BIAB 2009.5
Dan Adler
any use, to 2009.5, mostly to get the real drums and real upright bass
sounds. I read a pretty scathing critique by JAZ a few months ago of
2009, so I waited, and now that the bug-fix release came out I decided
to give it a try.
The executive summary is that I think it's worth the upgrade price.
Just the fact that you can play with decent sounding drums in a
variety of settings (swing, brushes, etc) is already better than any
drum machine I've seen. So, that's already a win. Then, you get a
pretty realistic sounding bass and drums which together can create a
near-Aebersold experience with all the advantages of being able to
change chords, keys, speeds, etc. In fact, I never got past that, so I
don't even know if any of the other features work - this was really
all I cared about.
If you buy the upgrade, it's important to understand how the pricing
works and what you get in each bundle - their advertising is very
confusing: http://www.pgmusic.com/bandbox.htm
The basic program (pro - upgrade price $69) comes with no usable drums
or other instruments (maybe one for demo). You then have to buy a
JazzPAK1 ($99) and/or JazzPak2 ($79) (I just got 1 so far) to get the
sampled instruments. These are huge files - 12GB all in total just for
what I got. Don't get the megapak - I made that mistake - unless you
want all sorts of country, blues and rock styles. But they were cool
about it and let me exchange for the pro/jazzpak1.
Once you get all of this, you can load in any song from the realbook
or whatever you type in, choose a real drum style, choose a bass and
piano, and then it composes a backing track which you can then loop.
The basic bass/drums are good enough for me, but there are some extra
ones that sound even better (like wynton kelly piano style), so you
can go nuts if you have the budget.
JAZ mentioned that it takes forever to compose the track compared to
the midi, which is absolutely true (especially if you put in for 20 or
30 choruses, it can take a couple of minutes) - but once it's
generated, you can save it and reuse. The end result is quite amazing.
Once you hear it, you will never be able to play with the midi backing
again. There are some glitches - some were actually really annoying. I
got the MAC version and on my computer it occasionally skipped and
faded out and in. I think I realized it's because you can't take a
slow sample (like 140bpm) and use it for an uptempo (like 260). The
samples and the speed are correlated, not 1:1, but also not 3:1, so
you have to match them roughly. Still, even with the problems, I had a
great time playing for 2 hours on the same song with a drummer that
was willing to play brushes and never switch to sticks - how cool (and
unrealistic) is that? Once it works, it's really mind boggling.
One last word for those with computer science or engineering
background, this really is a technical marvel - the way they
abstracted out enough parameters in the sampled files that they can
compose endless bass lines that mostly sound like a real acoustic bass
player and the same with drums. I don't think these are midi samples -
this sounds much better than if you assigned a virtual instrument to
the existing midi tracks. Did I mention that the drums actually SWING?
It's really impressive! I think my Boss Dr. Rhythm machine is going
extinct...
As I mentioned, I didn't even get to the zillion other features they
advertise, including very realistic solo instruments for creating
demos, and they claim to have revamped the notation editor as well.
But, to be honest, I may never get to use those features, because the
backing features alone are probably enough to fill up all the time I
have available for this...
RB
Sounds interesting Dan. Any chance you could post an mp3 demo-ing a
jazz style thing. Also, what was the total final cost to get what u
now hv?
TIA
Dan Adler
Richard,
They have demo videos of each individual real instrument style:
http://www.pgmusic.com/macvideos.htm
I could try to make a generated track if you don't think that's
enough.
The total cost for pro upgrade from 12 + jazzpak1 = $170 and it's all
downloadable immediately - only problem being bandwidth for such large
files.
They do offer refunds, and, as I mentioned, when I bought the wrong
combo, they were willing to exchange it in good faith.
I wonder if Pat Metheny's upcoming "Orchestrion" tour is built on a
similar concept...
Paul Mitchell Brown
Thanks for that Dan. I never got into BIAB for the very reasons you
outlined - maybe it's time to check it out.
lukejazz
Thanks Dan - I've been looking into this program, but like you say the
website is very confusing as far as what's what and their forum was
not really much help.
Lukejazz
bob
Thanks for the revue. I also just upgraded to 2009.5 and JazzPAK 1.
