Eric Johnson - Tribute to Wes
Lun
but he is still a great guitarist....
Five Sharp
#####
Elektrik Hendrik
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvyDYgl-rN8&feature=related
>
> but he is still a great guitarist....
The 'but' in your post suggests that Eric is unworthy of doing a Wes
tribute, is that correct?
Greger Hoel
<hjgon...@onsbrabantnet.nl>:
> Why is this a Wes tribute? What exactly is the Wes content?
Thumbstrokes and octaves? I think Johnson sounds good, here, but listen to
the rhythm setcion! I don't think these guys play swing very much.
--
Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Five Sharp
> Thumbstrokes and octaves?
Anyone uses those tools.
Granted, I know very little about EJ but in this clip all play stiff and
unswinging and the impro (the hallmark of jazz) is missing. It's a pretty
unconvincing tribute therefore IMHO.
It probably sounds a bit like Joe Pass doing an SRV tribute.
#####
hw
"Five Sharp" <hjgon...@onsbrabantnet.nl> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:ZxUWj.5350$4N1....@newsfe17.ams2...
i prefer the other eric johnson ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtK7KjXbeo0&feature=related
Kevin Van Sant
in message <g0h64n$ihg$02$1...@news.t-online.com> :
I thought the guy in the first clip was the "other" Eric Johnson :)
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
http://www.kevinvansant.com
CDs, videos, mp3s, gigs, pics, lessons, info.
rpguitar
them. And being influenced by someone doesn't mean you become a
clone. The most open minded players take bits and pieces from many
sources and synthesize their own voice.
Johnson has his own thing going, and within that context he
incorporates some Wes cliches. He does not have a jazz group so they
have no pretense of trying to swing, and of course they don't. They
are a hard hitting melodic blues-rock rhythm section. I saw EJ a
couple of times in the late 80's/early 90's when his first couple of
records came out. They kicked ass.
I like the tune, and think it's just fine as is.
pmfan57
wrote:
Johnson was influenced by Wes in his own way. He doesn't play jazz so
his tribute is in his own style. There is a famous classical guitar
concerto that is a tribute to and inspired by Django Reinhardt. It
sounds nothing like jazz or gypsy jazz. But the composer was inspired
by Django's music. What is the big deal? Does a tribute to Wes have
to be in the jazz idiom? I saw a show of country artists doing their
versions of Rolling Stones tunes. It was amazing. The fast bluegrass
version of Wild Horses was fantastic. Didn't sound like rock though.
Five Sharp
There is no big deal afaiac ... EJ is the last of my worries, believe me.
Does a tribute to Wes have to be in the jazz idiom?
> Good question. Could the Sex Pistols do a good Joe Pass tribute?
#####
Five Sharp
pmfan57
That's a lot more of a stretch. A much better analogy would be could
Jimmy Bryant and Speedy West do a Charlie Parker tribute.
Five Sharp
Jimmy Bryant and Speedy West do a Charlie Parker tribute.
I know it's a stretch. I am no expert on tributes but I'd expect some Wes
content in any Wes tribute. You know, like in so many Wes tributes I have on
my hard drive. For instance, could you do a tribute to Tal Farlow with just
some tunes that Tal never played and in a style that is not even reminiscent
of this? Would that be convincing?
You tell me. I don't think it'd work for me.
For the rest, EJ is ok with me. Just don't get the Wes vibe in that clip.
#####
pmfan57
I expected at least some comment regarding Speedy and Jimmy in your
reply.
Five Sharp
reply.
Of course Speedy and Jimmy could pull it off. Still, they'd have to play
Parker tunes.
#####
Joe Finn
>
> ............ I am no expert on tributes but I'd expect some Wes content in
> drive. For instance, could you do a tribute to Tal Farlow with just some
> tunes that Tal never played and in a style that is not even reminiscent of
> this? Would that be convincing?
>
> You tell me. I don't think it'd work for me.
Dick: I agree with what you are saying here. That clip doesn't really
capture much of the Wes magic. I don't care much for what the rhythm section
is playing either. .......joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Mark Guest
Good enough to not get in a "dissing match" (TM applied for). If rock
and blues players point their listeners to jazz, more power to 'em.
The players on the clip aren't jazz players, for sure. But the portion
of the clip I heard wasn't objectionable. Not great, or even that
good, but maybe some kid will say "Wes who?" and find his/her way to
jazz. Poor kid...
All the best,
Mark Guest
Jazz Guitar
www.myspace.com/markguest
Music produces a kind of pleasure which human nature cannot do
without."
Confucius (c.551-479 BC)
Joe Finn
news:0daac6d9-a318-48de...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On May 15, 11:53 am, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
>Good enough to not get in a "dissing match" (TM applied for). If rock
>and blues players point their listeners to jazz, more power to 'em.
>The players on the clip aren't jazz players, for sure. But the portion
>of the clip I heard wasn't objectionable. Not great, or even that
>good, but maybe some kid will say "Wes who?" and find his/her way to
>jazz. Poor kid...
Mark: It's funny the way you put that "poor kid" remark. 8-) That brings
a smile to my face.
All kidding aside though, the old argument about finding out about jazz via
the rock route is something I never bought into. These days even middle
schools have stage bands so kids are finding out about jazz via the
Ellington/Basie route. ....joe
cl...@claymoore.com
<greg...@spameggssausagespamandsparm.crap> wrote:
> På Thu, 15 May 2008 11:54:57 +0200, skrev Five Sharp
>
> > Why is this a Wes tribute? What exactly is the Wes content?
>
> Thumbstrokes and octaves? I think Johnson sounds good, here, but listen to
> the rhythm setcion! I don't think these guys play swing very much.
>
> --
> Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram:http://www.opera.com/mail/
I think this might be my last post here for a while, for reasons that
will soon become quite apparent. For years we've had the pro/amateur
debates and so on, and I've largely kept my mouth shut, but I've got
to tell you, Five Sharp, and Joe Finn how absolutely fucking clueless
you are in some of these comments. Specifically this: the bassist on
this video is Chris Maresh, whom I've worked with since @1984, when he
was 18 years old and a recent transplant to Austin, TX. At age 19 he
beat out a conservatory trained friend of mine for a bass chair in the
Austin symphony, after playing upright bass for something like three
years. Chris recorded with me on my first CD "Meeting Standards," and
I also recorded with him on other unreleased sessions with Elias
Haslanger and Ernie Watts. On the tune Relaxin' at Camarillo Chris
sight-read the head on the intro, and I've never put anything in front
of him, whether straight ahead jazz, funk, fusion, rock, or what have
you, that he couldn't read down and play the shit out of at sight.
Quite simply he's one of the best musicians I know, and that counts
for a lot considering some of the company I've been fortunate to keep
over the years.
What I think pisses me off more than anything is how you guys - and
you're certainly not alone in doing this - pass judgment on someone's
playing based on one clip, especially when so may people on this group
get their jollies posting clips on youtube of themselves playing with
Aebersold records. Take a look at Chris's creds, then go back an look
at yours, and see if you think you've got any business talking the
shit you do. http://www.chrismaresh.com/disc.html and
http://www.chrismaresh.com/bio.html.
Clay
Five Sharp
you're certainly not alone in doing this - pass judgment on someone's
playing based on one clip, especially when so may people on this group
get their jollies posting clips on youtube of themselves playing with
Aebersold records. Take a look at Chris's creds, then go back an look
at yours, and see if you think you've got any business talking the
shit you do. http://www.chrismaresh.com/disc.html and
http://www.chrismaresh.com/bio.html.
