Memory problem, anyone else with this?
Patrick L
the reason I have not been able to gig or pursue a career, or at least it is
my opinion that this is so.
I've got poor short term memory. My muscle memory works sometimes, but it
is not reliable ( I also get stage fright and this can obliterate my muscle
memory -- I've played on gigs where my mind just blanked, and the song was
gone, very embarrassing having to start the tune over in the middle of the
song --, which is more of a problem with solo playing ). I can remember
about 20 songs, and if I try to learn song number 21, it won't stay in my
brain. It will, or it might, if I practice the tune for about six months,
and at that rate, I'll never acquire a repertoire sufficient to solo gig.
But, I could do okay with sheet music in front of me, because I sight read
very well, and I've gigged on solo chord melody type gigs before, doing it
this way, and so that is a solution, but that is not the only problem.
For playing with others, if I have no sheet music in front of me, I can't
remember the chords or hold the progression in my head without sheet music,
and so I lose my place in the chord stream when soloing. One solution is
just to play easy songs like Summertime, Comin' Home Baby, etc., but most
musicians do want to play more challenging tunes, and I should not be there
holding other guys back, making them do only the tunes that I can play
without having to rely on sheet music. I can gig with sheet music, but I
feel like a loser being the guy who has to have sheet music in front of him
all the time.
That being said, I watched a Peter Sprague concert a few days back ( what a
player! ), and he had sheet music in front of him ( though he is playing a
lot of not-your-usual-standards ), so I guess my concern is unfounded, so my
question is what do you say about players who require sheet music in front
of them in order to play? What is the general consensus on this?
Also, I'm wondering if there is any meds, or alt med route to cure it.
Bg
charts, but as I get older(60's), I'm feeling better with a chart in
front of me, because once in a while I'll go blank on the bridge or a
part of a tune, if I don't play it very often.
I usually follow the chart the frist time thru, and then only refer to
it if needed.
It's nice to have it there just in case.
Bg
Bg
I've also been taking some thing called Ginkgo Beloba, that is a diet
supplement from Jamieson , that helps keep the brain a little fresher,
and help my memory, at least it seems to.
It was recommended to me by a friend, but I forget his name (just
kidding)
Bg
Keith Freeman
their music stands ;-}
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
Gerry
> I've got poor short term memory. My muscle memory works sometimes, but
> it is not reliable ( I also get stage fright and this can obliterate my
> muscle memory -- I've played on gigs where my mind just blanked, and
> the song was gone, very embarrassing having to start the tune over in
> the middle of the song --, which is more of a problem with solo playing
> ). I can remember about 20 songs, and if I try to learn song number
> 21, it won't stay in my brain.
You say you have poort short term memory and then give examples of
musical performance difficulties. They may well not be connected. You
may have some medical/brain/memory problems about which none of us can
really be relied upon to help you with. Assuming the problems is the
average ones then:
> It will, or it might, if I practice the tune for about six months, and
> at that rate, I'll never acquire a repertoire sufficient to solo gig.
Why not? You don't have six months to "waste"? If you memorize a tune,
play it daily for three weeks (21 days in a row), chances are that if
you don't play it for 3 months, you'll still remember it. Maxwell
Maltz, among others has pointed out that habits, real habits, take time
to break or to "set". 21 days is the period of time that amputees
generally continue to have "phantom pain", itching and other ghost
responses from the now-missing limbs. Etc.
In lessons with Barry Galbraith he asked if I knew a tune, I said yes I
did, but I had forgotten it. You never knew it, was his response. If
you really learn a tune, it doesn't go away. That was his
pronouncement. I believe it's true.
> But, I could do okay with sheet music in front of me, because I sight
> read very well, and I've gigged on solo chord melody type gigs before,
> doing it this way, and so that is a solution, but that is not the only
> problem.
After having spent a generation with lead sheets in front of me, I can
say it is a great way to avoid memorizing tunes. Reading is not
memorization. Memorization is memorization. I've read lots of plays
but have only memorized lines for a dozen or so. And forgetting a line
on stage happened about twice in my lifetime, on both occasions I got
out of bed with a cold to do the performance.
Similarly playing a tune is not memorizing it. It can certainly help
in memorizing it by reinforcing your "flight path". For many months I
played "There's a Time For Us" occasionally while sitting on the couch.
But when I got to the bridge, or the highly modified repetition of the
A section, I'd always screw it up--I'd never actuallly learned it.
After a year of this I sat down and learned it more carefully and did
it a number times. Two months later it was gone again!
All the times I had goofed it up were set in my brain alongside the
8-10 times I had done it right. The score was 150 to 10. I lose.
Repetition of anything--including a screwed up B section, a bad
fingering a wrong chord, serves to fix in one's memory as rapidly--or
not--as anything else.
> For playing with others, if I have no sheet music in front of me, I
> can't remember the chords or hold the progression in my head without
> sheet music, and so I lose my place in the chord stream when soloing.
If you really know the changes and lose your place in the solo it
usually means you aren't really "tracking" the changes as you proceed
through the tune, or you aren't listening to the other players. Both
can be addressed by listening more and playing with others more
frequently.
> One solution is just to play easy songs like Summertime, Comin' Home
> Baby, etc., but most musicians do want to play more challenging
> tunes, and I should not be there holding other guys back, making them
> do only the tunes that I can play without having to rely on sheet
> music. I can gig with sheet music, but I feel like a loser being the
> guy who has to have sheet music in front of him all the time.
And you'll never memorize those tunes if you simply read them every
night. But whether you feel like a loser or not is your problem; one
of self-perception, not really a problem of memory, performance or
anything else.
> That being said, I watched a Peter Sprague concert a few days back (
> what a player! ), and he had sheet music in front of him ( though he is
> playing a lot of not-your-usual-standards ), so I guess my concern is
> unfounded,
I'm not sure what concern is unfounded. The idea that having sheet
music in front of you makes you feel like a loser? Cool, that problem
can be set aside. But I still think that addressing the actual
*memorization* of tunes is worthwhile to address.
> so my question is what do you say about players who require sheet music
> in front of them in order to play? What is the general consensus on
> this?
My view is that they haven't memorized the tune. That's neither good
nor bad. It's bad if the sheet-music stand gets knocked-over. Then
you'll look and sound like an incompetent, I suppose. Also, over time,
you won't have accrued a solid backlog of pieces on which you are
"accomplished".
In a book on learning to play the piano (for beginners), the author
says you should always have 2 or three tunes at the read if you happen
to encounter a piano and others, knowing you are studying, ask you to
perform. *Always* have a few tunes you feel comfortable playing.
Obviously these would be tunes you've memorized. I think the same
should be said for every guitarist. If somebody hands you a guitar and
says "play something", you should have a few tunes ready to
demonstrate, to some degree, your level of skill.
For a professional player the same thing could be said as well, except
that the pro should be able to do a set or two without any pre-prep.
> Also, I'm wondering if there is any meds, or alt med route to cure it.
I'd recommending going to a doctor.
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
335
if you can memorize 20 tunes then you've got enough for a solo gig and
you can call the same tunes when you are playing with others. If they
call something you don't know then ask for a chart. Perhaps you can
find out in advance which tunes these people are playing and you can
do some wood shedding in advance. Part of the problem could be your
expectations. You think you are supposed to know x number of tunes
without sheet music and be able to solo on them, but for a number of
different reasons you're not there yet. It takes time and experience
and a lot of listening to really learn and internalize tunes. I think
it helps to set a goal like one tune per week or three tunes per month
or whatever you can realistically achieve. It gets easier the more you
do it. If it's anxiety and stage fright that's causing you to forget
than possibly some relaxation techniques or prescription beta blockers
would help you.
rpjazzguitar
could tell if somebody played the wrong chords. This would indicate, I
think, that our memories are functioning.
But, only some of us can use that knowledge to play any of those tunes
in any key on the fly. Many musicians memorize a tune in a particular
key and will struggle if the tune is called in a different key.
I was in a class a few years back where the teacher started playing
Stella in F, not the usual Bb. Two of the students were well known
players whose names you would know. One of them got it in a chorus or
two. Another took several choruses. The teacher, a Brazilian guitarist
who doesn't read, probably had no idea he was playing it in an unusual
key. I heard him backing up singers on other tunes and he didn't seem
to care what key they wanted. The wedding musicians of my youth
probably wouldn't have even stopped looking bored when they switched
keys.
The better musicians can hear the cadences of chords and find them on
the instrument without difficulty. I'd guess, because I don't have
data on this, that those are the guys who know a zillion tunes and can
play in any key. My point is that this is ear training, not memory. Do
you need to memorize 12 bar, three chord blues in every key? No,
because most of us can hear I IV and V. Most of us probably don't
think about memorizing blues changes -- because we can hear them
easily. Probably many of us can play, say, Autumn Leaves or Blue
Bossa in any key because the changes aren't too hard to hear. Stella
is tougher -- there's no easy way to remember all the changes and the
tonal shifts aren't as easy.
Typically, when I read tips for memorizing tunes, it focuses on that
kind of bandstand shorthand that people use to communicate changes.
Sometimes that works pretty well and you can memorize a tune that way.
But for other tunes, the method starts to break down. At that point,
it's whether you can translate the harmony you hear in your head to
the guitar without error.
I'm not very good at this, so my advice isn't worth much, but here's
an approach.
Practice until you can play the notes you hear in your mind. You can
think of melodies and then play them. This is a basic skill that all
jazz players need.
Then, apply that skill to the bass line of the tune you're trying to
play. At that point, you've got a shot at figuring out the root of the
chord you want. Then, if you can hear the difference between a major
and minor third and a major and minor seventh you can comp.
Rick
Mark Cleary
I too have a similar problem of sorts but my reason may be different. I
started to play the guitar entirely by reading music and learning to
read from day one. I never played by ear until later on by at least a
few years, and I started playing at 12 years old. What it did for me was
that I am a pretty fair reader but it may have hurt my ears because I
simply could read the melody faster than I could pick it up by ear.
