Bridge always coming off my Seagull cedar

[garybeck]

I've had a Seagull with cedar top for over 10 years now. I like the guitar but I've had a constant problem of the bridge coming off. Part of the problem (I think) is I like to use medium gauge strings (13s) which have higher tension.

I've had the guitar in and the bridge fixed many times. One time a guy put a "Bridge Doctor" on there and it seemed to hold longer. But it was removed by the next repair guy, in an attempt to stop a rattling sound that was actually caused by a loose nut that holds the neck to the body. by the time he figured out it was the nut (and not the Bridge Doctor), the Bridge Doctor was already removed and he wasn't going to put it back on.... He tightened the nut to get rid of the rattling sound and re-attached bridge and it held for about a year.

Now the bridge is coming off again. I called the repair guy back (the one who removed the bridge doctor) and he said it would be useless to put a bridge doctor back on, and the reason this keeps happening is simply because the top of the guitar is made of cedar which is a softer wood.

he said I should basically give up on this guitar, especially if I want to keep using 13s. He said I've had it a long time and the top just isn't strong enough. He said he would put the bridge on one more time for no charge (since it only held for one year) but it probably won't last long before it comes off again.

your thoughts? are medium gauge strings really that bad on all cedar top guitars? should I give up on this guitar? take it to a different repair guy? get a bridge doctor put on again?

any thoughts are appreciated.

[Steve Hawkins]

garybeck <garybe...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:55dde9af-d9d9-48bc...@googlegroups.com:

I own two guitars with cedar tops, two with redwood tops, no problems.
Take it to a Luthier, not a repair guy. Where are you located?

Steve Hawkins

[Tony Done]

>
> any thoughts are appreciated.
>

I don't think it is the cedar or the string gauge. I would try to find
someone with a good reputation for repair work, but I don't think that
this necessarily means a luthier.

If you really like it, and if it a case of fix it or chuck it I would
use epoxy, or put bolts in the bridge as many cheapos had in the past.


--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456
http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[Al Evans]

In article <juo3i5$oef$2...@speranza.aioe.org>,
Tony Done <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote:

...put bolts in the bridge as many cheapos had in the past.

It sounds like you've been making this Seagull earn its keep!

I think I agree with Tony, though I'm insulted by the implication that
my Gallaghers are "cheapos" :-)

As I recall, cedar is inherently more difficult to glue things to than
spruce. And using medium strings results in a notably higher tension. So
it may be that the particular top you have won't hold glue well enough
for the higher-tension strings.

It does seem as though the Bridge Doctor would be superfluous, unless
the higher tension was actually pulling the top out of shape.

The best thing would be to find a "real luthier", as Steve has
suggested. But failing that, it's hard to see how bolting the bridge to
the bridge plate could hurt much.

--Al Evans--

[Mark Bluemel]

There are a number of luthiers who post to the group (Dave Hajicek
and Kevin Hall spring immediately to mind). I'd wait till you hear
from a couple of them before doing anything more to the guitar...

[Dave M.]

Gary,

If I follow you, you have a guitar in which the bridge fails to adhere
well to the top. It's out of warranty. This problem was corrected by using a
JLD bridge doctor. I presume you were happy with the results. The bridge was
"bolted" to the top by this system.
Some time later the bridge doctor was removed while trouble shooting a
rattle. The luthier (?) who did this did not re-install it. Why? Do you have
the bridge doctor? Get it re-installed. This could be a DIY project. I'm
troubled by the luthier telling you that the bridge doctor will not fix this
problem, since it will. I'd not trust this guy's repairs or his opinions.

Dave M.

[hank alrich]

The Bridge Doctor is less about securing bridges and more about
counteracting the effect of torque at the bridge's location in order to
restrain deformation of the top.

I second those who ask where he lives so we can direct him to a luthier
we trust.

--
shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/
http://www.youtube.com/walkinaymusic
http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShaidri

[Ed Edelenbos iPad]

I'd find another repair tech, one who knew what he was doing. Very often,
luthiers who are excellent at building are not good at repairs...
different skill set.

