Jazz Trio in Vegas Req'd?
jazzbrother
looking for some entertainment (mostly backgound) for a business function
end of January '04.
Did it last year - booked through an agency - and got lounge-pop with a
singer. They were okay, but I find with a singer the audience has to either
listen or try to ignore. Plus it wasn't the music we wanted. Looking for
something more authentically jazz. Of course it's a business reception so
you know that at best people will be half-listening - mostly talking to each
other. Still I want to lend some CLASS to the event so I came to this NG!!!
Suggestions? (Please don't flame if I came to the wrong place!)
Nnajar828
Blue Monk
in as many notes in half a bar. There is a guitar player named Joe Lano out
in Vegas and he can get any group together for you with great players. But
it will cost you. Don't expect to pay amateur rates for professional
players. Anyway, he's listed in the phone book in Vegas. If you don't have
access to one, try http://www.swtichboard.com/
Monk
http://www.dreamtracks.com/
On 8/23/03 9:51 AM, in article
UjK1b.812063$ro6.16...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca, "jazzbrother"
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <UjK1b.812063$ro6.16...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca> :
Look up Ted Vieira. He is a regular contributer to this group and a
fine guitarist. And I think he's in Vegas.
his email is con...@tedvieira.com
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.
Alternate site for recent soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
Ted Vieira
sure where he's playing but I know he also works with UNLV.
A duo you should also check out is Raj Rathor and Diana Smith. You can find
there website at http://jazzcatrecords.com . I don't know if you're looking
for a vocalist, but this is a great jazz duo. I'm Raj (the guitarist) would
also work well for that situation if you're not looking for vocals for this
gig.
Ted Vieira
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
http://TedVieira.com
Bio Info, Free Online Guitar Instruction,
Instructional Books, Articles, hear my CDs and more...
--
Listen to my new solo jazz guitar CD, "Quiet Places"
at: http://tedvieira.com/cd.html
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
Ted Vieira
Thanks for the plug. Actally, I'm more up in the Reno/Tahoe area now. I like
Vegas better, but up here it's a little cooler and Reno/Tahoe wasn't as
affected by 9/11 as Vegas was. Also, my significant other is here (primary
reason :-)
Ted
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
http://TedVieira.com
Bio Info, Free Online Guitar Instruction,
Instructional Books, Articles, hear my CDs and more...
--
Listen to my new solo jazz guitar CD, "Quiet Places"
at: http://tedvieira.com/cd.html
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
> From: Kevin Van Sant <kvan...@pobox.com>
> Organization: Road Runner - NC
> Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz
jazzbrother
"Ted Vieira" <con...@tedvieira.com> wrote in message
news:BB6CE55D.1CF24%con...@tedvieira.com...
l5jazzman
> Well, Robert Conti hardly plays anything 'classy'.
Monk:
The idiotic statement you placed on this thread is an indication of YOUR
colossal ignorance and lack of class! Haw dare you take a cheap shot at a
musician of Conti's caliber. I was at his gig in Vegas in July when the
publisher of Just Jazz Guitar magazine was there to see his set, and was
absolutely amazed by Conti's talent. If you have not heard the man play a
ballad in person, then please go educate and inform yourself before
spouting such stupidity in print. Perhaps locate a copy of the solo direct
to disc that he recorded in 1979. Listen to it then read your post again!
L5
Blue Monk
entitled to my opinion. If you don't like it, that's your problem. Spending
energy on something like this, someone like you having a problem with
someone like me cause I don't find Conti's playing appealing, is not my
thing.
Monk
http://www.dreamtracks.com/
On 8/24/03 11:53 PM, in article
3633bd0b.03082...@posting.google.com, "l5jazzman"
l5jazzman
After reading the posts by Blue Monk, I am amazed at such a public
display of ignorance and I am compelled to respond at great length.
All I can envision is someone in a dingy tenement room with a single
light bulb hanging from the ceiling attempting to gain the respect of
the music world while remaining faceless behind a computer. Much like
those people we have all heard in the music store playing absolutely
horrible renditions of cover tunes trying to impress people or get
"discovered". They usually perceive themselves as experts on any facet
of music from equipment to artists.
