Sajjad: What is great about him?
Birbal
music directors", "greatest music director", "the most original music
director" etc.
I was wondering if anyone would share their views on why this is so?
With so few movies and songs, and one might argue, not enough body of
work, why is he accorded such a high status?
Ritu
You know what.. I agree! I too haven't been able to fathom the hype
over him. He is just one of those many music directors who have just
enough good songs to count on the finger tips.
But on second thoughts it just might be taste. People might say the
same about Jaidev but I do rate him very high as a music director.
Sajjad does not hold the same status for me.
It would be interesting to hear what people have to say. I do know
that Sajjad is very popular on RMIM. One reason could be complexity in
his tunes. But then for me that complexity does not transfer to
sweetness in most songs though he does have some outright winners
likes 'Dil mein sama gaye sajan', 'Darshan pyaasi aayi daasi' and a
few others.
Regards,
Ritu
Prithviraj Dasgupta
in message news:<8777cccd.0404...@posting.google.com>...
Instead of hearing what others have to say, why don't
you start off by finding out a bit more about him and
his work.
A free of cost starting point for you would be RMIM
archives. You can search for "Sajjad Hussain" on google RMIM
search. His filmography, articles on his work and life have
been already discussed.
If you are interested to learn more about his work,
the best way to check it out is hearing it. (This
would actually be my starting point). Some recommendations
from me for albums with Sajjad's work are:
1)Lahore(MD Shyam Sunder) - Saiyan: HMV sdtrk album CD
2)Arzoo(MD AnilB) - Sangdil: HMV sdtrk album CD
3)Rustom Sohrab - You can probably get a video of this
movie, the sdtrk used to be available on a tape from
indianscreen.
4)All Time Greats: Shyam Sunder + Sajjad Hussain: HMV CD.
(This used to be available as a 2 pack tape some years
ago. The tapes have some more songs than the CD).
If you are still enthusiastic to continue to delve, there
is a chapter on Sajjad in Dr. Ashraf Aziz's book titled
"Light of the Universe: Essays on Hindustani Film Music".
I was not very impressed after reading this article
but, well, it's there. I have never "gone after" Sajjad's
songs, and I only have the ones in the albums above.
I am sure you can find more if you are serious to investigate.
Now, in case you have already taken all these steps and
are familiar with his work, but still say things like
(quote from Ritu's post):
> I too haven't been able to fathom the hype
> over him. He is just one of those many music directors who have just
> enough good songs to count on the finger tips.
...then all I can say is music appreciation is a personal
experience. Just as Kalra-ji says 'each to his own'.
-Prithviraj
Birbal
> you start off by finding out a bit more about him and
> his work.
Whats wrong in trying to find out what others think? Isn't that the
point of a newsgroup?
> << Snipped>>
> > Now, in case you have already taken all these steps and
> are familiar with his work, but still say things like
I have already taken all these steps and more. I have gone after his
songs and have listened to his songs from
1857
Rukhsana
Hulchal (2 songs)
Khel
Magroor (although I am not sure if this is a Sajjad movie).
I have also listened to his solo mendolin. Its awsome!
The purpose of my post is not to say that he is not great... I like
his music a great deal... but would be interested in hearing what
others have to say.
> (quote from Ritu's post):
> > I too haven't been able to fathom the hype
> > over him. He is just one of those many music directors who have just
> > enough good songs to count on the finger tips.
>
> ...then all I can say is music appreciation is a personal
> experience. Just as Kalra-ji says 'each to his own'.
*PRECISELY*. I believe in this too! That is exactly why I am surprised
at the almost deification of Sajjad.
If it is really that subjective, why would so many people call him
*The Greatest*? Many of them great MDs themselves. Does this not
appear to you as a deviation from the standard subjective pattern? Is
it simply because they all happen to like him? If yes why dont they
say that about Anilda for example? What is so special about Sajjad?
Prithviraj Dasgupta
> > Instead of hearing what others have to say, why don't
> > you start off by finding out a bit more about him and
> > his work.
>
> Whats wrong in trying to find out what others think? Isn't that the
> point of a newsgroup?
>
Nothing is wrong and yes that is the point. I was just
making sure that you and Ritu, the other poster had
heard enough of Sajjad's work before participating in
discussion.
> > << Snipped>>
> > > Now, in case you have already taken all these steps and
> > are familiar with his work, but still say things like
>
> I have already taken all these steps and more. I have gone after his
> songs and have listened to his songs from
> 1857
> Rukhsana
> Hulchal (2 songs)
> Khel
> Magroor (although I am not sure if this is a Sajjad movie).
Magroor (1950) had two MDs - Sajjad and Bulo C Rani.
FWIW, I think some of the songs you mention are in the
All time greats CD I mentioned.
> I have also listened to his solo mendolin. Its awsome!
>
> The purpose of my post is not to say that he is not great... I like
> his music a great deal... but would be interested in hearing what
> others have to say.
>
> > (quote from Ritu's post):
> > > I too haven't been able to fathom the hype
> > > over him. He is just one of those many music directors who have just
> > > enough good songs to count on the finger tips.
> >
> > ...then all I can say is music appreciation is a personal
> > experience. Just as Kalra-ji says 'each to his own'.
>
> *PRECISELY*. I believe in this too! That is exactly why I am surprised
> at the almost deification of Sajjad.
>
> If it is really that subjective, why would so many people call him
> *The Greatest*? Many of them great MDs themselves. Does this not
> appear to you as a deviation from the standard subjective pattern? Is
> it simply because they all happen to like him? If yes why dont they
> say that about Anilda for example? What is so special about Sajjad?
I dont't know why others glorify him. I am attracted
to his music because it is not only melodious but
it has an element of suprise in it - a particular
note in the song when you expect something else.
This makes most of his songs very difficult to sing/hum
as well because the notes don't follow the normal
progression that (my) ears are used to.
[A similar thing can also be said about some SalilC songs.]
Since I mentioned SalilC, I think one department where
I would give Salil more preference is in the interlude
section. I cannot recollect any Sajjad's songs where
one hums the interlude before starting the song (happens
for me for some SalilC songs).
Here is another persons opinion on Sajjad:
In the book by Dr. Aziz that I mentioned on this thread
(which I said I was not very fond of) he praises Sajjad
a great deal - lots of similies and metaphors, comparing
his music to eddy currents in water, vortex drawing
in water, etc. etc. Then he says (this is pretty close
but not verbatim) "Compared to Sajjad, the leading MDs of
his times like SJ and SDB would appear to be playing with
numbers". I did not quite understand what the phrase
"playing with numbers" meant. Probably, he meant Sajjad's
work was comparable to complex equations while other
MD-s work was similar to counting numbers. In other
words, according to Dr. Aziz, Sajjad was an expert
while his contemporaries who were commercially successful
were infantile amateurs.
-Prithviraj
PS: It is somewhat exagerrated comments like the last one (in the book
I mentioned above) that made me stop reading the book halfway. In
one place he mentions that the downfall of all leading
MD-s (he mentions names) in the late 60s thru the 70s and
of HFM in general, was because of, guess what...the demise of
Shailendra.
Afzal A. Khan
Prithviraj Dasgupta wrote:
> Then he says (this is pretty close
> but not verbatim) "Compared to Sajjad, the leading MDs of
> his times like SJ and SDB would appear to be playing with
> numbers". I did not quite understand what the phrase
> "playing with numbers" meant. Probably, he meant Sajjad's
> work was comparable to complex equations while other
> MD-s work was similar to counting numbers. In other
> words, according to Dr. Aziz, Sajjad was an expert
> while his contemporaries who were commercially successful
> were infantile amateurs.
>
> -Prithviraj
FWIW, I think what Dr. Aziz meant was simply this :
While others were busy trying to get as many assignments
as possible, Sajjad concentrated on quality.
Afzal
Ket...@att.net
Dasgupta says...
>Here is another persons opinion on Sajjad:
>In the book by Dr. Aziz that I mentioned on this thread
>(which I said I was not very fond of) he praises Sajjad
>a great deal - lots of similies and metaphors, comparing
>his music to eddy currents in water, vortex drawing
>in water, etc. etc. Then he says (this is pretty close
>but not verbatim) "Compared to Sajjad, the leading MDs of
>his times like SJ and SDB would appear to be playing with
>numbers". I did not quite understand what the phrase
>"playing with numbers" meant. Probably, he meant Sajjad's
>work was comparable to complex equations while other
>MD-s work was similar to counting numbers. In other
>words, according to Dr. Aziz, Sajjad was an expert
>while his contemporaries who were commercially successful
>were infantile amateurs.
I think he means S-J and SDB were "painting with numbers" whilst Sajjad was a
true blue artist.