Ed

--
This is posted from my iPad

[Steve Hawkins]

Ed Edelenbos iPad <ed...@huh.wha> wrote in
news:2006370470364922105...@news.individual.net:

huh????? I know several who also do repairs and every Luthier takes care
of the instruments they build.

Steve Hawkins

[hank alrich]

But there are many who'd rather refer the owner to a luthier who
specializes in repairs. While Lance did repair his own instruments for
_some_ owners, several times I was at Luke's shop when a McCollum came
in the door, referred there by Lance himself. So no, not every lutheir
takes care of the instruments they built.

[Steve Hawkins]

walk...@nv.net (hank alrich) wrote in
news:1kns6xm.1wmgoj1k1ivcwN%walk...@nv.net:

That doesn't mean they don't know how. Lance always had 5 to 10 new
instruments in process, so he gave some customers the option of using
someone he recommends rather than waiting for him to get to it.

Steve Hawkins

[garybeck]

Hello everyone, I REALLY appreciate all the replies. To clarify a few things... my "repair guy" is a Luthier. He has a pretty good reputation in my town (Burlington VT). He builds guitars and he's also a certified warranty repair guy for Martin, Taylor, Fender.... He removed the Bridge Doctor when he was troubleshooting a rattling noise in the guitar. He said at the time he was doing me a favor because it is useless and it dampens the sound of the guitar.

I take it from the responses that there's a difference between the bridge coming off and the top bowing out; that these are related but separate issues. I looked at my guitar closely and the bridge is definitely coming off and the top is a bit bowed as well. It has a slight bow to it but not huge. Here are a few pictures to illustrate:

http://solarbus.org/temp/guitar.jpg
http://solarbus.org/temp/guitar2.jpg
http://solarbus.org/temp/guitar3.jpg
http://solarbus.org/temp/guitar4.jpg

I think you can see there's a slight bow in the top but not huge. Also there is more of a gap under the bridge by the edges, than in the middle, indicating that the top is bowed somewhat. If I run my hand over the top i can feel it is bowed but with the eye it looks fairly flat.

When the guy took the Bridge Doctor off and told me it was useless, I believed him and I threw the hardware in the garbage. So I guess I can't ask him to reinstall it at this point.

From your responses I understand that:

1) the Bridge Doctor is not a useless piece of junk as my repair guy thinks.
2) my cedar top should be able to handle the higher tension of the 13s, especially if there is a Bridge Doctor on there.
3) Since this guitar is fine otherwise and I like it, I should not be needing to replace it at this point. Some kind of fix should be possible, if the only problem is this bridge/top issue.

I'm tempted to just forget this guy and look for a different repair person. But I don't want to start over again, and he's offering to re-affix the bridge for free. The guitar only cost me $350 when I bought it and I'm sure I've put more than that into it already with the several times I have had the bridge fixed. If I start over with another guy (maybe one who will put on a new bridge doctor?) it's going to be more bucks invested in the guitar with somewhat uncertain results.

hhhmmmmmmmmmmmm...... any thoughts at this point are appreciated.

gary

[garybeck]

Oh yeah one other thing, he said he thinks my top is "just worn at strectched" at this point, and there's not much I can do, but use low tension strings and hope for the best.

[Alan Carruth]

I've built a lot of guitars with cedar tops over the years, and have not had any more trouble with them than spruce tops. You just have to design for the wood, which Seagull may not have done.

Cedar is softer than spruce, but, more to the point, it's not as tough. It has more of a tendency to peel than spruce does, so it's really important to keep the stress at the back edge of the bridge low. If you're unwilling to go to lighter strings (which might not help much anyway), and can't lower the saddle height (which might also not do as much good as you'd hope), the only real solution is to put on a bigger bridge. This reduces the stress at the back edge in a number of ways. Without going into it too much, it's more useful to make the bridge wider (from front to back) than it is to make it longer from end to end.