> Clay
Well I had no idea who he was. I would have kept my mouth shut if I had
known he was your buddy of course. And yes, I have no right because I am a
total nobody on guitar that sucks from here to Tokyo to boot.
I gave an opinion and I can't take it away. I thought it sounded pretty
stiff but that's my incompetence too I guess. I don't even hear what is good
or not so good anymore apprently.
I post one thing per week or fortnight and regardless of what it is, someone
WILL BE pissed or insulted. That's the way of this group. It's unavoidable
unless you never give an opinion. I listened to the clip and did not like
it. That's all.
I cringe at 50% of the posts myself.
If this had happened a year ago I might have cared but the way I feel about
this group now ... Nah. Don't care much anymore. So maybe we can both leave.
#####
shawnab...@bellsouth.net
On May 15, 11:53 am, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
Five Sharp
longer than you are old.
#####
<shawnab...@bellsouth.net> schreef in bericht
news:fb8cb023-d257-4f55...@j22g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Gerry
I got interested in jazz via the rock route. I met a rock/blues guy
who blew mew away. I asked where he came up with that stuff and he
told me he stole all of it from George Benson. Another rock/blues
player told me about Charlie Christian. You may not by into that, but
it was my personal experience. We were looking for a way up *in
rock/blues* and these guys seems like secret weapons. We already had a
predilection to "roots" from such as the Robert Johnson album we saw on
the front of Bob Dylan's "Bringing it All Back Home". I read a
pop-magazine article on Zappa after the MOI had about two albums out.
He said "Don't learn the guitar for me. If you want to learn the
guitar listen to Wes Montgomery, if you want to learn the piano, listen
to Otis Spann". Why he picked Otis Spann i can't say but I bought
records by both of them liked them both.
If it had been a Miles Davis interview, I wouldn't have read it, since
I wasn't in to jazz yet.
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
Five Sharp
"Five Sharp" <hjgon...@onsbrabantnet.nl> schreef in bericht
news:3k1Xj.2214$4B6...@newsfe14.ams2...
> Ah, mista Shawn smells his chance. Ahhhh .... how nice! I have played rock
> longer than you are old.
>
> #####
Make that "longer than TWICE your age."
#####
pmfan57
> Ah, mista Shawn smells his chance. Ahhhh .... how nice! I have played rock
> longer than you are old.
>
> #####
>
> Jazz snobs are entertaining.
> On May 15, 11:53 am, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Five Sharp" <hjgonst...@onsbrabantnet.nl> wrote
>
> > > ............ I am no expert on tributes but I'd expect some Wes content
> > > in
> > > any Wes tribute. You know, like in so many Wes tributes I have on my
> > > hard
> > > drive. For instance, could you do a tribute to Tal Farlow with just some
> > > tunes that Tal never played and in a style that is not even reminiscent
> > > of
> > > this? Would that be convincing?
>
> > > You tell me. I don't think it'd work for me.
>
> > Dick: I agree with what you are saying here. That clip doesn't really
> > capture much of the Wes magic. I don't care much for what the rhythm
> > section
> > is playing either. .......joe
> > --
>
> - Show quoted text -
Five Sharp is not a jazz snob. Sometimes he even feels a little Beck-
ish.
Gerry
> I think this might be my last post here for a while, for reasons that
> will soon become quite apparent.
I'd hate to see you go, Clay. People are free to disagree on all manner
of topics. And they are certainly free to criticize one another for a
lack of depth in analysis. I don't know that it's important to insult
them personally in the process, but most of what you said addressed
your concerns, rather than the participants.
Greger Hoel
<cl...@claymoore.com>:
Is stating that I don't /think/ they play swing very much a judgement?
Really? I'm sure your buddy is a very good bassist; he has to be to be in
EJ's band, but I don't think the swing is happening in that clip. Do you?
For all I know, they might usually swing their asses off, but as I don't
feel it in that clip, I reckoned that, top notch musicians that they are,
they just don't play much in that style.
So, there. And I suck so bad I don't even tape myself.
Gerry
<gre...@spameggssausagespamandsparm.crap> said:
> Is stating that I don't /think/ they play swing very much a judgement?
> Really? I'm sure your buddy is a very good bassist; he has to be to be
> in EJ's band, but I don't think the swing is happening in that clip.
> Do you? For all I know, they might usually swing their asses off, but
> as I don't feel it in that clip, I reckoned that, top notch musicians
> that they are, they just don't play much in that style.
>
> So, there. And I suck so bad I don't even tape myself.
I haven't heard the recording, but focusing on Eric Johnson for a
moment: Perhaps he didn't WANT it to swing proper/traditional. Maybe
he wanted to give it "something else" that doesn't sound right, for all
the logical reasons, to you all.
Just a thought.
pmfan57
> On 2008-05-15 11:39:29 -0700, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> said:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
From the hundreds of interviews I have read, I would say that the vast
majority of jazz guitarists under a certain age are like Lorne Lofsky
and Doug Raney--they were rock players first. Young fogey's are the
exception rather than the rule.
According to Doug Raney, he was not influenced very much at all by his
father's playing until he already knew how to play like Clapton and
his other rock guitar heroes. Lofsky was, according to Joey, a great
rock player.
I'm not saying that the rock got them into jazz; they just learned it
first. However, becoming seriously good on guitar might eventually
lead the rock guitarist, in the hopes of finding more stuff to play to
challange them, to listen to John McLaughlin or Allan Holdsworth, and
then from there get into jazz. (I'm pretty sure Kreisberg is a
Holdsworth guy first, also.)
Greger Hoel
> I haven't heard the recording, but focusing on Eric Johnson for a
> moment: Perhaps he didn't WANT it to swing proper/traditional. Maybe he
> wanted to give it "something else" that doesn't sound right, for all the
> logical reasons, to you all.
>
> Just a thought.
Who knows. I don't /think/ so, though; watch the clip.
rakmanenuff
> Granted, I know very little about EJ but in this clip all play stiff and
> unswinging and the impro (the hallmark of jazz) is missing. It's a pretty
> unconvincing tribute therefore IMHO.
I THINK Five Sharp should listen to Eric Johnson (not this
particular clip though), and I think Eric Johnson should
listen to Five Sharp :)
The end result might be really lyrical/melodic soloing
that swings like a mofo.
Joe Giglio
hey clay
hope you're all doing well!
it goes w/o saying-i dig you & your music...let's gig the next time
you're in the apple, just give me a holler,
i am a real EJ fan & have been so for a long time-he's a monster
musician.
i think though that it is fair to react positively or negatively to
any performance regardless of one's professional status-some of the
best players i know are smart enough to do something else to support
their addiction to food/shelter...
re the EJ/Wes trib vid-all the elements of solid music are present-no
doubt.
i though, wouldn't like that track whether it was a tribute to Wes or
Dick Dale.
imo-it is a weak tune & EJ was not hitting the changes enough to be
playing w/o another chordal instrument-he should have called you!
as someone who has spent my life developing my art/craft, i find it
mildly annoying to observe such a weak attempt by such a great player-
i know that there was no big announcement touting this vid as a 'jazz'
performance but w/ wes in the title & the thumbed octaves it's not out
of line to discuss it in a jazz context-the tune was obviously
intended to swing-it did not, though it's likely that if it were
played at a different/faster tempo w/ another soloist, with different
melody/harmony - the bassist & drummer could have accomplished their
task.
i also believe that it is also not incumbent upon a listener to be
familiar with a performer's curiculum vitae before reacting to a
particular performance-in this instance these great players did not
swing-in other instances i'm sure they burn the barn.
joe finn is a fine player & is certainly a professional player, &
regardless of whether or not 5#'s vids are done w/ BIAB/Abersold
tracks-he can play some shit (& there are some fine solo gtr vids on
his site)
personally, in the popular culture sense of things, i don't really
care that much about what is being put out there by whomever is
putting it out - i gave up on the music BUSINESS a long time ago-'it's
the germs world-we're just livin' in it' - sub text-most all of us are
hardly a ripple in the 'Great Stream'('Live!' Pat Martino-Muse Records-
when life was simple), but we still have our feelings/impressions/
opinions about things, wrong/right-objective/subjective
honestly, i wrote this note because i don't like seeing you all angry
- it skews my image of the chill Clay i look up to.
pace e amore amico mio-a presto...
joe g.
woland99
Isn't it just clip from INSTRUCTIONAL DVD? I have seen Eric live and
I know he can play 10 tines faster and about 2.6738 times more
interesting
- I bet he was just playing that sparse and prepared piece just
to demonstrate some Wes' techniques and not to create his own musical
tribute to him.