>
>-Prithviraj
>
>PS: It is somewhat exagerrated comments like the last one (in the book
>I mentioned above) that made me stop reading the book halfway. In
>one place he mentions that the downfall of all leading
>MD-s (he mentions names) in the late 60s thru the 70s and
>of HFM in general, was because of, guess what...the demise of
>Shailendra.
Could you list the MD's he mentions whose career took a fall
Ketan
Kanti Shah
Lata Mangeshkar has sung only 14 songs for Sajjad Hussain.In a number of
interviews, she has singled out Sajjad's compostions.
Here is what says about "Aye dilruba" from Rustom Shorab "No list of my
favourites can be complete without this song. Sajjad Husain saab insisted
that I don't stress any sur in the composition. He wanted every note to be
relaxed and unaccentuated. I agree when you say my voice sounds completely
different in this song. As usual I was very scared during the recording.
Like his songs, Sajjad saab was unique."
Kanti Shah
Prithviraj Dasgupta
> In article <fc0bc0a7.04040...@posting.google.com>, Prithviraj
> Dasgupta says...
>
> >Here is another persons opinion on Sajjad:
> >In the book by Dr. Aziz that I mentioned on this thread
> >(which I said I was not very fond of) he praises Sajjad
> >a great deal - lots of similies and metaphors, comparing
> >his music to eddy currents in water, vortex drawing
> >in water, etc. etc. Then he says (this is pretty close
> >but not verbatim) "Compared to Sajjad, the leading MDs of
> >his times like SJ and SDB would appear to be playing with
> >numbers". I did not quite understand what the phrase
> >"playing with numbers" meant. Probably, he meant Sajjad's
> >work was comparable to complex equations while other
> >MD-s work was similar to counting numbers. In other
> >words, according to Dr. Aziz, Sajjad was an expert
> >while his contemporaries who were commercially successful
> >were infantile amateurs.
>
> I think he means S-J and SDB were "painting with numbers" whilst Sajjad was a
> true blue artist.
>
Here is the exact quote from the Dr. Aziz's book
(page 32, last para):
"It appears that Sajjad made his songs using an arcane
form of musical cryptography. So well does he cover
his footprints that other composers cannot...[these
dots are there in the text] get those privileged vantage
points where he has been. Madan Mohan rued his attempt
(tujhe kya sunaaon in Annkhri Dao) to copy a Sajjad
tune (ye hawa ye raat in Sangdil). Madan was able
to duplicate everything except Sajjad's excellence.
Ordinary goldsmiths work with their submissive
metals. Sajjad gave exquisite form to steel. So
exquisite are Sajjad's songs that even 'Daddy' Burman
(easily amongst our more illustrious, though
considerably over-rated composers) appeared to
have done his musical painting using numbers."
I'm sorry that I had slightly misquoted earlier saying
that SJ was also involved in this comment of Dr. Aziz.
He refers only to SDB here. I had also got a few
words wrong like painting -> playing, as I was writing
from memory then.
> >PS: It is somewhat exagerrated comments like the last one (in the book
> >I mentioned above) that made me stop reading the book halfway. In
> >one place he mentions that the downfall of all leading
> >MD-s (he mentions names) in the late 60s thru the 70s and
> >of HFM in general, was because of, guess what...the demise of
> >Shailendra.
>
> Could you list the MD's he mentions whose career took a fall
From page 38 of Dr Aziz's book:
"Shortly after Shailendra's voluntary exit a procession
of his colleagues Jaikishan, Mukesh, S D Burman, C Ramchandra
and Nargis followed him involuntarily into 'the void';
Ramchandra's career had died long before he breathed
his last; the Shankar-Jaikishan team lay mortally
wounded after Shailendra's death. Raj Kapoor parted
ways with SJ upon completion of Mera Naam Joker,
SDB too was at the tail end of his brilliant career
- the brief ecstatic finale(Guide) was a parting
gift from Shailendra to the ageing maestro; his subsequent
score of Sagina scarcely contained a hummable tune.
Similarly, after the successes of Madhumati and Parakh
Salil Chowdhury had entered an undistinguished professional
phase from which he never recovered in an authoratative
way. One day in the mid-60s Roshan's cardiac tabalchi
quit on him permanently; Chitragupt's career was
spiralling downward. The on and off-screen romance of
Raj Kapoor and Nargis did not survive the 50s.
It appears that the 'fallout' of Shailendra's collision
with death touched almost all his colleagues and laid
them to waste. Mortality multiplied!
Tamheed-i-kharabi ki, takmeel kharabi hai.
-Seemab."
-Prithviraj
V S Rawat
>>Here is another persons opinion on Sajjad:
>>In the book by Dr. Aziz that I mentioned on this thread
>>(which I said I was not very fond of) he praises Sajjad
>>a great deal - lots of similies and metaphors, comparing
>>his music to eddy currents in water, vortex drawing
>>in water, etc. etc. Then he says (this is pretty close
>>but not verbatim) "Compared to Sajjad, the leading MDs of
>>his times like SJ and SDB would appear to be playing with
>>numbers". I did not quite understand what the phrase
>>"playing with numbers" meant. Probably, he meant Sajjad's
>>work was comparable to complex equations while other
>>MD-s work was similar to counting numbers. In other
>>words, according to Dr. Aziz, Sajjad was an expert
>>while his contemporaries who were commercially successful
>>were infantile amateurs.
>
>
> I think he means S-J and SDB were "painting with numbers" whilst Sajjad was a
> true blue artist.
and what are "painting with numbers" and "true blue artist"?
-rawat
>
>
>>-Prithviraj
V S Rawat
>>
>>> Now, in case you have already taken all these steps
>>> and
>>
>> are familiar with his work, but still say things like
>
>
> I have already taken all these steps and more. I have
> gone after his songs and have listened to his songs from
> 1857 Rukhsana Hulchal (2 songs) Khel Magroor (although I
> am not sure if this is a Sajjad movie).
would you like to mention the songs you have gone through.
I have some songs of sajjad and if you are interested in
anyone of them, I can convert to low-bit mp3 and upload for
you and other interested members.
>
> I have also listened to his solo mendolin. Its awsome!
>
> The purpose of my post is not to say that he is not
> great... I like his music a great deal... but would be
> interested in hearing what others have to say.
Maybe, he used some innovations which were pathbreaking for
his time, but these have become so popular and copied by
others that we do not know that he was the inventor of these.
>> (quote from Ritu's post):
>>
>>> I too haven't been able to fathom the hype over him.
>>> He is just one of those many music directors who have
>>> just enough good songs to count on the finger tips.
WHat is the quoram no. of songs that one has to compose/
write/ sing/ shoot/ get picturised on/ ... before he or she
qualifies for nominations among greats?
>> ...then all I can say is music appreciation is a
>> personal experience. Just as Kalra-ji says 'each to his
>> own'.
When it is general concept that Sajjad, Ghulam Haider, etc
were great, it reaches beyond "each his own."
Noorjehan and Suraiya are two which are put at par (or
sometimes better) than lata though either of them has only
a handful of songs compared to Lata's thousands.
> *PRECISELY*. I believe in this too! That is exactly why I
> am surprised at the almost deification of Sajjad.
>
> If it is really that subjective, why would so many people
> call him *The Greatest*? Many of them great MDs
> themselves. Does this not appear to you as a deviation
> from the standard subjective pattern? Is it simply
> because they all happen to like him? If yes why dont they
> say that about Anilda for example? What is so special
> about Sajjad?
In some cases, it could be based on how many coins their
songs/ films could mint at the box office. Naushad wins in
such comparisions hands down.
No ideas of Jubilees of Sajjad's. Anyone?
-Rawat
V S Rawat
> I dont't know why others glorify him. I am attracted to
> his music because it is not only melodious but it has an
> element of suprise in it - a particular note in the song
> when you expect something else. This makes most of his
> songs very difficult to sing/hum as well because the
> notes don't follow the normal progression that (my) ears
> are used to.
wow! the same thing shall be 100% applicable on ARR.
Beautifully put.
> [A similar thing can also be said about some SalilC
> songs.]
I think there is some "maximum no. of "don't follow the
normal progression" thing in a song. Whoever remains within
that limit (sajjad, SalilC, etc., as you mention) manage to
keep the audience glued by rest of the song while these
"different notes" grow on the listeners.
But, ARR could be crossing the safe limit, and giving too
many "different notes" in a single song, thus might be
putting off people who are not used to digest too much
differences.
> Here is another persons opinion on Sajjad: In the book by
> Dr. Aziz that I mentioned on this thread (which I said I
> was not very fond of) he praises Sajjad a great deal -
> lots of similies and metaphors, comparing his music to
> eddy currents in water, vortex drawing in water, etc.
> etc.
Is any software available which can create visualisation
(say, in winamp, windows media, jet audio etc) based on the
notes of a song?
btw, eddy current is known in physics as a different concept
than what the above author might be refering to. Eddy
current is some small closed circuit current in a metal
which is just a loss of power as it does not help in
electron flow.
