On Feb 7, 3:03 pm, "Gill Smith" <gill.smith....@googlemail.com> wrote:
> never heard the term before
> apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs from
> the
> 19302/40s
It describes how jazz musicians have been harmonizing those songs
since the 1940s. I don't know of any 1930s popular songwriters who
wrote those changes.
> apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs > from
> the
> 19302/40s
It describes how jazz musicians have been harmonizing those songs
since the 1940s. I don't know of any 1930s popular songwriters who
wrote those changes.
II-B7-I is called a "First modality" progression because it moves in fifths downward. It's the most common progression in popular jazz, even more common than the blues progression. In fact the standard Jazz blues uses ii-v7-I-v7 for the last phrase of the blues a lot of the time.
For a nice trick in dealing with this progression take a stack of 12 (or if you feel brave, 15) lined notecards and draw a staff on each one, broken up to 4 bars. Over each one write the chords for a ii-V7-I progression with the final I chord taking two bars. Then in the measures draw the scale of each chord, leaving the chord tones empty and filling the other notes in the scale. (just as a guide) Now shuffle your cards and pull as many as you like out and line them up, eitehr as two bar or four bar phrases, and play whatever you drew out of the pack.It's like instant jazz chord progressions.I still have a set of these cards in a binder somewhere, even though I can no longer use them. I bet someone could create a program where I could sort them randomly, though.
I learned this in a jazz improv class a while back, and it's been useful. If your'e really into learning this progression Jamey Abersold has a CD of nothing but these progressions to jam over, just a rhythm section and no melodies. I have it around here somewhere, and it's useful stuff. (They also have a couple of records of just blues, too)
In article <0s2dnZpLfP4IHqzSnZ2dnUVZ8g-dn...@brightview.co.uk>,
"Gill Smith" <gill.smith....@googlemail.com> wrote:
> never heard the term before
> apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American > songs from the 19302/40s
That terminology has been around for many years. It's usually expressed in Roman numerals with capital numerals for major chords and lower case for minor chords: ii - V - I
In G, for example that's Amin7 - D7 - Gmaj7
Or there's I - vi- ii - V- I
such as Gmaj7 - Emin7 - Amin7 - D7 - Gmaj7
Play those and you'll recognize the chord patterns heard in tens of thousands of songs.
The blues is typically a I - IV - V ( G7 - C7 - D7).
Then there's the Nashville system used in country music which uses Arabic rather than Roman numerals.
-- This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in
unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in.
> apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs > from
> the
> 19302/40s
>>>It describes how jazz musicians have been harmonizing those songs
>>>since the 1940s. I don't know of any 1930s popular songwriters who
>>>wrote those changes.
That is an interesting point. The way in which the dominant cadence was set up back in the 1930s was indeed a bit different. I am thinking of tunes of that era such as After You've Gone, Sweet Sue, Ain't Misbehavin', Zing Went the Strings, Three Little Words, etc. Diminished chords and minor 6ths were in style so you didn't get that strong ii-V7 sound as much as what came later. Then again there is Tea For Two to consider. That one has a pretty definitive ii-V7-I thing happening. .....joe
-- Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net Or say hello via Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home
> > apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs
> > from
> > the
> > 19302/40s
> >>>It describes how jazz musicians have been harmonizing those songs
> >>>since the 1940s. I don't know of any 1930s popular songwriters who
> >>>wrote those changes.
> That is an interesting point. The way in which the dominant cadence was set
> up back in the 1930s was indeed a bit different. I am thinking of tunes of
> that era such as After You've Gone, Sweet Sue, Ain't Misbehavin', Zing Went
> the Strings, Three Little Words, etc. Diminished chords and minor 6ths were
> in style so you didn't get that strong ii-V7 sound as much as what came
> later. Then again there is Tea For Two to consider. That one has a pretty
> definitive ii-V7-I thing happening. .....joe
> --
> Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net > Or say hello via Facebook:http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home
But IV V I has been used before jazz existed. ii V I is pretty
similar, don't you think, but with a different (stronger) bass
movement.
> Then again there is Tea For Two to consider. That one has a pretty
> definitive ii-V7-I thing happening.
>>>That's a good counter-example. Do you think those were in the original
>>>sheet music?
