Glue for guitars, ukes, mandolins, etc
Luthier
I have a question regarding glue for guitar repair and also making new ones.
I have taken up violin-making as a hobby and I have also been given
repair-jobs on these instruments. Lately i have had some inquiries on
guitar-repair and I have started to look for glue for guitar-repair. For
violins and violas, hide glue is the only choice.
What glue should I use? Tite-bond is the answer I get when asking around, so
I surfed in on a suitable website (www.titebond.com/) and found a jungle! A
product mix so fantastic that I go lost. I now give the question to you
folks: Advise me, please!
So, my questions are: What glue is suitable for the woodwork on guitar
instruments? What glue should I use for the edge decoration and inlays,
which can be plastic or any other material suitable for the decoration?
Another question: What is used for finish? Oil varnish like on violins or
polyurethane stuff?
Please advise.
Stu
Kevin Hall
sold by Luthiers Mercantile ( very good) and others like the 2002GF sold by
Lee Valley Tools. The main thing is you want a glue which sets hard and
brittle, with some slight gap-filling ability ( especially for repairwork),
and minimal visibility in joints.
Plastic, ABS, Boltaron etc. bindings are usually applied with solvent
based glues which are again available from Stew Mac or Luthiers' Mercantile.
For old style nitrate-based ivoroid or tortoise bindings it is better to use
either good quality epoxies like West System, System Three etc., or
cyanoacrylates. The conventional solvent adhesives tend to cause shrinkage
in the nitrate bindings over time, resulting in them coming loose at the
waist, opening gaps etc.
Fingerboard inlays etc. can be set using suitably coloured fillers in either
epoxy or cyanoacrylate, the latter being faster.
Finishes on guitars vary from French Polish ( mostly old 'uns or higher
grade classicals and flamencos) through nitrocellulose lacquer, water-based
poly to U.V. cured poly in many factory situations now. Of course
application techniques and touch-up procedures vary considerably according
to the product used.
KH
"Luthier" <sture....@telia.com> wrote in message
news:yTSIm.12690$U5.1...@newsb.telia.net...
Cyberserf
Notwithstanding Kevin's excellent advice...here are my 2 cents...
If you want to do a proper job of it, you might want to become
acquainted with Hot Hide Glue (HHG). It is the traditional glue that
has been used in (wood) musical instruments for a great number of
centuries...it's been used in fine furniture making (with evidence
still existing in Egyptology Museums) for millenia. In any event, it's
a bit of a bear to work with (it's working temperature is quite high
(about 120F)) so heating parts prior to assembly is sometimes a good
thing, but the bother is really worth it. Highly recommended.
Titebond Original (not TBII) is a decent substitute as is Lee Valley
GF 2000...both are PVA glues (Poly Vinyl Acetates (aka AR: Aliphatic
Resins)) with higher than usual solid content making them less prone
to creep under pressure, but neither of them will cure as hard and as
tonally transparent as Hot Hide Glue. HHG has a creep (once cured) of
effectively zero...it doesn't cure in striations, it dries out and
crystallizes with the crystal structures shrinking as the dry out thus
providing a self clamping feature missing from regular modern wood
glues...While brittle, it is very strong. The bear in it is that it
cannot be disturbed once it starts to congeal (it'll get cloudy when
this process starts)...at that point, any movement will destroy the
molecular structure of the crystals and greatly weaken the bond...as I
said, it is fussy, but really worth investigating if you are into
traditional techniques.
As for a finish....most of the violins I've worked on have had a
French Polish finish (again, a very traditional technique). This is
basically several coats of shellac (blond or light orange lac flakes
dissolved in denatured alcohol) rubbed on with a cotton pad
(minutae)...extra virgin olive oil has been traditionally used as a
facilitator....again, while a chore to initially learn, it is a
superior finish that is highly repairable (scratches can be rubbed
out), long lasting (Strad. used it), tonally transparent (not heavy
or muting). Like HHG, I highly recommend learning how to do a nice
French Polish.
FWIW, CS
David Hajicek
"Cyberserf" <cybr...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:9660c18e-4e68-4de0...@n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
CS
____
Good advice from both posters. Kevin's advice will get you to an acceptable
result sooner. Things like HHG and French Polish require a higher level of
skill than you are likely to attain on the first attempt. We have had long
discussions about which is better and why. Needless to say, any method has
a weakness as well as a strength.
Dave Hajicek
Ron
I agree with the folks who suggested hide glue but I wouldn't suggest
Titebond's hide glue. I used it on occasion to glue two boards
together to form a wide panel; the panel held up strongly for about
two to three days, then it fell apart at the glue line! Unless the
Titebond hide glue is completely fresh-- and even then-- it's a tricky
glue to use. While traditional hide glues can be messier and more
troublesome to mix up, they have several advantages that the other
glues don't have and are worth using.
A second suggestion is the slow-setting glue available from Garrett
Wade. This glue has a full half-hour setting time which allows one to
make adjustments before the glue sets too fast. Once dry, this glue is
as rock solid as Titebond glues. :-)
Ron
Stu
Thank you all for excellent advice. I will take on the recommendations,
starting with the materials being readily available in "my" part of the
world (which is Scandinavia). I also note that oldfasioned methods are
mentioned as fully competitive with modern techniques, even though they
require certain skill and practicing of a beginner before using these
techniques on precious instruments.