I think what the author is refering to is the pattern you
see when you throw a stone in water and those waves spread.
That is not eddy pattern. By definition, eddy is possible
only in metals where the material can't move to "temper"
itself. All those cyclones etc are examples of environment
tempering the eddy patterns.
> Then he says (this is pretty close but not verbatim)
> "Compared to Sajjad, the leading MDs of his times like SJ
> and SDB would appear to be playing with numbers". I did
> not quite understand what the phrase "playing with
> numbers" meant.
I have heard that in reference to ARR. I wonder whether the
author meant the same thing here. In summary, it roughly
means that the composer first notes down a different pattern
and then plays it instead of developing it intuitively on
instruments.
It is like saying that if some song of SDB sounds good with
sa-re-"sa-sa-ga"-ma pattern, he first decides to try
sa-re-"sa-ga-ga"-ma pattern and develops a tune based on
that. You can replace different frequencies and durations of
beat patterns in the above in place of sa ga etc.
If George Micheal's father figure number has a pattern "one
heavy-beat for 50 miliseconds followed by two low-beats for
20 miliseconds", someone first decides to try "two heavy
beats for 30 ms followed by one low-beat for 20 ms". so on.
Does anyone get this explanation? Is it possible?
-Rawat
Ashok
>
>in water, etc. etc. Then he says (this is pretty close
>but not verbatim) "Compared to Sajjad, the leading MDs of
>his times like SJ and SDB would appear to be playing with
>numbers". I did not quite understand what the phrase
>"playing with numbers" meant. Probably, he meant Sajjad's
>work was comparable to complex equations while other
>MD-s work was similar to counting numbers. In other
>words, according to Dr. Aziz, Sajjad was an expert
>while his contemporaries who were commercially successful
>were infantile amateurs.
>
>-Prithviraj
By "playing with numbers" Dr Aziz perhaps means formulaic
compositions with no creativity. A somewhat similar use
of the phrase is made in an article on the modernist
Western composer Cage:
<<
Cage was playing with numbers as much as with sounds. His
skill as a composer in such pieces was reliant on his
ability to create suitable structures in which the sounds
could take place. It was to this form of Constructivism
that he eventually and comprehensively turned after his
emotional and artistic crisis. Whereas, as we have seen,
there had always been some kind of number game under-pinning
his formal systems, within those systems he had left room
for invention, musical taste and personal expression.
>>
Ashok
Tadatmya Vaishnav
"V S Rawat" <vsr...@datainfosys.net> wrote in message
news:4074C4B4...@datainfosys.net...
> When it is general concept that Sajjad, Ghulam Haider, etc
> were great, it reaches beyond "each his own."
>
> Noorjehan and Suraiya are two which are put at par (or
> sometimes better) than lata though either of them has only
> a handful of songs compared to Lata's thousands.
This is news to me. Suraiya put on par with or deemed better than Lata?
From whom have you heard this? Also, Noorjehan doesn't just have a 'handful
of songs'. She has a big repertoire in Pakistani films. You seem to be
considering only her pre-Partition songs.
> -Rawat
>
Regards,
Tadatmya.
naniwadekar
>
> Here is the exact quote from the Dr. Aziz's book
> (page 32, last para):
> "It appears that Sajjad made his songs using an arcane
> form of musical cryptography. So well does he cover
> his footprints that other composers cannot...
>
This endorsement of Sajjad is just hagiographic nonsense.
> Madan was able
> to duplicate everything except Sajjad's excellence.
>
More nonsense.
Sajjad was a gifted composer but there were quite a few
better than him. People who put Sajjad above Boral or
Kamal-da or Anil-da or Khemchand or Roshan make
about as much sense as Mr Rawat when he puts Noor
Jehan and Suraiya on par with Lata.
- dn
Ket...@att.net
Dasgupta says...
>Here is the exact quote from the Dr. Aziz's book
>(page 32, last para):
>exquisite are Sajjad's songs that even 'Daddy' Burman
>(easily amongst our more illustrious, though
>considerably over-rated composers) appeared to
>have done his musical painting using numbers."
He sure did: Number 1: Surhid Kar, Num2: N.Datta, Num3: Jaidev, Num4: RDB, Num5:
Meera Dev and so on. :)
>> Could you list the MD's he mentions whose career took a fall
>
>From page 38 of Dr Aziz's book:
>
>"Shortly after Shailendra's voluntary exit a procession
>of his colleagues Jaikishan, Mukesh, S D Burman, C Ramchandra
>and Nargis followed him involuntarily into 'the void';
>Ramchandra's career had died long before he breathed
>his last; the Shankar-Jaikishan team lay mortally
>wounded after Shailendra's death. Raj Kapoor parted
>ways with SJ upon completion of Mera Naam Joker,
>SDB too was at the tail end of his brilliant career
>- the brief ecstatic finale(Guide) was a parting
>gift from Shailendra to the ageing maestro; his subsequent
>score of Sagina scarcely contained a hummable tune.
>Similarly, after the successes of Madhumati and Parakh
>Salil Chowdhury had entered an undistinguished professional
>phase from which he never recovered in an authoratative
>way. One day in the mid-60s Roshan's cardiac tabalchi
>quit on him permanently; Chitragupt's career was
>spiralling downward. The on and off-screen romance of
>Raj Kapoor and Nargis did not survive the 50s.
>
>It appears that the 'fallout' of Shailendra's collision
>with death touched almost all his colleagues and laid
>them to waste. Mortality multiplied!
Ok, I can ignore, dimiss, even allow his views on SDB vs Sajjad as his personal
opinion. But in the para above he is fooling around with facts. SDB had a long
career even after Shailendra died between Guide and Sagina which are 10 years
apart, or maybe he hasn't heard of Majrooh and Abhimaan/Jewel Thief, Neeraj and
Prem Pujari/Tere Mere Sapne/Sharmilee etc. Same for Salil and his association
with Yogesh and Gulzar. I am not aware of any significant contribution to CR's
career by Shailendra. I believe CR closeted with Rajinder Krishan. Chitragupt,
poor chap, never had much of a career to start with despite having some
outstanding music. Nargis quit acting by 1960 or so, and I don't see how
Shailendra's death in 1967 was responsible for it. Jaikishan died from
alcoholism(or so I have read). How is Shailendra's death responsible for S-J
declining? Infact even 4 years after his death S-J had 17 movies released in
1971, so popularity wise they still seemed at the top. Musically S-J had begun
to go awry even when Shailendra was alive. Maybe it affected Raj Kapoor since he
lost a fine lyricist but Mera Naam Joker failed not because of Shailendra's
passing away. As for Roshan, Shailendra was never his main lyricist even during
the 50s. Roshan has used some 53 lyricists in 54 movies, and although Shailendra
is lyricist # 2 for Roshan with 44 songs, post 1960 he used him only once for
"Soorat aur Seerat". He had no need for Shailendra. The 45th lyricist he worked
with and the one who wrote 64 songs for him was indeed a "magician".
BTW, the above statements are in no way meant to belittle Shailendra whom I
regard as absolutely fantastic when it came to lyrics. I would say only Majrooh
might beat him in versatility.
Ketan
Ritu
>
> Instead of hearing what others have to say, why don't
> you start off by finding out a bit more about him and
> his work.
Are we being a trifle presumptious here? Anyway, yes I am acquainted
with a fair amount of Sajjad's work. I have the Shyam Sundar and
Sajjad CD you mention along with the soundtrack of Sangdil, Rustom
Sohrab. His songs also make an appearance in various Lata, Talat,
Geeta compilations I have.
By and large I don't write off Sajjad. There are quite a few songs
that are nice, great, brilliant. But that ratio is not much different
from other MDs. His extremely elevated status (as exhibited in Dr
Aziz's write-up) is not (to me) justified by his limited output. Also
I don't know about the others, but there are a lot of Sajjad songs
that I have absolutely no pallatte for. I forward them each time esp.
the ones that have the typical arabic flavour.
His music surely has complexity but he also has a very strong and
distinct flavour which reduces his universal appeal. And when it comes
to complexity there are others as you (PDG) mention... Salil, Jaidev
etc. Their music has a lot more emotional appeal. What makes Salil or
Jaidev great to me is that along with a 'Mere man ke diye' or 'Banshi
keno gaaye' or 'chale jaa rahe hain' they also have 'Zulmi sang aankh
ladi', 'Peetal ki mori gagri'.
I compare Sajjad with Jaidev and Salil because they all were slightly
off-the- mainstream composers.
Ritu
Afzal A. Khan
Not only his music, but I think his own personality was
quite complex. Many such examples can be found amongst
artistic people in general and our film industry in
particular. Film producers and others found it difficult
to get along with him and his disdain for "the lesser
mortals" (in a manner of speaking) made things still more
difficult. That probably accounts for his very limited
output. But if one were to calculate the ratio of his
great compositions with reference to his total output,
it would be quite high, I believe.
