Has LATA MANGESHKAR ever gone "besur / besura" in her filmy singing career !
Jay
all over the world
=========================================================
Facts are facts and they are irrevocable - even her staunchest admirer
can LISTEN and HONESTLY comment upon.
But first-n-foremost - let NANI brush up the attic of his RADDI and
advise the forum of the possibility of my 'pointer'.
Q 1 - Has such an incident ever happened in her career of 'recorded
music' ?
The answer to the above from NANI should be : YES or NO ( nothing
more, please !)
- If the answer is YES, Nani should provide further details of the
same. AND
- If the answer is NO or NEVER - he should accept his 'study' as
'slipshod' leaving much to be desired.
Now, the question that emerges automatically - how does one DEFINE
'besur / besura' from/by a singer of the stature of LATA MANGESHKAR !
- the various possibilities
Let NANI himself define it before the forum so that he cannot back-
track his statement made & secondly, the forum can come to know as to
how the experienced NANI perceives my pointer.
22/2
suhas
Jay , you have raised a good question and chosen right person to
answar you. ( but the moot point is who has appointed you to ask
questions -must be you your self)
any way you can not tell him how he should reply you.Let him reply -
only if he feels like- in his own way. you hav no right to put
yourself on higher level than him..
With the deep knowledge you claim to have you could have also answred
it if at all you had any answar And to my knowledge,
Besur/Besura ha nothing to do with singer's stature.
One questions rses in my mind while reading your messages - if you
think these group consists of fools why do you post ?.
Prof hi never replies you.Also He does not bark at the Dog who barks
at him/
sorry I am trying to be as blunt as you but I know Ican never match
your arrogance.Defeat accepted.
Bharat Pandya...
Jay
My questions are very blunt - no hidden or double-speak methods. and
no foul language anywhere hitherto. Your lack of understanding of my
post could be the reasons of frustration since you are not able to
address the issue in context.
Where is the 'arrogance' involved ! Instead its 'escapism' on your
part of not being able to confront the issue curtly. For this, one has
to be experienced in terms of 'listening maturity' with proper
analytical study.
Mere RADDI info does not help...including Wikipedia. Examples have to
be instantaneously provided by way of 'listening inputs' at the flick
of the mouse. Can you do that? Can others do it?
Why do you always have to see the negative side ? Why can't you view
the positive side. You come across NEW answers, new info..which
otherwise was absent / missing. You get fresh 'feeds' from
time2time....and all at someone's labour of LOVE to promote our
'Parampara'
If I am wrong, you have every right to SLAM / PUNCH me as you wish.
==================================================
Read my post again slowly every word, line for clarification.
22/2
Sunil Dandekar
I assume that you are not expecting this to be responded by Shri DN
alone. Hence venturing to put my thoughts forth. Gustakhi maaf.
Have you heard songs like Ai sanam aaj ye kasam khaye , or yalla yalla
dil le gaye. In the high pitch part of the song, at least I get a
feeling that LM has done a valiant effort to reach those notes but has
fallen short.
To be fair, I have not scanned those songs with frequency meter. Nor
am I tone perfect. So obviously my views are very very subjective.
I had written earlier on this topic, long back.
Jay have you thought about converting your queries to a discussion
form? That might lead to some constructive discussion. This particular
topic could have been presented as : " I, Jay believe that LM has
become besuri in songs X, Y and Z. What you guys think about it?
Instead of always trying to plumb the depth of the collective
ignorance (in not your so humble opinion) can you dazzle us with your
brilliance occassionally?
regards,
Sunil
PSCB87
> Jay have you thought about converting your queries to a discussion
> form? That might lead to some constructive discussion. This particular
> topic could have been presented as : " I, Jay believe that LM has
> become besuri in songs X, Y and Z. What you guys think about it?
>
> Instead of always trying to plumb the depth of the collective
> ignorance (in not your so humble opinion) can you dazzle us with your
> brilliance occassionally?
Kutte ki dum seehi karana chaahate ho? Good luck.
24/2
Jay
In this forum, there are so many rmimers who are staunch fans of LM
and her repertoire. Even the most frivolous songs of LM are given so
much attention by the individuals concerned. Then, there are also the
'technically qualified in Hindustani Music" who form another group of
the Lata-cult. There are also 'statisticians of the LM-cult
maintaining upto memorablia...in such a manner of perfection that
NOTHING..just NOTHING about the diva can go missing or left out !
Yes or No , Vinayak ji??
Under the circumstances and with so much 'ammunition of knowledge on
LM', why are they in a state of inertia ?
Its their turn now to respond
24/2\
AR
Au contraire! Lata is perhaps the most discussed artiste on RMIM, but
she isn't always praised here, as you blithely put it. She has been
heavily criticised on RMIM on many occasions, and certainly praised on
many others. In fact, after reading RMIM, I have come to know several
rare Lata songs, but more importantly, I have learned to appreciate
her better (not more, but *better*). I am surprised you accuse RMIMers
of being part of a Lata cult! Moreover, what is your grouse if some
people were staunch fans of her repertoire? So were Naushad, Salil
Chaudhary, Madan MOhan, S D Burman and even O P Nayyar.
Coming to your point about frivolous songs of Lata being given too
much coverage, how do you define frivolous? Are you saying happy,
peppy songs should never be discussed? Or are you saying that
whichever song you find frivolous shouldn't be discussed? Coming to
the main topic of this thread, how do you define besuraa? I have
observed that the perception of what is besuraa varies greatly amongst
people. For instance, I find that nowadays Yesudas sounds besuraa
almost consistently, but he has a sizeable community of fans who swear
that he still sounds as beautiful as (or even better than) he did when
he was 25 years old. When I attend Carnatic concerts where the artiste
renders the raaga Thodi, I sit transfixed, but I know people (mostly
those weaned on Hindustani music) who feel that the Carnatic Thodi
sounds hopelessly besuraa. So could you care to clearly explain what
you mean by besuraa or atleast give examples where you find Lata to
have gone off key, so as to have a meaningful discussion?
Vijay
RMIMers are from Venus, Jay is from Mars!:-)
Vijay
Jay
Are you a LATA addict or a cine music-addict??
If NONE, then this is not your 'cup of tea', please.
Just forget it and enjoy your style of music !
25/2\
PSCB87
By your own admission, you limit yourself to your 78 rpm collection. A
lot of music has been produced that you don't have or listen to. So
you are not a cine music addict. You are not a LATA fan therefore you
are not a LATA addict. So just forget talking about Lata and limit
yourself to the music that you continuously research.
You have nothing to offer to most people. Be happy with a few
bhaktas.The rest of the world is happy to get its music and
information from You Tube, Profji's website, Geet Kosh, WikiPedia and
many sources that make you irrelevant.
Only service you provide is entertainment of a different kind.
PSCB87
25/2
Archisman Mozumder
> I assume that you are not expecting this to be responded by Shri DN
> alone. Hence venturing to put my thoughts forth. Gustakhi maaf.
>
> Have you heard songs like Ai sanam aaj ye kasam khaye , or yalla yalla
> dil le gaye. In the high pitch part of the song, at least I get a
> feeling that LM has done a valiant effort to reach those notes but has
> fallen short.
>
> To be fair, I have not scanned those songs with frequency meter. Nor
> am I tone perfect. So obviously my views are very very subjective.
>
> I had written earlier on this topic, long back.
>
> Jay have you thought about converting your queries to a discussion
> form? That might lead to some constructive discussion. This particular
> topic could have been presented as : " I, Jay believe that LM has
> become besuri in songs X, Y and Z. What you guys think about it?
>
> Instead of always trying to plumb the depth of the collective
> ignorance (in not your so humble opinion) can you dazzle us with your
> brilliance occassionally?
>
> regards,
>
> Sunil
In my very humble opinion, during the period of 1955 to 1975, when the
Diva was at the peak of her box office and vocal prowess (and one can
stretch a couple of years backwards from 1955), barring O P Nayyar and
perhaps, Kalyanji Anandji (whose forte was male solos), every other
composer reserved his/her best tunes for Lata. SJ, Naushad and RD's
body of work may provide a debatable counter argument, but Lata was
the fulcrum of all that is good in HFM from 1955 to 1975. And when you
think that composers like MM, SC, Roshan, Chitragupt, SD, CR, Anil-
babu, Jaidev, Khaiyyam were operational during this period, the
respect for the Diva grows manifold.
Sunil, I'm somewhat in agreement with your views about some strain in
her vocal chords in some duets. Any solos that come to mind? (This is
an earnest question & not a rhetorical one!)
