Flatpicking arpeggios - a question
Brian
the most common approach for picking through arpeggios - a single
up/downstroke, or with alternate picking?
thanks,
brian
Steve Cobham
<brianNO...@SPhotAMmail.com> wrote:
>I am trying to learn some classical music. When playing with a pick,
Presumably you intend to play classical guitar music with a pick -
which is going to prove rather difficult to do effectively as the
style required is fingerstyle, unless you just intend playing lead
lines.
>what is
>the most common approach for picking through arpeggios - a single
>up/downstroke, or with alternate picking?
It depends on what sort of arpeggio it is.
From now on used a fixed pitch font such as Courier New if you aren't
already!
If it's a regular arpeggio - that is to say with a hierarchy of pitch
- such as:
----------2-----------
-------3-----3--------
----2-----------2-----
--0-------------------
----------------------
----------------------
- then you'd pick down, down, down, up, up, up. The next time through
you're ready with a downstroke to start all over again.
If it was an irregular or "broken" arpeggio then it's a little more
involved.
----------2----------
------3-----3-----3--
----2---2------2-----
--0------------------
---------------------
---------------------
Correct sequence here would be:
Down, down, up, down, up, up, down, up.
Generally speaking, if you're actually picking a string that's
physically down (that is nearer the floor) from where you currently
are, then pick with a downstroke - when picking a string that's up
from where you are then pick with an upstroke. When you want to
reverse direction then reverse the pickstroke.
This simple exercise skipping between adjacent strings neatly
illustrates it:
----0-----0-----0-----0---
-0-----0-----0-----0-----0-
D U D U D U D U D
If you played with all downstrokes then you'd really be working twice
as hard as you need to. It'd also sound rather heavy-handed as
upstokes and downstrokes have very subtly different sounds.
Caveat - all rules are meant to be broken ;)
Steve.
--
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Brian
electric (sweep picking), but for some reason thought that the chordal
arpeggios were done with alternate picking. Basically, I am just trying to
figure out how best to play classical and flamenco lines that are intended
to be played using PAMI.
I would like to grow my nails and play the way it is meant to, but that
would intefere with my electric playing. Any advice for people that want to
do both? I heard about inserts at one point, which I am sure must be
considered a joke by dedicated, authentic players. Thought I would ask
though!
later,
brian
"Steve Cobham" <st...@XSPAMXguitarsXMAPSX.powernet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ptmkf0pgcrjlk6e50...@4ax.com...
Paul Asbell
Steve Cobham wrote:
>(..snip of RH picking description for arpeggios...)
>
>
>Generally speaking, if you're actually picking a string that's
>physically down (that is nearer the floor) from where you currently
>are, then pick with a downstroke - when picking a string that's up
>from where you are then pick with an upstroke. When you want to
>reverse direction then reverse the pickstroke.
>
>This simple exercise skipping between adjacent strings neatly
>illustrates it:
>
>----0-----0-----0-----0---
>-0-----0-----0-----0-----0-
> D U D U D U D U D
>
>.....
>Caveat - all rules are meant to be broken ;)
>
>
Steve's last sentence is VERY important... if you want to go as far as
to say there ARE rules at all!...:)
For example, in any earlier thread re flatpicking "classical-type" music
on nylon strings (which is an EXTREMELY unorthodox approach, BTW) Al
DiMeola was cited as an example of what the OP wished to find material
like. John McLaughlin was cited as another example to check out.
Both these guys play all SORTS of arpeggios in their improvs... and they
observe a strictly alternating RH style for practically everything. So,
when they're playing the simple D arp shown earlier in Steve Cobham's
ASCII, they'd pick D-U-D-U-D-U-D-U.. etc... just as Steve recommends in
the 2 string example shown above. The picking method Steve recommends in
his earlier post is essentially what is known as "sweep picking", 'cuz
you're sweeping, or dragging, the pick over the strings in one
direction, for as long as feasible, as opposed to changing pick
direction every note as in alternate picking. Sweep picking is
inherently more efficient.
The rationale for strict alternating picking, even for arpeggios that
can more easily be "swept", is that it's more conducive to playing w/
powerful rhythmic drive, once one has mastered the inherently less
"efficient" motions involved.
But- as Steve noted- there ain't any hard-and-fast rules w/ picking. If
there WERE, then the answer to the OP would be "One never plays
classical guitar with a pick-ever!"...:)
Paul
Paul Asbell
www.paulasbell.com
sycochkn
fingernails interfere with playing the electric guitar?
Bob
"Brian" <brianNO...@SPhotAMmail.com> wrote in message
news:OFuKc.7934$5Y....@cyclops.nntpserver.com...
Steve Cobham
wrote:
>
>
>Steve Cobham wrote:
>
>>(..snip of RH picking description for arpeggios...)
