so which tube amps
Five Sharp
music store and try out some tube models. Which ones should I have a go at
for the classic bop guitar sound a la early Joe Pass or 50s Tal etc.?
#####
sheetsofsound
try a reissue deluxe reverb or a fender hot rod deluxe. That's about
the best you'll find in a music shop. The older amps sound better if
they are properly tuned but they almost never are in music stores in
the USA. Might be different in your neck of the woods. Start with the
tone controls at 12 O'Clock and the reverb at 10 O'Clock and adjust
from there. You'll probably have to turn the bass and treble down a
tad.
Five Sharp
> try a reissue deluxe reverb or a fender hot rod deluxe. That's about
the best you'll find in a music shop. The older amps sound better if
they are properly tuned but they almost never are in music stores in
the USA. Might be different in your neck of the woods. Start with the
tone controls at 12 O'Clock and the reverb at 10 O'Clock and adjust
from there. You'll probably have to turn the bass and treble down a
> tad.
Thanks Jack, I found both models in the inventory of a local store. I take
it these are the ones (?):
http://www.feedback.nl/gitaar-versterkers/fender/hotrod-deluxe
http://www.feedback.nl/gitaar-versterkers/fender/65-deluxe-reverb
There's also one called Hotrod Deville. How is that different?
Regards,
#####
tomsalvojazz
The Hot Rod series has five different amps. The smallest one is the
champ, or something like that. Then, they are as follows:
Blues Junior: 1x12, 15 watts, 2xEL84 poewr tubes, reverb, one channel
with a "fat" switch, about 28 lbs.
Deluxe: 1x12, 40 watts, two channels with a "more Drive" feature on
the drive channel (provides more gain), about 45 lbs
DeVille: comes either as a 2x12 or a 4x10 and has 60 watts.
Otherwise, same features as the Deluxe. About 53 lbs
The Deville is a little smoother sounding in the clean channel because
the output is spread over more speaker space, I think.
If you can find Fender Blues Deluxe or Blues Deville reissues, these
are supposed to have smoother sounding clean channels, and don't have
the "more drive" feature. They are reissues of the original Blues
series before Fender changed them to the Hot Rod series and moved
production to Mexico (although the reissues are made in Mexico).
The Deluxe Reverb Reissue and the Twin Reverb Reissue are also good
choices from Fender and if you can find them, the Peavey Classic 30 is
a great deal.
Bob
I played my ES175 through a 1970's Silverface Fender Twin with very
good results but they really need a small crane to move them!
Something lighter in weight which sounds as good would be nice.
Bob
Marc Why
Jack's second sentence is the tricky part -- you're not going to find
much at the local store (unless you have an amazing guitar store that
carries a great selection of factory and boutique tube amps!).
In some ways, buying a good tube amp is akin to buying a custom
archtop -- you probably can't play one before you buy it! This, of
course, is unfortunate, especially since good amps (and guitars) can
cost a lot of cash, so a leap of faith can be nerve-wracking.
You know this, but there are several great tube amps out there for
jazz, and vary greatly according to price (from $500 to $3000 or
more!), but again, you probably won't find many at the store. FWIW, I
play a Frenzel tube amp and a Jack Anderson tube amp; I love them
both, and they were purchased from recommendations and also thorough
discussions with the builders about their amps and what I was looking
for.
Happy hunting!
Marc
dunlop212
guy makes (expensive) replicas:
http://www.buffaloamps.com/1956GA70CountryWestern.html
http://www.buffaloamps.com/BA70CountryBison.html
I went on a Gibson GA hunt a couple of years ago, and ended up with a
circa 1950 GA-30; great amp!
335
Try a Peavey Delta Blues. It's a tube amp with a 15 inch speaker. It
might not be a "classic jazz" amp but it sounds good and the price is
fair.
rpjazzguitar
for $600 the other day. Picture looked clean and it was advertised as
all original.
That's my favorite amp.
Joe Finn
news:4b3b28ca$0$5851$6d5e...@onsnet.xlned.com...