Here is a thought; if you can play, you don't need to try and make
other players look bad to make yourself look good. I would never go
into an art museum and begin trashing master works of art because I
didn't understand them. I would simply say it doesn't suit my taste
and move on. The players that occasionally get slammed in the NG's
are or were out there making a living! Many are legends of our time.
Give them the respect and credit they deserve.
Don't judge these or any other players based on one exposure or what
you read in the NG. If someone only heard one of George Benson's
tunes (like Give Me the Night) and made the assumption assume he is a
pop artist that can't play guitar, it would certainly be incorrect.
Yet with that limited knowledge, people slam George and other great
guitarists out there actually making a living!
What pleasure does it give people like Monk to slam musicians? The
comments I've seen about about guitarists like Bruno, Pass and Conti
and Farlow being all technique remind of the three blind men and the
elephant. Each got to feel an elephant so they would know what it
looked like. On felt the leg, one the tail, one the trunk. When asked
what an elephant looked like, one said a tree, the next a thick snake,
and the last a rope. There are a lot of musically blind people in the
NGs making ridiculous (and harmful) uninformed statements about some
great musicians.
People hiding behind that all encompassing phrase "in my opinion".
An intelligent opinion is always based on complete information. Blue
Monk, clearly, you have no idea, not even a clue as to Conti's full
range of ability. I can assure you that guys like Bruno, Conti and
Farlow just to name a few can play beautiful chord melodies at slow
tempos, because I have heard them all perform, in person and many
times.
If I had a choice, my life long passion would be to play jazz guitar.
However, my profession requires nearly continuous travel all over the
world. I first saw Conti playing incredibly beautiful solos (on a
guitar with more strings than I would care to tangle with) in a very
classy hotel in upscale Newport Beach, California sometime in the mid
1990's. Monk, I place emphasis on the world classy. It is my
understanding that Conti performed in that hotel for nine or ten
years. Now Monk, employ some simple common sense and ask yourself why
a major first class hotel would have a musician remain that long?
Shouldn't be too hard for you to figure out.
On three subsequent trips to Las Vegas, I saw Conti at the Bellagio,
then again at a very upscale restaurant in the Paris hotel and very
recently at another great restaurant. Monk, in case you are unaware,
these are all very classy places. In fact after meeting and talking
with some other musicians who were thoroughly enjoying his
performance, I discovered that he plays nearly seven nights a week.
Monk, where are YOU playing, as I would like to come and actually hear
what it is that you can do that allows you to take a shot at a world
class musician? I don't recall ever seeing your picture on the cover
of Just Jazz Guitar or even a mention of your name. Did it ever occur
to you that his ability simply exceeds your level of comprehension.
Consider this, when you make such sweeping statements about Conti (or
any other player) you actually offend and affront the players and fans
who do enjoy his work, books and videos.
Here are some excerpts I have read in this NG about various guitarists
that I and most intelligent people consider to be top of the line
legends. The excerpts below speak volumes about the maturity, level
of musicianship, professionalism, character and class of some of the
people who post their "opinions" on this news group.
Jimmy Bruno
Jimmy's uninventive comping got in the way
he sounds as though he is just playing patterns or exercises
Joe Pass
I find these recordings incredibly lifeless
Countless reams of scales, end to end, never ending, expressionless,
phraseless, and very boring.
Robert Conti
you have to wonder why the incessant double-timing
He's all about squeezing in as many notes in half a bar
Tal Farlow
I can't take his loose approach to the time - not only is he not in
the pocket, he's nowhere near the goddam trousers
Monk, as extremely distasteful and ignorant as your comment was, the
intent of this post in not malicious, but merely a gentleman's effort
to get you to perhaps see yourself and the effects of the poison you
spew in print, through other eyes. Wake up.
