Kids In A Streetband - Need Advice/Long
Cynthia A. Moyer
Hi all!
Not sure if any of you remember my post a month or so back about
my PM who didn't favour kids in the band. I got a lot of great feedback
from a lot of you and the consensus was basically 'if you don't have
younger recruits, your band dies'. Being a mother, I love kids and also
love to teach this got me to thinking.
At our last band practice (our PM was in good humour), I took a big
breath and broached the subject again. I suggested that we should
play at schools and advertise for younger students. Well, again my
PM commented that in his experience kids don't stick it out they stay
for a couple of years and then leave, meanwhile the band has uniformed
them a couple of times at great expense to the band. I argued that even
if they don't stick around they've learned how to play the GHB, been
exposed to music and had good fun for a couple of years. I also commented
that the kids could particpate in fund raising to help offset the cost of
dressing them. My PM's last comment was that our recruits should be
adults who are in their 30's+ who will commit and are financially stable.
I got the feeling that most of the other band members agreed that
recruiting kids would be a good idea so I haven't given up on the idea totally.
I had a few ideas that I thought I would run past the NG before proposing
to the band. Here they are, please feel free to add other suggestions:
o play at schools, cubs/scouts/girl guides and also advertise to recruit kids.
Would introduce the GHB and drumming to kids who may not have been
exposed to them previously. Could have a 'learn and play' time afterward
where kids could come and see the instruments up close. Could also
give a short history on the GHB and bands in general. Maybe let them
try to blow them (with our help of course), or drum.
o offer lessons free of charge in a group atmosphere with one on one if
needed. Could charge $5/lesson with the money held in trust to go
toward first set of pipes and/or nonrefundable if quits before pipes are
bought.
o kids could march as part of the colour guard until are able to play GHB
or drum to prevent them from losing interest too quickly.
o kids could have different uniform ie. black pants, white shirt etc.. This would
be less expensive than a full uniform. Once they have mastered drumming
and/or the GHB and are keenly interested then perhaps parents and band
could split the cost of full inform.
o introduce ranks within the band so that kids have something to work
toward.
I know we're not a competition band and some of you may not think
much of us for that reason, but I feel by us introducing this music to
the young we could be doing a service to keeping piping and drumming alive
and thriving. Who knows, we could be cultivating some future competition
players! IMO kids are quick learners and are eager for new
experiences. This is a great way to give kids something to do and
keep them on the streets in a positive way.
Thanks! Any other ideas and comments (other than nasty ones) would be
greatly appreciated.
Eskite
Cynthia A. Moyer <cmo...@huron.net> wrote in article
<01BCEA8C...@ppp15-ts1-wingham.huron.net>...
> Hi all!
>
> Not sure if any of you remember my post a month or so back about
> my PM who didn't favour kids in the band. I got a lot of great feedback
> from a lot of you and the consensus was basically 'if you don't have
> younger recruits, your band dies'.
I'd have to agree. I learned to play in my teens since my high school had
a band. I'd never have learned without this opportunity, I'm quite sure.
It went on to be one of the most important things I did during that time.
We went to Scotland twice, travelled all up and down the East Coast, played
in numerous parades, organized our own Scottish Games and generally had a
great time. Students who graduated from our band went on to form their own
bands and play with some pretty hot organizations, too. Your P/M seems
pretty narrow minded not to encourage younger people to learn to play, if
you ask me.
We solved the uniform problem with a system of hand-me-downs.
Glen...@aol.com
Cynthia, you have some very good ideas about bringing the young people in the
band. Personally, I feel that this is where the future of your band lies.
Yes, they might lose interest but by the same token, you will get some that
will stay and get better. And who's to say that the older members won't lose
interest, get a job transfer, etc.
Our band is a young band, in existence for three years, and we are a
competition band. About half of the band is under 30, most of those are
around 15, and are both pipers and drummers. Most of them compete in solos,
which requires more work on top of the band work, and they are in the prizes
at most games, in fact, we had a couple of Champion Supreme winners and some
very close to the top. The band itself, competing in the Midwest in Grade 4,
had the most wins in the Association. This was NOT a waste of time and
uniforms for these young people.
We attended the 78th Fraser Highlanders concert in Chicago last month. The
Pipe Major was playing the keyboard and had one of his other pipers leading
the band. This person has been winning open solo competitions all summer in
Canada. And he is 17 years old!!
If you can't get your PM sold on the idea of younger people and you have some
backing and someone to teach, try starting on your own. Teach a few and then
take them to a practice and show them off. This may change his mind.
Good luck in this.
Dorothy Wilson, Secretary/Pipe Sergeant
Glendaloch Pipe Band
Kentwood, Mi
(Check out our web page at <A HREF="www.grfn.org/~mish/glendaloch.html">Glend
aloch</A> )
ALIXGUNN
>PM commented that in his experience kids don't stick it out they stay for a
couple of years and then leave, meanwhile the band has uniformed them a couple
of times at great expense to the band. I argued that even if they don't stick
around they've learned how to play the GHB, been exposed to music and had good
fun for a couple of years. I also commented that the kids could particpate in
fund raising to help offset the cost of dressing them. My PM's last comment
was that our recruits should be adults who are in their 30's+ who will commit
and are financially stable.<
the pipers was 14-16 at the time. The band was fairly new, and had already
gone through a rift in their original membership. The original band rule was
no females, and no young men under 25. Luckily the P/M decided that the band
wouldn't survive if these
rules weren't changed.