I don't memorize tunes very well and forget them or parts of them all
the time. I don't gig these days so that does matter and when I was
playing I felt at the top of the world if I had charts. I still do not
memorize tunes well and if I don't keep playing them I forget.
I have a very good memory at least for some things and generally my
memory is famous for dates in history and things of that nature. When I
have to teach church history I can remember dates of many Saints and can
tell you the dates of things that are obscure to most. I don't why and
I still remember things like lifetime batting averages of famous
baseball players. I have not done anything with baseball in 25 years and
still have it right now. I know this is strange but I still cannot
memorize tunes without huge work. I can read a history book or a life of
someone and recall many events and dates long after, and never having
used the material since.
BTW, if I had to play Stella right now from memory I would get the
melody but forget some chord for sure. I also played in big bands most
of my real gigging time and they always had charts. I wonder if it just
has to do with the way our brains are wired. At 48 I actually think my
memory is still fine but names I do forget easier. To this day if I want
to learn a tune I don't know I like to read the chart before anything,
and that is back-assward for someone who likes jazz.
--
Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Roman Catholic Church
RB
Hey Rick, I think u hit the nail....It has zero to do w/ memory and
everything to do w being able to "hear" the song (ie the melody and
the chords that go w that) and then just following the song in yr head
and making what is "upstairs" come out of the horn.
I dont want to big note myself, but I can play any tune I know. even
if Ive never played it before. I just take dictation from the guy
upstairs. It isn't that big a deal, actually. And I just played Stella
in F, and it seemed fine....those name players are shucking man!!!
lukejazz
I also have a poor memory - not just when it comes to music.
One of the biggest things that has helped me has been having a regular
weekly gig. You can pick one or two songs and challenge yourself on
these tunes - I might do something like turn my book to one page
before the tune, that way if I did get into trouble, I might be able
to find the opportunity to quickly just turn the page.
Practice techniques for learning/memorizing tunes might include
learning the elements of each tune, that is to say - The chord
progression, the melody, a chord/melody arrangement, improv
techniques. My own personal shortcomings include learning some but
not all of those elements - so let's say I might be able to play a
chord melody arrangement, but am uncomfortable soloing without the
changes.
Also practicing playing through tunes in my head without the guitar in
my hands also helps to learn these different elements. In any case it
helps figure out just where I'm falling short on things.
Now I'm trying to keep a repertoire of about 75 tunes or so. I'm
deciding on set list ahead of time and review or work on learning the
songs I'm going to perform each week before the gig.
Having a regular weekly gig has been the key element to whatever
success I've had with that.
One time I was in a big band that played weekly for 12 weeks. After
about week 8 I was playing without the music (pretty easy
arrangements).
Just some ideas - good luck with all.
Lukejazz
www.lukejazz.com
bigdog
songs, but I find that playing in a sextet, I like to vary my chord
subs (just can't do it the same every time I guess) and the song
structure may vary when we play as a quartet vs a quintet, vs a
sextet. So my charts are full of notes and chord change
possibilities. Maybe unreadable to the rest of the band. But even
with things like autumn leaves, I like to have the chart there and I
think about alternatives as I play using the chart as a guide. Maybe
that's unfair to the audience, but I think it makes for better music.
David
Tim McNamara
<a7ece072-0ded-4a12...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
RB <richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
Umm, that actually *is* memory. Specifically procedural memory:
rpjazzguitar
through in a class situation -- you did something some well known pros
couldn't do. It didn't take them forever, but they didn't do it first
time thru.
The fact that you can play guitar tomorrow means that you've memorized
something, and much of that is procedural memory.
I guess the term can be used to describe the skill of being able to
remember a melody and a sound and find the chords without thinking.
But, when people talk about memorizing tunes this isn't what they
usually mean. It's closer to what people talk about as ear training --
which, obviously, could be described as a kind of memory function.
Dan Adler
I think the Pat Martino story pretty much proves that even what we
call "hearing" is a form of memory which you can lose or weaken with
age.
And even if you can "hear" stella, that doesn't mean you won't make a
mistake (as some of you do when you make tiipo's) and it doesn't mean
you won't have hesitation moments as you are forming your thoughts (as
even eloquent speakers often have in speeches, "uhh...", "umm...").
This is not pro vs. joe or anything like that. It's just human vs.
machine.
TD
Try not to let the left hemishere (read literature about the brain) of
the brain maintain all the control. The right side can do wonders when
unleashed, yet in concord with the left. We really do have two brains,
not just one. If you really want to achieve something, *you can* and
often at any age (if health in tact). Sight-reading tunes (while
playing the shit out of them) is an art that only a handful of
professionals have mastered, anyhow, but it can be done. Memorizing
tunes (as in repetoire) is a separate issue. *Being forced* to do
something, because of a deficit is yet a third issue. Learn to tear
things apart, bar by bar, inch by inch. Allow repetition into the mix.
I used to frown on repetition until I realized the beauty in it when
overseen by the right hemisphere. Hear the logic and familiarity
between all the standards ( if it was not already there, they would
not be standards in the first place) and follow the road map of the
basslines. And above all, master melody. While doing so try to make it
automatic to play fills in the spots where the melody is sparse or
empty. This can give you new insight into memorizing tunes, because
you may feel like when you are approaching these "freedom" spots in
the tune, you are giving yourself a biscuit. How can anyone forget
that?
-TD
guitarannie
got good.
I wasn't that good on Great American Songbook Standards although I
could sing them.
One day I sat down and figured out how to end a song strong.
Then it kinda all fell into place for me.
Yesterday I was playing bass but they wanted me to do something on
guitar.
So I called out I'm confessin'. I've played it maybe 400 times in
F. I ALWAYS play it in F. My I touched the d string instead of the g
and played a few notes while adjusted the volume and started playing
in C and after about 5 notes i realize it . The blind Pianist was in C
immediately, so was the accordianist. I had to tell the rythym
guitarist C. The horns are shaking their heads. So anyway I play the
head in C and then I tell piano-man "F!" I tell everyone ok guys your
key F coming up.
So we change keys to F and only one of them played in F. The other 3
played something pretty terrible. The stupid thing is I've never
played it in C before and the fingerings were different so I feel good
about that.
Next time i stay on bass and jut pick a good bass solo tune (HA! HA!
HA!)
"Pay The BASE Player"
SAS
rpjazzguitar
be better to approach it as an ear training exercise than to try to
learn specific changes. Apparently, procedural memory doesn't fade as
easily, which is how some guys can learn 1000+ tunes.
I find it fairly easy to remember melody without trying (and if I know
one, I can play it in any key without thinking), but I've never been
able to do it with chords. I can play some simple tunes in any key,
but as soon as the harmony gets more complex, I struggle. To the
extent that I've made any progress it's by learning the sound of
specific cadences, e.g. when a m7 goes up three half steps.
Rick Stone
All kinds of valid points have been brought up here, but it seems like
NOBODY has addressed a critical issue. HOW MUCH, HOW OFTEN, and for HOW
LONG do you play REGULARLY? (2 hours a day a couple times a week, 4
hours a day 7 days a week? etc.?)
I find this to be critical. I generally have no trouble remembering
standard jazz tunes, but those kinds of tunes tend to utilize the same
(or very similar) harmonic devices across most of the repertoire. I
usually practice one of these tunes for one long single practice
session, and maybe keep coming back to it for a few days and NEVER have
to think about it again (except for basic stuff like "what key is it in"
and "where does the bridge go"). You get to play these songs ALL the
time on gigs, and after a while you can play them in your sleep (I'm
pretty sure that I have at times). I probably "know" something like
500-1,000 of those (I qualify that because there are different levels of
"knowing." Many of them I'd be totally confident calling with my trio,
but MANY others I could easily play as an accompanist if somebody else
carries the melody.
Some of the more "modern" kinds of tunes, with less predictable chord
changes and melodies might take longer to learn. I was working on Bill
Evans "Very Early" and to get it memorized really solidly, it took about
a week. The first day I was reading it (for several hours). After that
I tried to play it by memory, and would only go back to look at the
paper if I had a mental block (and then only for a second and just the
part I forgot). I was still playing it for a while EVERY time I picked
up the guitar. I was also doing mental exercises, saying the chord
changes to myself in time (all the time! like when I'm lying in bed at
night, driving, eating dinner or watching tv!). You know; just thinking
"C, Bb7, Eb, Ab7, Db, G7, C, etc., etc.,) Wrote out my chord solo
(after I'd been playing it a bit) and taught it to several of my
students (nothing helps you learn something faster than teaching it).
Put it into Band-In-A-Box (the newer version with real instruments is
exponentially better than the midi sounds and WELL worth the $260 to
upgrade).
Then it's just a matter of PLAYING the tune. If it's not in my regular
repertoire and I don't play it for a month or so, I MAY forget parts of
it, but it won't take nearly the amount of effort to fill in the blanks
that it took to learn the tune initially.
I tend to write a lot of tunes like this, and only get to play them
maybe once or twice a month with my own group, so I find they take a bit
of maintenance away from the gig. And if I haven't played one for a
while, I'll definitely want to look at the music to remind myself.
Oddly, some tunes like "Giant Steps" I can just turn my brain off and
play. I think there's just some sort of "tipping point" and once you've
logged enough hours, days, months, years, on a tune, it can't leave you.
--
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: www.rickstone.com
epk: www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Other sites: www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
www.facebook.com/rickstonemusic www.reverbnation.com/rickstone
www.youtube.com/jazzand www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand jazzguitarny.ning.com
rpjazzguitar
for the rest of his life.
Most of us have to practice.
For myself, I find that I tend to forget chords to songs if I don't
play them regularly. I'm better with melody. There are some songs I
learned as a teenager which seem to be burned into my brain, but stuff
I've learned more recently doesn't seem to stick as well, chord wise.
drthoma...@gmail.com
> In article
> <a7ece072-0ded-4a12-9c47-395d8a39c...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
I would think of it as a musicianship problem, not a memory problem.
If you can hear Frank Sinatra singing the song in your head and get it
more or less right from beginning to end, then you have memorized the
song. Now if you still can't play it, that's due to lack of
musicianship, not lack of memory. It's a different problem than not
being able to remember the song at all.
