Titebond Original vs. Titebond II vs. Hide Glue
Jorma U.
Titebond Original vs. Titebond II vs. Hide Glue
Which of these 3 glues would be the best for assembling a laminated
neck... same goes for gluing on maple cap on a Les Paul type solid
body guitar... Isn't hide glue only for gluing on necks to bodies?
CyberSerf
bit of practice and you need to coordinate a dry fit before jumping in.
You'd almost have to heat your pieces before laminating...once the glue
gels, you can't move the parts or you'll break the molecular bond. On the
plus side, Hide Glue does not require as much clamping pressure as aliphatic
resin...it brings the parts closer together as it dries...self-clamping
death grip...Headstock, neck, bracing, top back, bridge plate, bridge I've
used it for just about every type of repair you can think of. However, I
think for lamination you may have more luck with Titebond (not Titebond
II...it has a lower shear strength and doesn't dry quite as hard as the
original Titebond). I'm sure someone who has actually laminated a neck can
correct me if I'm way off base ;-)
My .02, CS
--
---
The opinions, comments, and advice offered by me, are mine alone.
As such, they carry as much weight as a feather in a snow storm.
Gear Page at: http://www3.sympatico.ca/cybrserf/Gear.htm
"Jorma U." <ksf...@skdfsdh.net> wrote in message
news:bcpb5...@enews3.newsguy.com...
Mattia Valente
> However, I
> think for lamination you may have more luck with Titebond (not Titebond
> II...it has a lower shear strength and doesn't dry quite as hard as the
> original Titebond). I'm sure someone who has actually laminated a neck can
> correct me if I'm way off base ;-)
I use Titebond (I, NOT II) exclusively on the electrics I make,
including for neck lamination. Works like a charm.
Mattia
Mike Dotson
weather and while hide (new glues really aren't any 'better', just easier to
use) is an excellent all-purpose glue it's fast set time would make things like
clamping neck laminations and a top cap a real race.
Chris Johnson
CyberSerf wrote:
> No Hide glue can be used throughout, but it isn't simple to use. It takes a
> bit of practice and you need to coordinate a dry fit before jumping in.
> You'd almost have to heat your pieces before laminating...once the glue
> gels, you can't move the parts or you'll break the molecular bond. On the
> plus side, Hide Glue does not require as much clamping pressure as aliphatic
> resin...it brings the parts closer together as it dries...self-clamping
> death grip...Headstock, neck, bracing, top back, bridge plate, bridge I've
> used it for just about every type of repair you can think of. However, I
> think for lamination you may have more luck with Titebond (not Titebond
> II...it has a lower shear strength and doesn't dry quite as hard as the
> original Titebond). I'm sure someone who has actually laminated a neck can
> correct me if I'm way off base ;-)
>
> My .02, CS
>
>
The disadvantage of hide glue is that the joint has to be kept within a
certain range of moisture content. Too much moisture and the joint
fails, and too little moisture causes the same thing. It's a lot more
difficult to get conditions too wet unless you leave the instrument out
in the rain, though.
This is why your better violin cases include hygrometers and
humidifiers. It's not so much for the wood's sake, (thought that is
certainly a plus) but it's to keep the moisture content in the hide
glue correct, thus ensuring the joint remains strong.
As for TB vs. TBII, I have and use both. The alleged slight
susceptibility to creep with TBII is so slight that the effect
can be virtually ignored. I've done tests by gluing blocks of
maple together with the stuff and then later applying large
shear forces through the joint plane by screwing heavy weights to
the face of one piece and letting it hang for several months.
No evidence of creep was ever seen across the finely joined
faces running across the two pieces of glued wood.
I use TBII for neck laminations and also for any other task
of gluing parts together that must be absolutely permanent,
including split repairs.
I use TB for all other tasks, unless the instrument is a violin
family instrument, in which case hide glue is the only thing to
use in almost all cases.
CJ
Warren May
I would vote for Titebond Original. Make sure the surfaces mate
pretty well and don't lay down TOO much glue, just coat the surfaces.
Good luck,
Warren
"Jorma U." <ksf...@skdfsdh.net> wrote in message news:<bcpb5...@enews3.newsguy.com>...