Dave
> feel it in that clip, I reckoned that, top notch musicians that they are,
> they just don't play much in that style.
Bingo. It's pretty awful. Sounds like rock guys w/ no feel for swing. And
though the bass ain't hap'nen, my first thought was: the drummer should be
shot. Very heavy-handed.
DougW
> unswinging and the impro (the hallmark of jazz) is missing. It's a pretty
> unconvincing tribute therefore IMHO.
EJ is great. I don't think anyone could sound good with that rhythm
section playing swing. Not even Joe Pass.
Mark Cleary
do anything real special in his playing. EJ is a great player although
he is not someone I will listen to for lengths of time. I think when you
have a name like EJ and a reputation then you probably can do whatever
you feel like. It strikes me as a player who is doing tribute but is not
really a Wes type player. I guess it is ok but nothing something I find
I have to hear or purchase the CD.
As for those who put Abersold things on youtube and solo, I have found
some pretty good stuff. Some of it is not very good and only in fun
including my own ( although it did not use Abersold ) but I don't think
that is a problem. Not everyone can be Wes or even that good so it
allows for some cheap way to get some air time. I like the idea that I
see those like myself trying to play through the changes and maybe not
get lost.
Mark Cleary plays Hollenbeck Jazz Guitars
Handmade http://hollenbeckguitar.com/
zepa....@gmail.com
Agreed.
What about this "bossa nova" ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi0rVYHl3Jk&feature=related
Listen what the rhythm section is playing.... that's supposed to be
a Bossa nova (!).
Not even Joao Gilberto could sound good with that. :-)
ZP
JMK
> "Mark Guest" <Mark.C.Gu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Shame. That was my route. Stupid guitar player trying to get past a
roadblock. Oh, hey, cool, what's this? Next thing you know the iPod
nano's chockablock with Wes, Pass, Coryell, Grant Green, etcetcetc. Is
that a less valid route? I cannot imagine why. Sometime the end points
are all that matter. The rest is experience.
JMK
Joe Finn
>Clay
I'm sorry you feel that way, Clay.
I wrote, "That clip doesn't really capture much of the Wes magic. I don't
care much for what the rhythm section is playing either." I stand by my
remarks. These guys are probably capable of a lot more but that clip is not
happening. ........joe
shawnab...@bellsouth.net
> "Five Sharp" <hjgonst...@onsbrabantnet.nl> schreef in berichtnews:3k1Xj.2214$4B6...@newsfe14.ams2...
>
> > Ah, mista Shawn smells his chance. Ahhhh .... how nice! I have played rock
> > longer than you are old.
>
> > #####
>
> Make that "longer than TWICE your age."
>
> #####
Joe Finn
"Gerry" <some...@sunny.calif> wrote
>
> I got interested in jazz via the rock route. I met a rock/blues guy who
> blew mew away. I asked where he came up with that stuff and he told me he
> stole all of it from George Benson. Another rock/blues player told me
> about Charlie Christian. You may not by into that, but it was my personal
> experience. We were looking for a way up *in rock/blues* and these guys
> seems like secret weapons. We already had a predilection to "roots" from
> such as the Robert Johnson album we saw on the front of Bob Dylan's
> "Bringing it All Back Home". I read a pop-magazine article on Zappa after
> the MOI had about two albums out. He said "Don't learn the guitar for me.
> If you want to learn the guitar listen to Wes Montgomery, if you want to
> learn the piano, listen to Otis Spann". Why he picked Otis Spann i can't
> say but I bought records by both of them liked them both.
>
> If it had been a Miles Davis interview, I wouldn't have read it, since I
> wasn't in to jazz yet.
Gerry: Things have changed. You and I are about the same age, I take it. One
of today's major trends in jazz education is in the schools starting in 7th
grade. Kids are dealing directly with the Ellington literature. A lot of
guys our age took the long way around but those days are gone.
.........joe
Joe Finn
>From the hundreds of interviews I have read, I would say that the vast
>majority of jazz guitarists under a certain age are like Lorne Lofsky
>and Doug Raney--they were rock players first. Young fogey's are the
>exception rather than the rule.
That's all true but guys our age have to accept the current circumstances.
Jazz education is a fact of life for junior high and even middle school
kids. ......joe
JMK
> "Gerry" <somewh...@sunny.calif> wrote
>
> - Show quoted text -
But 7th graders aren't playing in clubs and trying to get beyond the
pentatonic box. I think the point was that there are many players who
were rock players who looked upon jazz as a way of improving their
playing and got hooked.
Joe Finn
>,,,,,. That was my route. Stupid guitar player trying to get past a
>roadblock. Oh, hey, cool, what's this? Next thing you know the iPod
>nano's chockablock with Wes, Pass, Coryell, Grant Green, etcetcetc. Is
>that a less valid route? I cannot imagine why. Sometime the end points
>are all that matter. The rest is experience.
>JMK
I hear you. All roads lead to Rome, as they say. The right kind of guidance
can help you from having to take the long way around though. It can save you
years, and life is short. .......joe
Joe Finn
>Jazz snobs are entertaining.
Taking responsibility has nothing to do with snobbery. .......joe
JMK
> "JMK" <jkaih...@bellsouth.net> wrote
Maybe. But I have no regrets about how long it took me to get where I
am, wherever that is. I think how I got where I am (wherever that is)
is still valid. Of course, I don't do this for a living, which seems
to be an interesting, if latent, split in this group.
JMK
Joe Finn
>But 7th graders aren't playing in clubs and trying to get beyond the
>pentatonic box. I think the point was that there are many players who
>were rock players who looked upon jazz as a way of improving their
>playing and got hooked.
I teach kids that age and you are correct they are not playing in clubs. I
don't show them pentatonics so they are not trying to get beyond something I
don't teach. They do know the major scale though. Lots of rock players do
move towards jazz because it's so much more satisfying to play and to
appreciate as you suggest. These days lots of kids go directly to jazz and
don't know what rock is. .......joe
Joe Finn
"JMK" <jkai...@bellsouth.net> wrote
>Maybe. But I have no regrets about how long it took me to get where I
>am, wherever that is. I think how I got where I am (wherever that is)
>is still valid. Of course, I don't do this for a living, which seems
>to be an interesting, if latent, split in this group.
