Child hates this - what to do?
Martha
pretty much play Twinkle, though not well. He absolutely hates it. It has
become quite a battle around our house. His teacher's thought is that if I
let him quit, then "he's won," and as such, I should just keep trying
different things - currently she spends half his weekly lesson with him and
half with me - hoping if he sees me learning as well, it will spark his
interest.
We've spent $500 for a violin, so obviously, we'd like him (and two younger
siblings) to use it, but at this point, I'm thinking I should just throw in
the towel. I know how important music lessons are, but should I just give
it up and only pursue it if at some point he expresses an interest? Any
thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I'm really afraid if I force him to
continue, he is really, really going to hate it and never have an interest
in music at all.
Thanks for any thoughts,
Martha
jtay...@nospam.mail.orion.org
again in 3 years or so. Unless he just takes to it, I'd not start so
young.
JT
--
There's nothing I like better than the sound of a banjo, unless of course
it's the sound of a chicken caught in a vacuum cleaner.
Martin0028
>let him quit, then "he's won,"
Wrong. My daughter quit the piano after 2 years of lessons when she was 8.
About three years later she started getting interested again and now that she's
14 we have to tell her to give it a break!!!.
The kids only 4 1/2 . My other daughters violin teacher won't even start a kid
until they are 6. She says the ones that start later usually catch up very
quickly to the ones that start at 3 or 4.
They have to want to do it. You've laid the foundation and if there are others
in the house that are playing I will bet that eventually he will come back to
it.
I mean Twinkle Twinkle after a year? I'd be bored too.
Vic
Unknown
<craig...@nospam.mindspring.com> wrote:
<snip>
It sounds as if he already does...........
Craig
Peter Schug
craig...@nospam.mindspring.com wrote on 9/19/00 4:09 PM:
> My son, age 4 1/2 is beginning his second year of Suzuki violin. He can
> pretty much play Twinkle, though not well. He absolutely hates it. It has
> become quite a battle around our house. His teacher's thought is that if I
> let him quit, then "he's won," and as such, I should just keep trying
> different things - currently she spends half his weekly lesson with him and
> half with me - hoping if he sees me learning as well, it will spark his
> interest.
>
> We've spent $500 for a violin, so obviously, we'd like him (and two younger
> siblings) to use it, but at this point, I'm thinking I should just throw in
> the towel. I know how important music lessons are, but should I just give
> it up and only pursue it if at some point he expresses an interest? Any
> thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I'm really afraid if I force him to
> continue, he is really, really going to hate it and never have an interest
> in music at all.
>
> Thanks for any thoughts,
> Martha
>
>
I hated piano, and I am still not crazy about it. Love my fiddle though!
Maybe it's just not for him or maybe he doesn't even like music.
I'll bet if you gave his violin to one of the other kids he'd get upset!
You can't force anyone to like music. If you can't find a reason, like a kid
in the class he doesn't like or the class makes him miss his favorite tv
show then maybe he really doesn't like it. Having his siblings play may
help, but even little kids know when they are being manipulated.
Pete
--
To reply change fish.net to att.net
Check out my fiddle building web site
http://home.att.net/~PeteSchug/
Updated July 23, 2000
Roberts
beginning in second grade. I waited until they BEGGED me for lessons. They
are 15 and 16 now (and quite good musicians, I think), but the understanding
has always been that lessons are a gift from me (at the cost of the lessons
these days, they really are a gift!!). I suggest that you let him quit. He's
obviously too young, and his teacher does not understand that lessons have to
be fun for a 4 year old to enjoy them. In a few years, when the elementary
school exposes him to the various instruments, he may beg to let him play a
different instrument. Then you can give him private lessons.... Len
David Kaye
" My son, age 4 1/2 is beginning his second year of Suzuki violin. He can
" pretty much play Twinkle, though not well. He absolutely hates it. It has
" become quite a battle around our house. His teacher's thought is that if I
" let him quit, then "he's won,"
Maybe your son once liked the violin, but now he hates it. You and his
teacher have forced him to hate it. His teacher hates music so much that
he thinks of it as a war, and a battle which must be "won". Well, it
sounds like everyone is a loser here: (1) your son for having music ruined
for him, (2) his teacher, who is such a loser he shouldn't even be in
teaching, and (3) you for having killed the joy your kid probably once
had.
And jeez...the kid's 4 years old! What on earth are you doing to him?
Kids need to PLAY and HAVE FUN. Are you trying to compensate for your own
failings by forcing your kids to play music? Why don't YOU get a violin
and see how hard it is to learn.
I don't normally abandon my sense of decorum here, but this attitude of
yours and of your teacher really pisses me off. I have met dozens of
ex-violists since May when I first began playing -- and to a person they
say the same thing: they were forced to play when they were kids and they
hated it so much they eventually put the violin down and stayed as far
away from music as they could.
" We've spent $500 for a violin, so obviously, we'd like him (and two younger
" siblings) to use it, but at this point, I'm thinking I should just throw in
" the towel.
So, you want to recoup your investment by forcing your kid to play? And
not only that, but you want to recoup your investment on your other two
kids as well? Quite honestly, you sound like the kind of person who
should never have brought a kid into this world. I'm very serious about
this. The NERVE of putting $500 over the value of your children's
happiness. This is appalling.
--
(C) 2000 "No light, but rather darkness
David Kaye visible." -- Milton
David Kaye
" I mean Twinkle Twinkle after a year? I'd be bored too.
Indeed. I feel sorry for the poor kid. Music is supposed to be joyful.
We all like variety.
But what's more is the parent's carping about the $500 she spent and which
she intended to saddle THREE children with. This says to me that her
household is a horrible place to live, not full of love, but full of
investments.
Damn, I hate being so harsh about this, but I've been a suicide prevention
counselor, so I know from talking to lots of people that there are loving
households and there are households where kids are expected to be
Jon-Benet Ramsey. Frankly, I'm sick about this.
Four years old! My God.
--
(C) 2000 A minute's success pays the
David Kaye failure of years. --Browning
Lisa
the violin. Leave it somewhere available. It may be just too much for him
at this point. Some kids are just not ready at that age. My youngest
started at 5 and her sister at 8. Both enjoy laying but the older one loves
her viola and now at 22 is working towards a career. Her sister on the
other hand will play but is heading for a career in geology. Kids are
different and you may well have another kid that excels at music.
Martha <craig...@nospam.mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8q8hco$nek$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
> My son, age 4 1/2 is beginning his second year of Suzuki violin. He can
> pretty much play Twinkle, though not well. He absolutely hates it. It
has
> become quite a battle around our house. His teacher's thought is that if
I
> let him quit, then "he's won," and as such, I should just keep trying
> different things - currently she spends half his weekly lesson with him
and
> half with me - hoping if he sees me learning as well, it will spark his
> interest.
>
> We've spent $500 for a violin, so obviously, we'd like him (and two
younger
> siblings) to use it, but at this point, I'm thinking I should just throw
in
Martha
"prevention" guy - after talking to you, I think I'd be ready to blow my
brains out).
After talking to my son, my husband, and his teacher, we've all decided it's
best to give it a rest. If and when he's ready, we can always start back.
On the bright side, he did attend a Kindermusik camp this summer (if you're
not familiar with this - it's a group music program geared mainly toward
preschoolers) and loved it. He said he would really prefer to do this.
Thanks again,
Martha
Martin0028 <marti...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000919171706...@ng-cp1.aol.com...
> > His teacher's thought is that if I
> >let him quit, then "he's won,"
>
> Wrong. My daughter quit the piano after 2 years of lessons when she was 8.
> About three years later she started getting interested again and now that
she's
> 14 we have to tell her to give it a break!!!.
>
> The kids only 4 1/2 . My other daughters violin teacher won't even start a
kid
> until they are 6. She says the ones that start later usually catch up very
> quickly to the ones that start at 3 or 4.
>
> They have to want to do it. You've laid the foundation and if there are
others
> in the house that are playing I will bet that eventually he will come back
to
> it.
>
> I mean Twinkle Twinkle after a year? I'd be bored too.
>
> Vic
Betsy Stocksdale
As a Suzuki teacher, I've taught children as young as 18 months old. We have a
blast, and they do well.
David Kaye is not to be believed. How dare he talk to you this way? First off,
what does he know about child psychology? (By the way, if you've been following
this list for awhile, he's the fellow who doesn't believe there is any benefit
to a beginner to have a decent violin, nor does he hear a difference between
good and bad violins, evidently.) You are obviously a dedicated and loving
parent. I applaud you for undertaking violin lessons.
Also, never did you once say in your original post that your teacher did not
make lessons fun, nor did you say that you placed the $500 above your child's
happiness. As a parent, though, I thoroughly understand why the $500 deserves
mentioning! You have made a sacrifice for the child, and probably, like most
parents, have limited funds to keep "trying out" activities that have such major
expenditures involved.
I think you asked your question of the wrong forum. Most of the people in this
forum are adults, and most have little or no understanding of the Suzuki method
and are negative on it. And/or are learners themselves (as adults) and possibly
think a little too highly of themselves and their abilities. Lessons should
absolutely begin in childhood. An adult may have fun, but they will never
achieve the competence that a child will. Anyone who believes differently is
invited to submit an audio file of his/her playing.
Anyway, here are a few thoughts. You've already made your decision, so just
file these away for when you decide to resume.
I feel it is perfectly OK for a parent to choose a child's instrument at this
age, unless the kid is begging for another instrument. In that case, it's quite
unfair to force another on him.
At this age, children certainly do need to play and have fun. However, in our
American culture, we foolishly and mistakenly have come to believe (in total
ignorance of the history of the concept of childhood and the history of
education) that playing and having fun must be separated from learning.
Fortunately, some educators are wiser.
Perhaps your teacher was excellent, and did her best. Or, perhaps your teacher
did not make it fun enough. Most Suzuki trained teachers are really good at
this, but some people hang out their shingle with insufficient or no training.
Maybe you got one of these.
