Jean Larrivee
rtmca
reposting a small portion of it:
Actually, what surprised me the most was how many junkies there are in
Vancouver, and how the Canadians just sort of soldier on with all
these
self-destructive heroin addicts in their midst. Americans would all
be packing
pistols and jumping at the slightest sound, but the Canadian attitude
seemed to
be: "Yeah, well, they're sick and they'll steal you blind, but what
can you do?
Just don't leave anything valuable within sight in your car."
Larrivee's factory is right down in one of the worst drug-ridden
neighborhoods
in Vancouver. There was some sympathetic eye-rolling when I told
Matthew and
the receptionist some of what I had seen in Chinatown (another druggy
area)
that day, but they seemed resigned to the problem, as if to say:
"Yeah, well,
we're here to build guitars."
On that trip back across the U.S. border Duane told me how Jean has
put
employees into counseling and drug rehab when needed, instead of
firing them,
like many companies might do. "The problem's everywhere," Duane said,
"and
you're not going to make it go away by firing people. Jean's not
going to lose
the training he's put into these people if he can avoid it, so he does
what he
can to bring them back around. He serves as a father figure for a lot
of
people in the industry, not just for that company."
I'd say the whole Larrivee operation is a good example of how to do it
right.
Wade Hampton Miller
I am really getting in to playing the classical I brought that was
personally handemade by Jean Larrivee. It has a sweetness of spirit
and an expressiveness I've never personally encountered in a classical
before (I'm sure there are $10K ones that are great but this one is
truly special). It makes me wonder what kind of person built it.
Wade's post sheds some light.
Robert
TarBabyTunes
Nice post, thanks very much!
It's a very good time to be spreading some common sense, sensitivity and
compassion.
steveV
Ken Cashion
>Apologies to Wade--I stumbled across this old post of wades and am
>reposting a small portion of it:
>Actually, what surprised me the most was how many junkies there are in
>Vancouver, and how the Canadians just sort of soldier on with all
>these
>self-destructive heroin addicts in their midst. Americans would all
>be packing
>pistols and jumping at the slightest sound, but the Canadian attitude
>seemed to
>be: "Yeah, well, they're sick and they'll steal you blind, but what
>can you do?
> Just don't leave anything valuable within sight in your car."
>
>Larrivee's factory is right down in one of the worst drug-ridden
>neighborhoods
>in Vancouver. There was some sympathetic eye-rolling when I told
>Matthew and
>the receptionist some of what I had seen in Chinatown (another druggy
>area)
>that day, but they seemed resigned to the problem, as if to say:
>"Yeah, well,
>we're here to build guitars."
I don't see how the social work can contribute to building
guitars. I wonder if the company would move to another area if they
could do it for no change in cost. And if they could, would they move
to an area with more social problems or to one with less.
People battling addictions are less than efficient -- often.
I have worked in a company like we are talking about.
>On that trip back across the U.S. border Duane told me how Jean has
>put
>employees into counseling and drug rehab when needed, instead of
>firing them,
He keeps paying them I assume and this, I would think should
come from his pocket, rather than from company overhead costs. The
company is supposed to be building guitars.
>like many companies might do. "The problem's everywhere," Duane said,
>"and
>you're not going to make it go away by firing people. Jean's not
>going to lose
>the training he's put into these people if he can avoid it, so he does
>what he
>can to bring them back around. He serves as a father figure for a lot
>of
>people in the industry, not just for that company."
Commendable but still...they are supposed to be building
guitars.
>I'd say the whole Larrivee operation is a good example of how to do it
>right.
While I laud those who want to help the less fortunate...even
if we include those who inflict wounds on themselves; however, I think
this should be done in a little more pure manner...I wonder how much
the guitars would cost, if he trimmed his "overhead" and concentrated
on labor and material.
>getting in to playing the classical I brought that was
>personally handemade by Jean Larrivee. It has a sweetness of spirit
>and an expressiveness I've never personally encountered in a classical
>before (I'm sure there are $10K ones that are great but this one is
>truly special). It makes me wonder what kind of person built it.
>Wade's post sheds some light.
Well, maybe employee distractions can contribute to a person's
drive and desire for perfection.
Ken Cashion, business of businesses is business...see "How
much to charge for wedding" thread.
And yes, I am opposed to maternity and paternity leave and
on-premises health centers (called "wellness centers"), and
company-provided child care.
Unless...the workers integrate their family plans into company
schedules and get approval from the company to increase their
families. Let the company be a company.
Of course, some people may disagree with me. :o)
George W.
<snip>
>And yes, I am opposed to maternity and paternity leave and
>on-premises health centers (called "wellness centers"), and
>company-provided child care.
> Unless...the workers integrate their family plans into company
>schedules and get approval from the company to increase their
>families. Let the company be a company.
> Of course, some people may disagree with me. :o)
You think?