If you can hear Sinatra singing the song in your head, but you still
have to memorize the chords to that song before you can play it, it's
not a memory problem. It's an ear training deficiency.
For a singable songbook standard, one shouldn't need to memorize chord
changes at all. For complex jazz compositions, I still need to
memorize chord changes, because my ear is not the greatest. But for
any standard Sinatra sings, if I can hear him in my head, I can figure
out the chords by ear. It only took me thirty years....
RB
> Hey Rick, I think u hit the nail....It has zero to do w/ memory and
> everything to do w being able to "hear" the song (ie the melody and
> the chords that go w that) and then just following the song in yr head
> and making what is "upstairs" come out of the horn.
> I dont want to big note myself, but I can play any tune I know. even
> if Ive never played it before. I just take dictation from the guy
> upstairs. It isn't that big a deal, actually. And I just played Stella
> in F, and it seemed fine....those name players are shucking man!!!
Wanted add a postscript: the skill I mentioned above is really no big
deal, and I want to emphasize that. If I can do it in my modest way,
then ANYONE can....
TD
> website:www.rickstone.com
> epk:www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
> Other sites:www.myspace.com/rickstonemusicwww.facebook.com/rickstonemusicwww.reverbnation.com/rickstonewww.youtube.com/jazzandwww.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand jazzguitarny.ning.com- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
"NOBODY has addressed a critical issue. HOW MUCH, HOW OFTEN, and for
HOW
LONG do you play REGULARLY?"
"Repetition", as I had stated prior, covers this waterfront. In fact,
the French word for rehearse is 'repetition.' I think it is good to
add any slant possible to repetition; the ear is a good start as some
one mentioned. Everyone is different just as everyone is the same. No
one size fits all. Personally, my ear is reinforced with an ability to
see each of the twelve tones its respective color. I guess this is a
right brain ability (or disability). A few years ago, I was invited to
Granada, Spain to perform and lecture ( my name has been mentioned in
a few books on Synesthesia, but not a big deal, 'cause I just wanna
blow, man) in front of an auditorium loaded with neuro-scientists for
the International Symposium on Synesthesia ( a rare ability to invoke
two or more senses simultaneously; as in some people "smell numbers or
taste letters"). I demonstrated a few ways in which I was able to
harness my phenomenon by helping students to *remember* (amongst other
ideas), as well as study musical data. I assign *my* colors to
students who have a problem with recall or also out and out dyslexia.
What really fascinated me was when my lecture was over, several
scientists came over to me and said, "You know for a moment, I really
understood music during your lecture." I speak of obstacles that need
to be overcome nd many times it only takes a moment to look at
something in a new way. This new way helps to recall many things.
-TD
Rick Stone
> "Repetition", as I had stated prior, covers this waterfront. In fact,
> the French word for rehearse is 'repetition.' I think it is good to
> add any slant possible to repetition; the ear is a good start as some
> one mentioned. Everyone is different just as everyone is the same. No
> one size fits all. Personally, my ear is reinforced with an ability to
> see each of the twelve tones its respective color. I guess this is a
> right brain ability (or disability). A few years ago, I was invited to
> Granada, Spain to perform and lecture ( my name has been mentioned in
> a few books on Synesthesia, but not a big deal, 'cause I just wanna
> blow, man) in front of an auditorium loaded with neuro-scientists for
> the International Symposium on Synesthesia ( a rare ability to invoke
> two or more senses simultaneously; as in some people "smell numbers or
> taste letters"). I demonstrated a few ways in which I was able to
> harness my phenomenon by helping students to *remember* (amongst other
> ideas), as well as study musical data. I assign *my* colors to
> students who have a problem with recall or also out and out dyslexia.
> What really fascinated me was when my lecture was over, several
> scientists came over to me and said, "You know for a moment, I really
> understood music during your lecture." I speak of obstacles that need
> to be overcome nd many times it only takes a moment to look at
> something in a new way. This new way helps to recall many things.
Yes, "repetition" IS very important. But it's not just the repetition,
but the timing of these repetitions that has a lot to do with how well
we absorb new information, as well as how MUCH we try to absorb at one
time. A lot of times people tend to bite off more than they can chew.
Better to MEMORIZE 8 bars of a tune than to have to read the whole thing
through every time.
And of course, I'd NEVER discount the importance of the ear! I'm amazed
when I ask a student to play a melody from memory and they start just
hunting around the instrument for the notes. I ALWAYS stress the
importance of HEARING (and even singing) the note first, before
attempting to play it. This one simple practice does wonders for you
connection with your instrument.
I don't see "colors" but I DO experience every note as a definite
physical sensation through my entire body. The interesting thing is
that I experience the note BEFORE it's played, so touching the guitar is
just the end result of a process that's already long underway. Don't
know if this is any sort of Synesthesia or not. I just kind of figured
that it was obvious and think that most musicians have this. I do get
frustrated when teaching people that don't seem to "feel" the music
though. It's easy to teach someone the notes, the scales, chords,
melodies, etc., but how can you teach someone who just doesn't seem to
"feel?"
-
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: www.rickstone.com
epk: www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
KenK
Classical players use it. Big Band players used it.
Salsa players read on stage as well.
I think it's some kind of macho competitive or regional thing that
says you can't use a fake book.
Maybe that's why the same tired ass 50 or so standards have been done
to death eh?
In the SF Bay Area you see fake books open all the time.
Even by some really fine players.
Granted, the tunes I don't need to read, I play better,
and I admit the book's become a bit of a crutch or safety net.
Fact is, I only need to see a few chords sometimes.
It's never an issue here cause everyone uses them all the time.
Whenever some smart ass chides me for needing to read some tune,
I just ask them if they know any number of tunes I know they don't
play.
That proves my point and shuts them up.
Ken
Dan Adler
Tony,
Is this a form of perfect pitch, i.e. associating a color sensation
with the frequency of the sound as we do in the visual domain or is
the use of color just a metaphor? I tried practicing the Burge color
hearing stuff for a while, and it did make me "experience" each sound
more deeply, but I never got anywhere near the point of instantaneous
Fourier transform. One thing I never understood about the whole color
hearing concept is what does octave displacement do to the color?
There is no concept of octaves in the visual domain...
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Nothing to do with Burge's trip, which I wrote to him about and
complained. I do dig his course on relative pitch and display it on my
website as a useful tool for anyone learning. In my view, his "pitch"
on "teaching" perfect pitch is jive. Forgive me David. Perfect pitch
cannot be taught. No, Synesthesia, which Burge actually mentions as
another thing, *is* totally different. The only similarity is that it
*also* cannot be taught. I actually see the color before or after I
hear the pitch, or at best simultaneously. It is just my freak thing,
is all. Although, I am told that Miles Davis had it and Jimi Hendrix
also had it (but that may have merely been too much window pane), as
well as Scriabin.
As far as octave displacement, it matters not to me (does not get in
the way of my freak scene, so to speak). It is the very cognizance of
the tone, that brings the color into my mind. The same "rule" applies
to chord quality. It is just the tonality or even the *notion* of
tonality. Or it can manifest itself of concerning tones within overall
tonality and vice versa. I often utilize it as a way to harness it in
my own learning and analyzing. If I want to teach a student one
popular source scale to draw criteria from concerning blowing over
A-7b5 for example ( Yet I never advocate learning how to blow over a
stagnant chord and leaving it like that), I may say, "Envision a white
table cloth in your mind's eye (I *realize* C as white and may assign
this color to tone for the student) with a blue vase sitting on top of
it." The blue vase represents A. C melodic minor scale system can be
an excellent source scale for blowing over A-7b5, as an example. But
by eliminating the *theory*, opinions, and such, just see the colors
to help aid the ear and thus the "intuition", which was Carl Jung's
way of describing one attribute of right brain usage. Thinking in a
new way is key. When and how much a guy wants to practice is
understood, if he is a musician to begin with.
Why this stuff? Because, we do not need to "negotiate" colors in our
mind. We just see them and know them simultaneously. Symbols usually
invoke an extra process. To me, applying colors for those who may need
such assistance (not for everyone), this helps to think, hear, and
know in a new way.
-TD
lukejazz
Hi Ken -
I don't think there's anything wrong "per se" with using music, but
for myself, and I think probably for others, it's more fun when I
don't have to. It helps me focus on other things better. I look at
the audience, I watch the other players, etc. I play both ways (with
and without) pretty frequently depending on what's going on and IMO
there are definitely advantages to both.
Lukejazz
Gerry
> What's wrong w/ just using sheet music?
You have to carry it around with you. When you change vocalists you
have to re-chart it. Sometimes it's a windy venue. The degree to
which you are concentrating on reading stated changes is also the
degree to which you are limited from re-inventing it for your own
purposes; e.g. improvising.
> Classical players use it. Big Band players used it.
> Salsa players read on stage as well.
> I think it's some kind of macho competitive or regional thing that
> says you can't use a fake book.
Big bands and salsa groups, by and large, don't "fake" tunes.
Classical players almost never do.
> Maybe that's why the same tired ass 50 or so standards have been done
> to death eh?
Quite possibly.
> In the SF Bay Area you see fake books open all the time.
> Even by some really fine players.
> Granted, the tunes I don't need to read, I play better,
> and I admit the book's become a bit of a crutch or safety net.
Okay then, that's one of the many potential answers to your question
above: "What's wrong w/ just using sheet music?
> Fact is, I only need to see a few chords sometimes.
> It's never an issue here cause everyone uses them all the time.
>
> Whenever some smart ass chides me for needing to read some tune,
> I just ask them if they know any number of tunes I know they don't
> play.
> That proves my point and shuts them up.
What was the point? That not everybody knows all tunes?