I agree that you are having a power struggle with your child. He may not hate
violin at all, just not really like to practice. Perhaps you need to work on
more structure in his life, and more discipline (i.e., do you ask him if he'd
like to brush his teeth or if he feels it is time to go to bed? if so,
practicing will never be easy). If practicing is the only time he is expected
to cooperate and do anything that feels challenging, and if he is a controlling
type of child, you are going to have problems. Perhaps your teacher senses
something of this sort is going on at home and is hinting at this when she talks
about him "winning".
Good for you for understanding the importance of music in your child's life. I
also feel that children must study an instrument, and that it must be a part of
their education. Of course, as a loving parent, you should give as many choices
as possible, and be sensitive to your child's preferences, but it is your right
as a parent to choose to include this in your child's education, and I hope you
don't let any of the hysterical responses convince you otherwise.
For every person who said that they "wish their parent hadn't made them" I'll
give you 10 who say the opposite. And those who say the former were probably
allowed to quit before achieving any sense of competence or ownership, i.e. they
won the battle at their house!
Age 4 1/2 is usually not too young, even for a boy. However, if your family is
the unstructured type, you may well have to wait until later. And a year is not
too long on Twinkle, because a foundation is being set. However, there are some
Suzuki teachers who don't pace learning really well. In other words, even
though the first Twinkle may not be perfected, it is OK to go to the second
twinkle and the third, etc. through volume 1, as long as the repertoire
continues to be polished. Master teachers are excellent about this, and
sensitive about when a child really needs to move on.
Good luck to you. Keep that violin, give it a break, attend a Suzuki institute
if possible so you personally are refreshed, and then try again.
Feel free to contact me off list if you wish. I thoroughly expect the foolish
flaming to continue to be violent, and you deserve better.
Peter Schug
wrote on 9/19/00 6:00 PM:
> in article 8q8hco$nek$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net, Martha at
> craig...@nospam.mindspring.com wrote on 9/19/00 4:09 PM:
>
>> My son, age 4 1/2 is beginning his second year of Suzuki violin. He can
>> pretty much play Twinkle, though not well. He absolutely hates it. It has
>> become quite a battle around our house. His teacher's thought is that if I
>> let him quit, then "he's won," and as such, I should just keep trying
>> different things - currently she spends half his weekly lesson with him and
>> half with me - hoping if he sees me learning as well, it will spark his
>> interest.
>>
>> We've spent $500 for a violin, so obviously, we'd like him (and two younger
>> siblings) to use it, but at this point, I'm thinking I should just throw in
>> the towel. I know how important music lessons are, but should I just give
>> it up and only pursue it if at some point he expresses an interest? Any
>> thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I'm really afraid if I force him to
>> continue, he is really, really going to hate it and never have an interest
>> in music at all.
>>
>> Thanks for any thoughts,
>> Martha
>>
>>
> I hated piano, and I am still not crazy about it. Love my fiddle though!
> Maybe it's just not for him or maybe he doesn't even like music.
I forgot to mention that my mother ran out and bought a piano the day I
mentioned that I wanted to learn the clarinet! I hated the thing before it
ever arrived and I drove two piano teachers crazy. I still think it was one
of the stupidest episodes of my life. I stood there begging my mother not to
buy a piano and both she and the salesman ignored me. She wanted a piano and
I was her excuse to buy one. After the second teacher quit I never touched
it again and she finally sold it.
I finally got to play the clarinet in high school, and was pretty good
everything considered.
Tom Keller
any example of his work in suicide prevention.. I feel sorry for the
poor smucks who call him for any sort of support...sheeeeesh...that
kind of support we all can do with out!
On Tue, 19 Sep 2000 18:36:12 -0400, "Lisa" <pooh...@smindspring.com>
wrote:
>He done it a year and he doesn't like it. I'd drop it. Don't get rid of
>the violin. Leave it somewhere available. It may be just too much for him
>at this point. Some kids are just not ready at that age. My youngest
>started at 5 and her sister at 8. Both enjoy laying but the older one loves
>her viola and now at 22 is working towards a career. Her sister on the
>other hand will play but is heading for a career in geology. Kids are
>different and you may well have another kid that excels at music.
>
>Martha <craig...@nospam.mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:8q8hco$nek$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
Kevin
"Martha" <craig...@nospam.mindspring.com> wrote:
> My son, age 4 1/2 is beginning his second year of Suzuki violin. He
can
> pretty much play Twinkle, though not well. He absolutely hates it.
It has
> become quite a battle around our house. His teacher's thought is
that if I
> let him quit, then "he's won," and as such, I should just keep trying
> different things - currently she spends half his weekly lesson with
him and
> half with me - hoping if he sees me learning as well, it will spark
his
> interest.
>
> We've spent $500 for a violin, so obviously, we'd like him (and two
younger
> siblings) to use it, but at this point, I'm thinking I should just
throw in
That's fine, he's not ready for violin yet. He's four years old, he
doesn't wanna, give him a break. But you keep taking lessons. And
having fun with the fiddle. I don't know if your husband plays an
instrument, but if your son is modeling himself on his father then it
would be really good if his father played as well.
Let me tell you how things look in our house. We have no television
but lots of musical instruments hanging on the walls, where they're
easy to get at and play. In our family, we play music and read for
leisure activities. Our daughter was told that it was expected that
she'd play an instrument but that she got to choose the instrument. At
six or seven our daughter chose the instrument that _Mom_ played, the
violin (fiddle). Suzuki was the technique we decided on and it's worked
really well, not least for two reasons:
1. Mom plays the instrument and is able to give instant feedback on
intonation, sight-reading, etc.
2. Our daughter has to practice for half an hour a day. The routine
is, we don't have to answer to her teacher, she does, but we expect her
to be playing the violin with full attention for half an hour a day.
What she plays is up to her. Her lesson, Swedish fiddle tunes, Beatles
songs, waltzes, tunes she makes up, whatever.
It's worked really well. In our family it's expected that you play an
instrument, just like it's expected that you know how to read, write
and do arithmetic. But after my having years of joyless practice on
the piano, there's no reason that our daughter has to suffer like I
did. (Which is why I now play guitar!) I should mention that our
daughter has always grown up listening to her parents make music so she
considers that a normal part of life.
All the usual disclaimers apply, IMHO, YMMV, etc.
Good luck and have fun!
Cheers,
Kevin
http://www.TheNettles.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Peter Held
Yes - reading "Nurtured by Love" by Dr. Suzuki you realize that the Suzuki
Method is all about helping people become wonderful human beings and not
about violin playing. Teachers often lose sight of this.
More insight about 4 1/2 years old. This is an age where some children
take great delight in becoming the chief!!! And How!
My 7 year old just quit this month after 2 years. It turns out that the
pressure was really getting to him. I work in a Violin shop and his mom
plays fiddle most days. Imagine how he felt with all 3 of us (mother,
father and teacher) hanging on every note.
Since he quit he has practiced a few times and seems to enjoy it. More
power to him. I wonder what (if any) instrument he's going to gravitate to.
Pete Held
DGoree
>it up and only pursue it if at some point he expresses an interest? Any
>thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I'm really afraid if I force him to
>continue, he is really, really going to hate it and never have an interest
>in music at all.
>
>
Not knowing your child or your child's teacher, I have no advice to offer--so
much of teaching is so dependent on the personalities involved.
This is what we do at our house, though. We have two sons, aged 5 and 3, both
taking Suzuki lessons from one of my colleagues in the Symphony here (she is an
excellent teacher as well as performer). I started teaching my older son
myself at around 3 1/2--nothing fancy, just taking a few minutes a couple of
times a week to show him how to hold the violin with his head. He started
lessons last year at age four--I was going to say "formal" lessons but that is
hardly the operative word. At that age, lessons consisted of fifteen minutes
once or twice a week, mostly devoted to singing games and learning to hold the
violin--entirely appropriate IMO, as my first goal was to make lessons and
practice (I use the term loosely) a part of our routine. After I started
taking my younger son to the lessons, he (at age two and a half) thought they
were for him too! So now we have half-hour lessons once a week, with the
greater part (20 - 25 mins) devoted to the 5 yr old and the remainder to the 3
yr old...and if their concentration or behavior is off, the lesson ends early
with no harsh consequences. I'm a violin teacher too as well as a symphony
player and I am grateful that my sons' teacher has good judgment in knowing
when to push, when not to, and when to stop early. My older son is a Twinkler;
my younger son is getting pretty good at "heavy head" (holding the violin w/o
hands). Practice time at home is five to seven minutes daily for the older and
just a couple of minutes for the younger, and it is an expected part of the
routine in the same way that brushing their teeth and helping set the table is.
I started violin myself at age five as one of the very early Suzuki students in
the U.S. While I think it is very likely that my sons have some natural
musical ability, I am not doing the lessons to try to produce
prodigies--actually, I would much rather have them turn out to be scientists or
doctors. <g> My reasons for the lessons are: (1) the proven benefits of early
musical study in brain development and mathematical ability; (2) giving them
the opportunity to become good at a difficult and admired skill; (3) giving
them the love of music (though playing good music for them frequently and
taking them to age-appropriate concerts is probably more influential at this
point); and (4) giving them the opportunity to learn how to apply themselves,
persevere, and cope with frustration. This last is important because they are
both very bright--my five year old, who just started kindergarten, is reading
on a third-grade level--and I do not anticipate them being sufficiently
challenged in school.
Good luck to you in your quest to make music a part of your children's lives,
and remember, *you* know your children best--far better than some strangers
online possibly could.
Mary Ellen
David Kaye
" If David Kaye's, thoughtful, sensitive response to Martha's post...is
" any example of his work in suicide prevention.. I feel sorry for the
" poor smucks who call him for any sort of support...sheeeeesh...that
" kind of support we all can do with out!
Believe me, since I posted that response this afternoon I've spent all
evening thinking about it. I don't take lightly what I said. I thought
of killing the post before it was sent out by my ISP. I thought of
apologizing. But no, this is some very important stuff here. I see
something that goes far beyond playing the violin. I see some serious
child-rearing issues here.