Mike Dotson
certain range of moisture content. Too much moisture and the joint fails, and
too little moisture causes the same thing.>>
This is why your better violin cases include hygrometers and
humidifiers. It's not so much for the wood's sake, (thought that is
certainly a plus) but it's to keep the moisture content in the hide
glue correct, thus ensuring the joint remains strong.>>
Oh come ON! Jeez Chris about the time I decide you're OK you come up with BS
like this. Guess that's why those 5,000 year old hide glue joints they found in
the pyramids were still holding up, cuz they left little humidifiers in there.
Mike
Still_Slanted
"Mike Dotson" <ter...@aol.comNoSchpam> wrote in message
news:20030618115006...@mb-m17.aol.com...
I wouldn't think moisture would be much of a problem in the Egyptian DESERT,
would you? I remember reading some where, back in those dim, dark days
beyond recall, that microbial action was the biggest enemy of hide glues.
Molds, bacteria, and such eat the stuff. That's one of the reasons I took to
building with aliphatic<sp> glues down here in the swamps. I will add that I
use hide glues for repair work an violin family stuff and in restorations of
instruments originally constructed with it and I will attest to seeing lots
of mold damage to hide glue joints over the years.
Mike too :-)
Chris Johnson
If it's BS, then a LOT of professionals in the violin world are flat out
wrong about what they know.
A dead dry hide glue joint crystallizes and, upon any sufficient
impact, will turn to dust. You can verify this for yourself,
if you care to do the experiment.
Those 5,000 year old hide glue joints may be holding together, but
if they were shocked while in the dead dry condition, they'd have
failed instantly. But if the artifacts that they're holding together
were moved into a humidity controlled environment (say 50 percent RH),
which is likely to be the case in any modern museum, then the joints
would have increased in strength fairly rapidly as the air humidity
would have moisturized those joints slightly.
This is all FACT. It can be verified.
CJ
Chris Johnson
Warren May wrote:
> Chris will vote for Titebond II :)
Already covered. TB II for SOME applications, TB for others.
Neck laminations get TBII as do any joints or repairs that are
intended to be very permanent.
CJ
Mike Dotson
that it would crystylize hide glue, or conditions SO wet that it would cause it
to pop apart wouldn't already have so seriously damaged the wood itself that it
would even matter?
Tell me Chris, what this "certain range of moisture content" that keeps hide
glue joints from failing actually is.
I will agree that hide can fail under certain adverse conditions (so will TB
and TB II) but you act like an instrument that isn't cared for like a newborn
will pop all it's joints at the first change in weather.
BTW most of the joints in violin faminly instruments are glued with a somewhat
weak hide glue solution since they are designed to be taken apart for repair.
Mike too: Microbes/mold can be a problem with hide, but again were talking some
pretty bad conditions.
Chris Johnson
Mike Dotson wrote:
> Does ANYBODY really think that an instrument left to endure conditions SO dry
> that it would crystylize hide glue, or conditions SO wet that it would cause it
> to pop apart wouldn't already have so seriously damaged the wood itself that it
> would even matter?
> Tell me Chris, what this "certain range of moisture content" that keeps hide
> glue joints from failing actually is.
> I will agree that hide can fail under certain adverse conditions (so will TB
> and TB II) but you act like an instrument that isn't cared for like a newborn
> will pop all it's joints at the first change in weather.
>
>
Refer to this:
http://deller.com/newpage8.htm
Specifically, refer to the paragraph titled "How long can you store it?"
I found numerous references to corroborating evidence in a very brief
Google search.
No, I do NOT "act like an instrument that isn't cared for like a newborn
will pop all it's joints at the first change in weather".
Far from it. I'm just telling you the truth about hide glue, which is
that if the instrument it's in is allowed to dry out too much (which
would only be a problem under desert conditions, generally speaking)
then the joints will become brittle unless rehydrated.
The very reason why we use alcohol on hide glue joints when
disassembling the joint is because alcohol is hygroscopic (absorbs
water) and it draws the remaining water out of the hide glue, thereby
embrittling it and allowing it to be easily broken.
CJ
Mike Dotson
moisture content of the glue joint will lower making the glue brittle."
You might want to read it Chris. If you leave an instrument at 10% humidity
for an 'extended' amount of time the cracked top, back and sides and shrunken
fingerboard will be the big worry. (and yes I know the orignal poster was
talking electrics)
You're first post was vauge and made it sound as if hide glue was a poor risk,
and that simply isn't true.