For me the problem is just one, the energy you spend going through a
eye-brain-hand process to produce a set of changes and/or melody is
time better spent in playing the tune instead. Think about an actor in
a performance circumstance. Don't you think they will do better by
internalizing the lines and character and then summoning it? Rather
than reading it off a page or off cue cards?
lukejazz
> website:www.rickstone.com
> epk:www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
> Other sites:www.myspace.com/rickstonemusicwww.facebook.com/rickstonemusicwww.reverbnation.com/rickstonewww.youtube.com/jazzandwww.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand jazzguitarny.ning.com
Rick -
I think you're right about the "tipping point". An interesting thing
though I think, is that there are some tunes that it seems like no
matter how many hundreds of times I play them I never hit the tipping
point, whereas others seem to reach it fairly quickly. I think some
tunes just "resonate" with me while others just may never.
Was it Charlie Parker who said something like - "I never play
something in public until I've practiced it a hundred times" ? But
then my memory could be failing me, ha ha.
Lukejazz
Sean A. Day
itself is, per its name, a genetically-based neuronal condition. It
can’t be taught. Nor can perfect pitch. I suggest material by Daniel
Levitin, including his book *This is your brain on music*. However,
while absolute pitch cannot be taught, one can – potentially -- learn
relative pitch to an extremely high-skilled degree; I myself took
college-level training courses in this, but, being partially deaf at
that time to begin with, never got beyond the most rudimentary of
skills.
However, as TD points out, the basic concepts of relating specific
aspects of music to specific aspects of color can be taught, and this
can facilitate new directions in manipulating music, or color, and,
ultimately, both in unity.
As to octaves – this type of synesthesia of specific musical note to
specific color does not involve a direct transformation of the sound
frequency to the color, but, rather, a transformation of the
*conceptualization* / *interpretation* of the note into a perception
of color. It just seems like this is a direct transformation because
the brain works so fast to create the interpretation, managing it
within about 7 or so thousandths of a second after the initial base-
level sound signals hit the initial, primary auditory processor parts
of the brain.
As an aside, I will point out that there is conclusive evidence
Scriabin was not a congenital synesthete. He was just a “wannabe”.
As to Miles Davis and Jimi Hendrix, as yet we’ve too little
information to make any statement one way or the other. My guess
regarding Davis and Hendrix is that people just assume they were,
because it “just seems so right” or “so obvious”, without any evidence
to base this upon.
Sean A. Day
Dan Adler
So, if all this can't be taught, why is it worth talking about for
those who don't have it?
Looks like an interesting book, especially since the amazon "look
inside" reveals an index entry for: "Bibbidy Bobbidy Boo"...
DanielleOM
"KenK" <reptil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:638835cd-4455-4a3f...@b25g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
I keep wondering if am looking at chord arrangments that are much more
complex than necessary. For the most part I am playing chords from the
Chuck Sher New Real or Standards books with 4 note voicings I learned from
the old Mel Bay Orchestral chord system. (Now called rhythm system). I
find a spend a lot of time thinking about the right voicings that will work
even when just playing rhythm.
I see a local player that's being playing standard rhythm for years that
always has music in front of him. He always sounds good and I would swear
he's using the 1/2 the voicings that I use.
I find it difficult to just have a book there for back up. If I am not
following along in the book measure by measure, I can not quickly find my
place on the page quickly enough when I want a reminder. I'm also find it
more difficult to see things. I love those big ink font chord fonts.
All of the tunes I play have lyrics to them. I find I have to have the
lyric running through my head at all times. Without the lyric line running
through me head I find I quickly lose my place.
Danielle
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Synesthesia in and of itself, per se, cannot be "taught." I have had
great results in *assigning" my colors to students who have displayed
various learning and assimilation problems. Like relative pitch,
relative color. When some of them "got into it", they were able to
assign and *memorize* color-to-note techniques to replace or enhance
symbol-to-note techniques. Good results came to me particularly when
teaching a few guys, for example who have dyslexia into the ozone. One
fellow could NOT recall Bbmaj7, but he knew of "burgundy major7",
which for him is the same chord. By learning a few bars of a tune at a
time and replacing the chord changes with colors, they retained total
recall of the tune long after the studys inception. Melody can be
learned in a similar way, if needed. In this manner, it is worth it
for me to talk about according to the OP who has a problem recalling
tunes. No big deal.
-TD
Sean A. Day
who don't have it?”
Well, for about the same reason it is useful to talk about the jazz
styles of the 1930’s, even though you (most likely) did not perform in
any jazz combos during that decade.
The difference between actually experiencing something yourself
perceptually, through which you may – or may not(!) – glean knowledge
which you may choose to then attempt to convey to others (such as by
new ideas in jazz), versus learning about something you yourself will
never experience directly but can use conceptually in building new
ideas.
*Being* a synesthete cannot be taught, just as *being* someone who
actually lived and played jazz in the 1930’s cannot be taught to
someone today. However, synesthetic relationships and interpretative
methodologies can be taught, just as the music, styles, and techniques
of the 1930’s groups can be taught. You can’t and never will *be* a
1930’s jazz musician; but you can learn enough about them – how they
did what they did and why – to make yourself a new type of 2010
musician.
KenK
Hi Gerry-
I agree w/ most of what you say here.
but-
"For me the problem is just one, the energy you spend going through a
eye-brain-hand process to produce a set of changes and/or melody is
time better spent in playing the tune instead."
I've been lucky enough to get called by players who are more
experienced then me, (from a different generation) or just have a
different root history than I.
So they call tunes I may never have heard much less played.
So it's much better to read the unknown tune than fumble through it,
or say I can't do it.
As to reading a tune cold on a gig- I do it all the time.
It's just a skill that be developed if you want it.
I also like the challenge of doing new stuff on the spot.
Ken
pmfan57
>
> read more »
Right. Hendrix, and many followers of the Grateful Dead, developed
this ability through, well, you know.
I saw a Nova program about people with unusual abilities, one of which
being synesthesia. Some researchers brought together a few such
people and they were asking each other things like "oh, and what does
green smell like to you?"
rpjazzguitar
Having to read a jazz tune won't matter much if the other band members
aren't listening to each other very well. But, with better attuned
players, it makes a big difference. If you don't have to think about
the changes, you can be more interactive with the group.
I completely agree with the comment that "memorizing" tunes is
substantially an issue of ear training. Once you can hear Sinatra
singing the tune in your mind, it's no longer memory (except in a
technical sense). Rather, as the other poster said, it's your ability
to make it happen on the guitar. If you can't do that, you can still
memorize the tune with a lot of work, but it's not the same thing.
Also, memorizing the tune without really being able to hear the
harmony won't help you much when the piano player starts changing the
harmony on the fly. The better players can hear it, know what it is
and keep up.
Based on my own experience, I think that the ability to do it with
melody is different than the ability to do it with chords. I say that
because I can do one quite easily and struggle with the other.
Also, based on my own experience, it is possible to be able to play
things without having any language to describe it. For years, I've
been able to play any melody I know in any key anywhere on the neck
without thinking (well, I sometimes miss big jumps). But, when I
decided that it was important to be able to name the notes, I was
largely lost. I've been working on it (and the effort has helped) but
I still sometimes find it helpful to think about the fretboard, and
even move my fingers, as I try to figure out the notes of something
I'm humming. No colors or anything. I can't explain how or why it
works.
Something I've been wondering about -- when a pianist comps it's
usually a mix of single notes, chords and fragments of chords. When a
guitar player comps (not Jim Hall), it's often a sequence of grips. In
fact, it's easier, I think, to do it the piano way. If you don't know
exactly what the next chord is, you may be able to find a note or two,
play them, and then find the rest as intervals from the notes you
knew.
Dan Adler
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Synesthesia in and of itself, per se, cannot be "taught." I have had
> great results in *assigning" my colors to students who have displayed
> various learning and assimilation problems. Like relative pitch,
> relative color. When some of them "got into it", they were able to
> assign and *memorize* color-to-note techniques to replace or enhance
> symbol-to-note techniques. Good results came to me particularly when
> teaching a few guys, for example who have dyslexia into the ozone. One
> fellow could NOT recall Bbmaj7, but he knew of "burgundy major7",
> which for him is the same chord. By learning a few bars of a tune at a
> time and replacing the chord changes with colors, they retained total
> recall of the tune long after the studys inception. Melody can be
> learned in a similar way, if needed. In this manner, it is worth it
> for me to talk about according to the OP who has a problem recalling
> tunes. No big deal.
>
> -TD
I think it's fascinating to see the spectrum of ways in which people's
internal representation of music varies. I guess in your case it is
not a metaphor or association, but rather a real sensory perception.
The fact that you can "project" your representation to a student is
fascinating in itself, though I suspect for the student it never
becomes a sensory experience but remains a conscious association.
Still, the fact that it's helpful to others probably shows that there
is some flexibility in the representation, just like there is a huge
difference between how jazz musicians internally represent music and
how classical players represent it.
Russ
> As an aside, I will point out that there is conclusive evidence
> Scriabin was not a congenital synesthete. He was just a “wannabe”.
> As to Miles Davis and Jimi Hendrix, as yet we’ve too little
> information to make any statement one way or the other. My guess
> regarding Davis and Hendrix is that people just assume they were,
> because it “just seems so right” or “so obvious”, without any evidence
> to base this upon.
>
> Sean A. Day
I think there is ample evidence that Miles Davis did indeed exhibit
qualities of being a synesthete. It is said that he associated the
color "green" with all twelve tones, a phenomena that may have been
more useful at the end of the gig..... ;-)
Bg
wrote:
> "KenK" <reptilesph...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> through me head I find I quickly lose my place.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Danielle, you have to learn to hear the tune in 4 bar or 8 Bar
sections, so that you know how many bars have passed and to be aware
of it at all times. It's not at all hard to hear in that way. Most
standards are in 4 x 8 Bar group(or 2 x 16) and 3 of the groups can
be almost the same with the bridge section being different.
That's much easier to hear sections than one measure at a time.
Bg
Rick Stone
> Rick -
> I think you're right about the "tipping point". An interesting thing
> though I think, is that there are some tunes that it seems like no
> matter how many hundreds of times I play them I never hit the tipping
> point, whereas others seem to reach it fairly quickly. I think some
> tunes just "resonate" with me while others just may never.
>
> Was it Charlie Parker who said something like - "I never play
> something in public until I've practiced it a hundred times" ? But
> then my memory could be failing me, ha ha.