It's not often you see a businessman criticized for behaving in a
socially responsible manner. I don't know if you're familiar with
Larrivee guitars, Ken, but they make some of the best factory built
instruments around, selling at a price well below many of their
competitors. They are very much in the business of building guitars
and doing a pretty good job. Of course you may disagree with me too.
<g>
G.
Steve Hawkins
news:3e695343...@news.datasync.com:
>
> And yes, I am opposed to maternity and paternity leave and
> on-premises health centers (called "wellness centers"), and
> company-provided child care.
> Unless...the workers integrate their family plans into company
> schedules and get approval from the company to increase their
> families. Let the company be a company.
> Of course, some people may disagree with me. :o)
That would be me. :-)
Considering that babies were being produced long before Ugh-Ugh the caveman
discovered fire, I would say a company that doesn't plan for children is
doomed to fail. The mere thought of having to ask your boss for permission
to have children is so bad I can't think of an adequate word to express it.
Some companies have tried it though and I'm glad laws now exist to prevent
it. Workers are People and Families work! I would also point out that a
lot of todays workers are also shareholders and comprise a significant
voting block in their company.
"Let the company be a company."? Better take another look at what makes
up a "Company".
Steve Hawkins
Ken Cashion
wrote:
>On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 02:36:18 GMT, Ken Cashion wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>And yes, I am opposed to maternity and paternity leave and
>>on-premises health centers (called "wellness centers"), and
>>company-provided child care.
>> Unless...the workers integrate their family plans into company
>>schedules and get approval from the company to increase their
>>families. Let the company be a company.
>> Of course, some people may disagree with me. :o)
>
>You think?
>
>It's not often you see a businessman criticized for behaving in a
>socially responsible manner.
My point was to not mix the two (social concerns and business)
if the mix affects the price of the product.
>I don't know if you're familiar with
>Larrivee guitars, Ken, but they make some of the best factory built
>instruments around, selling at a price well below many of their
>competitors. They are very much in the business of building guitars
>and doing a pretty good job. Of course you may disagree with me too.
><g>
Nope...I do not disagree about the product. It is a good one
and for the sound vs. dollar, it seems a good deal...at least from the
ones I've played...I wish the position marks were bigger and more
obvious.
Ken Cashion, who believes a good guitar is a good
guitar...regardless of where it is made or by whom. It matters not a
whit to him if it is built by socially aware people or in a sweat
shop.
Ken Cashion
wrote:
>kcas...@datasync.com (Ken Cashion) wrote in
>news:3e695343...@news.datasync.com:
>
>>
>> And yes, I am opposed to maternity and paternity leave and
>> on-premises health centers (called "wellness centers"), and
>> company-provided child care.
>> Unless...the workers integrate their family plans into company
>> schedules and get approval from the company to increase their
>> families. Let the company be a company.
>> Of course, some people may disagree with me. :o)
>
>That would be me. :-)
And not just you, Steve, but most everyone on the receiving
end of such socially popular (I repeat myself) changes to business
practices. :o)
>Considering that babies were being produced long before Ugh-Ugh the caveman
>discovered fire, I would say a company that doesn't plan for children is
>doomed to fail.
If the business markets to children, then I would agree with
you. If they are producing pipe wrenches, babies should not be in
their strategy statements, goals, objectives, and the like.
> The mere thought of having to ask your boss for permission
>to have children is so bad I can't think of an adequate word to express it.
"Business concern" would be what I would think it should be
called. A worker can assume all the responsibility for having a child
and the company provides no programs for the child; or, have the child
when it does not impact company production and the company will
provide leave and day care. Each worker has a choice.
We think of this as being a bad idea because at one time, it
wasn't any of the companies' business when someone wanted to have a
child; however, other groups proposed differently and the workers
thought it a good idea that the company be involved in their life when
they had a child and that the company should assume some
responsibility in the raising and nurturing of that child.
Now that the company has the leaves programs and child-care
centers, I think it is justified that the company be involved in
family planning. The companies didn't do this; they didn't consider
it any of their business either.
This has changed, but only on one side. I think it should
change on both sides. If families want the company to be involved in
their families and raising the child, then the company should have
their say in the process. This is particularly true now when young
people get their education and start their careers, and then when that
is going OK, they schedule having 1.5 children.
I think it should be a mutal discussion. The company might
suggest that the female executive put off having a child by six months
because of some critical proposals the company may want the woman to
work on, or at least be told a year in advance when she will remove
her valuable talent from the companies use. The company can make
appropriate arrangements according to the company's needs.
A woman applying for an important job, and this means a job
where her direct performance affects the bottom line, should be asked
if there are any reasons she might be withdrawn from the production
team in the next year.
They are not permitted to ask her if she is pregnant, yet if
she is, she expects the company to fork out some amounts of money from
their overhead toward her maternity time away from the job.
Family planning was not introduced by businesses but workers
forced the businesses to be involved in "bringing up baby." So, let
the companies have their say.