L5
Keith Freeman
> I can't take his loose approach to the time - not only is he not in
> the pocket, he's nowhere near the goddam trousers
saying "that's not to my taste", which you seem to admit is permissible
("I would simply say it doesn't suit my taste
and move on.") The comment was also made in a light-hearted vein. I think
it's perfectly legitimate for us to talk to each other about our likes
and dislikes, and so do most of the participants in this group.
Funny how reactions like yours seem to pop up every time Conti is
mentioned, then the "reactor" ;-} disappears from the group again...
-Keith
Audio samples and tips at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/FreeKeithMan
Kevin Van Sant
message <3633bd0b.03082...@posting.google.com> :
>Here are some excerpts I have read in this NG about various guitarists
>that I and most intelligent people consider to be top of the line
>legends. The excerpts below speak volumes about the maturity, level
>of musicianship, professionalism, character and class of some of the
>people who post their "opinions" on this news group.
Let it go L5.. it's ok if someone has the opinion that a guitarist
widely regarded as "legendary" was comping insensitively at a gig or
any other opinion that might be put forth. For the most part, people
here do a good job of distinguishing their opinions from statement of
absolute fact. What would we ever talk about in this group if we
didn't have a wide array of opinions?
Gerry Scott-Moore
<L5ja...@aol.com> wrote:
Note below I am attacking the arguments, not the person.
> All I can envision is someone in a dingy tenement room with a single
> light bulb hanging from the ceiling attempting to gain the respect of
> the music world while remaining faceless behind a computer. Much
> like those people we have all heard in the music store playing
> absolutely horrible renditions of cover tunes trying to impress
> people or get "discovered". They usually perceive themselves as
> experts on any facet of music from equipment to artists.
There's always somebody bad-rapping other players. That's life. It's
known outside the world of music. Sometimes the criticism is
unwarranted, sometimes it is. Frequently it's based on a limited
aesthetic, and frequently that limitation is known and understood. For
example, some rock players admit they know nothing of jazz but insist
Hendrix was the greatest guitarist of all times.
> Here is a thought; if you can play, you don't need to try and make
> other players look bad to make yourself look good.
No one admits to doing this. But most of us will admit to having
"opinions" about others that are negative. In this way we form an
aesthetic. Either you are indicating we should not STATE our negative
opinions, or you are capable of judging our playing ability by
listening to our opinions (the DWmbl theorem). I find both ideas
difficult to accept.
> I would never go into an art museum and begin trashing master works
> of art because I didn't understand them.
On the other hand if you thought you did understand them, and
vigorously disagreed with their approach, it would sound just like you
were trashing them, no?
> I would simply say it doesn't suit my taste and move on. The players
> that occasionally get slammed in the NG's are or were out there
> making a living!
Money is not an artisitic credential. Are you saying unless you are
making a living at music, you can't be a masterful player?
> Many are legends of our time. Give them the respect and credit they
> deserve.
They get the credit they deserve. And the credit shifts with fashions,
tastes and the periodic rewriting of history--the gauges we use for
distributing "credit". Louis Armstrong was a shuffling tom playing
cornball music there for a few decades according to some. He has
slowly been resurrected over the past 10-15 years. An amazing feat.
Now, again, he is one of the most important musicians in history.
> Don't judge these or any other players based on one exposure or what
> you read in the NG. If someone only heard one of George Benson's
> tunes (like Give Me the Night) and made the assumption assume he is a
> pop artist that can't play guitar, it would certainly be incorrect.
> Yet with that limited knowledge, people slam George and other great
> guitarists out there actually making a living!
So what? Everybody has an opinion. And with time that opinion gets
shaped and modified. I thought Kessel stunk and couldn't bad-rap him
enough. Then he became a demi-god to me. Go figure. My opinions were
right both times--because they were about my viewpoint, not about some
irrefutable evaluation of his skill or mine.
> What pleasure does it give people like Monk to slam musicians?
What pleasure does it give you to slam Monk?
> The comments I've seen about about guitarists like Bruno, Pass and
> Conti and Farlow being all technique remind of the three blind men
> and the elephant. Each got to feel an elephant so they would know
> what it looked like. On felt the leg, one the tail, one the trunk.