Luke,
I think that "how long" or "how many repetitions" depends TOTALLY on
what kind of tune it is, and how similar/dis-similar it is to other
tunes you already know. For instance, once you know "There Will Never
Be Another You" it takes maybe only one listen before you can play
"Weaver of Dreams," "Be My Love" or "I'll Close My Eyes." Those songs
are just a few examples. Lots of tunes are made from "parts" that we
know well and have been recycled thousands of times. Others have some
twists and turns that take a lot longer to master. I think you just
have to play them until they're like well-worn paths, and if the tune is
really different than other tunes you know, then this DEFINITELY doesn't
happen in one session. I know it took me YEARS of persistent (although
not "daily") practice to master "Giant Steps" to the point where I no
longer even think about the changes, they just sort of "happen." By
contrast, Bill Evans "Very Early" is a tune that I played a little about
15 years ago, and then didn't touch for a long time. I'm finding that
one requires a lot more "thinking" on my part, so I just throw it into
the mix of stuff that I'm practicing and try to remember to PLAY it
every day, even if only for a little while.
Of course the trick is to REMEMBER to PLAY them, because as you know
more and more tunes, it's kind of like juggling.
--
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: www.rickstone.com
epk: www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
drthoma...@gmail.com
>
> I think that "how long" or "how many repetitions" depends TOTALLY on
> what kind of tune it is, and how similar/dis-similar it is to other
> tunes you already know. For instance, once you know "There Will Never
> Be Another You" it takes maybe only one listen before you can play
> "Weaver of Dreams," "Be My Love" or "I'll Close My Eyes." Those songs
> are just a few examples.
I know "There Will Never Be Another You" but not those other three.
More common cognates for the opening passage are Bird blues,
Confirmation, Georgia, etc. Although the harmonic rhythm might change,
it's still the same or very similar chord progression.
Rick Stone
Interesting since those are all pretty popular standards. Yeah,
Georgia's the same thing to of course (up to a point) but the ones I
mentioned are MUCH closer. They're all based on a chromatic rising
inner voice starting on the 5th (in "F" that would be C, C#, D, Eb).
That line in a ton of songs; "Deep in a Dream" is another that just
popped into my head (if we're not worried about the harmonic rhythm).
Keith Freeman
memorization/hearing skills, there is an excellent tool that just got even
better: Lego Bricks. John Elliott (on the google Lego Bricks group) has
just published a systematic guide to the system, including analyses of 200
standards and a learning schedule that enables you to gradually build up
your brick repertoire and song repertoire at the same time. The book (a
searchable pdf) is at
www.dropback.co.uk
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, and even though it can be never ( I hate saying never) 'sensory'
in a sense, anything repeated long enough can become at least *second
nature*, a reasonable facsimile for the musician. Invoking more senses
( besides listening to the masters) in the process can't hurt, while
deliberately seeking out the logic in most tunes, standard or
otherwise only enhances the process. Cycles and cyclic activity is a
"key" ingredient and should never be overlooked concerning memorizing,
scanning, and navigating.
-TD
pmfan57
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Yes, and even though it can be never ( I hate saying never) 'sensory'
> in a sense, anything repeated long enough can become at least *second
> nature*, a reasonable facsimile for the musician. Invoking more senses
> ( besides listening to the masters) in the process can't hurt, while
> deliberately seeking out the logic in most tunes, standard or
> otherwise only enhances the process. Cycles and cyclic activity is a
> "key" ingredient and should never be overlooked concerning memorizing,
> scanning, and navigating.
>
> -TD
As I recall, Scriabin envisioned (pardon the expression) using perfume
organs to send out smells to the audience during performances of his
work.
TD
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Yes, and even though it can be never ( I hate saying never) 'sensory'
> > in a sense, anything repeated long enough can become at least *second
> > nature*, a reasonable facsimile for the musician. Invoking more senses
> > ( besides listening to the masters) in the process can't hurt, while
> > deliberately seeking out the logic in most tunes, standard or
> > otherwise only enhances the process. Cycles and cyclic activity is a
> > "key" ingredient and should never be overlooked concerning memorizing,
> > scanning, and navigating.
>
> > -TD
>
> As I recall, Scriabin envisioned (pardon the expression) using perfume
> organs to send out smells to the audience during performances of his
>
> - Show quoted text -
I won't (pardon the expression) touch that.
sheetsofsound
> On Nov 27, 9:26 am, rpjazzguitar <rpjazzgui...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Most of us can probably hum the melody to a great many tunes -- and
> > could tell if somebody played the wrong chords. This would indicate, I
> > think, that our memories are functioning.
>
> > But, only some of us can use that knowledge to play any of those tunes
> > in any key on the fly. Many musicians memorize a tune in a particular
> > key and will struggle if the tune is called in a different key.
>
> > I was in a class a few years back where the teacher started playing
> > Stella in F, not the usual Bb. Two of the students were well known
> > players whose names you would know. One of them got it in a chorus or
> > two. Another took several choruses. The teacher, a Brazilian guitarist
> > who doesn't read, probably had no idea he was playing it in an unusual
> > key. I heard him backing up singers on other tunes and he didn't seem
> > to care what key they wanted. The wedding musicians of my youth
> > probably wouldn't have even stopped looking bored when they switched
> > keys.
>
> > The better musicians can hear the cadences of chords and find them on
> > the instrument without difficulty. I'd guess, because I don't have
> > data on this, that those are the guys who know a zillion tunes and can
> > play in any key. My point is that this is ear training, not memory. Do
> > you need to memorize 12 bar, three chord blues in every key? No,
> > because most of us can hear I IV and V. Most of us probably don't
> > think about memorizing blues changes -- because we can hear them
> > easily. Probably many of us can play, say, Autumn Leaves or Blue
> > Bossa in any key because the changes aren't too hard to hear. Stella
> > is tougher -- there's no easy way to remember all the changes and the
> > tonal shifts aren't as easy.
>
> > Typically, when I read tips for memorizing tunes, it focuses on that
> > kind of bandstand shorthand that people use to communicate changes.
> > Sometimes that works pretty well and you can memorize a tune that way.
> > But for other tunes, the method starts to break down. At that point,
> > it's whether you can translate the harmony you hear in your head to
> > the guitar without error.
>
> > I'm not very good at this, so my advice isn't worth much, but here's
> > an approach.
>
> > Practice until you can play the notes you hear in your mind. You can
> > think of melodies and then play them. This is a basic skill that all
> > jazz players need.
>
> > Then, apply that skill to the bass line of the tune you're trying to
> > play. At that point, you've got a shot at figuring out the root of the
> > chord you want. Then, if you can hear the difference between a major
> > and minor third and a major and minor seventh you can comp.
>
> > Rick
>
> Hey Rick, I think u hit the nail....It has zero to do w/ memory and
> everything to do w being able to "hear" the song (ie the melody and
> the chords that go w that) and then just following the song in yr head
> and making what is "upstairs" come out of the horn.
> I dont want to big note myself, but I can play any tune I know. even
> if Ive never played it before. I just take dictation from the guy
> upstairs. It isn't that big a deal, actually. And I just played Stella
> in F, and it seemed fine....those name players are shucking man!!!
but stage fright overrides any of that. I did a solo concert last
weekend with a couple hundred people in the audience. Few of them had
any clue the complexity of any of the music and there was no rational
reason for me to be afraid but I did get nervous and surprisingly, I
forgot how to play one of the pieces. I'm right in the middle of a
tune I've played 500 times and it just escaped me. Fortunately, I've
been playing long enough that I was able to segue into something else
very quickly but it caused the adrenaline to rush and made the next
few songs bad as well. It can happen to anyone I think...
edspyhill01
The first time I played classical guitar in front of an audience my RH
fingers got caught in the strings. Adrenaline makes us able to do one
thing good, run like hell
Greger Hoel
> Personally, my ear is reinforced with an ability to
> see each of the twelve tones its respective color. I guess this is a
> right brain ability (or disability).
Is G red to you?
--
Always cross a vampire; never moon a werewolf
KenK
Hey Keith-
Looks kinda interesting.
Have you used it or know anyone who has?
I'm sure lots of us have a somewhat similar system, but w/ different
or w/o terminology.
I look at things in "blocks" like that, keeping various chord
progression formulas in mind.
One of my memory techniques is to memorize the 1st A then the B.
Then I just try to remember only what's different about the 2nd and
last A's.
Can't claim that it's especially effective, it's just what I do.
Ken
TD
> På Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:34:19 +0100, skrev TD <tonydecap...@gmail.com>:
>
> > Personally, my ear is reinforced with an ability to
> > see each of the twelve tones its respective color. I guess this is a
> > right brain ability (or disability).
>
> Is G red to you?
>
> --
> Always cross a vampire; never moon a werewolf
Ironically Green. Is it red to you?
-TD
Keith Freeman
Having followed (and contributed to) the discussions on the google Lego
Bricks group I had come to the conclusion that it wasn't as simple as I had
at first thought and therefore given up on the idea of being able to play
anything in any key. John's methodical approach (and the new bricks he and
others have come up with) gives me hope that I can get more out of it.
pmfan57
Is it strictly a matter of absolute frequency? I assume in the old
days of A being lower than 440, the green would be associated with a
different note. I know the question sounds dumb, but I don't know to
what extent this gift is affected by environment, i.e., the modern
musical environment in which A is usually 440, in which a musician
grows up.
Gerry
> I'm sure lots of us have a somewhat similar system, but w/ different
> or w/o terminology.
> I look at things in "blocks" like that, keeping various chord
> progression formulas in mind.
>
> One of my memory techniques is to memorize the 1st A then the B.
That was easy!
> Then I just try to remember only what's different about the 2nd and
> last A's.
My technique is to memorize the A and the B. At that point the tune is
memorized.
For me, retention is the problem.
> Can't claim that it's especially effective, it's just what I do.
Gerry
> I'm in the process of learning it. At the moment I just use bits of it.
>
> Having followed (and contributed to) the discussions on the google Lego
> Bricks group I had come to the conclusion that it wasn't as simple as I had
> at first thought and therefore given up on the idea of being able to play
> anything in any key. John's methodical approach (and the new bricks he and
> others have come up with) gives me hope that I can get more out of it.