If we had a daughter who continuely had children and each time
she did, she brought it home to g'pa and g'ma to raise, wouldn't it be
appropriate for g'pa and g'ma to have a say in the matter?
Change "daughter" to any female producing babies.
>Some companies have tried it though and I'm glad laws now exist to prevent
>it. Workers are People and Families work!
I would agree with the principal if child labor laws weren't.
:o)
> I would also point out that a
>lot of todays workers are also shareholders and comprise a significant
>voting block in their company.
Yep, and when their pension goes south from loss of profit,
they, like a lot of union workers, do not assume any responsibility
for the poor financial health of the company.
I don't think a lot of workers consider the company to be
anything but the opposition.
I like "profit sharing" a whole lot because over time, it
teaches the employees that they often have a great effect on the
bottom line. They are not only part owners, they are partners.
I think they should be told what their desired programs cost
the company...their company.
>"Let the company be a company."? Better take another look at what makes
>up a "Company".
I have. Let them deal in the world of finance, services, and
products on an open market for the benefit of all the owners of the
company.
By the way, have you seen, "Other People's Money." I would
rather work for G. Peck but I would rather have my investments with
Larry "the Liquidator." :o)
Ken Cashion, bottom line guy. :o)
rtmca
think part of what I was getting at is that the guitar he personally
made by hand is full of nuance and sweetness.
It may be a silly idea, but perhaps the artist cannot be separated
from his personality.
Take Ira Samick for instance (RIP). He was a no nonsense businessman
who once publically flogged an employee
for taking off to attend her father's funeral. Perhaps he would have
let her go, but the employee failed to beg for permission (actually it
especially hard for her to grovel enough for Ira's liking anyway,
seeing as she was wheelchair bound.
Another time, one of the guys in charge of the conveyor belt that
carried guitars through the assembly line had been in a carwreck the
hour before he arrived at work. He suddenly lapsed into a petite mal
seisure that caused him to not slow the belt down to a slow enough
pace (below 5 mph) so that the tops could be braced and tuned by the
robots. When he came out of it Ira was standing over him, kicking him
in the side with his steel tipped gators. Ira called him every name in
the book and revoked his permission for the employee and his barren
wife to adopt a Russian baby. Since the child was already in route,
Ira phoned the airline and requested they "dispose" of the problem,
which they did (he was a major stockholder, it turns out). Play one
of Iras Samick guitars and see for yourself if the soul of the maker
(or lack therof) is reflected in his instruments.
Robert
George W.
>On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 11:24:12 -0500, George W. <geow...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 02:36:18 GMT, Ken Cashion wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>And yes, I am opposed to maternity and paternity leave and
>>>on-premises health centers (called "wellness centers"), and
>>>company-provided child care.
>>> Unless...the workers integrate their family plans into company
>>>schedules and get approval from the company to increase their
>>>families. Let the company be a company.
>>> Of course, some people may disagree with me. :o)
>>
>>You think?
>>
>>It's not often you see a businessman criticized for behaving in a
>>socially responsible manner.
>
> My point was to not mix the two (social concerns and business)
>if the mix affects the price of the product.
I find it difficult to NOT mix the two, regardless if it results in a
higher priced product. I'm not sure I follow your reasoning but of
course that may be because we disagree on some fundamental issues. Are
you opposed to environmental controls as well? If a business were to
move to a country where enviromental controls or labor laws are
non-existent in order to offer their product at a lower price would
you buy their product?
>>I don't know if you're familiar with
>>Larrivee guitars, Ken, but they make some of the best factory built
>>instruments around, selling at a price well below many of their
>>competitors. They are very much in the business of building guitars
>>and doing a pretty good job. Of course you may disagree with me too.
>><g>
>
> Nope...I do not disagree about the product. It is a good one
>and for the sound vs. dollar, it seems a good deal...at least from the
>ones I've played...I wish the position marks were bigger and more
>obvious.
>
> Ken Cashion, who believes a good guitar is a good
>guitar...regardless of where it is made or by whom. It matters not a
>whit to him if it is built by socially aware people or in a sweat
>shop.
Really? Well, that clears things up........
G.
Hedberg
wrote:
[...]
>
> Nope...I do not disagree about the product. It is a good one
>and for the sound vs. dollar, it seems a good deal...at least from the
>ones I've played...I wish the position marks were bigger and more
>obvious.
>
Maybe if they didn't waste all that money on their workers, they could
afford more prominent position markers.
Harold
Fred Shrimer
:-)
I agree about the position markers.
Fred
JD
"Fred Shrimer" <ftsh...@removethiscrap.telus.net> wrote in message
news:3E6A97F1...@removethiscrap.telus.net...
Position markers are for beginners who spend their time in an awkward
position looking at the fingerboard for a clue where to place their fingers.
JD (No inlay at all on *my* Larrivee)
ple...@nospam.us
>Position markers are for beginners who spend their time in an awkward
>position looking at the fingerboard for a clue where to place their fingers.