Tonight was my lesson, and I even mentioned the situation to my teacher.
He related the story of a guy his own age, 25, who was taken under the
wing of bluegrass players at an early age and force-fed country fiddling.
Today he hates it so much, he quit violin abruptly and now works at a
convenience store. It's doubtful that the friend will ever go back to
violin.
My intent was not to be supportive of the mother, so you didn't see any
support there. I'm fully supportive of the KID because it's clearly
obvious to anyone that he doesn't want to play, and he's being forced to
do so. I'm advocating for the kid because the kid is the one who needs
the support.
--
(C) 2000 1/2 the petroleum on earth has
David Kaye been used in the past 90 years
David Kaye
" Thanks for everyone's thoughtful replies (except for the suicide
" "prevention" guy - after talking to you, I think I'd be ready to blow my
" brains out).
I'm not intending to be supportive of you. Your kid is the one who needs
the support, and YOU need to give it to him by believing what he says and
going with it. You have some serious issues about listening to your kid
and doing what's best for him. I've simply seen too many victims of
parents who just would not listen. PLEASE don't be one of those parents.
" After talking to my son, my husband, and his teacher, we've all decided it's
" best to give it a rest. If and when he's ready, we can always start back.
And I should hope you emphasize the word "IF". If he NEVER wants to play
violin again, you'd better be prepared to live with that decision, or
you're going to cause a serious rift in your relationship with your son.
--
(C) 2000 The USA spends more than 1/3 of the
David Kaye world's money spent on military.
Lisa
Betsy Stocksdale <bat...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:39C81C5D...@erols.com...
> Let me express a healthy dose of anger for all the idiotic replies you
got.
this
> forum are adults, and most have little or no understanding of the Suzuki
method
> and are negative on it.
familiar with Suzuki. Why do you think I told her to leave the violin
available? Because there is a good chance the kid will pick it up and go
back to it if left to his own devices. And if not that child perhaps one of
her other kids will.
Yes my kids are no longer taking with a Suzuki teacher. Few if any 18 and
22 year olds are. Actually my 22 year old teaches violin and viola. And
yes she uses the same Suzuki books and techniques her teacher used to teach
her with her students.
So don't assume that everyone one this list is against Suzuki.
Betsy Stocksdale
teachers of the method on this NG, and level-headed people of every stripe. I
only said the others abound, and are vocal. In fact, it has been nice to see
this issue draw some of the latter out of lurk mode.
Lisa wrote:
> Betsy Stocksdale <bat...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:39C81C5D...@erols.com...
> > Let me express a healthy dose of anger for all the idiotic replies you
> got.
> > I think you asked your question of the wrong forum. Most of the people in
> this
> > forum are adults, and most have little or no understanding of the Suzuki
> method
> > and are negative on it.
jtay...@nospam.mail.orion.org
people want to die, parents. Those who are so strict that they don't let
their child enjoy life. I dont think I would of liked being forced to play
the violin at 4 1/2, but I love it at 41. You'd think there'd be more
appreciation for TIMING on a violin NG? <grin>
JT
--
Volkswagens dont leak oil.....they mark their territory
Neal
of Suzuki. However, forcing a student to continue study when they DON'T WANT
TO DO IT is simply wrong. If music education is a requirement for your
chldren, Suzuki violin isn't the only option. If my child (if I had one)
said that they didn't want to do violin anymore, I'd allow them to try
something else, like piano, or recorder.
Of course, we all know part of successful Suzuki teaching is to make it FUN
fot the student. If the child wants out, it may be a sign that it is no
longer fun - perhaps the teacher's fault, perhaps not. Trying a new teacher
might be a viable option. But outright denying a child the chioce to stay or
quit is not right. Yes, parents must parent, but if a kid says ow, he MIGHT
be hurt.
Betsy Stocksdale <bat...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:39C8C7F8...@erols.com...
> I never assumed everyone was against Suzuki. I know there are students
and
> teachers of the method on this NG, and level-headed people of every
stripe. I
> only said the others abound, and are vocal. In fact, it has been nice to
see
> this issue draw some of the latter out of lurk mode.
>
> Lisa wrote:
>
> > Betsy Stocksdale <bat...@erols.com> wrote in message
> > news:39C81C5D...@erols.com...
> > > Let me express a healthy dose of anger for all the idiotic replies you
> > got.
> > > I think you asked your question of the wrong forum. Most of the
people in
> > this
> > > forum are adults, and most have little or no understanding of the
Suzuki
> > method
> > > and are negative on it.
Karen Rile
wrote on 9/19/00 10:09 PM:
> Also, never did you once say in your original post that your teacher did not
> make lessons fun, nor did you say that you placed the $500 above your child's
> happiness. As a parent, though, I thoroughly understand why the $500 deserves
> mentioning! You have made a sacrifice for the child, and probably, like most
> parents, have limited funds to keep "trying out" activities that have such
> major expenditures involved.
>
> I think you asked your question of the wrong forum. Most of the people in
> this forum are adults, and most have little or no understanding of the Suzuki
> method and are negative on it. And/or are learners themselves (as adults) and
> possibly think a little too highly of themselves and their abilities. Lessons
> should absolutely begin in childhood. An adult may have fun, but they will
> never achieve the competence that a child will. Anyone who believes
> differently is invited to submit an audio file of his/her playing.
>
I haven't been reading this ng lately, so I found this thread a little late.
I was impressed by the vehemence and negativity of some of the replies. This
mom obviously cares about her child and wants to do the right thing, yet she
is getting a message from her teacher that conflicts with what her instincts
tell her to.
This is a mom with three small children who has made an investment of much
more than $500-- Suzuki method is a lifestyle, and not always as easy to
follow as one would like, especially if, like this mom, you have 3 small
children under 5 (did I read that right?)
Having walked many miles in those shoes (I have 4 children, 3 of whom play
violin and 4 of whom began playing violin quite young) I do want to offer
support for whatever path she takes. Each of my children has had a very
different approach to music, so much so that I often feel I will never be
able to learn from experience!
I know of many parents, myself included, who have had to decide whether to
nudge a child along a difficult path. For my part, I decided to let my
youngest daughter quit violin when she grew impatient and weary; she is
taking a different path than her sisters and may not begin formal music
study until she is older, and that's fine.
For what it's worth (anecdotes aren't worth much, except as support) my 3rd
daughter stopped lessons twice, when she was 3 1/2 and 4 1/2, but wanted to
start again, and by 5 1/2 was completely absorbed in the violin. Today, at
8, she plays for hours every day and loves it.
--
"Sometimes one greatly dislikes a person for no particular reason--and then
that person goes and does something hateful." --Sei Shonagon, from "Hateful
Things"
David Kaye
" I disagree! If you READ what he says, he is mad at the people who make
" people want to die, parents.
Nearly every case of depression (that wasn't chemically induced) that I
encountered could be traced back to parent/child relationships. It was so
pervasive that a whole psychology genre grew out of it called
Transactional Analysis.
Among the triggers of depression were
(1) unreasonable expectations of children by their parents, which the
children felt they could never live up to -- and this continued into
adulthood;
(2) making the kid feel guilty about things out of their control (the "I
spent $500 on the violin" phrase was what probably kicked my into gear on
this whole issue) -- how many times does a parent say, "After all I've
done for you and now you do this..."? -- this also continues into adult
life as parents demand that their children become their entertainment
centers;
(3) the parent living their life through the child. This also comes up in
later life by the child taking unreasonable risks to prove something,
usually to prove that they are *not* their parent. CNN's Ted Turner has
agonized in print that he spent much of his life trying to prove to his
father that he was *not* his father.
" Those who are so strict that they don't let
" their child enjoy life. I dont think I would of liked being forced to play
" the violin at 4 1/2, but I love it at 41. You'd think there'd be more
" appreciation for TIMING on a violin NG? <grin>
At 42 I'm taking up the violin for the first time. Do I regret that I
didn't take it up at age 4 or 6 or 8? Not really. I'm doing it because I
want to, not because I desire to join a symphony. Are there really a lot
of kids out there who *really* desire to play in a symphony one day? I
seriously doubt it. If a kid is not going to play in a symphony at age
15, then what's the use of starting so early?
Did I "lose time" by not starting early? Well, held to some standard of
trying to play like Joshua Bell, maybe. But, like most things in my life
and like most people I've known (young and old), I want to develop my
*own* style, not someone else's.
My teacher, who I said is 25, has been playing for 17 years. He is
awesome, all right. For him, violin was a passion, but he frankly tells
me that if he parents had pressured him, he would have given it up. He
also has told me that at my age I can learn everything he has mastered,
and that eventually I probably will, even though he got a couple decades
head start on me.
A violinist I like even better, didn't start until he was about 30. The
guy plays bluegrass, swing, even acid jazz. He's the one who told me,
"Don't worry, it's just 4 wires and a box."
--
(C) 2000 Experience is usually the result of bad judgement.
David Kaye
David Kaye
" This is a mom with three small children who has made an investment of much
" more than $500--
This was the one part of the post that pushed me over the edge. The fact
that she brought it up made me wonder about motivation. First, what's she
doing buying a $500 violin for a kid who isn't interested? Heck, I'm
interested and I bought a $100 violin. I'm not going to move up until I'm
sure I've had gotten all the mileage out of the one I've got. When my mom
helped me with clarinet as a kid, she rented until she was sure that I was
really interested, and then she bought a used one.
" Having walked many miles in those shoes (I have 4 children, 3 of whom play
" violin and 4 of whom began playing violin quite young) I do want to offer
" support for whatever path she takes.
But what is this about all your kids playing violin? Did they all
gravitate to it? Were they pushed into it? It just seems strange that
all of them were interested in violin. I should think that if they
gravitated toward an instrument it would be one seen more often like a
guitar or drums.
" For what it's worth (anecdotes aren't worth much, except as support) my 3rd
" daughter stopped lessons twice, when she was 3 1/2 and 4 1/2, but wanted to
" start again, and by 5 1/2 was completely absorbed in the violin. Today, at
" 8, she plays for hours every day and loves it.
