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More daft Gibson tricks
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Kevin Hall
Apr 9, 2013, 12:10:30 AM4/9/13
to
Last year when I encountered a 2-piece Brazillian rosewood bridgeplate in a
'68 Country-Western Gibson I thought perhaps it was a one-off, as so many
odd details with 60s Gibsons seem to be. Wrong. Last week I bought a '69
B-45 12 string and today I started trying to turn it into a musical
instrument. Got the narrow adjustable bridge with all it's hardware and
the tailpiece off in order to do the pin bridge conversion which brings
these things back to life, then checked the bridgeplate. Yup; another
2-piece Braz. plate, varying in thickness from .168" to .269". It's
diamond-shaped, clearly original, and the joint between the two pieces is
just about where the back edge of the bridge falls.
I've pulled some funny stuff out of old Gibsons, but how on earth could
anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of steel string flat-tops think
that this massive two piece plate would be a good thing?
The up side of this deal is that the plate came out without putting up too
much of a fight.
By '69 the company had decided the traditional A-section bracing was
inadequate and replaced it with considerably larger, straight sided braces
with rounded tops. Because it's a 12 the usual X brace has two sets of
lower legs with the second pair running parallel to the 'real' legs, about
5/8" away from them. As found this was a truly dreadful sounding rig,
unresponsive, quiet and decidedly unmusical. This isn't uncommon in '69
Gibs, but I'm gambling that the bridge and plate conversion, coupled with
some work on the lower legs of the X and the two tone bars will bring it to
life.
KH
'68 Country-Western Gibson I thought perhaps it was a one-off, as so many
odd details with 60s Gibsons seem to be. Wrong. Last week I bought a '69
B-45 12 string and today I started trying to turn it into a musical
instrument. Got the narrow adjustable bridge with all it's hardware and
the tailpiece off in order to do the pin bridge conversion which brings
these things back to life, then checked the bridgeplate. Yup; another
2-piece Braz. plate, varying in thickness from .168" to .269". It's
diamond-shaped, clearly original, and the joint between the two pieces is
just about where the back edge of the bridge falls.
I've pulled some funny stuff out of old Gibsons, but how on earth could
anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of steel string flat-tops think
that this massive two piece plate would be a good thing?
The up side of this deal is that the plate came out without putting up too
much of a fight.
By '69 the company had decided the traditional A-section bracing was
inadequate and replaced it with considerably larger, straight sided braces
with rounded tops. Because it's a 12 the usual X brace has two sets of
lower legs with the second pair running parallel to the 'real' legs, about
5/8" away from them. As found this was a truly dreadful sounding rig,
unresponsive, quiet and decidedly unmusical. This isn't uncommon in '69
Gibs, but I'm gambling that the bridge and plate conversion, coupled with
some work on the lower legs of the X and the two tone bars will bring it to
life.
KH
Nick Odell
Apr 9, 2013, 10:07:51 AM4/9/13
to
you'd have nothing to moan about.
Nick
Kevin Hall
Apr 9, 2013, 11:10:09 AM4/9/13
to
"Nick Odell" <ni...@themusicworkshop.plus.com> wrote in message
news:1488m8l3jumiait1p...@4ax.com...
You may havc a point. Not meant as a moan actually, just an observation.
It always mystifies me why Gibson came up with so many decent designs then
'improved' them until they became completely unworkable. ;-)
With the price of vintage Martins placing them out of the reach of most mere
mortals more pickers seem to be looking to salvage the Gibsons from the
more-or-less transitional period of the mid to late 60s. Those are still
available fairly cheaply over here and in spite of their many and varied
shortcomings can be made into interesting and serviceable instruments with a
bit of patience and work.
In spite of being an old Martin man through and through, I love the sound of
the early lightly built Gibs., but they were so fragile that few survive
unscathed.
I'm used to seeing the huge hardwood plywood bridgeplates they used for
quite a while, but these idiotic 2-piece jobs of wildly varying thickness
are a bit of a surprise. I may well have encountered them years ago when
we were repairing Gibsons by the flocks, but I probably assumed they were
the work of less than scrupulous repairmen at the time rather than factory
issued. Now I've had two recent identical examples which are clearly
original factory parts. Amazing.
Trying to work out an accurate chronology of various Gibson design changes
is like trying to pin jelly to a wall. Good fun though.
All the best,
KH
Benoit Meulle-Stef
Apr 11, 2013, 3:43:59 AM4/11/13
to
Kevin:
From the top of my head some "nice" surprises from Gibson:
-A transversal bar in a J200 with an adjustable damper to prevent the top from vibration too much (sound killer???)
-Another J200 natural from the 1990's with a 12mm thick bridge and 5mm bone sticking out (apparently neck angle adjustment is not known in Gibson factory)
-A Dove custom with a 3.4mm top, 3.2mm back and 2.8mm sides! Actually they are the measures I found in almost ALL the new Gibson I have measured recently!)
-And finally a last J200 whowas falling appart for no reason... ALL the glue joins where collapsing...
Take care
Benoit
PS: Next we will talk about Martin plastic guitars for 700 euro and there incapability to glue the bridge on the right place...
From the top of my head some "nice" surprises from Gibson:
-A transversal bar in a J200 with an adjustable damper to prevent the top from vibration too much (sound killer???)
-Another J200 natural from the 1990's with a 12mm thick bridge and 5mm bone sticking out (apparently neck angle adjustment is not known in Gibson factory)
-A Dove custom with a 3.4mm top, 3.2mm back and 2.8mm sides! Actually they are the measures I found in almost ALL the new Gibson I have measured recently!)
-And finally a last J200 whowas falling appart for no reason... ALL the glue joins where collapsing...