I played through an old black faced Fender Twin a while back. I think we
tend to forget just how warm and full those things sound; at least I do. The
sound is fat and lush. I like that kind of reverb too. ...joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
gitman
for the type of sound you describe i have not been lucky with modern
production tube amps.
these are IMHO way too bright and the gain structure taylored for
modern sounds. i have
found very good tones in a 60's Ampeg combo, some vintage Gibson amps,
blackface
Fender Pro Reverb and blackface Twin Reverb. these are all hard to
find, expensive and since
they are old they are often not very reliable- i would not take my
chances and gig with one of these.
the Fender Jazz King is a great solid state amp for jazz guitar,
flexible, loud, warm and clean.
and relatively cheap, too. if you are looking for a small amp to use
around the house then
the afore-mentioned Fender Blues Jr.'s might be ok. there is a german
company that makes fine
old-style tube amps which are supposedly very nice for low-volume jazz
guitar sounds :
Tweedsound 15
http://www.twinsound.de/index.php?id=48,0,0,1,0,0&hashID=64cf4cb9e465d7ca28eb9b050e1f38b9
they offer a trial period so the risk is minimal !
rpjazzguitar
Wilkins and Carl Barry taught at my neighborhood music store in
Brooklyn) used the Ampeg Jet. I recall some folklore that it was
better with a JBL speaker. These guys all played Gibson or D'Angelico
(the original) archtops.
At the time I bought my Reverberocket I tried out a Gibson amp at the
original Sam Ash store. I didn't care for it, but, honestly, I don't
know if it sounded bad, or if I was influenced by the fact that all
the good players I knew used Ampegs. As I recall, the Fenders were a
lot more money. But, come to think of it, I did know another teenager
(good player too) who had a gold top Les Paul and a small Fender amp,
probably the Champ.
Anyway, I bought the Reverberocket at Silver and Harlan (anybody
remember that place) on Park Row. It worked perfectly for 30 years or
so and then started having some problems. I'm having it redone now
(caps, three prong plug and whatever). As of the last time it worked,
a few weeks ago, it sounded great and with some of the original
tubes.
Rick
Bg
already get a great sound out of your Tal
Phil
Hmmm. Did these guys really use Fender amps? I had heard that back
in the olden days Ampegs, Gibsons and Standels were the amps of
choice. But then I'm a mere baby in my 40's, so I only know from
second-hand tales. Seriously, I don't think the Fenders get *the*
sound. I had an Ampeg Gemini for awhile that sounded amazing.
drthoma...@gmail.com
>
> Hmmm. Did these guys really use Fender amps? I had heard that back
> in the olden days Ampegs, Gibsons and Standels were the amps of
> choice. But then I'm a mere baby in my 40's, so I only know from
> second-hand tales. Seriously, I don't think the Fenders get *the*
> sound. I had an Ampeg Gemini for awhile that sounded amazing.
I have heard that Van Gelder's house amp was a Fender Twin, and that
Grant Green and Kenny Burrell used it. I don't know how reliable this
information is though.
rpjazzguitar
hearing the name.
Phil
> I was around in the 60's. I can't recall ever seeing a Standel, or
> hearing the name.
I believe Wes used one. May have been solid state, though.
Phil T
> Try a Peavey Delta Blues. It's a tube amp with a 15 inch speaker. It
> might not be a "classic jazz" amp but it sounds good and the price is
> fair.
Robert Conti used one of these for several years. He still may -I don't know
Joey Goldstein
Metheny had one too when he was teaching at Berklee.
I think I may have seen Ed Bickert or Lenny Breau use one on a gig too.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Phil
Yes -- I thought I saw Ed using one in the background of one of those
youtube videos.
pmfan57
I got one after hearing him play through one in a video. Great amp.
Pretty much the same as a Peavey classic but with a 15" speaker. It
gets a great sound with an archtop.
pmfan57
We know that Pass used a Fender rig at least on that TV show on which
he performed The Song is You and that Sonny Rollins blues. And a
Fender guitar for that matter!
The real question was tubes v. transistor. In fact there is no
question that the classic sound was from tube amps, with the exception
of some Wes recordings that may have been with a solid state Standel.
Some tube amps were from Gibson and Ampeg as well, as a previous
poster points out.
I suspect that most studios had a Fender amp as the default amp.