I can understand if you do not like the "Arabic flavour"
in his compositions. And this may account for your
overall rating or evaluation of his musical genius.
Similarly, if someone doesn't relate too well to the
Bhatiali or overall Bengali/Assamese flavour in the music
of SDB, Anil Biswas or Salil Chowdhury, his approach
towards their contribution may also be affected.
{Clarification : This "theory" does not claim to
justify Ashok's approach to SDB's music !}
Afzal
Sreenivas Paruchuri
Incidentally I have been wanting to post a note on this list soliciting
others opinions about the above title. Can we have a discssion on this
book please!
Thanks and Regards,
Sreenivas
Prithviraj Dasgupta wrote:
> Here is another persons opinion on Sajjad:
> In the book by Dr. Aziz that I mentioned on this thread
> (which I said I was not very fond of) he praises Sajjad
> a great deal - lots of similies and metaphors, comparing
<snip>
Ritu
>
Agreed! I can remotely understand his statements about Salil and SDB
mainly because Salil depended very heavily on Shailendra for his
lyrics and for a lot of people, critically, Guide was SDB's peak. He
could be alluding to decline is his work from a critical perspective.
Again with SJ one can take his statements with a pinch of salt in the
sense 'Teesri Kasam' was one of the last critcally acclaimed scores of
SJ.
But that said and done, the good Dr is talking through his hat. The
most ridiculous example is of Nargis. How can a lyrcist make or break
a heroine's career? And what did Shailendra's demise have to do with
the break-up of the Raj Kapoor/Nargis romance !! And then CR and
Roshan too had little to do with Shailendra.
Total absence of logic !
Ritu
Ritu
> Ritu wrote:
> >
> > prith...@yahoo.com (Prithviraj Dasgupta) wrote in message news:<fc0bc0a7.0404...@posting.google.com>...
>
> quite complex. Many such examples can be found amongst
> artistic people in general and our film industry in
> particular. Film producers and others found it difficult
> to get along with him and his disdain for "the lesser
> mortals" (in a manner of speaking) made things still more
> difficult. That probably accounts for his very limited
> output. But if one were to calculate the ratio of his
> great compositions with reference to his total output,
> it would be quite high, I believe.
Couldn't we say the same about Jaidev? or Khaiyyam or any other small
output talented MD? My question is why single out only Sajjad for the
status he enjoys?
Let me answer my own question with a thought that just crossed my
mind. Maybe Sajjad is given his elevated status because his tunes are
very original. The part of 'not leaving any footprints' in Dr Aziz's
article is very true. Most other MDs leave a stamp of their source of
inspiration ... folk, classical, western whatever. Sajjad's tunes are
very distinctive and only his. What do you say?
>
> I can understand if you do not like the "Arabic flavour"
> in his compositions. And this may account for your
> overall rating or evaluation of his musical genius.
> Similarly, if someone doesn't relate too well to the
> Bhatiali or overall Bengali/Assamese flavour in the music
> of SDB, Anil Biswas or Salil Chowdhury, his approach
> towards their contribution may also be affected.
True. I do have an affinity for composers who have incorporated the
folk (esp. Bangla folk)/light classical element in their music well
SDB, Salil, Anil Biswas, Khemchand Prakash, Jaidev, Naushad etc. But I
never said I dislike everything Sajjad did. 'Dil mein sama gaye sajan'
makes it to my top 10 Talat duets. Further more I like the way RDB
incorporates the 'Arabic flavour' in 'Mehbooba', 'Yamma Yamma' and
'Dil lena khel dildaar ka'. I just find Sajjad's Arabic flavour very
monotonous.
But the point is not my liking Bhatiyali and folk and hence rating
SDB, Salil, Jaidev(no bhatiyali here!) etc. high. The point is that
SDB, Salil, Anil Biswas have a lot more to offer other than the
Bhatiyali/Bengali/assamese flavour. I might like SDB for 'Piya tune
kya kiye re' but someone else will like him for 'roop tera mastana'
and yet someone else for 'ghayal hiraniya'. The same is with Anil
Biswas or Naushad.. he has a variety of flavours to his credit. Even a
niche MD like Jaidev has a 'bansuriya man har le gayi' co-existing
with 'tumhe ho na ho' and 'mein zindagi ka saath'. Basically a wider
canvas. And I guess the folk element in their music gives them
emotional universality.
Sajjad on the other hand has a very very distinctive flavour which
restricts his universality. With that kind of limitation I was
questioning his being hailed as the 'greatest ever'.
>
> {Clarification : This "theory" does not claim to
> justify Ashok's approach to SDB's music !}
I think secretly Ashok actually loves SDB's music. He is in denial
mode :)
Cheers
Afzal A. Khan
Ritu wrote:
Let us sort out a few points first. I don't think
a vast majority of music lovers (or even RMIMers)
think of Sajjad as the greatest. They could consider
him as very good or even great, but certainly not the
Greatest. So if anyone doesn't think of him as "the
Greatest", there is no need to rationalise this
conclusion. Secondly, we can leave out the poor Dr.
Aziz out of this discussion. He was just indulging
in hyperbole of the extreme kind. And very very few
have actualy read his book. We can just ignore his
effusive outpourings. Any conclusion that "Sajjad
has been singled out as a fabulous composer (by most
people) is just not correct. Quite to the contrary,
I think more people (at least on this NG) like Khaiyyam
a great deal more than Sajjad. As regards Jaidev, there
is one difference between him and Sajjad. Sajjad was
more or less an independent composer and with a very very
"independent" mind of his own. Jaidev spent a great deal
of his music career as an assistant. And I rather suspect
that at least some of his independent assignments came
about because his services were "cheaper" (in terms of
money) than most of his contemporary composers. Sunil
Dutt and K. A. Abbas were not known as generous paymasters.
As regards the "Arabic flavour", can we prepare a list
of those Sajjad songs where this attribute is quite
prominent ? I rather suspect that his compositions in
"Rustom Sohrab" have tended to accentuate this sort of
reaction. And the examples of this flavour (in RDB's
music) as given by you ("Yamma yamma", "Dil lena khel
hai...." and "Mehbooba Mehbooba") are not, IMHO, quite
representative of Arabian music. There is a certain
raucous coarseness in these compositions that makes me
hesitate in classing them as "Arabic" compositions.
But there are so many other examples which we somehow
never seem to discuss in this NG. Listen carefully
to certain CR/SJ/KA songs and the music in so many "Arabian
Nights" fantasy films and you would know what I mean.
Compared to Sajjad, SDB, Salil, Anil Biswas and
Naushad certainly have more strings to their bow(s).
But, just as Bhaitiyali, Bengali, Assamese or Folk
are flavours, so is Melody. And this one flavour
Sajjad had in plenty. I for one would never say that
his compositions are loud, raucous or coarse or devoid
of melody. Obviously, like the man himself, his
music never seemed to seek universality.
BTW, does Ganti also think that Ashok is in denial
mode ? !!
Afzal
I hope you won't take offense at anything in my
rejoinder.
Surjit Singh
> But that said and done, the good Dr is talking through his hat. The
> most ridiculous example is of Nargis. How can a lyrcist make or break
> a heroine's career? And what did Shailendra's demise have to do with
> the break-up of the Raj Kapoor/Nargis romance !! And then CR and
> Roshan too had little to do with Shailendra.
>
> Total absence of logic !
It's called 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' fallacy in logic.
>
> Ritu
--
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
http://hindi-movies-songs.com/index.html
joshilay
> "Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in message news:<407583D9...@privacy.net>...
> > Ritu wrote:
>But I never said I dislike everything Sajjad did. 'Dil mein sama gaye
sajan'
> makes it to my top 10 Talat duets. Further more I like the way RDB
> incorporates the 'Arabic flavour' in 'Mehbooba', 'Yamma Yamma' and
> 'Dil lena khel dildaar ka'. I just find Sajjad's Arabic flavour very
> monotonous.
i AM a bit of a Sajjad fan. though haven't heard all his work. so
can't say if his arabic flavour was monotonous or not.
But RD has given variety of songs with Arabic Flavours. in fact IMO,
"Matawali Ankhowale" from his debut film Chote Nawab has a strong
arabic touch to it. but don't think Dil lena and Yamma Yamma can be
termed as songs with middle east touch. Mehbooba was a lift from a
Greek song. so to make it sound like a arabic one is some creativity
:)
IMHO, his best effort was Ae Khuda Har Faisla (Abdullah) - just listen
to the Saxaphone and RD crooning "Allah.." - Fabulous
anyone has seen RD's Dubai show video? before playing a song on
harmonica he says "now that we are in this part of the world let me
play something sounding close to Arabstan" and then he plays Lehrake
aaya hain (Waris) on harmonica. just mind blowing. no wonder people
call him industry's best harmonica player.