If you make a larger bridge of the same material it will tend to be heavier, of course. That tends to cut down on the sound output, and particularly in the treble. I often use walnut for bridges on cedar topped guitars, which allows me to make them bigger without adding much, if any, weight.

PLEASE do not use epoxy, or bolts. Epoxy is hard to remove without damaging the top: using it basically is a last resort, since there won't be much left to fix the next time the bridge comes off. Bolts only concentrate the stress at a small point, and lead to more distortion and trouble.

[Alan Carruth]

Cedar is softer then spruce, and, more to the point, not as tough. It lacks peel resistance, so the bridge starts peeling up quicker, and once it starts you can't stop it. Multiple repairs probably have not helped at all.

I've built a lot of guitars with cedar tops, both steel and nylon string, without any more trouble than with spruce. The thing is that you have to take the properties of the wood into account, and design for it. The fix centers around making certain that the stress at the back edge of the bridge does not exceed what the wood can take. There are three ways to do this:
1) reduce the string tension,
2) lower the saddle height, and
3) use a larger bridge.

You can easily do the first, but it may not help: the difference in tension between lights and mediums is not all that great, and, as I said, I suspect the glue surface on the top is not as good as it should be, due to the multiple repairs.

To really lower the saddle height you'd have to reset the neck, most likely. Again, this might not help all that much: the stress at the back edge is a combination of shear, from the string tension, and torque, from the fact that the tension acts above the plane of the top. The only way to lower the shear stress is to reduce the string tension, and lowering the saddle height only decreases the 'lift' on the back edge.

Using a larger bridge (which probably should have been done at the factory) reduces the stress at the back edge more than you might think. Not only do you have more leverage, and more area to spread the stress around, but there's also a benefit from increasing the distance from the front of the bridge to the back.

Obviously, putting on a new bridge will void the warranty. I think that's gone anyway. If you use the same material for the new bridge as the old one, it will end up heavier. That will tend to reduce the volume overall, and more in the treble than the bass. I often use walnut for bridges on cedar tops, instead of a rosewood, so that I can make them larger but not heavier.

[Tony Done]

On 25/07/2012 9:21 PM, Al Evans wrote:
> In article <juo3i5$oef$2...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> Tony Done <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> ...put bolts in the bridge as many cheapos had in the past.
>
> It sounds like you've been making this Seagull earn its keep!
>
> I think I agree with Tony, though I'm insulted by the implication that
> my Gallaghers are "cheapos" :-)
>

> --Al Evans--
>
Oops, I will go and wash my mouth with soap and water.

[Tony Done]

On 26/07/2012 4:14 AM, Alan Carruth wrote:

I'm not arguing with you about that, and I certainly wouldn't suggest it
on a more expensive instrument, but I would just like to explain my
logic. How much would a "good" repair cost in relation to the value of
the instrument? I envisaged with epoxy that if it ever needed another
repair, the bridge would be destroyed in the process. I guess that would
add extra to the cost of the kind of pro repair you are suggesting,
which would be OK if the guitar was worth that much to the owner, but it
might never need it. <g> Call it a combination of cost effectiveness and
risk management.

[Ed Edelenbos iPad]

It's kind of tough to tell the amount of bellying of the top in those pics.
It sure looks like there isn't much saddle left which leads me to think
there is either a lot of belly or need for a neck reset. Since the neck is
bolt on, a reset is not the job it could be if it was a glued joint.

My opinions...

1) the bridge doctor is not by default a bad thing. Some guitars do fine
with them, some don't. They need to be properly set up in order to
function at their best.

2) given the number of Seagull guitars alone (not to mention other makers)
with cedar tops that are doing fine, I think a blanket statement of how
cedar tops can't work are inaccurate. I didn't look up to see what Seagull
recommends but I'd think it should be ok with mediums.

3) some sort of fix should be possible, but a proper diagnosis of just what
is failing, and why and how it is failing is necessary. As it has had to
be repaired several times, it seems to me that hasn't happened yet.

