This is a thread just started over at delcamp.net. Fair to say it's one of the most viewed classical guitar forums out there. Our comrades over at rmcg generally look down at it, but there's a lot of traffic.
Maybe some of you would post over there. You be like Klattu arriving in D.C. A visitor from another world.
Beats me, too. To me it makes one player sound like another, levels off dynamics, makes it harder for other musicians to even hear you, makes the guitar solo even more forgettable than the upright bass solo to the layperson, artificially limits the instrument's overtones even more than playing an amplified instrument already does, and masks a lot of subtleties in one's playing. Aside from that, it's not really my cup of tea.
When I hear guitarists playing jazz standards live in a club or restaurant, the tone is often muddy sounding. My guess is that it doesn't sound as muddy where they're sitting (next to the amp), but it sounds worse in the audience. My thought is that they'd sound better if they got the amp off the floor and moved it a little further away from themselves.
I don't hear Wes, Joe Pass or Jim Hall as muddy at all. Not Charlie Christian either. In fact, I can't name a muddy player on record. I'm guessing all the early guys wanted to sound like saxophones and not like banjos or Hawaiian guitar, both of which were popular back then.
> This is a thread just started over at delcamp.net. > Fair to say it's one of the most viewed classical guitar forums out > there. > Our comrades over at rmcg generally look down at it, but there's a lot > of traffic.
> Maybe some of you would post over there. > You be like Klattu arriving in D.C. > A visitor from another world.
> k
I've really grown to dislike that traditional, muddy tone as well. I still like a warm tone, but I'm always self-conscious about it become too dark and muddy. I use roundwound strings to help keep some more brilliance in the tone, my guitar (an ES-135) is naturally a bit bright, and I play through a Fender tube amp, which can also be a bit bright. I roll off the tone on the guitar and amp a bit, but only because the starting point is a country-esque level of brightness. I find that voicings that involve more complex intervals (2nds, 7ths, etc) can't really be heard well at all with that muddy tone, which is ok for simpler, more conventional voicings.
As rpjazzguitar said, most well known players don't have a super dark tone, like Joe Pass, who often had a fairly bright tone (which isn't what I'm going for either). Guys like Jim Hall often have a pretty ideal balance of warmth without sacrificing clarity.
While we're whining about tones... I was never so disappointed as to finally see Kenny Burrell a few years ago at Yoshi's in Oakland where he was playing his 175 through a Fender Twin but his tone was so dark it was like listening to a drummer play only tom toms with a mallet for ninety minutes. On the other hand, I'm unable to sit through more than a tune or two of Barney Kessell's because it is so dry as to be scratchy in a most annoying way. Early John Scofield, on the other hand, was so widely chorused as to sound so out of tune, I couldn't deal with it. (I love his more recent mid-90's on stuff.)
OK...So here's my all-time favorite guitar sound: Bireli Lagrene's "Standards" CD. He's playing an unidentified (to me,at least) solid- body guitar (can't tell what it is from the picture, but the side view indicates a maple neck, and a fine-tuning bridge) through (maybe) a high-end outboard reverb, mixed by EMI,in Paris, and it's a Blue Note CD. Amazing straight-ahead (not much Gypsy vibe) trio playing. The sound is so beautiful--I much prefer it to the fat Gibsons he played since.
A close second is Martin Taylor's "Artistry" CD, where he plays his Yamaha Archtop and was recorded and produced by Steve Howe. A favorite solo recording.
Finally...I must say I've learned more about guitar sounds by watching Jack Zucker's product demo postings than I would have evre guessed.
I did not like Pass' tone consistently. My favorite album of his, Tudo Bem, is great despite his tone, not because of it.
Wes had great tone, astonishing really, but not so much on the early albums.
I never cared much for Tal's tone, nor Barney's. Chuck Wayne had good tone.
Chico Pinheiro gets a great sound on both nylon and steel. And, he gets it consistently, no matter what he's playing through.
Metheny gets great tone -- and when he started with his liquid sound, decades ago, I'd never heard anything like it. One note and you knew it was him.
But, my current favorites are the guitar sounds I hear on smooth jazz recordings. It's like jazz, but with a little bit of Mark Knopfler thrown in. I don't hate the music as much as a jazz fan should and I typically love the guitar tones. I don't know the players. I only hear this stuff on the radio.
I do it because I like the way that the notes of chords all mush together with that tone and I don't like the way individual tones in chords can jump out at you with a brighter tone.
I do it as an expression of being cool and detached and not wanting to grand stand. I think it sort came about in that Birth Of The Cool era via folks like Jim Hall.