This maybe be good, but it may also be bad. I'm a little worried about
kids who do anything for hours a day, especially playing an instrument
that is held in such an unnatural position. I can't help but fear the she
may develop tendonitis, carpal tunnel, etc. Not to scare you, but we
often ask out bodies to do things for which they were not designed.
Playing violin is one of those.
Jon
ones [I modestly put myself in that category, but I have paid my dues]
who at some time or another have given up the violin. This includes
me.
Now I never had the opportunity to take violin at such a tender age.
This just wasn't done when and where I grew up [small town in
Wisconsin]. Also Suzuki had not reached these shores in 1952 when at
age 10 I first took violin as part of a grade school class program.
[There may have been more aspects of what ultimately became Suzuki
-minus the parental involvement- in this program than I was aware of
until fairly recently]
I gave up the violin at 14 or 15 because of different interests, not
the least of which were girls [one of whom I ultimately
married...still have her]. Through a couple of turns of fate, I did
discover the factor missing in my earlier lessons. I had no real
reason to play the violin!!!! Yes I liked it, was better than
passably good at it, but the stuff I was playing at that time was not
something I could be passionate about. Having lived a rather normal
teen life such as it was in the mid-late 1950's, I could at 14 or so
said I would have rather played rock or folk, both of which interested
me.
Then [enter FATE] I discovered the classical repetory, mostly because
I had access to an embryonic collection at the public library where I
worked after school. A friend who had continued with the violin had
just returned a copy of La Boheme and said I should listen to it. I
did and was hooked, first on opera [as a former choirboy, singing was
even a possibility at that time] then latter on the orchestral
literature and finally virtually all aspects of what we call
classical. [I will be no snob here, had I been exposed to folk
fiddling first, I could have easily gone that way, but the only folk
music in Wisconsin at that time was polka music and Omph Pah
German bands-neither noted for much violin employment]
Now I WANTED to play what I was hearing. With that in mind, I resumed
lessons [private and school] in my senior year of high school and when
I went away to university, I tried out for the orchestra, made it
[just] and was able to get world class instruction for all of my
college years. I did not major in music nor have I ever been employed
in any significant professional way in music other than an occasional
honorarium. I now play close to 30 concerts/year in two orchestras,
an opera company, even broadway musicals [most recently for a high
school] All through my professional life [career U.S. Government
official] I have managed to play in orchestras most of the time except
for a few years when my travel made membership in a standing orchestra
impractical. Now I am retired from working life and music is a major
part of my retired life [sailing is another].
My point, is of course, that a 4 year old may have trouble
understanding why he is doing this at this time. While I didn't play
an instrument at 4 or 5, I do remember being in things such as
Christmas pagents at church and I was utterly clueless as to why I was
there, other than my folks made me do it [or more precisely, put me in
the situation where my participation was expected.]
My two year hiatus in high school from the violin in high school was
not because of indifferance on the part of my parents. They got on my
case about it several times in a way which could almost be considered
snide [at least to a 15 y.o. who really didn't care much what his
folks thought....this comes with the turf of being both a teen and a
parent. I've been on both ends of this daisy chain.] BTW my mother
was a pretty accomplished pianist.
I gave my own two kids [now 34 and 33] the opportunity of piano
lessons at early grade school. It did not really take. I asked them
about it much later in their lives, and they said that they felt a bit
intimidated by having a parent with reasonably accomplished skills on
an instrument [I started piano for the first time when my kids
did....big mistake] and they saw me playing in big theaters in big
symphonies [their perception...they were all community or town/gown
non-pro orchestras] and just felt they would never get there
themselves. I found that to be an interesting observation. It was
made when my kids were adults.
Jon Teske, violinist
Marsha Rider
"Martha" wrote:
> My son, age 4 1/2 is beginning his second year of Suzuki violin. <snip>
>He absolutely hates it. <snip>
>We've spent $500 for a violin
A friend's youngest sister had the same reaction to violin at almost
the same age. Despite all tactics by parents and teacher to
encourage the child, the violin ended up the worse for the efforts.
The child opened the lowest drawer on her bedroom chest,
sat the fiddle on end in the drawer with the back of the scroll against
the chest front and slammed the drawer on it, neatly slicing off the neck.
The child actually claimed she had no idea how it happened.
She just found it like that..lying in the closed drawer in two pieces.
Now, this was a spoiled child, and hopefully your son is not
quite so cruel. This is just to show the lengths some children
will go to prove a point.
I read your later post on letting it rest for a while.
Here's hoping he'll want to learn it later.
Marsha
Karen Rile
wrote on 9/21/00 1:59 AM:
> But what is this about all your kids playing violin? Did they all
> gravitate to it? Were they pushed into it? It just seems strange that
> all of them were interested in violin. I should think that if they
> gravitated toward an instrument it would be one seen more often like a
> guitar or drums.
Um, not to dignify your attack, but rather for the sake of other parents on
this forum, particularly the original post-er: we reluctant began violin
with my oldest when she was six after she *begged* for a violin. Last thing
in the world I needed, with 3 small children and a career, was another daily
obligation. We didn't push her and she didn't push herself, but she has
always enjoyed the instrument, even if her progress was never spectacular.
This week, at age almost-14, she is starting viola. It's very exciting!
Everyone in the house wants to play her 16" instrument with its super-cool
c-string. Even the 8-year-old, which is a comical sight.
The other kids wanted to play because their sisters played. Just like they
wanted to ride bikes, roller-skate, etc. It's as simple as that. The Suzuki
group classes they took in the beginning were *fun* (usually.) The
institutes we attended were fun, too. Why wouldn't they want to play? We
play music in our house all the time. My husband is an accomplished pianist
and I am an extremely mediocre flutist, but we love music. What's your
problem, David Kaye, that make you generalize all human experience to your
own? You do realize, don't you, that there is variety in human experience?
I wrote,
> " For what it's worth (anecdotes aren't worth much, except as support) my 3rd
> " daughter stopped lessons twice, when she was 3 1/2 and 4 1/2, but wanted to
> " start again, and by 5 1/2 was completely absorbed in the violin. Today, at
> " 8, she plays for hours every day and loves it.
and David Kaye responded, in a copyrighted post,
> This maybe be good, but it may also be bad. I'm a little worried about
> kids who do anything for hours a day, especially playing an instrument
> that is held in such an unnatural position. I can't help but fear the she
> may develop tendonitis, carpal tunnel, etc. Not to scare you, but we
> often ask out bodies to do things for which they were not designed.
> Playing violin is one of those.
Thanks for worrying about my daughter. </sarcasm> FYI, kids do all sorts of
things for hours at a time. They play soccer, they play secret agent, they
swing on swings, read, and play with paper dolls. None of these activities
activities are especially natural or unnatural. She isn't practicing 8 or
even 5 hours a day, more like 2. If something hurts or of she's getting
frustrated she stops and takes a break.
She thinks violin is fun, otherwise I doubt I would go to the trouble to
facilitate this interest. Her biggest treat this year will be hearing
Hillary Hahn with the Phila orchestra in a few weeks. She's been begging to
hear HH for a year now. My oldest is coming to the concert, too, because she
loves going to concerts. My 10 year old opted out because she "doesn't like
to sit still that long." There are many gradations of "normal." There are
many gradations of happiness, too.
--
In walking, just walk. In sitting, just sit. Above all, don't wobble.
-Yun-Men
David E Allen
: Maybe your son once liked the violin, but now he hates it. You and his
: teacher have forced him to hate it. His teacher hates music so much that
: he thinks of it as a war, and a battle which must be "won". Well, it
: sounds like everyone is a loser here: (1) your son for having music ruined
: for him, (2) his teacher, who is such a loser he shouldn't even be in
: teaching, and (3) you for having killed the joy your kid probably once
: had.
Relax, man. I've been really enjoying your posts lately. More mellow, and
encouraging and informative!!
You've spent a great deal of time (each call IS an eternity) with folks who
have been DEEPLY hurt! I spend half my spare time with kids who have been
very hurt by their parents and have hurt themselves in big ways too (often
as a result).
You have done a very good job of empathizing with these people and have
helped them away from suicide. This is wonderful! I speak as someone who has
spent many, many years on that edge.
Now I implore you to empathize with parents. I suspect you haven't been one
yet. For many, $500 IS a fortune! Our daughter has often gone without many
things she needed so her kids would have what they need. (And we sent money
too...) Being a single computer type guy, I bet 70% of your income is
"discretionary" - spend it however you want. I bet 100% of your free time is
spent however you want to! Whew! Try being a parent, a young, struggling
parent! No time! No money! No patience! No peace!
Parents need support too! LOTS of it! It's the hardest job in the world!
The more supportive we can be of them, the more their kids will benefit!
When we get a post asking "What do I do?", try handling it as a call on your
hotline. Our first job is to understand the situation. Passing judgement is
never part of our job here, especially about folks that we have only a shred
of information about. Sure, those shreds ($500, the boy "winning", etc) can
set off alarms. Our job is not to ignore the alarms, but to continue to
listen and get the WHOLE picture! If we need to make suggestions, we do it
as gently as possible. We caution people, not blast them! Folks on your
hotline were reaching out for help. So are the people in this group -
ESPECIALLY the parents! Being a parent is a very hard job a lot of the time
and you spend plenty of time crying for your kids!
You and I have both dealt with kids that were severely hurt by their parents -
we have seen the worst of what parents do. Not all parents hurt their children
to that extent! Even the ones that hate to waste $500. And sometimes you
HAVE to win a battle with your kid - "You WILL stay out of the street!" "You
WILL stop hitting your sister!" There are some tense moments between parents
and kids. These set of alarms and push buttons. But in most homes this is
only 1% of the picture! The other 99% of the time is spent laughing, loving,
playing. Look for the WHOLE picture! Empathize with EVERYONE who posts here.