>
>JD (No inlay at all on *my* Larrivee)
I must be a beginner, by that definition. I just gave Jamie
Kinscherff my 7-string baritone to enlarge the side dots. I
find I use the side dots quite a bit more than I thought I
would. There is no inlay on the fretting surface.
Actually, on the 7-banger, I feel like a beginner at times so I
guess that's OK.
Al Sato
--
Reply to al_guitar "at" clifftopmusic "dot" com
Bob Alman
> Position markers are for beginners who spend their time in an awkward
> position looking at the fingerboard for a clue where to place their fingers.
Oh, horseshit! I just need them so I know where
to place my capo!
--
Bob Alman
Ken Cashion
wrote:
Yes, Sir. I do not force my status across borders. Folks in
S.A. have insect problems we don't have and they need pesticides that
are banned here. I see no problem in this. Our legal stuff is too
tame to help them with some of their bug problems and we can't send
the stuff they need. They have less food but while they go without
food we can feel satisfied that the food they are not eating is more
chemical free than if they were eating better.
Additionally, I think sweat shops give working opportunities
to those having none. We can get indignant over their conditions but
that is only because we are crossing our culture with theirs...this is
not a good idea.
I know of several American sweat shops in Monterrey that were
closed because of the flak received by American owners by indignant
Americans...who are rich in the eyes of the guys trying to make a peso
in Monterrey.
I guess the Americans were happy that the shops closed and the
workers were no longer "exploited" -- they were no longer working
either...and there is no welfare in Mexico like there is here.
>>>I don't know if you're familiar with
>>>Larrivee guitars, Ken, but they make some of the best factory built
>>>instruments around, selling at a price well below many of their
>>>competitors. They are very much in the business of building guitars
>>>and doing a pretty good job. Of course you may disagree with me too.
>>><g>
>>
>> Nope...I do not disagree about the product. It is a good one
>>and for the sound vs. dollar, it seems a good deal...at least from the
>>ones I've played...I wish the position marks were bigger and more
>>obvious.
>>
>> Ken Cashion, who believes a good guitar is a good
>>guitar...regardless of where it is made or by whom. It matters not a
>>whit to him if it is built by socially aware people or in a sweat
>>shop.
>
>Really? Well, that clears things up........
Yep. :o)
Ken Cashion
Ken Cashion
Fred, those markers are really pretty under lights (to the
audience). What are they? I'm impressed with them and I think they
would look great in clusters on the patent head.
By the way, the position marks on the Plastic Mac start out
about 1/2" in diameter and there are position marks on the back of the
neck that are 1/2" in diameter and recessed about .010". They can be
felt with the fingers as the chords are changed. I like that. I
think that is a good idea.
Does anybody else have position marks on the neck that can be
felt with the hand during chord changes?
Mario Maccaferri had a lot of good ideas.
I might buy the plans to his Selmer guitars just to see what
the "inner chamber" was.
Ken Cashion, who got off the subject but kept it on guitars.
Ken Cashion
He sounded like a profit-motivated business man. Was his
stock traded on the open market? I wouldn't have minded having some
of it if he was a good business man trying to make money for the
owners of the company...which is most likely why people were buy the
stock...any stock.
His guitars didn't have to sound good...just make money for
the owners. Market manure correctly and people will buy it.
Ken Cashion
JD
<ple...@nospam.us> wrote in message
news:ac7l6v8d6f6vgu0tq...@4ax.com...
> "JD" <jdb...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Position markers are for beginners who spend their time in an awkward
> >position looking at the fingerboard for a clue where to place their
fingers.
> >
> >JD (No inlay at all on *my* Larrivee)
>
> I must be a beginner, by that definition. I just gave Jamie
> Kinscherff my 7-string baritone to enlarge the side dots. I
> find I use the side dots quite a bit more than I thought I
> would. There is no inlay on the fretting surface.
Side markers don't count, you can see those without contorting your body
into an unnatural position. Big position changes on a fretless would be a
trainwreck without them (for me, anyway).
JD
Hojo2x
First of all, it's the right thing to do. It isn't like people suddenly cease
to be human when they develop an illegal drug problem, any more than they cease
to be human if they develop a problem with alcohol.
Sceondly, it IS good business. Investing time and effort into the training of
skilled employees translates into a lot of money when calculated in a time to
benefit ratio. To just piss that money away by simply firing someone who
develops a drug jones is irresponsible, and a very poor use of resources. A
seasoned, experienced employee is worth a lot more to the company, even if a
drug problem arises, than a new hire who has to be watched and guided every
second of the day.
And, last I heard, Larrivée Guitars was a family-owned firm. Stockowners and a
board might take the same short-sighted, callous approach towards trained
employees that's been advocated in this thread.
Fortunately, Jean Larrivée doesn't have to listen to anyone like that, and can
do what his heart and his business instincts dictate.
Wade Hampton Miller
Chugiak, Alaska
Fred Shrimer
That's why I use masking tape numbers as position markers....
