Writing Paper on Ind.--need info/opinions
Mathew B. White
I know I'm in the right place for this request. I'm doing research on
"industrial music," however that may be defined. I've done a lot
of reading about some of the artists suggested in the RMI FAQ
(Satie, Varese, etc.) and John Cage.
Anyway, my thesis basically is that industrial per se is a neo-dada
movement. This theory makes sense in relation to Classical electronic
movement and its influence on Cage, who is considered a neo-dada composer.
What I need info on is any ideas on how the dada movement in 1920s
classical music can be traced as an influence in modern "industrial"
music. Or give me a new angle. There are a number of examples that I can
come up with, but of course my knowledge is limited by tastes. Here are
some examples:
Cabaret Voltaire is named after the meeting place of the Dada artists and
thinkers in Europe in the 1920s.
ClockDVA's concept of chance and anti-chance jives with the Dada notion of
chance and art/anti-art. (This is also seen in Cage).
MC900FootJesus refers to an "exquisite corpse" in his song "Dali's
Handgun," "eqxuisite corpse" being the name of a Dada free-association
literature process where many people each write one line of a poem.
Meat Beat Manifesto refers to John Cage in their latest album. Also, one
of their members uses a "prepared" guitar, analagous with Cage's use of
"prepared" piano.
Anyway, I need a lot more examples and ideas. Any info is appreciated.
Thanks in advance. Please e-mail me at inn...@alinc.com.
--Mat [inn...@alinc.com]
{tsilihin eneres} Q
Adam Trowbridge
Specific industrial before industrial refrences:
See-Italy, post-dada, Italian Futurists, did ballets where people acted
out roles of machine parts. They loved machines, the idea of technology,
etc.
See-Germany, the Bauhaus, tried to integrate art and industrial
production
See-Dada, Marcel Duchamp, created sound works
See-The group that hung around Picasso, playwrites, filmmakers. There
was crossover with the Futurists, and sound art was created for ballets.
See-William S. Burroughs, cut-up tape pieces, 1950's
There's so much more...this is such an in depth topic, do you go back
beyond Dada to composers who went against traditional note arrangment?
Do you go back beyond organized music, when rhythm and beat were most
important?
Seems more like a Doctoral thesis than a paper :), it could go on for
chapters...
-- AT
-----------------------------------------------
Feral Arts Collective:
http://www.earthlink.net/~adamdt
-----------------------------------------------
Feral Arts Journal:
http://home.earthlink.net/~adamdt/fajindex1.html
-----------------------------------------------
...To tear a hole in the sky...To bring a new fire...
Francis X. Connor
Seek out some old magazine/television interviews with Cabaret Voltaire;
they always used to talk about how Dada influenced them. Richard Kirk
even talks about Dada in a fairly recent interview in _Gear_ magazine.
The good 'ol _Industrial Culture Handbook_ may actually be helpful in
this case as well.
And for a specific reference...one of the first tracks they ever recorded
was called "The Dada Man".
Industrial can indeed be interpreted as an anti-art movement
not unlike dadaism. Think about the early industrial bands, for
example, against the backdrop of popular music. Non's use of pure noise
as "music" is conceptually similar to Duchamp's bicycle wheel, for example.
Your thesis is fairly solid, and you should have no trouble supporting
it. Good luck.
Later,
Fran
--
______________________________________________________________________________
"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work, I want to achieve
it through not dying."
--Woody Allen
______________________________________________________________________________
Francis X. Connor Career English Major George Washington University
ufo
Ho-hum ... To trace it ALL down to Dada might be a bit problematic. I would
also not call John Cage a Dada composer although Dada has been an influence for
him, but - who in the 20th century has not been influenced by it?
Try Greil Marcus, Lipstick Traces, for a history of the Dada movement through
the centuries, from the Cabaret Voltaire in Zurich to the Lettrists and the
Situationist International, finally erupting in Paris, May '68, to the neo-Dada
movement in 1970s London where COUM transmissions (the TG predecessor) have
been part of it. Unfortunately, Marcus leaves out Industrial completely, but it
gives you an idea of how things developed.
With industrial itself, their ideas have not been confined to Dada. CV have
been influenced, sure (there's a Dada Man track on the CV 1974-1976 album),
even more so TG, think of their Tesco Disco slogans or L'ecole d'art
infantile/Ministry of Antisocial Insecurity stickers. In early 1980s Germany
there was a number of clearly Dada electronic bands, lyricwise and musicwise
(Der Plan or Foyer des Arts).