I'm still struggling through a learning curve - which Real Drums &
Real Tracks, etc. It is pretty time consuming and I haven't really
spent enough time to get the most benefit, but it is definitely worth
the $ to me. Btw I got the cds, not just the downloads. A couple
problems that maybe someone more proficient with BIAB can help with.
What's the best way to get from BIAB to Garageband with individual
tracks? How to control the volume mix - drums are usually too quiet,
bass too loud, etc.?
Bob
Paul K
Dan
do you know if the MAC version is as up to date as the Windows version? I
jettisoned the last PC about 3 years ago and the previous BIAB for the mac
was terribly primitive compared to the Windows version.
Have you tried the Latin styles? I find that they tend to work better for me
than the jazz styles, probably because I don't hear Latin stuff as well, but
also because the straight 8th feels are more "arithmetic".
On a different note: A friend of mine is doing some guitar tracks for BIAB. He
says he's doing only rock tracks. Did the version you get come with "real"
jazz guitar tracks? (there is nothing worse than midi guitar to a guitar
player's ears)
I'd like to hear some samples of you playing with it also.
paul K
--
http://www.youtube.com/TopologyPaul
http://www.soundclick.com/paulkirk
Bob Roetker
after Thanksgiving. Not sure what new features are coming (this
program has always been guilty of feature creep) but I think they know
that extreme tempos are a bit lacking so maybe that will be in the new
version. Everything Dan says is true though, for jazz folks, the
string bass and drums are amazing, and there are also some styles with
real (not midi) piano comping (if you like that sort of thing).
Best regards,
Bob Roetker
Visit me on the web at www.bobroetker.com
CDs at www.cdbaby.com/Artist/BobRoetker
Vids at www.youtube.com/broetker
JoeJazz2000
perennial upgrader. I got 2009.5 and both Jazz Packs. I am happy with
the system and find the real instruments a great improvement over the
midi. Oddly enough, I still find myself sneaking to midi styles for
certain practice sessions because they are easier to stretch and
compress tempos with. Some of the real instuments have a narrower
range of tempos before a different-tempo instrument should be
substituted. If I'm running through arps and lines over ii-Vs for
example, I often do this. To kick back and play a tune with the real
instruments however, is a pleasure. I recommend the upgrade. Although
it's close to annual upgrade time, PG Music is pretty fair when it
comes to year-end upgrade pricing if it has had a mid-year upgrade as
in '08 and '09.
rlemos...@gmail.com
since version 3. I have both the Mac version 12 (doesn't work with OS
10) and Windows Version 11. I tried to negotiate the $379 upgrade
since I had purchased two of the latest versions. No luck. They stuck
to the $399 price as if I only had one of the programs. After pouting
for a couple of weeks, I went ahead and purchased the upgrade on the
hard disk for $399. The program is really deep and I am learning how
to use it. Important to note that the Real Instruments capability
takes up over 60 Gigabytes. That is why the "free" hard disk option
makes sense, especially if your on-board memory is scarce.
I am very happy with the sounds of the real instruments--drums,
acoustic piano, bass. Also, the sax and trumpet solo instruments are
amazing. The jazz guitar and blues guitar sounds are also great.
However, the usefulness of all this depends on what you want. When I
first got the program, I started having BIAB generate jazz guitar
solos to a bunch of my jazz progressions. I was amazed how good these
solos sounded--both in musicality and the sound. This is not midi.
This is the sound of a real jazz guitar. No midi instrument that I
have heard sounds as real. Here is the "problem". The BIAB solos
sounded better than mine! After getting over this fact, I think this
capability is really useful for inspiration. What I am doing is
alternating choruses with the BIAB jazz guitarist and then me. It
really gives the vibe of playing with someone. Same for sax. Extremely
real sounding. The soloist is even better than guitar. Once again, the
usefulness to me is inspiration in playing with real sounding sax
player. Also, I have copped several good licks from the BIAB sax
player.
Another great improvement is the jazz guitar rhythm player (think
Freddie Greene). Previous BIAB sounds were really unuseable. The
rhythm guitar sounds are now fantastic. Especially true when mixed
with acoustic bass and even piano. Everything sounds good
independently and as a combo.