Fred
ple...@nospam.us
>That's why I use masking tape numbers as position markers....
>
>Fred
Geez, don't Gibsons come with masking tape? OK, OK, I like
Gibsons a lot. A LOT. Well, the good ones...
ple...@nospam.us
For those of us who have taught guitar, position markers are
important for our students so they can see where our fingers
are. I can say "6th fret" but they look at the markers first.
That's OK with me. They, of course, look only at their own side
dots. :-) Any more, I always use a guitar with big position
markers when I teach.
Al "Tex" Sato
Steve Hawkins
>
> For those of us who have taught guitar, position markers are
> important for our students so they can see where our fingers
> are. I can say "6th fret" but they look at the markers first.
> That's OK with me. They, of course, look only at their own side
> dots. :-) Any more, I always use a guitar with big position
> markers when I teach.
>
> Al "Tex" Sato
I wonder if anyone has ever ordered a guitar with the fret numbers inlayed
on the fingerboard. Warning! Ascii drawing ahead!
---------
| 1 |
---------
| |
---------
| 3 |
---------
| |
---------
| 5 |
---------
and so on.
Steve Hawkins
JD
<ple...@nospam.us> wrote in message
news:sljl6v80vuh7e9bhk...@4ax.com...
My first lessons were with a classical teacher. I guess I never missed them
because I didn't know any better.
JD
HL
> For those of us who have taught guitar, position markers are
> important for our students so they can see where our fingers
> are. I can say "6th fret" but they look at the markers first.
> That's OK with me. They, of course, look only at their own side
> dots. :-) Any more, I always use a guitar with big position
> markers when I teach.
one of my students uses a BC Rich (electric guitar) that has no fret markers
on the fingerboard, just the side dots... a PITA for me...
John Swee
T-Bone
"Steve Hawkins" <res0...@verizon.net> wrote ;
> I wonder if anyone has ever ordered a guitar with the fret numbers inlayed
> on the fingerboard.
I can't remember what brand, but I've seen one. The numbers were done in
Roman numerals.
Bob Dorgan
Amostagain
When I was at Fred Welker's he was showing me an archtop that was not totally
completed that had these maskingtaped scribbled numbers by some frets. Mel deal
had done it, Mel is a freaking great jazz player in town.
Ken Cashion
wrote:
This is really good to hear. I was looking for a better
guitar and one that would challenge me but I couldn't find hardly any
in the catalogs that didn't have position markers.
Maybe if I took my guitar to a good luthier, s/he could remove
them.
I wonder how many of us here prefer guitars with position
marks and occasionally look at them?
I bet there are several.
Al Saito, do you ever look at your position marks?
Ken Cashion, needing all the help he can get.
Ken Cashion
Well, Al, I guess I should have read all the responses before
I ask if you used your position marks. (Sorry about the "i" in
"Saito.")
Ken Cashion
Ken Cashion
wrote:
JD, I can see the ones on the fretboard really well...because
I am already leaning way over to see where the strings are so I will
know where to put my fingers.
Actually, I have added the side markers to my guitars...even
the el cheapo Mexican ones. It doesn't take much. I drill the holes
by hand and I have used most everything to fill the holes.
My favorite is to buy some cheap plastic handled water color
brushes (different colors) and then I have a little taper to the
thing.
I start by drilling for the smallest mark, poke the end of the
paint brush into the hole and see where to mark it to cut it. I cut
it and wipe a couple of swipes of wet-or-dry "sand"paper over the cut
end and tap it in the hole...then I see what size I should drill for
the next larger one.
Ken Cashion, a hunt-and-grabber
Ken Cashion
wrote:
>ple...@nospam.us wrote in news:sljl6v80vuh7e9bhk...@4ax.com:
Steve, that's funny!
I know that a lot of beginners get really enthused when they
decide to buy their first guitar and they don't mind spending the
money...perhaps they should do what you suggest but have the numbers
in abalone or something...and for those who will be playing jazz can
use Roman numerals and those playing much older music can use an Old
English font.
You may be on to something here!
Or we could just do the position marks like on my beautiful
DeArmond. They used pretty adhesive paper and in time, these can
loosen up and be removed.
Ken Cashion
Jerry Dallal
: Maybe if I took my guitar to a good luthier, s/he could remove
: them.
Or add them. Position markers at every position is the same as no
position markers at all.
Ken Cashion
I think we've had our say on this subject but I was wondering
that if he wanted to put out a greater number of his quality guitars,
if ready-capital might contribute to that, and having said this, if he
had an IPO, I wonder if he would have to change his way of doing
business?
I really don't know the answer to this.
I wonder if there would be something in writing up front, or
if the changes in the way he wants to work with his employees would be
changed later by the desires of the owners to make more money from
their investments.
I assume that his way of doing business would be changed by
all the "drug free workplace" policies in so many businesses.
I just don't know if this would be a requirement for an IPO.
