What do Industrial fans have against Goths?
Greg Bobkiewicz
Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
Locke
Before I can answer your question, we have to clear up in which
category I belong.
Am I a goth since I listen to Bauhaus, Alien Sex Fiend, Das Ich,
and Sisters Of Mercy ? Or am I an industrial fan since I listen to
Einstuerzende Neubauten, Laibach, Negativland, and Cabaret Voltaire.
Or am I an idiot since I listen to mainstream bullshit
like U2 and NIN ?
CU,
_ __ ___ _ __ ___ \\|||//
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| |__| || || |_ | \ | _| o...@rz.uni-jena.de (| \ |)
|____|\__/ \__\|_|\_\|___| if you wish \__=__/
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NP: Big Black "Songs About Fucking"
The Lighthouse Keeper
Greg Bobkiewicz wrote:
>
> Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
> industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
> since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
> anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
> jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
This is kind of odd, actually. I think that personally mt taste in
music is more on the industrial side than the "true" goth side. I've
never had any problems with any other goths. <shrug>
Now, I'm not sure I would call industrial "macho." I think it's more
aggressive and sometimes more sinister than some other gothic stuff out
there, but have you heard any of the really hardcore riot grrrl stuff?
Eeek. Talk about macho. ;)
Jocks are silly. I remember when "Pretty Hate Machine" first came
out... and by the way, I STILL view this as the best thing Reznor has
done so far... they really were'nt sure what to make of it. They'd all
been playing New Order and Depeche Mode at thier parties because they
though that made them "Oh So Alternative." "Down In It" hits MTV and
all the sudden every jock at my high school owned at t-shirt, a CD, and
a sticker on the back of thier car. The almighty power of "The Tube"
shoes it's ugly face yet again... convincing these simpletons that not
only is the music that they listen to called industrial... but THEY
themselves are industrial.
Personally, I've not met a jock yet that knows what industrial music
is. Sure... you get the "DUDE! NIN! Turn it up, bro?" or the "Danzig
fuckin' rocks, man!" and, alas, the "Marilyn Manson dude! We're camping
out for tickets at the mall if you want to come. Maybe we can bag a
goth chick...he he he." <sigh> But the fact remains that aside from
some of the more aggressive mainstream acts, these guys have NEVER heard
truly industrial music as you or I would know it. They only know what
they've seen on MTV, Beavis & Butthead, and heard on their favorite top
40 station.
I think really once you sift past the jocks who are just along for the
ride, you'll find that most industrigoths are fairly laid back people,
most of whom are deeply seated into the gothic subculture and who have
no animosity whatsoever towards their "Lycia Loving" brethren. ;)
And as for Industrialists not liking goth music... well... sometimes, on
certain days and in certain moods... I like it more. Then again...
...sometimes I just throw in the Beatles or Roy Orbison. <shrug>
What can I say?
-Fear & Bullets,
The Lighthouse Keeper
--
Katchoo - "Will you kill me if I kiss you?"
Francine - "I'll kill you if you don't." -Strangers In Paradise
jdb...@mindspring.com
gbob...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (Greg Bobkiewicz) wrote:
>Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
>industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
>since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
>anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
>jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
I don't think that's true at all - I think maybe your classification
of 'gothic' needs some clarification...
I think there are at least three kinds of gothic music:
1) "Woe is me" gothic, including Morissey, the Cure
2) Dancey gothic, including Sisters of Mercy, Siouxie,
3) Folk gothic, including Death in June, Current 93, Legendary Pink
Dots
Personally, I can't stand #1, can handle #2, and love #3. I
personally don't have much patience for the pathetic - maybe that's
why many people with industrial taste have deep agression that just
won't stand for depression. You've got to have a place to kick that
big 5-ton boot - it might as well be Robert Smith's face.
John
jdb...@mindspring.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~jdbowen
Mr. Sister
jdb...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> I think there are at least three kinds of gothic music:
>
> 1) "Woe is me" gothic, including Morissey, the Cure
>
> 2) Dancey gothic, including Sisters of Mercy, Siouxie,
>
> 3) Folk gothic, including Death in June, Current 93, Legendary Pink
> Dots
>
There's also ethereal goth - Love Spirals Downwards, Stoa, Collection
d'Arnell-Andrea
traditional (not the right word, but I can't think of anything else)
goth - Dead Can Dance, Ordo Equitum Solis, Eden
industrial goth - Will, Collide, Xorcist
goth bands that can't really be categorized - Faith and the Muse,
Aurora, Love is Colder than Death
I'm sure there are more categories that can be made up, too.
I know a lot of people feel that these aren't goth bands but a lot of
their fanbase is of the gothic persuasion. It's like the word
industrial.. it's lost much of its meaning.
Anyway.. this categorization is off the main topic. I like both gothic
and industrial music, but I certainly don't like all of it. I think
people of the strict industrial persuasion look down on goths because
they often look pitiful, especially male goths. Actually, that seems to
be the look they're going for. It's kind of like the bullies in grade
school... pick on the weak, frail looking kid because you can. Also,
it seems to be a matter of respect. It's hard to repect someone who
always feels sorry for themselves. Don't get me wrong... I know some
very strong, self-respecting goths, but just by looking, it's hard to
differentiate between them and the whiners. It's kind of like a racial
thing. If you have a bias against a certain group, you make
overgeneralizations and can't respect its members unless you get to know
them.
I like some goth music because of its beauty and darkness. My tastes
are mainly for the ethereal gothic stuff and the industrial gothic. For
me there's nothing better than the beauty and darkness of gothic music
mixed with the power of industrial music. That's why I love Collide so
much. I tend not to like the whiny goth stuff because it's weak. Weak
music and weak people don't command much respect. I'm not saying
industrial fans are any better. They have their own problems. I feel
that if you're doing what you want to do, happy with what you're doing,
can sustain that happiness throughout your life, and not hurting others,
then continue whatever the hell it is you're doing. If you're just
doing it to get attention or because it's a cool thing to do, then
you're only hurting yourself, and you better hope someone is there who
gives a shit about you when you crash.
Mr. Sister
--
********************-- mrsi...@ix.netcom.com --*******************
*******-- http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4935 --*******
*-- Visit for gothic/industrial music info and recommendations, --*
******-- band links, concert ratings, and vampire poetry --********
James Cooney
In article <5i2uk0$i...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> gbob...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (Greg Bobkiewicz) writes:
>Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
>industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
>since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
>anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
>jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
You know, I've never understood why Goth is considered the flip side of the
coin. Musically, I consider industrial (when I said industrial, I meant
electro-ebm, maybe even coldwave, not traditional industrial records stuff)
more akin to techno than gothic. Listen to a sisters of mercy song, an old
antler subway techno song, and say a 242 song. Musically, it strikes me as
the techno and 242 are more similar. But hey, what the hell do I know?
jdb...@mindspring.com
"Mr. Sister" <mrsi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>jdb...@mindspring.com wrote:
>>
>> I think there are at least three kinds of gothic music:
>> 1) "Woe is me" gothic, including Morissey, the Cure
>> 2) Dancey gothic, including Sisters of Mercy, Siouxie,
>> 3) Folk gothic, including Death in June, Current 93, Legendary Pink
>> Dots
>I'm sure there are more categories that can be made up, too.
Riiiiiiiight - that's why I went with the 'at LEAST 3' disclaimer. I
didn't want to waste space listing every possible category known to
man.
>Anyway.. this categorization is off the main topic.
How? The question was 'why do people into industrial music don't like
gothic music?' - I certainly don't like some types of gothic music but
adore others...
> I think
>people of the strict industrial persuasion look down on goths because
>they often look pitiful, especially male goths. Actually, that seems to
>be the look they're going for. It's kind of like the bullies in grade
>school... pick on the weak, frail looking kid because you can. Also,
>it seems to be a matter of respect. It's hard to repect someone who
>always feels sorry for themselves. Don't get me wrong... I know some
>very strong, self-respecting goths, but just by looking, it's hard to
>differentiate between them and the whiners. It's kind of like a racial
>thing. If you have a bias against a certain group, you make
>overgeneralizations and can't respect its members unless you get to know
>them.
Exactly. It goes along with the 'angst' look by trying to look as
pitiful as possible so you can cry out in anguish (because you look
like a fool and everyone makes fun of you) to your peers about how
'society doesn't tolerate your true self'. What a bunch of crap -
I've seen many bad-ass looking goths which are amazingly attractive.
It has nothing to do with 'style', it has everything to do with
pulling it off (the clothes and the attitude).
John
jdb...@mindspring.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~jdbowen
daniel landherr
Greg Bobkiewicz (gbob...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote:
: Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
: industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
: since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
: anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
: jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
I actually like a lot of industrial, but not a lot of gothic, simply
because I don't really like gothic. As far as I go to the "goth" side is
Love & Rockets, Bauhaus, and Joy Division. I love industrial because of
the amount of impressive musical artists in the genre. I listen mainly to
original, no-bullshit music. I'm probably too grounded in everyday
reality to like the fantasy escapism implied by "gothic". I guess the
flipside of my coin has bands like Husker Du, The Pixies, Sebadoh, Sonic
Youth, Boredoms, Sugar, Throwing Muses, Beck, Soul Coughing... I really
don't see any conflict between liking those bands and liking Front 242,
EN, Babyland, Skinny Puppy, Cab Volt, Coil, FLA, Foetus, Pigface...
Music is music, listen to the good stuff from all genres (damn, I'm deep)
Dan
The Lighthouse Keeper
Mr. Sister wrote:
Industrial fans may dislike the people but like the music and
> vice versa, so they really are two separate arguments. Petty,
> pretentious goths annoy me, but then petty, pretentious people annoy me
> in general.
There's a saying that "20% of all computer parts are faulty by nature."
I think this applies to people too. I've met goths that I've had to
restrain myself from wringing their scrawny little necks because they're
so effete and snotty. Then again... I've also met some Industrial fans
who live by the "Fuck art, let's kill." mentality. I can't abide that
attitude either.
Infinite Combinations in Infinite Diversity.
Every basket has a few bad apples. You just have to separate those from
the rest and avoid them.
Bottom line is we're all in this together. You meet a few people that
you feel comfortable with... like minded if you will... and usually they
are good for you. I don't think that AS A WHOLE Industrial fans have
ANYTHING against goths. I'm a goth. I'm an Industrial fan. I
certainly don't judge others, ESPECIALLY not my friends, by thier taste
in music any more than I judge them by the clothes they wear or the
color of their skin.
I have problems with people on a case-by-case basis. I don't single out
any one group.
Mr. Sister
jdb...@mindspring.com wrote:
> >Anyway.. this categorization is off the main topic.
>
> How? The question was 'why do people into industrial music don't like
> gothic music?' - I certainly don't like some types of gothic music but
> adore others...
Actually, the topic reads "What do Industrial fans have against
Goths?". I took it to mean the people, not the music. The original
message has expired on my server, so I can't refer to it, and I may be
wrong. Industrial fans may dislike the people but like the music and
vice versa, so they really are two separate arguments. Petty,
pretentious goths annoy me, but then petty, pretentious people annoy me
in general.
Mr. Sister
Thin White Duke
In article <5i2uk0$i...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, gbob...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca
(Greg Bobkiewicz) wrote:
Æ Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
Æ industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
Æ since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
Æ anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
Æ jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
I absolutely loathe gothic music. I think it is *all*, without exception,
complete and utter shite. But what I really hate about the whole
subculture and genre is the fact that it is so inextricably linked with
industrial music, at least here in NYC. You CANNOT go to a club to listen
to industrial music in this city without being subjected to gothic for at
least half the time. The best solution I've found is to go to the Batcave
early, before anyone shows up, when they play industrial from 10 pm on. By
1 am, I know I can leave, because it's just not worth bearing all of the
gothic crap to hear a few industrial songs.
As for goths, in themselves, I don't hold anything against them, except for
the things I also hold against rivetheads, punks, ravers, or anyone who
conforms to any particular subculture, i.e. the fact that these people
think they're being rebellious by acting and dressing in the same way, and
listening to the same music. It's a phase for a lot of people, and I
understand they'll grow out of it. But I really feel sorry for those 30
year olds who are still goths. You gotta grow up sometime.
I think I'm gonna remove the crosspost to alt.gothic because I really don't
feel like having my mailbox flooded by a bunch of whiny goths.
Thin White Duke, just a t-shirt and jeans guy
(np: "Under Pressure" -- Bowie/Queen)
--
"if you can't live with it, find a new channel... rmi *is* about being
elitist, abrasive and hate-filled. the more you're willing to flame, the
better you are. live with it. it's not going to change, nor should it change."
thus spake downfall of the lower case letters.
This new music just ain't got the same air,
I like that old Cabaret Voltaire.
I hate to think about the days of hair
metal bands, gimme Cabaret Voltaire.
Thin White Duke € de...@columbia.edu € http://www.columbia.edu/~dek17
JackieBlue
Locke wrote:
> Am I a goth since I listen to Bauhaus, Alien Sex Fiend, Das Ich,
> and Sisters Of Mercy ? Or am I an industrial fan since I listen to
> Einstuerzende Neubauten, Laibach, Negativland, and Cabaret Voltaire.
> Or am I an idiot since I listen to mainstream bullshit
> like U2 and NIN ?
Or are you just well-rounded with a genuine love for music? *gasp*.