Your spirit will be refreshed by these parents who DO want to do the right
thing. What a joy to read of the kids who are playing and have played for
many years! You will see a lot of bright, warm lights shining in the homes
represented here! What a joy!
dave allen, colorado springs
David Kaye
" Um, not to dignify your attack, but rather for the sake of other parents on
" this forum, particularly the original post-er: [....]
" The other kids wanted to play because their sisters played. Just like they
" wanted to ride bikes, roller-skate, etc. It's as simple as that.
Um, not to dignify your response, but you present a very good explanation.
I don't know how valid it is, but I can see that it's somewhat valid.
" [....] What's your problem, David Kaye, [....]
Um, not to dignify your question, I won't give a reply.
" and David Kaye responded, in a copyrighted post,
All my posts carry the copyright notice because two were previously taken
and used in books. Incidentally, all works are automatically copyrighted
upon creation (as of the change in law in 1978), so my notice carries no
additional protection, it's just a notice.
--
(C) 2000
David Kaye
amb...@my-deja.com
Betsy Stocksdale <bat...@erols.com> wrote:
> I think you asked your question of the wrong forum.
I think you're strongly misjudging who reads and posts here.
Nonetheless, there's also a great web-based discussion system with a
lot of string players. Check out Maestronet's Fingerboard, at
http://fingerboard.maestronet.com/ -- it's a mixture of luthiers,
professional players, adult amateurs of all levels, and teenagers,
and, important to our original posters, a good support network of
parents who don't play, but have children who do. The signal-to-noise
ratio is typically very good.
> Most of the people in this forum are adults, and most have little or
> no understanding of the Suzuki method and are negative on it.
I suspect that a large number of the people who read this forum have
direct experience with the Suzuki method, in one form or another --
and have, accordingly, had good and bad experiences with it,
particularly given the very large number of teachers who "use" Suzuki
or call themselves "Suzuki teachers" who do not really adhere to the
principles of the method. It appears, however, that large numbers of
_professional violin teachers_ do not really understand the
method. People are negative on Suzuki for very good reasons, even
though most of the time they are not criticizing the method per se,
but whatever form of "Suzuki" they were exposed to.
(I am not personally negative on Suzuki -- but in my childhood, I was
part of top-notch Suzuki programs with excellent teachers. Many have
not had positive experiences.)
> And/or are learners themselves (as adults) and possibly think a
> little too highly of themselves and their abilities.
There are a significant number of adult amateurs on this forum who are
skilled enough to play professionally, if they had chosen to do so.
Many of them took lessons into adulthood, or are still taking lessons --
why should learning stop after the age of 21?
Of course, there are plenty of adult beginners here, too, but I think
they have an excellent appreciation of the skill that stringed
instruments demand -- and their relative lack of such skill.
> Lessons should absolutely begin in childhood. An adult may have
> fun, but they will never achieve the competence that a child will.
> Anyone who believes differently is invited to submit an audio file
> of his/her playing.
I disagree with the latter quite strongly. I believe that starting in
childhood is an enormous advantage -- both from the standpoint of the
practicality of finding free time to practice, and from conditioning
the mind and body early on (proved out by scientific studies).
However, the average adult should be capable, over time, of achieving
what the average child could. It appears that everyone has certain
natural limits; even a great virtuoso such as Itzhak Perlman would not
become Jascha Heifetz's technical equal with more practice. You no
doubt know many children who study assiduously over the years, and
never get beyond an intermediate level -- just as there are many
adults who never get beyond the intermediate level.
(Didn't the well-known Suzuki pedagogue Ed Kreitman start out as a
clarinet player and band director, and learn the violin in adulthood?)
> I agree that you are having a power struggle with your child. He
> may not hate violin at all, just not really like to practice.
Or he might genuinely dislike the instrument. Or the routine of
practice (how many four-year-olds have long attention spans?) is so
frustrating to him that he's come to hate it. Or he's bored to
tears. If I'd spent a year playing Twinkle as a kid, I'd have
thrown a tantrum at each practice session for sure!
(I also wonder about the degree of natural talent he possesses,
if a year has passed and he's still trying to Twinkle. Another
instrument might be advisable.)
The early stages of learning the instrument are enormously
frustrating. As a child, there often seems to be very little reward
in the process. You struggle with this ill-made box that doesn't
produce a very good sound even in the hands of your teacher, playing
music that you quite possibly don't like very much, and there might
not even be music that you like that you can play for _years_.
> I also feel that children must study an instrument, and that it must
> be a part of their education.
I believe that children should develop a love of the arts, and this
does not necessarily mean that they need to be musical. Try out
another instrument -- bring him to a production of Peter and the Wolf
or some other introduction to the orchestra, and see if there's an
instrument he wants to play. Voice lessons are a possibility, too.
Don't feel obliged to stick to the classical style, either -- perhaps
your child would prefer fiddle over classical violin, or jazz, or
rock. Or perhaps your child would enjoy art classes instead, or dance,
or theatre.
Or maybe he's just too young for the kind of attention span that music
lessons and daily practice demand. Try a group music-preparatory program
for a year or three instead.
> For every person who said that they "wish their parent hadn't made
> them" I'll give you 10 who say the opposite. And those who say the
> former were probably allowed to quit before achieving any sense of
> competence or ownership, i.e. they won the battle at their house!
I played both violin and piano as a child. I wish heartily that my
parents had not forced me to play the piano (they finally let me quit
after six years and a lot of conflict and unnecessary heartache), even
though I acknowledge that expertise on the piano would have helped me
vastly (indeed, I had to take remedial piano lessons in college, in
order to pass my piano proficiency exam), in doing composition and
theory. But I simply don't much care for the sound of the piano on its
own, nor do I enjoy the physical feeling of playing it.
There is a huge difference between a child who basically likes the
instrument, but is too lazy or too undisciplined to spend time
practicing, and a child who genuinely doesn't like the instrument.
The latter should be allowed to find a better way to spend his time.
So should children who are not yet mentally or physically ready
for the task.
I don't think there needs to be a huge sense of urgency on getting
a student started, as long as it's by the age of nine (which seems to
be the upper limit on age where scientifically-measurable benefits are
exhibited).
There is, by the way, an interesting book out there called,
"The Right Instrument For Your Child", which tries to match
children with instruments on the basis of personality.
jtay...@nospam.mail.orion.org
<snip>
| Now I implore you to empathize with parents. I suspect you haven't been one
| yet. For many, $500 IS a fortune! Our daughter has often gone without many
Yeah, and $500 was spent _hoping_ that the child would take to it and play
it! Why not spend $90 and see first??? Why force him to play it? I wasnt
forced and now I _want_ to some 35 yrs later. If music isnt a joy its a
chore!
| things she needed so her kids would have what they need. (And we sent money
| too...) Being a single computer type guy, I bet 70% of your income is
| "discretionary" - spend it however you want. I bet 100% of your free time is
| spent however you want to! Whew! Try being a parent, a young, struggling
| parent! No time! No money! No patience! No peace!
No peace for children chained to music lessons, either!
| You and I have both dealt with kids that were severely hurt by their parents -
| we have seen the worst of what parents do. Not all parents hurt their children
| to that extent! Even the ones that hate to waste $500. And sometimes you
That decision should of been viewed as a GAMBLE, and _losing_ was a
possibility.
| HAVE to win a battle with your kid - "You WILL stay out of the street!" "You
| WILL stop hitting your sister!" There are some tense moments between parents
| and kids. These set of alarms and push buttons. But in most homes this is
"You will take music lessons" is not the same thing.
JT
Karen Rile
at jtay...@nospam.mail.orion.org wrote on 9/22/00 9:32 AM:
> David E Allen <da...@mse13.cos.agilent.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> | Now I implore you to empathize with parents. I suspect you haven't been one
> | yet. For many, $500 IS a fortune! Our daughter has often gone without many
> <snip>
>
> Yeah, and $500 was spent _hoping_ that the child would take to it and play
> it! Why not spend $90 and see first??? Why force him to play it? I wasnt
> forced and now I _want_ to some 35 yrs later. If music isnt a joy its a
> chore!
This $500 is a red herring. I'm not sure the original poster realizes it, so
I will point out that the instrument can be resold, either privately or on
consignment. After all, as we can probably all agree, there is a steady
supply of parents eager to menace their children with violin lessons. She
may well come out having spent less in the end that had she rented it.
--
"That's great, but what's for bre'fixt?" --Madz
Robert Krawitz
> This $500 is a red herring. I'm not sure the original poster realizes it, so
> I will point out that the instrument can be resold, either privately or on
> consignment. After all, as we can probably all agree, there is a steady
> supply of parents eager to menace their children with violin lessons. She
> may well come out having spent less in the end that had she rented it.
I've seen one of those kids who was obviously being hurt by pushy
parents, and it rather ticked me off. This was the (teenage) daughter
of a sibling of a friend.
Her father had this notion that she was going to be a professional
violinist or something. He kept her violin in the car so that she
could play wherever they went. So they came over one fine day, and
everyone thought it would be great if we played some duets. So we
went to the basement to rehearse a bit, and it was obvious that she
had no enthusiasm whatsoever for playing, and wasn't particularly good
(this was stuff like Mozart K.423). Eventually her dad came down to
find out when we were going to perform. I wound up having to deal
with it by saying that I wasn't comfortable performing on such short
notice, and then I later explained to my wife and her friend what was
going on.
Her real passion was theatre. Her father insisted that she attend
music camps all summer, and forbade her from acting. So she went to a
music camp, and found they had a drama production, and played the lead
part. Reportedly, her father was furious. Apparently the real
problem is that he wanted to be a musician but didn't have the
talent. Since she did have some talent, he wanted to live what he
wanted vicariously through her.
Meanwhile, I was rather hoping (for her sake) that they'd leave the
violin in the car on a really hot day and it would get damaged beyond
repair.
--
Robert Krawitz <r...@alum.mit.edu> http://www.tiac.net/users/rlk/
Tall Clubs International -- http://www.tall.org/ or 1-888-IM-TALL-2
Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- mail l...@uunet.uu.net
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--Eric Crampton
Betsy Stocksdale
>
> I think you're strongly misjudging who reads and posts here.