> Cheers
J.L.A
Srinivas Ganti
> BTW, does Ganti also think that Ashok is in denial
> mode ? !!
I also think that Ashok likes SDB's music but at the same he critises SDB
in an atttempt to irk SDB's fans :)
He has been doing this over the ages. Ketan has been a witness to
this even longer than I have been!
sg.
V S Rawat
A. Top Posting.
> Q. Which is the most irritating way of replying to a post?
------------
Hope you get the idea. :)
-Rawat
Vijay Kumar K
> So exquisite are Sajjad's songs that even 'Daddy' Burman
> (easily amongst our more illustrious, though
> considerably over-rated composers) appeared to
> have done his musical painting using numbers."
>
> I'm sorry that I had slightly misquoted earlier saying
> that SJ was also involved in this comment of Dr. Aziz.
> He refers only to SDB here. I had also got a few
> words wrong like painting -> playing, as I was writing
> from memory then.
>
If you go to stores that sell this kind of stuff, there are books or sets
created for children where the basic picture is drawn and a set of paints
are provided. The base picture is divided into a number of smaller shapes,
each with a specific number. Each box/jar of paint attached is assigned
a number similarly. So, all you have to do to create a good picture is
match the number on the paint jar to the number in the shape. So, you
color all the "yellow" shapes first, then all the "green" shapes and so
on.
As you can appreciate, this makes for a very sterile output and one that
can be easily replicated by anyone who follows the same formula. My 3-year
old daughter does the same with one of her computer games. She has got a
similar match-the-following computer game for making musical tunes.
At a fundamental level, that is all that the people who play music by
reading it off the sheets are doing - match the printed note to a specific
key, for example.
Vijay
Surjit Singh
> can be easily replicated by anyone who follows the same formula. My 3-year
> old daughter does the same with one of her computer games. She has got a
> similar match-the-following computer game for making musical tunes.
That was a big hint! Now I (and all who attended the meet at Chetan and
Purvi's house) know which Vijay Kumar you are!
>
> Vijay
--
Surjit Singh, a diehard movie fan(atic), period.
Visit my home page at
http://hindi-movies-songs.com/index.html
Srinivas Ganti
"Surjit Singh" <surjit...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c573t4$2nraef$1...@ID-159547.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Vijay Kumar K wrote:
> > can be easily replicated by anyone who follows the same formula. My
3-year
> > old daughter does the same with one of her computer games. She has got a
> > similar match-the-following computer game for making musical tunes.
>
> That was a big hint! Now I (and all who attended the meet at Chetan and
> Purvi's house) know which Vijay Kumar you are!
Isn't that "K" after Vijay Kumar enugh to distinguish him from the other
Vijay Kumar ?
sg.
Surjit Singh
No.
>
> sg.
Sunil Dandekar
What the 2 sisters say about the music directors or whose songs they
put in their all-time-great list seems to be more coloured by the
rapport they enjoy with the MD (at that point in time!) than intrinsic
merit of the songs. I would take such opinions with a pinch of salt. I
have seen the lists changing over the years.
There is also an element of professional courtesy behind such comments
which may have be discounted. she must have said similar things about
almost every music director from time to time.
I have read in many articles that Sajjad Hussain was known to be very
un-compromising and dogmatic. Since some great people are eccentric or
unusual, it is quite easy to think that for a person to be so
unconventional he must have been really great.
IMHO some of his compositions are simply great, but not in enough
quantity to earn him a place in the all time greats.
Vinayak K.Gore
> I have often heard Sajjad being reffered as the "music director of
> music directors", "greatest music director", "the most original music
> director" etc.
>
> I was wondering if anyone would share their views on why this is so?
>
> With so few movies and songs, and one might argue, not enough body of
> work, why is he accorded such a high status?
I think if an MD has composed song(s) for Saigal or Noor Jahan, they
are considered great,irrespective of the quality of music.Naushad is
doubly great for he has a unique distinction of composing for both
singers.
Sajjad has composed for Noor Jahan in Dost.That coupled with stories
of his eccentric nature makes him great.Also stories about
complexities of Sajjad's tunes such as CR saying that he used to make
5-6 tunes from a single tune of Sajjad also contribute to his
greatness.
Vinayak
Birbal
I realize that the *popular* opinion does not consider him *the
greatest*. Majority of the people may not have even heard of him. It
is the experts in the field... may it be critics or other MDs
themseleves who appear to be saying so. (I had read an article from
Raju Bharatan where he says that CR used to call Sajjad "MD of MDs".
Anilda has called him, more than once, "the most original MD".
Hridaynath Mangeshkar, another genious composer himself, considers
Sajjad/Noor Jehan's 'Badnam Mohabbat kaun kare' as his most favorite
song... and so on. So I guess I am looking for a more analytical
approach towards this issue.
Personally I am a huge fan of Sajjad but hesitate in calling him *the
greatest* none the less.
"Orginality" appears to be the most acceptable/convincing answer among
those that have been suggested so far. No one else has composed a tune
like 'Ai Dilruba' or 'Ye hawa ye raat ye chandani' or 'dil me saman
gaye sajan' or 'woh to chale gaye ai dil'.
There are a few other things that come to mind... his command of
orchestration for one... (I think background music in ai dilruba alone
is enough to prove this point) but that would make him a great
*craftsman* and not *artist*.
There is some otherworldlyness to his tunes... but I guess this could
be called a subjective opinion.
There are stories about his whimsical personality. But we all know
that is not the reason why he is called great... it simply adds to it.
so I keep going back to orginality.... but how does one define
originality?
and is there anything other than originality to his reputation?
anyone?
naniwadekar
"Birbal" <bir...@hotmail.com> wrote -
>
> "Orginality" appears to be the most acceptable/convincing answer among
> those that have been suggested so far. No one else has composed a tune
> like 'Ai Dilruba' or 'Ye hawa ye raat ye chandani' or 'dil me saman
> gaye sajan' or 'woh to chale gaye ai dil'.
>
No one else has composed tunes like 'ham aur tum aur ye khushi'
or 'le gaye pahaluu se dil' or 'ruuTh ke tum to chal diye'.
No one else has composed tunes like 'diya jalao jagamag
jagamag' or 'meraa dhiire se ghuuNghaT' or 'kaale kaale
baadal pe goraa goraa chaand'.
No one else has composed tunes like 'ban chale raam raghuraaii'
or 'jholii bhar taare' or 'naino.n se nainaa milaa ke'.
I hope you get the point. None of the MDs alluded to above
was as repetitive as Sajjad, though.
- dn
Birbal
Fair enough... I would buy that for the sake of the argument (although
the issue here is the originality in the tune and not the quality
thereof).... but even in that case the question still remains... why
is Sajjad singled out for the high position?
naniwadekar
"Birbal" <bir...@hotmail.com> wrote -
>
> Fair enough... I would buy that for the sake of the argument (although
> the issue here is the originality in the tune and not the quality
> thereof).... but even in that case the question still remains... why
> is Sajjad singled out for the high position?
>
There is nothing about Sajjad's tunes which makes them 'more
original' than tunes of other MDs. You are correct that Sajjad
has received lot of praise which remains unexplained. This
topic has been discussed on rmim in the past. But, briefly,
MDs who have praised Sajjad thus haven't always invoked
his name as 'the foremost MD' and they have failed to describe
what makes Sajjad's technique different in their eyes. Sajjad's
uniqueness has become a self-perpetuating myth to which
journalists, who want hyperbole to peddle, and our MDs,
not noted for powers of articulation, have fallen prey.
Journalists should ask MDs to account for their praise of
Sajjad and if the MDs fail to do so, not report their remarks
praising Sajjad. But the journalists do the exact opposite
as hyperbole sells copy.
Finally, you are wrong that Sajjad has been singled out for
the high position of 'the greatest' composer. C Ramchandra,
Sudhir Phadke, Roshan, O P Nayyar have all spoken with
fervour about one MD and his name is not Sajjad. The man
himself used to give pre-eminence to Boral. Kamal Dasgupta
singled out Khemchand for praise. We are *now* talking of
MDs whose achievement (and genius) exceeded Sajjad's.
- dn
V S Rawat
Aren't you starting another hyperbole without explaining it?
A year ago, you were all praises for Gyan Dutt with same
adjectives.
-Rawat
naniwadekar
"V S Rawat" <VSR...@datainfosys.net> wrote -
>
> Aren't you starting another hyperbole without explaining it?
>
The obvious difference is that it is easy to see why Khemchands
and Gyan Dutts have received praise. You will find hundreds
of articles (or rmim posts) discussing/explaining their merit
whereas in Sajjad's case, while his genius is unquestionable,
it has not been explained why he is often singled out for praise
in special terms.