I also do it because it minimizes the sound of the fingers sliding across the strings.
But mostly I'm just trying to ape the tone of my favourite players like Jim Hall, Ed Bickert and Pat Metheny.
Joey Goldstein wrote: > I do it because I like the way that the notes of chords all mush > together with that tone and I don't like the way individual tones in > chords can jump out at you with a brighter tone.
> I do it as an expression of being cool and detached and not wanting to > grand stand. I think it sort came about in that Birth Of The Cool era > via folks like Jim Hall.
> I also do it because it minimizes the sound of the fingers sliding > across the strings.
> But mostly I'm just trying to ape the tone of my favourite players like > Jim Hall, Ed Bickert and Pat Metheny.
Oh yeah... It also de-emphasizes a note's attack and tends to enhance the sustain.
I think it started as an easy way to get a compressed sound, which would sit better in live situations with other groups of instruments, and easier to produce sustained notes and chords which remained audible in those settings. Later it became the defacto 'tone' for jazz guitarists, set that tone and you're halfway to setting the expected 'vibe'. It still works for that purpose, also sounds similar to a lot of eminent players who've already used that sound, but now compressors and distortion are available to get the same or similar results. A lot of the modern players use a variety of tones and techniques now, but the big-box-jazz-guitar use is predominently set to the velvet-hammer tone of yore.
OTOH Charlie Christian used a relatively modern sound, tone and technique and Freddie Green more like a mellowed banjo, so there was no 'given' that the velvet hammer tone would predominate. If there was a wood boring insect which thrived on 'velvet hammer' tone.................?
On Nov 7, 4:05 pm, onlyserious <smh...@swbell.net> wrote:
> While we're whining about tones... I was never so disappointed as to > finally see Kenny Burrell a few years ago at Yoshi's in Oakland where > he was playing his 175 through a Fender Twin but his tone was so dark > it was like listening to a drummer play only tom toms with a mallet > for ninety minutes. On the other hand, I'm unable to sit through more > than a tune or two of Barney Kessell's because it is so dry as to be > scratchy in a most annoying way. Early John Scofield, on the other > hand, was so widely chorused as to sound so out of tune, I couldn't > deal with it. (I love his more recent mid-90's on stuff.)
Really? Even "Rough House"-era Scofield?
> OK...So here's my all-time favorite guitar sound: Bireli Lagrene's > "Standards" CD. He's playing an unidentified (to me,at least) solid- > body guitar (can't tell what it is from the picture, but the side view > indicates a maple neck, and a fine-tuning bridge) through (maybe) a > high-end outboard reverb, mixed by EMI,in Paris, and it's a Blue Note > CD. Amazing straight-ahead (not much Gypsy vibe) trio playing. The > sound is so beautiful--I much prefer it to the fat Gibsons he played > since.
I need to check that one out. Mine may be Bobby Broom on "The Way I Play", though there are some semi-hollowbody sounds that kill me as well.
I also dislike the way many players have morphed the jazz guitar sound of the 50s and 60s into a totally dead tone. Compare Pat Martino's current sound with the sound from the Lean Years CD. Back then, it was fat but it was also bright, clean and spanky. Later, on conciousness, it sounds like he started turning the tone control to 0. IMO that works in very quiet duo and trio settings but not in louder bands. The current trend of deadtone is not one of my favorites. For a good modern but traditional jazz guitar sound, I like Jesse Van Ruller's tone.
> This is a thread just started over at delcamp.net. > Fair to say it's one of the most viewed classical guitar forums out > there. > Our comrades over at rmcg generally look down at it, but there's a lot > of traffic.
> Maybe some of you would post over there. > You be like Klattu arriving in D.C. > A visitor from another world.
> k
Name one classic, well known player that has a "muddy" tone.
On Nov 7, 8:56 pm, sheetsofsound <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I also dislike the way many players have morphed the jazz guitar sound > of the 50s and 60s into a totally dead tone. Compare Pat Martino's > current sound with the sound from the Lean Years CD. Back then, it was > fat but it was also bright, clean and spanky. Later, on conciousness, > it sounds like he started turning the tone control to 0. IMO that > works in very quiet duo and trio settings but not in louder bands. The > current trend of deadtone is not one of my favorites. For a good > modern but traditional jazz guitar sound, I like Jesse Van Ruller's > tone.