Based on number 3 and that low saddle, I'd think just regluing the bridge
is not enough.

[Dave M.]

Gary,

You had and used the bridge doctor on this guitar. Did you like the
sound? The BD can certainly affect the top's ability to vibrate. This is a
bad thing if you don't like the sound and a good thing if you like it. We
don't know what you like.
The BD will bolt down the bridge and help to counteract the top bowing.
Putting a BD back on is not an uncertain thing, since you already know what
it sounds like.

Dave M.

[jgoska]

On Jul 25, 12:47 am, garybeck <garybeckwi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've had a Seagull with cedar top for over 10 years now.  I like the guitar but I've had a constant problem of the bridge coming off.

> any thoughts are appreciated.

Thoughts:

I've had a cedar topped Lowden for 20 years now and although I
have heard that gluing bridges to cedar can be a problem the bridge
has stayed in place. For strings I favor 12s rather than 13s, which
could be a contributing factor, but it seems George Lowden knows how
to glue a bridge to a cedar top. If I had your problem I would email
George and ask for his advice regarding appropriate adhesives.

I would email Seagull too, and maybe Taylor, etc. They must deal
with these things on a daily basis.

I agree with your repair guy that the bridge doctor is a sound-
killing piece of junk that contributed zero to keeping your bridge in
place. Give no further thought to bridge doctors.

I would not give up on a favored guitar simply because the bridge
came off. Stewart MacDonald or the 3M corporation probably have
something that will do the trick.

[Alan Carruth]

jgoska wrote:
"... it seems George Lowden knows how

to glue a bridge to a cedar top. "

We had a Lowden in the shop, about 15 years ago, that lost it's bridge. It was a new guitar, hanging on the wall. One day we heard a noise in the front room, and when we checked it, the bridge was hanging by the strings.

What as interesting was that the glue line had not failed: there was cedar covering the entire bottom of the bridge. However, there was also no chippping at all into the area of the top beyond the bridge: the break was literally a clean cut all the way around.

We figured that perhaps the person on the line who's job it was to scribe around the bridge and remove the top finish had just put a knew blade into his X-Acto knife. Not accustomed to having a sharp one, he/she put too much pressure on and cut into the wood all around the bridge. This left a stress riser, and it was only a matter of time after that.

So:
1)everybody makes mistakes,
2) with care and good design there's no reason you can't use cedar on any guitar.

[Larry Pattis]

Steve Hawkins <stephen....@frontier.comREMOVETHIS> wrote:

> That doesn't mean they don't know how. Lance always had 5 to 10 new
> instruments in process, so he gave some customers the option of using
> someone he recommends rather than waiting for him to get to it.
>
> Steve Hawkins

Some do, and some don't.

Back when I owned my guitar-shop I once had a "luthier" approach me
with a few guitars he wanted to consign with me, or for me to buy
outright for resale.

I asked about his warranty policy. I asked whether he would cover
neck-resets.

He said he wasn't sure if he could get the neck joint apart to do a
reset.

Anyone can call themself a luthier or a guitar-tech.

The OP needs to find a human-being that is capable of a good and proper
bridge re-glue.

Period.

--
LP
http://www.LarryPattis.com
American Guitar Masters
http://www.AmericanGuitarMasters.com

[David Hajicek]

"Alan Carruth" <alanc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:61755aa5-2d47-47de...@googlegroups.com...

__________________

As I understand it, this is not that uncommon a mistake.

A friend of mine masks the area of the bridge before finishing, so there is
no cutting of the top.

Dave H

[Tony Done]

> I agree with your repair guy that the bridge doctor is a sound-
> killing piece of junk that contributed zero to keeping your bridge in
> place. Give no further thought to bridge doctors.
>

A few years back I was experimenting with flying braces of the Bridge
Doctor type and tried them on a few different guitars. As Dave M pointed
out, their effect on tone varies, and whether you like any change in
tone is a matter of personal taste. I happen to like a very tight sound
(eg my plywood-topped Maton) for fingerpicking, and kept one in one of
my guitars for that reason. However, when I came to sell it though my
mate's store, he removed it, saying that most wouldn't like it. However,
I know from long history that he and I have different ideas about what
sounds good.