I don't have the original sheet music. The fake books generally have ii-V7-I harmonies though. I'm not sure how else you would play that one. Maybe somebody out there has the sheet music? ....joe
> > apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs
> > from
> > the
> > 19302/40s
> >>>It describes how jazz musicians have been harmonizing those songs
> >>>since the 1940s. I don't know of any 1930s popular songwriters who
> >>>wrote those changes.
> That is an interesting point. The way in which the dominant cadence was > set
> up back in the 1930s was indeed a bit different. I am thinking of tunes of
> that era such as After You've Gone, Sweet Sue, Ain't Misbehavin', Zing > Went
> the Strings, Three Little Words, etc. Diminished chords and minor 6ths > were
> in style so you didn't get that strong ii-V7 sound as much as what came
> later. Then again there is Tea For Two to consider. That one has a pretty
> definitive ii-V7-I thing happening. .....joe
> --
> Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net > Or say hello via Facebook:http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home
But IV V I has been used before jazz existed. ii V I is pretty
similar, don't you think, but with a different (stronger) bass
movement.
Let's not forget IIb-V7-I, which has also been used a lot dating back to the Baroque era, though of course the first chord is usually in first inversion. (I always liked to think of the Neopolitan chord as also a VI6, but with an altered top note to give better tone movement)
>Just curious if you've also never heard of the hoola hoop. It also
>takes a while to get the hang of.
>-TD
It requires a repetitive gyrating motion, and can cause people to back
away slowly, saying "what the hell is that weirdo tryng to do?". So
it is indeed similar to the Hoola Hoop.
> > apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs
> > from
> > the
> > 19302/40s
> >>>It describes how jazz musicians have been harmonizing those songs
> >>>since the 1940s. I don't know of any 1930s popular songwriters who
> >>>wrote those changes.
> That is an interesting point. The way in which the dominant cadence was > set
> up back in the 1930s was indeed a bit different. I am thinking of tunes of
> that era such as After You've Gone, Sweet Sue, Ain't Misbehavin', Zing > Went
> the Strings, Three Little Words, etc. Diminished chords and minor 6ths > were
> in style so you didn't get that strong ii-V7 sound as much as what came
> later. Then again there is Tea For Two to consider. That one has a pretty
> definitive ii-V7-I thing happening. .....joe
> --
> Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net > Or say hello via Facebook:http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home >>But IV V I has been used before jazz existed. ii V I is pretty
>>similar, don't you think, but with a different (stronger) bass
>>movement.
Agreed. You will find V I even in the earliest examples. History is full of variations on this cadence. ......joe
In article <e070a9c2-e0cb-4b45-8191-33149022c...@j15g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
335 <335pla...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 8, 6:56 am, Jerry Freedman <jerry.freedman...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 7, 4:02 pm, matt <matelomit...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > much of today's music is 1-1-1
> > It doesn't take fancy harmony to make good music. Bluegrass players
> > have been doing just fine with 3 or 4 chords.
> what is "fancy" harmony?
Any song with something other than a I chord involved.
OK, not exactly bluegrass played by not exactly bluegrass musicians.
But an interesting take on "Naima" nonetheless, despite the lack of much improvisation.
-- This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in
unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in.
> > apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs > > from
> > the
> > 19302/40s
> It describes how jazz musicians have been harmonizing those songs
> since the 1940s. I don't know of any 1930s popular songwriters who
> wrote those changes.
> II-B7-I is called a "First modality" progression because it moves in fifths > downward. It's the most common progression in popular jazz, even more common > than the blues progression. In fact the standard Jazz blues uses ii-v7-I-v7 > for the last phrase of the blues a lot of the time.
> For a nice trick in dealing with this progression take a stack of 12 (or if > you feel brave, 15) lined notecards and draw a staff on each one, broken up > to 4 bars. Over each one write the chords for a ii-V7-I progression with the > final I chord taking two bars. Then in the measures draw the scale of each > chord, leaving the chord tones empty and filling the other notes in the > scale. (just as a guide)
> > > apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs
> > > from
> > > the
> > > 19302/40s
> > >>>It describes how jazz musicians have been harmonizing those songs
> > >>>since the 1940s. I don't know of any 1930s popular songwriters who
> > >>>wrote those changes.