> When asked what an elephant looked like, one said a tree, the next a
> thick snake, and the last a rope. There are a lot of musically blind
> people in the NGs making ridiculous (and harmful) uninformed
> statements about some great musicians.
It's a good analogy about our inability to grasp the whole of things.
Antonio Carlos Jobim once said in an interview, "Kids today; the don't
understand that music is not a motorcycle, music is not a red shirt."
The crux--our popular musics are as much informed by fashion and tastes
as it is the aural experience.
The major problem with your elephant/blind man analogy is that music is
not an elephant. Quite the contrary, it is pure abstract. The only
truly abstract art there is, actually; the only art that has no static
physical substance.
So we are ALL blind men by definition. We can't "feel" it in a
physical irrefutable way. We can't weigh it, measure it or anlayze it
in any functional way.
In this case. The blind men are the only ones that can judge it. Four
different ways and all of them are right.
> People hiding behind that all encompassing phrase "in my opinion".
You would prefer we "hide behind" irrefutable fact in the assessment of
popular musics? And where would we find that?
> An intelligent opinion is always based on complete information.
There is no such thing as complete information relative to the arts.
Art is by definition not limited to information. Expression is as
valid in an artist, doing anything they like as "art", as it is in the
audience member who assesses anything they like in whatever way they
like.
> Blue Monk, clearly, you have no idea, not even a clue as to Conti's
> full range of ability. I can assure you that guys like Bruno, Conti
> and Farlow just to name a few can play beautiful chord melodies at
> slow tempos, because I have heard them all perform, in person and
> many times.
Though based on personal experiential, it's till an opinion you're
proffering here, or "hiding" behind, if that's the utility of opinion.
Or are you saying that it is fact, based on "complete" information?
Everytime you say one of these guys perform beautifully, somebody else
with the same "information" when home bored and unimpressed. Or are
you saying that everyone in the hall got the same "information" and had
the same response to the encounter?
> If I had a choice, my life long passion would be to play jazz guitar.
> However, my profession requires nearly continuous travel all over the
> world. I first saw Conti playing incredibly beautiful solos (on a
> guitar with more strings than I would care to tangle with) in a very
> classy hotel in upscale Newport Beach, California sometime in the mid
> 1990's. Monk, I place emphasis on the world classy.
Which part of the elephant are you groping now. The cage? The wood
appointments, the fine crystal glasses, the heavy silverware, the
attendant cocktail service? Which part of the music is a "classy" room?
> It is my understanding that Conti performed in that hotel for nine or
> ten years. Now Monk, employ some simple common sense and ask
> yourself why a major first class hotel would have a musician remain
> that long? Shouldn't be too hard for you to figure out.
If it is so very easy to figure out, then please state it explicitly.
Understanding a musician "completely" doesn't have to do with his
resume or the places that hire him. I've heard high art in cheap joints
and shlock in places that cost a week's salary for dinner.
The relationship between art and who exhibits it and how that place
looks is wholly and completely irrelevant in every respect. Tying
quality in music to some completely external commercial credentials, is
a very thin argument indeed.
> On three subsequent trips to Las Vegas, I saw Conti at the Bellagio,
> then again at a very upscale restaurant in the Paris hotel and very
> recently at another great restaurant. Monk, in case you are unaware,
> these are all very classy places. In fact after meeting and talking
> with some other musicians who were thoroughly enjoying his
> performance, I discovered that he plays nearly seven nights a week.
Where he works and who likes him doesn't give any credibility to his
music. "Everybody" liked Rudy Vallee at one time, and paid him
significant money at high-dollar venues. Did that make him a great
singer? Al Hirt. Johnny Ray. Pearl Bailey. How kind do you think
history will be to these people--SRO artists all with legions of fans.
> Monk, where are YOU playing, as I would like to come and actually
> hear what it is that you can do that allows you to take a shot at a
> world class musician? I don't recall ever seeing your picture on the
> cover of Just Jazz Guitar or even a mention of your name.