There are limitations. For one, real instruments sound best within
specific tempo ranges.This is NOT midi. For example, jazz ballads seem
to optimized for bpm of 60, 80, or 100. You can extend ranges but not
by too much. Also, it is a little more complicated to build a real
instrument combo. The drums, piano, bass, rhythm guitar are built
separately from many different feels (swing, straight 8ths, straight
16ths, etc.) and tempos. Some combos sound better than others. You
really need to experiment. However, you can save combos you like or
use existing examples.
Also, you still have access to the full range of midi instruments you
can also use. For example, there are no real instruments for strings.
However, the synthesized strings sound OK in a mix. Same for other
midi instruments.
There is so much more. The real organs, pedal steel sound good. There
are many rhythm guitar tracks (rock, country, fingerpicking, etc.)
that all sound great. A possible downside is that much is devoted to
country and rock music. However, this may be an advantage for some. I
haven't checked out the pop stuff yet but hope some can be useful for
jazz.
Overall, I am very happy with purchase. It is worth the price for only
the jazz. The rest of the stuff is bonus. Also, PG Music is a really
good company. They are very responsive to customers and I rate their
customer service among the best of software companies. The forum is
also excellent with several people who can answer any question you
might have.
Hope this is useful.
Ron
dunlop212
ralphpatt.com gives you for free ...
Jonathan (Cleve)
I've been thinking of upgrading. I'm wondering if I have all the midi
styles from an earlier version, can I use them with the upgraded
version.
Kevin Van Sant
<ed_h...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
<e00bf991-9e39-4714...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com> :
>Seems like a lot of dough and computer resources to get what
>ralphpatt.com gives you for free ...
It's not the same thing at all. Though I don't use BIAB anymore since
I got a looper.
________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
Check out my brand new CD "Play the Music of Horace Silver"
http://www.kevinvansant.com
Dan Adler
Paul,
The MAC version feels native and I believe is up to date. I didn't
look into latin, but if you check the link I replied to RB there are
demos of the styles there. The jazz guitar, I think, is all Oliver
Gannon who is Peter's brother, and a great jazz guitar player, so the
jazz guitar tracks sound great. Neither midi nor mudi.
Dan Adler
I think the export to garageband as individual tracks is actually one
of the demo videos I watched before buying but I haven't tried it. I
haven't played with the mix of the instruments, but I agree the
default might need some tweaks.
Dan Adler
I haven't tried, but it installs into a different location, so it will
not overwrite what you have, and I believe you can just copy over the
files.
I didn't know what some people said that they are likely to come out
with a new version soon. In that case I would recommend either waiting
or calling them and making sure you won't have to pay for an upgrade.
I may just do that myself... thanks for the tip.
dunlop212
>>ralphpatt.com gives you for free ...
>It's not the same thing at all. Though I don't use BIAB anymore since
>I got a looper.
OP said he was just using it to create backup tracks.
Agreed, though, that loopers>computers. I put Ralph's tracks on my
jamman.
Kevin Van Sant
<ed_h...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
<b1508657-e167-4376...@d10g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> :
>>>Seems like a lot of dough and computer resources to get what
>>>ralphpatt.com gives you for free ...
>
>>It's not the same thing at all. Though I don't use BIAB anymore since
>>I got a looper.
>
>OP said he was just using it to create backup tracks.
Using BIAB for backup tracks was all I was talking about. I never
used any of the other features except printing lead sheets. Patt's or
Aebersolds are great for what they are, but they are entirely static.
BIAB allows you to manipulate and configure the track with key
changes, tempo changes, rhythm style changes etc... with one or two
mouse clicks. Not to mention quick modifications to changes or form
or placing hits/breaks and so on. All these variables make using
BIAB completely different than pre-recorded tracks. Of course BIAB
also has lame swing/groove feel which is why a looper, with which one
has access to all those variables PLUS a good groove (if you can lay
it down) is far preferable to me.
Rick Stone
I got it about a month ago and it's pretty amazing. Of COURSE the drums
"swing!" It's generated from loops of Terry Clarke (one of Jim Hall's
drummers of choice)!
The new BIAB is a THOUSAND times better than any of the previous
versions which used MIDI instruments. Even though I bought BIAB back in
the 90s (and most of the upgrades for years) it always sounded so corny
(the drum fills sounded worse than the worst club-date drummer I can
ever remember) that I usually avoided it unless I was really desperate
to practice something and couldn't get a live rhythm section to work with.