Regards.
naniwadekar
>
> In my very humble opinion, during the period of 1955 to 1975, when the
> Diva was at the peak of her box office and vocal prowess (and one can
> stretch a couple of years backwards from 1955),
>
You are seriously deluded if you think that Lata was at her peak when
she sang in Sangam or Guide or Anand or Amar Prem as compared to her
1951-1953 output in Malhar, Badi Bahoo, Shikast, Jhanjhar. The first
strain or screeching I can recall is in 'main piyaa terii' (1956-ish)
but a blemish here or there says nothing about a singer's overall
ability. And I am not taking into account several songs where I think
she and the composer just got it wrong and messed up the song. Compare
her superior solos to Meena Kapoor's versions in Anokha Pyar, and then
consider her infantile singing in 'ab yaad na kar' in the same film
with Mukesh. Meena Kapoor has sung the duet as a song should be sung.
Lata sounds hopelessly lost in her version, almost as if she is
purposely singing in a mocking tone in her own kitchen.
Fast forwarding to approx 1960, in 'jhaalaa
saakharapuDaa' (Mohityanchi Manjula, singing her own tune around
1960), a friend thinks it should have been one sur lower. I see his
point, but she might have calculated that she gained more than she
lost by not coming down by one sur.
- dn
Kalyan
I remember Vish used to say that the first time he heard Lata's voice
break was in "Kanchi re kanchi re" from "Hare Rama Hare
Krishna" (around "bas chup ri rehna ....."). I am not sure how serious
he was. I would think that given the huge number of songs she has sung
before that and the limitations of that period (single take of
everyone, cost involved in booking studios and various artists etc.),
I would think she would have gone besura a few times though she was
technically better than all her contemporaries. Also, I don't remember
any RMIMers, Lata fan or otherwise, claiming that Lata was never
besura. In fact, most hate her songs from 80s and 90s (some even
70s).
One song where I find her off-key is in the Ek Saal song by Ravi, "Sab
kuch luta ke".
Kalyan
Archisman Mozumder
>
>
>
> > In my very humble opinion, during the period of 1955 to 1975, when the
> > Diva was at the peak of her box office and vocal prowess (and one can
> > stretch a couple of years backwards from 1955),
>
> You are seriously deluded if you think that Lata was at her peak when
> she sang in Sangam or Guide or Anand or Amar Prem as compared to her
> 1951-1953 output in Malhar, Badi Bahoo, Shikast, Jhanjhar.
I used the 2 decade span as the period of vocal and box-office
supremacy. It need not necessarily be a complete overlap.
That said, there are enough and more songs of the Diva in the first
half of the 70-s that fall in the all time great category for me.
Primarily due to the Burmans. More credit to the junior one, though.
I'm perfectly comfortable even if I do not have many supporters of
this view.
Regards.
Deepak
It all depends on what approach one takes, doesn't it. One approach is
completely subjective, i.e. what one likes and what one does not. I
personally prescribe to this approach. I am not offended or upset if
my like and dislikes don't match someone else's. By the same token, I
don't give any one the right to tell me what I should or should not
like.
The other approach is more technical approach based on a singer's
ability to perform at a certain pitch or be able to navigate the
subtle nuances of a musical composition etc. etc. In that sense, I
would have to agree that Lata had peaked before 1960. But I continue
to love her songs released till some time in mid-70's.
To the issue of if Lata should have sung one sur lower or not, Vish
did something interesting for me one day when I was visiting him. He
used some software to lower the pitch of lata's rendition of kahaa.n
le chale ho from Durgesh Nandini by half a note. I have the original
as well as the half note lower version. Remember, he did not slow down
the song. The duration of the clip is exactly same in both versions.
Only the pitch is half a note lower in one comparted to other. I have
uploaded both versions to You Tube for any one interested. I will
remove them after one month (if I remember). They are here -
Original from DVD -
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koDVVdUcUfo>
Half note lower version -
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvlbpweaEwU>
Enjoy!
Deepak
Deepak
> It all depends on what approach one takes, doesn't it. One approach is
> completely subjective, i.e. what one likes and what one does not. I
> personally prescribe to this approach.
My bad. I meant to say "I personally subscribe to this approach".
Deepak
Vijay
Very nice! Thanks for posting this. Going by the 'subjective', I do
have a slight preference for the 2nd (- half note) version. Does make
her voice more soulful (pur-soz, as the say in Urdu), in keeping with
the mood of the song.
Vijay
Abhay Phadnis
(snip)
> To the issue of if Lata should have sung one sur lower or not, Vish
> did something interesting for me one day when I was visiting him. He
> used some software to lower the pitch of lata's rendition of kahaa.n
> le chale ho from Durgesh Nandini by half a note. I have the original
> as well as the half note lower version. Remember, he did not slow down
> the song. The duration of the clip is exactly same in both versions.
> Only the pitch is half a note lower in one comparted to other. I have
> uploaded both versions to You Tube for any one interested. I will
> remove them after one month (if I remember). They are here -
Many thanks for this! I have always believed that most MDs have done
Lata - and all of us - a great disservice by pitching her songs so
high. This is proof of the pudding - I love the original song, but the
lowered version sounds even better to my ears. I am tempted to do this
to half-a-dozen other songs right away!
Warm regards,
Abhay
Deepak
I think Vish feels the same way (that MDs pushed Lata to sing in
higher pitch than was right). I don't want to put words in his mouth.
But, he did this software based lowering of the pitch to prove his
point to me. I too agree that to my ears, the half note lower version
sounds more appealing.
Deepak
Deepak
Actually, since two people liked the reduced pitch version, I thought
I will upload a third version where we simply reduced the playback
speed of the DVD by 5% and recorded the audio. So this third clip is
slightly longer duration (1:53 instead of 1:48) and the reduction is
pitch is due to slower play back. I liked the pitch reduction without
slowing down the speed better. Your preference may be different and I
am fine with it.
So here are the three links again -
Original from DVD -
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koDVVdUcUfo>
Half note lower version without speed reduction -
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvlbpweaEwU>
Lower pitch due to speed reduction (DVD play back at 95% of normal
speed)
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFSSyFeB-xk>
Enjoy!!
Deepak
Vijay
This is very revealing indeed. Thanks for taking the time. I still
prefer the half pitch version, as Lata's voice sounds qualitatively
different (and better). The slower DVD version sounds, er, just that;
slowed down, but the same original high pitch (a little shrieky, if
you may) voice. So in order of preference, FWIW, I will go with 1.
Half pitch, 2. Original, 3. Slowed down.
Vijay
Afzal A. Khan
From a lay listener's point of view .......
Shri Vish Krishnan does have a valid point. But, at the end of
the day, the basic conclusion is still the same : some will still
prefer the original version, while others may choose either of the
other two versions. Personally, I am not comfortable with the
third version (95 % speed).
Another point that needs to be kept in view is that the original
song should be heard and viewed in the context of the film version.
That is to say, the situation and the surroundings in which the
song occurs in the film. If a dream sequence is involved or if
some echo effect is sought, then that may affect the MD's choice
of the sur.
On the whole, I would say that Hemant Kumar's music is of the slow,
languorous (almost ponderous) variety. As compared to, say, SJ,
he has far fewer songs that employ very high notes.
Lastly, can we have a similar exercise done with a SJ-Lata song ?
{Lata herself had had complaints in this regard.}
I don't know if Shri Deepak Sabnis has access to that special
software originally used for the "Durgesh Nandini" song. If not,
my suggestion will mean an imposition on Shri Krishnan.
I wonder if we shall ever hear anything definitive with respect to
this issue from Jay himself.
Afzal
Deepak
>
>
> I don't know if Shri Deepak Sabnis has access to that special
> software originally used for the "Durgesh Nandini" song. If not,
> my suggestion will mean an imposition on Shri Krishnan.
>
I was at Vish's home and the software was on his computer. He used it
to show me the difference in how the song would sound "better" if only
it was sung in a note that was half a note lower. This was approx 2
years ago. Although he and I live in the same town, he is a busy man
and I end up meeting him mostly at RMIM meets. I have forgotten what
software he used, but there are many packages one can experiment with.
Most tend to be expensive for a hobbyist. They are meant for
commercial creative use.
Deepak
Srinivas Ganti
> On Feb 25, 3:59 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I don't know if Shri Deepak Sabnis has access to that special
> > software originally used for the "Durgesh Nandini" song. If not,
> > my suggestion will mean an imposition on Shri Krishnan.
>
> software he used, but there are many packages one can experiment with.
Sound Forge ? Adobe Audition ?
Deepak
I think it was Adobe Audition. You will have to ask Vish.
Prithviraj Dasgupta
> Lastly, can we have a similar exercise done with a SJ-Lata song ?
> {Lata herself had had complaints in this regard.}
>
> I don't know if Shri Deepak Sabnis has access to that special
> software originally used for the "Durgesh Nandini" song. If not,
> my suggestion will mean an imposition on Shri Krishnan.
>
> I wonder if we shall ever hear anything definitive with respect to
> this issue from Jay himself.