Interesting thought, though.
Ken Cashion, not a bad person -- just an orderly one.
Jerry Dallal
: Jean Larrivee has helped his employees with drug problems for several
reasons.
: First of all, it's the right thing to do.
I want to say , "'Nuff said!", but there's a coda. Helping doesn't mean
enabling and it doesn't mean letting them run roughshod over you. It
means helping. While I can't speak for JL's operation, helping often
means help arranging treatment and covering it under sickleave policy. It
also often means that once you're in the program, you're fired with no
special recourse if you show up on the job under the influence.
ple...@nospam.us
>
><ple...@nospam.us> wrote in message
>news:sljl6v80vuh7e9bhk...@4ax.com...
>> For those of us who have taught guitar, position markers are
>> important for our students so they can see where our fingers
>> are. I can say "6th fret" but they look at the markers first.
>> That's OK with me. They, of course, look only at their own side
>> dots. :-) Any more, I always use a guitar with big position
>> markers when I teach.
>>
>> Al "Tex" Sato
>>
>
>My first lessons were with a classical teacher. I guess I never missed them
>because I didn't know any better.
>
>JD
It is most likely better to learn that way if you are going to
play classical guitar. It is probably better even if you're
going to play another style, but it's far from clear. I started
on a violin.
Al Sato
Bob N
To be happy and successful as a public company, a business needs to have a
clear view of how it will achieve a market valuation of $400 million or more
within about a 5-year time frame. The entire guitar industry combined
couldn't do this. The NASDAQ and pink sheets are littered with small
companies that went public and saw their values decline due to lack of
research coverage and minimal trading liquidity, which takes them entirely
off the radar screens of institutional investors. Meanwhile, it costs
around $250K per year and climbing just to handle the insurance,
administrative and legal expenses of being public such as filing with the
SEC, complying with the recent Sarbanes-Oxley Act, etc.
IMNSHO, the musical instruments industry, excluding the lowest-end, plywood
junk, is perfect for family ownership or partnerships where the owners are
active in the business. As long as one does not overextend one's capital or
fixed cost base, it's a relatively stable business in which one can create a
clearly defined niche that is differentiated from competitors. A good,
long-term, dividend-producing business. It can be deeply cyclical in tough
economic times, so an aggressive, debt-oriented capital structure would
probably be an unacceptable risk.
That said, with the right kind of employee base, corporate culture and
management practices in place, an ESOP employee-ownership plan could be an
interesting structure for certain purposes. But going public is not a
viable alternative.
Bob,
JD
<ple...@nospam.us> wrote in message
news:s4om6vkvuulnucn4p...@4ax.com...
important on a 14 fret. Side markers become proportionately more necessary
as the number of clear frets increases, assuming you play above the 5th
fret. I still find no functional use for markers on the face of the
fingerboard.
JD
Ken Cashion
I know you said "nuff said" but I wanted to add yet another
view of this.
I was hired in Chicago to an interesting little company where
the boss was the owner and he worked in the place with all the
employees...he had a sales guy out on the road most of the time and I
never met him.
The boss was a tough-talking, cussing, cigar smoker who would
stand too close to you when he chewed you out and would get so frantic
he would be spitting on you with every comment and all this while
poking you in the chest with the spit-soaked, swabby end of his
chewed-on cigar stub.
I was fresh from the oil-patch in South Texas and I thought
all places were like this place and it was a good place for a young
person (straight out of high school) to go to work. I had worked with
roughnecks and guys running guns across the border, but this Chicago
gangster scared the living Hell out of me!
(There is a point to this.)
The employees consisted of a flaming homosexual who thought me
cute; an over-compensating homosexual who was a beautiful weightlifter
with a gorgeous body, steel-gray short hair and gray eyes; a dwarf
(and Jew); a couple of fellows who were obviously mentally slow; and a
couple of others that looked like something from a horror movie.
After I worked there a week, I wondered why he hired me. I
was the only normal person there. Then one day while eating our
lunches together in the lunch room, he said, (I will leave out the
profanity and gesturing) that he hated to see people act like big
shots when they weren't and there were good people looking for work
and didn't deserve to have manure thrown in their faces.
Then he added, "...well...people like you."
I thought he was talking about the weirdoes...no, he really
meant I was included in with them.
What was so strange about me?
I learned later that he was paying me full hourly wages though
I was working part time and going to school.
(Part time workers most places were being paid less an hour
for the same work as the full time workers and he thought this was
ripping off the part time workers...like me.)
This tough guy (underneath) was a sweetheart who hired those
who would be taken advantage of and he treated them properly...we all
loved him...and said so behind his back. We would never tell him
because we all thought he would take us out in the alley and beat the
living hell out of us.
He did me many small favors -- making sure I was not aware
when they happened.
Ken Cashion
Bob Alman
> He did me many small favors -- making sure I was not aware
> when they happened.
He sounds like a real nice asshole.