CyberSerf
I'm not convinced of any moisture need or particular moisture
requirements for hide glue instuments...it has been the de facto standard
for many hundreds of years...surely the wood will crack and dry out before
the joint fails due to your "crystalization" problem...in fact, it has been
my understanding that Hot Hide glue (HHG) holds best without moisture...it
cures by loosing moisture which shrinks its individual molecular cells
(bringing the pieces closer together) rather than the striation type of
curing exhibited by aliphatic resins (which leaves gaps between the
"strings" of bonded glue). You're quite right that too much moisture will
destroy a hide glue joint, but at those levels, an aliphatic resin joint is
likewise in danger. Heat over 140F is another enemy of HHG (again, as with
aliphatic resin)...which is why steam is used to disassemble hide
joints....and aliphatic resin joints. IMHO, the fact that aliphatic resin is
currently the glue of choice for luthier is due to these complimentary
properties with HHG...and the added benefit that the set time is much
longer, so that it is easier to work with than HHG. I don't know about the
scientific evidence that you point to but I've read many studies and
opinions that would disagree with you ...notably, see:
http://www.player-care.com/hideglue.html and,
http://atos.stirlingprop.com/kbase/HOTHIDEGLUE.htm on the net,
Unfortunately, most are in publications not currently available on the
net...can't think of the name right now..."Acoustic Instrument Digest" or
some such had a great 1:1 comparison along several dimensions with AR, HHG
and PVA). In any event, in my experience, hide glue is not only a tried and
true traditional glue, it is the best for instruments...the way I understand
it, it's "crystalization" (the very property you feel is a weakness)
transfers energy directly rather than placing a buffer between the two
pieces...blah, blah, blah...
I certainly wouldn't council someone to try making hide glue from granules
and trying to laminate anything on their first try, but once you get used to
the stuff and get used to preheating the parts and dry fitting, etc... it
really is very workable and, again, IMHO, second to none for instruments. As
I said, I don't know about laminating a neck...seems to me, given that we
don't want this joint to ever come apart, any sufficiently non-viscuous
epoxy should also be a contender.
BTW, The humidification of instruments is typically maintained in the
40-50%rh in order to protect the wood, not the glue joints. The joints are
stressed by the expansion and contraction of wood...but frankly, you are
MUCH more likely to get a crack say, on a top behind a bridge, than a hide
glue separation of the sides from the back from lack of moisture...most
often (and this is also true of aliphatic resin glues), the joint is
*stronger* than the actual wood. Of course this is from a limited set of
data (under 1,000 instruments, all in under 30% humidity...bloody Canadian
Winters!!!!). More dangerous to the joints are heat and humidity in that
order...leaving a guitar with HHG or AR joint in a car on a hot summer day
is frankly, the most common reason why I have to glue bridges back on at
twice the usual rate during the months of August and September...but hey,
it's a living!
Hope all these comments are useful to someone, CS
--
---
The opinions, comments, and advice offered by me, are mine alone.
As such, they carry as much weight as a feather in a snow storm.
Gear Page at: http://www3.sympatico.ca/cybrserf/Gear.htm
"Chris Johnson" <spam...@bite.my.shiny.metal.ass> wrote in message
news:3EF078AC...@bite.my.shiny.metal.ass...
CyberSerf
IMHO, TBII is no more permanent than the original TB...in fact, I would
argue, less so...in that it doesn't set as quick nor as hard and tends to
creep more under tension (or at least, the published evidence points that
way)...for permanent, you need to investigate some good quality 2 part
epoxies....now that's permanent!
Respectfully, CS
--
---
The opinions, comments, and advice offered by me, are mine alone.
As such, they carry as much weight as a feather in a snow storm.
Gear Page at: http://www3.sympatico.ca/cybrserf/Gear.htm
"Chris Johnson" <spam...@bite.my.shiny.metal.ass> wrote in message
news:3EF0A13E...@bite.my.shiny.metal.ass...
CyberSerf
Ahh...see I don't use alcohol to loosen a HHG joint, I use heat and
moisture...BTW, the "How long can you store it for" is an answer that
relates to unused gelatin in the refridgerator...and while this article
states that under 10% RH will make the glue brittle, that is before heating
and use, the fact is, an HHG joints are so bloody tight that it would take
alot to get the joint *itself* exposed to such a low humidity
condition...remember, the glue is hydroscopic, which means it will take
moisture from the wood around it before it reaches this critical
level...frankly, and again, I maintain that most tonewood, under tension,
will fail before a joint using HHG....reading on, we see that, unlike PVA
and AR glues, HHG will re-activate upon re-hydration...that would be a
feature, not a bug...frankly, while I can understand a luthier not wanting
to use HHG because of convenience (AR gives you most of the HHG benefits
without the short set time and messy heating required), I don't think fear
of 10%Rh for a length of time sufficient to affect a laminated joint is a
valid reason for discounting it as a choice...just my opinion, but (sorry)
your evidence has not changed it (although the discussion is perhaps
interesting to someone).