Also my experience is that a flying brace might stop a top from bellying
further, but it won't reduce pre-existing bellying. - I split a bridge
trying to do that. As far as stopping bridge lifting is concerned, if I
was going to drill a hole in the bridge to install a screw-on type
Bridge Doctor, I would just go for a couple of bolts instead and forget
the brace. - It isn't what they are designed for.

[JD]

Some luthiers make a practice of scoring an "X"
pattern into the top where the top is glued. This
leaves all kinds of places where the strands have
nothing to hang on to and the bridge comes up with
a lovely diamond patterned cedar veneer. It
doesn't seem to affect spruce as much probably due
to much higher tensile strength between the fibers.

[dsi1]

On 7/26/2012 8:38 AM, Larry Pattis wrote:
> Steve Hawkins <stephen....@frontier.comREMOVETHIS> wrote:
>
>> That doesn't mean they don't know how. Lance always had 5 to 10 new
>> instruments in process, so he gave some customers the option of using
>> someone he recommends rather than waiting for him to get to it.
>>
>> Steve Hawkins
>
>
> Some do, and some don't.
>
> Back when I owned my guitar-shop I once had a "luthier" approach me
> with a few guitars he wanted to consign with me, or for me to buy
> outright for resale.
>
> I asked about his warranty policy. I asked whether he would cover
> neck-resets.
>
> He said he wasn't sure if he could get the neck joint apart to do a
> reset.
>
> Anyone can call themself a luthier or a guitar-tech.

They can and they do.

>
> The OP needs to find a human-being that is capable of a good and proper
> bridge re-glue.
>
> Period.
>

Holy smokes - that's just what I was thinking. :-)

[Les Cargill]

Tony Done wrote:
>
>> I agree with your repair guy that the bridge doctor is a sound-
>> killing piece of junk that contributed zero to keeping your bridge in
>> place. Give no further thought to bridge doctors.
>>
>
> A few years back I was experimenting with flying braces of the Bridge
> Doctor type and tried them on a few different guitars. As Dave M pointed
> out, their effect on tone varies, and whether you like any change in
> tone is a matter of personal taste. I happen to like a very tight sound
> (eg my plywood-topped Maton) for fingerpicking,

Total left turn here, but...

Tony, have you ever tried something like a Byrdland? I realize
they are roughly the price of a kidney, but... some
sorta deep dish jazzbox, anyway.

> and kept one in one of
> my guitars for that reason. However, when I came to sell it though my
> mate's store, he removed it, saying that most wouldn't like it. However,
> I know from long history that he and I have different ideas about what
> sounds good.
>
> Also my experience is that a flying brace might stop a top from bellying
> further, but it won't reduce pre-existing bellying. - I split a bridge
> trying to do that. As far as stopping bridge lifting is concerned, if I
> was going to drill a hole in the bridge to install a screw-on type
> Bridge Doctor, I would just go for a couple of bolts instead and forget
> the brace. - It isn't what they are designed for.
>
>

--

Les Cargill

[hank alrich]

Les Cargill <lcarg...@comcast.com> wrote:

> Total left turn here, but...
>
> Tony, have you ever tried something like a Byrdland? I realize
> they are roughly the price of a kidney, but... some
> sorta deep dish jazzbox, anyway.

Those are fun to play. A buddy in Austin has an old one in great shape.
The short scale makes it a good fit for hands like Shaidri's.