I purchased the upgrade to 2009.5 and the two available jazz packs for
about $275 (US) and am so far pretty pleased.
There are a few things still not right with it though:
1) I DO wish that they had tracks with odd meters (so far none are
available). This is something that I'd actually love to have playalongs
for, and not many exist.
2) It really doesn't handle fast tempos well. Even the jazz styles that
are supposed to be "up" tempo say they're recommended to play at
quarter-note=190 (not exactly an "up" tempo, more like medium). Try
putting them at mm=350 (or even 300) and they really fall apart. I
noticed that when this happens, sometimes the parts seem to "drift" (the
piano might start to skip some beats and then wind up lagging behind the
drums). I'm guessing that these a bugs they will eventually fix.
3) I just don't get why after all these years they STILL don't have a
feature to print a chart with simple chord slashes. It's so easy to
enter a chord chart in BIAB that I would often use it to create a
quick-and-dirty version of a chart for a rehearsal, before committing
the time to do a finished chart in Finale. The ability to notate chord
slashes and rhythms would seem like a pretty easy feature to implement
(and I've suggested to the folks at PG Music MANY times over the last 15
years or so) but it just seems to be outside of their mind-set.
-
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: www.rickstone.com
epk: www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Other sites: www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
www.facebook.com/rickstonemusic www.reverbnation.com/rickstone
www.youtube.com/jazzand www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand jazzguitarny.ning.com
-
Keith Freeman
but I could never get it to do that.
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
dunlop212
> Using BIAB for backup tracks was all I was talking about. I never
> used any of the other features except printing lead sheets. Patt's or
> Aebersolds are great for what they are, but they are entirely static.
> BIAB allows you to manipulate and configure the track with key
> changes, tempo changes, rhythm style changes etc... with one or two
> mouse clicks. Not to mention quick modifications to changes or form
> or placing hits/breaks and so on. All these variables make using
> BIAB completely different than pre-recorded tracks. Of course BIAB
> also has lame swing/groove feel which is why a looper, with which one
> has access to all those variables PLUS a good groove (if you can lay
> it down) is far preferable to me.
>
> ________________________________________
> Kevin Van Sant
>
> Check out my brand new CD "Play the Music of Horace Silver"http://www.kevinvansant.com
I am at a different level. Learning new songs in standard keys at
standard tempos is 95% of what I want a backing track for. I have had
occasions where I wanted a backup track in a different key or tempo,
but it is easy enough to convert the track with another program (I use
adobe audition, but assume free programs like audacity would work as
well). Also, although I love computers and spend too much time with
them, I don't find myself prtacticing much with them. I am not posting
here to debate that BIAB has features others may need, but just to let
folks know there are free alternatives that might (but don't
necessarily) fill their needs.
I will go out on a limb and say that if someone is looking for a
practice tool, and is trying to decide between BIAB or a jamman, buy
the jamman; you won't regret it.
Claus Rogge
> if someone is looking for a
> practice tool, and is trying to decide between BIAB or a jamman, buy
> the jamman; you won't regret it.
Seconded. Haven�t touched BiaB since I got my Boss RC-50.
--
Music at the iTunes Store:
http://tinyurl.com/57ots3
The rest of it:
http://tinyurl.com/73efjm
Dan Adler
> Don't upgrade yet, the yearly updated version usually comes out just
> after Thanksgiving. Not sure what new features are coming (this
> program has always been guilty of feature creep) but I think they know
> that extreme tempos are a bit lacking so maybe that will be in the new
> version. Everything Dan says is true though, for jazz folks, the
> string bass and drums are amazing, and there are also some styles with
> real (not midi) piano comping (if you like that sort of thing).
>
> Best regards,
> Bob Roetker
Bob, I called them and they said that since there is a full refund
policy within a month, I can upgrade to the next version free if it
comes out in that time. If not, I'll decide whether to return it and
wait a few weeks for the new version. Thanks for pointing that out.
Bob Roetker
*absolutely* sure. They are a very easy company to do business with.
BTW, I'm with you, the good string bass and drums sound is all I need
for hitting the woodshed.
Best regards,
Bob Roetker
Visit me on the web at www.bobroetker.com
CDs at www.cdbaby.com/Artist/BobRoetker
Vids at www.youtube.com/broetker
Keith
version.