>
As I've said, this controversy is drawing some people out of the woodwork.
People who I've never seen post before. I'm really glad about that.
> most of the time they are not criticizing the method per se,
> but whatever form of "Suzuki" they were exposed to.
>
Exactly. Unfortunately, Dr. Suzuki was an idealist, and although he
required certification of his teachers in Japan, no such system was set up
in America. He believed that we would do fine without it, but he was
wrong. Certification ("recognition" certificates, if I understand it
correctly) is in the works, and has been for about 10 years, but it appears
it will come to fruition this year.
>
> Many of them took lessons into adulthood, or are still taking lessons --
> why should learning stop after the age of 21?
>
> Of course, there are plenty of adult beginners here, too, but I think
> they have an excellent appreciation of the skill that stringed
> instruments demand -- and their relative lack of such skill.
>
Well, I wasn't referring to those who had begun in childhood and continued
into adulthood. Let the learning continue! God forbid that it should ever
stop. One of my favorite videos is on the life of Yehudi Menuhin, who
continued to learn styles of violin and fiddle playing until his death.
However, I have seen a good number of vocal posts on this list (and others)
of adult beginners who clearly don't know how much there is to learn. Or,
as an adult beginner (with classical music, and on their first instrument)
that they may never achieve some of these things, no matter how hard they
try (see below). It was to this that I was referring.
> However, the average adult should be capable, over time, of achieving
> what the average child could.
Not true. Disproved in research and in practical experience.
> It appears that everyone has certain
> natural limits;
Of course. But the potential for a beginner in childhood is greater, vastly
so, than for any adult beginning his first instrument. Of course
circumstances and motivation play an enormous role here! So you will of
course meet talented children who never produced close to their potential,
and mediocre adults who look good to the uneducated public because they have
worked their tails off.
> (Didn't the well-known Suzuki pedagogue Ed Kreitman start out as a
> clarinet player and band director, and learn the violin in adulthood?)
>
Ah, but this is the difference: it was not his first instrument! He was
already a musician.
> Or he might genuinely dislike the instrument.
Of course. But it is very hard to be sure of this in a short year, at this
age. More time is needed.
> Or the routine of
> practice (how many four-year-olds have long attention spans?)
None that I've met. So it is up to the parents to know the child's limits
in practice, and how to use the precious minutes to full advantage, and HAVE
FUN during that time!
> Or he's bored to
> tears. If I'd spent a year playing Twinkle as a kid, I'd have
> thrown a tantrum at each practice session for sure!
I'd agree with that. The teacher may well be at fault here, or the parent
simply hasn't been practicing well. I've dismissed more than a few students
because of this. I explain to the parents that if they don't come to
lessons prepared, the child will hate the instrument, the lessons, the
sporadic practices, and possibly the parents and teacher, because they will
not see themselves advancing. They will certainly be bored. There is a
certain critical momentum that must be achieved in learning (anything, for
that matter--remember "busy work" in school?) for it to be a positive
experience.
> Another
> instrument might be advisable.)
>
Indeed. It is just a little early for such a tough call.
>
> I believe that children should develop a love of the arts, and this
> does not necessarily mean that they need to be musical.
No, but playing music, whether or not you are "musical" (and here is a
matter for another great debate--everyone possesses potential musicality if
addressed early enough) is a totally different experience than
"appreciating" it. It affects the brain quite differently, and positively.
Most ground-breaking educators, going back to Plato, have recognized the
importance of this.
> Don't feel obliged to stick to the classical style, either -- perhaps
> your child would prefer fiddle over classical violin,
Amen. I wish I had grown up in an Irish music playing family, such is my
passion for this music. But I am grateful for my classical background and
skills, even though it is not my preferred music anymore.
> Or maybe he's just too young for the kind of attention span that music
> lessons and daily practice demand.
Really, this is the job of the parent and teacher. There is no such thing
as too young. I've taught very young children, and all you have to do is
figure out where they're at mentally, and stop ten seconds short of that!
Suzuki is quoted as saying that the lesson (and practice) should stop at the
first "sigh".
> Try a group music-preparatory program
> for a year or three instead.
>
These are cute and fun, but I have never taught a child who received any
benefit from them, even in the area of attitude or motivation. Of course,
this is my own personal experience speaking, not a fact.
> I wish heartily that my
> parents had not forced me to play the piano (they finally let me quit
> after six years and a lot of conflict and unnecessary heartache),
Ah, but you may have felt differently if you had persisted into college.
Since you were allowed to quit, you will never know. But, I do think it is
OK to quit if all the right signs are there, provided the parent insists
that another instrument be studied in place of quitting. If a child is old
enough to really know their own mind, a parent should be sensitive to their
wishes.
> I don't think there needs to be a huge sense of urgency on getting
> a student started, as long as it's by the age of nine (which seems to
> be the upper limit on age where scientifically-measurable benefits are
> exhibited).
You are speaking of the research of Edwin Gordon. He has been able to prove
that the potential musicality that anyone is born with starts to wither
after age nine if formal instruction is not given. But his research also
indicates that there is another cut-off earlier, at around age 3-4. Other
research indicates this as well. And Gordon has also found that the
"potential" decreases with every year up to age 9. It is complicated stuff,
but worth looking at. I've not given it sufficient explanation here.
>
> There is, by the way, an interesting book out there called,
> "The Right Instrument For Your Child", which tries to match
> children with instruments on the basis of personality.
>
I've seen this book. It is a good one.
Betsy Stocksdale
that Suzuki's mission was not to create prodigies, but to raise the level of
humanity in every child through the vehicle of music.
I have encountered parents such as this, and if after years of working with them
trying to help them understand the process better, they persist in being stage
parents, I dismiss them. They usually end up with Russian teachers!
Recently I dismissed a family after only 5 lessons. I couldn't convince the dad
to practice "naturally". He was forcing his 3 1/2 and 5 year old to practice an
hour a day each, only one song each week, over and over. He said he'd make them
do the right hand 5 times, then the left 5 times, and repeat this over and over.
After several weeks of their non-progress in lessons, and the dad unrelenting, I
walked out of the lesson and told them to leave. I was livid, and just in anguish
about what he was doing to those kids.
Parents like this, will, sadly, never vanish from the earth.
Robert Krawitz wrote: it.
Robert Krawitz
> > However, the average adult should be capable, over time, of achieving
> > what the average child could.
>
> Not true. Disproved in research and in practical experience.
I played violin for a few years as a child (6th-8th grade,
approximately, so that was about 12-14 years of age), and then quit
because of a teacher I didn't like (very demanding person). I found
when I tried playing violin (and then switching to a much more natural
instrument for me, the viola) that my hands remembered quite a lot,
even after 10 years without playing. Interestingly enough, at least
in some ways I very quickly surpassed what I could do as a child,
probably because of the increased mental discipline that comes about
from being an adult. I do need to start playing again, though. I've
barely played at all for the past 18 months because of other stuff
going on and the orchestra I was in disbanding.
I have no conscious memories of my early days playing violin.
Certainly if I try to break down the various physical motions and
thought processes that go into playing even a simple open string it's
intellectually quite complex, and when I've watched adults who have
never played an instrument before try to play my viola it's very
apparent that the motor skills are nontrivial. Yet after 10 years off
I had no trouble playing a scale immediately. My intonation may have
been way off for a while, but the actual mental and physical
processing required to play a simple scale was right there for me.
That leads me to a[n only] partially off-topic question here. My
niece, who's about 7, loves the sound of the clarinet and would like
to try it. My sister and her husband seem to have no real interest in
music. My wife and I would like to find some way of helping my niece
play. It's a bit more complicated living 200 miles from them. Just
paying for a year's rental of a clarinet wouldn't be enough, because
there's the whole issue of lessons and all. Any suggestions? My
sister isn't hostile to the idea; she's just too busy to really do
much about it, and my parents (my father, in particular, would like to
help out) have no musical training at all. If it helps in any
specific way, my sister lives in New Rochelle, NY.
(Incidentally, my sister, who's a few years younger than me, first
started to play violin, and it was about 6 months later that I took an
interest as a result of her playing. So it's a bit ironic that she
has lost interest.)
Betsy Stocksdale
town I'd also encourage your niece to listen to Klezmer music, which must
also abound in NYC! But other than that, I have no contacts. Good luck.
Robert Krawitz wrote:
> Betsy Stocksdale <bat...@erols.com> writes:
>
> > > However, the average adult should be capable, over time, of achieving
> > > what the average child could.
> >
> > Not true. Disproved in research and in practical experience.
>
DGoree
required certification of his teachers in Japan, no such system was set up
in America. He believed that we would do fine without it, but he was
wrong. Certification ("recognition" certificates, if I understand it
correctly) is in the works, and has been for about 10 years, but it appears
it will come to fruition this year.>>
Yes, I would say that it is caveat emptor when it comes to Suzuki instruction
in the U.S. I had the privilege of auditing a few teacher-training classes at
a well-known Suzuki institute a few years ago. The teacher trainer was
excellent, and it was quite instructive for me. I was, however, appalled at
the general level of violin playing among the students. I would say that
besides myself, there was really only one other violinist there who was
proficient and two or three others that I would describe as competent. Of
course, the ability to work well with young children is a completely separate
thing from playing level and absolutely as necessary, but I do believe that a
teacher should be able to model correct posture, intonation and rhythm for even
the youngest students. And of course, many of Suzuki's most important ideas
receive short shrift here--observing the lessons of other students before and
after the child's own lessons, for example. Many of Suzuki's ideas came out of
his own Japanese culture and do not necessarily translate easily to American
culture. I say this as a working mother myself who does not have the time to
spend all afternoon with my children listening to other children's violin
lessons.