--
Bob Alman
Fred Shrimer
I have two like that now, Steve. It's important that the numbers are
rotated 90 deg from the orientations you show them though.
I screwed up with the first one -- turns out it was built as a lefty,
then redone for righty playing. But they left all the number inlays
facing the wrong way (for a lefty, of course). (Never buy off eBay...)
The second one is one I ordered. It has "LED" position markers, so when
I put on a capo, I can reset the position again, based upon the capo
position. Cool, huh?
When I visited Bob Alman last summer, he liked *that* one so much he
tried to swap it for some Martin guitar he had laying around.
Fred
ple...@nospam.us
>I don't miss the side markers on a 12 fret but they get to be a little more
>important on a 14 fret. Side markers become proportionately more necessary
>as the number of clear frets increases, assuming you play above the 5th
>fret. I still find no functional use for markers on the face of the
>fingerboard.
>
>JD
>
My 7-string baritone has 16 frets clear. The nut feels very far
away (probably because it is). The side markers are a crutch
that I seem to need. Clearly they are not necessary for all
people. I don't think the ones on the fretting surface of the
fingerboard are at all easy to see for the player, especially if
you play standing up, but they do make sense for someone looking
at the player.
Al
rtmca
> >> find I use the side dots quite a bit more than I thought I
> >> would. >
Hey Tex--
Ironically the Larrivee classical I own is the only classical I know
of (in the high end range) that has a position marker. Only one on
the side of the fingerboard at the 7th fret, but it does help me
orient. Jean is not niggardly
(a word with Scandinavian roots having nothing to do with near
homonyms) when it comes to position markers, only tasteful.
R.
rtmca
> because I didn't know any better.
>
> JD
Ironically, the Larrivee L-35 Classical has a position marker (7th
fret, on side of fingerboard). Nice touch. Enough to orient. R.
JD
<ple...@nospam.us> wrote in message
news:471n6vgm9ti15jm16...@4ax.com...
Until you apply a capo. I never gave it much thought until last weekend when
someone at a party mentioned that I was much easier to follow while capoed
on the 4th fret with misleading position markers.
JD
Hojo2x
>: Jean Larrivee has helped his employees with drug problems for several
>reasons.
>
>: First of all, it's the right thing to do.
Jerry Dallal wrote:
>I want to say , "'Nuff said!", but there's a coda. Helping doesn't mean
>enabling and it doesn't mean letting them run roughshod over you. It >means
helping.
Exactly. And I didn't mean to create the impression that the Larrivées are
running some sort of work release halfway house for heroin addicts, either.
The impression I got - and that's all it is, since I haven't discussed this
with Jean himself, so what I have is hearsay - is that valued employees who
screw up are given a chance.
That's it.
Jean is first and foremost a businessman. He's not going to give someone
endless chances. But he's not going to just throw people away, either. Not
the first time around.
ple...@nospam.us
Hi, Robert.
I never understood why there weren't position markers on a
classical, at least on the side. It seems to me that the usual
arguments ("you don't need them" or "you will hinder your
ability to know the fretboard") don't really hold water. I'm
glad at least one classical builder has realized that it can
only help to have at least some indication of position.
Eventually, if you play enough on the same instrument, you will
know the fretboard. I want position markers on my baritone
because it has a 28" scale and two extra frets on the neck and I
switch between it and several other guitars with different
characteristics. Interestingly, I don't use the side dots on my
mandolin at all. I can get all over the fretboard in any key
without them.
Al Sato
Corbeau
I've seen quite a few with a 7th position marker on the side. I
thought it was standard practice while additoinal side dots were the
exceptional option. The latest is on my own Woodley White.
My previous instrument, a Traphagen also had a 7th pos marker standard
as did my Joshia DeJonge and my instructors instrument, a recent
Byers. When talking to Dake Traphagen about this a few years back, he
said some of the nylon-string jazz players he's built for get
additional side markers but most just use dabs of LiquidPaper.
Maybe it's a NorteAmericano thang...
Best,
Thomas
Ken Cashion
I was lucky to be working for him. I made more money when I
did. He just didn't want to show his feelings and didn't know how to
hid it otherwise. Also, he didn't want to make others think that they
needed that much help...like they couldn't get by without help.
Today, we convince people they deserve it and they get
indignant if they don't get it.
By the way, he was a match for Leonard Shelton, tough-guy
movie star.
Ken Cashion
Joe McNamara
movie star.<<<
I bet you mean Sheldon Leonard, tough guy character actor and later, writer,
director and big-time tee vee producer. Really an extrordinary career - here's
a good bio w/credits:
http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/L/htmlL/leonardshel/leonardshel.htm
Joe McNamara
foldedpath
news:3e6aa1cb...@news.datasync.com:
> This is really good to hear. I was looking for a better
> guitar and one that would challenge me but I couldn't find hardly any
> in the catalogs that didn't have position markers.
> Maybe if I took my guitar to a good luthier, s/he could remove
> them.