I note on the web page you are an "endorser":
> 'I reckon pp. 11-13 on Building from the Ground Up are worth the price
> alone!' Keith Freeman
I'm a sucker for these kinds of things (potential Rosetta stones, or
Rosetta "gravel") and will likely get it. But one of my difficulties in
memorization is not just the changes, but the integrated memorization
of both changes and *complete and accurate* melody as a whole single
construct.
I can easily abstract the changes, and remember the relationships
rather than specific fingerings and such. But the melody seems to
demand a memory not only for the line (which I can frequently sing) but
of completely non-fumbled access to fingerings. I guess right about
80-85% of the material, which can still leave quite a few clams, or
apparent "neighboring" or "approach" tones. ;-)
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
I do not know if it is a "gift" and it has nothing directly to do with
sound (although not so sure) for me. It is probably closer a glorified
defect, at least since I have put it to good use. It has to do with
*cognizance* of what is sounded or what is intended to, what was, or
will be sounded. There is no logic to the color associations, at least
not superficially. Sound ( pitch, fequency, notes, scales, chords et
al, is merely parallel in nature) is a coincidence. Although, it may
not be. I ain't that hip to really know. It almost makes me consider
sound itself to be merely a dimension within dimensions as part of a
more universal gestalt. Everyone who has the same or similar
Synesthesia sees different colors for the same item (although some
overlap). One man's green can be another man's red. I only brought
this shit up for the OP, because some people are able to realize
("feel and sense") things in life deeper than they are usually
presented or appeared. I personally believe there is truth to that. I
just wanna blow, man.
-TD
Greger Hoel
> Ironically Green. Is it red to you?
It doesn't seem like quite the same thing you have. I wouldn't associate
one note with one colour, I think. But there are times when I seem to
associate a very vague sense of a colour that's sort of reddish to a piece
of music. When I then pick up my guitar, the music is always in the key of
G. Ah well, maybe I'm colourblind. Other times, I see shades of the same
colour in my mind's eye, when I listen to music. E.g shades of red that
morphs to whitish and back again.
Green, OTOH, I associate with a certain timbral quality, not pitches. A
V-curved (if you picture settings on a graphic equalizer), very clean
sound.
damonseed
do you smoke pot? Its a big problem with bass players here..not pot
consumption but memory losss....maybe its a contributing factor???
Sheet music is cool ...if its cool for David Bowie its cool wit me
hmmm remedy?...more herb??......
damonseed
> On 2009-11-26 09:27:55 -0800, "Patrick L" <itsab...@time.com> said:
>
> > I've got poor short term memory. My muscle memory works sometimes, but
> > it is not reliable ( I also get stage fright and this can obliterate my
> > muscle memory -- I've played on gigs where my mind just blanked, and
> > the song was gone, very embarrassing having to start the tune over in
> > the middle of the song --, which is more of a problem with solo playing
> > ). I can remember about 20 songs, and if I try to learn song number
> > 21, it won't stay in my brain.
>
> musical performance difficulties. They may well not be connected. You
> may have some medical/brain/memory problems about which none of us can
> really be relied upon to help you with. Assuming the problems is the
> average ones then:
>
> > It will, or it might, if I practice the tune for about six months, and
> > at that rate, I'll never acquire a repertoire sufficient to solo gig.
>
> play it daily for three weeks (21 days in a row), chances are that if
> you don't play it for 3 months, you'll still remember it. Maxwell
> Maltz, among others has pointed out that habits, real habits, take time
> to break or to "set". 21 days is the period of time that amputees
> generally continue to have "phantom pain", itching and other ghost
> responses from the now-missing limbs. Etc.
>
> In lessons with Barry Galbraith he asked if I knew a tune, I said yes I
> did, but I had forgotten it. You never knew it, was his response. If
> you really learn a tune, it doesn't go away. That was his
> pronouncement. I believe it's true.
>
> > But, I could do okay with sheet music in front of me, because I sight
> > read very well, and I've gigged on solo chord melody type gigs before,
> > doing it this way, and so that is a solution, but that is not the only
> > problem.
>
> say it is a great way to avoid memorizing tunes. Reading is not
> memorization. Memorization is memorization. I've read lots of plays
> but have only memorized lines for a dozen or so. And forgetting a line
> on stage happened about twice in my lifetime, on both occasions I got
> out of bed with a cold to do the performance.
>
> Similarly playing a tune is not memorizing it. It can certainly help
> in memorizing it by reinforcing your "flight path". For many months I
> played "There's a Time For Us" occasionally while sitting on the couch.
> But when I got to the bridge, or the highly modified repetition of the
> A section, I'd always screw it up--I'd never actuallly learned it.
> After a year of this I sat down and learned it more carefully and did
> it a number times. Two months later it was gone again!
>
> All the times I had goofed it up were set in my brain alongside the
> 8-10 times I had done it right. The score was 150 to 10. I lose.
> Repetition of anything--including a screwed up B section, a bad
> fingering a wrong chord, serves to fix in one's memory as rapidly--or
> not--as anything else.
>
> > For playing with others, if I have no sheet music in front of me, I
> > can't remember the chords or hold the progression in my head without
> > sheet music, and so I lose my place in the chord stream when soloing.
>
> usually means you aren't really "tracking" the changes as you proceed
> through the tune, or you aren't listening to the other players. Both
> can be addressed by listening more and playing with others more
> frequently.
>
> > One solution is just to play easy songs like Summertime, Comin' Home
> > Baby, etc., but most musicians do want to play more challenging
> > tunes, and I should not be there holding other guys back, making them
> > do only the tunes that I can play without having to rely on sheet
> > music. I can gig with sheet music, but I feel like a loser being the
> > guy who has to have sheet music in front of him all the time.
>
> night. But whether you feel like a loser or not is your problem; one
> of self-perception, not really a problem of memory, performance or
> anything else.
>
> > That being said, I watched a Peter Sprague concert a few days back (
> > what a player! ), and he had sheet music in front of him ( though he is
> > playing a lot of not-your-usual-standards ), so I guess my concern is
> > unfounded,
>
> music in front of you makes you feel like a loser? Cool, that problem
> can be set aside. But I still think that addressing the actual
> *memorization* of tunes is worthwhile to address.
>
> > so my question is what do you say about players who require sheet music
> > in front of them in order to play? What is the general consensus on
> > this?
>
> nor bad. It's bad if the sheet-music stand gets knocked-over. Then
> you'll look and sound like an incompetent, I suppose. Also, over time,
> you won't have accrued a solid backlog of pieces on which you are
> "accomplished".
>
> In a book on learning to play the piano (for beginners), the author
> says you should always have 2 or three tunes at the read if you happen
> to encounter a piano and others, knowing you are studying, ask you to
> perform. *Always* have a few tunes you feel comfortable playing.
> Obviously these would be tunes you've memorized. I think the same
> should be said for every guitarist. If somebody hands you a guitar and
> says "play something", you should have a few tunes ready to
> demonstrate, to some degree, your level of skill.
>
> For a professional player the same thing could be said as well, except
> that the pro should be able to do a set or two without any pre-prep.
>
> > Also, I'm wondering if there is any meds, or alt med route to cure it.
>
> --
> Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
You really should have a set or two to do on the fly...just in
case...well said Gerry!
best
d
Chickenhead
I rarely hear songs/recordings beginning to end in my head. Instead, I
usually get bits and pieces and even out of order on occasion.
drthoma...@gmail.com
It helps me to learn the lyrics. Listening to Sinatra is a good way to
do it, but then if you're like me, you'll wind up harmonizing
everything like Nelson Riddle whenever you go to play a song you
learned off a Sinatra record.
drthoma...@gmail.com
>
> Everyone who has the same or similar
> Synesthesia sees different colors for the same item (although some
> overlap). One man's green can be another man's red.
You've reminded me of an orchestrating class I had with Lalo Schifrin
as a guest lecturer. He asked us to score the color orange, and then
walked around the room critiquing our work, saying things like:
"That's not orange, it's chartreuse."
drthoma...@gmail.com
It looks like an unnecessarily complexified version of what Rick and I
were discussing above. I think the mental energy required to learn all
that new terminology and system would be put to better use just
learning more songs. The theory behind these cognate chord
progressions doesn't need to take more than a few paragraphs to
explain. That's why I say this method seems unecessarily complex.
Or perhaps I'm just a Philistine who can't appreciate a good thing
when I see it.
Gerry
> do you smoke pot? Its a big problem with bass players here..not pot
> consumption but memory losss....maybe its a contributing factor???
> Sheet music is cool ...if its cool for David Bowie its cool wit me...
So a gay tryst with Elton John would be cool with you too?
> hmmm remedy?...more herb??......
I'd need a lot of herb to go to bed with Elton John.
Rick Stone
> but stage fright overrides any of that. I did a solo concert last
> weekend with a couple hundred people in the audience. Few of them had
> any clue the complexity of any of the music and there was no rational
> reason for me to be afraid but I did get nervous and surprisingly, I
> forgot how to play one of the pieces. I'm right in the middle of a
> tune I've played 500 times and it just escaped me. Fortunately, I've
> been playing long enough that I was able to segue into something else
> very quickly but it caused the adrenaline to rush and made the next
> few songs bad as well. It can happen to anyone I think...
Yep, we all have (and fear) those moments. Interestingly, I find it
easier to play in a noisy restaurant where nobody's listening, than in a
concert where people actually are there to hear me.
Oh well. Just comes with the turf.
Gerry
>
> sheetsofsound wrote:
>> but stage fright overrides any of that. I did a solo concert last
>> weekend with a couple hundred people in the audience. Few of them had
>> any clue the complexity of any of the music and there was no rational
>> reason for me to be afraid but I did get nervous and surprisingly, I
>> forgot how to play one of the pieces. I'm right in the middle of a
>> tune I've played 500 times and it just escaped me. Fortunately, I've
>> been playing long enough that I was able to segue into something else
>> very quickly but it caused the adrenaline to rush and made the next
>> few songs bad as well. It can happen to anyone I think...