>
> Afzal
Soundforge, cooledit (now audition) have had pitch adjustment
capability since their earliest releases over a decade ago. It's also
seems to be available on the freeware Audacity (I haven't used it on
Aud. but this tutorial seems to show how to):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3ntEZXztYk
-----------
From what I heard/read, pitch change, etc. digital post-processing
techniques are regularly used nowadays for many singers to make their
voices sound musically "acceptable".
Prithviraj Dasgupta
FWIW, the link below is 2nd stanza from what's most likely the 78 rpm
version (from audio CD; 78 record source since 3rd stanza is absent,
total track length 3:14). Somehow it doesn't sound as high pitched as
the DVD-unaltered version. If Jay has 78 record, he could try to
upload this song for a comparison.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYe_HMqnYRE
Hemant's rendition of same song is at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3NQZP9Tw4k
I heard Hemant sing this live in late 70s (not the recording in the
youtube video) and felt that he had done a pretty good job at singing
it, despite his age (almost 60) at that point.
Archisman Mozumder
>
> It all depends on what approach one takes, doesn't it. One approach is
> completely subjective, i.e. what one likes and what one does not. I
> personally prescribe to this approach. I am not offended or upset if
> my like and dislikes don't match someone else's. By the same token, I
> don't give any one the right to tell me what I should or should not
> like.
>
Thanks Deepak. What you have said has been repeated by a lot of lot of
level-headed RMIM-ers before and yet we find posts where (semi) digs
are taken to impose one's point of view. :)
Dhananjay, Sangam & Guide were released in 1964 & 65 respectively. I
just checked some of the releases in these two years and I think there
are some absolutely stunning songs of the Diva which compare
favourably with her output of the early 50-s. I find some of the
following songs absolutely peerless:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohVlwEZO3fk (Chitralekha)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpmGYGnN-ts&feature=related
(Chitralekha, again)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFU-3wZ1HQw (Haqeeqat)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FNR4b9nozg (Benazir)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFr6G5zveS8 (Woh Kaun Thi)
and many more.
Regards.
naniwadekar
>
> Dhananjay, Sangam & Guide were released in 1964 & 65 respectively. I
> just checked some of the releases in these two years and I think there
> are some absolutely stunning songs of the Diva which compare
> favourably with her output of the early 50-s. I find some of the
> following songs absolutely peerless:
>
It is silly to post a youtube link to the video of Bedi hitting 3
sixes and scoring a damaging Test-50, and point out that Gavaskar
failed to reach double figures several times in his prime. Or to claim
that Federer was better in 2009 than 2006 because he won the French-
Wimbledon double only in 2009. Lata's songs for Hridaynath around 1968
compare with her best singing but it took Hridaynath to make her sing
well in late 60s. In early 50s, she was making even a boring MD like
Madan Mohan sound like Hridaynath. (Of course, that's tongue-in-cheek
because MM was plenty good in 1950s.) I never disputed that Lata has
sung several great songs in 1960s (but not in Chitralekha); however
even in her good songs during 1960s the damage to her voice is almost
always clear. It is the claim that she was at the peak of her powers
from 1956 to 1975 that is moronic. During 1961 to 1975, Lata, Asha,
Rafi and Kishore were the biggest names among singers, and each of
them played a villain quite ably. But the biggest culprit were the
MDs. In 1930s, Boral could make even the gurakha in Deepak Sabnis'
hostel sing well. In 1960s, S D Burman could not get even Lata to sing
well. Actually he was inept with Lata even in early 1950s.
- dn
Archisman Mozumder
>
> It is silly to post a youtube link to the video of Bedi hitting 3
> sixes and scoring a damaging Test-50, and point out that Gavaskar
> failed to reach double figures several times in his prime. Or to claim
> that Federer was better in 2009 than 2006 because he won the French-
> Wimbledon double only in 2009. Lata's songs for Hridaynath around 1968
> compare with her best singing but it took Hridaynath to make her sing
> well in late 60s. In early 50s, she was making even a boring MD like
> Madan Mohan sound like Hridaynath. (Of course, that's tongue-in-cheek
> because MM was plenty good in 1950s.) I never disputed that Lata has
> sung several great songs in 1960s (but not in Chitralekha); however
> even in her good songs during 1960s the damage to her voice is almost
> always clear. It is the claim that she was at the peak of her powers
> from 1956 to 1975 that is moronic. During 1961 to 1975, Lata, Asha,
> Rafi and Kishore were the biggest names among singers, and each of
> them played a villain quite ably. But the biggest culprit were the
> MDs. In 1930s, Boral could make even the gurakha in Deepak Sabnis'
> hostel sing well. In 1960s, S D Burman could not get even Lata to sing
> well. Actually he was inept with Lata even in early 1950s.
>
> - dn
Dhananjay, you can carry on a discussion with me without using words
like 'moronic' etc. Or is it absolutely beyond you?
Else you stay with your ideas about Hridaynath being better than Madan
Mohan or SD was inept with Lata in the early 50-s (This includes Sazaa
as well, right?).
I'll be happy with my belief that there are at least 2 songs in
Chitralekha that belong to the category of great songs by Lata.
And ignore all your posts hereafter.
Warm regards.
Jay
understand.
Today, I was digitalising as usual some songs of the diva of films
around the period 1949 and I did find her 'high pitched voice quite
OK...smooth-n-well maintained in good no.of songs. But her voice
started 'CRACKING UP from 1955 onwards.Songs of the diva post 1960 are
not worth discussing.
In one song of hers, she had to COMMENCE her lines from 'high
pitch' ( like Rafi in ACTRESS: Zara to soch uska haal kya hoga.... )
Believe me , those particular lines on listening..anyone would
exclaim.: BESURA; BESURA . Lata actually SCREAMS ( as if someone is
'strangling her neck").
Now, if I am WRONG in making such observations, it automatically
deduces that Jay has just NO IDEA of the diva's ways of singing as
some of her staunch votaries would be quick to point out..Still, the
fact remains lucidly established:
LATA's high pitched songs were carefully woven by adept-n-skilled MDs
between 1948-1954. I will not take any names of these skilled MDs.and
leave that to the readers' options.Post 1955, although she has
rendered quite a no.of those types, she just cannot reach that
pinnacle ..in the way/manner like NJ, or PAP , S.Varalaxmi or
U.R.Jeewaratnam.
It is not merely transcending on high pitch..the voice jugglery has to
be displayed at that level as conceived by the MD concerned..
Md Rafi can transcend to high pitched scales...thats all..but cannot
juggle at that level. Comparitively, listen how these famous qawwals
like Bande Hassan are able to deliver !
In Tamil, it was T.R Mahalingam, M.K.T unbeatable by any standards.
These are facts and not fiction.
26/2
naniwadekar
>
> I'll be happy with my belief that there are at least 2 songs in
> Chitralekha that belong to the category of great songs by Lata.
>
While 'sa.nsaar se bhaage phirate ho' is not among Roshan's best for
Lata, I am fine with calling it 'great'. Lata seems to be singing it
seriously and sincerely. Other two songs, depending on my mood, range
between merely good to quite bad (IMO, of course). Especially 'sakhii
rii meraa man ulajhe' is of 'chalta hai' variety.
The best songs in Chitralekha (check giitaayan.com) are not composed
by Roshan, nor sung by Lata.
- dn
naniwadekar
> The best songs in Chitralekha (check giitaayan.com) are not
> composed by Roshan, nor sung by Lata.
Please read:
The best songs in Chitralekha (check giitaayan.com) are not
sung by Lata, nor composed by Roshan .
Asif
>
> and many more.
>
> Regards.
Actually, I think the general behavior among music lovers, especially
those fed on the ‘30s and ‘40s stuff, is to first know/check who the
music director is and then judge who the singer is. How well or bad
the singer sang a song largely depends, for them, on whether or not
they like the music director.
So, no matter how well Lata sang a song, if it was not composed by one
of their favorite composers, then it means to them that Lata’s voice
cracked in the song. The problem with these music lovers is that they
are upset that their favorite music directors could not survive beyond
the ‘40s or ‘50s; else Lata would have sounded perfect in their songs
even in the ‘60s and ‘70s too. Take, for example, Hridayanath
Mangeshkar. The reason why he did not succeed in Hindi films is
because he was very ordinary music director and had to depend on his
sisters to get work. The only song from his baton that I liked just a
bit was ‘ye aa.nkhe.n dekhkar’ (Dhanwan, 1980); I did not like any of
his songs in his more celebrated film Lekin (1991) because they were
all dull and boring even if Lata may have done well in them. The
point is: I did not feel attracted at all to his music.