Bravo. Be nice if there were more people that appreciate a little bit
of everything.
blue. (np: Pizzicato 5 "I'm a Groupie")
http://members.tripod.com/~spill/index.html
JackieBlue
Greg Bobkiewicz wrote:
>
> Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
It's simple, really. Goths are pretentious, silly fucks with too much
time on their hands. A lot of them are bored rich kids. A lot of them
have very silly sexual fetishes. I don't dislike goths cause I like
industrial. I like a lot of "goth" music. But I completely despise the
"scene".
The Protagonist
daniel landherr wrote:
>
> Greg Bobkiewicz (gbob...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca) wrote:
> : Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
> : industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
> : since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
> : anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
> : jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
>
> because I don't really like gothic. As far as I go to the "goth" side is
> Love & Rockets, Bauhaus, and Joy Division. I love industrial because of
> the amount of impressive musical artists in the genre. I listen mainly to
> original, no-bullshit music. I'm probably too grounded in everyday
> reality to like the fantasy escapism implied by "gothic". I guess the
> flipside of my coin has bands like Husker Du, The Pixies, Sebadoh, Sonic
> Youth, Boredoms, Sugar, Throwing Muses, Beck, Soul Coughing... I really
> don't see any conflict between liking those bands and liking Front 242,
> EN, Babyland, Skinny Puppy, Cab Volt, Coil, FLA, Foetus, Pigface...
>
> Music is music, listen to the good stuff from all genres (damn, I'm deep)
>
> Dan
In my opinion, the best bands canæ„’ be categorized (Dead Can Dance,
Skinny Puppy, Test Dept., In The Nursery etc.). The most important thing
is not if the music is industrial (European or American?) or not, the
main thing is that the music is good...
/Magnus
--
The Protagonist:
Magnus Sundstrom, Nybohovsbacken 43/rum 232, 117 64 Stockholm, Sweden
Tel/Fax: (+46) 8-19 75 91, e-mail: prota...@swipnet.se
URL: http://home3.swipnet.se/~w-30139/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
For the moment: Contrastate "Mort Aux Vaches"
Elijahæ„€ Mantle "Poets & Visionaries"
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db
>As for goths, in themselves, I don't hold anything against them, except for
>the things I also hold against rivetheads, punks, ravers, or anyone who
>conforms to any particular subculture, i.e. the fact that these people
>think they're being rebellious by acting and dressing in the same way, and
>listening to the same music. It's a phase for a lot of people, and I
>understand they'll grow out of it. But I really feel sorry for those 30
>year olds who are still goths. You gotta grow up sometime.
Y'know who I hate? I hate the guy that looks at anyone who appears different
and decides that individual must be doing something *bad*. That individual is
"conforming"... that individual is "rebelling". It's a phase for alot of
people, and I understand they'll grow out of it. But I really feel sorry for
those 30 year olds who are still snap judging everyone they see. You gotta
grow up sometime.
Seriously though, what the hell do you wear to an industrial club then? I
haven't ever been to a big city club, but I can certainly imagine that when I
do it won't be full of flannel wearing, baggy pants, chili bowl head, cookie
cutter, frat boy clones.
--
rarped
-----------------------
"Queen Pheretima of Kyrene was eaten
alive by intestinally generated maggots"
Herodotus
-----------------------------
daniel landherr
TWD wrote
:As for goths, in themselves, I don't hold anything against them, except for
: the things I also hold against rivetheads, punks, ravers, or anyone who
: conforms to any particular subculture, i.e. the fact that these people
: think they're being rebellious by acting and dressing in the same way, and
: listening to the same music. It's a phase for a lot of people, and I
: understand they'll grow out of it. But I really feel sorry for those 30
: year olds who are still goths. You gotta grow up sometime.
: Thin White Duke, just a t-shirt and jeans guy
: (np: "Under Pressure" -- Bowie/Queen)
The thing that gets me, isn't that they're rebelling, because in a way
they are discarding the mainstream culture for another culture, and people
seem to need some semblance of belonging. What really makes me laugh is
that people say they're expressing their TRUE SELVES by copying a look of
somebody else, or conforming to some strange subculture. I'm just glad
that my true self isn't a boring, tired stereotype. It may be boring (and
it is tired cuz I had to get up at 6am this morning), but at least it
isn't a carbon copy of someone else's true self.
Popeye summed it up best.
Dan
FREE CHRIS RANDALL!
you feel drowsy...
The Lighthouse Keeper wrote:
> There's a saying that "20% of all computer parts are faulty by nature."
> I think this applies to people too.
what, just 20%? somewhere around 99.999999999% would be a more accurate
guess, methinks...
>Then again... I've also met some Industrial fans
> who live by the "Fuck art, let's kill." mentality. I can't abide that
> attitude either.
i have the t-shirt...does that count? actually it doesn't because it
doesn't fit anymore...
have problems with people on a case-by-case basis. I don't single out
> any one group.
i have problems with people as a whole. i wish they would all just fuck
off...
--
Here lies a youth who died of consumption:
you know why
Do not pray for him
downfall
gbob...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (Greg Bobkiewicz) wrote:
> Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
> industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to
> me, since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't
> have anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since
> some jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
part ov my dislike for thee wretch called "goth" is based on thee music, i
fail to see anything interesting there...most artists wish they were
either fat bob smith or another version ov andrew eldritch (sp?)...thee
other part ov my dislike is thee fans, supporters, and lemmings that
associate themselves with thee genre...they tend to seem like they were
devoured by their masquerade characters, and believe they are in thee
midst ov some great rebellion, while, all they *are* doing is conforming
to their genres norm.
-downfall
"the man has no sense of reality" - george drakoulias
adam.
On Fri, 4 Apr 1997, James Cooney wrote:
> In article <5i2uk0$i...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> gbob...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (Greg Bobkiewicz) writes:
>
> >Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
> >industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
> >since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
> >anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
> >jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
>
> You know, I've never understood why Goth is considered the flip side of the
> coin. Musically, I consider industrial (when I said industrial, I meant
> electro-ebm, maybe even coldwave, not traditional industrial records stuff)
> more akin to techno than gothic. Listen to a sisters of mercy song, an old
> antler subway techno song, and say a 242 song. Musically, it strikes me as
> the techno and 242 are more similar. But hey, what the hell do I know?
PERSONALLY, ever since it was pointed out to me, i've always considered
punk to be the flip side of industrial--the rebellion against
establishment (in punk, meaning society; in "old-school inustrial", art
and society) and their approximately common time and location of
inception lend the strongest links. though the industrial musicians were
(and in
some cases, still are) a bit more thought-provoking than their punk
brothers-in-arms. but, i listen to both punk and industrial, so that may
also bias my decision. of course, i just may have no fucking clue about
what i'm talking about.
adam.
On 4 Apr 1997, db wrote:
>
> >As for goths, in themselves, I don't hold anything against them, except for
> >the things I also hold against rivetheads, punks, ravers, or anyone who
> >conforms to any particular subculture, i.e. the fact that these people
> >think they're being rebellious by acting and dressing in the same way, and
> >listening to the same music. It's a phase for a lot of people, and I
> >understand they'll grow out of it. But I really feel sorry for those 30
> >year olds who are still goths. You gotta grow up sometime.
>
> Y'know who I hate? I hate the guy that looks at anyone who appears different
> and decides that individual must be doing something *bad*. That individual is
> "conforming"... that individual is "rebelling". It's a phase for alot of
> people, and I understand they'll grow out of it. But I really feel sorry for
> those 30 year olds who are still snap judging everyone they see. You gotta
> grow up sometime.
>
> Seriously though, what the hell do you wear to an industrial club then? I
> haven't ever been to a big city club, but I can certainly imagine that when I
> do it won't be full of flannel wearing, baggy pants, chili bowl head, cookie
> cutter, frat boy clones.
i like the fact that the duke gets debated with on the most profound
thing i've seen him say in the past coupla months.
adam the Superegotist.
foe
die.spa...@address.in.sig (Thin White Duke) writes:
> But what I really hate about the whole
> subculture and genre is the fact that it is so inextricably linked with
> industrial music, at least here in NYC.
I pretty agree with you. Here in Montreal you can not go to a so
called industrial party without having the bad surprise that in fact
it's an EBM-Goth party. Industrial is now a synonym for Got. Look at
the HMV (Music Store) they filed under Industrial Bauhaus and Joy
Division, Christian Death and so on. Well i admit that some bands are
between gothic and indus, but initialy they were far different.
I prefer to say that Gothic is sometimes a synonym for Rivethead.
Look at all parties here in bars. About 5 or 6 different each week.
About one per night. I went to these. The ppl there where dancing like
zombies "Oh god, look i must be wicked and weird, i'm a very bad
dancer". I also danced there. I feel guilty not to wear dark clothes.
I'm pretty sure i'm for a longer time into this music than them. Why
do they look so ugly at me because a wear jeans and t-shirts?
Most of them use the same idolatry for goth music than the pre-teens
for New Kids on the Blocks, yes i know they changed their names... mmm
what are they called now?
That's what i have against Goths.
I'm not a rivet head. I'm a post-punk new waver who discovered that
the music i was listening to was called industrial.
Dimitri aka foe
Slavemaster @
http://dust.net/
Musique et culture industrielle.
Typographie et graphisme.
JackieBlue
you feel drowsy... wrote:
>
> JackieBlue wrote:
> > It's simple, really. Goths are pretentious, silly fucks with too much
> > time on their hands. A lot of them are bored rich kids.
>
> we're all, y'know, *industrial*, like we work in factories and stuff,
> and we're alienated from mankind and the products we make, and like
> certainly there are no bored rich kids into industrial...i'm sure it's
> only inner city youth or homeless people who are shelling out the $$ for
> redundant cleopatra comps w/ those groovy hologram covers..."workers of
> the world untie, or something"...
Oh pish posh. I didn't mean to imply that the things I hate about goths
aren't the things I hate about, well, EVERYONE. Yeah, there are bored
rich kids into EVERYTHING. And there are pretentious fucks (who use,
for example, silly alternate spellings of commonplace words) in every
subgenre too. Anyway, I wouldn't CALL myself "industrial". I don't
DRESS "industrial". I wear what's interesting to me. If it's some old
vinyl "pimp" jacket from the 70s, so be it. If it's just faded
corduroys and a plain blue t-shirt, so be it. Anyone who spends a long,
long time on constructing their "look", meticulously applying makeup and
getting the fishnet shirt just SO, obviously doesn't have a whole lot
going on upstairs. Usually it's just the same old crap; "I'm gonna wear
my [goth/raver/industrial/punk/etc] Uniform so I can be "identified" by
my "group" and we can huddle up together." HEAVEN FORBID people should
have DIVERSE friends. Oh no. We need our precious banners.
blue. (np: Flaming Lips "Hit Me Like You Did the First Time")
http://members.tripod.com/~spill/index.html
po...@acsu.buffalo.edu
industrial music has "life", the motion of rage, the incandescent
light of wrath. Industrial tackles (perhaps philosophically) the
unanswerable question of humanity...a world where man is both fascinated
and frightened by machines, a love/hate relationship bordering on a
musical sadomasochism. industrial music pits the creator(human) against
the created(machine).
gothic...well, for me has been sterile, trapped in this
shelleyesque romanticism, escapist, as frigid as a vampire, lifeless as a
corpse, groans and moans as fate seals the world like a tomb.
and the people...geez. although i praise their creativity with
make-up...it's just so...ech!
like the cog that fits perfectly in the machine...in
dustrial simplicity is more attractive that baroque-ish gothyness.
"and persepolis burned up to the sky"
ares
Donald & Leigh Anne Harvill
Thin White Duke wrote:
>
> Greg Bobkiewicz wrote:
>
> Ć Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
> Ć industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
> Ć since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
> Ć anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
> Ć jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
>
> I absolutely loathe gothic music. I think it is *all*, without exception,
> complete and utter shite.
I actually own some goth stuff: Bauhaus & Sisters of Mercy (both early
innovators) & Alien Sex Fiend. What makes ASF stand out (to me) in the
crowd of current goth is that they have managed to innovate (such as the
recent "Inferno" all-electronic video game soundtrack), blend goth with
other forms (i.e. the "Haunted House" single), and display a sense of
dada and humor (sadly lacking in most goth). Meanwhile, for the most
part, industrial *has* progressed from point A to point B and generally
defied getting stuck into a single genre formula as has goth (although
this is a trap we need to avoid). It seems clear to me that the two
genres are not "flip sides of the same coin." for the above reasons;
industrial innovates where goth imitates.
> But what I really hate about the whole
> subculture and genre is the fact that it is so inextricably linked with
> industrial music, at least here in NYC.
This has never made sense to me as well. But I'm writing from NE TN,
where there is no industrial nor goth scene at all -- Donald R. Harvill
(and yes, I was a member of a fraternity when I was in college, but
that's a long story best left untold, other than to say I was never a
stereotypical "fratboy")
-----
(Now Playing: Everything But the Girl vs. Drum 'n' Bass "Walking
Wounded")
" 'What sort of people made this music? Who are they? And what planet
are they from?' That was my first reaction upon hearing Cabaret
Voltaire's 1979 record 'Nag Nag Nag,' and this has been the overriding
factor and key influence upon my musical taste, preferences, and ideas
ever since." -- Tim Gane of Stereolab
Todd Clayton
Greg Bobkiewicz wrote:
>
> Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
I'm an industrial fan and I'm marrying a goth. Go figure.
I find the clothes a little silly, but I like the music, or at
least I like where goth came from (the Fringes, like Siouxsie and
the sisters.)