Interestingly, Johnny Smith played straight into the board for many of
his recording sessions.
Another question I have is how people can think those Clarus amps
sound good. They certainly don't get "the sound."
rhanchin
Hey Dick, I play through a Fender Deluxe Reverb Reish, but I made two
important mods. I switched out the speaker for a Weber California --
which added a noticeable amount of headroom. Also I upgraded the
powertubes to warm up the sound a bit. The tubes aren't critical, but
in my opinion some sort of speaker upgrade is, because at only 22
watts, you may have issues with break-up. My rig has no problem with
small groups and get compliments on how nice the amp sounds.
Good luck!
Russ
www.myspace.com/russhanchinjazzgtr
www.russhanchin.com
pmfan57
As to Joe Pass on "For Django," according to John Pisano, (as quoted
by Wolf Marshall), Joe use a small Fender combo amp on that record.
So Fenders definitely can get "the sound," contrary to what another
poster said.
And Pass used an early 60s ES-175D on the session. Here is where I
got the information from:
http://www.wolfmarshall.com/expguitar/JoePass_Lesson.htm
It's a Joe Pass lesson from For Django by Wolf.
pmfan57
As to Grant Green, according to the Gibson website, he is known to
have used "a tweed Fender Twin from the late 1950s, various Ampeg
models, a big Gibson LP-12 from the later ’60s, and occasionally a
Fender Super Reverb or Twin Reverb."
Tim McNamara
"Five Sharp" <hjg.o...@onsbrabantnet.nl> wrote:
> I have holidays so it might be an idea to take my Tal Farlow to a
> local music store and try out some tube models. Which ones should I
> have a go at for the classic bop guitar sound a la early Joe Pass or
> 50s Tal etc.?
Didn't Tal use a Fender Twin? You can get a look at his amp he had at
home in the bio-documentary about him, mainly in the segments with Kenny
Breau.
I suspect those guys did not obsess about amps like we do.
drthoma...@gmail.com
>
> I suspect those guys did not obsess about amps like we do.
The Other Tim once told a story about Kenny Poole using two piece of
crap SS Peaveys. Kenny did play a boutique archtop though.
Tim McNamara
<66665479-af8c-4a43...@r12g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
pmfan57 <jwra...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Dec 30, 8:28�am, sheetsofsound <jackzuc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 30, 5:17�am, "Five Sharp" <hjg.onst...@onsbrabantnet.nl>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I have holidays so it might be an idea to take my Tal Farlow to a
> > > local music store and try out some tube models. Which ones should
> > > I have a go at for the classic bop guitar sound a la early Joe
> > > Pass or 50s Tal etc.?
> >
> > > #####
> >
> > try a reissue deluxe reverb or a fender hot rod deluxe. That's
> > about the best you'll find in a music shop. The older amps sound
> > better if they are properly tuned but they almost never are in
> > music stores in the USA. Might be different in your neck of the
> > woods. Start with the tone controls at 12 O'Clock and the reverb at
> > 10 O'Clock and adjust from there. You'll probably have to turn the
> > bass and treble down a tad.
>
> As to Joe Pass on "For Django," according to John Pisano, (as quoted
> by Wolf Marshall), Joe use a small Fender combo amp on that record.
> So Fenders definitely can get "the sound," contrary to what another
> poster said.
Well, can get "the sound" with the combination of a guitar and a
musician. I suspect we are far pickier and obsessive about the tone and
such than the players we emulate could afford to be. Tose jazz guitar
heroes in the 50s and early 60s were working musicians with fewer
options as to available equipment.
> And Pass used an early 60s ES-175D on the session.
Which was a gift from a jazz fan and amateur guitarist, IIRC while Joe
was still at Synanon, who saw Joe playing the (in)famous solid body
Fender and thought a proper jazz guitar was necessary. Joe used that
guitar more or less exclusively for many years.
> Here is where I got the information from:
>
> http://www.wolfmarshall.com/expguitar/JoePass_Lesson.htm
>
> It's a Joe Pass lesson from For Django by Wolf.
There are also video and print interviews in which Joe talks about
getting the guitar and names the donor (Mike something, IIRC).