Yes, you don't always keep your learners. Things happen - they didn't
realize it would be so much work, or take so much time. Their other
interests/education/jobs/family obligations conflicted.
They lost interest........These things happen - and NOT just to kids.
You don't need full uniforms to stick a band on the street. For years we
paraded/competed in kilts, shirtsleeves and ties. The band owned the drums,
but pipes were always a personal expense.
The problem with restricting your recruitment to just adults is that
sometimes they are past their "prime". I always felt that "If only I'd started
younger (that 14). I could have been REALLY good by now".
Richard Mao
Boy, Cynthia, I know I am swimming against the tide on this one!
I paraphrase: So you and (you felt) "most of the other band members
agreed that recruiting kids would be a good ideaI had a few
ideas.before proposing to the band"
Do I gather correctly from your posting that you intend to make
proposals to the band and perhaps "make" your pipe major and the
minority of the band go along by "tyranny of the majority"? Do you think
anyone would support the pipe majorare you willing to risk schism? Does
your pipe band operate by majority ruleby consensusby pipe major's
autocratic rule?
If you do make a proposalmay I suggest you present both pros and cons,
acknowledging that you are anticipating the potential problems as well
as the desired benefits.
Background:
I am the pipe major of a street band, in business since 1985was one of
the founding members, have been pipe major for about five years (the
third). Our band is in a situation similar to yours, Cynthia. (we
currently have twelve pipers and seven drummers).
I teach pipes (14 students currently active) and several of my students,
some youngsters, have joined the band when they were ready
(psychologically and technically). We invited them to practice with the
band long before their joiningwe got an idea of their
stick-to-it-tiviness (is there a "proper" spelling for this?), they got
an idea of what we do, how well they have to play, how much equipment
would cost.
We invited parents to come to practiceswe invited parents and performer
to attend our gigs, so they knew what level of involvement was expected
if they didn't ever come..we got an idea there would be troubleSo in
terms of actions speaking louder than wordswe encourage younger pipers
in our street band.
Having said that, may I submit some ideas on what might work and might
not?
Issue 1: Free lessons are valued by children and parents for as much as
they paid for it. Charge a reasonable feethe parents will pay and
encourage the kid to practice. Remember the parents will influence the
kid every daymuch more than a teacher who sees the kid only one hour or
less a week. (Earlier in my career, I naively started with two students
with free lessons, and practice chanters for $10 they dropped out after
a couple of monthsneither would even sell me back their chanters. Never
again.)
Issue 2: Play at schools, scout meetingsDo you have qualified willing
people to do this? By qualified I mean: pipers who play well enough to
make friends for the pipes; drummers who will go to the schools? What do
your members do for a livingcan they spare time to present programs
during the day?.over and over and over again?.
Will you have a prepared program, or just unorganized enthusiasmcan you
tell the schools and teachers what you will be doing and teaching during
the program?
(My experience the teachers want you as part of a multicultural
learning unitso you should also be prepared to talk about Scotland,
Scottish culture, Scottish history, Scottish attire (you had intended to
do these presentations fully uniformed, didn't you?)not a negative, but
be prepared.)
Do your presenters have good communications skills, are they comfortable
with public speaking. Do you risk burning them out, doing this and
losing them from the band?
Issue 3: Group lessons for kids are a logistical nightmare, given
parents schedules, and other competing activities for the kid (soccer,
choir, homework)and it is hard for them to concentrate effectively when
they are bouncing off of other kids. Further, I have found every kid to
be different and each requiring their own approach from their teacher.
If the kid is seriousone-on-one tuition is the only effective way. Do
you have qualified teachers who have sufficient time.
Issue 4: kids as part of color guardkids have simpler uniformsyup,
both work.
But I will interject hereour band members feel strongly that neither
our band or our band members serve in loco parentis for the kids.
Parents can not simply drop a kid off at a band gig (parade, festival,
whatever) and expect either band or members to take responsibility for
the kidbuy them food and snackskeep them out of trouble at a festival,
etc. The parents must be there. The band can not afford the liability.
Issue 5: Issue ranks within the band so that the kids have something to
work toward: We haven't tried this, but my thoughts are: The kid should
be feeling progress because he or she is learning progressively
challenging music from the band's teacher (you had thought to keep on
teaching the kid once the kid joined the band, didn't you?you said you
would be doing a service to piping and perhaps cultivating some future
competition players!)
What would the adults, keystone members of your band, feel as youngsters
got made pipe corporal, pipe sergeant, passing them by? You are a
volunteer band, not driving members out has to be given some thought
Issue 6: Your P/M commented thatkid's don't stick aroundyupalmost
inevitably going into collegeoften going into high school, as they get
increasingly heavy course loads and into competing social, sports, etc.
activitieskids drop out. The answer is recruit adults and kids. But not
kids at the expense of cultivating the interest of adults. When the pipe
major has more than enough adult members, he or she won't be so antsy
about losing kids when their time comes.
Issue 7: I keep coming back to the parentsyou do realize you have to
sell them, too. They have to want to support their kid and the kid has
to be self-motivated. Make the parents part of the band familyteach
them to play, pipes, snare, tenor, bass, drum major, flag corps, band
parents, band boosters, fund raisers (if you provide equipment and
uniforms free)imagineplaid band candy! Make this happen and they all
will stick with it!