[Paul]

On 7/24/2012 9:47 PM, garybeck wrote:
> I've had a Seagull with cedar top for over 10 years now. I like the guitar but I've had a constant problem of the bridge coming off. Part of the problem (I think) is I like to use medium gauge strings (13s) which have higher tension.
>
> I've had the guitar in and the bridge fixed many times. One time a guy put a "Bridge Doctor" on there and it seemed to hold longer. But it was removed by the next repair guy, in an attempt to stop a rattling sound that was actually caused by a loose nut that holds the neck to the body. by the time he figured out it was the nut (and not the Bridge Doctor), the Bridge Doctor was already removed and he wasn't going to put it back on.... He tightened the nut to get rid of the rattling sound and re-attached bridge and it held for about a year.
>
> Now the bridge is coming off again. I called the repair guy back (the one who removed the bridge doctor) and he said it would be useless to put a bridge doctor back on, and the reason this keeps happening is simply because the top of the guitar is made of cedar which is a softer wood.
>
> he said I should basically give up on this guitar, especially if I want to keep using 13s. He said I've had it a long time and the top just isn't strong enough. He said he would put the bridge on one more time for no charge (since it only held for one year) but it probably won't last long before it comes off again.
>
> your thoughts? are medium gauge strings really that bad on all cedar top guitars? should I give up on this guitar? take it to a different repair guy? get a bridge doctor put on again?
>
> any thoughts are appreciated.

The bridge on my Martin started peeling off just like yours is
in the pics you posted.

I removed the bridge, scraped the old glue off, down to the wood,
and re-glued it with Elmer's wood glue (aliphatic resin). Used Stew-Mac
"U" clamps to clamp it over night. It's held tightly ever since, about
3 years now.

Are you certain the people who repaired this, scraped the old
glue off to the bare wood?

What kind of glue did they use?

If you are handy, it can be done at home.....

[don hindenach]

When FedEx smashed my 12-string that Harv and Lance had just worked on, Harv had Lance repair it. So Lance sent it down to Luke for the gluing and then Lance did the finish work. This was a case of playing to the strengths of each shop. That guitar was all over that side of the mountain!

--
-donh-
donh at audiosys dot com

[Tony Done]

I have given serious thought to an archtop guitar, but for slide, not
fingerpicking. The problem is I think that it would given any audience
inappropriate (higher!) expectations of what I play. - Much like Pat
Metheny said about the Pikasso guitar. I wouldn't want the audience to
think they were getting George Benson or maybe Eddie Cochrane

FWIW, Ibanez make some nice relatively inexpensive models.

[David Raleigh Arnold]

There is an alternative to bolting the bridge. You could
secure it with dowels. I have seen it done so well that
the dowels didn't even show. The dowel prevents shear,
which is probably most of the problem since the vertical
pull of the strings is so much less than the horizontal.
The dowels add no weight so they don't affect the
playing characteristics. With any luck at all.
Regards, daveA


--
Guitar teaching materials and original music for all styles and levels.
Site: http://www.openguitar.com (()) eMail: d.raleig...@gmail.com
Contact: http://www.openguitar.com/contact.html"

[Tony Done]

Nice idea, thanks for posting that. You could always put a cap over the
dowel for cosmetic reasons, as you would with a bolt. The only minus I
can see is that you would need to clamp it, where with a bolt you could
likely just screw it tight. It might also be more difficult to remove,
but I don't think reversibility is a major issue here.

[Phantom Post]

garybeck <garybe...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:4c234635-ccab-4c6e...@googlegroups.com:

> I think you can see there's a slight bow in the top but not huge.
> Also there is more of a gap under the bridge by the edges, than in the
> middle, indicating that the top is bowed somewhat. If I run my hand
> over the top i can feel it is bowed but with the eye it looks fairly
> flat.
>

So, with that said, I wonder if the bridge, rather than being flat on the
bottom, doesn't need to be fitted to the bowed top of the guitar much like
a bridge on an archtop is? Might make a more complete, stronger bonding
surface.

--

Pat

email: valid would be net

[David Raleigh Arnold]

Not necessary. Maybe a bit of veneer, but probably just stain
and lacquer.

as you would with a bolt. The only minus I
> can see is that you would need to clamp it, where with a bolt you could
> likely just screw it tight.

Drill, glue and bolt. Remove bolt, insert dowel, sand it flush.

> It might also be more difficult to remove,

You could easily drill it out.