Goths are just easy to make fun of, in this world of political
correctness.
--
Visit the web page! Feel the power of Jee-zuhs!
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
| DJ Todd aka Todd Clayton |
| Email: djt...@globalserve.net |
| The Armageddon Web Page: http://www.globalserve.net/~djtodd |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
Jacques L Capesius
Question 1: Music fan nuisance factor (choose the answer that best fits)
It's just like every other genre: the ___________'s who take themselves
too seriously wind up being a bunch of stuck up pretencious clusterfucks,
while the ___________'s who can poke fun of themselves and respect other
genre's/opinions/points of view are the easiest to get along with.
a. Industriophiles
b. polkaholics
c. rudeboys
e. goffs
d. line dancers
f. zydeco lovers
g. a,b,f
h. g
i. all of the above
the correct answer is f. zydeco lovers. the rest of us just plain old suck
sorry everybody. -bac0n :)
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Jacques Capesius "Killing one man is murder. Killing a million,
cape...@maroon.tc.umn.edu that's genocide." -Joseph Stalin
you feel drowsy...
JackieBlue wrote:
> It's simple, really. Goths are pretentious, silly fucks with too much
> time on their hands. A lot of them are bored rich kids.
snicker...that's pretty good...cos of course "industrial" means that
we're all, y'know, *industrial*, like we work in factories and stuff,
and we're alienated from mankind and the products we make, and like
certainly there are no bored rich kids into industrial...i'm sure it's
only inner city youth or homeless people who are shelling out the $$ for
redundant cleopatra comps w/ those groovy hologram covers..."workers of
the world untie, or something"...
--
gj...@lehigh.edu
>In article <5i2uk0$i...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, gbob...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca
>(Greg Bobkiewicz) wrote:
>
>Æ industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
>Æ since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
>Æ anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
>Æ jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
>
>I absolutely loathe gothic music. I think it is *all*, without exception,
>subculture and genre is the fact that it is so inextricably linked with
>to industrial music in this city without being subjected to gothic for at
>least half the time. The best solution I've found is to go to the Batcave
Well, you have to realize that neither goth or industrial are big enough
genres to stand alone at a club. In most cities, a pure industrial or goth
night can't make it, so in order to have something, and because of whatever
supposed link the styles have, they combine the two. I'm not the biggest goth
fan either, but I'd rather have a night that plays at least some industrial
instead of nothing at all.
>early, before anyone shows up, when they play industrial from 10 pm on. By
>1 am, I know I can leave, because it's just not worth bearing all of the
>gothic crap to hear a few industrial songs.
>
>As for goths, in themselves, I don't hold anything against them, except for
>the things I also hold against rivetheads, punks, ravers, or anyone who
>conforms to any particular subculture, i.e. the fact that these people
>think they're being rebellious by acting and dressing in the same way, and
>listening to the same music. It's a phase for a lot of people, and I
>understand they'll grow out of it. But I really feel sorry for those 30
>year olds who are still goths. You gotta grow up sometime.
>
I just don't like the damn mopey "Oh god the world is pain and I'm so
depressed mentality that alot (notice I didn't say all) of the music seems to
have. Come on people. Stop whining and actually do something with your life.
>I think I'm gonna remove the crosspost to alt.gothic because I really don't
>feel like having my mailbox flooded by a bunch of whiny goths.
>
>Thin White Duke, just a t-shirt and jeans guy
>(np: "Under Pressure" -- Bowie/Queen)
>
>--
>"if you can't live with it, find a new channel... rmi *is* about being
>elitist, abrasive and hate-filled. the more you're willing to flame, the
>better you are. live with it. it's not going to change, nor should it change.
"
>thus spake downfall of the lower case letters.
>
>This new music just ain't got the same air,
>I like that old Cabaret Voltaire.
>I hate to think about the days of hair
>metal bands, gimme Cabaret Voltaire.
>
>Thin White Duke € de...@columbia.edu € http://www.columbia.edu/~dek17
>
Greg "who's going to be Goth until he's 90"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "In America, first you get de sugar, den |"All right Mulder. Who died this|
| you get de power, den you get de women!" |time?" |
| -Homer Simpson |-Dana Scully "The X-Files" |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "We're not the same. I'm an American. |"I've driven women to lesbianism |
| You're a sick asshole!" |before but never to an asylum!" |
Greycat
In article <334559...@planetc.com>, god...@planetc.com says...
Greycat
Greycat
In article <5i34t9$p...@camel2.mindspring.com>, jdb...@mindspring.com
says...
> gbob...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (Greg Bobkiewicz) wrote:
>
> >Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
>
> of 'gothic' needs some clarification...
>
> I think there are at least three kinds of gothic music:
>
> 1) "Woe is me" gothic, including Morissey, the Cure
>
> 2) Dancey gothic, including Sisters of Mercy, Siouxie,
>
> 3) Folk gothic, including Death in June, Current 93, Legendary Pink
> Dots
>
> personally don't have much patience for the pathetic - maybe that's
> why many people with industrial taste have deep agression that just
> won't stand for depression. You've got to have a place to kick that
> big 5-ton boot - it might as well be Robert Smith's face.
>
>
> John
> jdb...@mindspring.com
> http://www.mindspring.com/~jdbowen
>
>
Well...ya know...I'm an odd girl...I love The cure, yet my second
favorite band is Skinny puppy...odd ain't it? If you actually looked at
my cd collection, you'd find more industrial than goth, but yet, I
consider myself to be a "goth"...I find alot of Ddepression, <which IS a
type of anger> in industrial...it's just taken out a different way.
Greycat
> >
> > Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
> > industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
> > since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
> > anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
> > jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
>
> have very silly sexual fetishes. I don't dislike goths cause I like
> industrial. I like a lot of "goth" music. But I completely despise the
> "scene".
>
> blue.
> http://members.tripod.com/~spill/index.html
>
rich kid <hey I eat on $15 a week!> nor do I have any weird sexual
fetishes. I think it's rather pretentious of you to make general
staements as the one's above, putting yourself above others because they
don't fit your standard is "pretentious" don't you think?
Greycat
Christabel La Motte
In <3345B5...@ix.netcom.com>,
you feel drowsy... <user...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> The Lighthouse Keeper wrote:
>
> > There's a saying that "20% of all computer parts are faulty by nature."
> > I think this applies to people too.
>
> what, just 20%? somewhere around 99.999999999% would be a more accurate
> guess, methinks...
Sturgeon's Law, eh? ;)
--
Christabel La Motte *quack quack* Washington, DC
PLEASE NOTE: The grendel.net address in the From: line is a spamtrap;
all mail sent there is automatically deleted. To contact me directly,
please send mail to lamotte @ sub-rosa . com (remove the spaces first!)
Dmentia
po...@acsu.buffalo.edu wrote:
> industrial music has "life", the motion of rage, the incandescent
> light of wrath. Industrial tackles (perhaps philosophically) the
> unanswerable question of humanity...a world where man is both fascinated
> and frightened by machines, a love/hate relationship bordering on a
> musical sadomasochism. industrial music pits the creator(human) against
> the created(machine).
>
Very true polet. I am both a goth and an industrial fan. In college,
many moons
ago in the very late 80s, I was complete goth...right down to the makeup
and pointy boots. I still like to "dress" but have modified the rigorous
fashion
code I used to live by now that I have to work for a living. In my last
two years
at school, I discovered that much of industrial, while being futuristic
in its use of technology, has a very goth-esque nihilism to it. I love both
forms of music.
I don't think I'm alone in this, so the subject line of this post puzzles me. I
guess I've just been lucky to find that in my travels goths and industrialists
have always successfully socialized.
Dmentia
^^ The address given has been altered to prevent receipt of unwanted offers and solicitations. ^^
Douglas A Bicknese
I think overall the two communities get along OK. To answer the post
earlier I think they are lumped together because they all came out of
that same "alternative" movement during the 80's (as in pre-Nirvana, Pearl
Jam, etc), not because of musical similaraties (although there is a lot
of crossover). All of it was that
stuff that the "freaks" listened to, and at least in most of the places I
shopped at, it was all lumped in its own section in the back - punk,
goth, industrial, EBM, and weird stuff as well. The punk
stuff seems to have fallen into obscurity and the more conventional stuff
like REM, Smiths, etc became acceptable as "alternative". Since
"alternative" was co-opted by the major labels...places trying to promote
a less mainstream atmosphere would apply more descriptive labels to
the music they played, which was pretty much gothic and industrial. These
have been fused into new goth-industrial description.
I think the two subcultures get along OK for the most part. The people
I've met who don't like the goths seem to have one of two reasons. The
first is the belief that all goths are pretentious, sissys or both. Like
most stereotypes, a casual examination usually proves this wrong, but a
few bad apples always manage to perpetuate the image. The second is a
more
snotty one, which is that goths are stuck in a rut and should get with the
times. I think that this is because in most clubs, goth playlists are
usually limited to about 10-15 songs, most of them being 5-15 years old.
Meanwhile the industrial stuff is usually hot off the presses. I think
the analogy would be a night that advertises industrial music and only
plays stuff like "join in the chant", "headhunter", "welcome to paradise"
and "everyday is halloween".
--
Douglas August Bicknese
you feel drowsy...
Christabel La Motte wrote:
> > > There's a saying that "20% of all computer parts are faulty by nature."
> > > I think this applies to people too.
> >
> > what, just 20%? somewhere around 99.999999999% would be a more accurate
> > guess, methinks...
>
> Sturgeon's Law, eh? ;)
sturgeon's law is really only 98%, isn't it?
he was too forgiving...
np: black light district "chalice"
you feel drowsy...
Douglas A Bicknese wrote:
>
> I think overall the two communities get along OK. To answer the post
> earlier I think they are lumped together because they all came out of
> that same "alternative" movement during the 80's (as in pre-Nirvana, >Pearl Jam, etc)
you missed a decade.
both goth* and industrial started in the mid-70s...
*if you consider siouxsie and bauhaus et al. goth....
np: aphex twin "-"
hope raudive
foe wrote:
> I prefer to say that Gothic is sometimes a synonym for Rivethead.
> Look at all parties here in bars. About 5 or 6 different each week.
> About one per night. I went to these. The ppl there where dancing like
> zombies "Oh god, look i must be wicked and weird, i'm a very bad
> dancer".
well, it sure beats the rivet-head stomp :)
> I also danced there. I feel guilty not to wear dark clothes.
> I'm pretty sure i'm for a longer time into this music than them. Why
> do they look so ugly at me because a wear jeans and t-shirts?
uh, because they're poseurs...seriously...meet any of the people who are
dressed up but aren't total idiots and chances are they won't even notice
the way you're dressed...
> Most of them use the same idolatry for goth music than the pre-teens
> for New Kids on the Blocks, yes i know they changed their names... mmm
> what are they called now?
heheheheh :) can't argue that...
</hope>
geeky synth-phag-industrial-boy-goth-nrrrd
***************************************************************
* *
* chaos in beauty *
* *
* the official raudive voices info. page *
* *
* http://www.pitt.edu/~jwmst37/voices/ *
* *
***************************************************************
"I personally hold to the beleif that the world would be a much
better place if everone was just like me. Not as interesting,
mind you, just better. You can quote me on that if you like."
- william c. isenhour
***************************************************************
* jwm...@pitt.edu <hope> <hoponhope> <hopeless> on #amnin *
* jwm...@psu.edu r.m.i. nin-nazi/a.m.nin regular *
***************************************************************
"You have now made it into my .sig file. Just thought you
should know."
- raeven, the temptress
hope raudive
db wrote:
> Seriously though, what the hell do you wear to an industrial club then? I
> haven't ever been to a big city club, but I can certainly imagine that when I
> do it won't be full of flannel wearing, baggy pants, chili bowl head, cookie
> cutter, frat boy clones.
well, if you live near phila., go the bank sometime...now, first, you'll
notice everyone's wearing black...no biggie...then, go meet a few people
there...it won't take long to realize that there are some people who fit
your description perfectly, except that they try to be something they're
not on goth night
personally, i prefer the way my friend darth deals with it...he wears
jeans, t-shirts, and a jean jacket during the week...he looks more like
roger daltrey from the who than peter murphy...but when he goes out on
goth-industrial night, he doesn't change a damn thing...and i respect him
more than you can imagine for that...and, chances are, anyone who would
actually criticize him for that isn't worth shit...
smith.
die.spa...@address.in.sig (Thin White Duke) wrote:
>As for goths, in themselves, I don't hold anything against them, except for
>the things I also hold against rivetheads, punks, ravers, or anyone who
>conforms to any particular subculture, i.e. the fact that these people
>think they're being rebellious by acting and dressing in the same way,
agreed...it's good to see there are people here who dress normally and in
a utilitarian way (for me, it's black jeans, black t-shirt or turtleneck)
because i never understand what's so bloody "goth" about spending an ex-
travagant amount of money on silly-looking clothes, it's all so hollow
and artificial, and artifice is fine as a stage act, etc (i'm a bowie fan
too), but when you build your -life- on it, then you're trapped...
chris asbestos aka dj orko
hope raudive
Thin White Duke wrote:
> As for goths, in themselves, I don't hold anything against them, except for
> the things I also hold against rivetheads, punks, ravers, or anyone who
> conforms to any particular subculture, i.e. the fact that these people
> think they're being rebellious by acting and dressing in the same way, and
> listening to the same music. It's a phase for a lot of people, and I
> understand they'll grow out of it. But I really feel sorry for those 30
> year olds who are still goths. You gotta grow up sometime.