It's all taste, I guess. "Consciousness" is my favorite Martino album by a wide margin and I love his tone on that. It goes right to your kishkes. Just to set the record straight, Martino did not invent the "dark" jazz tone and neither did Jim Hall. Like everything I like in jazz guitar, it all comes from Joe Pass. Listen to "CED" on "Sounds of Synanon" and it's all there. That power-punch percussive sound that floors you and goes right to your gut. The thin trebley sound makes me hit the fast forward button almost immediately unless it's played by a grand master like Benson (like on "Ode to a Kudu" from weekend in LA, which I can listen to from now to eternity). Benson's sound is rich in overtones because he plays with a flat left hand finger and you get all that flesh in his sound which makes it dry and yet sustainy and rich in overtones. People who just press lightly with the tip and turn up the treble just sound painful to my ears.
> On Nov 7, 8:56 pm, sheetsofsound <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I also dislike the way many players have morphed the jazz guitar sound > > of the 50s and 60s into a totally dead tone. Compare Pat Martino's > > current sound with the sound from the Lean Years CD. Back then, it was > > fat but it was also bright, clean and spanky. Later, on conciousness, > > it sounds like he started turning the tone control to 0. IMO that > > works in very quiet duo and trio settings but not in louder bands. The > > current trend of deadtone is not one of my favorites. For a good > > modern but traditional jazz guitar sound, I like Jesse Van Ruller's > > tone.
> It's all taste, I guess. "Consciousness" is my favorite Martino album > by a wide margin and I love his tone on that. It goes right to your > kishkes. Just to set the record straight, Martino did not invent the > "dark" jazz tone and neither did Jim Hall. Like everything I like in > jazz guitar, it all comes from Joe Pass. Listen to "CED" on "Sounds of > Synanon" and it's all there. That power-punch percussive sound that > floors you and goes right to your gut. The thin trebley sound makes me > hit the fast forward button almost immediately unless it's played by a > grand master like Benson (like on "Ode to a Kudu" from weekend in LA, > which I can listen to from now to eternity). Benson's sound is rich in > overtones because he plays with a flat left hand finger and you get > all that flesh in his sound which makes it dry and yet sustainy and > rich in overtones. People who just press lightly with the tip and turn > up the treble just sound painful to my ears.
I prefer Martino's dark, yet woody, sound on Exit to his tone on Consciousness. And I prefer the LP sound on Consciousness to that on the CD, which was actually thinned out, maybe in an attempt to make it brighter. I love the playing Pat does on Consciousness.
There are so many variations though. Martijn van Iterson gets a great sound. Nice and jazzy, but not muddy.
Who are the press (holly go) lightly players? Can you name names?
"I do it because I like the way that the notes of chords all mush together with that tone and I don't like the way individual tones in chords can jump out at you with a brighter tone."
Interesting that you say that Joey. I've been working on cg rep and general technique, and in that frame of reference (yes, totally different) You build your tech in such a way to decides which string you want to dominate.
"I also do it because it minimizes the sound of the fingers sliding across the strings."
Also here cgists work on technique to minimize squeaking.
What's this got to w/ jazz guitar? Nothing, just interesting because of the difference.
Name one classic, well known player that has a "muddy" tone.
Hi Phil-
It's not my thread, just thought it would be of interest, because it was originally posted on a cg list. Though I do agree w/ the several posters here who see it as a general trend. Not necessarily pervasive, but a tendency nevertheless.
On Nov 7, 11:13 am, Kevin Collins <kevinat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Beats me, too. To me it makes one player sound like another, levels > off dynamics, makes it harder for other musicians to even hear you, > makes the guitar solo even more forgettable than the upright bass solo > to the layperson, artificially limits the instrument's overtones even > more than playing an amplified instrument already does, and masks a > lot of subtleties in one's playing. Aside from that, it's not really > my cup of tea.
> -Kevin
Hi Kevin-
I agree w/ you here 100%. That's all why I switched to nylon strings.
> > This is a thread just started over at delcamp.net. > > Fair to say it's one of the most viewed classical guitar forums out > > there. > > Our comrades over at rmcg generally look down at it, but there's a lot > > of traffic.
> > Maybe some of you would post over there. > > You be like Klattu arriving in D.C. > > A visitor from another world.
> > k
> Name one classic, well known player that has a "muddy" tone.
> This is a thread just started over at delcamp.net. > Fair to say it's one of the most viewed classical guitar forums out > there. > Our comrades over at rmcg generally look down at it, but there's a lot > of traffic.
> Maybe some of you would post over there. > You be like Klattu arriving in D.C. > A visitor from another world.
> k >Name one classic, well known player that has a "muddy" tone.
Pat Martino?