> but I don't think reversibility is a major issue here.

[Alan Marshall]

Hi Gary,

I deliberately haven't looked at the pervious posts about this, so
here goes with my opinion as a luthier.

The most likely explanation as to your woes with this guitar are
indeed the use of medium gauge strings because the extra tension will
cause the top including the bridge to flex more than lighter strings
will, and if the footprint of the bridge isn't big enough to spread
the load enough it will stress the joint beyond what the cedar can
take. This will cause the fibres to loosen further weakening the joint
until it eventually starts to separate.

Two things will help if you like and want to keep the guitar.

First is to remove the existing bridge and have a slightly over sized
one made. This is common practice and won't affect the tone
noticeably, and to show what I mean if it was a typical pyramid bridge
of 6" x 1", making it 1/8" bigger all round would increase it's glue
area by 30% thus reducing the stress by reducing the load per square
inch significantly.
If you are worried about doing this, take a look at Martin spares,
they sell oversize bridges to hide damage when bridges need to be
removed for repairs and re-finishing, so it's no big deal.

Second, a bridge doctor will aid by reducing the flex in the top thus
reducing stress on the joint and as long as you like the tonal
difference that's good. Properly adjusted they don't rattle, I've used
dozens and only taken one out again when the guy did'nt like the
sound.

Add to this, I assume you don't play bluegrass so going down to light
guage strings actually improves the tone on most guitars by lowering
the inertia caused by the mass of the strings which generally has the
effect of cleaning up the bass, making the treble sing more sweetly
and speeding up the response of the top. The lower tension is
typically about 8 to 10% down as well.

Result of all or some of the steps above will greatly improve the
guitars durability.

The very first guitar I made has a cedar top and the bridge area is
around 7 square inches and has had a re-fret when it was 20 years old
and it is now just over 30 and has never had a problem with the
brigdge or anything else in all that time. It's been played every day
and regularly gigged for all its life apart from when it was
re-fretted when it had a week off!

I don't know where you are, but if you tell folks on here where you
are, I have no doubt someon can give you the name of a good luthier
who can do the work for you.

If you want to contact me, just search for Northworthy Guitars and
you'll get my e-mail address from the site.

Hope this helps

Alan Marshall

[Kevin Hall]

Hi Al;

Not only is cedar softer than spruce and less tough, it also has a chemical
composition which seems to make it harder to glue effectively. It requires
about double the clamp time for cedar glue joints to cure compared with
spruce, and of course in production time is money. Seagulls are
inexpensive instruments, so it's a safe bet they're made in a hurry.

Given that yours has had the bridge on and off several times it's also a
safe bet that the area of the top under the bridge is well contaminated with
adhesives, some of which may be compatible and some not. The chances of
getting a good durable joint there without increasing the contact patch of
the bridge are not good.

These days having a shop make and fit a new oversized bridge may well cost
you a sizeable portion of the actual resale value of your Seagull, but if
you're fond of the instrument it's the only way to go for a long term
solution.

Re the discussion of whether all builders are competent repairmen; a fair
number of modern builders have no background at all in repair work and
several that I know hate that aspect of the trade. Jean Larrivee, for
example is the first to admit he is not a repairman but his company stands
behind their products.

In my opinion the best way to get started in the trade is in a repair shop,
since by handling a wide variety of makes and models on a daily basis you
soon learn what works and what doesn't. You also become adept at diagnosing
problems and at working out solutions for them. This background stands a
builder in very good stead once he's designing, building and maintaining
his old instruments.

Over the past couple of decades a growing number of folks have entered the
trade either by apprenticing with established builders or by using the wide
variety of books, tapes, CDs etc. which were not available to those of us
who started in the 60s. Some of those folks are amazing builders, but many
lack any training in repair and resto work.

Getting back to the specific Seagull in question; through-bolting bridges
is never a good practice, as Gibson learned to their great cost many years
ago. If the glue joint fails, gradually reducing the contact patch between
top and bridge, then the bolts take up an increasing portion of the string
tension. This 'local loading' puts more and more tension into an
ever-decreasing area causing greater top distortion and eventually cracking
the top behind the bolts.

