Shopping for a resonator

[Chris]

I started this discussion on the Acoustic Guitar Forum as well; but I'm
wondering what folks here might have to say.

I took an intro to slide guitar class at the second week of PSGW this
year, and absolutely loved it, and now I want to get a resonator.

I need to (and plan to) get out and play as many as I can; but I know
from having visited area stores in the past that there won't be many
options locally. And one thing I've run into when looking at makers'
websites etc. is that pretty much all resonators that anyone is making
seem to be 12-fret guitars with no cutout, making it awfully hard to work
the slide above the 12th fret. I've seen only a few exceptions to this
online; and I don't have much hope that I'm going to see those specific
models when I go visiting shops to try out guitars. How hard is it to
work the slide above the 12th fret (particularly on the first string
only, while fretting/plucking other strings) on 12-fret resonators with
no cutout?

Anyway, does anyone have any advice (general or specific) regarding
shopping for a resonator? Or should I think of it like shopping for any
other guitar? I'm a little concerned about my inexperience with them
affecting my ability to quickly judge a setup (action high enough to make
slide use easy; but low enough to make it still possible to fret with my
fingers, since I'm not looking for a lap steel).

[Steve Hawkins]

Chris <cmet...@speakeasy.no.spam.please.net> wrote in
news:VJGdnQ-whrjB5afN...@megapath.net:

Check out Rayco. http://www.rayco.ca/indexmain.html

I've played Tony Weber's and it's outstanding. I prefer the tone of a
wood body over the metal ones. The metal ones are too harsh for my
taste.

Steve Hawkins

[Tony Done]

First off, what style do you want to play? Slide and resos aren't
synonymous, and if you want to play in the style of, say, Ry Cooder or
Leo Kottke you would IMO be better off with a flattop. I have four each
of resos and flattops, but I rarely play the three biscuit (national)
style resos, because that punchy banjo-like sound is a fairly
specialised tonal niche. OTOH, the tricone is quite versatile and I
often have it in standard tuning for fingerpicking rather than slide.

Spider (dobro) types are mostly use lap style for bluegrass and country
music.

All decent resos have two deficiencies in common, they are weak in the
bass and they sound awful when strummed. What they should have is loud
well defined high registers.

How much do you want to spend? A lot of wood-body cheapos a few years
ago were as dead as doornails, but at least some have improved greatly.
Cheap metal resos have always been OK tonally, but that is in the nature
of the materials.

Neck angle is an issue on all price ranges that I have looked at, and
the two modern National Resophonics I have played (my Estralita and a
14-fret Style 0) couldn't be set as low as I would like them without
resetting the neck.

You might want to look at these:

> http://www.republicguitars.com/


They have Continental cones, which is good.



I recently bought a Miniolian, and the tone is oustanding, regardless of
price. However, I did have to do a complete set up (fret level and
crown, nut, saddle, neck relief) to get it the way I like it.



--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456
http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[Chris]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 06:26:09 +1000, Tony Done wrote

> On 27/08/2012 5:26 AM, Chris wrote:
>>
>> Anyway, does anyone have any advice (general or specific) regarding
>> shopping for a resonator? Or should I think of it like shopping for any
>> other guitar? I'm a little concerned about my inexperience with them
>> affecting my ability to quickly judge a setup (action high enough to
>> make slide use easy; but low enough to make it still possible to fret
>> with my fingers, since I'm not looking for a lap steel).
>>
>>
> First off, what style do you want to play? Slide and resos aren't
> synonymous, and if you want to play in the style of, say, Ry Cooder or
> Leo Kottke you would IMO be better off with a flattop. I have four each
> of resos and flattops, but I rarely play the three biscuit (national)
> style resos, because that punchy banjo-like sound is a fairly
> specialised tonal niche. OTOH, the tricone is quite versatile and I
> often have it in standard tuning for fingerpicking rather than slide.

Honestly, I don't think I know yet. In the slide intro class I took, we
did Robert Johnson-type stuff, and I do like to play blues. But we also
played "Sleepwalk," which was fun; and using my acoustic for that, I
didn't have enough sustain to make it sound good. That's the main thing
that has pulled me toward a resonator, rather than just getting a
standard flat-top acoustic with the action set higher: the sustain.
Well, that and the fact that the resonators in the class sounded cool
playing slide.

> Spider (dobro) types are mostly use lap style for bluegrass and country
> music.