I grew up loving music of RD Burman, SD Burman, OP Nayyar, and Shankar-
Jaikishan. Yet I always listened to a whole lot of other music
directors’ songs too – from the ’40s through ‘90s – and whenever I
liked a song on first listening to it, I did not care who composed
it. For example, I never liked Bappi Lahir’s style of music, yet I
loved his ‘jalta hai jiya mera’ (Zakhmee, 1975). When Lata sang ‘gori
hain kalaaiyaan’ (Aaj Ka Arjun, 1991) I just loved it without knowing
for a long time the identity of its composer (Bappi Lahiri).
Similarly, I loved Lata in ‘choori maza na degi’ (Sanam Bewafa, 1991)
too – and I soon forgot who composed it. And that was years after I
had stopped listening to new and contemporary songs on the radio. I
got to listen to these beautifully-composed songs on Binaca Geetmala
weekly shows which I listened to occasionally.
I rate some of Lata’s songs for SDB and RDB among her finest, e.g.
‘rangeela re’ (Prem Pujari, 1970), ‘jaise raadha ne maala japi’ (Tere
Mere Sapne, 1971), ‘piya bina’ (Abhimaan, 1973), ‘ab to hai
tumse’ (Abhimaan, 1973), ‘na koi umang hai’ (Kati Patang, 1970), ‘na
ja o mere hamdam’ (Pyar Ka Mausam, 1969), ‘baahon mein chale
aao’ (Anamika, 1973), and ‘mere naina saawan bhaadon’ (Mehbooba,
1976). You may credit all these songs to any other music directors
and wipe out SDB’s and RDB’s names from them, and I will still take
them. Lata is simply brilliant in all these songs!
Anyway, I guess it is normal to first feel attracted to music and then
like the singer. So I totally understand the frustration of old-
timers that their favorite music directors could not keep pace with
changing times; else these music lovers would have been luckier and
been able to appreciate songs from legendary singers like Rafi,
Kishore, Lata, and Asha, too (because these singers would have then
sung for these music lovers' favorite composers too) – instead of
hiding behind the lame excuse of ‘hearing’ cracks in those singers’
voices.
Sunil Dandekar
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jay,
What are your notions of Besura? The whole discussion seems to be
focussed around LM's inability to sing some high pitched notes. In my
opinion a singer can be besura in following ways:
1) (s)he understands the notes to be sung, but has vocal limitations
to reach there. Examples given by me fit in this category.
2) MD wanted her/him to sing a specific sequence of notes and (s)he
was not able to do it. This can not be proven. No MD after say 1958-60
would have dared to say that.
3) The singer is singing a song based on HCM and (s)he sings a note
that is not acceptable even as a variation. Once again difficult to
prove whether the variation is intentional or accidental.
What particular variety of besur you are looking at? I am not
competent to talk about 2) and 3) for LM's singing. She has probably
fogotten more about music than what I will ever learn.
regards,
Sunil
Sunil Dandekar
Fully agree. Chitralekha is perhaps one of Roshan saab's best. Very
talented but very underrated composer in my opinion.
But the best in Chitralekha does not belong to LM. IMO that happens to
be kaahe tarasaaye.. Mind blowing composition.
regards,
dn.usenet
"Sunil Dandekar" <sunil.dandekar @ gmail.com> wrote :
>
> The whole discussion seems to be focussed around
> LM's inability to sing some high pitched notes.
>
Lata's ability to sing high notes has never been questioned. Compared to
Lata, every other film singer is just an also-ran. People who are best
qualified to talk about the topic are on record that Lata is the most
sureeli singer by miles in general (not excluding classical singers) and
among film singers, there is nobody else who comes close. Even Vamanrao
Deshpande, not a person you would expect to talk about Lata, has said in his
book on classical gharanas that Lata can suggest by just one note that she
has the key to the mystery that is music. IMO this claim cannot be made
about any other singer. Vamanrao did not make the claim about any classical
singer because Lata is better equipped to represent the ideal of Indian
Music than even gharanedar singers.
I think Lata has sung 'ai sanam aaj ye qasam khaaye' perfectly competently.
She was less fluent about everything in 1960s compared to her early 1950s
peak; less fluent not just with high notes but any notes. Her voice had
deteriorated more than anybody else's by the time she was 30 for whatever
reasons. But she had climbed the highest peaks which others couldn't even
dream about, and the fall was consequently more pronounced. Lata just lost
interest in singing well, and hung around like Maradona did in 1990 world
cup, still capable of producing better 30 seconds than anybody else, but she
just could not be bothered. It did not help that the MDs were such bozos,
and composed boring songs like 'hai tere saath merii wafaa' and 'terii
aankhon ke siwaa duniyaa me.n'. When MDs did compose good songs and Lata did
sing sincerely, results could be stunning even in 1960s. Hindi filmdom,
always a murky world, was positively infested with pigs by the time 1960s
rolled around. Heroines became ugly, music became uglier, watching public
became sub-human. It is okay that Asha, KK and Rafi hung around in that
cesspit. Lata should have left it. It is a black mark against her that she
did not. Her legacy would have been higher if she had stopped singing Hindi
Film songs from 1961 or 1966. As it is, her achievement was so colossal that
despite her own strenuous efforts to tarnish her legacy, the achievement is
still impossible to miss.
Check Lata's songs for Hridaynath in late 1960s (Meera, Ghalib, Jnaneshwar).
Check Lata's songs for Vasant Prabhu in 1960s, like 'anaam veeraa'. She
wasn't at her peak in 1960s, yet she always did justice to good assigments
but they were fewer and were to be found away from the mainstream Hindi
cinema.
- dn
dn.usenet
"dn.usenet" <dn.u...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8sthj5...@mid.individual.net...
>
> Hindi filmdom,
> always a murky world, was positively infested with pigs by the time 1960s
> rolled around. Heroines became ugly, music became uglier, watching public
> became sub-human. It is okay that Asha, KK and Rafi hung around in that
> cesspit. Lata should have left it. It is a black mark against her that she
> did not.
>
Talat Mahmood withdrew from the film world in 1960s. It's true that he just
did not get any assigments but he was picky even in 1950s. He wasn't just a
great artist but a great human being. He always treated his art with
dignity. Lata did not.
- dn
Jay
> "dn.usenet" <dn.use...@gmail.com> wrote in message
These junior rmimers have just no CLUE of spotting out the ' real
element that makes any song catchy or novel or unique or something
totally refined in musical genres imparted into the 3.0 to 3.30 mins
duration of a song.
The MD is the SUPREME ARCHITECT of any song composed by him/her. -
this is precisely what I had told Anil Biswas during my meeting with
him.
It is the MD and MD only ( not the MDs of 1950 onwards...some
conditions do exist) who get the MAJOR CREDIT PRIMARILY.
All others follow next , begining with the singer(s) . Becoz the
singer STILL has no clue to the song in question which he/she has to
sing.
( will take a break here )
27/2
PSCB87
>
> ( will take a break here )
>
Make it a long one. Really really long one.
27/2
surjit singh
> On Feb 26, 5:04 am, Archisman Mozumder <archi...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 26, 2:20 am, Deepak <deepak_sab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > It all depends on what approach one takes, doesn't it. One approach is
> > > completely subjective, i.e. what one likes and what one does not. I
> > > personally prescribe to this approach. I am not offended or upset if
> > > my like and dislikes don't match someone else's. By the same token, I
> > > don't give any one the right to tell me what I should or should not
> > > like.
>
> > Thanks Deepak. What you have said has been repeated by a lot of lot of
> > level-headed RMIM-ers before and yet we find posts where (semi) digs
> > are taken to impose one's point of view. :)
>
> > Dhananjay, Sangam & Guide were released in 1964 & 65 respectively. I
> > just checked some of the releases in these two years and I think there
> > are some absolutely stunning songs of the Diva which compare
> > favourably with her output of the early 50-s. I find some of the
> > following songs absolutely peerless:
>
> > (Chitralekha, again)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFU-3wZ1HQw(Haqeeqat)http://www.youtub...Kaun Thi)
Similar point can be made about people who like post-Saigal music.
They go back to the 30s and 40s, and not finding their familiar MDs,
lyricists and singers there,
start making claims like, the poetry was no good, music was primitive,
singers were nasal.
surjit singh
For people who believe that Lata lost her touch from the 60s onwards,
I offer the following quotation from the Encyclopedia of Indian Cinema
by Rajadhyaksha and Willemen:
"Since the 50s, possibly following Bhai Bhai (1956), she perfected her
apparently effortless, high-pitched voice projection, usually in C
sharp, a technique said to overcome the crude sound reproduction on
rickety gramophones and in suburban and rural cinemas."
One can imagine how the voice sounded on better equipment. Did she do
this to herself or somebody else put her up to it?, we will never
know.
Jay
Thanks, Profji very much, for joining the on-going FUN about LM's
approach to high-pitched singing in her recorded songs.
Whatever you may offer as reference....has no value at all...ZERO.