> I think I'm gonna remove the crosspost to alt.gothic because I really don't
> feel like having my mailbox flooded by a bunch of whiny goths.
heheh...yer not getting way that easily!
actually, as a member of the goth elite branch no. 667, i have to admit
that there's nothing more annoying than going to a club and seeing a
bunch of whiny, snotty little kids (of all ages, i won't limit it to 12
year olds like most would) wearing their "dress-up" clothes and
pretending that they're some bizarre hybrid of david bowie, the crow, and
trent reznor...and, on top of it, they think they're rebellious! haha!!!
on the other hand, though, a good number of the goths, those who actually
are involved with producing the music/art/literature/fashion of the
scene, those who recognize and avoid the cliches, do *not* base any
aspect of their "goth-ness" on being rebellious...i think most
intelligent goths realize that their style is nothing new, and realize
that their style really doesn't mean much out of the "ooh...look at the
pretty boy/girl/both :)" context...of course, the majority are still
idiots, but that's the way it is with any subculture...i think it would
be worse for me to refuse wearing pretty things (although, admittedly, i
prefer blue and grey to black...yech) that i like because there are a
bunch of idiot-goths dressing the same way than it would be for me to
continue wearing whatever the hell i find attractive regardless of the
associations people who don't know me would make...
of course, if you know me and realize i'm an idiot, that's a different
story :)
> Thin White Duke, just a t-shirt and jeans guy
hmmm....jock, frat-boy, or lumberjack? :)
sorry, just feel a need to label everything right now...
> (np: "Under Pressure" -- Bowie/Queen)
y'know, i can generally respect people for not liking goth music, but i
know from your posts that you like both "the process" and david bowie in
general...now, i realize neither puppy nor bowie are goth, per the cliche
standards of "goth", but it's wierd to me that you loathe a subculture
which was almost totally based around bowie and bowie-clones when it
first started...just a ? (i think there's a ? in there, somewhere)
btw, fwiw, i think most "goth" music sucks...but, then again, what i
consider "goth" is more stuff like the last few puppy albums, diamond
dogs-low-period bowie, down in the park-style numan stuff (especially
"absolution" off his soon-to-be-released album "exile"), the last few
depeche mode albums, etc...i can totally understand hatred of the
repetitive, uninspired (strange, but i always thought the foundations of
"goth" rested on overdramitic inspired emotional music, but, oh, well...)
sisters of mercy/joy division/bauhaus rip-off bands and later the same
bands incorporating nine inch nails/skinny puppy production values...i
mean, where's the challenge that early dark musicians were making in the
musical world? hell, even the writers and artists usually have something
interesting to say (clive barker, h.r. geiger...yeah, there are cliche'
goth artists too)...but, anyway, to me, personally, goth *should* be more
like the above artists, plus paginini, liszt, hell, i'd put pink floyd on
a quick list of artists that blended melancholy/passionate concepts, and
i'd include coil, to the dismay of most industrial fans (like they care
about a whiny goth's opinions :)
anyway, it seems to me like their are two similar but distinct goth
movements...there's the movement that is fascinated with moping, baroque
themes, and general stagnation...but there's also the flip side which
includes the artists/fans/whatever who want to push the envelope, to
avoid cliche while at the same time trying to create dark, atmospheric
works of art...yeah, they're easily confused, but i think there's an
important difference between them
(end of rant)
also, a quick ? to r.m.i. in general: why is it that skinny puppy is
considered industrial but a similar-sounding band from the same time
period, executive slacks, is considered goth? i've been wondering that
for ages...
</hope "sick of the goth scene - don't kill me b.j.p. or ankou :)"
raudive>
db
>personally, i prefer the way my friend darth deals with it...he wears
>jeans, t-shirts, and a jean jacket during the week...he looks more like
>roger daltrey from the who than peter murphy...but when he goes out on
>goth-industrial night, he doesn't change a damn thing...and i respect him
>more than you can imagine for that...and, chances are, anyone who would
>actually criticize him for that isn't worth shit...
Ah, you're probably right. On the other hand, when I get the chance to be in
an industrial atmosphere, I dress like I'm going out. Y'know, get a little
freaked out and have a good time. I guess I just have a different approach to
the whole thing.
--
rarped
-----------------------
"Queen Pheretima of Kyrene was eaten
alive by intestinally generated maggots"
Herodotus
-----------------------------
Icabod C. Price
>foe wrote:
>
>> I prefer to say that Gothic is sometimes a synonym for Rivethead.
>> Look at all parties here in bars. About 5 or 6 different each week.
>> About one per night. I went to these. The ppl there where dancing like
>> zombies "Oh god, look i must be wicked and weird, i'm a very bad
>> dancer".
>
>well, it sure beats the rivet-head stomp :)
>
>> I also danced there. I feel guilty not to wear dark clothes.
>> I'm pretty sure i'm for a longer time into this music than them. Why
>> do they look so ugly at me because a wear jeans and t-shirts?
>
>uh, because they're poseurs...seriously...meet any of the people who are
>dressed up but aren't total idiots and chances are they won't even notice
>the way you're dressed...
>
>> Most of them use the same idolatry for goth music than the pre-teens
>> for New Kids on the Blocks, yes i know they changed their names... mmm
>> what are they called now?
>
>heheheheh :) can't argue that...
>
></hope>
>
>geeky synth-phag-industrial-boy-goth-nrrrd
>
>
<snip o' sigs>
Well I believe that You cannot truely have gothic (dancy type) with out
Industrial, it just goes too much hand in hand. But Industtialites are a
little more segregated from goth than dancy goth is from industrial.
And I do not believe that the reason Industrialites segregate them seleves from
goths/dislike gothic music/people is becuse of the machismo that goes along
with the "Industrial image". The industrialites that live by the "Fuck art,
Kill all" atitude are more poseuristic to me. I'd have to say I'm fairly
industrial, I much prefer Industrail to gothic (dancy).
Goths to me tend to goway ovarboard, which is part of the goth thing, but I
as an industrailite can see the reason why there is some dislike between
the groups. Industrialites tend to be more minimalists, wont go overboard
on makeup/weird clothing, which is a goth thing. But Darkness goes with
both, so seeing someone clad in black is usualy the thing. Oh well just my
oppinion.
Maybe I'll follow up with more later when I happen to be more concious.
--
God I hate /LONG/ .sig files.
Um if you can't figure out my e-mail addr, you don't deserve to know.
"If it takes up more RAM, that's OBVIOUSLY what we want!" -Me
Sundar Subramanian
> Greg Bobkiewicz wrote:
>>
>> Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
>> industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
>> since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
>> anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
>> jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
>
I don't quite understand why people link goth w/ industrial. Gothic music
and culture is about fantasy escapism. Industrial, to me, is about making
a comment on reality through sounds & words, more akin to dystopian
literature than to vampire romances.
--
...when the seasons circle sideways out of turn & words don't speak just
fall across the carpet you're just in time to watch the fires burn...
-Sonic Youth, MOTE
Thin White Duke
In article
<Pine.GSO.3.95.970404...@autarch.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
po...@acsu.buffalo.edu wrote:
Æ industrial music has "life", the motion of rage, the incandescent
Æ light of wrath. Industrial tackles (perhaps philosophically) the
Æ unanswerable question of humanity...a world where man is both fascinated
Æ and frightened by machines, a love/hate relationship bordering on a
Æ musical sadomasochism. industrial music pits the creator(human) against
Æ the created(machine).
Æ
Æ gothic...well, for me has been sterile, trapped in this
Æ shelleyesque romanticism, escapist, as frigid as a vampire, lifeless as a
Æ corpse, groans and moans as fate seals the world like a tomb.
Æ
I think you hit on the big link between gothic and industrial music here.
The fans of both genres take their music FAR too seriously.
hel's -synic-
On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 16:49:07 GMT, jdb...@mindspring.com did cunningly
address to alt.gothic..
:"Mr. Sister" <mrsi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
:>jdb...@mindspring.com wrote:
:>> I think there are at least three kinds of gothic music:
:>> 1) "Woe is me" gothic, including Morissey, the Cure
I think Morrissey would laugh at the concept of being labelled "gothic."
He's more the British Pop sort of singer, I'd have thought.
:Exactly. It goes along with the 'angst' look by trying to look as
:pitiful as possible so you can cry out in anguish (because you look
:like a fool and everyone makes fun of you) to your peers about how
:'society doesn't tolerate your true self'.
Sounds a bit more like the Hollywood depiction of goth. Anyone who does
that sort of stuff in any real-life goth scene gets written off pretty
early as a wannabe. Same thing, too, for the *.gothic newsgroups usually.
:What a bunch of crap -
:I've seen many bad-ass looking goths which are amazingly attractive.
:It has nothing to do with 'style', it has everything to do with
:pulling it off (the clothes and the attitude).
Whatever the goth scene is, the one thing you can be sure of is the same
range of personalities, interests and dress styles as in any other neck of
the woods. Take a look at the Goth Code and some peoples .signatures that
have one (I know, I know; looks like a site-promo, but, you get that) and
you'll get an idea of how damned diverse people outside the stereotypes
are.
--
.---+- Goth.Code 3.0 GoSS6Hu6AS6 TGJtSe5 PSaMoL B8/G"1@ cDBRw6S V7s . Peter T .
| : M3p2D ZNrGoPu C6o A25- n4F b55 H173 g7T??91FYbt mEa2@Z3 | Caffin, |
| _oo__ w6T v3 r3]1[EIs p777Z5Ed D64~!* h7(P!) sM8M SrNn k6! | Hel's |
' //`'\_ N1293FNEwCW HsS LauWA6 .. http://www.omen.com.au/~synic ' -Synic- '
/
Dave Scott
db wrote:
> Seriously though, what the hell do you wear to an industrial club then? I
> haven't ever been to a big city club, but I can certainly imagine that when I
> do it won't be full of flannel wearing, baggy pants, chili bowl head, cookie
> cutter, frat boy clones.
>
You wear anything you want. Who says you have to dress up in funny
costumes? I've been to plenty of "Industrial" clubs in big cities and
small cities, everywhere from Montreal to London to Chicago to New York
City. I usually wear jeans and a t-shirt. I'm there to hear the music,
not to take part in a fashion show. I get some funny looks from the
trendy people because I don't "look" like an Industrial music fan, but
I've been in the music scene for a long long time so I really don't care
what they think.
Just wear what you usually wear when you go out on the town.
db
>agreed...it's good to see there are people here who dress normally and in
>a utilitarian way (for me, it's black jeans, black t-shirt or turtleneck)
>because i never understand what's so bloody "goth" about spending an ex-
>travagant amount of money on silly-looking clothes, it's all so hollow
Hey, I'm right there with you! I wear what I own that's black or grey. I've
also got a nice green and a nice blue shirt. I like to wear overshirt weave
kinda things, too, cause it's cold in Champaign. I look at myself as dressing
rather nondescript, sublte, quiet, but I do wear what fits my mood and I don't
like to spend money on my appearance. I am a piercing virgin and intend to
stay that way until I can get one for free [the ring, too!]
>and artificial, and artifice is fine as a stage act, etc (i'm a bowie fan
>too), but when you build your -life- on it, then you're trapped...
Ah, hrm... maybe right. Am I trapped in my life that causes me to wear dark
clothes? Or is it my personality that is trapped in a mode that causes me to
wear dark clothes? I feel pretty much in the same vein as you and still could
be considered trapped... we're pretty equal. I think I'll wear whatever
catches my eye, though...
db
>You wear anything you want. Who says you have to dress up in funny
>Just wear what you usually wear when you go out on the town.
Hey, these two statements are contradictory! When I go out, it is to go
*out* for a night on the town. I get a little freaked out because I enjoy it
alot. Don't get me wrong, freaked out might just be a little gel in the hair.
What I want to wear is a little freaked out, yet statement two says wear what I
usually wear. What I usually wear is based on utility because I'm a student
who walks to all my classes, not enjoyment.
Sean Doran
dlan...@ub.d.umn.edu (daniel landherr) writes:
> I'm just glad that my true self isn't a boring, tired
> stereotype. It may be boring (and it is tired cuz I had
> to get up at 6am this morning), but at least it isn't a
> carbon copy of someone else's true self.
What's really ironic is that this is in essence what
several people have taken up the chant of
WE ARE MORE INDIVIDUAL THAN THEY ARE
which in western cultures has been a tribal theme among
youth for the past two hundred years and change. The
Incroyables vs the other youth factions during the
Directoire in France come to mind right off the top of my
head as being directly parallel to this thread right now.
> What really makes me laugh is that people say they're
> expressing their TRUE SELVES by copying a look of
> somebody else,
Tribalism is pretty human. You might consider it as
having two scales: depth and constancy.
Shallow tribal affiliations might extend to sports fans in
the off-season, for example, or to people who buy a
particular album because another member of the tribe
(particularly a tribal leader) recommends it. Deep tribal
affiliations are seen in sports fanatics during playoffs
(the ones who eat think and breathe thinking about their
team, who collect all the stats on all his or her team's
members, who stayed glued to TV sets and sports mags
following everything), and in ultragoths or
ultrarivetheads or the like. Extremely deep tribalism
usually involves violence against members of other tribes --
violent skinheads come to mind, or vitriolic abuse
hurled on r.m.i. about goths, for example.