>JMK
You shouldn't have any regrets. At the same time it's important to realize
that it's not about us anymore. There is a new generation with educational
needs that must be addressed. Our responsibility is to them. ......joe
Gerry
>
>
> "Gerry" <some...@sunny.calif> wrote
>>
>> I got interested in jazz via the rock route. I met a rock/blues guy who
>> blew mew away. I asked where he came up with that stuff and he told me he
>> stole all of it from George Benson. Another rock/blues player told me
>> about Charlie Christian. You may not by into that, but it was my personal
>> experience. We were looking for a way up *in rock/blues* and these guys
>> seems like secret weapons. We already had a predilection to "roots" from
>> such as the Robert Johnson album we saw on the front of Bob Dylan's
>> "Bringing it All Back Home". I read a pop-magazine article on Zappa after
>> the MOI had about two albums out. He said "Don't learn the guitar for me.
>> If you want to learn the guitar listen to Wes Montgomery, if you want to
>> learn the piano, listen to Otis Spann". Why he picked Otis Spann i can't
>> say but I bought records by both of them liked them both.
>>
>> If it had been a Miles Davis interview, I wouldn't have read it, since I
>> wasn't in to jazz yet.
>
> Gerry: Things have changed. You and I are about the same age, I take it. One
> of today's major trends in jazz education is in the schools starting in 7th
> grade.
In thousands of school in the United States, the textbooks are old and
the teachers have body guards. Not all schools are created equal, and
there are lots of them that have no music much less jazz.
> Kids are dealing directly with the Ellington literature. A lot of
> guys our age took the long way around but those days are gone.
People get to music their own way. It's nice to know that some are
exposed to jazz at an early age in school. I was too, though not in
school, and was unimpressed. You take up the mantle when you take up
the mantle. Certainly musicians can get to jazz via rock, blues,
classical, country or polka.
Joe Finn
"Gerry" <some...@sunny.calif> wrote
>
> In thousands of school in the United States, the textbooks are old and the
> teachers have body guards. Not all schools are created equal, and there
> are lots of them that have no music much less jazz.
I'm not addressing issues of social engineering and I don't teach in public
school. I deal directly with private students.
> People get to music their own way. It's nice to know that some are exposed
> to jazz at an early age in school. I was too, though not in school, and
> was unimpressed. You take up the mantle when you take up the mantle.
> Certainly musicians can get to jazz via rock, blues, classical, country or
> polka.
If you happen to have a look at the Downbeat student music award issue
sometime you'll see that jazz education is a big trend. I'm certain that you
already appreciate the dimensions of this phenomemenon. We have to get past
what we ourselves may have gone through. There are generations of kids up to
the age of thirty or so who came through Eastman, New School, Manhattan,
etc. and have had a first class conservatory education in the idiom.
Jim Fogarty
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvyDYgl-rN8&feature=related
>
> but he is still a great guitarist....
Reading all these responses has been a gas........
I'm an experienced pro musician, and a HUGE jazz MUSIC fan, although
not much of a jazz player myself. I used to beat myself up about
it..........I've always had too much interest in LOTS of different
music to devote the time necessary to JUST play one style.
But anymore, I feel I'm lucky I avoided that trap.
The attitudes expressed here are a perfect example of why jazz will
always be a small, niche, elitist artform, locked in the ghetto of it's
own making..............and why most jazz musicians (not all, but most)
are pathetic, bitter, little whiners............angry because the rest
of world doesn't bow down in respect for all the years of hard work
they've put in on mastering the intricacies of the all-mighty ii/v/1.
Maybe if you got your heads out of your own asses long enough to see
beyond flatwounds and Polytones, you might enjoy what the rest of the
musical world has to offer...........hell, even learn something, maybe?
And surprise, surprise...........have you ever noticed the TRULY great
ones don't have that kind of fucked-up, my-music-is-better-than-yours
attitude, do they??
Hmmmmm........
- Jim
woland99
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvyDYgl-rN8&feature=related
>
> but he is still a great guitarist....
One more time...
The DVD on question "Art of Guitar" suppose to be INSTRUCTIONAL
DVD - not a footage of EJ playing in the club. I have seen EJ live
he can play much faster and much more interesting. The Youtube clip
is simple a simplified etude in playing jazzy chords and octaves.
It is not meant to be a musical tribute from EJ to Wes showing EJ's
virtuosity. It is merely an etude for people that want to play more
"jazzy". Ergo most of discussion here misses the point.
hw
<cl...@claymoore.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:71f4e76e-0f7a-4548...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On May 15, 5:37 am, "Greger Hoel"
<greg...@spameggssausagespamandsparm.crap> wrote:
> På Thu, 15 May 2008 11:54:57 +0200, skrev Five Sharp
> <hjgonst...@onsbrabantnet.nl>:
>
> > Why is this a Wes tribute? What exactly is the Wes content?
>
> Thumbstrokes and octaves? I think Johnson sounds good, here, but listen to
> the rhythm setcion! I don't think these guys play swing very much.
>
> --
> Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram:http://www.opera.com/mail/
-snip-
<What I think pisses me off more than anything is how you guys - and
<you're certainly not alone in doing this - pass judgment on someone's
<playing based on one clip, especially when so may people on this group
<get their jollies posting clips on youtube of themselves playing with
<Aebersold records. Take a look at Chris's creds, then go back an look
<at yours, and see if you think you've got any business talking the
<shit you do. http://www.chrismaresh.com/disc.html and
<http://www.chrismaresh.com/bio.html.
<Clay
man, if that pisses you off more than *anything* you gotta re-check your
priorities ;)
Antal Abel
> "Gerry" <somewh...@sunny.calif> wrote
>
Eric Johnson doesn't even play jazz yet this performance isn't that
bad. To most people, this sounds jazzy. Isn't that the goal?
As a side note, I don't think he's even trying to be extremely jazzy.
I think a smart guy like EJ wouldn't be tapping if he wanted to
convince actual jazz players that he can play jazz. (http://
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi0rVYHl3Jk&feature=related)
tom walls
caa320...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, jwra...@aol.com says...
> I saw a show of country artists doing their
> versions of Rolling Stones tunes. It was amazing. The fast bluegrass
> version of Wild Horses was fantastic. Didn't sound like rock though.
>
What show was this, Joe? I'm intrigued.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
paul
>
> What I think pisses me off more than anything is how you guys - and
> you're certainly not alone in doing this - pass judgment on someone's
> playing based on one clip,
clay, I think it's wrong to judge someone's playing based on one clip.
however, I think it's fine to say "I think that clip isn't swinging"
or "I think that clip sucks" no matter who is playing. I think we can
all agree you don't have to look at someone's resume to have an
opinion on a piece of music.
tomsalvojazz
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvyDYgl-rN8&feature=related
>
> but he is still a great guitarist....
Yes... he is. Eric Johnson is one of the most unique, gifted and
talented musicians out there and can play circles around probably 90%
of the members of this group. His genre is not jazz. I don't know
why, if you're familiar with him, you would expect something of his
called "Tribute to Wes" to sound exactly - or even closely - like
Wes. Music is an art form. Art is interpretive. This clip
represents the music ERIC JOHNSON plays when he is INSPIRED BY Wes.
It would be more of an insult and more disprespectful if EJ pulled out
an L5 and tried to sound exactly like Wes - and you guys would bash
him for it.
You guys amaze me. Rip a Mike Stern clone a new one... but then
criticize EJ because his Tribute to Wes doesn't swing enough for you.
I have every one of EJ's CDs and every one of his DVDs. There might
not be a single track anywhere that "swings" enough for this group.
But the body of work is amazing. And the people whom he selects to
back him are all fine players IN THEIR RESPECTIVE GENRES.
I encourage anyone not familiar with Eric Johnson to check out some of
his work. Listen to a few of his CDs. I think that THEN you will be
able to see this video in the proper context. Then, and only then, if
you still don't like it, I would agree that you are entitled to your
opinion, regardless of you own level of professionalism or whether you
have ever posted a video.