These so called writers of Encyclopedias hve only done their 'allotted
jobs' for the publication and marketing. To make quick money by
putting up some masala of the subject concerned. Certainly, they are
not enlightening . They can be ALWAYS BE CAUGHT ON THE WRONG FOOT
during a face2face confrontation with "no refce books on hand".
No guy will come forward , trust me ! Reasons are well known bcoz
these chaps have never done any in-depth probing, i.e. more-n-more of
little-n-little with documented listening facilities on the spot
during any discussion.
Only gullible music lovers like the ITAB Rmimers get indicted into
these hi-profiled writers' modus operandi.
V.A.K.Rangarao of Chennai who is much senior to me by age as well as
in cine music indulgence and an avid C.Ramchandra fan never talks on
cine music anymore. WHY? His health is absolutely perfect even now.
Then, why has VAKR's passion for music DEAD. Thhis was the same person
who used to write now-n-then in SCREEN and other filmy perriodicals.
The music in him HAS DIED as of now. WHY.?? He is not interested in
cine music anymore..thats what he claims. Neither is he willing to
part away his huge stockpile library. Aisa kyun, Profji.
I once told him: VAKR - Suppose I bring some 100 mint copies of your
most wanted numbers and place them on your table - Here VAKR, all this
is for you and you only...free of cost and no conditions on/for
them ??whatsoever. And added: Will you accept those 100 numbers ??
Yes or NO !!
Let the readers offer their reaction first.
27/2
Deepak
I have heard similar explanation from some others too. The technology
used in those days for recording and reproduction of sound was not
exactly hi fi.
Deepak
kcp
But, at the end of
> the day, the basic conclusion is still the same : some will still
> prefer the original version, while others may choose either of the
> other two versions. Personally, I am not comfortable with the
> third version (95 % speed).
Wanted to ask this question for a long time now - Does some film
versions sound too fast, than the Original/Vinyl ones ?
kcp
Sunil Dandekar
> "Sunil Dandekar" <sunil.dandekar @ gmail.com> wrote :
>
>
>
> > The whole discussion seems to be focussed around
> > LM's inability to sing some high pitched notes.
>
> Lata's ability to sing high notes has never been questioned. Compared to
> Lata, every other film singer is just an also-ran.
Evidently you hold the same regard for LM that I do for MR. So
probably no dialogue is possible. However I have always shuddered at
the LM's high pitch singing. Like somebody running down his nails
across the blackboard.
>People who are best
> qualified to talk about the topic are on record that Lata is the most
> sureeli singer by miles in general (not excluding classical singers) and
> among film singers, there is nobody else who comes close. Even Vamanrao
> Deshpande, not a person you would expect to talk about Lata, has said in his
> book on classical gharanas that Lata can suggest by just one note that she
> has the key to the mystery that is music. IMO this claim cannot be made
> about any other singer. Vamanrao did not make the claim about any classical
> singer because Lata is better equipped to represent the ideal of Indian
> Music than even gharanedar singers.
No doubt about her singing prowess. But in my mind, her deification is
not warranted. IMHO AB is a better all round singer than her.
> I think Lata has sung 'ai sanam aaj ye qasam khaaye' perfectly competently.
We differ. There is a part that goes muskurayega jahan , blah bla blah
blah blah blah blah ishque kyun paida kiya etc
Both LM and TM are unlistenable there. Pure home antaxari type
singing.
> She was less fluent about everything in 1960s compared to her early 1950s
> peak; less fluent not just with high notes but any notes. Her voice had
> deteriorated more than anybody else's by the time she was 30 for whatever
> reasons. But she had climbed the highest peaks which others couldn't even
> dream about, and the fall was consequently more pronounced. Lata just lost
> interest in singing well, and hung around like Maradona did in 1990 world
> cup, still capable of producing better 30 seconds than anybody else, but she
> just could not be bothered. It did not help that the MDs were such bozos,
> and composed boring songs like 'hai tere saath merii wafaa' and 'terii
> aankhon ke siwaa duniyaa me.n'. When MDs did compose good songs and Lata did
> sing sincerely, results could be stunning even in 1960s. Hindi filmdom,
> always a murky world, was positively infested with pigs by the time 1960s
> rolled around. Heroines became ugly, music became uglier, watching public
> became sub-human. It is okay that Asha, KK and Rafi hung around in that
> cesspit. Lata should have left it. It is a black mark against her that she
> did not. Her legacy would have been higher if she had stopped singing Hindi
> Film songs from 1961 or 1966. As it is, her achievement was so colossal that
> despite her own strenuous efforts to tarnish her legacy, the achievement is
> still impossible to miss.
>
> Check Lata's songs for Hridaynath in late 1960s (Meera, Ghalib, Jnaneshwar).
> Check Lata's songs for Vasant Prabhu in 1960s, like 'anaam veeraa'. She
> wasn't at her peak in 1960s, yet she always did justice to good assigments
> but they were fewer and were to be found away from the mainstream Hindi
> cinema.
DN you seem to like the quieter songs. That does not mean that there
is no place for other types. Perhaps it takes a singing talent of
altogether different level to sing say Hungama ho gaya as compared to
Anaam veera (beautiful song though). I always maintain, it is possible
that the song is atrocious but the singing is divine.
regards,
Sunil
dn.usenet
"Sunil Dandekar" wrote :
>
> DN you seem to like the quieter songs. That does not mean
> that there is no place for other types.
>
The first statement is correct. I have never implied the second from it. I
like the singing part of R D Burman's stolen song 'mehbooba mehbooba', but
the instrumental part is revolting. Anil Biswas has some wonderfully raucous
Holi-type songs to his credit, included in Denver-2001 rmim commemorative.
But the staple diet I prefer consists of quieter songs.
As for the modern, popular, noisy songs, their popularity and the type of
people who listen to them is proof enough to me that they are not fit for
human consumption. It is not possible for any cultured human being to spend
even 5 minutes in any Indian grocery or restaurant near San Jose today or in
a bus between Pune and Mumbai because of the junk music which is constantly
played loudly to regale the customers.
- dn
Sreenivas Paruchuri
statements as below? Or do you go to Chennai often; esp. during the
"Music season" or to kaarveTipuram during SriikRshNa janmaashTami, or ....?
Anyway, every time I read your posting I am reminded of this cATu verse
in Sanskrit:
ghaTaM bhittvA paTaM chittvA kuryAd vA gArdhabha-svanaM
yena kenâpyupAyena prasiddhaH puruSo bhava
Go and figure out the meaning!
Regards,
Sreenivas
Sukesh
In my opinion, for the majority of people, melody is the prime consideration when it comes to liking or disliking a song. If the singer adds a magical touch to it and/or the lyrics is of high quality and/or great orchestration, so much the better. Very few, other than the die-hard fans perhaps, would like/not like or pretend to like/not like a song solely on the basis that so and so is the singer / composer. However, one man's meat another one's poison.
The singers who lasted for years and have hundreds/thousands of songs to their credit must have more positives than the negatives. If out of the large repertoire, a singer is supposedly has been found wanting (besuraa or whatever by the 'people in the know') in a couple of songs, so what is the big deal? Nobody is perfect. Their overall contribution is still outstanding. To say that so and so cant sing based on a few songs is just not on. Moreover, it is to be remembered that it is the composer who puts a stamp of approval to the song and the singing and who in the first place had selected the singer in question to render his creation.
Regards
Sukesh
naniwadekar
>
> To say that so and so cant sing based on a few songs is just not on.
>
particular, I agree with the stmt above. But it is your double-speak
that is tiresome and dishonest. You have told Jayaraman many times
that you do not like 1930s and 1940s music. Fair enough. But if you
have an agenda, why complain when Jayaraman brings his agenda? You
don't like it when swipes are taken against the music which you like,
protesting that 'singers who lasted for years and have hundreds/
thousands of songs to their credit must have more positives than the
lasted for years. And they are, in general, spoken about as inspiring
artists by their successors. They lasted for years, so, by your logic,
they 'must have more positives than the negatives'. Why do you fail to
apply your own logic consistently? Or is it to be brandished only when
it is convenient to you?
- dn
Jay
When I bring in VAKR into the picture, why do u start your Sanskrit
hymns?
I am not used to Sanskrit..zero. You may be an authority..whatever.
Come down on a fair playing field and lets keep it in English.
Whatever you want to say, put it in English.
I need not go to Chennai as per your suggestion. That man, VAKR, once
upon a time used to keep on writing so much on cine music in umpteen
no.of publications...why has / is it DEAD..totally DEAD now? Despite
he being very healthy and active curre3ntly, why has HIS CINE MUSIC
PASSION DIED a dog's DEATH ??
He could be doing research on anything currently...for what purpose?
For whose benefit or enlightening ? The task he had taken up when he
was young-n-resourceful ..is lying abandoned - he has no playing
source and neither has he the TIME for his existing library, WHY ?