Another way of looking at is that depth measures the
degree to which a person has adopted the style of the tribe.
Constancy is simply a measure of depth over time. Someone
who is a total sports fan for a particular team only when
it looks like they're going to win the Stanley Cup lacks
constancy whereas someone who was a fan of the Toronto
Maple Leafs in the 70s and 80s as well as, say, 1993,
possesses it. Likewise, one can compare the constancy of
people who go out all gothed up only on club nights and
those who wear black and makeup and shiny jewellery only
when they're breathing.
Someone who affiliates with a tribe (or a style or a look
or a sports team) deeply or constantly or both is likely
making a valid claim about expressing his or her "TRUE
SELF" at the moment, as these affiliations usually seem to
be genuine.
Of course, to an observer, someone who lacks constancy but
possesses (often extreme) depth likely would be considered
a poseur or a trendy or a fair-weather fan. This is true
in any scene or tribe, be it made of goths or sports-fans.
Such people might well say they are expressing their "TRUE
SELVES", but I doubt anyone would seriously agree with
them unless there is some constancy to the depth of their
tribal affiliation. Most people change affiliations with
tribes regularly until they find what they're comfortable
with, at which point some degree of constancy of depth
of affiliation sets in, with possibile occasional peaks or
troughs.
To mock the process of affiliating with a tribe of some
sort, be it a musical or stylistic subculture, a sports
team, a political philosophy, or a religion is ludicrous
unless one is a sociopath who affiliates with nothing.
Although I'm sure it's tempting for some to call the
r.m.i. people mocking goths sociopathic, really what
appears to be happening is inter-tribal friction with
masks covering up the depth of each party's tribal
affiliation to one or the other camp.
> Popeye summed it up best.
It would have been better if Popeye had been a bit more
existentialist: I yam what I have made of myself through
acts of will as a free and responsible person.
If that happens to be a club-night ultragoth cum daytime
jock, who are you to say that is not her or his TRUE SELF?
Sean.
[DANOS]
Greg Bobkiewicz wrote:
>
> Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
> industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
> since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
> anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
> jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
i think perhaps its because of the "glam" often associated with goths.
most of the industrialists i know tend to live more simple lives.
-[DANOS]-
Francis X. Connor
JackieBlue (god...@planetc.com) wrote:
: It's simple, really. Goths are pretentious, silly fucks with too much
: time on their hands. A lot of them are bored rich kids. A lot of them
: have very silly sexual fetishes. I don't dislike goths cause I like
: industrial. I like a lot of "goth" music. But I completely despise the
: "scene".
Ummm...I can think of a ton of "industrial" people who fit the above
description as well...
Later,
Fran "industrial appeals to upper-middle class white kids; deal with it"
Connor
--
______________________________________________________________________________
"A man, who has had no opportunity of comparing the different kinds of
beauty, is indeed totally unqualified to pronounce an opinion with regard
to any object presented to him."
--David Hume, "Of the Standard of Taste"
______________________________________________________________________________
Francis X. Connor Career English Major George Washington University
Aaron Davidson
>db wrote:
>
>> Seriously though, what the hell do you wear to an industrial club then? I
>> haven't ever been to a big city club, but I can certainly imagine that when I
>> do it won't be full of flannel wearing, baggy pants, chili bowl head, cookie
>> cutter, frat boy clones.
>>
>
>You wear anything you want. Who says you have to dress up in funny
>costumes? I've been to plenty of "Industrial" clubs in big cities and
>small cities, everywhere from Montreal to London to Chicago to New York
>City. I usually wear jeans and a t-shirt. I'm there to hear the music,
>not to take part in a fashion show. I get some funny looks from the
>trendy people because I don't "look" like an Industrial music fan, but
>I've been in the music scene for a long long time so I really don't care
>what they think.
>
>Just wear what you usually wear when you go out on the town.
I totally agree here....there's a club here in Edmonton that plays
Industrial and Goth music on wednesday nights. Two weeks ago I wore green
pants and a spam shirt. Wear whatever the hell you want.
--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Aaron Davidson | <a...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> |
| Silicon Creek Software | <http://www.ualberta.ca/~ajd/Regs_Madness.html> |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Inukschuk
Two points. First is the fact that we're discussing this at all -- that
there is so little division between goth and industrial that we are all on
the same newsgroup. I got tired of the argument after about the 30th post,
so someone may have mentioned this already, but... we're all here, aren't
we? I'm industrial, you're goth -- difference is you wear more make up
than I do. The guy I drag to most of the shows I go to -- I'm a girl -- is
a goth fashion-wise, but an industrial musician. Wears darker lipstick
than me. Big bloody deal.
Second, about the fashion thing; I go to shows wearing whatever I'm
wearing at the time. Sometimes it's a suit (all-ages shows, coming from
work) or jeans and a t-shirt (working at home, I just don't care) or
"dressed" -- point is, who gives a flying fuck? You're there to hear a
band. Period. If you're going to a "club," maybe that's different (I still
don't care, I'm there to dance and drink, and I have the piercings, so no
one will mistake me for a neophyte), but going to see a *band* is about
music, not fashion.
The Projekt Goth Fest (coming back to Chicago in August; be there; and no,
I don't work for the label) is an exception to the above rule. Last year
it seemed to be mostly about fashion, and it was amusing as hell
Karen the Permanent Industrial Kid.
David Gerard
On 4 Apr 1997 16:21:25 GMT, daniel landherr (dlan...@ub.d.umn.edu) wrote:
:I actually like a lot of industrial, but not a lot of gothic, simply
:because I don't really like gothic. As far as I go to the "goth" side is
:Love & Rockets, Bauhaus, and Joy Division. I love industrial because of
:the amount of impressive musical artists in the genre. I listen mainly to
:original, no-bullshit music. I'm probably too grounded in everyday
:reality to like the fantasy escapism implied by "gothic".
Cut the 'our music is Grittier and Realer than yours' wank. It's like the
idiots from alt.fan.harlan-ellison (this is not meant to include all posters
to that newsgroup, just the idiots) who come to alt.gothic and try to
impress us with their gritty realism.
If you want gritty realism, try Faxed Head: music for IQ 85 metalheads
who fail to kill themselves. Or New Waver: evolutionary-biology rock,
about why life is pointless pain.
FWIW, I have little time for the last 10-15 years of 'goth'. Or 'industrial'.
My record collection stops at 1984 in that regard, and did a quick gear-
change to Australian Indie Rock'n'roll. Muwaahahahahahaaaa!
Too much modern-day intustrial is basically pop-techno with dystopian
lyrics. Even the good stuff is notably humorless.
I favour early Cabaret Voltaire (up to 'MicroPhonies', which is one of
my favourite records ... 'Covenant', immediately following it, sucks
dingleberries) and Severed Heads.
New Topic: Severed Heads as one of the few industrial-sorta bands with
even the slightest sense of humour.
:Music is music, listen to the good stuff from all genres (damn, I'm deep)
All music sucks.
I hang around goths because they're nice and they're cute. The music I
can take or leave, mostly leave.
--
*** Rev Dr David Gerard http://www.suburbia.net/~fun/ ***
"When they came for the Trekkies, I said `Hey, you guys missed a couple. See,
there's one right over *there*.' When they came for the OS flamers, I said
`Guess what they run in Hell, buddy!' When they came for the spammers, I said
`Glad to see my tax money at work!' When they came for the MMFers, I said `I
thought you got those guys last time you stopped by.' When they came for the
AOLers, I said `October came late this year.' When they came for the people who
post their messages in HTML, I said `So, you guys hiring anytime soon?' When
they came for the 3L1T3 Hacker D00dz, I bought them a round of beer. When they
came for Heaven's Gate, I said `Can you get the deposit back on those empty
containers?'" (Jake Kesinger)
Robb Cunningham
hope raudive wrote:
<snipped a bunch of stuff that made lots of sense>
> also, a quick ? to r.m.i. in general: why is it that skinny puppy is
> considered industrial but a similar-sounding band from the same time
> period, executive slacks, is considered goth? i've been wondering that
> for ages...
I never really considered ES to be similar to puppy. I'm not thinking
straight enough to make an intelligent comparison though. I always
thought of Slacks as just a really creative alternative band, who
occasionally employed elements of goth and industrial, but weren't
strictly either.
it could have something to do with scenes. puppy obviously was
influential to tons of industrial bands, therefore most often comes into
discussion in industrial circles. Ex Slacks, may have just been more
popular in the goth scene, and so you hear about them more from goth
circles...?
--
Robb Cunningham "THIS SENTENCE IS NOT TRUE"
go here: http://www.smartlink.net/~iceolate
Robb Cunningham
hel's -synic- wrote:
> I think Morrissey would laugh at the concept of being labelled "gothic."
> He's more the British Pop sort of singer, I'd have thought.
I don't care what scene he is closely associated with, I have always
considered Morrissey to be THE goth of the 80s. you can kick my ass now
if you want.
rorschach (klint finley)
> Goths to me tend to goway ovarboard, which is part of the goth thing, but I
> as an industrailite can see the reason why there is some dislike between
> the groups. Industrialites tend to be more minimalists, wont go overboard
> on makeup/weird clothing, which is a goth thing.
that's stereotypical. i don't go overboard. i usually don't even wear
makeup. that's the problem, you can't judge people by what music they
listen to or how they dress or what social group they belong to. i've
got friends who are stoners, friends who are hicks, friends that are
nerds etc. i wish people would stop this labeling and stereo typing of
everyone.
>But Darkness goes with
> both, so seeing someone clad in black is usualy the thing. Oh well just my
> oppinion.
hmm... darkness doesn't always go with "industrial" fans, but it pretty
much always goes with "goths".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
STRONGER THAN EVER EVER BEFORE, The Pages of Darkness are back with a
vengence at:
http://www.lookup.com/Homepages/76936/index.html
featuring, The Crow, nin, a chat room, poetry, links, comics, and
more!
"i just don't want to know anymore, life shifts up and down, everybody
knows it's wrong, so why don't you care?"
- Skinny Puppy
rorschach (klint finley)
> PERSONALLY, ever since it was pointed out to me, i've always considered
> punk to be the flip side of industrial--the rebellion against
> establishment (in punk, meaning society; in "old-school inustrial", art
> and society) and their approximately common time and location of
> inception lend the strongest links. though the industrial musicians were
> (and in
> some cases, still are) a bit more thought-provoking than their punk
> brothers-in-arms. but, i listen to both punk and industrial, so that may
> also bias my decision. of course, i just may have no fucking clue about
> what i'm talking about.
actually, both goth and industrial sorta came from punk, which is why
someone would say they're flip sides.
rorschach (klint finley)
<yawn>
> gothic...well, for me has been sterile, trapped in this
> shelleyesque romanticism, escapist, as frigid as a vampire, lifeless as a
> corpse, groans and moans as fate seals the world like a tomb.
"real" gothic music does get boring. for some reason a lot of people
think their music has to sound exactly like the origenal goth bands for
it to be gothic. that's pretty stupid. i listen to some origenal
gothic, but find "industrial" music much more appealing, just because
they tend to branch out more.
JASON HERRMANN
James Cooney (jco...@locke.ccil.org) wrote:
: In article <5i2uk0$i...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> gbob...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (Greg Bobkiewicz) writes:
:
: >Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
: >industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
: >since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
: >anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
: >jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
: You know, I've never understood why Goth is considered the flip side of the
: coin. Musically, I consider industrial (when I said industrial, I meant
: electro-ebm, maybe even coldwave, not traditional industrial records stuff)
: more akin to techno than gothic. Listen to a sisters of mercy song, an old
: antler subway techno song, and say a 242 song. Musically, it strikes me as
: the techno and 242 are more similar. But hey, what the hell do I know?
--
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Jason Herrmann herr...@nevada.edu
Geology/UNLV
Sigma Gamma Epsilon president(Earth Sciences honor society)
" WE'll all turn to dust on heaven's command,
Time goes by fast, No second chance."
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
I would have to say that the two types of music are differnt in a lot of
ways. Most Gothic doesn't use nearly the electronic element that
Industrial does. Gothic is generally darker in a philosophical way( eg..
Death, Love,sorrow, etc...) Industrial is dark in a big picture kinda
way( eg.. Armagedon, war, politics, etc...) But they both can be good.
I'm definitely industrial. I listen to very little Gothic. Usually it
is just to whiny and moopy for me. But there is some I really like.
Whereas My girlfriend is Very Very "Goth". She feels about industrial
as I do about Gothic. She says Industrial is just to much like Techno,
But there are some bands she really likes though. It is true that there
are differences in the music , but the people are pretty similar. Dress
is sorta similar and in some cases exactly the same. Attitude: both groups
have there pretentious people who will turn three noses up at other
groups. But it is thier lose. And what is it with every jock trend fuck
going after Goth girls?? I don't know how many times jocks have tried to
hit on my girlfriend Because she is "one of those Goth chicks". I think
jocks are generally more afraid of industrial girls. They can be a fairly
Violent agnst ridden bunch. We all wear black, listen to music that is
differnt and dark, and are for the most part individuals. Techno sure
isn't like that. Top 40 isn't like that, country isn't like that,
hip-hop/Rap definitely isn't like that! We have more in common with each
other then we do everyone else!
But I could just be babbling from lack of sleep. But maybe not.........
SG
gbob...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (Greg Bobkiewicz) wrote:
>Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
>industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
>since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
>anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
>jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
>
From what I've seen most Goths dont really have strong opinions or
political beliefs. Just a non-mainstream music and fashion taste and
thats about all I've seen of the Goths in Denver.