I'd thought the main differentiator between resonators played like
regular guitars and those played lap style was the neck; is that not true?

> Neck angle is an issue on all price ranges that I have looked at, and
> the two modern National Resophonics I have played (my Estralita and a
> 14-fret Style 0) couldn't be set as low as I would like them without
> resetting the neck.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I don't think you're talking
about the action; but then I'm not sure what you do mean.

[Les Cargill]

Chris wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 06:26:09 +1000, Tony Done wrote
>> On 27/08/2012 5:26 AM, Chris wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyway, does anyone have any advice (general or specific) regarding
>>> shopping for a resonator? Or should I think of it like shopping for any
>>> other guitar? I'm a little concerned about my inexperience with them
>>> affecting my ability to quickly judge a setup (action high enough to
>>> make slide use easy; but low enough to make it still possible to fret
>>> with my fingers, since I'm not looking for a lap steel).
>>>
>>>
>> First off, what style do you want to play? Slide and resos aren't
>> synonymous, and if you want to play in the style of, say, Ry Cooder or
>> Leo Kottke you would IMO be better off with a flattop. I have four each
>> of resos and flattops, but I rarely play the three biscuit (national)
>> style resos, because that punchy banjo-like sound is a fairly
>> specialised tonal niche. OTOH, the tricone is quite versatile and I
>> often have it in standard tuning for fingerpicking rather than slide.
>
> Honestly, I don't think I know yet. In the slide intro class I took, we
> did Robert Johnson-type stuff, and I do like to play blues. But we also
> played "Sleepwalk," which was fun; and using my acoustic for that, I
> didn't have enough sustain to make it sound good.

Really? It should be fine. What were you using for a slide?

> That's the main thing
> that has pulled me toward a resonator, rather than just getting a
> standard flat-top acoustic with the action set higher: the sustain.
> Well, that and the fact that the resonators in the class sounded cool
> playing slide.
>

Resonators just sound brassier.

>
>> Spider (dobro) types are mostly use lap style for bluegrass and country
>> music.
>
> I'd thought the main differentiator between resonators played like
> regular guitars and those played lap style was the neck; is that not true?
>
>

There's a variety of variations. You can't necessarily comfortably fret
squarenecks.

>> Neck angle is an issue on all price ranges that I have looked at, and
>> the two modern National Resophonics I have played (my Estralita and a
>> 14-fret Style 0) couldn't be set as low as I would like them without
>> resetting the neck.
>
> Can you elaborate on what you mean by this? I don't think you're talking
> about the action; but then I'm not sure what you do mean.
>
>

--
Les Cargill

[Tony Done]

Biscuit resos have less sustain than good flattops, but they are so loud
in the high registers that you hear it more prominently. OTOH, they
sound dull in the low ranges.

Spiders come in both round and square necks, but their usage has mostly
devolved to the squareneck lap steel variety. Of course, there is
nothing wrong with playing a (roundneck) dobro in the spanish position,
it is just a bit uncommon. You can play a roundneck lap style, but they
aren't designed for the very high string tensions of GBDgbd tuning and
the mechanical disadvantage of a high nut, so you might end up with
structural damage.

Low neck angle isn't confined to resos, it can also be an issue in
flattops. It relates to the action, because of the coverplate and
tailpiece, there is a limit to how low you can get the saddle (hence
strings) before the strings touch the coverplate and/or there is still
sufficient break angle over the saddle to keep the cone pressed down on
its soundwell shelf enough not to rattle. However, FWIW, popular wisdom
(including mine) suggests that the saddle break angle should be as low
as practicable with biscuit cones and a bit greater than that on dobros.

On the subject of cheapos, cones and soundwells, the cone is often not
well seated, so it rattles and/or loses tone. This is sometimes fixed by
added felt padding, which is also a tone killer. I have spent literally
hours gently bending a cone so that it seats properly in the soundwell.
This isn't difficult, just an exercise in patience. Another common but
nasty practice on cheap dobros is to screw the cone down to its seating
to stop it rattling; I've also fixed these so that they are just held by
downward string pressure. This often also entails bending or grinding
the spider so all its feet are on the same plane.

Timber quality of the soundwell is another issue in cheapos, and I have
fixed soft soundwells by impregnating them with superglue. It takes
about half a dozen tubes, but does help the tone. I've also put posts
between the soundwell and the back of the guitar, which stiffens
resonating system and reduces acoustic damping. My Miniolian didn't need
any of this, just a lot standard set up work.