Let his disciples answer in English.
28/2
Abhay Jain
"kcp" wrote in message
news:fd08ede0-a8ab-4eae...@s18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
So often and mostly with VCDs. Entire VCD of Kangan 1959 I have
is about 15% faster. I don't know to slow down a video.
AJ
Jay
This refers to my TAKSAL Clip fed into your individuial IBs yday/27th.
The individual EGOs of the diva's FANS are receiving a severe jolt and
they have NO ANSWER to my question posed !
=====================================================================================
They keep blaming and finding fault with the recording company for
manufacturing defects and trying every possible way of shielding her
image. But facts are facts. You all never believed it,and now its
ringing in to your ears the TRUTH.
Why don't you accept it gracefully..that SHE has blundered in one
specific case of TAKSAL ('55).
Profji::
Do your Encyclopedia authors ever aware of this 'blunder'. Be honest
to yourself and reply.
They won't bother: Raat gayi..so baat gayi
Aisi hai yeh ITAB duniya,
28/2
PSCB87
> On Feb 27, 11:34 pm, Sreenivas Paruchuri <sre...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> > Anyway, every time I read your posting I am reminded of this cATu verse
> > in Sanskrit:
>
> > ghaTaM bhittvA paTaM chittvA kuryAd vA gArdhabha-svanaM
> > yena kenâpyupAyena prasiddhaH puruSo bhava
>
> > Go and figure out the meaning!
>
> > Regards,
> > Sreenivas
>
>
> hymns?
>
> I am not used to Sanskrit..zero. You may be an authority..whatever.
> Come down on a fair playing field and lets keep it in English.
> Whatever you want to say, put it in English.
>
Happy to help dear Jay. Roughly translated, it means -
Break Pots, Tear your clothes, Make noise like a Donkey
Do what ever it takes to become famous...
28/2
Sukesh
I did not name any singers and periods. My comments were generic and are applicable to all the periods and to all the singers. Nowhere in my posts I have ever run down any singers or periods, which I may not care about. I have my own likes and that in no way is to be construed to mean running down other artistes from any period. I have never said that so and so cannot sing or is s lousy one, unlike you sitting in judgment and pass off your opinions/biases as some kind of gospel truth, which personally I may give a damn, though I would defend your right to have your own views/opinions. At most, I may say is A is better than B and qualify it as my personal opinion and that too does not mean that B cannot compose or sing. End of the discussion.
Regards
Sukesh
Sukesh
Regards
Sukesh
Jay
Let the Sanskrit pundit say it in his own words !
&
PSCB87 must surely have been shocked to listen to the diva's
"karkashya awaz" highlited into his IB !!
'Karkashya' or 'beysur' - the meaning is the same more or less.
28/2
PSCB87
>
> PSCB87 must surely have been shocked to listen to the diva's
> "karkashya awaz" highlited into his IB !!
I never signed up to receive any songs from you. I have never sent you
any e-mail. You have never sent me any e-mail with or without music.
So there is no question of listening to any thing from you in my IB.
Is this one more of your imagination?
Oh wait, you are not serious because you did not make that ridiculous
claim in CAPITAL LETTERS.
Now go out and start making donkey noises.
28/2
Archisman Mozumder
>
> Fully agree. Chitralekha is perhaps one of Roshan saab's best. Very
> talented but very underrated composer in my opinion.
>
> But the best in Chitralekha does not belong to LM. IMO that happens to
> be kaahe tarasaaye.. Mind blowing composition.
>
> regards>
Yes Sunil. Kaahe Tarsaaye is a wonderful number. Thanks for your
views.
What an album! Goes a long way in making 1964 a very very musical year
for HFM.
For me, the two arid desrt songs from this desrt island track are
'sakhi ri mera' and 'man re tu kaahe naa' (of Mohd. Rafi).
Lata's voice is like sugar cubes dipped in honey.
Regards.
dn.usenet
"PSCB87" <pscb87 @ hotmail.com> wrote :
>
> I never signed up to receive any songs from you. I have never
> Dombivali, I have done so without telling you that I use PSCB87
> as my id. But I have also made it painfully obvious that you
> irritate the heck out of me from your perch in Dombivali. And
> since I like to come off as a gentleman under my own name,
> I use this cowardly id to post rude responses to you.
>
(On behalf of 'Madhukar Rajasthani', who wanted to correct several
spelling mistakes in the original message. The message has been
re-posted above accordingly.)
dn.usenet
> (On behalf of 'Madhukar Rajasthani', ...
>
Madhukar-ji: Keep me out of this. Also keep yourself out of this, if you can
help it.
PSCB87-ji: Allowing for 1% chance that you are not what we think you are,
you are still making a fool of yourself, whoever you may be. Jayaraman's
analysis of the Taksaal song is crazy. Your responses are equally crazy. But
Jayaraman at least sent a song to a few email addresses and has some
redeeming features. You are nothing but a pathetically useless fellow. More
than anybody else, you need to keep out of this. Until now, the most
worthless comments in Jayaraman's threads used to be by Jayaraman himself,
and occasionally by DS. Now PSCB's comments are worse than Jayaraman's.
- dn
dn.usenet
of absolute truth and running down others who do not concur with him.
> I have stopped reacting to his comments.
>
Granted that you have stopped since last few days/weeks.
- dn
PSCB87
Just in case any one refers to this post in future, this is a forgery
by dn.usenet. He is attributing a quote to me, that do not reflect my
words.
Abhay Phadnis
(snip)
>
> 'Karkashya' or 'beysur' - the meaning is the same more or less.
"karkashya" and "besur" are completely different attributes: the first
one relates to the sound of the singer's voice, the second one to what
the singer does with his/her voice. That they may often occur together
does not make them synonymous. In those 26 unfortunate seconds of the
'Taksal' song, Lata's voice is unquestionably strained, even (for
about 10 seconds) harsh, but she does not go "besur" at any point in
the song, including those 26 seconds.
To my ears, most players of the nadaswaram make the instrument sound
unbearably harsh. Many of these harsh-sounding recitals, however, are
very much in 'sur'. I find TMS's voice very harsh, but his singing is
normally in 'sur'.
(With the full knowledge that this is water off a duck's back and)
warm regards,
Abhay
PSCB87
Keep it up Mr "- dn".
dn.usenet
"PSCB87" <psc...@hotmail.com> wrote :
>
> Just in case any one refers to this post in future, this
> is a forgery by dn.usenet. He is attributing a quote to
> me, that do not reflect my words.
>
would have taken at that place.
Will I have to make a pilgrimage for a dip in Dombivali Ganga to wash away
the sin of forgery?
dn.usenet
> spelling mistakes in the original message. The message has been
> re-posted above accordingly.)
Just in case any one refers to this post in future, this is a forgery
by dn.usenet. He is attributing a quote to me, that do not reflect my
words.
-------------
I attributed, admittedly facetiously, a quote to a) 'Madhukar Rajasthani',
and now b) PSCB87 is protesting that the quote was fraudulently attributed
to *him*. So PSCB87 is admitting that he and 'Madhukar Rajasthani' are one
and the same thing. Lata is a gift that keeps giving. More than 50 years
after she sang the TAKSAAL song, she helped PSCB87 gather courage and admit
that he is the same person as ''Madhukar Rajasthani'. Thank you, Lata-ji.
Wonderful job, indeed.
- dn
PSCB87
I don't know what you are on.
Once again you have resorted to editing and forgery.
You took on part of my post (in response to Jay's statement implying
he had sent me a Lata song) in this thread quote
"I never signed up to receive any songs from you. I have never sent
you
any e-mail." unquote
Then you proceeded to add all sort of made up stuff and that proves
what?
Not disputing your every part of your assertion is not the same as
accepting that they are true.
I am not going to dispute every stupid assertion you make. But if you
start editing my posts and put words in my mouth, I will call you on
that.
You have now comedown from your holy perch and engaged in not just
pooh poohing others (which you do so well), but now you are resorting
to making up words and attributing them to me.
Keep it up. Shows who the real dn.usenet is.
Jay
Even if you have not recd it as you claim now, but you must have
LISTENED to the diva's bungling for sheer curiosity
29/2
Naqab utar gaya hai...you could even resort to new ways of posting .
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> The MD is the SUPREME ARCHITECT of any song composed by him/her. -
> this is precisely what I had told Anil Biswas during my meeting with
> him.
Wow! That is some feat! Jay, if you are indeed so erudite as to *tell*
AB something like this, we poor mortals have no choice but to sit in
silence and watch.
C
Jay
Oh no - nothing of that sort. I too is a mortal like every other human
being. I have 'nil' qualifications - but a keen ear for music from my
school-going days and that type of MUSIC were the creations of
PAPANASAM SIVAN - the highest form of Carnatic music that keeps
ringing in my ears continuously.
