmy are fabulous players and
among my favorites to listen to but Pat Metheny is an amazing
guitarist too and is a much-in-demand sideman for people such as
Herbie Hancock, Jack DeJohnette, Mike Brecker (RIP), etc. Your comment
about someone running circles around Metheny is a very naive
statement. This isn't the patriots and the giants. This is art.
Artists don't run circles around other artists.
Calling him a hippie twerp just serves to show your ignorance.
Gerry
> Look at http://www.geocities.com/sd_au/samba/sambadrums.html
>
> Fig 3 in particular is revealing: this is the particular rythm that my
> cello player, who's a pro classical player and can be dead on with a
> metronome, has been unable to play once correctly in the last 3 years.
One does not use a metronome to learn "swing". One has good solid time,
acquired by time spent with a metronome, a band, recordings, or focused
work of another type. Once you have accurate time, you can acquire or
may have simultaneously acquired a "swing".
To Jimmy's point: Working with a solid group or recordings would allow
you to gain precision of time AS WELL as acquiring a experience-based
"understanding" or capacity for "swing".
The concept of jazz "swing" and Brazilian and Latin time as well, are
things that are acquired, and can only be acuired by playing. And
likely the music is greatly lessened, potentially broken, without these
rhythmic characteristics. Though I don't want to start a Al DiMeola
jihad, perhaps some of the players during those years in the mid/late
70's were overly influenced in their timing by metronomic work and/or
metronomic intent. "Straight eighths" ruled as the approach du jour.
There, point goes to metronome avoidance.
On the other hand if your time is incompetent, you are an egregious
rusher or dragger, you need remedial work. Metronome to the rescue. If
you are greatly bettered by the process and acquire very steady or even
rock-solid time, that's great, now ditch the metronome and work
at--dare I say it?--Swing in the line.
> I'm sure metronome can be useful, but if you become rigid about it and
> practice too much eight and sixteen notes with it it can then become
> really difficult to hear and feel the swing rythm and even harder to
> get a cuban or brazilian claves.
Precisamente!
> How many of those brazilian masters of the clave did practice with a
> metronome anyway?
There is no such thing as Brazilian clave. There are myriad cyclic
rhythms, but clave isn't simply a repetitive rhythm. Clave is unique to
Latin-American musics.
> Being able to listen and to play with others, mimicing *their* rythm,
> is an essential musical skill to me. If a metronome gets you there,
> fine.
I don't think a metronome can get you there, only mimicry as you
mention. But while learning to walk, metronome's are useful and valid,
like "training wheels" before learning to run.
> For me listening to Joao Gilberto, to Count Basie, to Ella Fitzgerald
> and to Jorge Ben for countless hours was the key: plus it was
> enjoyable!
Whic demonstrates the most important skill to acquire: listening.
--
///---
theappoint...@gmail.com
I specifically said "two" players on this thread not three, but you
knew that you kibbitzer you.
Saw a video of yours recently, and well all I can muster is an "Oy"
Ya know RB is going out for a walk, why don't you join him.
P.S. Joe Finn for president !
jimmyb
> On 2008-02-07 08:30:10 -0800, Jeanmi <jmg...@gmail.com> said:
>
I think that if a person's time is so bad that you need to resort to
a metronome, that guy should find another avenue of artistic
expression. Just my 2 cents. I am going to leave this alone now. I
know this from professional experience. If you don't believe me then
so be it. Everyone may have different views on this and that is fine
by me. I'm not into arguing or making any further points. To each
his own.
jimmyb
Ps, sorry i said anything.
335p...@gmail.com
>
> I think that if a person's time is so bad that you need to resort to
> a metronome, that guy should find another avenue of artistic
> expression. Just my 2 cents.
that probably covers a very large percentage of all the people who try
to play music.
sheets
> Hey Shiltz,
>
> I specifically said "two" players on this thread not three, but you
> knew that you kibbitzer you.
>
> Saw a video of yours recently, and well all I can muster is an "Oy"
Then post some of yours ...
tom walls
>
>
> > How many of those brazilian masters of the clave did practice with a
> > metronome anyway?
>
> There is no such thing as Brazilian clave. There are myriad cyclic
> rhythms, but clave isn't simply a repetitive rhythm. Clave is unique to
> Latin-American musics.
