Adjusters - another in a series on tonal adjustements, Listen at the end!
Beach Runner
decisions, decide what
will be their best choice.
As we know, because the bass top moves so much between seasons, and
that bass players tend to play a wide variety of music, we tend to have
adjustable bridges. We also have the greatest variety in our
instruments and there's more freedom to make changes. In previouis
years bass players had to have a summer and winter bridge. While still
common in Europe,
on this side of the pond it's very rare.
Here was someone's thesis comparing the materials used for adjusters on
a string bass.
The most logical thing would be to assume you'd prefer a bridge without
adjusters. Certainly
read the mathematical and sound analysis, and you'll come to your own
conclussions. Generally, people decide they want adjusters, but decide
intellectually they want whatever
is closest to "massive bridge"
Then, if possible, get someone to play the musical comparision at the
bottom for you,
with some type of blindfold test. See which you *really* like. This
should be interesting
to cello players as well, as more of them are using adjusters. In fact,
you might after
hearing the samples be very intersted in what they might do for your
beastie.
http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/english/dbb/dbb.htm#conclusions
My preference was not what I thought it would be. What are yours?
Beach Runner
Did anyone try this?
Chris Kuether
>>
>>http://iwk.mdw.ac.at/Forschung/english/dbb/dbb.htm#conclusions
>>
>>My preference was not what I thought it would be. What are yours?
>
>
> Did anyone try this?
>
Yes, I tried it at the lab where I've [low quality] audio on the 'puter.
But I didn't spend a lot of time.
I could perceive some differences of timbre, but the playing of only a
single note was not a very good way to compare the comments about
different response in different registers.
The conclusion I formed was yes the adjusters probably make a difference
but there are so many uncontrolled variables I'm unwilling to choose
one. Specifically each trial had a different bridge, so we're putting
apples up to oranges...
What was your preference?
Chris
Beach Runner
They used the same type of bridge, same specs, same player, same
position
of the instrument, and the tests were for arco and pizz at an extensive
range.
>
> What was your preference?
I thought I would prefer the massive (traditional) bridge, but when
listening, I prefered
the lightweight aluminum and the maple bridge. What I thought I'd
like versus what I heard were day and night. The aluminun adjusters
just opened the bass up.
I have the Kolstein adjusters on my bass, and they add a great
ingredient, they are a very oily, self lubricating bridge. They are
also a very light wood, a lot like aluminum.
There is a great new book by Trager on setting up and improving basses
that is making the rounds. He highly recommends aluminum bridges. It
is generally observed by American bass players that after installing
Aluminum adjusters, the bass got louder and more responsive.
Traeger also recommended the maple or hickory end pin, and when I heard
them A/B'd the difference was also dramatic.
Next we want to see the effects of tuning the tail piece and neck as
recommended.
It also invites the question for experimentation on all string
instruments. What would happen if expertly installed aluminum
adjusters were added to a violin bridge, would it
open up?
Now,
I'm know Barrie Kolstein makes adjustable bridges for cellos, and I'm
wondering
if any cello players here have tried them. They are becoming
increasingly popular.
>
> Chris
Chris Kuether
I've ordered the Traeger book -- it may even arrive yet today..
I'm still in process of optimizing the setup on my Christopher 7/8
Busetto hybrid. I'm contemplating to increase the crown on the
fingerboard as well as to lower the action. [There was an earlier
thread, now 'expired' betw me and Roland -- we were hoping you'd chime
in --]
The bridge under discussion is generic maple with black aluminum
adjusters. I've always felt that the adjusters were sub-optimum
acoustically and useful mostly to get the proper bridge height
determined. After all, the vibrations have to be transmitted by just
the contact area of the threads -- the rest is just guidance for the
assembly. Surely non-adjusting bridges must sound better...
My plan, after finally determining the bridge shape I want, is to
digitize the thing and try machining a replicant from aluminum, or
perhaps by SLS, but without any adjusters.
And I've heard that bassists need a 'summer' bridge and a 'winter'
version because of swelling & shrinking of the instrument with the
weather. I've only had my Christopher for a year now, but haven't seen
any of that action.
Anyway, it's all an experiment...
Chris
[I don't see much practicality for adjustable violin bridges -- there's
just not enough material there to put threads...]
[And I'd like to hear some discussion of tuning the tailpiece a la
MikePecanicMusic. He gives no theoretic discussion.]
Beach Runner
>
> The bridge under discussion is generic maple with black aluminum
> adjusters. I've always felt that the adjusters were sub-optimum
> acoustically and useful mostly to get the proper bridge height
> determined. After all, the vibrations have to be transmitted by just
> the contact area of the threads -- the rest is just guidance for the
> assembly. Surely non-adjusting bridges must sound better...
with either aluminum, brass or Kolstein adjusters added.
The aluminum and Kolstein bridges really opened up the sound. The
aluminum
made it sort of roar, the Kolstein a more mellow sound. I had a bass
where we
added brass tuners, somene then replaced the tuners with aluminum, and
the
improvement (subjective) was dramatic. I've also heard the new French
bridges
with the Carbon Fiber adjusters. I would stay with either Aluminum or
Kolstein.
>
> My plan, after finally determining the bridge shape I want, is to
> digitize the thing and try machining a replicant from aluminum, or
> perhaps by SLS, but without any adjusters.
SLS???
>
> And I've heard that bassists need a 'summer' bridge and a 'winter'
> version because of swelling & shrinking of the instrument with the
> weather. I've only had my Christopher for a year now, but haven't seen
> any of that action.