Cheers, CS
--
---
The opinions, comments, and advice offered by me, are mine alone.
As such, they carry as much weight as a feather in a snow storm.
Gear Page at: http://www3.sympatico.ca/cybrserf/Gear.htm
"Chris Johnson" <spam...@bite.my.shiny.metal.ass> wrote in message
news:3EF0B431...@bite.my.shiny.metal.ass...
miker
Chris Johnson
CyberSerf wrote:
> Chris,
>
> Ahh...see I don't use alcohol to loosen a HHG joint, I use heat and
> moisture...BTW, the "How long can you store it for" is an answer that
> relates to unused gelatin in the refridgerator...and while this article
> states that under 10% RH will make the glue brittle, that is before heating
> and use, the fact is, an HHG joints are so bloody tight that it would take
> alot to get the joint *itself* exposed to such a low humidity
> condition...remember, the glue is hydroscopic, which means it will take
> moisture from the wood around it before it reaches this critical
> level...frankly, and again, I maintain that most tonewood, under tension,
> will fail before a joint using HHG....reading on, we see that, unlike PVA
> and AR glues, HHG will re-activate upon re-hydration...that would be a
> feature, not a bug...frankly, while I can understand a luthier not wanting
> to use HHG because of convenience (AR gives you most of the HHG benefits
> without the short set time and messy heating required), I don't think fear
> of 10%Rh for a length of time sufficient to affect a laminated joint is a
> valid reason for discounting it as a choice...just my opinion, but (sorry)
> your evidence has not changed it (although the discussion is perhaps
> interesting to someone).
>
> Cheers, CS
>
>
I only have one question for you:
How many necks on cellos and double basses have you had to reglue lately
due to failed hide glue joints? Or at least, how many such repairs
have you participated in even if you weren't the project leader?
For me, it's FIVE. (three basses, two cellos, and one of the basses is
worth about 40K and is about 160 years old. Four of these jobs were
neck joint failures, two of which were COMPLETE failures of the neck
glue joint, and the fifth had a separating top and numerous top cracks
that we fixed.)
Yes, Virginia, hide glue joints do fail, and sometimes they shear
perfectly along the glue line in response to a sudden shock.
Truth is, I don't think we're arguing over anything really worth
arguing about because we're both right...just maybe we're arguing
at different angles.
CJ
CyberSerf
I didn't think we were arguing at all. I thought we were having a pedantic
discussion about minutea. ;-) At worst, we can agree to disagree...you
build 'em your way, and I'll repair them mine. And yes, quite right I have
seen glue joints fail (although I tend to defer repairs on larger stringed
instruments elsewhere, my shop doesn't have the space to accomodate them in
any number :-(, so I'll have to say, recently, zero to your "one" question).
Yet, even on the smaller instruments (guitars, mandolins, dulcimers, violin,
etc...with which I am daily involved), I have seen joints fail. I have seen
them fail for just about every glue you can think of (PVA, AR, HHG...heck,
even epoxy). Yet, In the vast majority of the cases I've seen, the failure
was due to excessive heat (which by the way also dries out the glue and, in
the case of HHG, causes it to crystalize...but, it, at least, can be
re-hydrated). The remaining fraction can be attributed to either bad glue
composition or faulty assembly...in other words, the glue was either mixed
too thin (or past its prime), or the joint was moved after the glue cooled
but hadn't yet set, or the surfaces were not adequately prepared or a number
of other reasons. Glue joints fail, no question, but is the remote
possibility that a *protracted lack of humidity* will damage a HHG joint
sufficient reason to damn it as a viable medium. IMHO, it is not. IMHO, such
abuse will cause much more damage to the wood than to the joint. I'm sure
there are a few legitimate reasons why AR is currently preferred over
HHG...in fact, I stated one myself... convenience... AR has most of the
benefits and is much easier to use and prepare...it is a good glue...no
doubt your preferred choice is a good one. But, IMHO, so is HHG, and
arguments of brittleness due to lack of humidity just don't cut it for me.