Trust me, I know nothing of 'raagas' even now. The LOVE is immense and
keeps surging now-n-then. About Raagas, I consult a Bangalore-based
musicologist of repute. I send her the songs by email and request her
to listen to them intently and enlighten me accordingly in detail
about musical sounds, harmony, pitch scale( low-high),,etc
Did you observe the 'passion' of eagerness to seek more-n-more info
and get enlightened from the right source
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Over2u
28/2
Archisman Mozumder
>
> "karkashya" and "besur" are completely different attributes: the first
> one relates to the sound of the singer's voice, the second one to what
> the singer does with his/her voice. That they may often occur together
> does not make them synonymous. In those 26 unfortunate seconds of the
> 'Taksal' song, Lata's voice is unquestionably strained, even (for
> about 10 seconds) harsh, but she does not go "besur" at any point in
> the song, including those 26 seconds.
>
> To my ears, most players of the nadaswaram make the instrument sound
> unbearably harsh. Many of these harsh-sounding recitals, however, are
> very much in 'sur'. I find TMS's voice very harsh, but his singing is
> normally in 'sur'.
>
> (With the full knowledge that this is water off a duck's back and)
> warm regards,
> Abhay
Dear Abhay-ji. I'm in agreement with your general comments in this
post. Thanks for your views.
My musicologist idol, Kumarprasad Mukherjee used to tell me about
Rajabhaiya Poochwaale's rasping voice that was not even an iota of
deterrent for a stunning Hameer that he had once sung ('chameli phuli
champa' in Tilwada - laya).
I have personally heard some great live recordings of Latafat Hussain
Khan & K G Ginde that are wonderfully sureela despite the somewhat
coarse voice.
Regards.
dn.usenet
"Jay" wrote :
>
> Did you observe the 'passion' of eagerness to get
> enlightened from the right source
>
Sanjeev is a great right source, but there is no observable passion in you
of accepting his enlightening advice of encasing your posts in a pipe,
(en)light it, and smoke it.
So far, it has been shown that the first example produced by BCSP to show
departure from sur by Lata does not show any besura singing to Abhay
Phadnis. A few months ago, BCSP's attempts to show a Tamil MD's supremacy (G
Ramanathan?) showed that he stole several tunes from Naushad. Having good
taste in music, passion for it, access to rare songs bought in chor-bazaar,
several listening sessions in Dadar and Dombivali (graced by the presence of
Gopal Sharma, Deepak Sabnis and others) have not resulted in formation in
Jayaraman's mindset of any ability to discuss music properly.
- dn
Jay
Jay
Sanjeev is a youngster. He may be qualified technically, but he has
no experience of the real stuff of film music., bcoz he is more into
the performing art . He repertoire range does not go earlier than 1950
barring some notable ones. He may have read a lot of books...but thats
altogether a different side..similarly to yours.
I provide regular feeds into respective IBs almost daily, with
something 'afresh' in cine/non-cine music to the curious ears. Whether
you like it or not is not the point of issue..the issue is : I DO IT
( the present tense always)' .YESTERDAY is over; TOMORROW is
uncertain.
Whatever I provide as feed is enlightening . If I had not posted
TAKSAL involving my first pointer on LM, not a single person on this
forum would have known anything to confirm and accept reality.
Take it or ignore it - its your wish
Thats defined as a relentless +ve attitude, ready to accept every sort
of criticism gracefully.
Naniji:
When I mention Papanasam Sivan any time, automatically, GR comes into
the picture and vice versa.
28/2
PSCB87
I don't consider you an authority on sur or besur and have no desire
to verify your claims. It is you who probably sent the song to MR and
asked me a question to figure out if dn.usenet claim that the two are
one and same is correct. Clever. Actually, the more I think about it,
it looks more and more that dn.usenet has created the alias Madhukar
Rajasthani and is using it to create some entertainment for himself.
dn.usenet
>
> If I had not posted TAKSAL involving my first
> pointer on LM, not a single person on this forum
> would have known anything to confirm and
> accept reality.
>
So you are now accepting the confirmation that Lata is sureeli in Taksaal,
and now you merely want to be thanked for providing the song? Your hunger to
be appreciated is just cheap and the method you follow to make it happen is
counterproductive. Songs in Taksaal do not belong to the rare category.
- dn
"Jay" <sjh...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:804b5fa8-de68-44dd...@o21g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
dn.usenet
"PSCB87" <psc...@hotmail.com> wrote :
>
> Actually, the more I think about it, it looks more
> and more that dn.usenet has created the alias Madhukar
>
This is a fun game. I have also suspected that Jayaraman has created the
alias 'Deepak Sabnis' to create some entertainment, and kept writing about
DS visit to Dombivali. Which sane person would want to visit Dombivali when
Dombivali keeps coming to our homes via rmim to create turmoil?
As for the alias 'PSCB87', it could be anybody's, ranging from SJ himself,
DN, DSjee, Profjee, Sanjeevjee, Latajee, Shailendra or (the 'real') Madhukar
Rajasthani.
Jay
Let us unprejudicedly examine this issue.
It is a 100& fact since very long, that LM's admirers / fans "will
never , never accept her weaker points of rendition"
==================================================================================
Bcoz these admirers have NEVER EVER introspected their individual
unprejudiced findings / conclusions on the topic for 'more
possibilities' that could exist... but beyond their comprehensions.
Such 'more possibilities" require / demand extensive RESEARCH with
sincere mind.
They have NO TIME to indulge in such probes...and as a result..slam
the door to fresh reasonings. They have only one resoning: She is the
BEST - she HAS NEVER SUNG 'out of tune or screeechy' .
My job was to only provide an AURAL EXAMPLE of her rendition during a
certain portion of the TAKSAL bhajan, Until the time of feding the
clip into the respective IBs, NOT A SINGLE RMIMER could ever guess the
same.
Many rmimers have heard /listened to the song even before. But they
never have had heard the FLOP SIDE of the 2-part song where she sounds
'screechy' (strained or misfired) or in other words : BESURA which
means 'not in harmony' from the listening point of view.
1/3
Jay
Use your experience as a senior rmimer or consult your 'moun'
colleague.
I hv only two IDs; sjhhhtm & one for chat; jaythrilz
===================================
===nothing more===
1/3
naniwadekar
BCSPji: Among rmim-ers who have breathed Dombivali's lovely air, I am
sure you are the one who is least likely to take a false identity
because you believe in speaking your own mind under your own name.
Keep it up. I was just joking that you have taken up an extra
identity.
As for the TAKSAAL song, the discussion is over. You haven't told
anybody anything that was not already known. Abhay and Sanjeev have
already addressed that part. Lesser singers like Usha Mangeshkar and
Suman Kalyanpur don't lose their sureelapan quite in the way you
imply, let alone Lata. You have blown the chance to show her at a
disadvantage, and you have also, in the past, blown chances to point
out where she is at her best. I think there is much to commend in your
taste, your collection is good, you are occasionally quite good at
figuring out voices of obscure singers and occasionally quite terrible
at it. Your passion for music is undeniable. But you are a novice when
discussing music on technical lines, aesthetic lines and just simple
logical lines.
- dn
Parry
> On Feb 28, 9:19 am, PSCB87 <psc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 27, 3:44 pm, Jay <sjhh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 27, 11:34 pm, Sreenivas Paruchuri <sre...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> > > > Anyway, every time I read your posting I am reminded of this cATu verse
> > > > in Sanskrit:
>
> > > > ghaTaM bhittvA paTaM chittvA kuryAd vA gArdhabha-svanaM
> > > > yena kenâpyupAyena prasiddhaH puruSo bhava
>
> > > > Go and figure out the meaning!
>
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Sreenivas
>
> > > When I bring in VAKR into the picture, why do u start your Sanskrit
> > > hymns?
>
> > > I am not used to Sanskrit..zero. You may be an authority..whatever.
> > > Come down on a fair playing field and lets keep it in English.
> > > Whatever you want to say, put it in English.
>
> > Happy to help dear Jay. Roughly translated, it means -
No Karkashya means screetchy & Besura mean with "Wrong surs". It has
something to do with "Sur"...Basics of Classical singing or "Plain"
Singing!
Thats why Pandits say Lata was never "Besur".
One can find fault with her voice, but cant find fault in her
singing Period
Parry
> > Break Pots, Tear your clothes, Make noise like a Donkey
> > Do what ever it takes to become famous...
>
> > 28/2
>
> Let the Sanskrit pundit say it in his own words !
>
> &
>
> PSCB87 must surely have been shocked to listen to the diva's
> "karkashya awaz" highlited into his IB !!
>
> 'Karkashya' or 'beysur' - the meaning is the same more or less.