- dn
Surjit Singh
It's almost like Einstein saying that a lone experimental proof would
have been enough when told that many hiundred Nazi scientists signed a
statement saying that The Theory of Relativity is wrong!
>
> - dn
Ritu
>
> a great deal more than Sajjad. As regards Jaidev, there
> is one difference between him and Sajjad. Sajjad was
> more or less an independent composer and with a very very
> "independent" mind of his own. Jaidev spent a great deal
> of his music career as an assistant. And I rather suspect
> that at least some of his independent assignments came
> about because his services were "cheaper" (in terms of
> money) than most of his contemporary composers. Sunil
> Dutt and K. A. Abbas were not known as generous paymasters.
Quite Possible. But I don't think that would have anything to do with
the hype surrounding Sajjad. Or do you mean a lot of people did not
take Jaidev seriously because of his status as an assistant?
>
> As regards the "Arabic flavour", can we prepare a list
> of those Sajjad songs where this attribute is quite
> prominent ? I rather suspect that his compositions in
> "Rustom Sohrab" have tended to accentuate this sort of
> reaction.
Well off the top of my head. Yes, the songs of Rustom Sohrab, 'Woh to
chale gaye aye dil', 'yeh hawa yeh raat yeh chandni'.
And the examples of this flavour (in RDB's
> music) as given by you ("Yamma yamma", "Dil lena khel
> hai...." and "Mehbooba Mehbooba") are not, IMHO, quite
> representative of Arabian music.
Then possibly I am thinking of some other trait which I am wrongly
calling Arabic flavour. But there is a 'mid-west' flavour to the above
songs. If you know what I am talking about.
There is a certain
> raucous coarseness in these compositions that makes me
> hesitate in classing them as "Arabic" compositions.
> But there are so many other examples which we somehow
> never seem to discuss in this NG. Listen carefully
> to certain CR/SJ/KA songs and the music in so many "Arabian
> Nights" fantasy films and you would know what I mean.
Haven't really paid attention. The only song I can think of at this
point is 'Mein garibon ka dil hoon' by Hemant Kumar.
>
> Compared to Sajjad, SDB, Salil, Anil Biswas and
> Naushad certainly have more strings to their bow(s).
> But, just as Bhaitiyali, Bengali, Assamese or Folk
> are flavours, so is Melody. And this one flavour
> Sajjad had in plenty. I for one would never say that
> his compositions are loud, raucous or coarse or devoid
> of melody. Obviously, like the man himself, his
> music never seemed to seek universality.
>
Yes.. that's exactly what I say.. He has brilliant songs, good songs
and bad songs. But he does get repetitive and caters to a very
restricted pallete. But he does have brilliant songs and yes they are
never raucous and loud.
>
>
> I hope you won't take offense at anything in my
> rejoinder.
Not at all :)
Cheers
Ritu
Ritu
> > "Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:40761F59...@privacy.net...
>
> > BTW, does Ganti also think that Ashok is in denial
> > mode ? !!
>
>
> I also think that Ashok likes SDB's music but at the same he critises SDB
> in an atttempt to irk SDB's fans :)
Wonder why he chose SDB. Poor SDB hardly has any die-hard fans. The
yahoo group dedicated to him has just 5-6 members. By and large SDB
does not inspire fanaticsm. Why didn't Ashok choose to irk the RDB or
Kishore fans? They are the ones who rise to the occasion without fail
:)
>
> He has been doing this over the ages. Ketan has been a witness to
> this even longer than I have been!
I really wonder what level fanaticsm you and Ketan displayed in the
past which led Ashok into his chronic state of denial :)
Cheers
Ritu
>
> sg.
Ket...@att.net
>I really wonder what level fanaticsm you and Ketan displayed in the
>past which led Ashok into his chronic state of denial :)
Since when has Ashok, needed a reason to be in a chronic state of denial?
:)
Ketan
Archisman
> I have often heard Sajjad being reffered as the "music director of
> music directors", "greatest music director", "the most original music
> director" etc.
>
> I was wondering if anyone would share their views on why this is so?
>
> With so few movies and songs, and one might argue, not enough body of
> work, why is he accorded such a high status?
Can someone throw some light on why Sajjad Hussain made remarks like
"Kishore Kumar was 'Shor' Kumar" & Talat Mehmood was 'Ghalat'
Mehmood"?
Also statements like "God only made one singer & that is Lata. I don't
know why God chose to make any other singer at all"?
With some lovely gems like 'tere jahaan se chal diye (talat), 'tere
jahaan se chal diye' & 'yeh chaar din bahaar ke' (kishore + asha), 'ab
der ho gayi wallah', 'phir tumhari yaad aayi aye sanam' etc., Sajjad
indeed had quite a few of non Lata numbers & that to with "ghalats" &
"shors"!
I feel all these singers put in their best efforts & the results were
extraordinary. I'm a big fan of Kishore kumar & I feel that his songs
for Sajjad were out of this world. Both the tunes seemed to be
tailor-made for Talat but Kishore rendered them as beautifully as
anybody else could have done, if not better (because of his superb
tonal quality).
Regards-Archisman.
Sudhir
the term from American Pop music, where this technique was used
in 50s to 60s. The Rhythm Track /s were recorded by the session artists,
aka: musicians, who were not part of the main Vocal Band / Singer, on
a seperate track of a reel-to-reel tape recorder. Many times tracks, with
different rhythm, were recorded, with the expectation that the new
owner - Vocal Band / Group will be able to marry them to some
song in the future. Since the session artists and the recording studios
were already paid - i.e minimum shift charges, any thing recorded
during this sesssion was a freebie). In Indian Music industry, this
hanky-panky stuff was never employed, until A R Rehman unearthed it.
Few good examples of such Rhyhm Tracks are:
SANGDIL / Dharti Se Door Gore Badlon Ke
..do.. Woh To Chale Gaye Ae Dil
DOST / Badnaam Mohabbat Kaun Kare
HULCHUL / Aaj Mere Naseeb Ne
RUSTOM SOHRAB / Phir Tumahri Yaad Aayi ( in title lines)
The second mystique about Sajjad's compositions is their difficulty in
terms of rendering. Some of his tunes required lot of rehersals, before
the singer could get it right. The best example of course is:
Ae Dilruba, Nazren Mila.
It will be interesting to find out, if Lata has ever sang it at any of her
Stage / TV performances. I have some reservations, that the answer
will be affirmative.
Sudhir
Archisman
> With some lovely gems like 'tere jahaan se chal diye (talat), 'tere
> jahaan se chal diye' & 'yeh chaar din bahaar ke' (kishore + asha),
Should have read 'yeh hawa yeh raat yeh chaandni' (talat),......
Apologies-Archisman.
Sudhir
version by Asha (you had listed it as by: Talat. However the follow-up
msg. is related to Kishore)
Sajjad was a short-tempered man and if during the takes, the singer made
a mistake, he would say anything what came to his mind. The remarks
were not ment to insult the singers, rather were intended to prod them
and concentrate on singing. The results were generally quite good.
The singers (Talat or Kishore), and for that matter Lata, did not
mind doing countless rehersals, until the man was satisfied (in case of
Yeh Hawa Yeh Raat Yeh Chandini, he remained upset, not for Talat,
but for the sitar player). I suggest that you and for that matter, other
listeners don't take Sajjad's remarks seriously. The concerned artists,
on whom he showered these quotes, never complained, so why should
any one else do.
Irrespective of what other people say, a large number of music
lovers have, and will continue to have very high regard for
Sajjad Hussain. Stating that Khemchand Prakash or R C
Boral should be accorded higher status is a useless exercise. The
same group who were able to recognize Sajjad creativity, have
equally high respect for other MDs, be it be: Khemchand Prakash
(Please see my recent posting, related to his music for: TANSEN),
R C Boral, Pankaj Mullick, Anil Biswas, Naushad and so on.
SUDHIR
---------------------------
arch...@yahoo.co.in (Archisman) wrote in message > >
Ashok
>
>Then possibly I am thinking of some other trait which I am wrongly
>calling Arabic flavour. But there is a 'mid-west' flavour to the above
>songs. If you know what I am talking about.
>Ritu
I don't know what you are talking about. Do you?
There is "Middle East", the last surviving Eurocentric geographical
reference. There is "West Asia", which is the proper designation
for the area. There is "Mid West" is the United Sates, although it
is closer to the East than the West.
What are you talking about?
On second thoughts, I withdraw the question. Please don't answer.
Ashok
Ashok
>
>bir...@hotmail.com (Birbal) wrote in message news:<e64647f9.04040...@posting.google.com>...
>> I have often heard Sajjad being reffered as the "music director of
>> music directors", "greatest music director", "the most original music
>> director" etc.
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone would share their views on why this is so?
>>
>> With so few movies and songs, and one might argue, not enough body of
>> work, why is he accorded such a high status?