That depends on your climate control, and how sensative the top is. If
it
doesn't move, it's too thick. Send it up to Barrie Kolstein and let
him
regraduate it, and it will really roar. Are you really satisfied with
it.
I had an old bass that Barrie regraduated. As he said, the back was so
thick you could dance on it. The road was it roared. My current small
bass he restored, and in fact, added wood to the top. A paper thin
breast plate.
>
> Anyway, it's all an experiment...
>
> Chris
>
> [I don't see much practicality for adjustable violin bridges -- there's
> just not enough material there to put threads...]
>
It may not acually be adjustable, just add an aluminum connector. I
suspect
it well worth the experiment. Perhaps a thesis for someone not afraid
to step
outside the box.
> [And I'd like to hear some discussion of tuning the tailpiece a la
> MikePecanicMusic. He gives no theoretic discussion.]
There is a new suggestion to make the bridge as low mass as possible
to free up the vibrations. Rumano Solano is selling his basses with
the low mass tailpieces now. Barrie Kolstein is sometimes offering the
tunable tailpieces, where one tune the bridge to tail piece for each
string.
Another area is bass bars. Barrie Kolstein installed a highly sprung
bass bar
in a bass. Before he did, he sent me to try and hear an actual original
Panorma
owned by a member of the Baltimore Symphony. It had been installed 10
years
previously, and the player raved how it opened up the sound, with fine
structural
integrity.
Now, Rick Desgrange, who is the setup guru in Central and Northen
Florida for
basses and cellos, had kept on his own bass, a ultra low mass bridge.
He
removed all possible extra wood and even drilled up through the feet.
Even
he is installing aluminum adjusters on his personal bass.
Chris Kuether
>> My plan, after finally determining the bridge shape I want, is to
>> digitize the thing and try machining a replicant from aluminum, or
>> perhaps by SLS, but without any adjusters.
>
> SLS???
>
Selective Laser Sintering. An industrial 'prototype' method where a
laser is scanned over the surface of a 'pool' of finely powdered metal,
to fuse the grains in the area of interest. As each layer is completed,
an additional depth of powder is added and the next layer cross section
scanned. When complete, the finished part is simply lifted out of the
bed of unfused powder which falls away. The part then may be finished
by high-temperature baking or permeating with other materials.
> That depends on your climate control, and how sensative the top is.
> If it doesn't move, it's too thick. Send it up to Barrie Kolstein
> and let him regraduate it, and it will really roar. Are you really
> satisfied with it.
I'm as satisfied as one can be for the money invested...
> I had an old bass that Barrie regraduated. As he said, the back was
> so thick you could dance on it. The road was it roared. My current
> small bass he restored, and in fact, added wood to the top. A paper
> thin breast plate.
..'for the money invested'.. Well this IS only a hobby. And Barrie is
in Long Island and Texas isn't. And one day maybe a fiver...
> There is a new suggestion to make the bridge as low mass as possible
> to free up the vibrations. Rumano Solano is selling his basses with
> the low mass tailpieces now. Barrie Kolstein is sometimes offering
> the tunable tailpieces, where one tune the bridge to tail piece for
> each string.
Yes the low-mass bridge seems the correct idea. Do you have more info
about 'tuning' the tailpiece?
Chris
Beach Runner
Chris Kuether wrote:
> Beach Runner wrote:
>
> >> My plan, after finally determining the bridge shape I want, is to
> >> digitize the thing and try machining a replicant from aluminum, or
> >> perhaps by SLS, but without any adjusters.
> >
> > SLS???
> >
> Selective Laser Sintering. An industrial 'prototype' method where a
> laser is scanned over the surface of a 'pool' of finely powdered metal,
> to fuse the grains in the area of interest. As each layer is completed,
> an additional depth of powder is added and the next layer cross section
> scanned. When complete, the finished part is simply lifted out of the
> bed of unfused powder which falls away. The part then may be finished
> by high-temperature baking or permeating with other materials.
Instead of wood? Moses makes bridges and fingerboards of carbon
fiber.
>
> > That depends on your climate control, and how sensative the top is.
> > If it doesn't move, it's too thick. Send it up to Barrie Kolstein
> > and let him regraduate it, and it will really roar. Are you really
> > satisfied with it.
>
> I'm as satisfied as one can be for the money invested...
>
> > I had an old bass that Barrie regraduated. As he said, the back was
> > so thick you could dance on it. The road was it roared. My current
> > small bass he restored, and in fact, added wood to the top. A paper
> > thin breast plate.
>
> ..'for the money invested'.. Well this IS only a hobby. And Barrie is
> in Long Island and Texas isn't. And one day maybe a fiver...
You might well be amazed. I've heard him take basses and absolutely
make them roar. On my little bass, it gave the sound a much more
cultured, rounded sound. Those factory basses just do not have
tuned plates.
It would probably make the bass worth far more than you invested.
>
> > There is a new suggestion to make the bridge as low mass as possible
> > to free up the vibrations. Rumano Solano is selling his basses with
> > the low mass tailpieces now. Barrie Kolstein is sometimes offering
> > the tunable tailpieces, where one tune the bridge to tail piece for
> > each string.
>
> Yes the low-mass bridge seems the correct idea. Do you have more info
> about 'tuning' the tailpiece?
Too opinions. The string from the bridge to the saddle should be a 4th
or a 5th,
depending who you talk to.
>
> Chris