>
> 28/2
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Oh no - nothing of that sort. I too is a mortal like every other human
> being. I have 'nil' qualifications
This kind of false humility is getting you nowhere, Jay. Your stance
has always been combative on this forum and, well, you know the
routine. I am just wasting my breath, I suppose
> PAPANASAM SIVAN - the highest form of Carnatic music that keeps
> ringing in my ears continuously.
I am shocked that a music-lover with such eclectic tastes dares to
hold something or someone supreme with no room for challenge. Can you
in your right mind say Papanasam Sivan is superior to Dikshitar or
Thyagaraja? On what basis?
> Trust me, I know nothing of 'raagas' even now.
I trust you - on this one :)
C
Jay
You may be well read in classical unlike me, who is nil.
But how can I tell things that I do not know. Papanasam Sivan's works
are well known and heard often and revered very much by decade
generations post-1931.Comparitively, the other two were saints / peers
of Carnatic music as toild to us and read and accepted as well from
forefathers..
Don't you accept and revere and abide by what your school teacher has
taught you in your school-going days ?
The seeds of knowledge are sown at that time, na?
2/3
Chetan Vinchhi
How then did you call PS' works as the *highest* form? Likewise, you
rely on an anonymous resource for simple things like high/low sur etc.
Are you simply parroting what someone else tells you? Are you using
such second-hand knowledge to shout from rooftops about Lata's
sureelaa-pan or the lack thereof? Shame on you!
> Don't you accept and revere and abide by what your school teacher has
> taught you in your school-going days ?
Actually, no. I used to constantly get into arguments with my school
teachers. Sometimes I even won :)
> The seeds of knowledge are sown at that time, na?
Actually, no. Knowledge and learning are a continuous process which
continues well after you have left school.
C
Jay
Do u take pride on that - you used to retort back at the teacher?
If thats so , no wonder..such characters do exist in this world
displaying colorful characteristics this way or that. So, CV:, thats
what is LIFE all about. Take it or leave it. Don't lose your cool.
The issue of LM is about the screechiness in her lines; Meera pukare
girdhar gopala.....
Do you accept its presence in her rendition of those lines ? Yes or
NO
===================================================
2/3
dn.usenet
"Jay" wrote :
>
> The issue of LM is about the screechiness in her
> lines; Meera pukare girdhar gopala.....
>
Give up the ghost, BCSP. The issue (look at the title of the thread) was
whether Lata went besur in the song. She did not. Try to learn from your
anonymous source the difference between strained voice and besur voice.
Jay
You , Naniji , define the term 'strained voice' as you perceive and
tell it in the forum. Pls do not email me as you are doing now in the
light of the context through your pseudo IDs.
Whatever you wish to say, put it down on the forum page, please.
3/3
naniwadekar
>
> You , Naniji , define the term 'strained voice' as you perceive and
> tell it in the forum. Pls do not email me as you are doing now in the
> light of the context through your pseudo IDs.
>
> Whatever you wish to say, put it down on the forum page, please.
>
Jayaramanjee: stop being stupid if you can help it. It is you who sent
me an unsolicited email in the first place, and sent me the
Ratnaprabha song which is allegedly superior to all Lata songs and
'KOs them all'. I acknowledged the song's receipt on the forum
yesterday, and I had also sent you only one email to do the same (ack
its receipt). I have said on the forum whatever I wanted to say about
you comparing Ratnaprabha with Lata; namely, that you need therapy
because your brain is messed up. I have not engaged in any other email
conversation with you over last several months, including not even
acknowledging your invitation to join your mailing list. Thanks for
that offer, but no thanks as well.
You also cc-ed the song to that 'PSCB' pseudo-ID fellow, whoever he
may be, whether he is from Indore or Lahore or Kannore. So you are
sending songs to somebody ('PSCB') who has never done any musical
discussion on rmim. It shows what an ass you are.
- dn
PSCB87
aiyyo amma. For someone who was complaining that people are unfair to
Jayaraman compared to Profji, clearly he is now beginning to irritate
"-dn".
Jayramanji - why don't you disclose once and for all who did you send
the music to. Please disclose the actual id to which you sent it. We
already know that you and "-dn" think that there are 3 ids that are
all one person. You did not send it to this id. So it has to be one of
the other two. Be honest (like you ask others to be).
naniwadekar
>
> Jayramanji - why don't you disclose once and for all who did you send
> the music to. Please disclose the actual id to which you sent it. We
> already know that you and "-dn" think that there are 3 ids that are
> all one person. You did not send it to this id. So it has to be one of
> the other two. Be honest (like you ask others to be).
>
The disclosure does not have to come from Jayaraman. I recd the email
sent by him with the Ratnaprabha solo attached, and can see a few
other names on the 'to' list. One of the names is pscb87 @
hotmail.com .
- dn
PSCB87
Thank you for that. I went back and looked at my junk folder (every
mail goes there unless I mark sender as safe). Yes, there is a message
there from Jay with 2 songs not the one he claimed originally (in
which he says Lata is karkash). Also look at time stamps of the posts
where he makes the claim and the time stamp on the e-mail where he
sent these two songs. His post quote
PSCB87 must surely have been shocked to listen to the diva's
"karkashya awaz" highlited into his IB !!
'Karkashya' or 'beysur' - the meaning is the same more or less.
28/2
unquote
is stamped 28/2/11 at 10.06 am
The time stamp on his e-mail is 28/2/11 at 7.16 pm
How did this minor detail miss your eyes?
I am really curious to know which id did Jay send the LM song that he
sent to people on 22/2/11.
Let us hear from the master himself. He knows what he sent to which id
when.
PSCB87
When Jayji asked his question, he seems to be talking about song from
Taksaal. Still don't have it in my inbox or junk folder.
Jay
I did send the clip to yr ID since you had remarked earlier that you
had never subscribed !
OK- accepted.
But, in the general interest of CINE MUSIC awareness, if I have sent
the same to you or anyone...whether the person concerned is 180
degrees out of phase with me or my ways or views...I have still and
always will treat them as human beings...irrespective of stature or
knowledge.
They are FREE to speak out their mind in any manner
whatsoever...everything shall / will be accepted 'gracefully' without
any illwill or vindictiveness in any manner.....primarily bcoz of the
one word: LOVE in any form.
So then, Mr Nani & co: the issue is settled of my sending the clips
from time2time - thus there shouldn't be any more apprehensions about
this.
You can call me, dub me, by any names... it doesn't affect me at all
3/3
Chetan Vinchhi
>
> Do u take pride on that - you used to retort back at the teacher?
Arguing is different from retorting. I do not necessarily take pride
in that, but my teachers do.
> If thats so , no wonder..such characters do exist in this world
> displaying colorful characteristics this way or that. So, CV:, thats
> what is LIFE all about. Take it or leave it. Don't lose your cool.
eh? I don't understand what you are saying. But I am sure it has no
relevance whatsoever to the current discussion.
> The issue of LM is about the screechiness in her lines; Meera pukare
> girdhar gopala.....
Not screechiness, but besuraapan. But I doubt you can tell them apart
if they slapped you in the face many times over, based on your own
candid admission.
C
PSCB87
>
> I did send the clip to yr ID since you had remarked earlier that you
> had never subscribed !
>
> OK- accepted.
>
Thank you for confirming. The rest of the discussion is between you
and "-dn".
premc...@gmail.com
> On Feb 25, 6:05 pm, Srinivas Ganti <sga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 25, 7:09 pm, Deepak <deepak_sab...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 25, 3:59 pm, "Afzal A. Khan" <me_af...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > > > I don't know if Shri Deepak Sabnis has access to that special
> > > > software originally used for the "Durgesh Nandini" song. If not,
> > > > my suggestion will mean an imposition on Shri Krishnan.
>
> > > I was at Vish's home and the software was on his computer. I have forgotten what
> > > software he used, but there are many packages one can experiment with.
>
> > Sound Forge ? Adobe Audition ?
>
> I think it was Adobe Audition. You will have to ask Vish.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi friends,
I would like to know the name of the software that reduced the pitch
by half a note. It was good.
I use "Digital Orchestra Pro" to change the pitch of songs to my pitch
when I am learning a song.
Reducing the speed is not a good way for me, because the tempo is
important to maintain.
Si Vish Bhai if you are reading, please tell us the name of you
Software.
Thanks
Prem Joshi
Chetan Vinchhi
wrote:
>
> I would like to know the name of the software that reduced the pitch
> by half a note. It was good.
I have used CoolEdit (which later became Adobe Audition) for this.
SoundForge also has this capability and, apparently, so does Audacity.
The first 2 are licensed SWs, the last one is free. I am not sure if
GoldWave has this feature.
HTH
C
AR
I heard the Taksaal song carefully on youtube, and nowhere do I find
Lata to be screechy or strained let alone besuraa. That includes the
lines "meera pukaare giridhara...".