Tell me, how many of those five instruments you mention can you attribute
the failure solely to protracted lack of humidity below 10%? You mention
shearing due to sudden shock...IMHO, better the joint should fail than the
neck or headstock shatter, but, in any event, I've seen the same results
with joints held by AR...so what's your point? Surely you aren't trying to
impress me with your vast experience...the beautiful instruments you build
have a better chance of doing that...and while I respect your opinion, I'm
afraid my years in the repair and restoration business (mostly starving)
have jaded me somewhat and set me in my ways...some call me traditional
(I've even heard Ludite bandied about)...so I'll need real evidence to
convince me that properly applied HHG is somehow inferior to AR.
Chris, I agree that the discussion is moot and I have no intention of
ramming my opinion down anyones throat. Do what you like. I respond this
last time only to say that I have not been convinced by either your
documented or anecdotal evidence that HHG is flawed due to its "moisture
limitations". I have read the article you submitted and, I'm happy to say,
it did not contradict any of my experience or prior knowledge...I wonder if
you've bothered with the links I sent you?? I find it amusing that you feel
it necessary to put down the alternative when stating your
preference...particularly when it would be sufficient to say, "I prefer AR
because it is easier to use"...no need to slag the opposition...Oh well, as
I said earlier...lets just agree to disagree.
BTW Don't call me Virginia!
Regards, CS
PS. I trust the 160 year old double bass was properly restored and repaired
with the traditional HHG, as was used in its original construction...AR can
never be completely cleaned out and it would be a shame to have ruined the
autheticity of the joint for the sake of convenience...besides, as you've
undoubtedly read, there are many experiments that portend to prove some
sonic benefits to HHG (mostly in violin construction), so the hassle may
have a pay off on those crucial vibration transfer points.
No need to answer that...just needed to yank your chain over that Virginia
crack...
-CS
---
The opinions, comments, and advice offered by me, are mine alone.
As such, they carry as much weight as a feather in a snow storm.
Gear Page at: http://www3.sympatico.ca/cybrserf/Gear.htm
"Chris Johnson" <spam...@bite.my.shiny.metal.ass> wrote in message
news:3EF135BC...@bite.my.shiny.metal.ass...
Paul Buerk
like using hide glue for everything but the binding and some of the
decorative work, but haven't yet tried the LMI stuff. I hear from others
that it dries hard and clear like hide glue, but is much more forgiving on
working time. Who has an opinion on the LMI?
"miker" <miker4n...@mindnospamokspring.com> wrote in message
news:bcqncp$n6b$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...
CyberSerf
I've never tried that specific glue, but I have tried a PVA from Lee Valley
called 2002GF that has high solid content. IMHO, it performed just as good
as AR with slightly better gap filling properties...but please note, this is
entirely IMHO and is not backed by any scientific investigation...until I
can find some compelling research to prove otherwise, I think I'll
personally stick to AR if I need a long assembly time or some minimal gap
filling (less than perfect mating in the joint) and HHG in situations that
can profit from its "self-clamping" properties (crack repairs, braces,
etc...). YMMV, all IMHO and again, not based on the LMI PVA.
Cheers, CS
--
---
The opinions, comments, and advice offered by me, are mine alone.
As such, they carry as much weight as a feather in a snow storm.
Gear Page at: http://www3.sympatico.ca/cybrserf/Gear.htm
"Paul Buerk" <paul....@verizon.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:xvkIa.9033$Cd1....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net...
Art Robb
I just been given an "Ozark" (made in Korea) resonator guitar to set up and
that's easy.
It has 3 metal cones that are pressed on a metal plate by the pressure of
the strings on the saddle.
Problem is that the cones rattle against the plate as if the pressure is
insufficient. The rattle is worse when the guitar is held to your chest to
play. Strings are 12 - 54.
What's going on?!!!!
Thanks in advance,
Art
--
* Art Robb * Lute Maker * Musical Instrument Repairer *
email: art...@argonet.co.uk
website: http://www.argonet.co.uk/artlute
Mike Dotson
that's easy.
It has 3 metal cones that are pressed on a metal plate by the pressure of
the strings on the saddle.
Problem is that the cones rattle against the plate as if the pressure is
insufficient. The rattle is worse when the guitar is held to your chest to
play. Strings are 12 - 54.
What's going on?!!!!
Thanks in advance,
Art
It's called a tricone, and most likely the problem is those 12s. Bump up to
13-56 at a minimum. (Lots of folks bump the top two strings up a size from
that)
The saddle should be cut similar to the way you do a nut.