By the way, swinging isn't reserved for jazz snobs. Listen to Rush's
"Fly By Night." It swings.
Five Sharp
What's there to be amazed about? A guy posts a clip of a guitarist that I
hardly know and it occurs to me it doesn't swing much and I say that. WTF?
So what? Is this the definitive and jazz review platform. It's just a
chatbox for crying out loud. Get some perspective. I listened to the clip
again and I'd say it again. Do I need to do a portfolio check on the artist
in question first? Do I need to do some scientific research first?
I never dissed EJ. Just said the whole thing sounded stiff and that's it. As
far as I am concerned he's the biggest thing in rock guitar in the universe.
I wouldn't know really ... Fine by me if he is.
A lot of these inflateds replies are just fanboy crap if you ask me.
#####
pmfan57
> "pmfan57" <jwrag...@aol.com> wrote
I do agree that for jazz instruments other than guitar (where most
people learn rock first) or piano (where most people learn classical
first) some aspect of jazz is usually played first, e.g., in band,
when it comes to horns and winds.
Although school programs start in elementary school with recorder, in
which they simply learn folk and classical melodies to start.
Five Sharp
> hey clay
> snip the rest ...
Finally a voice of reason. Thanks Joe.
#####
Tim McNamara
Jim Fogarty <jfo...@comcast.net> wrote:
LOL. P, K, B dude. You're funny.
Five Sharp
> Reading all these responses has been a gas........
>
> I'm an experienced pro musician, and a HUGE jazz MUSIC fan, although not
> much of a jazz player myself.
That last thing is SO obvious. You are spouting worn out cliches that belong
in alt.guitar. They gave me that shit there all the time until they saw my
blues and rock vids. Many players here have played and play other styles,
including me.
######
Tim McNamara
<0a8974d5-33e4-4ea2...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>,
JMK <jkai...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> On May 15, 1:39 pm, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
> > "Mark Guest" <Mark.C.Gu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > news:0daac6d9-a318-48de...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.c
> > om... On May 15, 11:53 am, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
> >
> > >Good enough to not get in a "dissing match" (TM applied for). If
> > >rock and blues players point their listeners to jazz, more power
> > >to 'em. The players on the clip aren't jazz players, for sure. But
> > >the portion of the clip I heard wasn't objectionable. Not great,
> > >or even that good, but maybe some kid will say "Wes who?" and find
> > >his/her way to jazz. Poor kid...
> >
> > Mark: It's funny the way you put that "poor kid" remark. 8-)
> > That brings a smile to my face.
> >
> > All kidding aside though, the old argument about finding out about
> > jazz via the rock route is something I never bought into. These
> > days even middle schools have stage bands so kids are finding out
> > about jazz via the Ellington/Basie route. ....joe
>
> Shame. That was my route. Stupid guitar player trying to get past a
> roadblock. Oh, hey, cool, what's this? Next thing you know the iPod
> nano's chockablock with Wes, Pass, Coryell, Grant Green, etcetcetc.
> Is that a less valid route? I cannot imagine why. Sometime the end
> points are all that matter. The rest is experience.
You get there how you get there. Jazz is no longer pop music heard on
the radio, but for quite a few years in the US it was. Times change,
tastes change and jazz has in many ways resisted change (oddly enough).
My route to jazz had several dimensions. The first was that it still
exists in the popular culture- lots of movie/TV show music and
advertising, for example. There's a certain amount of exposure I had
just being alive in America. The second dimension was moving from radio
pop/rock music into the music of people like Rory Gallagher (who played
sax in addition to guitar) and the Grateful Dead, who put a premium on
improvisation within the form and even free improvisation and used jazz
approaches (modes, altered scales, chord substitutions, for example).
That was what made me want to play guitar and prepared me for being open
to jazz. The third dimension was my college guitar teacher, a jazz
player who had a prewar L-7 and a wicked Bostonian sense of humor. He
had me hooked in my first lesson when he showed me a Gmaj7 chord. It
was like "wow, what's *this*? Cool!"
If kids outside of band class are getting exposure to jazz- and more
importantly, developing some appreciation for it- in junior high school
or high school, I think that's wonderful. I didn't know that was
happening; hell, with the NCLB crapola I didn't know any arts education
had survived the politicizing process.
Gerry
> If you happen to have a look at the Downbeat student music award issue
> sometime you'll see that jazz education is a big trend.
Certainly within the confines of jazz education, jazz education is
growing and changing all the time.
> I'm certain that you
> already appreciate the dimensions of this phenomemenon. We have to get past
> what we ourselves may have gone through. There are generations of kids up to
> the age of thirty or so who came through Eastman, New School, Manhattan,
> etc. and have had a first class conservatory education in the idiom.
I'm not sure what the point is. I didn't learn jazz in school, but got
there through rock. Many did. That's not good or bad but it's reality.
Others got there another way. That's not a value judgement or a
comment on society.
Gerry
You use my name above. I didn't write any of this and have made no
mention of the quality of EJ's playing.
Tim McNamara
tom walls <tw...@cornell.edu> wrote:
> In article <ec237e66-8ab1-4179-86a4-
> caa320...@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, jwra...@aol.com says...
> > I saw a show of country artists doing their versions of Rolling
> > Stones tunes. It was amazing. The fast bluegrass version of Wild
> > Horses was fantastic. Didn't sound like rock though.
> >
> What show was this, Joe? I'm intrigued.
There's a very nice bluegrass version of "Wild Horses" sung by Peter
Rowan on the "Old and In The Way" album.
As an aside, my wife took me to see David Bromberg and Angel Band last
fall for my birthday. Peter Rowan and the Tony Rice Unit were supposed
to be the opening act, but Rice was ill and so it was the Rowan Trio
that opened the show. Lots of people's voices lose the clarity and the
high end as they age, but Rowan's voice sounded pure and sweet and had
an unbelievably clear high register. If you'd closed your eyes, you'd
have thought he was still 25 and not 65. Very unusual lead guitar
style, too, for a guy associated with bluegrass.
Steven Bornfeld
> On May 15, 5:37 am, "Greger Hoel"
> <greg...@spameggssausagespamandsparm.crap> wrote:
>> På Thu, 15 May 2008 11:54:57 +0200, skrev Five Sharp
>> <hjgonst...@onsbrabantnet.nl>:
>>
>>> Why is this a Wes tribute? What exactly is the Wes content?
>> Thumbstrokes and octaves? I think Johnson sounds good, here, but listen to
>> the rhythm setcion! I don't think these guys play swing very much.
>>
>> --
>> Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram:http://www.opera.com/mail/
>
> will soon become quite apparent.
Clay, I hope you stay. I'll even buy some of your recordings. ;-)
Maybe for you this was the last straw But I think you're over-reacting.
People here slam others all the time, rightly or wrongly. Leaving
because they said something about your friend, well--my daughter does
that, and she's in middle school.
Steve
mikeo
fitting tribute to Wes. How is this any different really from Lee
Ritenour's tribute to Wes, or anyone else, really? Kevin Eubanks
version of Impressions on the wes tribute CD is much further away than
this piece by EJ.
Clay, i'm glad you mentioned that was Chris Maresh on bass - i thought
it resembled him a bit and always wondered what had become of him
after UT in the late 80's. I used to catch Chris all around Austin
with Kelly Gray Band, Scott Sherwood, James Haslanger ("Elias"), and
other fine Austin musicians. I think i was there too late to catch
you Clay, at least I missed the opportunity. I was always quite
awestruck at Chris' playing and will go visit his site right now.
I WOULD, however, like to know where Eric Johnson stands on metronomes
and their use.
pmfan57
> and their use.