Bg
> I was around in the 60's. I can't recall ever seeing a Standel, or
> hearing the name.
Wes uses one in those European Vids floating around, Legends of Jazz
etc.
Bg
335
.
>
> Another question I have is how people can think those Clarus amps
> sound good. They certainly don't get "the sound."
The clarus can be cold sounding, but there's a bunch of factors
involved not least of which is the player. I've heard quite a few guys
sound good with the clarus and I've heard others sound lifeless
through a Polytone. Anyway, there's more than one sound for classic
jazz guitar, Grant, Wes, Lenny and Pat Martino all have their own
sound.
pmfan57
> In article <4b3b28ca$0$5851$6d5ee...@onsnet.xlned.com>,
> "Five Sharp" <hjg.onst...@onsbrabantnet.nl> wrote:
>
> > I have holidays so it might be an idea to take my Tal Farlow to a
> > local music store and try out some tube models. Which ones should I
> > have a go at for the classic bop guitar sound a la early Joe Pass or
> > 50s Tal etc.?
>
> Didn't Tal use a Fender Twin? You can get a look at his amp he had at
> home in the bio-documentary about him, mainly in the segments with Kenny
> Breau.
>
> I suspect those guys did not obsess about amps like we do.
Right. They would just tweak the freakin knobs to get the sound they
wanted, in addition to their guitar settings.
rpjazzguitar
get a sound I like from that amp. I have to turn the bass way down to
keep the bottom strings from booming. Then, the amp has that
characteristic Fender twang. If I roll off the treble, it sounds
lifeless.
Bg
> > I was around in the 60's. I can't recall ever seeing a Standel, or
> > hearing the name.
>
> . Chet Atkins also preferred one.
> Bg
rpjazzguitar
>
> - Show quoted text -
I just read their history. Apparently, the early Standels were very
expensive and marketed mainly to pro players. Some of their amps had
tubes according to Wikipedia. Later amps were solid state. Other
sources suggest all were solid state.
Paul C
> I have holidays so it might be an idea to take my Tal Farlow to a local
> music store and try out some tube models. Which ones should I have a go at
> for the classic bop guitar sound a la early Joe Pass or 50s Tal etc.?
>
As you are in the Netherlands, you should be able to find Koch amps
fairly easily --- try the clean channel on a Studiotone.
pc
guitarannie
In 1971 I was playing a gig at "The Swing" an infamous club in the San
Fernando Valley. I had a 1966 Fender Super Reverb. The rectifier
melted and the stench and fumes emptied the club for the rest of the
night. No swinging for that crowd.
My dad got a good jazz tone out of the Super But I just played
everything at 10 and tried to make it screech (it did) since we were
doing the top 40 of the day.
(I still miss my Wah Wah pedal)
BTW, "Swinging" In 1971 meant wife swapping.
SAS
Phil T
ALL of their amps had tubes, from the time they started production in
the early 50's, until solid state became viable sometime in the early to
mid 60's. The early amps were "professional grade", built to order and
generally only ended up in the hands of professional players. Considered
expensive at the time.
Chet Atkins apparently used his on every track he cut, but he didn't
travel with it.
Gregg L
"guitarannie" <guita...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ed4718d8-76b4-4b54...@a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> Slightly off topic but...
> In 1971 I was playing a gig at "The Swing" an infamous club in the San
> Fernando Valley.
Wow, deja vu!
We were there one night to hear the Don Ellis Orchestra.
Gregg
Carl
> I was around in the 60's. I can't recall ever seeing a Standel, or
> hearing the name.
>
>
me! Check this out...
http://cgi.ebay.com/1967-THE-LOVIN-SPOONFUL-for-Standel-Amps-Print-Ad_W0QQitemZ380147984919QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item588295ea17
Actually, I never heard of them either, but I was not an electric guitar
player in the '60's.
Bill C
not a tube amp but I believe these guys have Evans in the Netherlands
- very nice amps, traditional build quality with excellent tone
shaping possibilities imo ...
http://www.promotamusic.com/folderIndex/folderHTML/versterkers.html
Chickenhead
DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT USING THE HIDEOUS DISTORTION CHANNEL; 2) don't have
to play loud (because it sounds like Bush when it hits the headroom wall);
3) have the knees and back of a young man.
