industrial, dada, and post-industrial
bruce h. nagel
On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 21:42:38 GMT, downfall
<sw85...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
>i think they're both very valid to state, so i believe we just have to
>agree to disagree...in my eyes the initial "wave" is what a genre is
>about and after that wave has vanished, and the ideas it created have
>been abandoned by other acts then, quite frankly, the scene is dead. if
>bands continue to *build* upon the ideas put forth by the first wave then
>the genre will continue to grow. the dada element to Industrial could not
>be stressed enough, imho, and when this is abandoned, in my eyes, the most
>important aspect of Industrial Musick is abandoned. thus my proclaiming
>the genre dead.
Hmm, so you are saying the 'sound as non-music' aspect of industrial
is what it was about, and anything which moved in other directions
(making it more danceable, or more aesthetically pleasing) is a
deviance and signals a change in genre? That does seem consistent
with the way visual art movements have been treated (such as the
change when Dadasim led into Surrealism).
>but then again very few musicians approach any sense of "genre" with open
>arms...it seems that's the difference between music and art (well, one of
>the differences.) artists fit comfortably within categories and accept
>said categories without so much as a complaint...musicians bitch and moan
>about "genres" and how it hurts their music.
I'm not sure if I agree with that. Some artists are very comfortable
being labeled within a genre, mostly if they're the perceived leaders
or originators of it (Picasso, Dali, Pollock, etc.). Most artists I
know aren't in a category, and don't consider themselves
Post-Modernists, for instance. Some would accept the label
gracefully, if applied to them, others would either ignore it or argue
the point, me included.
>> in short, i believe proclaiming dadaists / industrialists 'dead' like some
>> fashion trend is pointless.
>
>i think, in music, it could be very helpful...it'll help people
>acknowledge that this genre is, effectively, post-industrial and wouldn't
>tarnish the works of tg, cv, en, spk, etal. and would really give this
>genre a better sense of history.
A nice big sign with a little red arrow, and a "you are here" on it?
It'd be nice if I had that for visual art, and I bet it would
straighten out a little confusion for some people interested in
industrial music and related work.
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downfall
On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, bruce h. nagel wrote:
> Hmm, so you are saying the 'sound as non-music' aspect of industrial
> is what it was about,
yes, because the anti-musick aspect is what the genre was all about...the
ugliness of it was almost unavoidable...
> and anything which moved in other directions (making it more danceable,
> or more aesthetically pleasing) is a deviance and signals a change in
> genre?
i think the fact that artists have insisted on making it more
"aesthetically pleasing" has, inevitably moved post-industrial even
further away from what Industrial was about. it was a reaction to the
wanker rock of the seventies...an attempt to shock the listener with
unpleasing, painful sounds. once you try to twist *that* into pop you are
going against its basic nature...
> A nice big sign with a little red arrow, and a "you are here" on it?
> It'd be nice if I had that for visual art, and I bet it would
> straighten out a little confusion for some people interested in
> industrial music and related work.
Industrial Musick post-industrial.........
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death you are here...
-downfall
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