Music and Memory

[Gerry]

In digging through some DiCaprio materials (stashed who knows when from
who knows where) I was surprised to find what's called Herigone's
mnemonic system was used for memorizing progressions. This is usually
encountered via the popular book by Harry Lorayne and Jerry Lucas, "The
Memory Book", published in the late 60's and still in print after 40+
years.

I read that book when I was 17, and though it really only provided me
with the numbers-to-words (and vice versa) routine, I found it
incredibly helpful and always have, though never with chord
progressions.

The Book:
http://tinyurl.com/c6uxymg

The System at wiki:
http://tinyurl.com/a7g5v3

I did use it musically for awhile when I had a very dull straight job
driving a school bus one summer: I named an object or phrse and then
would convert it to numbers. For instance: "convert them to numbers" is
728411123940 (if memory serves!). Then I'd try to sing that figure.

I still use it when someone tells me a phone number and I have no way
to write it down. If I get just a moment of silence I break it out into
consonants, then to images, and I can at least hold it for a day or
three.

I note also on wiki that a similar memory system, the method of loci
from Ancient Roman and Greek treatises and commonly called the journey
system, "was taught to schoolchildren for centuries, at least until
1584, "when Puritan reformers declared it unholy for encouraging
bizarre and irreverent images."

Thank you, Jesus!
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

[Jonathan]

You left out a "3" :)

[TD]

On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:59:43 PM UTC-4, Gerry wrote:

Name dropper and misspelled at that. Plus an extra "1".

[David J. Littleboy]

"Gerry" wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
I read that book when I was 17, and though it really only provided me
with the numbers-to-words (and vice versa) routine, I found it
incredibly helpful and always have, though never with chord
progressions.
<<<<<<<<<<

I moved out of state in '82, and my parents changed their phone number to
one I couldn't remember.

367-6385

I showed it to a mathematician friend who said (without even an instant's
hesitation):

"85 is a multiple of 17. Multiples of 17 are rare. 36763 is a palindrome.
What's your problem?"

I hate mathematicians.

-- David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

[Bill Williams]

> Name dropper and misspelled at that.

Oh,dear ... failing memory!

[thomas]

On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:59:43 PM UTC-4, Gerry wrote:

I would love to have a way to install the Bach lute suites and violin suites and cello suites in my permanent memory.

[Gerry]

On 2013-03-26 20:54:10 +0000, TD said:

> On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:59:43 PM UTC-4, Gerry wrote:
>> In digging through some DiCaprio materials (stashed who knows when from

> Name dropper and misspelled at that. Plus an extra "1".

A thousand pardons Mr. DeCaprio.

[Gerry]

On 2013-03-26 22:30:15 +0000, thomas said:

> I would love to have a way to install the Bach lute suites and violin
> suites and cello suites in my permanent memory.

All you need is a daily beating with a razor strop.

[TD]

Just teasin...

[Paul K]

Most people do....

>
> -- David J. Littleboy
> Tokyo, Japan
>

--
Paul K
http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/

[Jens W]

Hi Gerry, this is actually very interesting and something I tried to pursue
with very limited success... (making up my own system).

I stopped after talking to this brazilian dude who could play a couple of
100 tunes on the guitar while singing to them. When I told him that I had
problems memorizing changes, he asked me "well, do you remember how it
sounds?" and I told him yes. He asked the devastating second question "what
else is there?"

I have been working on ear training ever since, never on memorization...
also with quite limited success.

Jens

--------------



"Gerry" wrote in message news:201303260959437968-address@domaincom...

[charlieguitar]

If you work a few out and then just concentrate on rembering melodies usually the changes will just start coming to you especially with tunes that come from what they are calling "The Great American Songbook".Things like Wayne Shorter and Monk tunes though can present more problems (for me at least) so looking at the charts and playing through slowly and listening to how the given changes fit can get you to the point that whenever you hear those melodies the changes will fall into place for you.
Charlie

[charlieguitar]

Now if I can just work out a system for remembering how to spell remembering.....
CR

[Gerry]

On 2013-03-30 15:53:21 +0000, charlieguitar said:

> If you work a few out and then just concentrate on rembering melodies
> usually the changes will just start coming to you especially with tunes
> that come from what they are calling "The Great American Songbook".

I was thinking about that yesterday. I was looking at a couple of
titles that I can *never* remember from the title alone. One was "On
the Alamo", the other is "Where is Your Heart (Theme from Moulin Rouge
(1952)). In both cases, I haven't the slightest idea what the melody
is, and at least in English, both were cobbled together after the fact.

By and large I know the melodies, but I frequently at least some of the
lyrics which serves as an aid in remembing the melody, which serves in
remembering the changes.

The problem for me frequently comes with the bridge. For this the
mnemonic system would be helpful, I suppose, if I sat down and
"cartooned" them out. I think many who've done this kind of thing
would agree that during the process of working out a "cartoon", you
tend to embed the information significantly enough that the cartoon is
rarely, if ever, actually employed to trigger the memory.