>>
>>
>>Generally speaking, if you're actually picking a string that's
>>physically down (that is nearer the floor) from where you currently
>>are, then pick with a downstroke - when picking a string that's up
>>from where you are then pick with an upstroke. When you want to
>>reverse direction then reverse the pickstroke.
>>
>>This simple exercise skipping between adjacent strings neatly
>>illustrates it:
>>
>>----0-----0-----0-----0---
>>-0-----0-----0-----0-----0-
>> D U D U D U D U D
>>
>>.....
>>Caveat - all rules are meant to be broken ;)
>>
>>
>
>Steve's last sentence is VERY important... if you want to go as far as
>to say there ARE rules at all!...:)
Indeed, which brings me on to something else which I only became aware
of recently, although like many similar things is nothing really new,
although actually thinking about it is..........
>
>the simple D arp shown earlier in Steve Cobham's
>ASCII, they'd pick D-U-D-U-D-U-D-U.. etc... just as Steve recommends in
>the 2 string example shown above. The picking method Steve recommends in
>his earlier post is essentially what is known as "sweep picking", 'cuz
>you're sweeping, or dragging, the pick over the strings in one
>direction, for as long as feasible, as opposed to changing pick
>direction every note as in alternate picking. Sweep picking is
>inherently more efficient.
...........another totally diferent way of looking at that little
exercise is in terms of "inside" and "outside" picking.
That little ASCII exercise would be classed as "outside" picking -
you're taking the pick from outside the lower string - say just above
the low E - and then moving it down to just below the A.
However, another way to perform this same task and play the same notes
would be to start just below the low E, pick it and then move down to
the A string. "Inside" picking.
Same result, totally different action. And I bet almost everybody does
it from time to time and doesn't even realise it!
I realise that this is primarily a "shred" - sorry ;) - technique but
ever since I first saw it I've become aware of how it can sometimes
get you out of a tricky situation, rather than just stumbling upon the
"correct" way by accident.
Apologies to those to whom this is old news, but it was only when
leafing through an old magazine looking for an article about something
else entirely that I came across it, read it and thought, I do that
but I never realised I did!
>But- as Steve noted- there ain't any hard-and-fast rules w/ picking. If
>there WERE, then the answer to the OP would be "One never plays
>classical guitar with a pick-ever!"...:)
Well, the late, great Tommy Tedecso wouldn't have made as much money
at sessions certainly ;)
Steve Cobham
<brianNO...@SPhotAMmail.com> wrote:
>Thanks for the great reply. I am accustomed to playing arpeggios that way on
>electric (sweep picking), but for some reason thought that the chordal
>arpeggios were done with alternate picking. Basically, I am just trying to
>figure out how best to play classical and flamenco lines that are intended
>to be played using PAMI.
>
>I would like to grow my nails and play the way it is meant to, but that
>would intefere with my electric playing. Any advice for people that want to
>do both? I heard about inserts at one point, which I am sure must be
>considered a joke by dedicated, authentic players. Thought I would ask
>though!
Ever since I read that playing with long nails a lot can pull them
away from the nailbed, I've adopted a shortish nail/fingertip approach
in which I get a little attack from the nail without much risk to my
fingers
Of course, I may be avoiding something which is a bit of a myth, but
as nails being removed can be classed as torture, I'm keen to avoid it
- irrational though it may be ;)
TBH, most of the time, unless I'm playing straight classical, I use
hybrid picking which is a cross between a basic clawhammer style and
flatpicking. Again, something I wound up doing way before I discovered
it had a name - hybrid picking. It gives me the best of both worlds
and make double stops of non-adjacent strings easier.
sycochkn
the string, that would cause clicks in the sound, you sort of push down and
slide them along the string at an angle, toward the palm.
I have lost nail tips, while fingerpicking the 12 string, due to having a
nick in them. I now only flatpick my steel string guitars.
Bob
"Steve Cobham" <st...@XSPAMXguitarsXMAPSX.powernet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:m54lf0ds7fj3bg5dt...@4ax.com...
David Kilpatrick
Brian wrote:
Pick-style playing for classical guitar music *repertoire* is not always
practical, but you can find a large volume of baroque music
(particularly Scottish, Irish, French, Italian etc tunes) which consists
of just a single line with occasional added harmony on a single bass
string. It is not all originally for guitar - not in the modern sense -
and was written for any melody instrument, ranging from fiddle to
mandolin, oboe, cittern (a popular guitar alternative with wire strings
giving a harpsichord like sound). Because playing with a plectrum was
just as common as playing with fingers 300 years ago, this music was
popular.
Examples - Geminiani's exercises and tutor for guittar or cittra,
Oswald's 12 Divertimentos for guittar, and countless books of violin
tunes. Finding them is another matter, all my copies are photostats from
museum collections provided by other players.