[Tony Done]

I would take a chance on the Republic cutaway tricone - but being
prepared to do a certain amount of fixing up. My tricone has a very deep
cutaway so I can reach the 24th fret. Useful if trying to emulate
elctric style slide.

Here's two examples of what I see as the different niches for resos and
flattops, both by Fred McDowell:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54GNI2K3-ec

Good for reso.

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtlVSedpIRU

Good for flattop.

[Tony Weber]

On 8/27/2012 5:37 AM, Chris wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 06:26:09 +1000, Tony Done wrote
>> On 27/08/2012 5:26 AM, Chris wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyway, does anyone have any advice (general or specific) regarding
>>> shopping for a resonator? Or should I think of it like shopping for any
>>> other guitar? I'm a little concerned about my inexperience with them
>>> affecting my ability to quickly judge a setup (action high enough to
>>> make slide use easy; but low enough to make it still possible to fret
>>> with my fingers, since I'm not looking for a lap steel).
>>>
>>>
>> First off, what style do you want to play? Slide and resos aren't
>> synonymous, and if you want to play in the style of, say, Ry Cooder or
>> Leo Kottke you would IMO be better off with a flattop. I have four each
>> of resos and flattops, but I rarely play the three biscuit (national)
>> style resos, because that punchy banjo-like sound is a fairly
>> specialised tonal niche. OTOH, the tricone is quite versatile and I
>> often have it in standard tuning for fingerpicking rather than slide.
>
> Honestly, I don't think I know yet. In the slide intro class I took, we
> did Robert Johnson-type stuff, and I do like to play blues. But we also
> played "Sleepwalk," which was fun; and using my acoustic for that, I
> didn't have enough sustain to make it sound good. That's the main thing
> that has pulled me toward a resonator, rather than just getting a
> standard flat-top acoustic with the action set higher: the sustain.
> Well, that and the fact that the resonators in the class sounded cool
> playing slide.

Chris, there is not just a single type of "resonator." All resonators
have at least one metal cone that vibrates and acts as an amplifer.
Tricones have three. The first resonators, made by the Dopyera Brothers
company National, had three cones with a brace on top for the saddle.
The Brothers sold National, along with their patents, and started Dobro,
and came up with the spider, which has a single cone with the bowl
facing up towards the top, and with a spiderweb overit holding the
saddle. It was louder than a Tricone. National countered with a
"biscuit" bridge, with the cone facing down from the top of the guitar,
and the saddle on top of a little round widget that looks like a
biscuit, and which Dopyera designed before leaving National.

National started with wooden bodies, but quickly switched to metal ones.
Dobro is best known for wooden bodied resonators. General useage is
that a "National" style is metal, and probably a Tricone or Biscuit
single cone. "Dobro" is usually a wooden body and spider.

To my ear Nationals are brasher, and sometimes can be harsh, but I like
a good one. Dobros are sweeter. My Rayco that Hawkins mentioned
earlier is a Dobro-style body with a round-neck.

>
>
>> Spider (dobro) types are mostly use lap style for bluegrass and country
>> music.
>
> I'd thought the main differentiator between resonators played like
> regular guitars and those played lap style was the neck; is that not true?

That is true. Resonator (and other guitars) designed for playing
lap-style are usually referred to as "square-necks." For playing
regular, Spanish, style "round necks." But there are no hard and fast
rules as to what body and cone can be used, although as Tony said
Dobro-style square-necks have found favor with County and bluegrass
players, while a lot of Blues and Rock players like Nationals. Which
you wind up liking depends on you. There are no wrong answers.

Time to do some research, my son.

TW

[JD]

Speaking of Rayco, I've been talking to them about
a wider necked (1 13/16th) 12 fret reso with a
cutaway. It looks like the "essential three" tumor
has metastasized.

[rayboyce]

"Tony Weber" <mycro...@SOCKSspeakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:eOydndU_S95Y1aHN...@megapath.net...

Tony described it well. I'd add that if budget is a concern, Rayco
Resonators are some of the more expensive production ones.

I'm no expert but I've been told by those who play them alot, the biscuits
are dirtier, more of the original bluesy sound. I'd agree, they certainly
have a grittier tone to my ear. I have a friend who has a cheapo version
with replaced/upgraded biscuit from a well known maker. I have compared it
direct, to my Dobro (mine is wood with Spider cone, economical series, circa
from one of the last (2) years this line was made in US). I had the a-b
test done while I was standing in front, with a well known pro slide player
playing them both, back and forth.