Shouldn't we name this particularly gutless argument? "If you can't do
it you can't judge". We should call it a "Number 4" or something...
Only those who play as well as Conti have the "credentials" to have an
opinion by which Conti is judged? Is that what you mean? If so, you'll
have to prove that you play as well as Conti too in order to validate
that he plays well. Why doesn't this sad old whore of an argument work
both ways, I wonder?
> Did it ever occur to you that his ability simply exceeds your level
> of comprehension. Consider this, when you make such sweeping
> statements about Conti (or any other player) you actually offend and
> affront the players and fans who do enjoy his work, books and videos.
Why doesn't this one cut both ways either? Many people believe that
Kenny G is an amazing talent. Is the fact that many musicians think
he's witless a demonstration of the fact that we don't "comprehend" his
limited skills for what they really are--true mastery? Perhaps only
generally uneducated folk know the "pure" "unpretentious" quality of
his music?
> Here are some excerpts I have read in this NG about various
> guitarists that I and most intelligent people consider to be top of
> the line legends.
Until such time as the Patriot Act II is made law, we're still legally
allowed to have an opinion, AND to express it--usually with only the
threat of incarceration.
Essentially I'm only deconstructing your debate. I don't know Conti's
music, and love most everything I've heard of Farlow. Not that it
matters. If another thinks both of them are talentless bozos it's
okay. I have no emotional investment in public assessment their
talent.
I'm unsure why you feel you do. It seems as if an attack against
Conti's playing is an attack against YOU. The inference may be that if
Conti really isn't very talented then your opinion of him must be
flawed. So your real issue is the tacit indication that your opinion
is flawed?
--
///---
Henry Moon
Another interest:
Trying to clearly define the difference between 'judging' and 'evaluating.'
Henry
Keith Freeman
> Conti's playing is an attack against YOU.
criticizes Conti again... (and then it'll probably under a different alias)
Dave
> criticizes Conti again... (and then it'll probably under a different alias)
Maybe L5 has a meaningful life like I do. It would seem this post (and
one previous to it)is directed at me to some degree, since I usually
post when I read something about Robert Conti that gets my attention,
and I use willig when my real name is Dave. That's not an alias, it is
a difference between my email address and my middle name which is what
I go by.
I don't check these news groups everyday like some posters must. As
everybody knows who has seen my posts I am a big Conti supporter
because his books and tapes made a big difference in my playing.
Occasionally when I am bored like I am on this holiday weekend, I take
a break and do a search on the News Group for my favorite players or
subjects. If I see something that really gets my attention (like this
drivel), I may make a post.
While I am very happy with my playing these days I have no delusions
of where I fit in the pecking order of great guitarists. I play local
jazz gigs both solo and with groups. That's it. Pat Martino won't be
calling me to do any guest features on his next CD. I rarely post on
these groups because (unlike yourself) I don't feel qualified to give
people advice on how to play guitar. I would prefer to leave that to
the great players who really know what they are talking about. I fly
airplanes, that is where my area of expertise is and I am highly
qualified in that domain to teach and give accurate expert advice.
I have seen some very scary information disseminated by inexperienced
private pilots on groups like this related to aviation. I have no
doubt the same level of misinformation abounds in this news group. If
something is inflammatory to me, I like to throw my 2 cent opinion
into the fray just like everybody else.
I did a Tal Farlow search and found the thread that was referenced in
this post. Lets face it Keith, your playing (in my opinion) hardly
qualifies you to be the guitar expert or authority that you would like
us all to think you are. I am squarely with L5 as far as flaming
players like Tal Farlow, Jimmy Bruno or Robert Conti. Players of
their caliber (most certainly not yours) define the standard most of
us strive to reach. Kind people don't make comments like yours -
light hearted or not. Tal Farlow was a great guitar player who is no
longer with us and I believe that any intelligent and respectful
musician would agree that he qualifies for far more respect than what
you gave him.
If I don't respond in your time frame, or at all, it is not because I
am hiding or disappearing. Unlike yourself, my life doesn't revolve
around a newsgroup.