Unless there was a special reason to use an upstroke with the pick for
the descending part of an arpeggio, I might stick to downstrokes all the
time. It can produce a more consistent tone and volume.
One worthwhile hint is to use a very different type of pick. I have a
large ebony wood one made by John Pearse for gut-strung picked
instruments, which it very fat and has a smooth tip, as well as a deep
groove for the thumb which makes it physically impossible to 'dig in'.
This creates a very even up or down stroke sound and slides over the
string a little, so it can execute fast tremolos without sounding
clicky. There's a type of fat pick for regular guitars made from a
transparent jelly like plastic, which is not exactly like this handmade
item, but almost gets the same feel.
David
jsp
>
> I would like to grow my nails and play the way it is meant to, but that
> would intefere with my electric playing. Any advice for people that want to
> do both? I heard about inserts at one point, which I am sure must be
> considered a joke by dedicated, authentic players. Thought I would ask
> though!
I think you overestimate how long the nails would have to be grown.
My nails are quite long enough to pluck strings, but don't come anywhere
near interfereing with electric guitar.
A quick glance tells me that I have them about 2mm long: looked at side
on, the nail doesn't extend beyond the fleshy tip of my fingers.
--
John
Brian
don't feel challenged technically. I became obsessed early on and took to it
well. But now I am just mesmerized by classical and flamenco. I feel drawn
(more towards classical). I actually started learning a classical song
today - Leyenda. It is actually coming along well, except for the part where
it becomes sextuplets. Man the RH technique is curious! But I feel if I
stick with it I will develop the technique readily.
Dimeola was impressive, but when I watch him, I feel that I can pull it all
off because of the picking thing. But with the clasical and flamenco
players, I have this sense of wonder, like the same feeling that got me into
electric. And holy shit - my wife and I saw the Czech Guitar Duo in Prague.
Husband and wife classical/flamenco duo. Talk about being blown away. Way
more so than the the Al Dimeola/Manuel Barrueco concert that my wife and I
saw a couple night ago in Munich.
Anyway, I am really looking forward to exploring this more. And it was
enlightening learning about the fingernails not needing to be that long. But
if they don't go beyond the fleshy tip, then how are they contacting the
string? I guess I need to take some classical lessons in order to demystify
certain aspects.
regards,
"Brian" <brianNO...@SPhotAMmail.com> wrote in message
news:cpsKc.6878$5Y....@cyclops.nntpserver.com...
sycochkn
Bob
"Brian" <brianNO...@SPhotAMmail.com> wrote in message
news:NkzKc.9782$5Y....@cyclops.nntpserver.com...
JoeT
right ... nails should not be pulling away from flesh as a trade for good
tone. It doesn't take much to get a clear ringing tone.
As far as picking PAMI ... PAMI
"Steve Cobham" <st...@XSPAMXguitarsXMAPSX.powernet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:m54lf0ds7fj3bg5dt...@4ax.com...
nog
4ax.com>, st...@XSPAMXguitarsXMAPSX.powernet.co.uk
says...
> Ever since I read that playing with long nails a lot can pull them
> away from the nailbed, I've adopted a shortish nail/fingertip approach
> in which I get a little attack from the nail without much risk to my
> fingers
>
> Of course, I may be avoiding something which is a bit of a myth, but
> as nails being removed can be classed as torture, I'm keen to avoid it
> - irrational though it may be ;)
If your nails are as tough as mine, you'll find that
separation from the nailbed is no myth.
--
Peter
http://www.beaufortjazz.com/
Guitarists play jazz at The Beaufort every first
Monday
Steve Cobham
wrote:
>In article <m54lf0ds7fj3bg5dtvl6s9q907j82b2k7n@
>4ax.com>, st...@XSPAMXguitarsXMAPSX.powernet.co.uk
>says...
>> Ever since I read that playing with long nails a lot can pull them
>> away from the nailbed, I've adopted a shortish nail/fingertip approach
>> in which I get a little attack from the nail without much risk to my
>> fingers
>>
>> Of course, I may be avoiding something which is a bit of a myth, but
>> as nails being removed can be classed as torture, I'm keen to avoid it
>> - irrational though it may be ;)
>
>If your nails are as tough as mine, you'll find that
>separation from the nailbed is no myth.
Yes, but I'm a wuss ;)
Seriously, my nails seem to chip and break if I'm using them a lot and
they're in need of a trim, so I guess that the strength of them is
rather less than the strength of the nailbed.
misifus
> In article <m54lf0ds7fj3bg5dtvl6s9q907j82b2k7n@
> 4ax.com>, st...@XSPAMXguitarsXMAPSX.powernet.co.uk
> says...