> > That is an interesting point. The way in which the dominant cadence was
> > set
> > up back in the 1930s was indeed a bit different. I am thinking of tunes of
> > that era such as After You've Gone, Sweet Sue, Ain't Misbehavin', Zing
> > Went
> > the Strings, Three Little Words, etc. Diminished chords and minor 6ths
> > were
> > in style so you didn't get that strong ii-V7 sound as much as what came
> > later. Then again there is Tea For Two to consider. That one has a pretty
> > definitive ii-V7-I thing happening. .....joe
> > --
> > Visit me on the webwww.JoeFinn.net > > Or say hello via Facebook:http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home > >>But IV V I has been used before jazz existed. ii V I is pretty
> >>similar, don't you think, but with a different (stronger) bass
> >>movement.
> Agreed. You will find V I even in the earliest examples. History is full of
> variations on this cadence. ......joe
Right. ii-V-I can be seen as a slightly dressed up V-I. V7-I is
pretty much the foundation of western tonality. Beethoven thought
enough of it to make it practically the last minute of the fifth
symphony.
> > > > apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs
> > > > from
> > > > the
> > > > 19302/40s
> > > >>>It describes how jazz musicians have been harmonizing those songs
> > > >>>since the 1940s. I don't know of any 1930s popular songwriters who
> > > >>>wrote those changes.
> > > That is an interesting point. The way in which the dominant cadence was
> > > set
> > > up back in the 1930s was indeed a bit different. I am thinking of tunes of
> > > that era such as After You've Gone, Sweet Sue, Ain't Misbehavin', Zing
> > > Went
> > > the Strings, Three Little Words, etc. Diminished chords and minor 6ths
> > > were
> > > in style so you didn't get that strong ii-V7 sound as much as what came
> > > later. Then again there is Tea For Two to consider. That one has a pretty
> > > definitive ii-V7-I thing happening. .....joe
> > > --
> > > Visit me on the webwww.JoeFinn.net > > > Or say hello via Facebook:http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home > > >>But IV V I has been used before jazz existed. ii V I is pretty
> > >>similar, don't you think, but with a different (stronger) bass
> > >>movement.
> > Agreed. You will find V I even in the earliest examples. History is full of
> > variations on this cadence. ......joe
> Right. ii-V-I can be seen as a slightly dressed up V-I. V7-I is
> pretty much the foundation of western tonality. Beethoven thought
> enough of it to make it practically the last minute of the fifth
> symphony.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
Was originally IV V I. ii made a more interesting (more as in an
ancillary stance) bass line movement. ii simply replaced IV. So, IV
being needed in those times, it was more than merely "dressing up" the
V. It acted as a 'counter-weight.' Although, ii can be seen as
dressing up the V. Some chords are "all dressed up, yet have no place
to go."
> > > apparently, it describes the chord structure of classic American songs
> > > from
> > > the
> > > 19302/40s
> > >>>It describes how jazz musicians have been harmonizing those songs
> > >>>since the 1940s. I don't know of any 1930s popular songwriters who
> > >>>wrote those changes.
> > That is an interesting point. The way in which the dominant cadence was
> > set
> > up back in the 1930s was indeed a bit different. I am thinking of tunes > > of
> > that era such as After You've Gone, Sweet Sue, Ain't Misbehavin', Zing
> > Went
> > the Strings, Three Little Words, etc. Diminished chords and minor 6ths
> > were
> > in style so you didn't get that strong ii-V7 sound as much as what came
> > later. Then again there is Tea For Two to consider. That one has a > > pretty
> > definitive ii-V7-I thing happening. .....joe
> > --
> > Visit me on the webwww.JoeFinn.net > > Or say hello via Facebook:http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home > >>But IV V I has been used before jazz existed. ii V I is pretty
> >>similar, don't you think, but with a different (stronger) bass
> >>movement.
> Agreed. You will find V I even in the earliest examples. History is full > of
> variations on this cadence. ......joe
> --
> Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net > Or say hello via Facebook:http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home >>>Right. ii-V-I can be seen as a slightly dressed up V-I. V7-I is
>>>pretty much the foundation of western tonality. Beethoven thought
>>>enough of it to make it practically the last minute of the fifth
>>>symphony.
I also think that this is very much I keeping with the natural order of things. Where dividing the octave into x number of intervals is a cultural and at least somewhat arbitrary decision, the overtone series itself gives us a very strong V to I sound since the 5th is the strongest harmonic other than the octave. ....joe