Way back the Italian company EKO used big pop rivets through the wings of
the bridges on their weapons-grade 12-strings, with similar results.

KH


"Al Evans" <a...@tbtm.org> wrote in message
news:al-87BF61.06...@news.individual.net...

> In article <juo3i5$oef$2...@speranza.aioe.org>,
> Tony Done <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> ...put bolts in the bridge as many cheapos had in the past.
>
> It sounds like you've been making this Seagull earn its keep!
>
> I think I agree with Tony, though I'm insulted by the implication that
> my Gallaghers are "cheapos" :-)
>

> As I recall, cedar is inherently more difficult to glue things to than
> spruce. And using medium strings results in a notably higher tension. So
> it may be that the particular top you have won't hold glue well enough
> for the higher-tension strings.
>
> It does seem as though the Bridge Doctor would be superfluous, unless
> the higher tension was actually pulling the top out of shape.
>
> The best thing would be to find a "real luthier", as Steve has
> suggested. But failing that, it's hard to see how bolting the bridge to
> the bridge plate could hurt much.
>
> --Al Evans--

[Steve Daniels]

On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 10:52:47 -0400, against all advice, something
compelled "Kevin Hall" <timbe...@webhart.net>, to say:

>These days having a shop make and fit a new oversized bridge may well cost
>you a sizeable portion of the actual resale value of your Seagull, but if
>you're fond of the instrument it's the only way to go for a long term
>solution.

So, no drywall screws?

[hank alrich]

Not without a nice chunk of gypsum board backing the bridge plate.

--

[Ed Edelenbos iPad]

hank alrich <walk...@nv.net> wrote:
> Steve Daniels <sdan...@gorge.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 10:52:47 -0400, against all advice, something
>> compelled "Kevin Hall" <timbe...@webhart.net>, to say:
>>
>>> These days having a shop make and fit a new oversized bridge may well cost
>>> you a sizeable portion of the actual resale value of your Seagull, but if
>>> you're fond of the instrument it's the only way to go for a long term
>>> solution.
>>
>>
>> So, no drywall screws?
>
> Not without a nice chunk of gypsum board backing the bridge plate.

and a couple globs of Liquid Nails...

[Les Cargill]

I am now thinking of Larry the Cable Guy's chipboard guitar.

--
Les Cargill

[Kevin Hall]

Coincidentally, right after I read this thread I had an old cedar-topped
Seagull wander in for a bridge job. Once I had the bridge off the first
thing I noticed was that the area of the top which had the finish removed
for gluing the bridge was roughly 3/16" smaller all around than the actual
footprint of the bridge. This effectively reduces the contact patch by 3/8"
fore and aft, which is a considerable percentage of the available joint
area.

In addition, rather than sitting on the top the bridge is hung up on that
3/16" wide perimeter of finish, greatly aggravating the job of what ever
glue is used. The finish is roughly .006" thick, which means that rather
than a good close fitting glue joint you have a .006" gap between the
reduced area of the bridge and the top. Not a happy combination especially
in cedar.

Before I take off a lifting bridge I drill two small dia. ( approx. .075")
holes through the bottom of the saddle slot, one at each end. I'll
usually measure and space these holes .234" from each of the E strings so
that if the client wants to add an undersaddle pickup, particularly a
Fishman at some point the hole is in the right spot for the cable.

These little holes allow me to use round toothpicks as dowels to accurately
locate the bridge once it is ready to go back down. Before I peel the
bridge off I carefully scribe around it with a sharp scalpel, taking
several light cuts to get just through the finish all the way around. Once
that's done and the bridge lifted I can then go back and scoop the excess
finish off the top using my big bracing chisel, ensuring a 100% wood to
wood fit between bridge and top. Any residual glue from previous jobs is
then removed from both top and bridge and the rest of the job goes forward
without fuss.