>
>>Ever since I read that playing with long nails a lot can pull them
>>away from the nailbed, I've adopted a shortish nail/fingertip approach
>>in which I get a little attack from the nail without much risk to my
>>fingers
>>
>>Of course, I may be avoiding something which is a bit of a myth, but
>>as nails being removed can be classed as torture, I'm keen to avoid it
>>- irrational though it may be ;)
>
>
> If your nails are as tough as mine, you'll find that
> separation from the nailbed is no myth.
>
I've been playing with longish nails for a long time and my nails
are, well, tough as nails. While I've suffered most of the
injuries to them which can happen, I've never had a separation
from the nail bed *due to playing guitar*. Due to a wrench
slipping, yes, due to a heavy crate shifting unexpectedly, sure,
but never due simply to playing, and I use fairly heavy rest strokes.
-Raf
--
Misifus-
Rafael Seibert
mailto:rsei...@cox-internet.com
http://www.ralphandsue.com
JoeT
seperating from flesh ... I'm not a hard and heavy player either and that
would make a big difference.
"nog" <sodthis...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b656fb03...@News.individual.DE...
nog
4ax.com>, st...@XSPAMXguitarsXMAPSX.powernet.co.uk
says...
> On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 06:42:46 +0100, nog <sodthis...@gmx.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <m54lf0ds7fj3bg5dtvl6s9q907j82b2k7n@
> >4ax.com>, st...@XSPAMXguitarsXMAPSX.powernet.co.uk
> >says...
> >> Ever since I read that playing with long nails a lot can pull them
> >> away from the nailbed, I've adopted a shortish nail/fingertip approach
> >> in which I get a little attack from the nail without much risk to my
> >> fingers
> >>
> >> Of course, I may be avoiding something which is a bit of a myth, but
> >> as nails being removed can be classed as torture, I'm keen to avoid it
> >> - irrational though it may be ;)
> >
> >If your nails are as tough as mine, you'll find that
> >separation from the nailbed is no myth.
>
> Yes, but I'm a wuss ;)
>
> Seriously, my nails seem to chip and break if I'm using them a lot and
> they're in need of a trim, so I guess that the strength of them is
> rather less than the strength of the nailbed.
While that bit of yield may be superficially
frustrating, it will save you a lot of discomfort.
OTOH <pun>, I have a particular detachment problem
with the nail on the forefinger [1] of my fretting
hand if I fret with my finger close to perpendicular.
[1] which tapers towards the nail.
Sleepy Fingers Jones
wrote:
>
>While that bit of yield may be superficially
>frustrating, it will save you a lot of discomfort.
>OTOH <pun>, I have a particular detachment problem
>with the nail on the forefinger [1] of my fretting
>hand if I fret with my finger close to perpendicular.
>
Cut your bloody fingernails short, then.
Pete
Henry Clifford
Thomas Kirchhoff - they are based in Germany.
As for approaching classical music with a pick, if it pleases you,
then by all means do it! Moreover, realize that if you want to play
popular CG pieces from the last three centuries, you'll be required to
use RH fingers. The Classical guitar FAQ is a convenient place to
start:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/music/classical/guitar/faq/
As for RH nails, they need not be very long long. Turn your hand so
that the palm is facing up and look at the finger tips (and thumb)
from the strings perspective. If you can see a mm or two of nail
overhang, then you've enough nail to work with. For a different
perspective, turn you hand so that the palm faces your stomach. Look
at the distance between the tip of the flesh and the end of the nail
bed (where the nail begins to turn white). The nail must be at least
this long to properly contact the string. This distance will vary from
person to person. People with more fingertip meat generally need
longer nails. Although out of print, Pepe Romero's Guitar Technique
book explains nail length and shape better than anything I've yet seen
(which isn't saying too much).
Bill Kannengiser's Effortless Classical Guitar video would be well
worth the cost. He does a great job of explaining basic RH and LH
mechanics. Both Bill and Scott Tennant (author of the popular Pumping
Nylon books) are former Pepe Romero students.
Also, check out Pepe's CD's. He gives so much life to everything he
records, but you'll probably get a big kick out of his version of
Sor's Opus #9. His versions of Tarrega's Capricho Arabe and Recuerdos
de la Alhambra are IMHO definitive. His rendition of Rodrigo's music
is unsurpassed IMHO.
You may (or may not) be realize at how much thought and microscopic
detail occurs in the classical guitar world. Getting a good teacher is
probably the best way to ensure progress. The sooner you get one, the
less the likely you'll develop habits that limit later progress.
-HC-
"Brian" <brianNO...@SPhotAMmail.com> wrote in message news:<NkzKc.9782$5Y....@cyclops.nntpserver.com>...
nog
4ax.com>, persisten...@NOSPAM.yahoo.com
says...
I bloody well do. :-)