>
>Can someone throw some light on why Sajjad Hussain made remarks like
>"Kishore Kumar was 'Shor' Kumar" & Talat Mehmood was 'Ghalat'
>Mehmood"?
>
>Also statements like "God only made one singer & that is Lata. I don't
>know why God chose to make any other singer at all"?
>
>With some lovely gems like 'tere jahaan se chal diye (talat),
I suspect you meant to include some other song here, either
"maaza.ndaraan" or "ye havaa ye raat ye chaa.ndanii".
'tere
>jahaan se chal diye' & 'yeh chaar din bahaar ke' (kishore + asha), 'ab
>der ho gayi wallah', 'phir tumhari yaad aayi aye sanam' etc., Sajjad
>indeed had quite a few of non Lata numbers & that to with "ghalats" &
>"shors"!
>
>I feel all these singers put in their best efforts & the results were
>extraordinary. I'm a big fan of Kishore kumar & I feel that his songs
>for Sajjad were out of this world.
I had the impression till now that you cared for writing in a
sober manner, avoiding excessive junk that fanatics are prone to.
The following sentence is highly objectionable.
Both the tunes seemed to be
>tailor-made for Talat but Kishore rendered them as beautifully as
>anybody else could have done, if not better (because of his superb
>tonal quality).
>
>Regards-Archisman.
The logical implication of the sentence is as silly as Sajjad's
sentence you quoted above. Since no other singer has Kishore's
tonal quality, why should they bother to sing or, if they did, why
should anyone bother to listen?
Ashok
V S Rawat
> "Srinivas Ganti" <g#a#n#t#i#s#r#i...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> message
> news:<c56dkk$2pehct$1...@ID-75004.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>> "Afzal A. Khan" <me_a...@privacy.net> wrote in
>>> message
>>
>> news:40761F59...@privacy.net...
>>
>>
>>> BTW, does Ganti also think that Ashok is in denial
>>> mode ? !!
>>
>>
>> I also think that Ashok likes SDB's music but at the
>> same he critises SDB in an atttempt to irk SDB's fans
>> :)
>
>
> Wonder why he chose SDB. Poor SDB hardly has any die-hard
> fans. The yahoo group dedicated to him has just 5-6
> members. By and large SDB does not inspire fanaticsm.
Do other MD's "inspire" fanaticism? Which ones? How?
My feeling is that it is not some ingradient in a MD or in
his music that inspires or kills fanaticism.
It is the popularity that a MD or his music gets, that makes
some people uncomfortable because they are either fans of
some other less popular MD, or there are reasons to believe
that that popular MD compromised with quality to become
popular, or that MD was a pirate, .... many reasons are there.
In SDB's case, I think first point can be applied. He was
never crowned No. 1 nor was accorded some prefix like "the
Great" Naushad. That leads his fans to become fanatically
oppossed to other, more popular MDs. Then Newton's third law
comes in effect and the fans of those "other, more popular"
MDs try to defend their idol. And a reinforcing cycle of
fanaticism is in full swing.
-Rawat
V S Rawat
> Quite a number of Sajjad's tunes have a 'Rhythm Track'
> (I have borrowed the term from American Pop music, where
> this technique was used in 50s to 60s. The Rhythm Track
> /s were recorded by the session artists, aka:
> musicians, who were not part of the main Vocal Band /
> Singer, on a seperate track of a reel-to-reel tape
> recorder. Many times tracks, with different rhythm,
> were recorded, with the expectation that the new owner -
> Vocal Band / Group will be able to marry them to some
> song in the future. Since the session artists and the
> recording studios were already paid - i.e minimum
> shift charges, any thing recorded during this sesssion
> was a freebie). In Indian Music industry, this
> hanky-panky stuff was never employed, until A R Rehman
> unearthed it.
Thinking about it, Sajjad did not have technologically
advanced recording/ mixing available with him in that era
which are available to ARR.
Further, ARR does create some sounds purely on computers
which was not possible for Sajjad in that era.
It is sad that Sajjad stopped composing when computers and
better equipments were getting born. I wonder whether he
composed private songs/ albums in or after late 60s using
such technology.
Still there is about three decades' gap between sajjad and
ARR. I am not aware whether any MD used such methods in this
duration. RDB could be one probable for having done it. If
someone could give some examples.
It will also be interesting to know whether ilaiyaraja, who
had such calibre, ever used such techniques in tamil music.
If windows 95 had been windows 65 and sajjad could have laid
his hands on soundforge 6.0......
-Rawat
Tadatmya Vaishnav
"Sudhir" <maild...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e32c7906.0404...@posting.google.com...
> Tere Jahan Se Chal Diye / RUKHSANA is by Kishore, with another
> version by Asha (you had listed it as by: Talat. However the follow-up
> msg. is related to Kishore)
>
> Sajjad was a short-tempered man and if during the takes, the singer made
> a mistake, he would say anything what came to his mind. The remarks
> were not ment to insult the singers, rather were intended to prod them
> and concentrate on singing. The results were generally quite good.
>
> The singers (Talat or Kishore), and for that matter Lata, did not
> mind doing countless rehersals, until the man was satisfied (in case of
> Yeh Hawa Yeh Raat Yeh Chandini, he remained upset, not for Talat,
> but for the sitar player). I suggest that you and for that matter, other
> listeners don't take Sajjad's remarks seriously. The concerned artists,
> on whom he showered these quotes, never complained, so why should
> any one else do.
<snipped>
I've heard on radio that both the sitar and sarangi players who played
the interlude pieces in 'yah havaa, yah raat..' were 'eminent' players, but
even then Sajjad was unhappy with them in the rehearsals, and even with the
final result, which he felt was a compromise. Any idea who these players
could be?
Regards,
Tadatmya.
>
> SUDHIR
Archisman
> I had the impression till now that you cared for writing in a
> sober manner, avoiding excessive junk that fanatics are prone to.
> The following sentence is highly objectionable.
>
>
> Both the tunes seemed to be
> >tailor-made for Talat but Kishore rendered them as beautifully as
> >anybody else could have done, if not better (because of his superb
> >tonal quality).
> >
> >Regards-Archisman.
>
>
> The logical implication of the sentence is as silly as Sajjad's
> sentence you quoted above. Since no other singer has Kishore's
> tonal quality, why should they bother to sing or, if they did, why
> should anyone bother to listen?
Dear Mr. Ashok,
I would have been as confused/puzzled as you are had I read my post
more carefully before clicking the 'send' button! (chuckle!)
What I meant was Sajjad Hussain seemed to be enough of a perfectionist
to make a singer singer exactly the way he wanted. That's why
(strictly in my opinion) Kishore out Talat-ed Talat in those two
Talat-like numbers. Why would then one make comments like 'only Lata
can sing' etc. etc. (I guess, some of the later posts does clear my
doubts when they reveal that Sajjad was short of paitence in the
recording room & did not mince words, etc. etc.)
Regards-Archisman.
Ritu
Well Ashokji , since you could not resist posting your question
despite of not wanting an answer, I can't resist posting my answer
despite of your not wanting to ask the question :)
FWIW (ahem!) I meant 'Middle-Eastern'
Cheers
Ritu
Ritu
>
> Do other MD's "inspire" fanaticism? Which ones? How?
>
> My feeling is that it is not some ingradient in a MD or in
> his music that inspires or kills fanaticism.
Well not too sure if this is a rhetoric or a genuine question. Anyway,
I will try to live down my connection with the mafia and treat it as a
genuine question :)
First I agree with your point partially, it's not only the subject but
also the fan who causes this phenomena. Some people are naturals as
fanatics while others are just not capable of it. Having said that, I
do think that ultimately the MD and his music are the essential root
of fanaticsm. Infact you can extend that concept to cinema too. You'll
never find people fanatical about Balraj Sahni (even though he is one
of the finest actors of Indian Cinema).. but Amitabh Bachchan or
Rajesh Khanna generate hysteria. That's because the audience connects
to their persona more than their art (What Professor Saab termed as
'Personality Star'). A similiar concept exists for music also. RDB,
Kishore, Rafi, Lata, Asha.. all these artists have very strong musical
personalities. And that's what inspires the fanaticsm for them. Why is
it that one does not find Manna Dey fanatics? That's because he
doesn't really have such a strong musical personality.
As far as SDB goes, while I find his music very rich in spirit, the
flavour is not as potent as the artists mentioned above. I guess
that's why, while he does appeal to a large cross-section of people he
never really is the topmost MD in most people's list (if you ask me,
he's not the only MD in my top list either). As a singer he leaves a
much stronger stamp. I wouldn't have been such a big fan of his if I
hadn't discovered his singing output (beyond HFM). To me SDB's singing
has the quality to inspire fanaticsm not his music. Which is why even
a self-confessed SDB fanatic like Srinivas Ganti has a very active
musical life beyond SDB.