"A man without god is like a fish without a bicycle"
-R.A.W.
Ben Colborn
David Gerard (gerdw_remove-this...@cougar.vut.edu.au) wrote:
: New Topic: Severed Heads as one of the few industrial-sorta bands with
: even the slightest sense of humour.
Gotta include Laibach too. I don't know how serious or humorous they
consider themselves, but I think their cover songs are a total riot. I
love Laibach! They're so cool! Severed Heads are cool, but not as cool as
Laibach.
<> ben colborn <> colb...@uidaho.edu <> www.cs.uidaho.edu/~colb9345 <>
<> Goth Code 2.0: GoHu+TW$CS$ TMJtYyuIn B6/35Bk!]2^2 cBKw--L PSaMoPr(Pa) <>
<> V-s M- ZGoGnInCl C++P3u a21+ n-- b:-- H178 g+T mEa3Ni3G1-3 w+T r+3 <>
<> D--h-- s9 k++BW RnSsWw N0893Pnw LusID- HfsS <>
Jealousy
Francis X. Connor <wax...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> wrote in article
<5i6he4$6pm$1...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>...
| Later,
| Fran "industrial appeals to upper-middle class white kids; deal with it"
| Connor
and to lower class native guys too.
Bottom line,
this was a troll and you have all been had, so lets just let it go ok?
Jealousy(hook line and sinkered)
--
"Patience my ass! I wanna KILL something!"
Native, Goth, Confused and Armed. What more could you want?
Douglas A Bicknese
: industrial music has "life", the motion of rage, the incandescent
: light of wrath. Industrial tackles (perhaps philosophically) the
: unanswerable question of humanity...a world where man is both fascinated
: and frightened by machines, a love/hate relationship bordering on a
: musical sadomasochism. industrial music pits the creator(human) against
: the created(machine).
: gothic...well, for me has been sterile, trapped in this
: shelleyesque romanticism, escapist, as frigid as a vampire, lifeless as a
: corpse, groans and moans as fate seals the world like a tomb.
I've always tended to think that there is more "life" in the gothic side.
Industrial certainly has energy and rage. However, with the exception of
a few bands like Puppy, Coil, or Neubauten, it usually comes across to me
as blind energy. Thats fine, but if I'm going to be sweating in a club
for several hours, I usually want something more. As for the
philosophical stuff you mentioned...I gave up on finding inspiration in
rock music long ago. If I want that, I'll visit my overflowing bookshelf.
If you want Front Line Assebly to show you the path to salvation...well, I
just don't know what to say.
I've always found it hard to describe the things I like in gothicky songs.
It think it has more passion to its sound. Some people have described
it as erotic, but I'm hesitant to use that descriptor. Kind of like
"Arabian Knights" by Siouxsie or "Sparks" by Faith & the Muse, but also in
of stuff by Project Pitchfork, Das Ich, and the bands I mentioned
above. When I think of gothic music, I associate it with more than
"Peek-a-boo w/ Mr. Lovegrove in the Temple Of Love Where Bela Lugosi Died'
and the 3-4 other songs that may get played in most clubs. Just like I
know that there is more to industrial music than Headhunter, join in the
chant, light, just one fix, etc.
The two musical styles may be different, but they balance each other out
very nicely. To limit gothic fans to people in poofy shirts
and make-up is absurd. I've hardly ever wore anything other than
jeans/shorts and a loose t-shirt of any color when I go out - gothic
night, industrial night, or some other night. I go out to dance and I
sweat way way way too much to wear anything else. And I've never been
ostracized or felt uneasy in any of the crowds. If you expect a group of
gothic people in the corner of a loud club to be snotty and you approach
them with the attitude of "hello you snotty sheeps in black"...they
probably will blow you off.
Douglas August Bicknese
adam.
On 6 Apr 1997, JASON HERRMANN wrote:
> I would have to say that the two types of music are differnt in a lot of
> ways. Most Gothic doesn't use nearly the electronic element that
> Industrial does. Gothic is generally darker in a philosophical way( eg..
> Death, Love,sorrow, etc...) Industrial is dark in a big picture kinda
> way( eg.. Armagedon, war, politics, etc...) But they both can be good.
> I'm definitely industrial. I listen to very little Gothic. Usually it
> is just to whiny and moopy for me. But there is some I really like.
> Whereas My girlfriend is Very Very "Goth". She feels about industrial
> as I do about Gothic. She says Industrial is just to much like Techno,
> But there are some bands she really likes though. It is true that there
> are differences in the music , but the people are pretty similar. Dress
> is sorta similar and in some cases exactly the same. Attitude: both groups
> have there pretentious people who will turn three noses up at other
> groups. But it is thier lose. And what is it with every jock trend fuck
> going after Goth girls?? I don't know how many times jocks have tried to
> hit on my girlfriend Because she is "one of those Goth chicks". I think
> jocks are generally more afraid of industrial girls. They can be a fairly
> Violent agnst ridden bunch. We all wear black, listen to music that is
> differnt and dark, and are for the most part individuals. Techno sure
> isn't like that. Top 40 isn't like that, country isn't like that,
> hip-hop/Rap definitely isn't like that! We have more in common with each
> other then we do everyone else!
> But I could just be babbling from lack of sleep. But maybe not.........
i think maybe you are just babbling in your sleep. this antagonistic
rant about how 'WE are for the most part individuals', with the
implication that THEY (whomever 'they' may be) are not, reveals a lack of
maturity and a bit of short-sightedness. WE are all indiviuals?
well, i'm not.
adam the Man They Call Brian.
acc...@hofstra.edu
> Æ Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
> Æ industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music. It seems silly to me,
> Æ since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin. It doesn't have
> Æ anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
> Æ jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
>
> I absolutely loathe gothic music. I think it is *all*, without exception,
> complete and utter shite. But what I really hate about the whole
> subculture and genre is the fact that it is so inextricably linked with
> industrial music, at least here in NYC. You CANNOT go to a club to listen
> to industrial music in this city without being subjected to gothic for at
> least half the time. The best solution I've found is to go to the Batcave
> early, before anyone shows up, when they play industrial from 10 pm on. By
> 1 am, I know I can leave, because it's just not worth bearing all of the
> gothic crap to hear a few industrial songs.
This "pound of gothic for an ounce of industrial" stuff is something I've
noticed too. And the industrial that is played at both the Batcave and
at the Bank (the two times I've been there) seems to be straight off of
Wax Trax! It's like the DJ just takes a disc out of the box set and
plays either Godlike, No Name, No Slogan, Beers Steers and Queers, or
Supernaut. Virtually nothing else. I've heard plasticity a few times,
one coil song (love's secret domain, of course) some laibach and I think
i heard haujobb once. I've only been to the batcave about six or seven
times, and three times were for shows, so the dj'ing may have been
different.
My biggest problem with the "scene" in NYC is that it seems unless you go
wearing your best velvet, or have completely gothed (is that a word?)
yourself out, people look at you like you've just killed someone. Of
course, if you wear jeans and a t shirt, you can't be worth much of
anything, right? After all, fashion is what makes going to a club
enjoyable. Music, or the love of it, has nothing to do with it at all.
I came to NY thinking that there would be all sorts of clubs and music
and that people would have at least some acceptance of different styles.
I was proved wrong. Blah.
So unto all of you I say: T-SHIRTS AND JEANS FOREVER!!!
(all sarcasm intended, duh)
"This is a great day for France!" - Former President Richard M. Nixon at
Charles DeGaulle's funeral.
MichaelO'ConnorJournalismMajorSeniorNewsEditorTheChronicle
http://www.hofstra.edu/~moconn42 *reviewsinterviewsotherstuff*
acc...@hofstra.edu *-or-* moco...@magic.hofstra.edu
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Serial.Port.Killer
JackieBlue (god...@planetc.com) wrote:
: It's simple, really. Goths are pretentious, silly fucks with too much
: time on their hands. A lot of them are bored rich kids. A lot of them
: have very silly sexual fetishes. I don't dislike goths cause I like
: industrial. I like a lot of "goth" music. But I completely despise the
: "scene".
*chuckle* And that doesn't describe your average rivethead at all, does
it? ;)
Later..
Morgan, (who really needs to change his damned .login name some day.)
--
...Serial.Port.Killer... "When coincidence seems too convenient,
mwo...@gladstone.uoregon.edu I prefer to call it fate."
rive...@netcom.com -Legacy of Kain
ftp.netcom.com pub/co/coldwave
http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~mwolfe/index.html
Serial.Port.Killer
Sundar Subramanian (ds...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
: I don't quite understand why people link goth w/ industrial. Gothic music
: and culture is about fantasy escapism. Industrial, to me, is about making
: a comment on reality through sounds & words, more akin to dystopian
: literature than to vampire romances.
But it isn't so much of a similarity between the musical styles as it is
between their respective subcultures. As TWD pointed out, people into
both styles of music tend to flock together into scenes, and as others
have pointed out, neither scene is large enough to generally accomodate
its own club. Goth and newer industrial have a lot of surface
similarities; certainly more than either scene has with rave, for example.
Both scenes have a darker aesthetic. "Industrial" might be about hard
science fiction and goth might be about vampires, but there's a common
attitude of nihilism, alienation, etc.
Frankly, a lot of the grouping is probably for dating purposes as well.
The rivethead scene is easily 75 percent male, and the goth scene has a
similar ratio of women to men. If you accept the idea of similar
aestheics, than it isn't that hard to buy the notion that a lot of people
are going to want to sleep with similarly aesthisized individuals as well.
Traditional industrial doesn't have a whole lot in common with goth, but
most of the electro out there does. Musically, Fields of the Nephilim
and FLA are worlds apart, but both McCoy and Leeb tend to be obsessed with
lone warriors stalking the wastelands. The movie "Hardware" is far
closer to the rivethead aestheic, but it's McCoy who plays the Zone
Tripper.
As musical genres, goth and industrial shouldn't be grouped together. As
subcultures, they are the proverbial "flip sides of the same coin."
Later...
Morgan
Adam K Rixey
rive...@netcom.com (Serial.Port.Killer) writes:
> Traditional industrial doesn't have a whole lot in common with goth, but
> most of the electro out there does. Musically, Fields of the Nephilim
> and FLA are worlds apart, but both McCoy and Leeb tend to be obsessed with
> lone warriors stalking the wastelands. The movie "Hardware" is far
> closer to the rivethead aestheic, but it's McCoy who plays the Zone
> Tripper.
Agreed, but the current incarnation of Nefilim sounds a lot like
what Rhys Fulber and crew are doing these days -- industrial death
metal.
> As musical genres, goth and industrial shouldn't be grouped together. As
> subcultures, they are the proverbial "flip sides of the same coin."
Maybe it's just me, but I've given up trying to figure out what
goth and industrial are. I go to the store and find Mentallo + the
Fixer in the gothic bin (probably because of the angel artwork and
fonts). I go to a concert for a "night of dark and ethereal gothic
music" and get bands playing hard-edged electronic noise. It's very
easy to pick the black/white cases and say "Front Line Assembly is
industrial and Sisters of Mercy are gothic", but there are entirely
too many gray-area bands and fans.
Then again, the bands I admire the most are the ones that I can't
really categorize. I'm almost always listening to the Legendary Pink
Dots, and I have no clue how to categorize them. Industrial? Folk?
Jazz? Gothic? Ambient? I can pick an album and have them fit into
any one of these genres.
AkR nya...@andrew.cmu.edu http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~nyarl/
sing while you may, though it's hard to sing underwater
[DANOS]
SG wrote:
>
> gbob...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (Greg Bobkiewicz) wrote:
>
> >Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
> >anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
> >
>
> political beliefs. Just a non-mainstream music and fashion taste and
> thats about all I've seen of the Goths in Denver.
most of the goths ive seen 'round here (Denver) don't quite know the
difference between industrial and goth, anyway...
the last time FLA came through town, I was in line right in front of a
small clan of goths who were giggling loudly, saying "Frontline Assembly
is simply my favourite gothic band!! I have all their albums!!"
-go figure??-
-[DANOS]-
David Gerard
On Sat, 05 Apr 1997 09:27:07 -0500, Thin White Duke (die.spa...@address.in.sig) wrote:
:This new music just ain't got the same air,
:I like that old Cabaret Voltaire.
:I hate to think about the days of hair
:metal bands, gimme Cabaret Voltaire.
Not these days. It's good to see them both happy and fulfilled churning
out techno, but somehow I don't want to listen to any of it ever ...
--
*** Rev Dr David Gerard http://www.suburbia.net/~fun/ ***
"Another Xmas! All hail to dark Mammon and all that." (Dylan Craig)
Jacques L Capesius
whoa...people here really h8 ( <- ain't that kewl? I spelt hate with a
number!! huk! huk! huk! ) goths quite a great deal around here...GOOD!! j/k.
My question is this: WHO CARES!!! We all really need to worry about how
we're spending our time as opposed to how someone might be wasting
theirs. I'll come clean: I dislike most of the goth automatons I have to
deal with. But that's okay, because I don't have to be nice to them, nor
do they know where I live (nor do they deem me as worthy of their
attention...hooray for me!). So my advice is this: mind your own
business and let the clove smokers go fuck themselves.