Yes, perhaps a whole thread on the subject would be appropriate.
rakmanenuff
> I encourage anyone not familiar with Eric Johnson to check out some of
> his work. Listen to a few of his CDs. I think that THEN you will be
> able to see this video in the proper context. Then, and only then, if
> you still don't like it, I would agree that you are entitled to your
> opinion, regardless of you own level of professionalism or whether you
> have ever posted a video.
Eric Johnson is arguably strong at harmony, melody and composition,
he even sings, but not *as* strong when it comes to rhythm.
I noticed that immediately when I started listening to his music,
but I still love it regardless. I'm neither jazz nor rock.
I don't particularily agree with the way some jazz players appear to
see melody and soloing as two separate things, and I think they could
improve their soloing by injecting more melody into it.
Most of them are probably perfectly capable of playing
melodically but are too obsessed with runs.
But hey, they're jazz players, what do you expect.
As for the context of this video, yeah it's instructional and
not a performance, not the least bit interesting for this group
apart from highlighting the importance of rhythm.
Joe Finn
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> wrote
>I do agree that for jazz instruments other than guitar (where most
>people learn rock first) or piano (where most people learn classical
>first) some aspect of jazz is usually played first, e.g., in band,
>when it comes to horns and winds.
As a result guitar has become, for better or worse, the bastard step-child
of the academic world.
>Although school programs start in elementary school with recorder, in
>which they simply learn folk and classical melodies to start.
That's a good thing, too. .....joe
Joe Finn
>
> I'm not sure what the point is. I didn't learn jazz in school, but got
> there through rock. Many did. That's not good or bad but it's reality.
> Others got there another way. That's not a value judgement or a comment
> on society.
The point is that jazz is now a serious academic endeavor. It's something
that serious scholars, composers, and instrumentalists are devoting
themselves to. ....joe
Joe Finn
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote
>
> If kids outside of band class are getting exposure to jazz- and more
> importantly, developing some appreciation for it- in junior high school
> or high school, I think that's wonderful. I didn't know that was
> happening; hell,
At this point there is a whole generation of instructors with the experience
of having gone through a college level jazz program. So the quality of the
instruction is better than it was forty or fifty years ago. Lots of these
teachers are in the public schools. It's a rising tide that has been the
result of a trend that began decades ago. ........joe
hw
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:tc9o24hfi2f7mod8k...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 13:18:43 +0200, "hw" <nosp...@yahoo.com> wrote
> in message <g0h64n$ihg$02$1...@news.t-online.com> :
>
>>
>>"Five Sharp" <hjgon...@onsbrabantnet.nl> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>>news:ZxUWj.5350$4N1....@newsfe17.ams2...
>>> is this a Wes tribute? What exactly is the Wes content?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thumbstrokes and octaves?
>>>
>>>
>>> Granted, I know very little about EJ but in this clip all play stiff and
>>> unswinging and the impro (the hallmark of jazz) is missing. It's a
>>> pretty
>>> unconvincing tribute therefore IMHO.
>>>
>>> It probably sounds a bit like Joe Pass doing an SRV tribute.
>>>
>>> #####
>>>
>>
>>i prefer the other eric johnson ;)
>>
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtK7KjXbeo0&feature=related
>>
>
>
> I thought the guy in the first clip was the "other" Eric Johnson :)
> _________________________________________
> Kevin Van Sant
heh. i got "sweet and funky" and "makin whoopee" from itunes. anything else
i should be looking for?
Derek
Interesting comments. I teach part time and attact kids who want to
make their jazz ensembles at school. Had one start this week. Knows
CAGED chord stuff, minor pent and major scale.
Has a decent sense of timing. He wants to do the jazz thing because
it is the closest thing to being able to play the rock and blues he
loves the most at school and get credit for it.
He is NOT a jazz listener. I of course, will change that because he
gave me permission to. I have a 21 yr old currently who got bored
with the alt rock band he was in and wanted to learn jazz.
I think I have almost completely converted him. :-)
I myself have a solo chord melody gig tonight, and will play in a pop/
rock band on Sunday. I keep one foot in and out of both worlds,
though I spend MUCH more time pursuing jazz.
The 6 or so kids I have taught in the past 2 years jazz are the same
way. Jazz because it is offered at school, but rock is their first
love.
BTW, EJ has had a pretty strong influence on my rock playing recently,
and I love his introducing Wes to the rock world. He does a tune,
East Wes on his Cliffs of Dover disc that is a very nice tune.
However I don't expect him to swing like a jazz band since they are a
rock band.
Thanks for your observations. Makes for thoughtful conversation.
Joe Giglio
> On 2008-05-15 05:25:18 -0400, Lun <nulg...@gmail.com> said:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvyDYgl-rN8&feature=related
>
> > but he is still a great guitarist....
>
>
> I'm an experienced pro musician, and a HUGE jazz MUSIC fan, although
> it..........I've always had too much interest in LOTS of different
> music to devote the time necessary to JUST play one style.
>
> But anymore, I feel I'm lucky I avoided that trap.
>
> The attitudes expressed here are a perfect example of why jazz will
> always be a small, niche, elitist artform, locked in the ghetto of it's
> own making..............and why most jazz musicians (not all, but most)
> are pathetic, bitter, little whiners............angry because the rest
> of world doesn't bow down in respect for all the years of hard work
> they've put in on mastering the intricacies of the all-mighty ii/v/1.
>
> Maybe if you got your heads out of your own asses long enough to see
> beyond flatwounds and Polytones, you might enjoy what the rest of the
> musical world has to offer...........hell, even learn something, maybe?
>
> And surprise, surprise...........have you ever noticed the TRULY great
> ones don't have that kind of fucked-up, my-music-is-better-than-yours
> attitude, do they??
>
> Hmmmmm........
>
jim
just because someone doesn't like this or that musical performance
doesn't make them 'pathetic, bitter, little whiners' to quote your
reactionary stance; btw, i use only roundwounds (sometimes even a
plain 'G'), & often play a solid body, but yes i do sometimes use a
polytone - hoping someday to be strong enough to carry a tube amp to
a
gig.
i don't care in any significant way about this video, which has now
been revealed to be an instructional one anyway, what i care about is
how angry you & others seem to be about the criticizing of this
performance.
saying that it is not swinging, etc, is not jazz snobery it is just
an
opinion (one with which i agree).
if yngwie malmstein were to audition to replace joe pass as ella
fitzgerald's accompanist & played in his inimitable yngwie way, would
ella be a jazz snob for thinking his playing not swinging enough for
her tastes?
i truly don't see things as 'us vs. them' / 'jazz vs. rock', i just
call 'em as i see 'em, & take comfort in accepting that not everyone
can play everything...
joe giglio
Joe Finn
"paul" <pcsa...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> clay, I think it's wrong to judge someone's playing based on one clip.
> however, I think it's fine to say "I think that clip isn't swinging"
> or "I think that clip sucks" no matter who is playing. I think we can
> all agree you don't have to look at someone's resume to have an
> opinion on a piece of music.
Paul: I agree with what you're saying here. I didn't like the clip but I
don't think I expressed that in a disrespectful way. Several other
contributors noted the same thing. It's not a swinging clip.
I hope Clay won't boycott the newsgroup because of this.
I don't even like all of my own recordings. I can't stand to listen to some
of them anymore. .......joe
Gerry
That's very true.
cl...@claymoore.com
> On May 15, 5:37 am, "Greger Hoel"
>
> <greg...@spameggssausagespamandsparm.crap> wrote:
> > På Thu, 15 May 2008 11:54:57 +0200, skrev Five Sharp
> > <hjgonst...@onsbrabantnet.nl>:
>
> > > Why is this a Wes tribute? What exactly is the Wes content?