Take care
Benoit
PS: Next we will talk about Martin plastic guitars for 700 euro and there incapability to glue the bridge on the right place...
Tony Done
Apr 11, 2013, 5:23:36 AM4/11/13
to
been dogs of the most mongrel kind, but the slope Ds often aren't bad. I
wonder if they are more lightly built.
--
Tony Done
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456
http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/
Kevin Hall
Apr 11, 2013, 2:01:41 PM4/11/13
to
"Benoit Meulle-Stef" <b...@bmsguitars.com> wrote in message
news:9c9d6737-c59e-449a...@googlegroups.com...
strings. Truly amazing.
I once had to re-top an early '60s Hummingbird and when I unscrewed the
strap button from the end block both rims popped off, having never been
glued properly.
Unlike the '68 B-45 top I have hanging on the wall from a retop a few years
back, this '69 I'm wrestling with at the moment has heavier braces plus an
extra tone bar, so 3 in place of the 2 in the previous years' model. I
can't actually recall ever finding two Gibsons the same model from the same
era which had identical features. Keeps a guy from getting bored, if
nothing else.
I just don't have anything to do with Gib acoustics made after '69 if I can
help it, so have avoided having to mess with the current crop.
KH
Benoit Meulle-Stef
Apr 11, 2013, 2:57:31 PM4/11/13
to
I have to say for there defense that my 1908 Style U harp guitar is quite ok... ;-)
Benoit
Benoit
Kevin Hall
Apr 11, 2013, 5:44:11 PM4/11/13
to
news:3cc22382-f4e7-469e...@googlegroups.com...
countenanced by any sane person. Same deal with Martin and those appalling
formica things. Who other than a nutter would make a mortise and tenon
neck joint in a plywood block, hang it on with one bolt then Super Glue the
whole thing? Amazing. Worst of both worlds.
KH
KH
>I have to say for there defense that my 1908 Style U harp guitar is quite
>ok... ;-)
>
> Benoit
They made lots of good stuff, just did a bunch of things that wouldn't be
>ok... ;-)
>
> Benoit
countenanced by any sane person. Same deal with Martin and those appalling
formica things. Who other than a nutter would make a mortise and tenon
neck joint in a plywood block, hang it on with one bolt then Super Glue the
whole thing? Amazing. Worst of both worlds.
KH
KH
Benoit Meulle-Stef
Apr 12, 2013, 9:09:35 AM4/12/13
to
My best Martin "doh!" what a small guitar with the intonation -1.5mm!!! So not even at the harmonic but 1.5mm too short!
Tony Done
Apr 12, 2013, 2:58:10 PM4/12/13
to
On 12/04/2013 11:09 PM, Benoit Meulle-Stef wrote:
> My best Martin "doh!" what a small guitar with the intonation -1.5mm!!! So not even at the harmonic but 1.5mm too short!
>
Ask Kevin about the incredible shrinking measuring stick.
> My best Martin "doh!" what a small guitar with the intonation -1.5mm!!! So not even at the harmonic but 1.5mm too short!
>
Kevin Hall
Apr 12, 2013, 7:17:07 PM4/12/13
to
"Tony Done" <tony...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:kk9lg9$7so$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
KH
Benoit Meulle-Stef
Apr 13, 2013, 4:23:06 AM4/13/13
to
That's a way to consider this problem... The blue pill? ;-)
By the way I'm finishing to restore Russian guitar that a French Luthier converted poorly on a fake manouche guitar... Oh dear, oh dear...
Benoit
By the way I'm finishing to restore Russian guitar that a French Luthier converted poorly on a fake manouche guitar... Oh dear, oh dear...
Benoit
Tony Done
Apr 13, 2013, 3:36:53 PM4/13/13
to
CFM III who needed a little blue pill
Kevin Hall
Apr 13, 2013, 6:15:23 PM4/13/13
to
news:kkcc4h$2lf$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
I have an old chum who tells me he only buys Viagra to stop himself rolling
out of bed.
KH
out of bed.
KH
Tony Done
Apr 13, 2013, 6:26:34 PM4/13/13
to
But what about the story of the shrinking stick. I'm sure I read this
from a reliable source, within the limits that nothing I can recall is
that reliable these days. -
Martin had been using a simple wooden stick gauge for for many years to
locate the bridge on the body. However, the stick had shrunk over time,
and nobody had noticed that the bridge attachment was getting further
away from its correct location. Not that it would matter to bluegrassers
and folkies anyway.
Kevin Hall
Apr 14, 2013, 10:04:41 AM4/14/13
to
news:kkcm2r$u5i$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> I've heard those stories as well, but haven't seen any evidence of 'em.
> I have seen examples in which the intonation was so far out (
> 'outonation'?) it appeared that the bridge setter had used the guage for
> the short scale when setting long scale bridges. Had a concert uke once
> on which the saddle was over 3/16" out of whack, and that was from the
> early '50s.
KH
> I have seen examples in which the intonation was so far out (
> 'outonation'?) it appeared that the bridge setter had used the guage for
> the short scale when setting long scale bridges. Had a concert uke once
> on which the saddle was over 3/16" out of whack, and that was from the
> early '50s.
KH
Tony Done
Apr 14, 2013, 5:35:36 PM4/14/13
to
use a simple gauge, where is the measurement from? The neck end of the
body? The nut?
Benoit Meulle-Stef
Apr 23, 2013, 1:49:53 PM4/23/13
to
Talking about Gibson, a brand new J100 mahogany sides and back... 3.5mm top! 2.5mm sides and 3.8mm back!!! :-) what a waist of tonewood...
Benoît
Benoît
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