As i wrote i my original inquiry, I have taken up violin.making as a hobby,
which I did some years ago. As everybody know, nothing but HHG must be used
putting a violin ( or viola or cello) together. So, I am familiar with the
use of HHG, wetting the stuff for 24 hours, heating in waterbath, preheating
the workpiece etc. I still find the short "open" time of the glue being the
trickiest part of the process.
I am also familiar with French polishing though I am not an expert. I learnt
about french polishing from two sources, one of which was this forum (where
I got some theoretical information and a short video demonstration, could
have been Al Carruth) and the other was a workshop that renovated my own old
(1932) upright piano a few years ago. The two brothers in the workshop gave
me a few lessons, put together a box of suitable equipment and sent me off
practising.
I guess that I will have to try the modern methods as well and judge for
myself what will suit me the best.
You have been very helpful. Any further hint on the subject will be
appreciated.
/Stu
"Luthier" <sture....@telia.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:yTSIm.12690$U5.1...@newsb.telia.net...
Kevin Hall
of hide glue in his note I didn't feel the need to refer to it. Since it
has been brought up, it would be prudent to advise against the temptation
to use the commonly available liquid hide glue for instrument work.
KH
"Cyberserf" <cybr...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
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David Hajicek
Thanks, I missed that.
For repairs, HHG may not be the best choice depending on the repair, same
for bindings and such. Bindings, are typically glued on with basically
airplane glue. But as Kevin said, this may cause plastic bindings to shrink
later. But so will NC lacquer. Super glue is great for bindings and
perflings. Seal the guitar wood with lacquer first, so the SG doesn't wick
into the end grain, making it dark in that area. LMII white glue is also
good for wood perfling and binding. It is also good for construction (easy
to clean up) as is TiteBond I.
Some makers swear by HHG for guitar construction. The thought is that there
are less acoustic losses with this glue. HHG is easier to repair. For that
reason, it would be a good idea to use it to attach the neck (if a glued
dovetail) so re-setting is easier. But HHG is also brittle and if really
dried out (desert dry) or the guitar is dropped, it may crack and fail.
Guitar players are sometimes hard on their instruments (at least I am).
Finish is typically not oil or PU varnish, though they can be made to work.
The oil tends to have more damping than other finishes (losing the advantage
of using HHG). Same, depending on the varnish used and how thick it is.
This is different than on violins, where some damping is desirable. We want
a fairly hard, low damping finish material. Thin as practical on the top
and a bit heavier on the body and neck for protection.
The traditional finish is NC lacquer (should be instrument grade or it will
crack). But most manufacturers us a UV cure polyester finish. Not
practical or desirable for a small maker. Some waterborne finishes are
getting pretty good these days. I use Target Ultima Spray Lacquer, it seems
to be the best of the bunch, though they have other types that can be made
to work as can the waterborne lacquers from LMII or Stu-Mac. I recommend a
prime coat of NC lac or shellac first.
Dave Hajicek
"Kevin Hall" <timbe...@webhart.net> wrote in message
news:O5ednZ-ajfgnD2jX...@posted.vianet...
David Hajicek
I am an advocate for FP of tops. But I don't see it buying anything on the
body or neck. A more durable finish is desirable there IMHO. Sweat, body
contact and such can leave marks in the FP body finish as do belt buckles,
etc. I'm sure classical players are more careful, but SS players expect the
guitar to take the abuse.
I have learned to do FP without the normal hardening oils. Basically
straight shellac, though a small amount of an evaporating oil (oderless
mineral spirits is my favorite or high quality paraffin oil) can be used for
lubrication. This is not incorporated into the shellac and requires no
spiriting-off or extra hardening time for the oil. Build is faster. But
sanding and polishing is needed to get a mirror finish.
Dave Hajicek
"Stu" <sture....@telia.com> wrote in message
news:tVcJm.12700$U5.1...@newsb.telia.net...
Jim McGill
formulation so it would set up faster. An improvement in most settings
(mostly what I use) but if you need longer working time or higher
strength, get Titebond Extend Wood Glue (both Woodcraft and Rockler
stock it). It's a stronger version of the old Titebond I formula, but it
does take 24 hours to get full strength. I was having trouble with the
new formula cold flowing in bent laminated drum rims and the Extend Glue
solved the problem totally.
As a side note, the Titebond folks are incredibly helpful. I posted my
problem to the web site and almost immediately got a response from a
senior engineer with several suggestions. After a bit of back and forth
we settled on the Extend Glue (he even looked up what local stores they
had recently shipped it to) and it worked great. If you have a problem
with any of their glues or a glue problem that needs ideas, I highly
recommend contacting them
Jim
Kevin Hall
me they are now using Titebond in place of the white aliphatic resin glue
they'd used for years. During my time with the co. ( mid to late 70s) they
had glue made up for them in 500 gallon batches, testing each batch as it
came in. That particular glue seemed very close to the product being sold
by Luthiers Mercantile now.
KH
"Jim McGill" <mcgill...@BOGUShalcyon.com> wrote in message
news:hd4vt5$27v$1...@nwnexus-news.nwnexus.com...
Steve
> In a recent discussion with folks at the Martin plant in Nazareth they told
> me they are now using Titebond in place of the white aliphatic resin glue
> they'd used for years. During my time with the co. ( mid to late 70s) they
> had glue made up for them in 500 gallon batches, testing each batch as it
> came in. That particular glue seemed very close to the product being sold
> by Luthiers Mercantile now.
>
> KH
Ken;
Did they say why they transitioned to Titebond from "the white stuff?"
--Steve in Roseville