--
************************************* Jon Fox Instructor of Commercial Music McLennan Community College www.jonfoxjazz.com
> On Nov 7, 11:16 pm, Dan Adler <d...@danadler.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 7, 8:56 pm, sheetsofsound <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I also dislike the way many players have morphed the jazz guitar sound > > > of the 50s and 60s into a totally dead tone. Compare Pat Martino's > > > current sound with the sound from the Lean Years CD. Back then, it was > > > fat but it was also bright, clean and spanky. Later, on conciousness, > > > it sounds like he started turning the tone control to 0. IMO that > > > works in very quiet duo and trio settings but not in louder bands. The > > > current trend of deadtone is not one of my favorites. For a good > > > modern but traditional jazz guitar sound, I like Jesse Van Ruller's > > > tone.
> > It's all taste, I guess. "Consciousness" is my favorite Martino album > > by a wide margin and I love his tone on that. It goes right to your > > kishkes. Just to set the record straight, Martino did not invent the > > "dark" jazz tone and neither did Jim Hall. Like everything I like in > > jazz guitar, it all comes from Joe Pass. Listen to "CED" on "Sounds of > > Synanon" and it's all there. That power-punch percussive sound that > > floors you and goes right to your gut. The thin trebley sound makes me > > hit the fast forward button almost immediately unless it's played by a > > grand master like Benson (like on "Ode to a Kudu" from weekend in LA, > > which I can listen to from now to eternity). Benson's sound is rich in > > overtones because he plays with a flat left hand finger and you get > > all that flesh in his sound which makes it dry and yet sustainy and > > rich in overtones. People who just press lightly with the tip and turn > > up the treble just sound painful to my ears.
> I prefer Martino's dark, yet woody, sound on Exit to his tone on > Consciousness. And I prefer the LP sound on Consciousness to that on > the CD, which was actually thinned out, maybe in an attempt to make it > brighter. I love the playing Pat does on Consciousness.
> There are so many variations though. Martijn van Iterson gets a great > sound. Nice and jazzy, but not muddy.
> Who are the press (holly go) lightly players? Can you name names?
I prefer Martino's tone on "El Hombre" over his later work. From what he has said in a couple of interviews, it was a Johnny Smith into a Twin.
George Benson actually uses a very light touch with his left hand-- just enough to get the note to sound clearly. People seem to talk a lot about "Benson" picking technique, but a big part of his sound is his left hand.
It seems to me Muddy tone started when early guitarists wanted to get the sound and feel of Sax Players, which meant fattening up the sound and to get rid of some of the attack on each note, and to do it with somewhat under powered tube amps of the day.
> On Nov 7, 11:16 pm, Dan Adler <d...@danadler.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 7, 8:56 pm, sheetsofsound <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I also dislike the way many players have morphed the jazz guitar sound > > > of the 50s and 60s into a totally dead tone. Compare Pat Martino's > > > current sound with the sound from the Lean Years CD. Back then, it was > > > fat but it was also bright, clean and spanky. Later, on conciousness, > > > it sounds like he started turning the tone control to 0. IMO that > > > works in very quiet duo and trio settings but not in louder bands. The > > > current trend of deadtone is not one of my favorites. For a good > > > modern but traditional jazz guitar sound, I like Jesse Van Ruller's > > > tone.
> > It's all taste, I guess. "Consciousness" is my favorite Martino album > > by a wide margin and I love his tone on that. It goes right to your > > kishkes. Just to set the record straight, Martino did not invent the > > "dark" jazz tone and neither did Jim Hall. Like everything I like in > > jazz guitar, it all comes from Joe Pass. Listen to "CED" on "Sounds of > > Synanon" and it's all there. That power-punch percussive sound that > > floors you and goes right to your gut. The thin trebley sound makes me > > hit the fast forward button almost immediately unless it's played by a > > grand master like Benson (like on "Ode to a Kudu" from weekend in LA, > > which I can listen to from now to eternity). Benson's sound is rich in > > overtones because he plays with a flat left hand finger and you get > > all that flesh in his sound which makes it dry and yet sustainy and > > rich in overtones. People who just press lightly with the tip and turn > > up the treble just sound painful to my ears.
> I prefer Martino's dark, yet woody, sound on Exit to his tone on > Consciousness. And I prefer the LP sound on Consciousness to that on > the CD, which was actually thinned out, maybe in an attempt to make it > brighter. I love the playing Pat does on Consciousness.
> There are so many variations though. Martijn van Iterson gets a great > sound. Nice and jazzy, but not muddy.
> Who are the press (holly go) lightly players? Can you name names?
Of course, the ABSOLUTE holy grail sound is Joe Pass on "For Django". That is the sound by which all sound is judged. It is the speed-of- light constant of sound. All other sound can just hope to converge to it at the limit, but never quite reach it.
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