Dave
Dave
> Note below I am attacking the arguments, not the person.
I get the distinct feeling you would take any side just to foster
your debating skills. Reminds me of a lawyer I use to know........
Gerry Scott-Moore
<wil...@kingwoodcable.com> wrote:
> > Note below I am attacking the arguments, not the person.
>
> I get the distinct feeling you would take any side just to foster
> your debating skills. Reminds me of a lawyer I use to know........
Not so, but I see you'd rather talk address me than the topic.
The reality is I always get irked by the "topic" that opinions vary in
their validity based on whether the critic is "good" as viewed by yet
another person Nat Hentoff can't play jazz to my knowledge, or at
least doesn't hold himself up as a player, yet his reviews are
encompass a lifetime of jazz listening as a point of reference. I
consider it valid even when I disagree with his conclusions.
As such the bullshit "if you can't play as good as X, you can't think
he sucks" is only proffered when somebody has no argument left. But why
should they argue anyway? Does everybody HAVE to like Conti and
Farlow?
Apprently, yes.
--
///---
Gerry Scott-Moore
<wil...@kingwoodcable.com> wrote:
> I rarely post on these groups because (unlike yourself) I don't feel
> qualified to give people advice on how to play guitar. I would prefer
> to leave that to the great players who really know what they are
> talking about.
And teachers too? Or just people who can actually do it, though
perhaps are ill-equipped to discuss it?
Note we've switched from having valid opinions about a player to be
qualified dispensers of "advice".
> I did a Tal Farlow search and found the thread that was referenced in
> this post. Lets face it Keith, your playing (in my opinion) hardly
> qualifies you to be the guitar expert or authority that you would
> like us all to think you are.
What qualifications are necessary to have an opinion on a recording
artist?
> I am squarely with L5 as far as flaming players like Tal Farlow,
> Jimmy Bruno or Robert Conti. Players of their caliber (most
> certainly not yours) define the standard most of us strive to reach.
Is there a way to discuss Farlow and Conti's skills without discussing
Keith's?
> Kind people don't make comments like yours - light hearted or not.
All opinions should be positive and all reviews should be flattering?
> Tal Farlow was a great guitar player who is no longer with us and I
> believe that any intelligent and respectful musician would agree that
> he qualifies for far more respect than what you gave him.
I think (I can do this forever!) that you're definitions of "kind"
"great players" "value" "quality" "substance" and every other damn
thing are just as valid as those who happen, but by some bizarre
accident of genetic hapinstance not to like the same players you do.
I realize that if my opinion differs from yours or L5, that as a
guitarist I will have, by definition, lost some of my abilities.
--
///---
Richard Bornman
"Gerry Scott-Moore" <222...@adelphia.net.invalid> wrote :
> The reality is I always get irked by the "topic" that opinions vary in
> their validity based on whether the critic is "good" as viewed by yet
> another person.
Gerry,
Do you therefore accord every opinion the same weight?
Keith Freeman
> one previous to it)is directed at me to some degree, since I usually
> post when I read something about Robert Conti that gets my attention,
> and I use willig when my real name is Dave. That's not an alias, it is
> a difference between my email address and my middle name which is what
> I go by.
emailed me. It just struck me that Conti supporters only seemed to
chip in when Conti was criticized, I didn't see them participating in
any other threads, and they didn't give proper names. I may have been
guilty of jumping to conclusions!
> While I am very happy with my playing these days I have no delusions
> of where I fit in the pecking order of great guitarists. I play local
> jazz gigs both solo and with groups. That's it.
That's my own position, except I haven't yet played my first proper
gig! So far my only "public" appearances have been students' concerts
at the four summer courses I've attended and a couple of open days at
the local music school (and a set at the North Sea Jazz Festival, but
that was just the music school combo playing a warm-up). The
recording(s?) of mine you listened to on the web were my first ever
recording effort, too. I've reported all this on the group. If you are
not a regular reader I think it is unfair of you to judge me from the
snippets you have seen.