But if that just isn't quite good enough for you, may I suggest this
therapeutic endeavor: When there was someone in Junior High whom I didn't
like, I would kill them in effigy via comic books that I would write in
which they would be plying their sinister wares at the behest of all
those around them, until our hero Cookieman (tm) would come and save the
day with his super strength and radioactive chocolate chips. I would
then pass these lyrical masterpieces to my friend(s) (ahh who am i
kidding, no-one ever liked me---mental note, starting to sound like
morissey) It was especially funny when the arch villain and subject of
said comic would get their hands on it.
Try it, even if you can't draw, or rather, ESPECIALLY if you can't draw.
I can't really, and I think my lack of skill increased the schlock factor
and insult level of said comics.
-bac0n :)
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Jacques Capesius "Killing one man is murder. Killing a million,
cape...@maroon.tc.umn.edu that's genocide." -Joseph Stalin
Girl Under Glass
On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, SG wrote:
> gbob...@gpu1.srv.ualberta.ca (Greg Bobkiewicz) wrote:
>
> >Sometimes I notice that while a lot of Goths like Industrial music,
> >industrial fans don't care for Goths or the music.
Industrial fans don't care for goth because the music isn't as good as it
used to be. Compare the great industrial bands out there to the
unfortunately successful goth bands:
haujobb, wumpscut, yelworC, project pitchfork, forma tadre, splatter
squall, and one, de/vision, wolfsheim (actually they are more synthpop)etc
vs
switchblade symphony, london after midnight, suspiria......(utter crap,
but that's just my opinion, and you are all entitled to differ)
of course there are some brilliant darkwave bands out there such as deine
lakaien, girls under glass, endraum. Fortification 55 are great too, but
not really in any of the categories.
It seems silly to me,
> >since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin.
no they are not! one is great, the other sadly is in the process of
sucking. I stopped listening to "goth" 3 years ago, with the exception of
the mission whom I worship dearly.
It doesn't have
> >anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
> >jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
> >
they mostly seem to like guitar industrial, not electo industrial,
thankfully.
>
> From what I've seen most Goths dont really have strong opinions or
> political beliefs.
Exactly the opposite of the goths I have encountered! Maybe in your city,
but definitely not in mine!
g.u.g.
db
>for some reason i feel the need to point out that piercings in no way
>indicate whether or not one's a neophyte. everyone practically has
>piercings...
Right on. I'm a piercing virgin and proud of it. I can't wait until the day
comes that I'm *different* because of it.
"You don't have a PA? But it's so much fun!"
"Sorry, against my religion..."
--
rarped
-----------------------
"Queen Pheretima of Kyrene was eaten
alive by intestinally generated maggots"
Herodotus
-----------------------------
jdb...@mindspring.com
>But if that just isn't quite good enough for you, may I suggest this
>therapeutic endeavor: When there was someone in Junior High whom I didn't
>like, I would kill them in effigy via comic books that I would write in
>which they would be plying their sinister wares at the behest of all
>those around them, until our hero Cookieman (tm) would come and save the
>day with his super strength and radioactive chocolate chips. I would
>then pass these lyrical masterpieces to my friend(s) (ahh who am i
>kidding, no-one ever liked me---mental note, starting to sound like
>morissey) It was especially funny when the arch villain and subject of
>said comic would get their hands on it.
>Try it, even if you can't draw, or rather, ESPECIALLY if you can't draw.
>I can't really, and I think my lack of skill increased the schlock factor
>and insult level of said comics.
> -bac0n :)
Looks like you're still in junior high.
John
jdb...@mindspring.com
http://www.mindspring.com/~jdbowen
Denis Tumpic
Hi,
I just wonder in what cathegory "Cassandra compleX" CD "SEX & DEATH"
would end up in?
To me it's both goth and industry.
I don't think industrial fans have anything against goths.
( They shouldn't )
We are in the same boat FCOL! :)
- Denis
**************************************
* The day the four horse men ride ...*
* Poesie Noire *
**************************************
David Gerard
On Fri, 4 Apr 1997 22:32:20 -0500, po...@acsu.buffalo.edu wrote:
: industrial music has "life", the motion of rage, the incandescent
:light of wrath. Industrial tackles (perhaps philosophically) the
:unanswerable question of humanity...a world where man is both fascinated
:and frightened by machines, a love/hate relationship bordering on a
:musical sadomasochism. industrial music pits the creator(human) against
:the created(machine).
: gothic...well, for me has been sterile, trapped in this
:shelleyesque romanticism, escapist, as frigid as a vampire, lifeless as a
:corpse, groans and moans as fate seals the world like a tomb.
Comparing the best of one genre with the mediocre of another is not a
valid comparison mechanism.
: like the cog that fits perfectly in the machine...in
:dustrial simplicity is more attractive that baroque-ish gothyness.
See what I mean?
--
*** Rev Dr David Gerard http://www.suburbia.net/~fun/ ***
"Threesome anyone? Girl, boy ... and his ego." (Stained)
David Gerard
On Sun, 06 Apr 1997 00:36:51 -0800, rorschach (klint finley) (kfi...@wave.sheridan.wy.us) wrote:
:> PERSONALLY, ever since it was pointed out to me, i've always considered
:> punk to be the flip side of industrial--the rebellion against
:> establishment (in punk, meaning society; in "old-school inustrial", art
:> and society) and their approximately common time and location of
:> inception lend the strongest links. though the industrial musicians were
:> (and in
:> some cases, still are) a bit more thought-provoking than their punk
:> brothers-in-arms. but, i listen to both punk and industrial, so that may
:> also bias my decision. of course, i just may have no fucking clue about
:> what i'm talking about.
:actually, both goth and industrial sorta came from punk, which is why
:someone would say they're flip sides.
That's more 'sorta' than 'did'. Goth as we know it definitely came from
punk, but Industrial started separately and then went along for the
punk/new-wave ride. Then cross-fertilised, as these things are wont to
do.
a.g and r.m.i both have history FAQs.
--
*** Rev Dr David Gerard http://www.suburbia.net/~fun/ ***
"GOTHIC is a 15-year old boy wearing a black skirt sitting on the floor in the
corner of his room picking his pierced nose with a painted fingernail realizing
that he is the only person on the planet who is sensitive and brilliant enough
to fully comprehend the lyric 'hey, now, hey, now, now, sing this corrosion
to me.'" (jo...@sirius.com)
downfall
On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Adam K Rixey wrote:
> Agreed, but the current incarnation of Nefilim sounds a lot like
> what Rhys Fulber and crew are doing these days -- industrial death
> metal.
since when has fla started playing electronic blast beats, with swirling
guitar that bludgeons thee senses and have vocals that yeou can't
understand to save yeour last copy ov drinking gasoline?
-downfall
"the man has no sense of reality" - george drakoulias
Paradigm
I find all this discussion truly fascinating. Perhaps you'll indulge me
while I tell you why. I am coming from the other side of the fence here.
I've been into Industrial for quite some time now, and am beginning to
feel that the Industrial scene is consuming itself. Everything either
sounds like Metal shit or like techno garbage (according to various
elitist opinions on rec.music.industrial). To me, I think originality is
fading very fast. Besides, aggression gets old after a while.
So, I've come recently to begin learning about goth culture and music.
I find them more appealing in many ways, yet I don't see Goth and
Industrial as being mutually exclusive or conflicting in any way. Many
others see it this way too, which is why Darkwave Industrial is growing
so rapidly. Who knows? The future of both scenes might be one and the
same, should the two types of music blend. Personally the thought bores
the hell out of me, but it's a possibility.
I find it interesting that the Goth bands listed as being abysmal by
Girl Under Glass are the more Industrial influenced ones. Oftentimes, it
is difficult to make a distinction. Although I happen to like
Switchblade Symphony and London After Midnight, I will not disparage
g.u.g's opinion of them. Only to say that I think that the terms 'Goth'
and 'Industrial' are becoming completely subjective and unreliable.
After all, 'Industrial' music _technically_ ended with Industrial
Record's own end.
So, I'd just like to say, that I would collapse into a heaping bowl of
mush without either Goth or Industrial, bloody-well long may they both
live.
Paradigm
Mr. Sister
Girl Under Glass wrote:
> Industrial fans don't care for goth because the music isn't as good as it
> used to be. Compare the great industrial bands out there to the
> unfortunately successful goth bands:
> haujobb, wumpscut, yelworC, project pitchfork, forma tadre, splatter
> squall, and one, de/vision, wolfsheim (actually they are more synthpop)etc
>
> vs
>
> switchblade symphony, london after midnight, suspiria......(utter crap,
> but that's just my opinion, and you are all entitled to differ)
This seems to be a matter of opinion. I do agree that there seem to be
more great new industrial bands out there than great new gothic bands.
Your comparison seems a little unfair, though. You compare *great*
industrial bands with *successful* goth bands. What do you consider
successful? Also, I think bands like Switchblade Symphony and London
After Midnight have elements of industrial in them (haven't heard
Suspiria, so don't know about them). I also think bands like Project
Pitchfork and Wolfsheim have elements of goth in them... even Haujobb,
:wumpscut, and yelworC to a point. I don't think any of the bands you
listed are pure goth or pure industrial (can't speak for the bands I
haven't heard, though). The line between goth and industrial can often
be blurred. I feel that the problem with goth in its original sense is
that it doesn't have anywhere to go (just like other forms of music -
grunge, metal, rap, hip-hop, etc). It all starts sounding the same or
worse after awhile. Industrial has much more room to expand because
there are virtually no limitations. The best new goth bands, in my
opinion, are the ones that start crossing over into the industrial realm
and experimenting with new sounds. I guess maybe these are considered
darkwave bands.
> It seems silly to me,
> > >since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin.
>
> no they are not! one is great, the other sadly is in the process of
> sucking. I stopped listening to "goth" 3 years ago, with the exception of
> the mission whom I worship dearly.
There are plenty of industrial bands out there that suck. Being
industrial doesn't make one great. Even the bands that are considered
great by many people, suck to other people. I don't think you can name
one band that people unanimously like. The Mission sure isn't one.
Mr. Sister
--
********************-- mrsi...@ix.netcom.com --*******************
*******-- http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/4935 --*******
*-- Visit for gothic/industrial music info and recommendations, --*
******-- band links, concert ratings, and vampire poetry --********
mark8163.st...@mars.rowan.edu
>Inukschuk) writes:>From: inuk...@aol.com (Inukschuk)
>Subject: Re: What do Industrial fans have against Goths?
>Date: 5 Apr 1997 23:21:18 GMT
>Second, about the fashion thing; I go to shows wearing whatever I'm
>wearing at the time. Sometimes it's a suit (all-ages shows, coming from
>work) or jeans and a t-shirt (working at home, I just don't care) or
>"dressed" -- point is, who gives a flying fuck? You're there to hear a
>band. Period. If you're going to a "club," maybe that's different (I still
>don't care, I'm there to dance and drink, and I have the piercings, so no
>one will mistake me for a neophyte), but going to see a *band* is about
>music, not fashion.
for some reason i feel the need to point out that piercings in no way
indicate whether or not one's a neophyte. everyone practically has
piercings...
gair
Lis
>Dmentia wrote:
>
snip
> at school, I discovered that much of industrial, while being futuristic
> in its use of technology, has a very goth-esque nihilism to it. I love both
> forms of music.
>
> I don't think I'm alone in this, so the subject line of this post puzzles me. I
> guess I've just been lucky to find that in my travels goths and industrialists
> have always successfully socialized.
>
> Dmentia
Many people would agree in that the two can perfectly coexist and feed
off each other. There's no reason for either to be exclusive. I help run
a successful Gothic/Industrial club here in Florida and the two crowds
are almost indistinguishable and inseparable.
Minx
(If you want info about the club, feel free to email)
http://fortress-games.com/dna.htm
baby website in progress
E Loch
Nothing.
Out,
E Loch
m...@chalkhead.com
Serial.Port.Killer
downfall (sw85...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu) wrote:
: > Agreed, but the current incarnation of Nefilim sounds a lot like
: > what Rhys Fulber and crew are doing these days -- industrial death
: > metal.
: since when has fla started playing electronic blast beats, with swirling
: guitar that bludgeons thee senses and have vocals that yeou can't
: understand to save yeour last copy ov drinking gasoline?
Uhh, Downfall, you do remember that Rhys left the band, right? Fear
Factory's his crew these days, not Herr Leeb the Cyber-Lord. (TM)
David Gerard
On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 14:57:47 GMT, jdb...@mindspring.com wrote:
: I think there are at least three kinds of gothic music:
:1) "Woe is me" gothic, including Morissey, the Cure
:2) Dancey gothic, including Sisters of Mercy, Siouxie,
:3) Folk gothic, including Death in June, Current 93, Legendary Pink
:Dots
What about punk rock bands like Joy Division?
[r.m.i removed from followups]
--
*** Rev Dr David Gerard http://www.suburbia.net/~fun/ ***
"Find some new friends and look into the warranty on your backbone." (TSM)
SG
acc...@hofstra.edu wrote:
>
>My biggest problem with the "scene" in NYC is that it seems unless you go
>wearing your best velvet, or have completely gothed (is that a word?)
>yourself out, people look at you like you've just killed someone. Of
>course, if you wear jeans and a t shirt, you can't be worth much of
>anything, right? After all, fashion is what makes going to a club
>enjoyable. Music, or the love of it, has nothing to do with it at all.
I was there New Year's Eve. I've never seen goth/rivetheads actually
target normal looking/raver people and physically go up and tell them
to leave a club before. It was pretty rediculous.
The music they played that night was good, but I was told that it was
because Offbeat was there and they were like trying to make a good
impression or something.