<<However, I have seen a good number of vocal posts on this list (and others)
of adult beginners who clearly don't know how much there is to learn. Or,
as an adult beginner (with classical music, and on their first instrument)
that they may never achieve some of these things, no matter how hard they
try (see below). It was to this that I was referring.>>
I teach part-time at a public university, and most of my students are studying
music education. A couple of them never had private lessons before college
age. They are certainly easier to teach than eight- year olds but while they
work very hard, have much longer attention spans (of course) than children and
obviously far more developed verbal skills as well, there are some subtle
physical skills which they just do not seem to be able to learn. This is not
to say that it is a waste of time. Personally I think they could make
excellent classroom strings teachers, because they will be able to relate
better to the difficulties faced by the "average" student than might a teacher
who never had to struggle with technique.
<<No, but playing music, whether or not you are "musical" (and here is a
matter for another great debate--everyone possesses potential musicality if
addressed early enough) is a totally different experience than
"appreciating" it. It affects the brain quite differently, and positively.
Most ground-breaking educators, going back to Plato, have recognized the
importance of this.>>
I just thought this was so well said, it deserved repeating.
<<You are speaking of the research of Edwin Gordon. He has been able to prove
that the potential musicality that anyone is born with starts to wither
after age nine if formal instruction is not given. But his research also
indicates that there is another cut-off earlier, at around age 3-4. Other
research indicates this as well. And Gordon has also found that the
"potential" decreases with every year up to age 9. It is complicated stuff,
but worth looking at. I've not given it sufficient explanation here.>>
I have also read of at least one study which indicates an age cut-off of around
seven. There are always exceptions but in my experience they are rare. My
symphony plays a series of Sunday-afternoon classical concerts aimed at
families with children; these are shorter concerts with lots of explanation and
a Q & A session with kids in the audience. We are frequently asked at which
age we all began to study, who started studying the youngest, or variants of
the same question. With the notable exception of the associate concertmaster
who began at age 12 (though he came from a musical family and was exposed to
music much earlier) and a few violinists who began around age 10, the great
majority of the violinists in the orchestra began studying the violin between
the ages of four and seven.
Mary Ellen
amb...@my-deja.com
Betsy Stocksdale <bat...@erols.com> wrote:
>> However, the average adult should be capable, over time, of achieving
>> what the average child could.
>
> Not true. Disproved in research and in practical experience.
I'm talking about "average", here, which is unlikely to mean the maximum
potential that either the child or adult could achieve.
For whatever reason -- whether it's a lack of sufficient natural
talent, motivation, practice time, or teaching -- the vast majority of
children who learn the violin will never reach the point where they
can play Paganini Caprices... or even the Mendelssohn concerto. However,
most who stick with it become adept enough that they can play in a
community orchestra and play chamber music.
Adults who put in the time and effort can also reach the point where
they can play in a community orchestra and play chamber music. The
adult will need more motivation to cram music into his life, of course.
Take two people at age 50 who have "average skill" and I'd bet one
would be hard-pressed to tell which one started as a 30-year-old adult
and which one started as a child.
(Perhaps I'm not really contradicting what you write later in your
post, regarding mediocre players.)
> No, but playing music, whether or not you are "musical" (and here is a
> matter for another great debate--everyone possesses potential
> musicality if addressed early enough) is a totally different
> experience than "appreciating" it. It affects the brain quite
> differently, and positively.
I would agree here, but given that even children have limited time,
why not focus their attention on their best talents and things that
they love?
>> I wish heartily that my parents had not forced me to play the piano
>> (they finally let me quit after six years and a lot of conflict and
>> unnecessary heartache),
>
> Ah, but you may have felt differently if you had persisted into
> college.
I don't think so. I played the piano during college because I had to;
a reasonable level of proficiency was required for music students. It
wasn't fun then, either. I suspect there are only a handful of
instruments that I would enjoy playing. Piano is not one of them. :)
I would suspect that it has a lot to do with one's taste in sound and
physical action.
> But, I do think it is OK to quit if all the right signs are there,
> provided the parent insists that another instrument be studied in
> place of quitting. If a child is old enough to really know their
> own mind, a parent should be sensitive to their wishes.
I live in Silicon Valley, where many bright, accomplished parents lavish
love, attention, and money on their children, and attempt to afford them
every opportunity to develop their minds and bodies.
This has resulted in children who do far too many things for the amount
of time they have available. Many of these children take music lessons
for no other reason than their parents believe that It's Good For Them.
It might be, but they have inadequate time to practice, and limited
(or no) interest; I suspect the actual benefits of this half-hearted
way of going about it are highly limited or non-existent. A commitment
of a minimum of half an hour of practice time each day, for a school-age
child, is almost certainly necessary to make reasonable progress.
Young chlidren should be exposed to as many things as possible, in the
hopes that they'll discover the couple of things that they really like.
Then they should be allowed to pursue just those things with the
intensity necessary to really do them well. Music might not be
one of those things.
amb...@my-deja.com
DGoree <dgo...@aol.com> wrote:
> I had the privilege of auditing a few teacher-training classes at a
> well-known Suzuki institute a few years ago. The teacher trainer was
> excellent, and it was quite instructive for me. I was, however,
> appalled at the general level of violin playing among the students.
> I would say that besides myself, there was really only one other
> violinist there who was proficient and two or three others that I
> would describe as competent.
Don't you find that this is true in the general violin-teaching
population, as well, though?
Sadly, in addition to those who teach because they love it, there are
lots of teachers for whom this is the only living they can make with
their musical skills (or is a crucial supplement to a limited
performing income). This seems especially true of those with music
education rather than performance degrees. And if their teaching
schedule keeps them from putting in practice time themselves, their
playing skills detioriorate slowly over time, making the matter
worse. (Hopefully this is in part made up for by increasing competence
at the art of teaching.)
Out of curiousity, what would you call "proficient" vs. "competent"?
vs. "not competent"?
> I teach part-time at a public university, and most of my students
> are studying music education. A couple of them never had private
> lessons before college age. They are certainly easier to teach than
> eight- year olds but while they work very hard, have much longer
> attention spans (of course) than children and obviously far more
> developed verbal skills as well, there are some subtle physical
> skills which they just do not seem to be able to learn.
This is very interesting. Which physical skills in particular?
Warren Porter
>
> Her real passion was theatre. Her father insisted that she attend
> music camps all summer, and forbade her from acting. So she went to a
> music camp, and found they had a drama production, and played the lead
> part. Reportedly, her father was furious. Apparently the real
> problem is that he wanted to be a musician but didn't have the
> talent. Since she did have some talent, he wanted to live what he
> wanted vicariously through her.
Sounds like Neil's dad in the movie, "Dead Poets Society". I hope
her story had a better outcome than the movie.
Lisa
> Exactly. Unfortunately, Dr. Suzuki was an idealist, and although he
> required certification of his teachers in Japan, no such system was set up
> in America. He believed that we would do fine without it, but he was
> wrong. Certification ("recognition" certificates, if I understand it
> correctly) is in the works, and has been for about 10 years, but it
appears
> it will come to fruition this year.
are geared to the violin teacher and leaves out the viola teachers. This
means that there are few viola students who can take lessons with a violist
who uses Suzuki method. I know my daughters' teacher was primarily a violin
teacher although fortunately for us viola was her love. Her program though
had far more violin students. 6 viola to at least 50 violin and only 4 of
them were viola only. That said, the teacher is excellent and provided many
wonderful opportunities for my daughters. She was one of the leaders in our
local Suzuki group and help make sure that there were excellent guest
teachers for the violists at the workshops.
Interestingly, of the violists at FIU where my oldest attends, 2 of the 8
violists were her students when they started.
David Kaye
" [....] My wife and I would like to find some way of helping my niece
" play. It's a bit more complicated living 200 miles from them. Just
" paying for a year's rental of a clarinet wouldn't be enough, because
" there's the whole issue of lessons and all. Any suggestions?
Having played the clarinet, I'd recommend a lesson or two to at least get
her started. If she's got the drive she can learn a lot by herself. But,
since the most important part is the embouchure (the way the mouth meets
the mouthpiece) -- http://www.morsax.com/embouchure.html -- and it might
be necessary to have a lesson or two to get that part right.
After that there are some good clarinet method books out there. I forget
the on I have, but it (like many new ones) comes with a CD which
demonstrates the sound the player should be getting.
--
(C) 2000 3 U.S. farmers a year die
David Kaye of manure pit asphyxiation.
David Kaye
" I imagine there are a wealth of clarinet teachers in NY, being such a musical
" town I'd also encourage your niece to listen to Klezmer music, which must
" also abound in NYC! But other than that, I have no contacts. Good luck.
The Klezmatics, based in NYC, are one of the premiere klezmer bands in
America. I've seen them live, and they are indeed awesome. They're more
of a klezmer-rock band.
For listening to some totally mind-blowing examples of klezmer clarinet, I
recommend any CD you can get your hands on that features either Naftule
Brandwein (the father of klezmer clarinet) or Dave Tarras. Both recorded
in the 1920s to the 40s, and there are many CDs with their stuff.
Listening to their stuff makes one wonder what was so hot about Benny
Goodman and Pete Fountain. Seriously.
--
(C) 2000 Bill Cosby once said his comedic influence was
David Kaye Tim Moore of the "Amos 'n' Andy" TV show
Robert Krawitz
> Robert Krawitz wrote the quoted material below:
>
> " [....] My wife and I would like to find some way of helping my niece
> " play. It's a bit more complicated living 200 miles from them. Just
> " paying for a year's rental of a clarinet wouldn't be enough, because
> " there's the whole issue of lessons and all. Any suggestions?
>
> Having played the clarinet, I'd recommend a lesson or two to at least get
> her started. If she's got the drive she can learn a lot by herself. But,
> since the most important part is the embouchure (the way the mouth meets
> the mouthpiece) -- http://www.morsax.com/embouchure.html -- and it might
> be necessary to have a lesson or two to get that part right.
That's very helpful. Thanks. BTW, I suspect that they'll be quite
receptive to klezmer.
Ian & Laurel MacCulloch
while!