BTWdon't you think by your band's public performances, you are making
friends for the pipes and drums, and encouraging the audience (both
adult and child) to think "that's neat, I'll stick around and see how I
can become part of this"this is how we get a lot of recruits. When we
are given a chance to introduce ourselves, when we hand out band
publicity or brochureswe always emphasize we are willing to teach
pipers and drummers, kids and adults. We have been successful recruiting
both adults and children this way.
Cynthia, I hope you don't consider these nasty comments
Yours in the support of piping
Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( peking...@mao.org )
p.s. I'm new to the newsgroup...so I didn't see the previous posting
p.p.s. Reading the other postings in this thread:
from Ryan Moore: he's the kind you want to recruit! Ryan says the
teacher is important...good technically, motivational (my comments)
from Dorothy Wilson (Glendaloch): have heard the band, nice sound! She
told you the band's success story...encourage her to share the hows.
from Lyle Walker: "..motivation has to come from within..", I agree.
from Royce Lerwick: paraphrase..nobody "recruited" sticks it out...has
elements of truth from the school of hard knocks.
cheers!
Rich Mao
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
DPilg88503
I never realized that some bands furnished pipes to its members, the drums I
understand, but most of the pipers it would seem would be doing some solo work
and all, maybe some paying jobs, just thought it should be the pipers
responsibility to furnish his own pipes...kilt and etc. for that
matter.....Maybe I need to move to a bigger city and get a free set of good
pipes to use.....further north....nahh too cold.
mouldy reed
On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:28:17 -0500, "Cynthia A. Moyer"
<cmo...@huron.net> wrote:
>At our last band practice .... I suggested that we should
>play at schools and advertise for younger students.
i think schools might be a good place to pick up a few experienced
drummers at least, or would have been just after the braveheart movie.
Cynthia A. Moyer
First of all, thanks to all that have jumped in and helped out with your =
valuable advice.
Richard, thanks so much for your valuable info below. I've inserted my =
comments.
----------
From: Richard Mao[SMTP:richa...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 1997 12:14 AM
To: bag...@piobaire.mines.uidaho.edu; cmo...@huron.net
>Subject: Re: Kids In A Streetband - Need Advice/Long
Boy, Cynthia, I know I am swimming against the tide on this one!
I paraphrase: So you and (you felt) "?most of the other band members=20
agreed that recruiting kids would be a good idea?I had a few=20
ideas?.before proposing to the band?"
Do I gather correctly from your posting that you intend to make=20
proposals to the band and perhaps "make" your pipe major and the=20
minority of the band go along by "tyranny of the majority"? Do you think =
anyone would support the pipe major?are you willing to risk schism? Does =
your pipe band operate by majority rule?by consensus?by pipe major's=20
autocratic rule?
C>I had intended to bring it up again publicly at the right time. From =
my business experience I've learned that it's always better to have a =
proposal ready in hand and I had pictured handling it in this formal =
way. And yes, I would have the pros and cons available for discussion.
If you do make a proposal?may I suggest you present both pros and cons,=20
acknowledging that you are anticipating the potential problems as well=20
as the desired benefits.
Background:=20
I am the pipe major of a street band, in business since 1985?was one of=20
the founding members, have been pipe major for about five years (the=20
third). Our band is in a situation similar to yours, Cynthia. (we=20
currently have twelve pipers and seven drummers).
I teach pipes (14 students currently active) and several of my students, =
some youngsters, have joined the band when they were ready=20
(psychologically and technically). We invited them to practice with the=20
band long before their joining?we got an idea of their=20
stick-to-it-tiviness (is there a "proper" spelling for this?),
C>If it isn't, we'll email Websters and have them add it!:-))
they got=20
an idea of what we do, how well they have to play, how much equipment=20
would cost.
We invited parents to come to practices?we invited parents and performer =
to attend our gigs, so they knew what level of involvement was expected? =
if they didn't ever come..we got an idea there would be trouble?So in=20
terms of actions speaking louder than words?we encourage younger pipers=20
in our street band.
C>I like the idea of having parents get involved.
Having said that, may I submit some ideas on what might work and might=20
not?
Issue 1: Free lessons are valued by children and parents for as much as=20
they paid for it. Charge a reasonable fee?the parents will pay? and=20
encourage the kid to practice. Remember the parents will influence the=20
kid every day?much more than a teacher who sees the kid only one hour or =
less a week. (Earlier in my career, I naively started with two students=20
with free lessons, and practice chanters for $10? they dropped out after =
a couple of months?neither would even sell me back their chanters. Never =
again.)
C>I've heard this before. How much per lesson is reasonable? That's a =
crime about the PC's, sorry to hear you had a bad experience.
Issue 2: Play at schools, scout meetings?Do you have qualified willing=20
people to do this? By qualified I mean: pipers who play well enough to=20
make friends for the pipes; drummers who will go to the schools? What do =
your members do for a living?can they spare time to present programs =20
during the day??.over and over and over again?.=20
C>Yes we have qualified people to play and play well enough to make =
friends for both pipes and drums. Two of the players alone combined make =
82 years playing the pipes. Most of the members are retired and could =
afford the time to play.
Will you have a prepared program, or just unorganized enthusiasm?can you =
tell the schools and teachers what you will be doing and teaching during =
the program?=20
C>I would recommend a prepared program and yes I think informing the =
school ahead of time would be a good idea.
(My experience? the teachers want you as part of a multicultural=20
learning unit?so you should also be prepared to talk about Scotland,=20
Scottish culture, Scottish history, Scottish attire (you had intended to =
do these presentations fully uniformed, didn't you?)?not a negative, but =
be prepared.)
C>I've never seen our band sans uniform, I'd bet we'd be dressed.
Do your presenters have good communications skills, are they comfortable =
with public speaking. Do you risk burning them out, doing this and=20
losing them from the band?
C>While I'm not a seasoned piper, I do have scads of public speaking =
experience. I've also had lots of training experience and am a teachers =
aid. I think with a preorganized program I could tackle the public =
speaking part. There's a couple of others in the band including a Fire =
Chief who regularly speaks to kids.
Issue 3: Group lessons for kids are a logistical nightmare, given=20
parents schedules, and other competing activities for the kid (soccer,=20
choir, homework)?and it is hard for them to concentrate effectively when =
they are bouncing off of other kids. Further, I have found every kid to=20
be different and each requiring their own approach from their teacher.=20
If the kid is serious?one-on-one tuition is the only effective way. Do=20
you have qualified teachers who have sufficient time.
C> Not sure about this one. I'd have to see if anyone else would be =
willing to devote time to it. So far, this is the 'birth of an idea' I =
really don't concretely know if anyone at all feels as I do.
Issue 4: kids as part of color guard?kids have simpler uniforms?yup,=20
both work.=20
But I will interject here?our band members feel strongly that neither=20
our band or our band members serve in loco parentis for the kids.=20
Parents can not simply drop a kid off at a band gig (parade, festival,=20
whatever) and expect either band or members to take responsibility for=20
the kid?buy them food and snacks?keep them out of trouble at a festival, =
etc. The parents must be there. The band can not afford the liability.
C>This is a good point and one that I'll be sure to propose. We don't =
want to be babysitters!
Issue 5: Issue ranks within the band so that the kids have something to=20
work toward: We haven't tried this, but my thoughts are: The kid should=20
be feeling progress because he or she is learning progressively=20
challenging music from the band's teacher (you had thought to keep on=20
teaching the kid once the kid joined the band, didn't you??you said you=20
would be doing a service to piping and perhaps cultivating some future=20
competition players!)
What would the adults, keystone members of your band, feel as youngsters =
got made pipe corporal, pipe sergeant, passing them by? You are a=20
volunteer band, not driving members out has to be given some thought
C>True.
Issue 6: Your P/M commented that?kid's don't stick around?yup?almost=20
inevitably going into college?often going into high school, as they get=20
increasingly heavy course loads and into competing social, sports, etc.=20
activities?kids drop out. The answer is recruit adults and kids. But not =
kids at the expense of cultivating the interest of adults. When the pipe =
major has more than enough adult members, he or she won't be so antsy=20
about losing kids when their time comes.
C>Good point.=20
Issue 7: I keep coming back to the parents?you do realize you have to=20
sell them, too. They have to want to support their kid and the kid has=20
to be self-motivated. Make the parents part of the band family?teach=20
them to play, pipes, snare, tenor, bass, drum major, flag corps, band=20
parents, band boosters, fund raisers (if you provide equipment and=20
uniforms free)?imagine?plaid band candy! Make this happen and they all=20
will stick with it!
C>Some more ideas here, thanks!
BTW?don't you think by your band's public performances, you are making=20
friends for the pipes and drums, and encouraging the audience (both=20
adult and child) to think "that's neat, I'll stick around and see how I=20
can become part of this"?this is how we get a lot of recruits. When we=20
are given a chance to introduce ourselves, when we hand out band=20
publicity or brochures?we always emphasize we are willing to teach=20
pipers and drummers, kids and adults. We have been successful recruiting =
both adults and children this way.
C>Trouble is, I'm the youngest piper by far in our band and I'm 36!!! =
>From a public's perspective they must think that you have to be a 6 foot =
grey haired fella to be able to pipe and drum!! I'd like to help to =
change that if I can.
Cynthia, I hope you don't consider these nasty comments?
C>Never crossed my mind. You were helpful and didn't attack me =
personally, I thank you!
Yours in the support of piping?
Richard Mao, The Peking Piper ( peking...@mao.org )=20
p.s. I'm new to the newsgroup...so I didn't see the previous posting
p.p.s. Reading the other postings in this thread:
from Ryan Moore: he's the kind you want to recruit! Ryan says the=20
teacher is important...good technically, motivational (my comments)
from Dorothy Wilson (Glendaloch): have heard the band, nice sound! She=20
told you the band's success story...encourage her to share the hows.
from Lyle Walker: "..motivation has to come from within..", I agree.
from Royce Lerwick: paraphrase..nobody "recruited" sticks it out...has=20
elements of truth from the school of hard knocks.
cheers!=20
JWH...@aol.com
Our band suppplies everything but shoes, shirts, and ties and is far from a
big city band ! Kids are going to grow up sometime and some may actually like
pipes and drums . I wish our group would at least allow them an oppurtunity
to come to practices and get a general idea of what would be required of
them, but we have a 21 yr. min. age . Maybe someday we'll remember we were
all kids at some point.
Jim
Royce Lerwick
At 02:03 AM 11/8/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Royce Lerwick wrote:
> The statistical chance
>> of anyone starting pipes while in their 30's and ever playing
>> themselves out of a wet paper bag is about the same as someone taking
>> up ballet in their 30's and going on to be Prima in some major dance
>> company.
>
>Oh, Poo. Not everyone was fortunate enough to have indulgent parents to
>start them piping at a tender age. Give a little credit to those who
>figured it out for themselves. Jeeze.
>Sue P.
I don't see that your suggestion is in any way conflicting with my
unarguable reality. Naturally, very late starters can typically manage
to get off a decent tune eventually, and some better than that. But
the fact is, anyone who starts any artistic endeavor when out of the
early teens is struggling against the odds.
It's folly to base a student recruitment program exclusively on the
over 30 candidates. Please don't insult either of us by denying that.
If you want credit for saying you beat the odds, sure, some do and if
you're one hear's a big pat on the back. I only know of one other in
my 27 or so years that has started that late and made it into grade 2
solos. Nobody at all higher than that. And that includes about half a
dozen states and the three major piping centers in North America.
Royce
PS--Why do you insult enthusiastic, talented youth by implying they're
simply being driven by "indulgent" parents, when I've taught for free
scores of paupers with disinterested and even antagonistic family
backgrounds? My parents pointed me to my first practice but after that
it's been all me--and we ain't rich.
You must have been thinking of youth hockey.
Royce Lerwick
On 8 Nov 1997 13:11:58 GMT, dpilg...@aol.com (DPilg88503) wrote:
>>Oh, Poo. Not everyone was fortunate enough to have indulgent parents to
>>start them piping at a tender age. Give a little credit to those who
>>figured it out for themselves. Jeeze.
>>Sue P
>
>As one of these over aged begginners, I'm glad there are some people out there
> that think I am not washed up before I even get going good.....
>
>DP
You aren't washed up--you're just dogpaddling.
Royce
Royce Lerwick
On Sat, 08 Nov 1997 08:50:46 -0500, "Hoover, Keith A"
<Hoov...@corning.com> wrote:
>oh well...........not to worry. I didn't start piping til I was a senior
>in high school I'll probably never have enough lifetime left to get that
>good.
Try paying attention in math class next time you're in a highschool.
You'll find that most seniors are in the area of 17-18 years old. The
topic being debated relates to basing a student recruitment operation
on candidates over 30.
Or were you over 30 when you graduated?
Royce
Royce Lerwick
On 6 Nov 1997 22:45:41 GMT, alix...@aol.com (ALIXGUNN) wrote:
> The problem with restricting your recruitment to just adults is that
>sometimes they are past their "prime". I always felt that "If only I'd started
> younger (that 14). I could have been REALLY good by now".
I'd like to second that sentiment. I started at 15 and the very clear
reality is, that around age 8-12 there are some areas of the brain
ready to be developed that lose interest very quickly after that, and
if you miss out, it's an uphill battle. Talk to Dr. Suzuki about
it--don't argue with me.
Royce
petensue
Royce Lerwick wrote:
The statistical chance
> of anyone starting pipes while in their 30's and ever playing
> themselves out of a wet paper bag is about the same as someone taking
> up ballet in their 30's and going on to be Prima in some major dance
> company.
Oh, Poo. Not everyone was fortunate enough to have indulgent parents to
start them piping at a tender age. Give a little credit to those who
figured it out for themselves. Jeeze.
Sue P.
DPilg88503
>Oh, Poo. Not everyone was fortunate enough to have indulgent parents to
>start them piping at a tender age. Give a little credit to those who
>figured it out for themselves. Jeeze.
Hoover, Keith A
AMEN........................!
maybe someday I'll be good enough to be a PM!..........................
course then I'll probably catch that dreaded disease called PM(pipe
major)S. ;-)
oh well...........not to worry. I didn't start piping til I was a senior
in high school I'll probably never have enough lifetime left to get that
good.
> ----------
> From: dpilg...@aol.com[SMTP:dpilg...@aol.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 1997 8:11 AM
> To: bag...@piobaire.mines.uidaho.edu
> Subject: Re: Kids In A Streetband - Need Advice/Long
Harry Newman
Bovine manure! I started to read music and play the pipes when I was 60.
Granted,
I probably will never be exceptionally good but I do play well enough for a
pipe band,
weddings and funerals (no Bar Mitzvahs yet).
I definitely am in favor of the kids, but having watched Royce for a few years,
I decided
this was the time to say that most unusual expression "your wrong Royce."
Harry
> Royce Lerwick wrote:
> >
> > At 02:03 AM 11/8/97 -0800, you wrote:
petensue
Royce Lerwick wrote:
>
> At 02:03 AM 11/8/97 -0800, you wrote:
> >Royce Lerwick wrote:
> > The statistical chance
> >> of anyone starting pipes while in their 30's and ever playing
> >> themselves out of a wet paper bag is about the same as someone taking
> >> up ballet in their 30's and going on to be Prima in some major dance
> >> company.
> >
> >start them piping at a tender age. Give a little credit to those who
> >figured it out for themselves. Jeeze.
>
> I don't see that your suggestion is in any way conflicting with my
> unarguable reality. Naturally, very late starters can typically manage
> to get off a decent tune eventually, and some better than that. But
> the fact is, anyone who starts any artistic endeavor when out of the
> early teens is struggling against the odds.
>
> It's folly to base a student recruitment program exclusively on the
> over 30 candidates. Please don't insult either of us by denying that.
> If you want credit for saying you beat the odds, sure, some do and if
> you're one hear's a big pat on the back. I only know of one other in
> my 27 or so years that has started that late and made it into grade 2
> solos. Nobody at all higher than that. And that includes about half a
> dozen states and the three major piping centers in North America.
>
> Royce
>
> PS--Why do you insult enthusiastic, talented youth by implying they're
> simply being driven by "indulgent" parents, when I've taught for free
> scores of paupers with disinterested and even antagonistic family
> backgrounds? My parents pointed me to my first practice but after that
> it's been all me--and we ain't rich.
>
> You must have been thinking of youth hockey.
Well spoken, point taken. I didn't know that you do that for kids. I
am in support of that 500 percent. No insult, however is meant to
younger pipers. Both my daughters 11&13 have their practice chanters.
They get qualified private instruction from a piper whose family name
you might recognize; and lots of time, money and taxi service from their
long-suffering sainted father (whose mantra has become "Do what you want
to, Dear, you will anyway") and I.
I suppose someday they'll even want pipes of their own...
Heavy sigh,
Sue P.
Marc Fournier
Royce Lerwick wrote:
> But
> the fact is, anyone who starts any artistic endeavor when out of the
> early teens is struggling against the odds.
I agree with most of what is being said regarding the positive value of
youth in bands. I agree the best potential will be with the youth.
Though they will not always be some of the best students. If your
intention is to go mining for talent you'll look almost exclisively to
the youth. However this should not serve to disparage anyone who tops
out in grade three wether they are 19 or 41 years of age. On a personal
level this may represent a substatial achievment and should be
respected.
In the quote you assert that *all* (any) forms of art require the high
degree psychomotor skill wich is more easily achieved in youth. Many
forms of art depend more heavily cognitive development and the synthesis
of abstract concepts and life experiences. By and large youth, and often
young adults, are not yet equiped to deal inteligently with this type of
artistic endeavour. Thus any real development in these venues of
artistic expression will occur only later in life.
You might think I'm being picky but your terms of reference for *any*
artistic endeavour are way too narrow.
Marc Fournier
DPilg88503
>Bovine manure! I started to read music and play the pipes when I was 60.
>Granted,
>I probably will never be exceptionally good but I do play well enough for a
>pipe band,
>weddings and funerals (no Bar Mitzvahs yet).
>I definitely am in favor of the kids, but having watched Royce for a few
>years,
>I decided
>this was the time to say that most unusual expression "your wrong Royce."
Well said...too many think that making it to the top of the competition heap is
all that matters...being better than everyone else...whats the matter with
just being as "good as you can be". I want to try to take piping seriously,
but not to the point to which it ceases to be fun, to where the whole point of
existance is winning competitions.
Ewan A. Macpherson
Royce Lerwick wrote:
I'll third it, although from personal experience starting early (I
started at 10) clearly doesn't guarantee exceptional ability.
A couple of weeks ago I attended a seminar on the results of a study on
brain function in violinists and non-musicians. Those who began
learning before age 10 had disproportionate areas of the auditory and
motor cortex devoted to pitch processing and the fingers of the left
hand (the thumb area was normal). The effects were largest for those
who began learning very young, and petered out by 9 or 10. So starting
early while the brain is still somewhat plastic really influences the
way it wires itself up.
This is not to argue that every band should have a rank of 12 year-olds,
but denying instruction to kids is quite misguided.
--
Ewan Macpherson <macph...@waisman.wisc.edu>
WWW Bagpipe Index & Hot Piping Stuff :
http://www.waisman.wisc.edu/~macpherson/pipeframes.html
DOC2PPR
> all that matters...being better than everyone else...whats the matter with
> just being as "good as you can be". I want to try to take piping seriously,
I agree, my only goal is to be better a year from than I am today, what goes
into that is fine with me, and if it brings me a few rungs up the heap then so
be it. Pipe on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DOC2PPR
Marc Fournier
Royce Lerwick wrote:
>
> At 12:51 AM 11/9/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Royce Lerwick wrote:
> >degree psychomotor skill wich is more easily achieved in youth.
>
Well lets see how this goes. First let me preface this response by
stating that I'm coming from the perspective of two honors' degrees in
Visual Arts, one of which is in the Theory and History of Art. Also an
Bacheloriate of Ed with specializations in General Science and Visual
Arts.
> If you are thinking of
> brush-stroking or key-plinking, or dance or any other even writing or
> poetry, the fact remains that if you cannot use a typewriter or
> keyboard/computer or musical, you are hindered in your craft--however your
> aged wisdom may apply to the art.
>
> > Many
> >forms of art depend more heavily cognitive development and the synthesis
> >of abstract concepts and life experiences.
>
> Let's take writing in any form--the least psycho-motor dependent of all the
> arts.
The poetic gesture of an invalid can be an honest and compelling work of
art. In this case the very lack of psychomotor skills gives the work its
legitimacy.
> Communication skills are learned for the most part before the age of
> 5, and most of the rules are internalized before the age of 12.
The very loss of those skills may be the impetus to the creation of a
new form of expression. A painter who suffers a stroke may choose to
investigate what new paradigms exist. In this case the process of
rediscovery is a semiotic expression of the history of art itself. In
the end the value of the process may out way the value of the paintings:
art for the sake of process. In the process of rediscovery the artist is
able to call upon their *entire* body of work (as well as that of
others), of which there very earliest works are but a minor part.
> If you
> don't pay attention to developing those skills you may be a damned profound
> "writer" at age 80, but by then you'll be limited to contributing the
> thoughts of an old writer, through the help of an interpreter/co-writer who
> will have to spell and grammar-correct everything you create.
One does not physically need to be able to write in order to be an
incredible author. The thoughts of an old writer may well be far more
relevant than those of a brash youth or an idealistic young adult.
Native wisdom is seldom spontaneous, but rather developed during an
entire lifetime. The purest essence of meaning may be reduced to a
single phrase or word for those who (young and old) are willing and
patient.
> Your youthful
> experiences will be tainted by lessons learned decades later, and in short,
> your ability to perform the job is limited.
Only your ability to relate the immediate experiences of a youthful
artist is limited. This does not mean your ability to express and create
relevant topical exquisite forms of art that are that are honest to who
you are a that time is defunct.
[snip]
>
> Even painting requires a coordination that is generally lost if not
> developed in the early years.
And yet Matisse sought deliberately to escape fine motor coordination by
using very long awkward paintbrushes and large canvases in order to
emphasize gesture and composition. This innovation was arrived at late
in
life and was not a necessitated by a lack of coordination, but rather to
spite it. He believed he could achieve a more pure form of expression in
this manner.
> And you seem to narrow this statement down to
> writing and almost entirely cerebral forms of art,
Narrow? On the contrary! Art is a field of human endeavor that is no
longer easily defined in terms of the traditional Eurocentric artistic
forms. Now even the waning of life may be seen as a performance. This is
not a new
concept, Shakespear alluded to this possibility:
"All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They
have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many
parts, His acts being seven ages."(JAQUES in Bill Shakespear "As You
Like It")
> which is a pretty
> desperate attempt to find some clause through which to escape my use of the
> absolute.
> Some people have great trouble with the use of absolutes, because
> they see life as a relative experience.
> Unfortunately, some of life is
> absolute,
Some is absolute? This is an oxymoron: jumbo-shrimp,
relative-absolutism?
The use of the "absolute" forms a serial or chain argument. One
exception defeats the argument: it is no longer absolute. Because of
your of broad and inappropriate characterization that excellence in
"any" art form is
rooted in early psychomotor development, you've defeated your own
argument. If you keep shifting your definition to encompass eventually
all other areas of early childhood development your argument becomes
banal. In the end the mere fact of being born into a given environment
with a given set of genetic predispositions pretty much sets your life
long development.....
> and since we are talking of taking up pipes in particular, there
> is not one virtuoso in the history of the instrument who did not take it up
> in their early life.
I'm not arguing about pipes in particular but rather your use of the
absolute argument with regards to the total human experience of art. Of
course you are correct about piping *in particular* and your arguments
as they relate to youth and piping are sound. However the question may
also be asked is it an *absolute* impossibility that there will never a
virtuoso who started late in life? Also is being a virtuoso purpose of
piping or an artifact (an impressive artifact)?
[snip]
> >You might think I'm being picky but your terms of reference for *any*
> >artistic endeavor are way too narrow.
>
> No, you're taking the statement deliberately way beyond the arguments
> parameters
Because of your use of the absolute argument. you have left yourself
open to this kind of interpretation.
> to find an out--and still, the most strength you point could
> have is to say that if all else fails you can still go on to write about
> piping even if you never amount to anything as a player.
>
> Royce
>
> (But then again, that might be too close to home in my case.)
And we are *both* at home writing about it.
"I hold the world but as the world, Gratiano A stage, where every man
must play a part, And mine a sad one." (ANTONIO in Bill Shakespear's
"The Merchant of Venice")
Cheers
Marc Fournier
John Cissna
It sounds to me as if your PM is trying to keep a status quo. He wants
to keep the band at a Street/parade level only. Young people in general
do not make show the best in a Marching and Disciplin format. What they
do is push to band musically after a point. Many players who have
started in there later years feel threatened by the young scoundrals
playing rings around them. This is especially true if all they want to
do themselves is march in a parade and look good.
Your PM is correct in one respect. If you recruit younger players they
will either 1) give
up on the bagpipes, or 2) give up on the band and go to another with a
more
musical emphasis.
If the bands goal is to play the best it can musically then new young
members are a must.
If the bands goal is to just play down the streat, then young members
may not be what you want.
Personally I am in it to play the best I can.
--
John Cissna
L.A. Scots Pipe Band
email: cissna (@) synergymicro (dot) com
PGP key :
http://keys.pgp.com:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x9C5410D2
Marc Fournier
Royce Lerwick wrote:
>
> At 10:48 AM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
[snip]
>
> It is always better to encourage artistic craft in youth. That is an absolute.
>
Its always best to encourage artistic excellence in people of any age,
including youth.
> Whether it works out or not is another matter.
>
> Whether or not you can still pull your creative bacon out of the fire in
> your dotage is another matter.
Those who can pull their creative bacon out of the fire are to be
admired regardless of age.
>
> I would never tell a young Mozart he's not in my band because he's not over
> 30 and he doesn't have a car to get to the gigs.
I'm not putting arbitrary limits on who can join, learn or play the
pipes. I have not yet and I never will. For a street band (remember the
original post is about kids in a street band) reasonable abillity and
strong desire learn and improve and committment to the bnad count most,
regardless of age.
>
> That's the context you're arguing in.
Again the context I was arguing had nothing to do with the merits of
young players in bands. I was arguing that your scope for artisitic
expression was too narrow. Sometimes age, luck, experience etc... take
precedence over early development of psychomotor skills in the creation
of art.
I have not taken issue with the premis that an early start gives you a
distinct advantage if you want to be an excellent piper.
Cheers
Marc Fournier
Marc Fournier
talcott wrote:
>
> Hi, Mark.
>
> Looks like an interesting thing you and Royce have going. I'm not seeing
> Royce's posts on the NG, but did pick up this one.
>
> Marc Fournier wrote:
>
> > In this case the very lack of psychomotor skills gives the work its
> > legitimacy.
>
> "artistic merit" we _have_ to ascribe positive value to this piece of
> poetry simply because the writer is disabled in whatever way. Is this
> what you mean? (It's the person who lacks psychomotor skills, not the
> "work", isn't it?)
No, not at all. A disabled person who makes bad art does nothing more
than that. However it is entirely possible for a severly disabled person
to create exquisit forms art that are on par with any master's if they
have followed the theoretically sound path in the genesis of their art
form. My example of a poetic gesture was used simply because their
already exist a thoeretical framework for this type of expression.
The sense of legitimacy stems from the artist being true to who they are
and what their art is about. Wassily Kandinsky explains this very well
in introduction of his monograph "Concerning The Spiritual In Art". His
premiss was that each age has its style. "Every work of art is the child
of its age". He goes on to explain that a contemporary artist who
attempts to "recreate" past art by reviving a "past esthetic" is
creating art that is void of meaning. "Such imitation is mere aping". In
this case the disabled(?) artist should not be attempting to be
normal(?) they should be conciously creating with the appropriate modal
form.
An eight fingered piper who plays badly is still a bad piper. An eight
fingered piper who redesigns the chanter and plays excelent music
written for that chanter and who also plays his instrument with
excellence (not on a sliding scale here) is an excellent piper. (S)He
may never be able to play the same music as everyone else just different
music.
The argument I *think* Royce and I are having is about his narrowing the
field of artistic expression to only art forms which require early
childhood development of psychomotor skills. Even with his narrow
interpretation of what is art he is wrong. For example, with painting
during the 19th and 20th century art became introspective and
essentially took istself as subject matter. Fine motor skills became far
less relevant to creation of important art. The new paradigm was not who
could paint the nicest picture but who could arrive at the purest
expression of what a painting is. In this frame work the artist's
ability to place their work at the head of a series of citations of
former works and their justification for how their latest reductionist
expression pointed toward the essence of painting was paramount. It was
a *very* cerebral excercise and once the statement was sucessfully made
the form was essentially dead. But that is another story.
>
> If so, it puts all artistic judgment in the trash: merit is judged not
> on artistry, but on the physical/mental circumstances of the person who
> produced it. This seems to be a part of the larger PC (_not_ practice
> chanter) mentatlity that ascribes value to "diverse" voices, whether or
> not they can spell "cat" without a dictionary, simply because they are
> not "mainstream". This is a stance of the current academic artistic
> criticism which is more interested in political power issues than in
> what makes good art.
You are correct about the power of political correctness. It is a form
of tirrany. In the end time will sift the great art out from the merely
politically correct.
>
> Wouldn't a better way of judging artistic merit be to put the writings,
> artwork, recordings, in a bag, pull them out, unattributed, and have
> them judged simply by their _own_ merits, rather than the fact that the
> author was black, blue, green, or a three-toed sloth?
Yes! It is best to judge art on its own merits. Great art will always
transcend artificial classifications.
> We can be amazed by the fact that the sloth plays the pipes (given that
> he's a sloth and only has three toes, after all.) Are you saying _simply
> because_ he's a sloth we have to take his playing as "legitimate" and
> "important" as Willie McCallum's playing, even though he (the sloth, not
> Willie) would get tossed from the worst Grade V band of Royce's
> nightmares?
>
A sloth who plays the pipes badly is a slothful piper.
> No wonder Western Civilization is going to hell in a cheap sporran.;)
>
Would that be one of those cheap vinyl paki knock offs?
> Cheers,
> Mike Talcott
Now here is my idea of art hell: a new artistic form based on playing
the pipes on November 11 at an ambient temp. of 0 degrees celcius with a
stiff northeasterly wind comming off Lake Calabogie. Whew!!
Cheers
Marc Fournier
Scott Allen
> From tal...@sisna.com Tue Nov 11 15:26:47 1997
>
> If so, it puts all artistic judgment in the trash: merit is judged not
> on artistry, but on the physical/mental circumstances of the person who
> produced it. This seems to be a part of the larger PC (_not_ practice
> chanter) mentatlity that ascribes value to "diverse" voices, whether or
> not they can spell "cat" without a dictionary, simply because they are
> not "mainstream". This is a stance of the current academic artistic
> criticism which is more interested in political power issues than in
> what makes good art.
>
Boy, I was going to comment on the original comments also, but I
knew that I'd be flame-bait. However, since you let the genie
out of the bottle, I'll throw in.
The question is of course, who decides what is art.
I had the pleasure of living with an artist that actually made a decent
living at it, and we'd go round and round about this. I believe that
the buying and viewing public decide it, 'cause without a buyer and
or audience it has no value. She believed that it was first the
artist, ('cause who better to interpret the work) and second the art
community. The public had nothing to do with it 'cause they were
too ignorant to know what good art was. This comment from the original
poster was typical of her attitude:
> In this case the very lack of psychomotor skills gives the work its
> legitimacy.
I once saw a guy with no arms play a Cello with his feet. While I can
appreciate what he had to overcome to do it, I won't be reaching for one
of his CD's to play anytime soon. Bad music is bad music.
Anyway, I could go on for days.
Scott