>
> Yep, we all have (and fear) those moments. Interestingly, I find it
> easier to play in a noisy restaurant where nobody's listening, than in a
> concert where people actually are there to hear me.
>
> Oh well. Just comes with the turf.
In similar fashion, the larger the crowd the less exposed and
vulnerable I feel on stage. And therefore have more opportunity to
started thinking about myself rather than the music, which for me is a
deadly distraction. When I can see all the faces of an audience of 50
that's more distracting than if it's 500. If the stage lighting keeps
me from clearly seeing the audience, so much the better.
Rick Stone
> I can easily abstract the changes, and remember the relationships rather
> than specific fingerings and such. But the melody seems to demand a
> memory not only for the line (which I can frequently sing) but of
> completely non-fumbled access to fingerings. I guess right about 80-85%
> of the material, which can still leave quite a few clams, or apparent
> "neighboring" or "approach" tones. ;-)
Learning the melody is the MOST important thing when learning a new
tune. It always amazes me that folks try to jump past this important
step FAR to quick to get to the "good" stuff (people want to improvise
before they really know the tune, and this just leads to a bunch of
aimless meandering and noodling).
As I've said MANY time, here's the sequence I've found to be MOST
effective when learning a new tune.
1) Learn the LYRICS (I know it's not always possible to do this first,
but when you can, it makes everything else SO much easier).
2) Play the melody, play the melody, play the melody! (and did I
remember to say PLAY THE MELODY!) Play it in a bunch of different
positions in the original key whenever possible. Sing it using note
names, solfege, numbers (or all three). Play it through all keys in a
single position. Play it on the first two strings (up and down the
neck), etc.
3) Listen to which melody notes seem to demand a chord, and find good
voicings to support them. Work the song out as an arrangement, melody
with chords.
4) Figure out the BASIC changes to the tune and RECITE them in TIME
until you know EXACTLY when and where each chord happens in the tune.
5) Play the chords by themselves and work out some pleasing comping
voicings. Try things like linear comping (voice-leading the top note in
a single direction), using common tones in the lead voice while changing
the chords, etc. This is fun and you can spend a bunch of time on this!
6) Run arpeggios of the chords. You can also do this directionally.
Try starting with half-notes and playing only chord tones, moving to the
next good chord tone when the chords change, but maintaining the
direction of the line. After half-notes, do this with quarter notes,
and then eighth-notes. Try triplets. Then try free-style, concentrating
more on rhythms, but sticking with chord tones.
7) Transcribe somebody's solo on the tune. Learn and memorize it!
8) Compose your own solo on the tune. Learn and memorize it!
9) Listen to a lot of recordings of the tune. When you hear somebody
doing something you like, learn it!
10) Play the tune a lot with other people.
I'm sure I've forgotten something, but you get the idea.
--
Rick Stone
Rick Stone
> It looks like an unnecessarily complexified version of what Rick and I
> were discussing above. I think the mental energy required to learn all
> that new terminology and system would be put to better use just
> learning more songs. The theory behind these cognate chord
> progressions doesn't need to take more than a few paragraphs to
> explain. That's why I say this method seems unecessarily complex.
>
> Or perhaps I'm just a Philistine who can't appreciate a good thing
> when I see it.
"Complexified?" Good word. It deserves to be right up there with
"Complimicated." :-)
I did check out the method though, and it looks interesting. I've used
that kind of thinking myself, and even have names for a bunch of (but
not all of) these "Building Block" progressions (that's what I always
called them). I do find it kind of cool that he's come up with names
for so many of them. Naming things IS after all one of the ways that we
remember! Consider that you have VERY few (often NO) recollections of
your life before you learned to speak.
I'm considering picking up the book. After all, if a book has even a
SINGLE new idea that you can use, doesn't that EASILY justify the cost?
Remember, time is a FAR more precious commodity than money. As I
recently read on somebody's blog "We ALL have an expiration date."
--
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
Keith Freeman
> for so many of them. Naming things IS after all one of the ways that we
> remember!
and then reproduce it in another key.
> 3) Listen to which melody notes seem to demand a chord, and find good
> voicings to support them. Work the song out as an arrangement, melody
> with chords.
Your summary is good. I would add: once you've learned the melody, memorize
the intervals between the main melody notes (where the chord changes) and
their roots.
drthoma...@gmail.com
>
> "Complexified?" Good word. It deserves to be right up there with
> "Complimicated."
At least you didn't disconstroodle my fortention.
Dr Jazz
wrote:
> On Nov 26, 11:35 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <a7ece072-0ded-4a12-9c47-395d8a39c...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedural_memory-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> If you can hear Frank Sinatra singing the song in your head and get it
> more or less right from beginning to end, then you have memorized the
> song. Now if you still can't play it, that's due to lack of
> musicianship, not lack of memory. It's a different problem than not
> being able to remember the song at all.
>
> If you can hear Sinatra singing the song in your head, but you still
> have to memorize the chords to that song before you can play it, it's
> not a memory problem. It's an ear training deficiency.
>
> For a singable songbook standard, one shouldn't need to memorize chord
> changes at all. For complex jazz compositions, I still need to
> memorize chord changes, because my ear is not the greatest. But for
> any standard Sinatra sings, if I can hear him in my head, I can figure
> out the chords by ear. It only took me thirty years....
Guys
Thought you might be interested in my book that addresses this issue
head on. Pleaser take a looks at www.dropback.co.uk. I analyse over
230 songs and show what bricks of chords they are made up of, making
memorisation a lot easier. Please check it out.
John
TD
wrote:
I had that the other night with sauce. Although it was deleciterious
to my intestines, it tasted great.
-TD
pmfan57
> < 1KViewDownload
Thanks Rick. And the best way to learn the lyrics it to listen to
Frank Sinatra's version of a song. You never miss a single word.
Gerry
>> I can easily abstract the changes, and remember the relationships rather
>> than specific fingerings and such. But the melody seems to demand a
>> memory not only for the line (which I can frequently sing) but of
>> completely non-fumbled access to fingerings. I guess right about 80-85%
>> of the material, which can still leave quite a few clams, or apparent
>> "neighboring" or "approach" tones. ;-)
>
> Learning the melody is the MOST important thing when learning a new
> tune. It always amazes me that folks try to jump past this important
> step FAR to quick to get to the "good" stuff (people want to improvise
> before they really know the tune, and this just leads to a bunch of
> aimless meandering and noodling).
I agree. But as I attempted to underscore above, "learning the melody"
means one thing. "Memorizing the melody" means a number of things.
There is the conceptual thing, which might include singing or humming
it, knowing it's skips and steps and timing. Then there is the
positional location of the sequence on the fingerboard.
While chords are chords and a static D7 is a D7 wherever you play it,
the same can't be said for the melody which can be played in an almost
infinite number of locations, taking into consideration movement on the
fingerboard.
> As I've said MANY time, here's the sequence I've found to be MOST
> effective when learning a new tune.
>
> 1) Learn the LYRICS (I know it's not always possible to do this first,
> but when you can, it makes everything else SO much easier).
>
> 2) Play the melody, play the melody, play the melody! (and did I
> remember to say PLAY THE MELODY!) Play it in a bunch of different
> positions in the original key whenever possible. Sing it using note
> names, solfege, numbers (or all three). Play it through all keys in a
> single position. Play it on the first two strings (up and down the
> neck), etc.
While this is expansive in knowing the fingerboard it can be
problematic relative to *memorization*. If you've learned to play a
melody in 8 different places you have logically not memorized it as any
single construct. It remains in motion. As a result, after 3 months
away I'm not returning to a specific sequence in a specific location, I
am hunting/creating a new path yet again.
For me that makes for accuracy problems.
> 3) Listen to which melody notes seem to demand a chord, and find good
> voicings to support them. Work the song out as an arrangement, melody
> with chords.
>
> 4) Figure out the BASIC changes to the tune and RECITE them in TIME
> until you know EXACTLY when and where each chord happens in the tune.
>
> 5) Play the chords by themselves and work out some pleasing comping
> voicings. Try things like linear comping (voice-leading the top note in
> a single direction), using common tones in the lead voice while changing
> the chords, etc. This is fun and you can spend a bunch of time on this!
>
> 6) Run arpeggios of the chords. You can also do this directionally.
> Try starting with half-notes and playing only chord tones, moving to the
> next good chord tone when the chords change, but maintaining the
> direction of the line. After half-notes, do this with quarter notes,
> and then eighth-notes. Try triplets. Then try free-style, concentrating
> more on rhythms, but sticking with chord tones.
>
> 7) Transcribe somebody's solo on the tune. Learn and memorize it!
>
> 8) Compose your own solo on the tune. Learn and memorize it!
>
> 9) Listen to a lot of recordings of the tune. When you hear somebody
> doing something you like, learn it!
>
> 10) Play the tune a lot with other people.
>
> I'm sure I've forgotten something, but you get the idea.
--
Gerry
> I'm considering picking up the book. After all, if a book has even a
> SINGLE new idea that you can use, doesn't that EASILY justify the cost?
Precisely.
keithfr...@gmail.com
> that new terminology and system would be put to better use just
> learning more songs.
absolutely necessary. The terms are useful for (a) memorizing charts and
(b) communicating bricks to other musicians. Have you ever said to a fellow
band member 'Let's play a Back Door at the end of xxx'? This is the same
principle, except it tries to be more comprehensive.
If all I wanted to do was learn songs in the original keys I would do that.
My aims in using Lego are (a) to be able to play songs by ear/memory in
other keys and (b) to be able to assimilate new charts more quickly and
effectively.
TD
Well, at least you will have a lego to stand on.
-TD
Rick Stone
> I agree. But as I attempted to underscore above, "learning the melody"
> means one thing. "Memorizing the melody" means a number of things.
> There is the conceptual thing, which might include singing or humming
> it, knowing it's skips and steps and timing. Then there is the
> positional location of the sequence on the fingerboard.