I found the "grittier" definition to hold true. Mine was cleaner than the
biscuit. But I've also briefly played Tony's Rayco, and IME what you get
when you step "up" is a boatload of volume and "throw" of the sound. Tony's
Rayco is 2x at least in volume of mine, and it is amplified very cleanly by
it's chamber.

From several players, a reputable instrument in lower price range are the
Paul Beard Gold Tones, spec'd and setup in US, made in Asia with Beard
mechanical parts. They are available in cutaway, but you have to custom
order them, and wait basically for them to be built, received, and setup.

http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/BGT5R.htm

I also have heard great stuff about the Mike Dowling spec'd National El
Trovador reissue, but again that's up in price range. Finally, for
Tri-cone, I've heard they're more consistently balanced than the others,
across the spectrum.

Again I'm no expert, but I've talked at length with those who should know.

Theres a good YouTube a-b by Mike, that might help you "visualize" some of
the differences in design/tone, between biscuit and tri-cone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH6jyCXMVfY

Hope this helps, YMMV
~ray

[Chris]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 07:55:21 -0500, Les Cargill wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>>
>> Honestly, I don't think I know yet. In the slide intro class I took,
>> we did Robert Johnson-type stuff, and I do like to play blues. But we
>> also played "Sleepwalk," which was fun; and using my acoustic for that,
>> I didn't have enough sustain to make it sound good.
>
> Really? It should be fine. What were you using for a slide?

Brass.

[Chris]

On Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:27:03 -0700, Tony Weber wrote:
>
> Chris, there is not just a single type of "resonator." All resonators
> have at least one metal cone that vibrates and acts as an amplifer.
> Tricones have three. The first resonators, made by the Dopyera Brothers
> company National, had three cones with a brace on top for the saddle.
> The Brothers sold National, along with their patents, and started Dobro,
> and came up with the spider, which has a single cone with the bowl
> facing up towards the top, and with a spiderweb overit holding the
> saddle. It was louder than a Tricone. National countered with a
> "biscuit" bridge, with the cone facing down from the top of the guitar,
> and the saddle on top of a little round widget that looks like a
> biscuit, and which Dopyera designed before leaving National.
>
> National started with wooden bodies, but quickly switched to metal ones.
> Dobro is best known for wooden bodied resonators. General useage is
> that a "National" style is metal, and probably a Tricone or Biscuit
> single cone. "Dobro" is usually a wooden body and spider.
>
> To my ear Nationals are brasher, and sometimes can be harsh, but I like
> a good one. Dobros are sweeter. My Rayco that Hawkins mentioned
> earlier is a Dobro-style body with a round-neck.

Hi. I'd read this stuff in a couple of places as well as here and sought
out youtube videos to try and make sense of it, but didn't really get it
until I came across these two websites today:

http://www.littlebrotherblues.com/Gear/ResoHunt/index.html
http://www.acousticfingerstyle.com/ResonatorsExplained.htm

The audio demonstration on the first was particularly nice. But I expect
that just like flat-top acoustics, statements about sound are going to be
general in nature: there may be differences between single-cone biscuits
and tricones that are fairly typical; but there'll still be a spread in
how they sound. So I just need to get out and play guitars -- which I'm
looking forward to, but dreading the gas I'm going to have to chew up.
From calling around/looking online, there are probably ~6-7 places within
an hour and a half drive that have resonators; but rarely more than one
or two, and they're all in different directions from here. :)

> Time to do some research, my son.

Hence some of my questions here -- for which I'm really, really grateful
for all the responses I've received. Thank you.

[Tony Weber]

Its not a guitar. Its a Resonator.

TW

Say hello to Mark and Jason.

[Mike Brown]

In article <k1gics$igh$1...@speranza.aioe.org>,

Tony Done <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote:

> On the subject of cheapos, cones and soundwells, the cone is often not
> well seated, so it rattles and/or loses tone. This is sometimes fixed by
> added felt padding, which is also a tone killer. I have spent literally
> hours gently bending a cone so that it seats properly in the soundwell.

I did this on my Chinese "Nashville" tricone, and it sounded much better.

MJRB

[Tony Done]

On a tricone? Ooooh, three times the fun.