>
> > Thumbstrokes and octaves? I think Johnson sounds good, here, but listen to
> > the rhythm setcion! I don't think these guys play swing very much.
>
> > --
> > Sendt med Operas revolusjonerende e-postprogram:http://www.opera.com/mail/
>
> I think this might be my last post here for a while, for reasons that
> debates and so on, and I've largely kept my mouth shut, but I've got
> to tell you, Five Sharp, and Joe Finn how absolutely fucking clueless
> you are in some of these comments. Specifically this: the bassist on
> this video is Chris Maresh, whom I've worked with since @1984, when he
> was 18 years old and a recent transplant to Austin, TX. At age 19 he
> beat out a conservatory trained friend of mine for a bass chair in the
> Austin symphony, after playing upright bass for something like three
> years. Chris recorded with me on my first CD "Meeting Standards," and
> I also recorded with him on other unreleased sessions with Elias
> Haslanger and Ernie Watts. On the tune Relaxin' at Camarillo Chris
> sight-read the head on the intro, and I've never put anything in front
> of him, whether straight ahead jazz, funk, fusion, rock, or what have
> you, that he couldn't read down and play the shit out of at sight.
> Quite simply he's one of the best musicians I know, and that counts
> for a lot considering some of the company I've been fortunate to keep
> over the years.
>
> What I think pisses me off more than anything is how you guys - and
> playing based on one clip, especially when so may people on this group
> get their jollies posting clips on youtube of themselves playing with
> Aebersold records. Take a look at Chris's creds, then go back an look
> at yours, and see if you think you've got any business talking the
> shit you do.http://www.chrismaresh.com/disc.htmlandhttp://www.chrismaresh.com/bio.html.
>
> Clay
As the header states I would like to apologize to Greger, Dick, Joe
Finn, and everyone else or my stupid comments. I'm sure with a bit of
cooling down I would have been able to get my point across without
resorting to personal attacks. Thanks to Joe Giglio and everyone else
who responded with reasonable commentary, and as Joe said (in so many
words) it's not like me to jump on these kinds of soapboxes and start
throwing rocks. All I can say in my defense is I had just gotten back
from getting my wife and daughter on a flight with Southwest Airlines,
and their itinerary was all screwed up. We left the house at @ 8:45
a.m., and they didn't get to their destination in Portland until 1:00
a.m. this morning. No excuses though, for taking it out on you guys.
For me the only silver lining - besides the fact that you guys didn't
openly flame broil me - was learning about Chris's writing with the
Tosca String Quartet and Glover Gil and performance of that music with
Terry Bozzio. I need to get a copy of that.
Clay
Joe Finn
> Hey Joe,
>
> Interesting comments. I teach part time and attact kids who want to
> make their jazz ensembles at school. Had one start this week. Knows
> CAGED chord stuff, minor pent and major scale.
>
> Has a decent sense of timing. He wants to do the jazz thing because
> it is the closest thing to being able to play the rock and blues he
> loves the most at school and get credit for it.
>
> He is NOT a jazz listener. I of course, will change that because he
> gave me permission to. I have a 21 yr old currently who got bored
> with the alt rock band he was in and wanted to learn jazz.
>
> I think I have almost completely converted him. :-)
>
> I myself have a solo chord melody gig tonight, and will play in a pop/
> rock band on Sunday. I keep one foot in and out of both worlds,
> though I spend MUCH more time pursuing jazz.
>
> The 6 or so kids I have taught in the past 2 years jazz are the same
> way. Jazz because it is offered at school, but rock is their first
> love.
I take it your students are guitar players. Most of the other
instrumentalists are not burdened by the "rock is their first love" issue.
Guitar is a special case for this reason. It is not seen as a legitimate
instrument in certain academic circles as a result.
Your work is to be commended. Thanks for what you are doing on behalf of
your students. ................joe
cl...@claymoore.com
Hi Mike,
I'm sorry we missed each other, too, and a bit surprised, since I was
there during that time. Around 1988 Chris and I had a band with Steve
Vague, James Lakey, and Brannen Temple (who was 17 at the time) called
Up 'Gainst the Wall, our take on the "young lions" type of jazz that
Wynton and his tribe were doing. Unfortunately we only played out for
a few months before Brannen was "discovered" and took off to do other
things. But yeah, Chris and I did a lot of projects in those days. One
of our first was a ridiculous pop band called Four in the Morning that
was more about fashion than anything else. Every time I see him I tell
him the band is having a reunion, which always gets his goat.
Clay
Joe Finn
"woland99" <wola...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> One more time...
> The DVD on question "Art of Guitar" suppose to be INSTRUCTIONAL
> DVD - not a footage of EJ playing in the club. I have seen EJ live
> he can play much faster and much more interesting. The Youtube clip
> is simple a simplified etude in playing jazzy chords and octaves.
> It is not meant to be a musical tribute from EJ to Wes showing EJ's
> virtuosity. It is merely an etude for people that want to play more
> "jazzy". Ergo most of discussion here misses the point.
I'm a great believer in going directly to the source. If you want to find
out about Hemingway, read his novels. If you want to find out about Picasso,
go see his paintings and sculptures. If you want to find out about Wes,
listen to his recordings, look at his videos and study his transcriptions.
I didn't think the clip had any great instructional value. Students with a
general interest in jazz would be better served to deal directly with the
source material. .....joe
Joe Finn
news:2008051609275716807-somewhere@sunnycalif...
> On 2008-05-16 09:06:21 -0700, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> said:
>
>> "Gerry" <some...@sunny.calif> wrote
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what the point is. I didn't learn jazz in school, but got
>>> there through rock. Many did. That's not good or bad but it's reality.
>>> Others got there another way. That's not a value judgement or a comment
>>> on society.
>>
>>
>> The point is that jazz is now a serious academic endeavor. It's something
>> that serious scholars, composers, and instrumentalists are devoting
>> themselves to. ....joe
>
> That's very true.
Vive la difference!! ......joe
Joe Finn
>As the header states I would like to apologize to Greger, Dick, Joe
>Finn, and everyone else or my stupid comments. I'm sure with a bit of
>cooling down I would have been able to get my point across without
>resorting to personal attacks. Thanks to Joe Giglio and everyone else
>who responded with reasonable commentary, and as Joe said (in so many
>words) it's not like me to jump on these kinds of soapboxes and start
>throwing rocks. All I can say in my defense is I had just gotten back
>from getting my wife and daughter on a flight with Southwest Airlines,
>and their itinerary was all screwed up. We left the house at @ 8:45
>a.m., and they didn't get to their destination in Portland until 1:00
>a.m. this morning. No excuses though, for taking it out on you guys.
>For me the only silver lining - besides the fact that you guys didn't
>openly flame broil me - was learning about Chris's writing with the
>Tosca String Quartet and Glover Gil and performance of that music with
>Terry Bozzio. I need to get a copy of that.
:Clay
Clay: Thanks for your comments but you've got nothing to apologize to me
for, my friend. No harm, no foul. I've always enjoyed reading your comments
here and I sure hope you'll continue to contribute. .....joe
Joe Finn
> Reading all these responses has been a gas........
>
> I'm an experienced pro musician, and a HUGE jazz MUSIC fan, although not
> much of a jazz player myself. I used to beat myself up about
> it..........I've always had too much interest in LOTS of different music
> to devote the time necessary to JUST play one style.
>
> But anymore, I feel I'm lucky I avoided that trap.