>> 2) Play the melody, play the melody, play the melody! (and did I
>> remember to say PLAY THE MELODY!) Play it in a bunch of different
>> positions in the original key whenever possible. Sing it using note
>> names, solfege, numbers (or all three). Play it through all keys in a
>> single position. Play it on the first two strings (up and down the
>> neck), etc.
>
> While this is expansive in knowing the fingerboard it can be problematic
> relative to *memorization*. If you've learned to play a melody in 8
> different places you have logically not memorized it as any single
> construct. It remains in motion. As a result, after 3 months away I'm
> not returning to a specific sequence in a specific location, I am
> hunting/creating a new path yet again.
>
> For me that makes for accuracy problems.
I don't get this. By the time you've played it in a number of keys and
locations, you shouldn't even be thinking about (or worried about) what
fingering you're going to play it with. If you've REALLY done this part
of your homework (and remember what I said about singing, solfege,
numbers, note names, etc.) playing the melody should be just about the
same as humming it.
From the kind of feedback you're giving, I'm getting the definite
impression that the problems you're encountering have much more to do
with ear-training and technique issues (being able to easily hear all
the intervals and know how they sit on the fingerboard, etc.)
And if you know you're having memory problems with a tune, why on earth
would you stay away from it for 3 months? When I'm learning a new tune
and trying to develop those pathways (what I think of as "wiring") I
play those tunes EVERY day for weeks, months (or even YEARS) until these
things are no longer an issue. If that isn't solid, then YES, after a
few months, I'll probably have forgotten it.
I'm sensing that you expect this to happen much more quickly than it
actually does. Even when your "mind" understands what needs to be done,
the body is basically stupid. It needs to be told over and over again
and reinforced until the pathways are solid. This can take a VERY long
time.
My advice: Keep a LIST of the tunes you want to learn and play them ALL,
EVERY day for a year. After that, I don't think we'll need to have this
conversation.
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
Rick Stone
> Your summary is good. I would add: once you've learned the melody, memorize
> the intervals between the main melody notes (where the chord changes) and
> their roots.
Of course. Like I said, I knew I was leaving something out. Funny that
it should be the exact thing that I was just showing a student of Friday
(I KNOW that my memory isn't that good, I've just been over these
pathways a zillion times :-)
drthoma...@gmail.com
> > I think the mental energy required to learn all
> > that new terminology and system would be put to better use just
> > learning more songs.
>
> The aim is certainly not to introduce any more terminology than is
> absolutely necessary. The terms are useful for (a) memorizing charts and
> (b) communicating bricks to other musicians. Have you ever said to a fellow
> band member 'Let's play a Back Door at the end of xxx'? This is the same
> principle, except it tries to be more comprehensive.
I can see how terminology for the bricks would be useful for
communicating, but only if everyone else knows that terminology.
That's a long uphill battle, to create and disseminate a new
vocabulary that jazz players have gotten along without just fine for a
century.
> If all I wanted to do was learn songs in the original keys I would do that.
> My aims in using Lego are (a) to be able to play songs by ear/memory in
> other keys and (b) to be able to assimilate new charts more quickly and
> effectively.
Just play some of the songs you already know very well in two or three
other keys. Once you've done a few you'll see it's really not that
difficult to learn.
Like most things in jazz, it just takes a little practice, not reading
a book.
Chickenhead
"reconstructive memory?"
But playing a tune back from beginning to end like listening recording, sort
of like a photographic memory, that's not happening for me, though I can get
bits and pieces.
My wife isn't a musician, but she can hear things back in her head in their
entirety; I think she has perfect pitch or something close to it. She's
always tripping me out by singing some song or complex melody she just heard
one time on the radio or TV. I should have married a deaf chick.
"tomb...@jhu.edu" <drthoma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7eab032d-11e4-478a-81c9-
TD
<kuNOrtSPAMshapTHANK...@YOUhoVERYtmail.MUCHcom> wrote:
> Yeah, lyrics definitely help with reconstruction -- Is there such a thing as
> "reconstructive memory?"
>
> But playing a tune back from beginning to end like listening recording, sort
> of like a photographic memory, that's not happening for me, though I can get
> bits and pieces.
>
> My wife isn't a musician, but she can hear things back in her head in their
> entirety; I think she has perfect pitch or something close to it. She's
> always tripping me out by singing some song or complex melody she just heard
> one time on the radio or TV. I should have married a deaf chick.
>
>
> news:7eab032d-11e4-478a-81c9-
>
>
>
> > It helps me to learn the lyrics.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
"I should have married a deaf chick." That you should have met on a
blind date?
-TD
Keith Freeman
Tim McNamara
"Chickenhead" <kuNOrtSPAMs...@YOUhoVERYtmail.MUCHcom> wrote:
> Yeah, lyrics definitely help with reconstruction -- Is there such a
> thing as "reconstructive memory?"
Arguably all recall is reconstructive at some level. Human memory is
not like a video tape with a complete and immutable recording, it seems.
We remember key points about a situation and then fill in the gaps-
which frequently introduces errors. The reconstruction of events is
highly colored by emotion, by values, by what we hear others say about
the event, etc. (and that is why people are such notoriously lousy
witnesses in criminal proceedings).
David J. Littleboy
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:timmcn-F11BC0....@news-1.mpls.iphouse.net...
Careful there. You're about to reinvent Minsky's frames or Schank's
scripts...
--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Bill Williams
Well, Tony, the recent literature about the brain I've read suggests
that the left side might actually be useful here as it has been
postulated it develops as we age and partially compensates for our
decreasing right brain processing capacity. May even be the biological
source of the wisdom of the elders!
See for example Goldberg's book The Wisdom Paradox.
info: http://www.dana.org/news/cerebrum/detail.aspx?id=834
Bill Williams
TD
> > Try not to let the left hemishere (read literature about the brain) of the brain maintain all the control.
>
> Well, Tony, the recent literature about the brain I've read suggests
> that the left side might actually be useful here as it has been
> postulated it develops as we age and partially compensates for our
> decreasing right brain processing capacity. May even be the biological
> source of the wisdom of the elders!
> See for example Goldberg's book The Wisdom Paradox.
> info:http://www.dana.org/news/cerebrum/detail.aspx?id=834
>
>
> Bill Williams
Thank you Bill, will check that out. Here is one I would like to also
share with you. A wonderful book by Jill Bolte Taylor, Ph.D.
( neuroanatomist) called, My Stroke of Insight. You are on target,
because it has been largely proven that one side is capable of taking
over for the other, especially in times of crisis (cell death, etc).
This video of Jill may also be of interest, if accessible:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=50821560288&ref=ts#/video/video.php?v=102188950584&oid=50821560288
Cheers,
Tony
TD
>
> Well, Tony, the recent literature about the brain I've read suggests
> that the left side might actually be useful here as it has been
> postulated it develops as we age and partially compensates for our
> decreasing right brain processing capacity. May even be the biological
> source of the wisdom of the elders!
> See for example Goldberg's book The Wisdom Paradox.
> info:http://www.dana.org/news/cerebrum/detail.aspx?id=834
>
>
> Bill Williams
Here is Jill's website, if you are interested: http://drjilltaylor.com/
She also plays Guitar!
-TD
drthoma...@gmail.com
> On Dec 1, 6:32 pm, Bill Williams <bwbillwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Try not to let the left hemishere (read literature about the brain) of the brain maintain all the control.
>
> > Well, Tony, the recent literature about the brain I've read suggests
> > that the left side might actually be useful here as it has been
> > postulated it develops as we age and partially compensates for our
> > decreasing right brain processing capacity. May even be the biological
> > source of the wisdom of the elders!
> > See for example Goldberg's book The Wisdom Paradox.
> > info:http://www.dana.org/news/cerebrum/detail.aspx?id=834
>
> > podcast:http://cdn3.libsyn.com/brainsciencepodcast/18.2-brainscience-Elkhonon...
>
> > Bill Williams
>
> Thank you Bill, will check that out. Here is one I would like to also
> share with you. A wonderful book by Jill Bolte Taylor, Ph.D.
> ( neuroanatomist) called, My Stroke of Insight. You are on target,
> because it has been largely proven that one side is capable of taking
> over for the other, especially in times of crisis (cell death, etc).
I'm reading "Brain Rules" right now. The publisher is pitching it like
a self-help book, but it's really a pop science book, accessible to
non-biologists, about recent brain research.
Chickenhead
I had to google those terms. I then realized I'd probably need an advanced
degree just to do a decent job of pretending to understand them.
"David J. Littleboy" <dav...@gol.com> wrote in message
news:zoedndrILsd4qojW...@giganews.com...
Bill Williams
> ( neuroanatomist) called, My Stroke of Insight.
... and a guitarist to boot!
Thanks Tony - I've ordered it.
Bill
Patrick L
>
> All kinds of valid points have been brought up here, but it seems like
> NOBODY has addressed a critical issue. HOW MUCH, HOW OFTEN, and for HOW
> LONG do you play REGULARLY? (2 hours a day a couple times a week, 4 hours
> a day 7 days a week? etc.?)
I practice on two instruments, and I confess that I practice the piano more
than the guitar ( the piano is easier for me to improvise on, for some
reason ), but I will practice at least a half hour, even when I'm busy doing
other things on a given day, and when I have time, I might spend a couple
of hours. Over the years, I think my problem has arisen from my having
learned everything in terms of arrangements, which means the memorization of
tons of notes, rather than just memorizing the harmony, and the melody.
Those muscles used for one is not really the same for the other, so I'm just
getting started learning tunes from a pure harmonic standpoint.
Patrick L
Patrick
Patrick L
"TD" <tonyde...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6f61af8a-0038-46ae...@g27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 29, 12:20 pm, "Greger Hoel" <greg...@blowme.com> wrote:
> P� Sat, 28 Nov 2009 14:34:19 +0100, skrev TD <tonydecap...@gmail.com>:
>
> > Personally, my ear is reinforced with an ability to
> > see each of the twelve tones its respective color. I guess this is a
> > right brain ability (or disability).
>
> Is G red to you?
>
> --
> Always cross a vampire; never moon a werewolf
Ironically Green. Is it red to you?
-TD
I think I've got the purple passion green with envy blues !
P