But for the price, it ain't bad at all. It's available everywhere and very
easy to find used at a decent price. If nothing else, it's worth a try just
to have a baseline amp for comparison purposes.
"Five Sharp" <hjg.o...@onsbrabantnet.nl> wrote in message
news:4b3b28ca$0$5851$6d5e...@onsnet.xlned.com...
pmfan57
I guess you could have had one of those padded Kustom amps back then
if you didn't want tubes. Actually those amps didn't sound that bad,
as I recall.
rpjazzguitar
having a long and low cabinet - two speakers, I think. Anyway, it
sounded great. I mean great! I never had it very loud though.
tom walls
> rpjazzguitar wrote:
> > I was around in the 60's. I can't recall ever seeing a Standel, or
> > hearing the name.
>
> Hey, if the Lovin' Spoonful used and promoted them, that's good enough for
> Actually, I never heard of them either, but I was not an electric guitar
> player in the '60's.
I remember seeing ads for them in Downbeat, back in the day.
Tim McNamara
<ebff6a0d-547d-4c43...@u20g2000vbq.googlegroups.com>,
pmfan57 <jwra...@aol.com> wrote:
And probably just got close enough and focused on playing.
pmfan57
Close enough to get the classic jazz tones everyone's been admiring
for all these years.
Tim McNamara
<00b26d16-1517-4565...@d7g2000vbs.googlegroups.com>,
pmfan57 <jwra...@aol.com> wrote:
It's just a matter of precedence. Had the first amps for electric
guitars been SS amps that sounded like Polytones and tube amps had come
along later, we'd be trying to get tube amps to sound like those old SS
amps.
sheetsofsound
> It's just a matter of precedence. Had the first amps for electric
> guitars been SS amps that sounded like Polytones and tube amps had come
> along later, we'd be trying to get tube amps to sound like those old SS
> amps.
The same argument could be made of archtops vs solid bodies.
Tim McNamara
<0e80125e-2334-487c...@m3g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
sheetsofsound <jackz...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, I think it's probably true there too. Had solid bodies come along
first (e.g., had Charlie Christian played one) they'd be the reference
standard and there would probably be few archtop electric guitars in
jazz. We'd maybe all just play solid bodies free of unmusical feedback,
wolf tones, and the various other pecadillos and problems posed by
amplifying a resonant stringed instrument.
And, of course, we'd have missed out on generations of beautiful, artful
instruments made by artisans like D'Angelico and D'Aquisto...
TFPainter
We like Bach on a modern piano don't we? The harpsichord is nice for a
novelty, but (for me!)
I'd rather hear it on a modern piano. If it SOUNDS better, it is
better.
Tom
pmfan57
No because tube amps sound better. Although the added weight might
convince people not to switch to the better sound. Compare Joe Pass'
sound on For Django, Simplicity and The Stones Jazz to most of his
recordings for Pablo. The latter didn't sound bad (except when it's
clear he's playing the Ibanez); but the former sounded sublime.
I wonder what amp they let him use when he recorded Intercontinental.
Because he got an excellent sound on that album as well.
People would have noticed the improved sound. Are you saying that had
his bright thin sound on the Ibanez been the one we heard first, we
would not have thought a switch to the ES 175 was an improvement? Do
people always think the first thing they hear is better?
It may be partly Joe not caring much about his sound, because others
have achieved a better sound out of a Polytone amp. One contributes
to this group. (And it's also possible to get a great warm sound out
of the JP Ibanez model).
sheetsofsound
My ex-mother-in-law was the head of the piano department at the
university of maryland for many years. She often performed on a
fortepiano (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/
FortepianoByMcNultyAfterWalter1805.jpg). Does it sound as full and
rich as a steinway grand piano? Probably not but it was period
correct. Think it's hard to lug a tube amp to a gig? Try lugging a
fortepiano!
tom walls
> In article
>
> > The same argument could be made of archtops vs solid bodies.