But I think it's important to tell the influences exactly. Dada was not
Surrealism (Surrelaism had a different objective, thus references to Exquisite
Corpse etc are somewhat problematic), nor had it anything to do with Futurism
(bunch of fucking fascist necrophiliacs anyway), Bauhaus or early Soviet art.
What theys had in common though was the idea of a modernisation of art that was
still seen in a 19th century context; the integration of modern media and the
redefinition of old ones (and the redifinition of the topics and aims) were
crucial for all these movements. I think, Industrial makes more sense here:
Taking up modernist ideas of the 1920s arts currents, putting them in a rather
post-modern context of 1970s pop culture and see what happens. Moreover, the
industrial area has always been huge and diverse. I wouldn't call SPK dada,
never.
ufo
DeDMaN--PokeweeD
inn...@highway.alinc.com (Mathew B. White) wrote:
>What I need info on is any ideas on how the dada movement in 1920s
>classical music can be traced as an influence in modern "industrial"
>music. Or give me a new angle. There are a number of examples that I can
>come up with, but of course my knowledge is limited by tastes. Here are
>some examples:
It seems like you've got a good angle on DADA's influence on
industrial music, but you should really look into it's relationship
with the futurist movement from about the same time period. Read the
"Futurist Manifesto" and you'll be amazed at some of the ideas
parallel industrial music. The futurists were obsessed with speed,
machines, factories, and noise. I would even venture to say that the
futurists put on the first "industrial" performance ever in the 20's
by gathering and assembling all their own instruments from factory
parts and mechanical leftovers and putting on an "industrial" concert.
The person who is generally considered the founder of futurism was
inspired by the time he got toasted, got in his car, drove it as fast
as it would go (probably about 20mph!), and crashed it into a lake of
factory sludge with his freinds. Now THAT'S industrial!
DeDMaN--PokeweeD
Poke...@usa.pipeline.com
http://gl.umbc.edu/~bthomp1/PokeweeD.html
Adam Trowbridge
ufo wrote:
> Dada was not
> Surrealism (Surrelaism had a different objective, thus references to Exquisite
> Corpse etc are somewhat problematic)
But they were extremly closely related, one could even say Dada birthed Surrealism, Dada
being the fertile ground, Freud and Psychoanalysis being the seed, for Surrelism.
, nor had it anything to do with Futurism
Tham is a fucking ignorant statement. So Futurism popped up out of nowhere, in the
post-Dada world? Your tone suggest more knowledge that your brain is supplying.
> (bunch of fucking fascist necrophiliacs anyway)
An even more ignorant statement.
, Bauhaus or early Soviet art.
And the third ignorant statement, linked to the first. So Futurism, Bahaus and Soviet Art
all just sprang forth and did not have "anything to do with" Dada?
> What theys had in common though was the idea of a modernisation of art that was
> still seen in a 19th century context; the integration of modern media and the
> redefinition of old ones (and the redifinition of the topics and aims) were
> crucial for all these movements.
A gross generalization that could apply to the Reniasance as well as many other art
movements, nearly every one in fact.
> I think, Industrial makes more sense here:
> Taking up modernist ideas of the 1920s arts currents, putting them in a rather
> post-modern context of 1970s pop culture and see what happens. Moreover, the
> industrial area has always been huge and diverse. I wouldn't call SPK dada,
> never.
The industrial area has been -called- huge and diverse because it is nonexistent. Like the
word alternative, it has no meaning, or rather it has so many meanings that it has lost
all specificity. Any grouping than includes TG, EN, NIN, NWW, Skinny Puppy, FLA, Coil, and
Current93 is just a joke. rec.music.industrial is like a (non-existent) newsgroup called
alt.art.welded-sculpture, the only commonality of the work is the tools used. And even
that doesn't apply to many of the groups called "industrial" now (which should be called
instead rec.music.no-talent.expensive-digital-equipment), but now I'm ranting...
Anyway, the point is that if you are talking about sound art, a grouping that would
include experiments in sound outside of music (Galas, Duchamp, Burroughs, TG, EN, Coil,
etc) then you can go into the art world for a pre-history. If you start out looking for a
history of "industrial" music, it is impossible.
--