> Lets face it Keith, your playing (in my opinion) hardly
> qualifies you to be the guitar expert or authority that you would like
> us all to think you are.
I don't know where you get the idea I am putting myself forward as an
authority. Very often when I offer advice I say "this is what I
learned from Garrison Fewell". I am simply sharing my insights, in
gratitude for those I have received from other group members (and
Garrison).
> Tal Farlow was a great guitar player who is no
> longer with us and I believe that any intelligent and respectful
> musician would agree that he qualifies for far more respect than what
> you gave him.
I've never questioned Tal's status, I've merely said his playing is
not to my taste (and then with qualifications, as I have one record of
his which I do like) and given my reason.
-Keith
Gerry Scott-Moore
Bornman <richard...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> > The reality is I always get irked by the "topic" that opinions vary in
> > their validity based on whether the critic is "good" as viewed by yet
> > another person.
>
> Do you therefore accord every opinion the same weight?
Not at all. I gauge what I can from context and what I know of
someone's experience, or if they are a player, their abilities. A teen
who can't tune a guitar properly can tell me Kessel sucks and Metheny
rules and I don't give it any weight at all (nor would I if the name's
were reversed).
But he doesn't get a spanking for being a bad player, having a "wrong"
opinion, or not showing the appropriate amount of cultural respect.
My complete disregard of his opinion is an opinion as well; mine.
Neither opinion is "more valid" than the other. He doesn't have to
listen to Kessel till he gets his mind right. To what end? He wants to
listen to what he likes and so do I.
--
///---
l5jazzman
> > I would prefer to leave that to the great players who really know what they are talking about.
>
> And teachers too? Or just people who can actually do it, though
> perhaps are ill-equipped to discuss it?
I think most local teachers suck once you get to an advanced level.
If they were that advanced they probably wouldn't have time to teach
full time. They would be in demand for their playing. I would rather
spend a day with a top player who communicated poorly than a local
cat. The cream rises to the top in any profession. Your best
doctors, musicians, lawyers, writers, builders, carpenters etc are
usually out there doing it and making a living at it. I think
generally speaking the full time players like Conti, Bruno, Martino,
and others are eons above of the members in this group as far as
their playing goes. Those are the guys I would want to learn from,
not Billy Bob at Guitar Center. I heard Tal was ill equipped to
discuss his playing but a lot of people learned a lot from him.
Fortunately (according to you) my opinion is valid and there should be
no argument on this issue.
>
> What qualifications are necessary to have an opinion on a recording
> artist?
>
If I have read all you have written correctly your position is very
simple. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, everyone's opinion is
valid. I think that is crap. A lot of people had an opinion Hitler
would stop after he took over Poland, some thought he was a great
leader, some think the Holocost never happened. Some people really
don't have the knowledge to make an accurate opinion. Even if they do
have the knowledge sometimes they should keep it to themselves. If I
see a man with a large purple birth mark on his face I wouldn't go up
to him and say, "You look like shit with that birthmark". Even if he
is comfortable with himself that would be rude and disrespectful. I
wouldn't tell a kid at a talent show they sang off key and really
sucked. It's just the way I was raised. I wouldn't slam guitar greats
or not so greats even if I don't like what they play. It seems the
bop players get most of the derogatory comments. Hardly anybody
knocks Grant Green. I think that is indicative of a lack of
understanding, or sensory overload due to the complexity and speed of
the bop lines. Maybe the posters haven't grown enough musically to
get it.
> >All opinions should be positive and all reviews should be flattering?
>
I consider this our own fraternity. I don't have much use for making
negative, unflattering comments about my fellow musicians.
> I think (I can do this forever!)
That's NOT what she said.
that you're definitions of "kind"
> "great players" "value" "quality" "substance" and every other damn
> thing are just as valid as those who happen, but by some bizarre
> accident of genetic hapinstance not to like the same players you do.
I appreciate your validation of every post in this group including
mine. I still think there is little to be gained by derogatory
statements regarding a persons playing.
>
> I realize that if my opinion differs from yours or L5, that as a
> guitarist I will have, by definition, lost some of my abilities.