> I wonder how many of us here prefer guitars with position
> marks and occasionally look at them?
> I bet there are several.
> Al Saito, do you ever look at your position marks?
All my main guitars (other than reso's) have no fretboard markers, only
little dots on the side of the neck. I like the look of a clean,
uncluttered ebony fretboard. Two guitars came that way from the factory
(Gibson Pat Martino electric, Santa Cruz FS). The lack of fretboard
markers was one of the things that caught my eye about those particular
models, then I found other things to like about them. My last two custom
orders (a Holst and a Leach) will have clean fretboards, and only side
markers.
Since we've been talking about archtops recently... I REALLY like the
way the Holst turned out, with a combination of no fretboard markers,
sunburst, and subdued trim. Here's a pic:
http://www.pacinfo.com/~sholst/k250mb.htm
Isn't that purty, with no fretboard markers or other clutter on the
fingerboard? Sometimes I see an archtop with a really whacked-out inlay
design that turns me on, but basically I'm conservative and like low-key
designs like this.
I can live without side dots on a 12-fret-to-the-body design like a
classical gutiar. But anything more than 12 frets at the body join, and
I like having some side dots for orientation. Otherwise I get lost.
I also have a Franken-Fender fretless bass with inlaid maple fret lines,
AND position markers on the fretboard, along with side dots on the neck.
I need all the help I can get, since I don't play this instrument enough
to nail the notes without fret lines. Side dots alone wouldn't be
enough.
--
Mike Barrs
Sleepy Fingers Jones
>
>It is most likely better to learn that way if you are going to
>play classical guitar. It is probably better even if you're
>going to play another style, but it's far from clear. I started
>on a violin.
>
>Al Sato
So did I. I look at where my fingers are, but never at the fret
markers. I'm thinking about the shape of the scale/riff I am playing.
Pete
John Sorell
"foldedpath" <mba...@NOSPAM.nightviewer.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93398ED12D144mb...@216.168.3.44...
Yes, that is purty! I feel the same way I prefer a clean fretboard.
John
Robert L. Abramowitz
> > I wonder if anyone has ever ordered a guitar with the fret numbers inlayed
> > on the fingerboard.
I wonder in turn (and this is not meant as a joke) if anyone has ever
had braille markers put on a fingerboard so as to help teach a blind
person to play.
Bob A.
Bob Alman
> I wonder in turn (and this is not meant as a joke) if anyone has ever
> had braille markers put on a fingerboard so as to help teach a blind
> person to play.
> Bob A.
Shouldn't you be working.....
--
Bob A.
Fred Shrimer
He IS working.
Wonders, that is.
Fred
Ken Cashion
I continue to be impressed with the caliber of knowledge on
this newsgroup. I have reached a point where I feel I can ask
anything and someone will come up with a good answer. It helps if the
question concerns guitars but it doesn't have to.
Thanks a bunch.
I guess it would be viable to vigorously market the private
company to a few unknowing folks and then through an IPO get rid of
the whole company...and then go in competition with the new public
company with the proceeds from the sales.
I knew of two guys with small companies but big ideas who did
this. One made a killing; the other got killed.
Ken Cashion
Ken Cashion
Joe, yes, I did mean Sheldon Leonard. Thanks.
I even have him as the typical, talking out of the side of his
mouth tough guy in a strange Pinky Tomlin movie. I have two of Tomlin
and he is another that had a perfectly nice voice and played an
acoustical arch top really well.
Ken Cashion
ple...@nospam.us
wrote:
>I'm thinking about the shape of the scale/riff I am playing.
>
>Pete
That's a new one for me in the past year. I've started doing
exactly that when I'm doing single-note stuff. I think this is
the basic principle of CAGED, but I could be wrong. When I
arrange for fingerstyle I see the notes of the key I'm in and
where the harmonies are that are reachable from where I
currently am. I guess that's not so different when you describe
it verbally but it's an entirely different head space for me.
Al
ple...@nospam.us
See my response above. I guess I don't care if there are
position markers - as long as the side ones are visible. Having
one side marker is a huge step better than having none, although
you can learn a guitar well enough not to need any. I like them
when I'm playing in keys I'm not used to.
Al Sato
rtmca
> position markers - as long as the side ones are visible. Having
> one side marker is a huge step better than having none, although
> you can learn a guitar well enough not to need any. I like them
> when I'm playing in keys I'm not used to.
>
> Al Sato
Having formerly played a classical (like almost all classicals)
without position markers, there is always a propensity to use a bit of
extra brain capacity to ensure that the jump, say, from 2nd position
to ninth position isn't indventantly to eight position by accident. A
single little dot on the neck at 7 allows one to verify visually what
the fingers should already know. I functioned w/o a marker for years
but I've noticed how friendly that single little dot feels. As
someone mentioned this seems to be occuring on N. Amer handmade
classicals but, of courese, not Spanish made ones. There is always
the possibility of a drop of "white out."
R.