> Things like Wayne Shorter and Monk tunes though can present more
> problems (for me at least) so looking at the charts and playing through
> slowly and listening to how the given changes fit can get you to the
> point that whenever you hear those melodies the changes will fall into
> place for you.

There's no arguing that "thoughtfulness" is the most important aspect!

[TD]

On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:59:43 PM UTC-4, Gerry wrote:

Right, the 'cartoon' is a rocket stage that falls off after the mark is made, but it can be recalled easily if too much time goes by concerning non use of the data, as in months or years. Everyone is different. And most players have no such need for trained memory concerning tunes. Although, I think it can be invaluable as a tool when studying things associated with analysis.

One of the best recommendations I can suggest is to practice melody and improvise where the melody is sparse (whole notes, rests, etc). Most players dig playing fills and the little kid in us often comes out whenever we can get away with it, within melody. It is often a lot easier to recall those freed up spots, and so the melody is there to support the fun.

Another important factor is in the trying to understand the logic of the progression. Why did the composer use that chord, etc.? It's all too often about where the chords come from and where they go to. This logic helps memory, because you can almost feel as though you are the composer. It's very easy to recall what we made up ourselves. In the end, nothing beats repetition.

[charlieguitar]

On Tuesday, March 26, 2013 12:59:43 PM UTC-4, Gerry wrote:

If I had a dollar for everytime someone on the bandstand asked"How does the bridge go?............Charlie

[Gerry]

On 2013-03-30 17:59:41 +0000, TD said:

> Another important factor is in the trying to understand the logic of
> the progression. Why did the composer use that chord, etc.? It's all
> too often about where the chords come from and where they go to. This
> logic helps memory, because you can almost feel as though you are the
> composer. It's very easy to recall what we made up ourselves. In the
> end, nothing beats repetition.

True; for better and worse.

I find with some times that have unusual bridges and transitions that I
come up with really smooth and well-crafted mechanisms to usher me
through it all. They can be really lovely, and certainly easy to
remember, since I worked so hard on them. But then they become
handcuffs, and I don't know any other way to get through the transition
other than my tricky contrapuntal harmonically-larded "solution".

And so take another approach. If things didn't change they wouldn't be
fun any more.

[TD]

Perhaps, so my main man, but that's why God gave us ears to eventually take hold of the reins.

[rpjazzguitar]

>"well, do you remember how it
>
> sounds?" and I told him yes. He asked the devastating second question "what
>
> else is there?"
>
>
>
> I have been working on ear training ever since, never on memorization...
>
> also with quite limited success.
>

This makes sense to me. The people I know who know lots of tunes simply remember how the tune sounds. That's not especially difficult. Most of us can sing the melodies to lots of tunes. Although we might not know the chords, we can probably tell when somebody plays the wrong ones.

The real skill is translating that non-verbal knowledge into the ability to find the next chord in any key. It seems to me that this requires memory for sounds, not memory for words (e.g. it goes to the x-interval after ...). And, the way to do it is, as the post above stated, with ear training.

[Gerry]

On 2013-03-31 19:08:01 +0000, rpjazzguitar said:

> This makes sense to me. The people I know who know lots of tunes simply
> remember how the tune sounds. That's not especially difficult. Most of
> us can sing the melodies to lots of tunes. Although we might not know
> the chords, we can probably tell when somebody plays the wrong ones.

That's why I mentioned a few whose titles don't mean anything, but if
somebody sings a couple of bars of it I know the tune. "On the Alamo",
or, many years ago, "Stella by Starlight". Especially with songs that
have no significant melodies it can be tough to remember which one is
"Stranger on the Shore" or "Midnight in Moscow".

> The real skill is translating that non-verbal knowledge into the
> ability to find the next chord in any key. It seems to me that this
> requires memory for sounds, not memory for words (e.g. it goes to the
> x-interval after ...). And, the way to do it is, as the post above
> stated, with ear training.

Agreed. The more tunes I learn, and the more iterations I play each
day, the more ways I find to go from any one chord to any other one
chord. That stuff accrues.

[TD]

Ear is ultimate, yet all ways work towards the goal. Words stimulate...anything that stimulates does not necessarily have to brushed aside. Some ears open more slowly. The bass line is the real schematic. The melody is the melody, although it too has logic; usually.

[rpjazzguitar]

Agreed about bass line. If you can hear the bass line and whether the chord has a natural or flatted third, you'll at least be able to play something. If you can identify the seventh, you can sound pretty good. Nail the fifth, sixth and ninth and you're an expert.

I notice that, when pianists comp, they don't necessarily hit the full chord the moment the chord changes. They may noodle a bit, maybe hear the bass, pick out the third, play a little run or find a guide tone, or something, and then decide on the rest of the notes in the chord. Guitarists don't often seem to think that way, although the great compers (like Jim Hall) do a lot of things besides strum chords.