Wow, that's an altered extension of the post, but so be it.
I would just like to see the derogatory comments about players go
away. I don't think it serves a purpose. I stand by my original post
and will continue to post if I think somebody's valid opinion is full
of shit.
L5
l5jazzman
The
> recording(s?) of mine you listened to on the web were my first ever
> recording effort, too. I've reported all this on the group. If you are
> not a regular reader I think it is unfair of you to judge me from the
> snippets you have seen.
Your response to willig outlines the crux of my original post about
Blue Monk's comments regarding Conti not playing anything classy. Too
many players are judged by a narrow look. If you only saw Conti
playing bop on his web site, he would be a screamer, if you only saw
him doing ballads and chord melodies at a cocktail party you could say
he didn't have chops. That is why I called this post unfounded
comments. Keith, the information used to formulate opinions about
you, your playing, and your comments were based on a narrow view.
That same formula is used to slam guys like Conti and Farlow and
hundreds of others. Also the experience level of some of the people
in this group is just not advanced enough to even grasp what some of
these players are doing. It just flat pisses me off.
L5
Keith Freeman
> hundreds of others.
of one aspect of a person's playing is not "slamming". If people can't take
*any* criticism of their idols, perhaps this group, where we try to discuss
our opinions, experiences and prejudices openly, is not for them...
Gerry Scott-Moore
<L5ja...@aol.com> wrote:
> > And teachers too? Or just people who can actually do it, though
> > perhaps are ill-equipped to discuss it?
>
> I think most local teachers suck once you get to an advanced level.
> If they were that advanced they probably wouldn't have time to teach
> full time. They would be in demand for their playing.
Perhaps it's only been said 30 or 40 times over the past 6-8 months;
just because one CAN play according to some third party doesn't mean
they'd rather shift careers from teaching. Some people chose to teach
as a profession without being a failure at anything at all.
> > What qualifications are necessary to have an opinion on a recording
> > artist?
> >
> If I have read all you have written correctly your position is very
> simple. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, everyone's opinion is
> valid. I think that is crap.
A compelling viewpoint and a great conversation ending. If this is a
viewpoint, you're free to it.
> A lot of people had an opinion Hitler would stop after he took over
> Poland,
That would be a prediction. Nobody goes to their death if they don't
like Tal Farlow. Any reference to Hitler to make a point about validity
of opinion in popular music is a long way to go for nothing.
> some thought he was a great leader,
Some of these people were "qualified" experts too. And, as it turned
out their opinions weren't of much value. So much for additional
"validity" conferred by credentials.
> some think the Holocost never happened.
That would be a matter of disputing facts, not opinion. But your point
is well made that no opinion on anything is any more (and by
implication, less) valid than another. You're doing all the heavy
lifting for me.
> Some people really don't have the knowledge to make an accurate
> opinion.
If we've strayed back to the topic of music, "accuracy" isn't a
component of liking someone's note-choice, groove, tone, articulation,
etc.
> > >All opinions should be positive and all reviews should be
> > >flattering?
> >
> I consider this our own fraternity. I don't have much use for making
> negative, unflattering comments about my fellow musicians.
And you insist that your attitude be demonstrated by others? And so
your viewpoint, or reticence to provide one, shouldn't really be seen
as truthful, necessarily, but socially responsible? Poltically correct,
then.
> > I realize that if my opinion differs from yours or L5, that as a
> > guitarist I will have, by definition, lost some of my abilities.
>
> Wow, that's an altered extension of the post, but so be it.
Keith purportedly doesn't like Conti, so his abilities get called into
question, that seemed pretty direct.
--
///---
Gerry Scott-Moore
> That is why I called this post unfounded comments. Keith, the
> information used to formulate opinions about you, your playing, and
> your comments were based on a narrow view. That same formula is used
> to slam guys like Conti and Farlow and hundreds of others.
Is it acceptable to do this to Keith but not to Farlow?
--
///---
l5jazzman
I didn't do it to either one.
L5