>
> The attitudes expressed here are a perfect example of why jazz will always
> be a small, niche, elitist artform, locked in the ghetto of it's own
> making..............and why most jazz musicians (not all, but most) are
> pathetic, bitter, little whiners............angry because the rest of
> world doesn't bow down in respect for all the years of hard work they've
> put in on mastering the intricacies of the all-mighty ii/v/1.
>
> Maybe if you got your heads out of your own asses long enough to see
> beyond flatwounds and Polytones, you might enjoy what the rest of the
> musical world has to offer...........hell, even learn something, maybe?
>
> And surprise, surprise...........have you ever noticed the TRULY great
> ones don't have that kind of fucked-up, my-music-is-better-than-yours
> attitude, do they??
>
> Hmmmmm........
>
> - Jim
I love this post!! It's nice to see that we still get the occasional
over-the-top reactionary response complete with profanity, ad hominem
remarks, sweeping generalizations and what appear to be psychological
projections of bitterness, anger, etc.
Thanks, Jim!! .....joe
Elektrik Hendrik
> "woland99" <wolan...@gmail.com> wrote
Yeah , but is it wrong for a player in a different style to point to
some of his heroes in the jazz style? You make it sound like everyone
should skip playing non-jazz altogether and follow the school-jazz
program and going directly to the jazz masters without enjoying other
stuff. This is serious jazz-snobbery to me.
Tim McNamara
wrote:
> "Gerry" <some...@sunny.calif> wrote
> >
> > I'm not sure what the point is. I didn't learn jazz in school, but
> > got there through rock. Many did. That's not good or bad but it's
> > reality. Others got there another way. That's not a value
> > judgement or a comment on society.
>
>
> The point is that jazz is now a serious academic endeavor. It's
> something that serious scholars, composers, and instrumentalists are
> devoting themselves to.
In that case, jazz may really be dead.
Joe Finn
news:timmcn-E492F0....@news.iphouse.com...
You have to remember that more kids than ever are involved with this music.
On that basis it's more alive than ever and the future looks bright.
.....joe
Joe Finn
"Elektrik Hendrik" <elektri...@gmail.com> wrote
>
> Yeah , but is it wrong for a player in a different style to point to
> some of his heroes in the jazz style?
It's not so much that it's wrong but there are better ways to the top of the
hill.
> You make it sound like everyone
> should skip playing non-jazz altogether and follow the school-jazz
> program and going directly to the jazz masters without enjoying other
> stuff. This is serious jazz-snobbery to me.
I think a lot of guitar players feel this way. Since guitar is both a folk
instrument and an instrument serious composers and instrumentalists are
interested in there is an inherent conflict. Many are drawn to the folk
aspect of the guitar, learn four chords and discover that they can play most
of the popular material from Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen, etc. That's
fine as far as it goes.
If you wanted to become an engineer it could be a distraction to study the
history of Norway. Becoming a jazz musician does not require similar
unrelated knowledge. ........................joe
Gerry
If so, it's academic.
Gerry
>>> The point is that jazz is now a serious academic endeavor. It's
>>> something that serious scholars, composers, and instrumentalists are
>>> devoting themselves to.
>>
>> In that case, jazz may really be dead.
>
> You have to remember that more kids than ever are involved with this music.
> On that basis it's more alive than ever and the future looks bright.
Kids studying something at school, and then discarding it to get a job
at Taco Bell hardly makes it alive or says anything about the future.
I had to study a lot of stuff I didn't care about in school, including
art-related things that seemed interesting but were not.
There have always been tens of thousands of kids who played in
high-school band, marching or otherwise. And then dropped the
instrument the minute they graduated. I wonder what the percentage is
of "kids who play musical isntruments" becoming musicians, hobbyist or
otherwise, after that time in school. It would be interesting to know.
tomb...@jhu.edu
> and their use.
It all depends on what batteries you put in the metronome.
shawnab...@bellsouth.net
of music. I think this is a very entertaining thread. Life is good.
On May 16, 1:31 pm, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
> "Elektrik Hendrik" <elektrikhend...@gmail.com> wrote
Steven Bornfeld
I hate airports, and everything associated with the process of flying.
Considering I'd probably be throwing things were I in your place, your
reaction was rather mild.
Steve
Tim McNamara
Gerry <some...@sunny.calif> wrote:
> On 2008-05-16 10:19:53 -0700, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> said:
>
> >>> The point is that jazz is now a serious academic endeavor. It's
> >>> something that serious scholars, composers, and instrumentalists
> >>> are devoting themselves to.
> >>
> >> In that case, jazz may really be dead.
> >
> > You have to remember that more kids than ever are involved with
> > this music. On that basis it's more alive than ever and the future
> > looks bright.
>
> Kids studying something at school, and then discarding it to get a
> job at Taco Bell hardly makes it alive or says anything about the
> future. I had to study a lot of stuff I didn't care about in school,
> including art-related things that seemed interesting but were not.
But if they at least acquire enough taste for it to buy some records or
go to a concert or two, that would be good. Jazz needs an educated
audience just as much as educated musicians.
> There have always been tens of thousands of kids who played in
> high-school band, marching or otherwise. And then dropped the
> instrument the minute they graduated. I wonder what the percentage
> is of "kids who play musical isntruments" becoming musicians,
> hobbyist or otherwise, after that time in school. It would be
> interesting to know.
I saw Gene Bertoncini with a trio in St. Paul a few weeks ago. The
opening band was the University of Minnesota big band, and they kicked
butt. Good arrangements and some very good players. But I noticed
after they left the stage, most of them did not come back in to listen
to Gene's trio- even the guitarist didn't come back!
Gerry
> But if they at least acquire enough taste for it to buy some records or
> go to a concert or two, that would be good. Jazz needs an educated
> audience just as much as educated musicians.
Sure. That's a hopeful thought.
>> There have always been tens of thousands of kids who played in
>> high-school band, marching or otherwise. And then dropped the
>> instrument the minute they graduated. I wonder what the percentage
>> is of "kids who play musical isntruments" becoming musicians,
>> hobbyist or otherwise, after that time in school. It would be
>> interesting to know.
>
> I saw Gene Bertoncini with a trio in St. Paul a few weeks ago. The
> opening band was the University of Minnesota big band, and they kicked
> butt. Good arrangements and some very good players. But I noticed
> after they left the stage, most of them did not come back in to listen
> to Gene's trio- even the guitarist didn't come back!
Yeah. They've got their own priorities. I met Larry Coryell when I was
in college. Me and a buddy hunted him down in a motel room and chatted
with him all afternoon. He invited us to the gig he was playing
locally, and of course we went. Some things I liked, somethings I
didn't. Afterwards my buddy was hell-bent on jamming with him. Larry
asked what had happened to me; he said he was interested to find out if
I played as good as I talked. (I didn't.).
Where was I when I could have been jamming with Coryell? I had met a
girl at the club and got lucky. Between chasing skirt and jamming with
Coryell, the former was a vastly higher priority for me. Go figure.
Gerry
> It is funny when jazz snobs over simplify the playing of other types
> of music. I think this is a very entertaining thread. Life is good.
I think it's funny when people over-simply others in vague categories
like "jazz snobs" based on their like or dislike of one musician or
other. Unless you like everybody, in theory, somebody can call you a
jazz snob. If you do like everybody you can be accused of not being
very discriminating.
I agree about the life being good part.
Elektrik Hendrik
Gerry, read Finn's posts in this thread. This isn't about not liking
one musician.
shawnab...@bellsouth.net
On May 16, 7:19 pm, Gerry <somewh...@sunny.calif> wrote: