Industrial labels need to consolidate RE: Napster clusterfuck
isoldmys...@my-deja.com
my point got lost so I am starting this thread for anyone that gives a
fuck.
My point about less quantity in our genre has nothing to do with the
majors consolidating. The majors are basically distribution systems
for individual producers within their fold. The way the majors operate
should not be held as a business model for a small label or for any
business anywhere anytime as it is one of the least profitable business
models ever created. 95% of projects put out by the majors fail. The
reason majors do well is the billions of dollars they make from their
couple top dollar acts and they usually put it into contracts so that
they at least recoup their losses. This is at the expense of the
musician they signed who gets fucked if he doesn't go platinum.
The indies have a chance to operate differently. Especially if they
are a named indie like Metropolis. They can focus really hard on less
bands and have their sales on their fewer bands equal the sales they
have by signing 200 acts. When a major puts an album out they promote
it for the next year and a half. When Metropolis puts an album out
they promote it for the next month and a half.
When you play Apoptygma Berserk, Velvet Acid Christ, VNV Nation,
Covenant etc...for your top 40 friends many times there is a positive
reaction. While these bands will NEVER EVER match the sales of N*Sync
or metallica, they are poised to match the sales of Skinny Puppy or
KMFDM. Here's where the problem comes in.
A) Lack of promotion from their label.
B) Lack of touring presence (though VNV, Apop and Covenant are making
up for this.)
C) There is a glutted market with so many bands that it is almost
impossible to wade through the shit to get to the good stuff unless you
are really hard core like Tommy T. This is why even on this newsgroup
there are a core of bands that get most thread time. Apop, Puppy, VNV,
KMFDM etc... because most people don't know the other ones.
D) There is a view that it is the consumers fault this music is not
doing well. If you are not reaching your audience it is YOUR fault not
theirs.
E) This scene disses anything once it gets popular and instead of
trying to get people into the music by giving them Velvet Acid Christ
they say, here try Imminent Starvation. Industrial music is an aquired
taste so you need to start them slow and easy. The forced injection is
never a good thing.
If there was more solidarity and more of a way to discern what was good
and what wasn't that would be great. Instead of the major labels of
the genre signing the crap let smaller indies spring up and sign the
crap. Let your label be known, NOT for having EVERY band of the genre
but for having the BEST bands of the genre. The scene needs to take a
few more risks if it wants to get ahead. Take a chance to lose some
money, you'll stand to make a lot more. When a band that has mass
appeal on your label puts out a release, push it fucking hard, get it
on the listening stations at HMV and do sticker campaigns. You can get
15 year old kids to paste up stickers for free just because they get a
couple free CDs and a T-shirt from you that they can't get anywhere
else. Here in New York you will see stickers for a Rap act for about a
year and be like, "WTF is that", you see the stickers and posters
EVERYWHERE, then a year later that motherfuckers on MTV singing about a
thong or something equally stupid.
Erek
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
You Here
>
>
>My point about less quantity in our genre has nothing to do with the
>majors consolidating. The majors are basically distribution systems
>for individual producers within their fold. The way the majors operate
>should not be held as a business model for a small label or for any
>business anywhere anytime as it is one of the least profitable business
>models ever created. 95% of projects put out by the majors fail. The
>reason majors do well is the billions of dollars they make from their
>couple top dollar acts and they usually put it into contracts so that
>they at least recoup their losses. This is at the expense of the
>musician they signed who gets fucked if he doesn't go platinum.
>
actually its the most profitable model otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.
This is the only model they can use with a fickle population that changes their
tastes and styles according to which way the wind blows. Nobody really knows
whats going to hit a nerve with a particular demographic, or when its going to
happen. They sure try hard to figure out and control all the components that
go into making a hit song, from production to marketing, but they never know.
They simply have to take shots in the dark. Nowadays though, their information
is better than ever before and they don't have to take as many shots in the
dark. They don't have to take as many chances the closer they can get to
predicting what the charts will look like 6 months from now.
>The indies have a chance to operate differently. Especially if they
>are a named indie like Metropolis. They can focus really hard on less
>bands and have their sales on their fewer bands equal the sales they
>have by signing 200 acts. When a major puts an album out they promote
>it for the next year and a half.
well, only the successful ones. it may APPEAR to YOU that it looks like they
promote everything for a year and a half but 99% of the stuff they release gets
promoted for one WEEK and if radio or video hasn't picked up on it they will
push it aside and MAYBE relaunch it later in the year during a less busy time
for the industry.
>
>C) There is a glutted market with so many bands that it is almost
>impossible to wade through the shit to get to the good stuff unless you
>are really hard core like Tommy T. This is why even on this newsgroup
>there are a core of bands that get most thread time. Apop, Puppy, VNV,
>KMFDM etc... because most people don't know the other ones.
>
huh? you're contradicting yourself in the same statement. First you say there
are too many bands and they need to focus on only promoting a few and then you
say the problem is that only a few bands get talked about on this newsgroup.
Well isn't that the result of the type of promotional model you are
encouraging??
>D) There is a view that it is the consumers fault this music is not
>doing well.
I agree with this part.
> If you are not reaching your audience it is YOUR fault not
>theirs.
>
I disagree with this part. it isnt necessarily the consumers fault or MY
fault. its really the climate. a culmination of 80 years of music recording
industry.
> You can get
>15 year old kids to paste up stickers for free just because they get a
>couple free CDs and a T-shirt from you that they can't get anywhere
>else. Here in New York you will see stickers for a Rap act for about a
>year and be like, "WTF is that", you see the stickers and posters
>EVERYWHERE, then a year later that motherfuckers on MTV singing about a
>thong or something equally stupid.
heh that reminds me of this campaign launched by a battery company. they went
to rave parties and hired ravers to wear t-shirts with the cryptic battery logo
and nothing else. they also sponsored a few rave parties and put up banners
with the mysterious logo. Everyone thought it was so cool then a few months
later the logo was on TV commercials for batteries. Some of the kids
interviewed about this were very upset about being tricked. Others thought the
device was 'clever', and said that if they saw the batteries in the store they
would probably them ruefully remembering how they had been hoodwinked into
thinking batteries were hip.
isoldmys...@my-deja.com
> actually its the most profitable model otherwise they wouldn't be
doing it.
> This is the only model they can use with a fickle population that
changes their
> tastes and styles according to which way the wind blows. Nobody
really knows
> whats going to hit a nerve with a particular demographic, or when its
going to
> happen. They sure try hard to figure out and control all the
components that
> go into making a hit song, from production to marketing, but they
never know.
> They simply have to take shots in the dark. Nowadays though, their
information
> is better than ever before and they don't have to take as many shots
in the
> dark. They don't have to take as many chances the closer they can
get to
> predicting what the charts will look like 6 months from now.
>
Actually no...you are wrong it is one of the least profitable business
models. Only about 2% of all bands on major labels turn a profit and
out of those not too many return a respectable profit. The recording
industry blows billions on failed ventures. As a business model it's
extremely wasteful.
> well, only the successful ones. it may APPEAR to YOU that it looks
like they
> promote everything for a year and a half but 99% of the stuff they
release gets
> promoted for one WEEK and if radio or video hasn't picked up on it
they will
> push it aside and MAYBE relaunch it later in the year during a less
busy time
> for the industry.
>
That's what I mean the successful ones get promoted for a year and a
half. Imagine how many albums Fun With Knives would have sold had it
been promoted by it's label as long as the new/old Backstreet Boys
album that is STILL being promoted. (remember I said as long not as
heavily monetary constraints factor in)
My point is that if the labels pushed their better bands more they
would increase the market and the bands that are not as good would have
a place on smaller labels and get absorbed by the now larger market.
>
> huh? you're contradicting yourself in the same statement. First you
say there
> are too many bands and they need to focus on only promoting a few and
then you
> say the problem is that only a few bands get talked about on this
newsgroup.
> Well isn't that the result of the type of promotional model you are
> encouraging??
>
I said that's a problem because there are so many bands being put out
that they spend money just pressing CDs for one band that could be
going to promoting another band. So instead of pressing one band and
promoting it they press two bands and promote neither.
> >D) There is a view that it is the consumers fault this music is not
> >doing well.
>
> I agree with this part.
>
If your music gets exposure by you pushing it then it will get
recognized. Limp Bizkit payed a radio station in Portland to play
Faith in heavy rotation and that's how they got big. I am not saying
that's what you have to do but publicity stunts are cool.
> > If you are not reaching your audience it is YOUR fault not
> >theirs.
> >
>
> I disagree with this part. it isnt necessarily the consumers fault
or MY
> fault. its really the climate. a culmination of 80 years of music
recording
> industry.
>
Blaming the climate of the recording industry is a copout but there are
mitigating factors that might cause a good band to not be noticed so
that statement is pretty unfair.
> heh that reminds me of this campaign launched by a battery company.
they went
> to rave parties and hired ravers to wear t-shirts with the cryptic
battery logo
> and nothing else. they also sponsored a few rave parties and put up
banners
> with the mysterious logo. Everyone thought it was so cool then a few
months
> later the logo was on TV commercials for batteries. Some of the kids
> interviewed about this were very upset about being tricked. Others
thought the
> device was 'clever', and said that if they saw the batteries in the
store they
> would probably them ruefully remembering how they had been hoodwinked
into
> thinking batteries were hip.
>
>
That's pretty funny actually. I would think that the logo was suddenly
cooler because all those stupid rave logos that don't mean a goddamn
thing are pretty dumb. Fuck it...if the battery company throws a cool
party for you why should you care?
You Here
>
>
>
>Actually no...you are wrong it is one of the least profitable business
>models. Only about 2% of all bands on major labels turn a profit and
>out of those not too many return a respectable profit. The recording
>industry blows billions on failed ventures. As a business model it's
>extremely wasteful.
>
>
well if you're comparing it to other industries, but this particular industry's
most profitable model happens to be convoluted and wasteful.
>
>
>Blaming the climate of the recording industry is a copout but there are
>mitigating factors that might cause a good band to not be noticed so
>that statement is pretty unfair.
>
>
could be, but blaming myself would make me depressed and unproductive. so I'm
not going to fall into your trap of put-downs.
>
>That's pretty funny actually. I would think that the logo was suddenly
>cooler because all those stupid rave logos that don't mean a goddamn
>thing are pretty dumb. Fuck it...if the battery company throws a cool
>party for you why should you care?
heh yeah but i doubt it was a very cool party
THORmonger [nothing box]
sp...@spammy.spam.spam (You Here) wrote:
> >That's pretty funny actually. I would think that the logo was
suddenly
> >cooler because all those stupid rave logos that don't mean a goddamn
> >thing are pretty dumb. Fuck it...if the battery company throws a
cool
> >party for you why should you care?
>
> heh yeah but i doubt it was a very cool party
Somehow, I doubt all the kids strung out on E and the like would be too
out there to care.
-Thor
--
: THORmonger 2000 : http://www.geocities.com/thormonger/ :
: nothing box : music site : http://www.mp3.com/nothingbox/ :
: nothing box : info site : http://www.geocities.com/nothingbox/ :
isoldmys...@my-deja.com
> > >thing are pretty dumb. Fuck it...if the battery company throws a
> cool
> > >party for you why should you care?
> >
> > heh yeah but i doubt it was a very cool party
>
> Somehow, I doubt all the kids strung out on E and the like would be
too
> out there to care.
>
> -Thor
>
Man...I thought you had to be in the KKK to be that closed minded. You
are a moron. Being on drugs does not make a sucky party cool. Empty-
headed ravers are only as emptyheaded as emptyheaded "rivetheads" who
think that being a raver makes you emptyheaded.
Or were you just failing at wit?
Erek
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.
You Here
>
>In article <AtLf5.9360$n43....@news1.crdva1.bc.home.com>,
> sp...@spammy.spam.spam (You Here) wrote:
>> >That's pretty funny actually. I would think that the logo was
>suddenly
>> >cooler because all those stupid rave logos that don't mean a goddamn
>cool
>> >party for you why should you care?
>>
>> heh yeah but i doubt it was a very cool party
>
>Somehow, I doubt all the kids strung out on E and the like would be too
>out there to care.
>
no THAT would be a cool party. But I'm sure the battery company hired about 10
times as many security guards as a regular rave and tossed out anyone who
appeared to be on drugs. If anything the ravers were probably wondering if the
rave had been sponsored by a community initiative or a church group.
You Here
>
>
>> > >thing are pretty dumb. Fuck it...if the battery company throws a
>> cool
>> > >party for you why should you care?
>> >
>> > heh yeah but i doubt it was a very cool party
>>
>> Somehow, I doubt all the kids strung out on E and the like would be
>too
>> out there to care.
>>
>>
>
>Man...I thought you had to be in the KKK to be that closed minded. You
>are a moron. Being on drugs does not make a sucky party cool.
no but if you're not going to be on drugs then other people have to be. if
nobody at a party is on drugs then it is definitely a LAME PARTY.
isoldmys...@my-deja.com
sp...@spammy.spam.spam (You Here) wrote:
> In article <8lpo13$ohu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, isoldmysoulforpez@my-
That's pretty damn true.
cryp...@my-deja.com
>
> My point is that if the labels pushed their better bands more they
> would increase the market and the bands that are not as good would have
> a place on smaller labels and get absorbed by the now larger market.
>
There is an intrinsic problem here unfortunately. The amount of money
spent by the major labels in the promotion of their latest version of
"The Brittany-Backstreet-'N Sync-Aguillera's" is well beyond the means of
any of the independant labels that put out electro/industrial. Hell, if
ALL of the independants joined forces and pooled their promotional
resources, they still couldn't come close to the amount of money spent on
the latest pop sensation. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic here, but
the masses seem to buy what they're told to buy in the mainstream media.
The only independant act in my recent memory to transcend this, is Moby.
How exactly he managed to do it is beyond me. Largely, I think it is
because BMG picked up his distribution. Maybe they had an executive type
who liked what Moby was doing. I don't know. But if someone has an idea
how to get our music more widespread appeal, let me know!
>
> I said that's a problem because there are so many bands being put out
> that they spend money just pressing CDs for one band that could be
> going to promoting another band. So instead of pressing one band and
> promoting it they press two bands and promote neither.
>
I agree with this to a certain extent. I like to think that the labels in
this genre do this out of a love for the genre. That they want to see as
many bands get the opportunity to be heard. You are absolutely right,
however, in that this process minimizes the amount available for
promotion. But where do you promote? All of the independants service DJ's
in the scene ( to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the label).
Magazines that specialize in these genres have extremely limited
circulations (eg. Outburn, Side-Line and Prospective). The larger
magazines like AP and CMJ charge exorbitant rates for advertising, and
you aren't very likely to get reviewed if you don't advertise with them.
I won't even go into what Spin and Rolling Stone charge.
> > >D) There is a view that it is the consumers fault this music is not
> > >doing well.
> >
> > I agree with this part.
> >
See Above for my view on this.
>
> If your music gets exposure by you pushing it then it will get
> recognized. Limp Bizkit payed a radio station in Portland to play
> Faith in heavy rotation and that's how they got big. I am not saying
> that's what you have to do but publicity stunts are cool.
>
I think the best way to reach a wider audience is to tour the College
circuit. Granted, it's not the same as it was in the days of the Pixies
etc., but it's about the only way to book an extended tour and actually
NOT lose money. People go to campus bars to drink, most of the time not
caring whether or not a band is playing. They pay the cover anyway,
because campus bars have cheaper drinks (generally speaking, of course).
I saw several bands over the course of my (extended) university career
substantially increase their fan-base this way (Consolidated and,
strangely enough, the Barenaked Ladies... I know, totally different
genre). The point is, the Barenaked Ladies were able to be the first band
in the history of the Canadian Music Industry, to achieve Gold record
sales for an idependently produced TAPE! How? By touring the College
circuit. Since there are so few venues out there that book electronic
acts, I see this as the only viable prospect for a band wanting to tour.
Sorry. That was rather long winded.
"There are only two types of music...Good and Bad. I like good music"
Count Basie
Mkebeliev
know! <<<<<
This music may not reach mainstream status for other reasons than lack of
promotion and marketing. It would be better in some cases and in other cases
this could prove to be worse. Just look at the punk scene. There is also alot
of "better than thou" attitudes in this scene that don't help matters any
either. That however is a whole different show.
>The point is, the Barenaked Ladies were able to be the first band in the
history of the Canadian Music Industry, to achieve Gold record sales for an
idependently produced TAPE! How? <<<<
The fact that they actually know how to write a hook and melody that is
memorable helped a tad as well.....
Amanuesis
-- They also were very cool with political "sorting shit out"
as best they could be...blasting quick 'hooks' into pop mindset
minds -- Dream the world is all cool....!!!It is.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
http://wwp.icq.com/46430923
http://www.interdimensional.com
http://welcome.to/interdimensional
isoldmys...@my-deja.com
cryp...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> >
> > My point is that if the labels pushed their better bands more they
> > would increase the market and the bands that are not as good would
have
> > a place on smaller labels and get absorbed by the now larger market.
> >
> There is an intrinsic problem here unfortunately. The amount of money
> spent by the major labels in the promotion of their latest version of
> "The Brittany-Backstreet-'N Sync-Aguillera's" is well beyond the
means of
> any of the independant labels that put out electro/industrial. Hell,
if
> ALL of the independants joined forces and pooled their promotional
> resources, they still couldn't come close to the amount of money
spent on
> the latest pop sensation. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic here, but
> the masses seem to buy what they're told to buy in the mainstream
media.
> The only independant act in my recent memory to transcend this, is
Moby.
> How exactly he managed to do it is beyond me. Largely, I think it is
> because BMG picked up his distribution. Maybe they had an executive
type
idea
> how to get our music more widespread appeal, let me know!
>
Right, but we have a label like Metropolis who has the Borg approach to
spreading the word. If Metro would have a little more foresight and
instead of signing Joe Schleprock and Moronica Buzzonica and spent the
money that pressing the CDs for those two bands on two articles in CMJ
or one article in Spin for Apoptygma Berzerk, VNV Nation, Wumpscut, or
Velvet Acid Christ any one of those bands would sell the number of CDs
that the two abovementioned bands would sell anyway BECAUSE of the
article. Now there is a little trickle down economics that factor in
here.
Suddenly Velvet Acid Christ just sold 20,000 more copies of Fun With
Knives. Now half the people that liked Fun With Knives are going to
buy Calling ov the Dead and Church of Acid. That's another ten
thousand sales for Metropolis. Now...people hear VAC and realize how
much they like the genre. Lo' and behold Metropolis has EVEN MORE
BANDS!!!! What is this?!?! a whole label of music that I love that
I've never even heard of. So Metropolis sells even MORE records.
People hear more and bands on that label and find out that there are a
CLUBS that play this music, so they go to the clubs and find out there
are other labels LIKE Metropolis so they go and buy more albums from
them. So Gashed records sells more copies of Assemblage 23 and signs
Joe Schleprock while Zoth Ommog sells more copies of X-Act and signs
Moronica Buzzonica.
See how that works? Albeit that's a pretty Optomistic view on it, but
in the end I think that's how it would work out to a degree.
> > If your music gets exposure by you pushing it then it will get
> > recognized. Limp Bizkit payed a radio station in Portland to play
> > Faith in heavy rotation and that's how they got big. I am not
saying
> > that's what you have to do but publicity stunts are cool.
> >
> I think the best way to reach a wider audience is to tour the College
> circuit. Granted, it's not the same as it was in the days of the
Pixies
> etc., but it's about the only way to book an extended tour and
actually
> NOT lose money. People go to campus bars to drink, most of the time
not
> caring whether or not a band is playing. They pay the cover anyway,
> because campus bars have cheaper drinks (generally speaking, of
course).
> I saw several bands over the course of my (extended) university career
> substantially increase their fan-base this way (Consolidated and,
> strangely enough, the Barenaked Ladies... I know, totally different
> genre). The point is, the Barenaked Ladies were able to be the first
band
> in the history of the Canadian Music Industry, to achieve Gold record
> sales for an idependently produced TAPE! How? By touring the College
> circuit. Since there are so few venues out there that book electronic
> acts, I see this as the only viable prospect for a band wanting to
tour.
> Sorry. That was rather long winded.
As for the college circuit that doesn't work as well for Industrial
bands. Yeah you can tour the college circuit and get limited success,
but the success of the Barenaked Ladies is probably do to the amount of
emptyheaded frat boys and open legged sorority girls that liked them
buying the album. Again Velvet Acid Christ is not going to do too well
in that crowd. You have to find your audience. One of the biggest
mistakes people make is thinking that music has one audience. The
stupidest thing I have ever heard was Billy Corgan talking about not
being able to sell albums because of Britney Spears.
Erek
--
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.
DJ Evil C
>circuit. Granted, it's not the same as it was in the days of the Pixies
>etc., but it's about the only way to book an extended tour and actually
>NOT lose money. People go to campus bars to drink, most of the time not
College radio is the only outlet left here in Cleveland for independent
music because the indie-friendly alternative rock station bit the dust
because of corporate radio taking over.
There is an awful lot to play in industrial circles. I try to only play the
best, but, as said, there are still a gazillon bands and that number squared
comps. And, while someone new might really like Apop, some jaded music
expert (every scene has at least one) gives you a dirty look for playing
them.
- DJ Evil C
ov Darkfield Imagery
cryp...@my-deja.com
> >
>
> Right, but we have a label like Metropolis who has the Borg approach to
> spreading the word. If Metro would have a little more foresight and
> instead of signing Joe Schleprock and Moronica Buzzonica and spent the
> money that pressing the CDs for those two bands on two articles in CMJ
> or one article in Spin for Apoptygma Berzerk, VNV Nation, Wumpscut, or
> Velvet Acid Christ any one of those bands would sell the number of CDs
> that the two abovementioned bands would sell anyway BECAUSE of the
> article. Now there is a little trickle down economics that factor in
> here.
>
> Suddenly Velvet Acid Christ just sold 20,000 more copies of Fun With
> Knives. Now half the people that liked Fun With Knives are going to
> buy Calling ov the Dead and Church of Acid. That's another ten
> thousand sales for Metropolis. Now...people hear VAC and realize how
> much they like the genre. Lo' and behold Metropolis has EVEN MORE
> BANDS!!!! What is this?!?! a whole label of music that I love that
> I've never even heard of. So Metropolis sells even MORE records.
> People hear more and bands on that label and find out that there are a
> CLUBS that play this music, so they go to the clubs and find out there
> are other labels LIKE Metropolis so they go and buy more albums from
> them. So Gashed records sells more copies of Assemblage 23 and signs
> Joe Schleprock while Zoth Ommog sells more copies of X-Act and signs
> Moronica Buzzonica.
>
> See how that works? Albeit that's a pretty Optomistic view on it, but
> in the end I think that's how it would work out to a degree.
>
>
> As for the college circuit that doesn't work as well for Industrial
> bands. Yeah you can tour the college circuit and get limited success,
> but the success of the Barenaked Ladies is probably do to the amount of
> emptyheaded frat boys and open legged sorority girls that liked them
> buying the album. Again Velvet Acid Christ is not going to do too well
> in that crowd. You have to find your audience. One of the biggest
> mistakes people make is thinking that music has one audience. The
> stupidest thing I have ever heard was Billy Corgan talking about not
> being able to sell albums because of Britney Spears.
>
> Erek
>
Point well taken! Thanks
Terence
Interdimensional Industries
"There are only two types of music...good and bad."--Count Basie
cryp...@my-deja.com
DJ's like you (and fortunately there are a few), we'd all have a much
harder time hearing new music. Thank you!
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