---------------------------------------------------------
"Ketchup is a vegetable." - The Reagan Administration
---------------------------------------------------------
Adam K Rixey
downfall <sw85...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> writes:
> On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Adam K Rixey wrote:
>
> > Agreed, but the current incarnation of Nefilim sounds a lot like
> > what Rhys Fulber and crew are doing these days -- industrial death
> > metal.
>
> since when has fla started playing electronic blast beats, with swirling
> guitar that bludgeons thee senses and have vocals that yeou can't
> understand to save yeour last copy ov drinking gasoline?
FLA by themselves haven't, unless you consider their remixes of Fear
Factory. But Rhys has always been more into metal, and is one of the
reasons he left (to my knowledge). Although he doesn't seem to be a
full memeber, listen to the new Decree album if you do want electronic
noisy screech death. A like it quite a bit, actually, and it does
feature the new "other-half" of FLA...
<daemonus>
On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, rorschach (klint finley) wrote:
>
> actually, both goth and industrial sorta came from punk, which is why
> someone would say they're flip sides.
>
Though I wouldn't say that industrial came from punk, but rather grew
side by side with it, the three definitely have many strong connections.
I would go so far as to say that they are all different aspects of the
whole unified rebellion, with punk being the sheer unrestrained rage and
anger, industrial taking the more intellectual approach, and goth
following the aestetic rout. When you get down to the roots though,
they're really not much different.
<r.glass> "Gee Ren, isn't it
...the shadowy, lurking fun bein' a...FREAK!? character in the corner... fun bein' a...FREAK!?"
character in the corner -Stimpy
daem...@asu.edu http://www.public.asu.edu/~sickman/main.htm
ALL SPAMMERS WILL BE SHOT, KILLED, AND EATEN
Robert P. Beveridge
Girl Under Glass wrote:
> switchblade symphony, london after midnight, suspiria......(utter crap,
> but that's just my opinion, and you are all entitled to differ)
Well, yeah, but there's still some worthwhile goth out there. Maybe you
have to search a little more... :) Lestat have been putting out good
stuff for a few years now, and Human Drama's still around, aren't they?
No, it's not the glory days, when we waited drooling for the next
Sisters of Mercy/Mission/anything else that came from the original
Sisterhood lineup disc. But I don't think it's completely dead yet.
Shit, I still have an issue of _Propaganda from '89 with a piece on
Trent Reznor... the author was convinced NIN was going to save goth from
stagnation. Heh. I wonder whatever happened to that attitude?
> It seems silly to me,
> > >since the two genres are flip sides of the same coin.
> no they are not! one is great, the other sadly is in the process of
> sucking. I stopped listening to "goth" 3 years ago, with the exception of
> the mission whom I worship dearly.
Just because one side lures more talented musicians to its camp doesn't
mean they're not similar. The early days of house/coldwave/industrial
saw many bands with crossover fans (though "industrial" as a media-named
genre wasn't really around yet)-- it was hard to see a Skinny Puppy show
in '86 without running into black eyeliner and corpse paint. :) On the
flip side, Fields of the Nephilim drew a lot of the misanthropic crowd
that now finds its way to industrial shows, and they were (IMHO, of
course) the pinnacle of what goth could be. (Whatever happened to
Hexagon 69/Rubicon/Nefilim anyway? Last I heard McCoy was trying to
reform the band, but that was three or four years ago...)
> It doesn't have
> > >anything to do with the 'machoness' of industrial, does it (since some
> > >jocks and fratboys tend to have leanings towards industrial)
Not where I went to school. Of course, that was back in the day, but I
was considered a weird mother for pumping SP and the like out me window;
jocks and fratboys (and they were the same bunch) listened to R.E.M.
and-- well, nothing else, now that I think about it. Jimmy Buffett when
they were really wasted, mebbe.
In any case, it's all music, and like any genre, some is good, some is
not so good, some should have been shot before it left the test tube.
I'll listen to FotN's _Dawnrazor_ over much of the recent industrial
I've heard anyday; of course, I'll also take anything Skinny Puppy ever
put out over anything spewed forth by suspiria. <shudder>
TM(&G)
on:DeathinJune
nag...@miavx1.muohio.edu
In article <Pine.A32.3.95.970407...@titan.vcu.edu>, Girl Under Glass <s2tn...@titan.vcu.edu> writes:
> On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, SG wrote:
> Industrial fans don't care for goth because the music isn't as good as it
> used to be. Compare the great industrial bands out there to the
> unfortunately successful goth bands:
> no they are not! one is great, the other sadly is in the process of
> sucking. I stopped listening to "goth" 3 years ago, with the exception of
> the mission whom I worship dearly.
ahh, blind subjectivity at its finest. if you could give reasons, that'd be
one thing, but just generally stating that you like industrial bands and don't
like goth bands any more, well... you're not really saying anything. i'm glad
you know what you do and don't like, but why bother comparing goth and
industrial if you don't even like goth? wheee.
bruce
Robb Cunningham
David Gerard wrote:
>
> On Fri, 04 Apr 1997 14:57:47 GMT, jdb...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
> : I think there are at least three kinds of gothic music:
> :1) "Woe is me" gothic, including Morissey, the Cure
> :2) Dancey gothic, including Sisters of Mercy, Siouxie,
> :3) Folk gothic, including Death in June, Current 93, Legendary Pink
> :Dots
>
> What about punk rock bands like Joy Division?
>
they are usually referred to as "punk rock", maybe?
--
Robb Cunningham "THIS SENTENCE IS NOT TRUE"
go here: http://www.smartlink.net/~iceolate
TIMOTHY!
Greycat wrote:
>
> In article <334559...@planetc.com>, god...@planetc.com says...
> > Locke wrote:
> >
> > > Am I a goth since I listen to Bauhaus, Alien Sex Fiend, Das Ich,
> > > and Sisters Of Mercy ? Or am I an industrial fan since I listen to
> > > Einstuerzende Neubauten, Laibach, Negativland, and Cabaret Voltaire.
> > > Or am I an idiot since I listen to mainstream bullshit
> > > like U2 and NIN ?
> >
> > Or are you just well-rounded with a genuine love for music? *gasp*.
> > Bravo. Be nice if there were more people that appreciate a little bit
> > of everything.
> >
> > blue. (np: Pizzicato 5 "I'm a Groupie")
> > http://members.tripod.com/~spill/index.html
> >
> There are many more than you think...;)
>
> Greycat
***********************
well..yer an idiot!
BLASPHEME
TIMOTHY!
Inukschuk wrote:
>
> Two points. First is the fact that we're discussing this at all -- that
> there is so little division between goth and industrial that we are all on
> the same newsgroup. I got tired of the argument after about the 30th post,
> so someone may have mentioned this already, but... we're all here, aren't
> we? I'm industrial, you're goth -- difference is you wear more make up
> than I do. The guy I drag to most of the shows I go to -- I'm a girl -- is
> a goth fashion-wise, but an industrial musician. Wears darker lipstick
> than me. Big bloody deal.
>
> Second, about the fashion thing; I go to shows wearing whatever I'm
> wearing at the time. Sometimes it's a suit (all-ages shows, coming from
> work) or jeans and a t-shirt (working at home, I just don't care) or
> "dressed" -- point is, who gives a flying fuck? You're there to hear a
> band. Period. If you're going to a "club," maybe that's different (I still
> don't care, I'm there to dance and drink, and I have the piercings, so no
> one will mistake me for a neophyte), but going to see a *band* is about
> music, not fashion.
>
> I don't work for the label) is an exception to the above rule. Last year
> it seemed to be mostly about fashion, and it was amusing as hell
>
> Karen the Permanent Industrial Kid.
*****************************
heh....i was at the projekt festival last year.......snorrrrrrr.....boy!
was i dissapointed....but i was the exception....although i love the
label and know its "roster" by heart the performances by the "bands"
(aghem!) was VERY weak most of the "stupid looking" goth fucks diddent'
know the difference...WHY! because musicical knowledge is secondary to
the whole fashon thing with "the goths"....most of them still are
satisified with the whole lame-ancient-OLD! bauhaus...s-o-mercy
shite...dont get me wrong those two bands , i hold very dear to my
heart, BUT move on ...there has been SOOOOOOO much great music that has
come out ..in the last 6months....much less the last 15 years...GROW
uP>>>MOVE ON!
Arazok041
>My biggest problem with the "scene" in NYC is that it seems unless you go
>wearing your best velvet, or have completely gothed (is that a word?)
>yourself out, people look at you like you've just killed someone. Of
>course, if you wear jeans and a t shirt, you can't be worth much of
>anything, right? After all, fashion is what makes going to a club
>enjoyable. Music, or the love of it, has nothing to do with it at all.
>I came to NY thinking that there would be all sorts of clubs and music
>and that people would have at least some acceptance of different styles.
>I was proved wrong. Blah.
Sounds like those NY goths have some problems. Next time your in
Toronto (I know, it's a bit far but well worth the drive) check out the
Sanctuary. This club rulez. I've seen some people in there who just DON'T
fit in, and nobody cares. It's no aditude to the extreme.
ealasaid fionnghal oighrig
has anyone noticed how this entire discussion has strayed away into a
discussion of fashion? i though the original premise was over music. but
then again, i think most discussions that incoperates "gothic" always
leads back to fashion at some point. which is not to say that all people
that consider themselves gothic are superficial, it just seems that a lot
of time they are defending their clothing style, even though the gothic
scene is supposedly not about just fashion.
i think that the biggest problem that most people, not just industrial
fans, have with goths, is that they are really pretentious. (not all mind
you ,but alot of them.) not to mention the majority of gothic music is
utter shite. i like the sisters, i like siouxsie, i like bauhaus, but it
really doesn't extend past that. (i don't consider c93, LPD, etc. to be
gothic music, and as far as i know they don't call themselves that) the
genre is too limiting. when a band sets out to be gothic, they usually
fail, because they limit themselves to the musical style. much better to
just make the music that you want, then to say that you have to be 'x' or
whatever. i see industrial music to be a much broader genre of music.
just look at r.m.i, and how many post are "is this industrial" , or
arguments over what is truly industrial. the fact that you can't place a
wall or limit on the genre i think says it all. i don't ever, (or didn't
ever, i haven't read alt.gothic in i really long time) see posts on that
news group about whether or not something is gothic (musically mind you)
or not, unless it was a joke. gothic music is not that hard to classify,
which to me is boring....
-n.-
Robert Campbell
Thin White Duke (die.spa...@address.in.sig) wrote:
} I absolutely loathe gothic music. I think it is *all*, without exception,
} complete and utter shite. But what I really hate about the whole
} subculture and genre is the fact that it is so inextricably linked with
} industrial music, at least here in NYC. You CANNOT go to a club to listen
} to industrial music in this city without being subjected to gothic for at
} least half the time. The best solution I've found is to go to the Batcave
} early, before anyone shows up, when they play industrial from 10 pm on. By
} 1 am, I know I can leave, because it's just not worth bearing all of the
} gothic crap to hear a few industrial songs.
} As for goths, in themselves, I don't hold anything against them, except for
} the things I also hold against rivetheads, punks, ravers, or anyone who
} conforms to any particular subculture, i.e. the fact that these people
} think they're being rebellious by acting and dressing in the same way, and
} listening to the same music. It's a phase for a lot of people, and I
} understand they'll grow out of it. But I really feel sorry for those 30
} year olds who are still goths. You gotta grow up sometime.
YES!!! Finally someone with some sense.
--
Politicians are people who take money from the rich and votes
from the poor in return for protecting each from the other
**************************************************************
Robert Courtney Campbell aka "Beej," "bj, "The Thirty-Thousand
Dollar Man" Civil Engineering Undergrad Student Georgia
Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332 uucp:
...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt3680b
gt3...@prism.gatech.edu http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gt3680b
**************************************************************
Robert P. Beveridge
Robb Cunningham wrote:
> I don't care what scene he is closely associated with, I have always
> considered Morrissey to be THE goth of the 80s. you can kick my ass now
> if you want.
Thpffffft. Johnyy Indovina could kick Morrisey's ass in a steel cage
match anyday.
heh,
TM(&G)
R5unit
The NYC scene is different from any scene I've had an opportunity to
experience, (ie-Florida, the South, San Fran, CA, West, etc.) The
difference is that we (NYC scene) are dying a slow horrible death. Perhaps
it is because we are a scene divided. I've noticed that other cities
embrace both the industrial and gothic genres equally -not just the DJs
but the fans as well. I am just as guilty for this division as anyone else
in NYC. I hate goths with a passion, but I'm trying very hard to reconcile
our differences. It seems to me that goths in other towns, cities are more
agressive and industrialist are more balanced in their emotions. I only
wish the same could be true for NYC. I hope that NYC is not the future for
any other scene, it would be disheartening to learn that other places are
becoming polarized. We have spred ourselves too thin and now we are
fading.
ArcHammer
Man, I wish Skinny Puppy was still around. Call me old fashioned, but I'm so out of touch with
music, I can't differentiate between what is Industrial and what is Goth (and what is pop music
nowadays). Will someone explain what "Darkwave" is? Where do old bands like Puppy, Neubauten or
Throbbing Gristle fit in here? I think we all got lost somewhere along the way. We were on a long
underwater trip, got turned around in the dark, and don't know which way is up anymore.
Pining for the days when Killing Joke were kings,
ArcHammer
Look out! His .sig is loaded!