Point of fact, I learned "Brazilian clave" from a Puerto Rican, but
after you challenged me on it I had to admit that I couldn't find it
in actual Brazilian music.
jimmyb
Actually it means the opposite. anyone who can clap in time to music
DOES NOT need a metronome.
jimmyb
Actually it means the opposite. Anyone who can clap in time to music
does not need a metronome
335p...@gmail.com
Jimmy, I take your point that most of us can internally feel a sense
of time and clap hands in time. But when you add in this monster
called the guitar, plus all the knowledge that is required to play
jazz, then keeping time and maintaining a good rhythmic feel gets a
lot more difficult. I agree about playing along with recordings and
that metronomic time is not really what jazz time is all about. But
the metronome can useful for focusing on certain areas of rhythmic
weakness. my .02
JonD
I think a lot of people (me included on a bad day) would have trouble
clapping (accurately) in time by themselves though. Being able to
keep up with someone else is one thing, being able to 'provide' strong
time for others or an audience is another...I think you're right
though - some people probably don't need to spend a lot of time with a
click for whatever reason (more live opportunities with strong
players...playing since a younger age...more confidence...whatever),
but I think a lot of us find that we do need metronomes, and that the
progress we make with them is immediately noticeable and justifies
itself.
Joey Goldstein
While there may indeed be several people on this ng who have more guitar
techniques their command than PM has, PM has better time than any of
them, and has produced at triple their creative output 9or more) in his
53 years on the planet.
Whether you like the way he swings better or worse than somebody else is
totally subjective. But he definitely knows how to swing, or people like
Herbie Hancock, Jack Dejonette, Roy Haynes, Billy Higgins, Mike Brecker,
Joshua Redman, Kenny Garrett, Brad Mehldau, Bill Stewart, Bob Moses,
Jaco Pastorius, and Larry Grenadier (did I leave anybody out...oh yeah,
Gary Burton) simply would not play, tour, and record with him.
Gerry
>> I think that if a person's time is so bad that you need to resort to
>> a metronome, that guy should find another avenue of artistic
>> expression. Just my 2 cents. I am going to leave this alone now. I
>> know this from professional experience. If you don't believe me then
>
>> so be it. Everyone may have different views on this and that is fine
>> by me. I'm not into arguing or making any further points. To each
>> his own.
>
> Ps, sorry i said anything.
I can't guess why. Some agree, some don't. But I think everybody
involved certainly has questioned their own thinking, and I can't
imagine that's not a good thing.
--
///---
Joey Goldstein
I think that lots of people can clap along to someone else keeping time
for them but it'll be sloppy.
Very few can clap along accurately.
The ones who can do it accurately have usually spent some time with a
metronome.
And it's much easier to clap along to band playing something because
they're filling in all the holes and telling you where the time is every
subdivision. When you play with just a metronome *you* have to learn to
feel all those subdivisions yourself.
And when you talk about your 40 years experience as a professional
player being the proof that metronomes are not useful, my eyes just roll
over. You certainly can't be saying that all of the people you've ever
worked with all say that metronomes are useless. That would be totally
untenable.
If you personally never needed to resort to using one, well that's one
thing. But you're the exception to the rule, not the rule.
I'm all for playing along with and listening closely to records in order
to develop a strong time feel. But someone who can't play with a
metronome shouldn't give up music. He should practice, with a metronome.
And I've got at least one student who can play along fairly successfully
with records, but can't play in time *at all* with real people or with a
metronome. The records do all the time keeping for him, and he hasn't
learned how to do it for himself because he's always got the record as a
crutch.
Gerry
>> There is no such thing as Brazilian clave. There are myriad cyclic
>> rhythms, but clave isn't simply a repetitive rhythm. Clave is unique to
>> Latin-American musics.
>
> Point of fact, I learned "Brazilian clave" from a Puerto Rican, but
> after you challenged me on it I had to admit that I couldn't find it
> in actual Brazilian music.
If you have a real understanding of how clave works in music, you
realize the Brazilians are not adhereing to this on/off time that
weaves it's way across and through a larger space. Clave comes in waves
over time, just like working 3 over 4 or 4 over three. Brazilian
music, as a part of its musical fundamental, doesn't work this way. In
fact I don't know any other music that does. And, for instance,
Mexican and other Latin musics don't relate to clave that way PR and
Cuban musics do. While most *styles* of PR/Cuban/NewYorican do.