Some random thoughts of my own:
- Don't assume he's necessarily bored of Twinkle. Kids that age love to do
what they're able to do, and love to do things repetitively - I don't know how
many times my friends' kids watch the Pokemon video etc.! Your son MAY be
bored; or he may be picking up on an adult's idea of what he's supposed to be
bored of. (make sense?)
- The book "The Right Instrument for Your Child" is very good, as mentioned
before; however it seems a little strict on its rules. For example, it says
that a child who likes to put or keep things in his mouth may be an excellent
candidate for clarinet or other wind instrument. Well, I loved my pacifier
right up till primary school age, and yet I never did gravitate toward any wind
instruments. So do take all the factors into consideration, and take the book
with a grain of salt; it's a guideline, not a rule book.
- How does your child express his "hatred"? Does he say "I hate this"? Or
does he whine because he'd just rather be out playing street hockey? You know
your child better than we do; keep in mind that kids can't articulate as well.
"I hate practising" could mean "I'm trying to establish my identity here, you
parents are nice to have around but quit cramping my style", or it could mean
"My neck is stiff and my elbow hurts, and I'm clenching my jaw too hard so my
head aches".
- I forget what my next point was going to be! :-)
Bye
Laurel
David Kaye
" [....] Reportedly, her father was furious. Apparently the real
" problem is that he wanted to be a musician but didn't have the
" talent. Since she did have some talent, he wanted to live what he
" wanted vicariously through her.
Exactly the problem I pointed out in my original response (in which it's
doubtful the original poster sees herself). Too many parents are trying
to correct their failures by living their passions through their
kids. This is just plain wrong.
If the woman wants to play violin, she should start playing *now*, as I
did at age 42. There is no time like the present to do what you want to
do. But force this on a kid? That's cruelty.
--
(C) 2000 [tagline removed for cleaning]
David Kaye
David E Allen
: Exactly the problem I pointed out in my original response (in which it's
: doubtful the original poster sees herself). Too many parents are trying
: to correct their failures by living their passions through their
: kids. This is just plain wrong.
Yes, and we ARE aware this can be a problem.
Another problem is assuming that this poster is doing the same thing without
knowing a thing about this person, or this child.
You're reminding me of the McCarthy era, where the exponential, paranoid
reaction to one "evil" created an evil much more horrible. Time to quit
seeing commies behind every parent!
: If the woman wants to play violin, she should start playing *now*, as I
: did at age 42. There is no time like the present to do what you want to
: do. But force this on a kid? That's cruelty.
Have you overlooked the fact that this mother decided long ago to drop the
violin lessons for her son?
dave allen, colorado springs
David Kaye
" Have you overlooked the fact that this mother decided long ago to drop the
" violin lessons for her son?
Have you overlooked that she intends for *all* her kids to play the
violin?
--
(C) 2000 "Conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the
David Kaye essentials of patriotism." - Emma Goldman
RSW
double this time when he returns to the violin at a later age (say 9 or 10)
and not have to suffer through those miserable squeeks and sounds coming out
of a much too small instrument. Paganini studied the mandolin for 2-3 years
prior to his first lessons on the violin. I also proceeded in this fashion
and it was an enormous advantage (still is).
RW
"Martha" <craig...@nospam.mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8q8hco$nek$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...
> My son, age 4 1/2 is beginning his second year of Suzuki violin. He can
> pretty much play Twinkle, though not well. He absolutely hates it. It
has
> become quite a battle around our house. His teacher's thought is that if
I
> let him quit, then "he's won," and as such, I should just keep trying
> different things - currently she spends half his weekly lesson with him
and
> half with me - hoping if he sees me learning as well, it will spark his
> interest.
>
> We've spent $500 for a violin, so obviously, we'd like him (and two
younger
> siblings) to use it, but at this point, I'm thinking I should just throw
in
> the towel. I know how important music lessons are, but should I just give
> it up and only pursue it if at some point he expresses an interest? Any
> thoughts would be greatly appreciated. I'm really afraid if I force him
to
> continue, he is really, really going to hate it and never have an interest
> in music at all.
>
> Thanks for any thoughts,
> Martha
>
>
David Wardley
>I'm really afraid if I force him
> to
> > continue, he is really, really going to hate it and never
have an interest
> > in music at all.
> >
> > Thanks for any thoughts,
> > Martha
> >
That fear I'm sure is well founded. The child may have no
inherent musical talent or interest, or it may simply not have
developed. The best you can do is expose the child to your music
which hopefully brings about happiness and enjoyment which the
child sees or senses. When the child is ready to join in it will
be very apparent imo, and it can happen almost any age! Then is
the time to make facilities available. You will have to accept
that the child just may not have your musical genetics.
You can drive a horse to water, 'can't make it drink!
DW
tevyeswife
<dwar...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>snip
>>I'm really afraid if I force him
>> to
>> > continue, he is really, really going to hate it and never
>have an interest
>> > in music at all.
>> >
>> > Thanks for any thoughts,
>> > Martha
>> >
>
I think you may need a new teacher...so much depends on how the music
is presented.
I fought with mine for several years, one eventually stopped and never
started again. The other, after maybe five years in Suzuki, stopped
for a while...I couldn't stand forcing her to practice. But when
school orchestra came up and she had the chance to do it again, she
started and LOVED it. She has been playing cello for years now and
just made first chair All-Region orchestra. She will go to college on
a music scholarship.
So go figure. If the child truly hates music, it's not worth it to
ruin your relationship over something that, in the end, is supposed to
bring joy to his life.
abby
GordonMatt
while we still have our battles over practice, I think his new teacher who uses
games to make it fun and also doesn't take any whining from him is helping a
great deal.He has greatly improved his sound and technique and is looking
forward to playing in his elementary school orchestra. Do I have ulterior
motives? Yes, I do. I want my son to like and play classical music and I want
him to be the 4th generation in my family to play violin. By the way, after 28
years of not playing, I'm working on Suzuki books 4-5.
David Kaye
" [....] Do I have ulterior
" motives? Yes, I do. I want my son to like and play classical music and I want
" him to be the 4th generation in my family to play violin.
And what if he doesn't want to do this? Why must a child be forced to
carry the burden of a parent's desire to have an unbroken chain of violin
players? Why is a silly tradition more important than your child's
happiness? I pity your poor son. Seriously.
--
(c) 2000 Visit the BERNAL HEIGHTS Neighborhood Yahoo Club!
David Kaye http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/bernalheights
Karen Rile
wrote on 10/8/00 1:56 PM:
> GordonMatt wrote the quoted material below:
>
> " [....] Do I have ulterior
> " motives? Yes, I do. I want my son to like and play classical music and I
> want
> " him to be the 4th generation in my family to play violin.
>
> And what if he doesn't want to do this? Why must a child be forced to
> carry the burden of a parent's desire to have an unbroken chain of violin
> players? Why is a silly tradition more important than your child's
> happiness? I pity your poor son. Seriously.
>
As a parent (4X over) I can tell you that children respond to their
environments. If a child grows up in a family where music (or literature, or
chair caning, or baseball) is loved, that child will likely quicken to the
music around him.
There's plenty of time in adolescence for rebellion. But young kids really
do want to join in the family chorus.
I think you're taking this dad's remarks a tad too literally. Chances are
this boy will play and like classical music (at least until adolescence, and
perhaps even then, and after.)
Karen
--
Genius is the gold in the mine, talent is the miner who works and brings it
out. -Lady Marguerite Blessington (1789-1849)
David Kaye
" As a parent (4X over) I can tell you that children respond to their
" environments. If a child grows up in a family where music (or literature, or
" chair caning, or baseball) is loved, that child will likely quicken to the
" music around him.
But, the father appeared to be more concerned about keeping up a
"tradition" of having 4 generations of violinists in the family. The
woman who started this thread seemed to be more concerned with the fact
that spent $500 on a violin. Where are these people's heads?
" There's plenty of time in adolescence for rebellion. But young kids really
" do want to join in the family chorus.
Well, yes and no. Take my teacher. I've mentioned him before. He grew
up around music; his family had a country band. *Nobody* encouraged him
to take up the violin; in fact, sometimes his parents were so annoyed at
his practicing that they tried to dissuade him from practicing! Yet, he
played violin (from age 8) because he *wanted* to do it. He's been
teaching since age 13 or something.
jtay...@nospam.mail.orion.org
in 28 years? Not even a tradition, then is it?
--
Volkswagens dont leak oil.....they mark their territory
jtay...@nospam.mail.orion.org
| As a parent (4X over) I can tell you that children respond to their
| environments. If a child grows up in a family where music (or literature, or
| chair caning, or baseball) is loved, that child will likely quicken to the
| music around him.
So they should be FORCED or ALLOWED to play? Big BIG difference to me! Two
people in this thread dont seem to think so...
| There's plenty of time in adolescence for rebellion. But young kids really
| do want to join in the family chorus.
On a volenteer basis?
| I think you're taking this dad's remarks a tad too literally. Chances are
| this boy will play and like classical music (at least until adolescence, and
| perhaps even then, and after.)
for a 4 1/2 year old, unless he's really happy with it, it seems TOO YOUNG
to me to start lessons, IMVHO.
| Karen
| --
| Genius is the gold in the mine, talent is the miner who works and brings it
| out. -Lady Marguerite Blessington (1789-1849)
"Live free or Die"
JT
Peter Schug
wrote on 10/8/00 1:56 PM:
> GordonMatt wrote the quoted material below:
>
> " [....] Do I have ulterior
> " motives? Yes, I do. I want my son to like and play classical music and I
> want
> " him to be the 4th generation in my family to play violin.
>
> And what if he doesn't want to do this? Why must a child be forced to
> carry the burden of a parent's desire to have an unbroken chain of violin
> players? Why is a silly tradition more important than your child's
> happiness? I pity your poor son. Seriously.
>
You will note that this man gave up playing for something like twenty-eight
years, which to me means that he didn't like it all that much himself. I
can't understand his motive.
Pete
--
Check out my fiddle building web site
http://home.att.net/~PeteSchug/
Updated July 23, 2000