>
> Yeah, I think it's probably true there too. Had solid bodies come along
> first (e.g., had Charlie Christian played one) they'd be the reference
> standard and there would probably be few archtop electric guitars in
> jazz. We'd maybe all just play solid bodies free of unmusical feedback,
> wolf tones, and the various other pecadillos and problems posed by
> amplifying a resonant stringed instrument.
>
> And, of course, we'd have missed out on generations of beautiful, artful
> instruments made by artisans like D'Angelico and D'Aquisto...
Bah! If I extended your premise we'd all be playing banjo.
pmfan57
That analogy only works if the underlying facts are in similar
relationship to one another. Even assuming, arguendo, that piano
somehow sounds "better" for Bach (which is arguable), that has no
bearing at all as to whether tube amps or solid state sound better.
Sounds like you were trying to imply that all newer things sound
better than all older things, or the fact that thing A sounds better
than thing B somehows aids in the argument that thing C sounds better
than thing D.
Tube amps are one of those older things that happen to sound better
than it's newer replacement. But they're too heavy so it's
understandable why people will try to find a good replacement. Which
is why solid state hi fi equipment has "soft clipping" circuitry and
the like to emulate the sound of tube amps, without having to deal
with the inconvenience and vast expense (in HIFI equipment) of tube
units.
TFPainter
I wasn't really talking about tubes vs SS.....:-)
Tim had stated that if CC had played a solid body perhaps we'd all be
playing solid bodies. Sure tradition plays a part in we jazzers still
using archtops, but I'd argue the TONE is the overriding
consideration. It was CC's fantastic playing and TONE that gives us
goosebumps (or me anyway!). I don't think newer is necessarily
better...such things should be judged on their function, not
chronology.
drthoma...@gmail.com
>
> We like Bach on a modern piano don't we? The harpsichord is nice for a
> novelty, but (for me!)
> I'd rather hear it on a modern piano. If it SOUNDS better, it is
> better.
I think Bach sounds best on a clavichord. I also prefer Bach's tuning
to modern tunings.
tom walls
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> It seems to boil down to which guitar is paired with which amp.
> My Borys B120 sounds like shit thru my PV Transtube EFX 112 and great
> thru my 1970 SF Twin and orange Cube 60 for jazz.
> But my Parker P-44 sounds great thru my Twin, less great thru the cube
> and like shit thru the PV (but is sounds great for rock thru the PV).
> The SS cube gets a Kenny Burrell sound with the Borys, while the Twin
> can get a more natural, woody sound played quietly, but a heavy,
> almost ponderous sound played live with a drummer and horns.
> The two suggestions I've had with tubes are the Carr Rambler and the
> Fender Vibrolux, which are both a lot lighter than my Twin.
The Vibrolux is a nice amp, but will break up if you play REAL loud.
nqbqbep
wrote:
> I have holidays so it might be an idea to take my Tal Farlow to a local
> music store and try out some tube models. Which ones should I have a go at
> for the classic bop guitar sound a la early Joe Pass or 50s Tal etc.?
>
http://www.jhalemusic.com/pages/kendrick.html
And it's only $3,295.00.
Paul Mitchell Brown
How about a '63 RI Fender Vibroverb? Great, warm sounding amp with a
beautiful reverb. I bought one about 15 years ago and the only mod I
carried out was to swap the original speakers (muddy sounding Fender
Oxford Blues from memory). There's one on eBay at the moment - only
ships to the US unfortunately - for a very reasonable price:
Tim McNamara
<d256e23a-130a-4f47...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
pmfan57 <jwra...@aol.com> wrote:
My point was that "tube amps sound better" because they came first and
set the standard for "good sound."
--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."
Tom Jaffe
sound better because they are richer sounding and less compressed sounding.
They are touch sensitive and add a preferred color to the guitar's tone. I
believe the tube amps superior tone is objective and not based on time
frame. There are plenty of older sounding instruments and equipment that
most people shun nowadays. Why don't we prefer to produce mono recordings on
scratchy vinyl? Why do we tend to prefer later model powerful tube amps with
reverb over the early low wattage ones with no reverb? Why don't we play
Selmer guitars like Django? Some things sound better due to innovation, and
some sound worse. I believe that emulating our heroes' tones is a factor in
the gear we choose, but the tones that impressed us were probably recorded
with superior sounding gear. I heard Joe Pass first on recordings with a
Polytone, and never liked his tone. It is the tube amp recordings that I
listened to afterwards that I liked the best. I also prefer Wes' tone on the
later recordings to that of some of the earlier Riverside recordings.
"Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
news:timmcn-A988E7....@news-2.mpls.iphouse.net...
Tim McNamara
"Tom Jaffe" <tja...@eesjobs.com> wrote:
> I think we get your point, but some us disagree with your premise. Tube amps
> sound better because they are richer sounding and less compressed sounding.
Not universally true by any means. Some SS amps sound richer and less
compressed than some tube amps and vice versa.
> They are touch sensitive and add a preferred color to the guitar's tone.
Preferred by some, not by others. This is a matter of taste.
> I believe the tube amps superior tone is objective and not based on
> time frame.
How does one objectively measure a "superior" tone? This is not unlike
trying to state that Picasso is objectively superior to Cezanne or that
Rogers & Hart are objectively superior to the Gershwins.
> There are plenty of older sounding instruments and equipment that
> most people shun nowadays. Why don't we prefer to produce mono
> recordings on scratchy vinyl?
I know someone who prefers wax cylinder recordings played on old
Edison-style players. But he's not one of your run-of-the-mill folks.
> Why do we tend to prefer later model powerful tube amps with
> reverb over the early low wattage ones with no reverb?
And yet we pay far more for those vintage amps and tend to denigrate
modern stuff in other discussions. Been many discussions about this.
As one example, Jim Hall's most revered tone, for most fans, is his
older tone with his Gibson (IIRC) GA-50.
As I've mentioned earlier, I have a 1974 Pro Reverb that is superb with
certain of my guitars and ill-suited to others (to my ears; you might
feel differently). The tone controls provide inadequate cut and boost
and the voicing of the amp is just not compatible with some of my
instruments. My Polytone sound better with some of my guitars than the
Fender and worse with some of the others. My Cube 60 seems to split the
difference and sounds good with everything but great with few.
The exception is my two guitars with under-saddle piezo pickups. They
sound crappy with everything to my ears. I've never heard an
under-saddle piezo system I thought sounded good through any of my amps.
They all have a sort of Jew's harp quality to them. Yuck. Pisses me
off, too, because I'd rather play nylon string for most jazz than steel
string.
> Why don't we play Selmer guitars like Django?
Given the continuing high popularity of that style of guitars, that's an
odd question.
> Some things sound better due to innovation, and some sound worse.
No argument there, of course. But again, this is mostly- possibly
completely- a matter of taste and not of objective fact. The objective
fact is not that "A sounds better than B" but instead is a subjective
statement that "I prefer the sound of A to the sound of B."
> I believe that emulating our heroes' tones is a factor in
> the gear we choose, but the tones that impressed us were probably recorded
> with superior sounding gear. I heard Joe Pass first on recordings with a
> Polytone, and never liked his tone. It is the tube amp recordings that I
> listened to afterwards that I liked the best. I also prefer Wes' tone on the
> later recordings to that of some of the earlier Riverside recordings.
That you liked the sound of certain recordings better than others is a
subjective preference, not objective evidence that one sound is actually
superior to another.
nqbqbep
> I think we get your point, but some us disagree with your premise. Tube amps
> sound better because they are richer sounding and less compressed sounding.
> They are touch sensitive and add a preferred color to the guitar's tone. I
> believe the tube amps superior tone is objective and not based on time
> frame.
Check out Ron Eschete getting a gorgeous acoustic archtop tone out of
an Evans AH200 and a pair of Raezer’s Edge cabinets:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBlnzSI6PrM
Sure, that's not the "classic" Farlow/Pass tone but there's more than
one great type of tone for jazz guitar.
> There are plenty of older sounding instruments and equipment that
> most people shun nowadays. Why don't we prefer to produce mono recordings on
> scratchy vinyl?
Some mono recordings from the 50's (e.g. Frank Sinatra's albums) sound
way better than most albums produced today. There are people today who
pay as much money to get a good turntable as some of us pay for a good
handmade archtop (or even more).
http://www.phonophono.de/Yturntables.php3
http://www.phonophono.de/Ytransrotor_quintessence.php3?Kennung=
> Why do we tend to prefer later model powerful tube amps with
> reverb over the early low wattage ones with no reverb? Why don't we play
> Selmer guitars like Django?
Don't we?
pmfan57
> On Jan 2, 8:24 am, "Tom Jaffe" <tja...@eesjobs.com> wrote:
>
> > I think we get your point, but some us disagree with your premise. Tube amps
> > sound better because they are richer sounding and less compressed sounding.
> > They are touch sensitive and add a preferred color to the guitar's tone. I
> > believe the tube amps superior tone is objective and not based on time
> > frame.
>
> Check out Ron Eschete getting a gorgeous acoustic archtop tone out of
> an Evans AH200 and a pair of Raezer’s Edge cabinets:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBlnzSI6PrM
>
> Sure, that's not the "classic" Farlow/Pass tone but there's more than
> one great type of tone for jazz guitar.
>
> > There are plenty of older sounding instruments and equipment that
> > most people shun nowadays. Why don't we prefer to produce mono recordings on
> > scratchy vinyl?
>
> Some mono recordings from the 50's (e.g. Frank Sinatra's albums) sound
> way better than most albums produced today. There are people today who
> pay as much money to get a good turntable as some of us pay for a good
> handmade archtop (or even more).
>
>
> > Why do we tend to prefer later model powerful tube amps with
> > reverb over the early low wattage ones with no reverb? Why don't we play
> > Selmer guitars like Django?
>
> Don't we?
>
Tube amp designers in hifi certainly have not been trying to copy the
sound of solid state amps. To the contrary, solid state amp designers
consciously and admittedly ARE trying to copy the gold standard: the
sound of a tube amplifier. This is not really disputed in hifi, and
never has been. A solid state hifi amp is really good if it approaches
the sound of a tube amp.
I don't think it's been disputed in guitar amplification either until
a recent trend of archtop players somehow thinking the Clarus sounds
"good".
pmfan57
>
> > I think we get your point, but some us disagree with your premise. Tube amps
> > sound better because they are richer sounding and less compressed sounding.
> > They are touch sensitive and add a preferred color to the guitar's tone. I
> > believe the tube amps superior tone is objective and not based on time
> > frame.
>
> Check out Ron Eschete getting a gorgeous acoustic archtop tone out of
> an Evans AH200 and a pair of Raezer’s Edge cabinets:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBlnzSI6PrM
>
> Sure, that's not the "classic" Farlow/Pass tone but there's more than
> one great type of tone for jazz guitar.
>
> > There are plenty of older sounding instruments and equipment that
> > most people shun nowadays. Why don't we prefer to produce mono recordings on
> > scratchy vinyl?
>
> Some mono recordings from the 50's (e.g. Frank Sinatra's albums) sound
> way better than most albums produced today. There are people today who
> pay as much money to get a good turntable as some of us pay for a good
> handmade archtop (or even more).
>
>
> > Why do we tend to prefer later model powerful tube amps with
> > reverb over the early low wattage ones with no reverb? Why don't we play
> > Selmer guitars like Django?
>
> Don't we?
>
"Scratchy" vinyl doesn't sound good. But an LP in good condition
sounds great. Just as good or better than a CD through a good
turntable and system.
Tom Jaffe
old sounds simply because we heard those sounds first. We prefer certain old
sounds because they objectively sound better to us. You seem to prefer LPs
in some cases, which many people do because they may sound warmer. But you
do not like scratchy sounds, even though you probably heard that sound a
long time ago. And some people prefer old mono recordings because they feel
they sound superior to modern recordings, not because they heard them before
stereo recordings. Maybe they don't like the sound of the instruments being
seperated in the two channels. I prefer the sound of plate reverb used in
the old recordings over modern digital reverb which seems cold and
artificial to my ear. But I prefer to listen to modern recordings over old
Charley Patton blues recordings because of the low fidelity of those old
records. Again, people do not prefer old gear simply because they heard it
first. Some of the old stuff simply sounds better to us, while other old
stuff does not.
"pmfan57" <jwra...@aol.com> wrote in message
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