Your experience makes really good sense. In fact I met this Latino sax
player who really lived and breathed Brazilian music. He was working
with a band I loved but discounted the (fantastic) rhythm section. He
said that they were still working "in clave" on everything, Brazilian
or not. It was subtle but irritating. I began listening for it and
was surprised that it was true. So it makes perfect sense that an
adherent would think in terms of "Brazilian clave" and actually do it.
Even so the clave they are describing is "out of clave", in that it
doesn't really maintain this off/on thing. It's more or less off/off,
which makes it non clave! It's strange...
--
///---
tom walls
>
> Your experience makes really good sense. In fact I met this Latino sax
> player who really lived and breathed Brazilian music. He was working
> with a band I loved but discounted the (fantastic) rhythm section. He
> said that they were still working "in clave" on everything, Brazilian
> or not. It was subtle but irritating. I began listening for it and
> was surprised that it was true. So it makes perfect sense that an
> adherent would think in terms of "Brazilian clave" and actually do it.
> Even so the clave they are describing is "out of clave", in that it
> doesn't really maintain this off/on thing. It's more or less off/off,
> which makes it non clave! It's strange...
> --
> ///---
I just googled "brazilian clave" and got 214,000 hits. A quick scan
suggests that they are by and large discussions of brazilian music by
non-brazilians. There are a few interesting paragraphs here:
http://www.alexawebermorales.com/2006/11/brazilian-clave-and-cuban.html
ken
> Actually it means the opposite. Anyone who can clap in time to music
> does not need a metronome
Well, a lot of people I really respect advocate using a metronome (I
think Sheryl Bailey just did in another thread and she has just about
the best time I've ever heard from anyone in this group), so it can't
be all bad.
But on the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if you went to every
single village in Africa where kids learn complex rhythms (well,
complex only from an American point of view) at a very young age and
didn't find a single metronome or anything like it...
:)
Ken
paul s
my perspective on this.
I had been playing for a several years before I went to Berklee, had
done some gigs and had a very good teacher (Don Mock). Had logged many
hours playing along with records.
My guitar teacher at Berklee was Brett Wilmott (he had been one of
Pat's students when Pat was there), he had me working on some rhythmic
figures, playing them with a metronome set on 2 and 4.
I was surprised that it was so difficult for me. It took me several
weeks to be able to do it without getting out of sync. When I finally
got it, it felt like a huge step forward.
As several posters have mentioned, it requires "split focus" - playing
and listening, which carries over onto the bandstand.
Mick Goodrick has his thoughts on metronomes in the "Advancing
Guitarist" book. Wish I had it handy so I could quote. Briefly, he's
"for" them.
I say this with all the respect in the world for Jimmy Bruno. His
approach obviously worked very well for him.
Nowadays, I just use the 'nome occasionally for practicing. I
recently got a boss dr-30. which Dan Adler recommended. I like it!
Paul S
Gerry
>> Actually it means the opposite. Anyone who can clap in time to music
>> does not need a metronome
>
> I think a lot of people (me included on a bad day) would have trouble
> clapping (accurately) in time by themselves though. Being able to
> keep up with someone else is one thing, being able to 'provide' strong
> time for others or an audience is another...I think you're right
> though - some people probably don't need to spend a lot of time with a
> click for whatever reason (more live opportunities with strong
> players...playing since a younger age...more confidence...whatever),
> but I think a lot of us find that we do need metronomes, and that the
> progress we make with them is immediately noticeable and justifies
> itself.
Just to keep things mired in their current state, note that NO ONE can
clap "accurately" to time if the indication of time is precisely what a
machine would measure. Upstream there are a number of indications that
players on recordings (sans click track) do not adhere exactly to time.
By this same token every "clap" you make, good time or bad, will have
some measure of distance away from true accuracy.
In sum, nobody can clap in time to music.
--
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sheets
Do you ever talk in practicals or is everything in absolutes?
According to your logic, my 12 year old neighbor who loves britany can
not only play jazz but has great time (though not measured by machine)
and would not be considered a jazz guitarist.
JonD
But closer is generally better, right? Someone said way back that
rhythm and groove are different things. You practice groove with
recordings, and rhythm with a metronome.
sheets
The way I look at it is like you just stated. However, if you don't
have good time, you can't have good groove, generally speaking.
The metronome is a calibration device. No matter how good your time
is, you periodically need to recalibrate by practicing with it. The
metronome does not make you play stiff or inhibit your playing. It
just recalibrates you just like using a tuning note does not de-
calibrate your ability to hear relative pitch.