> It is the popularity that a MD or his music gets, that makes
> some people uncomfortable because they are either fans of
> some other less popular MD, or there are reasons to believe
> that that popular MD compromised with quality to become
> popular, or that MD was a pirate, .... many reasons are there.
Well if you ask me, in my 2-3 years on these newsgroups the strongest
fans I have seen are of Kishore, Rafi, RDB, Lata, Asha. All these
artists have no 'less popularity' syndrome. So that theory goes out of
the box!
>
> In SDB's case, I think first point can be applied. He was
> never crowned No. 1 nor was accorded some prefix like "the
> Great" Naushad. That leads his fans to become fanatically
> oppossed to other, more popular MDs.
Again does not work for SDB. Simply because he has been a highly
respected and revered musician throughout his career (infact Dr Aziz
even mentions he is 'considerably overrated'). From the mid 50s
onwards, he hit the jackpot with amazing regularity and worked with
the topmost banners. SDB surely was a front of the line MD along with
SJ, Naushad and OPN.
Yes your argument could hold true for someone like Roshan, Jaidev or
Khayyam or even Sajjad who were very talented (and thus have a strong
fan following) but never got public acceptance to a great degree. I
guess Anil Biswas could also go to that list though he was top of the
line in the 40s. So in an ARR Vs Anil Biswas war maybe your point
holds true or it could even hold true in a SDB Vs Anil Biswas war from
the opposite end. But by and large the MDs music and human nature are
the two basic points that drive fanaticsm
Cheers,
Ritu
V S Rawat
good point.
Possible explanation could be that he was fed up with
teaching kishore-s and wished that he finds natural,
intelligent talents like lata so that his efforts are
reduced and he can concentrate on composing.
> (I guess, some of the later posts does clear my doubts
> when they reveal that Sajjad was short of paitence in the
> recording room & did not mince words, etc. etc.)
>
> Regards-Archisman.
-Rawat
Ashok
>
>What I meant was Sajjad Hussain seemed to be enough of a perfectionist
>to make a singer singer exactly the way he wanted. That's why
>(strictly in my opinion) Kishore out Talat-ed Talat in those two
>Talat-like numbers. Why would then one make comments like 'only Lata
>can sing' etc. etc. (I guess, some of the later posts does clear my
>doubts when they reveal that Sajjad was short of paitence in the
>recording room & did not mince words, etc. etc.)
>
>Regards-Archisman.
Think of it this way. You either write analytically or rhetorically.
Statements such as "Who but Lata could have sung it" are are of the
latter variety. They're fine so long as the purpose is to express
one's admiration, partisanship, fandome and such. There is no point
in taking such statements literally and examining them. If one
wants to counter it, one tries to look for a catchier non sequitar.
Can be great fun.
Analytical writing would be where you try to express, to the best
of your discernment, qualities of a singer--the strengths and
weaknesses--and how they play out in the context of song(s) being
discussed. Here, there is scope for reasoned arguments and
explanations.
Both kinds of discourse have their place in RMIM. Which kind
are you adopting? To me, it looks like you are upto something
that is not forthright--trying to pass off a preference as something
objective! Phrases like "strictly in my opinion" are just
precautionary devices. Stripped of diversionary phrases, what
you are saying is a fanatics's rubbish: All songs would sound
better if Kishore were to sing them.
Ashok
Archisman
> > Think of it this way. You either write analytically or rhetorically.
> Statements such as "Who but Lata could have sung it" are are of the
> latter variety. They're fine so long as the purpose is to express
> one's admiration, partisanship, fandome and such. There is no point
> in taking such statements literally and examining them. If one
> wants to counter it, one tries to look for a catchier non sequitar.
> Can be great fun.
>
> Analytical writing would be where you try to express, to the best
> of your discernment, qualities of a singer--the strengths and
> weaknesses--and how they play out in the context of song(s) being
> discussed. Here, there is scope for reasoned arguments and
> explanations.
>
> Both kinds of discourse have their place in RMIM. Which kind
> are you adopting? To me, it looks like you are upto something
> that is not forthright--trying to pass off a preference as something
> objective! Phrases like "strictly in my opinion" are just
> precautionary devices. Stripped of diversionary phrases, what
> you are saying is a fanatics's rubbish: All songs would sound
> better if Kishore were to sing them.
>
>
> Ashok
Dear Mr. Ashok,
I've seen a lot of topics in RMIM/RMIC veer off their track only to
culminate in unpleasant exchanges. To have this thread go the same way
(and that too by being an inadvertant cause of it) is the last thing
that I want. This thread is indeed very nice & thought-provoking & Mr.
Rawat's response to my same query is well accepted by me.
I'm a poor writer & often fail to express my actual intent. However,
what I do vouch for is my more or less impartial admiration for all
artists of Hindusthani Classical, Hindi & Bengali popular songs.
That's my domain:- no more. I'm sorry if my posts on this topic have
given you hints of them 'not being forthright'.
I'm a big fan of Kishore (for the same reason as I'm an admirer of
Maujuddin Khan's thumris) but never at the cost of any other artist.
Hence, every time (not always!) that I feel that Kishore would have
rendered a song beautifully (maybe better than the artist who has sung
the original version), I think I MUST add the phrase 'strictly in my
opinion'.
I know of no other way demonstrate respect of other's views.
Regards-Archisman.
P.S. Dear Mr. Rawat, thanks for your opinion. (though I have resons to
believe that Kishore was one the most receptive singers in India & had
an uncanny ability to reproduce exactly what a composer wanted). With
Sajjad, I guess, even Lata had to put lots of painstaking efforts as
well.
The debate can go on & on. To pay homage to Sajjad, I think one can
safely say that whoever that he had worked with, he had managed to
extract their best efforts & hence all his songs have a tag of
greatness attached to them. It would have ben interesting see if his
quality would have remained the same if he had more assignments like
Naushad, Madan Mohan, S D Burman, Shankar Jaikishan, etc. - Regards.
Birbal
> culminate in unpleasant exchanges.
Its about time somebody realized this... it looks like this thread is
also going the same way... thanks a lot for raising this concern.
Many people here seem to be more interested in rumours, anecdotes,
heresay stories about Sajjad.
Some others seems interested in technicalities in the statements made
by others.
Some more are interested in disecting something some author has said
about Sajjad and offer their own interpretations of what it might
mean!!
In general, there has been talk about everything except Sajjad's music
and what in that music makes him *Great* (which was the original
topic).
I would kindly request the Bhadralok on this NG to go back to the
original topic and offer views on what *THEY* think about Sajjad's
music (and *NOT* his personality) and what in *THEIR* opinion would
make people bestow these great laurels on Sajjad.
Thanks.
S.Jayaraman
particularly of those between '40 - '60 have their 'versions' or call
it whims.Its a fact! So?
As you state in your post,what then is the greatness of SAJJAD
HUSSAIN's film music? Let me hear from it you first.
Mine will follow and will be precise and to the point.
Jay
20/4
Birbal
I *DON'T* think of Sajjad as the greatest. In fact I am surprised that
he is accorded such a high honor in spite of such a low volume.
Don't get me wrong... I love his music... and honestly think he is a
genius composer. But "the greatest ever"?? I am a little skeptical.
That was the very reason I posted the question.
Now you come along and ask me why *I* think he is the greatest?
The answer is: I Don't.
Ashok
>
>Dear Mr. Ashok,
Now that you are back from Baroda, you can deal with this!
>I've seen a lot of topics in RMIM/RMIC veer off their track only to
>culminate in unpleasant exchanges. To have this thread go the same way
>(and that too by being an inadvertant cause of it) is the last thing
>that I want. This thread is indeed very nice & thought-provoking & Mr.
>Rawat's response to my same query is well accepted by me.
Well, if Mr. Rawat's articles are your cup of tea, you can be RMIM's
guest to ..mmm.. to consume as much as you want; there certainly
is no shortage!
>I'm a poor writer & often fail to express my actual intent. However,
>what I do vouch for is my more or less impartial admiration for all
>artists of Hindusthani Classical, Hindi & Bengali popular songs.
>That's my domain:- no more. I'm sorry if my posts on this topic have
>given you hints of them 'not being forthright'.
If you don't like "not forthright", how about "over the top"?
What you say is not uninteresting, by the way! That's why I am
probing it.
>I'm a big fan of Kishore (for the same reason as I'm an admirer of
>Maujuddin Khan's thumris) but never at the cost of any other artist.
>Hence, every time (not always!) that I feel that Kishore would have
>rendered a song beautifully (maybe better than the artist who has sung
>the original version), I think I MUST add the phrase 'strictly in my
>opinion'.
>
>I know of no other way demonstrate respect of other's views.
>
>Regards-Archisman.
You are wrong there. Expressions such as 'strictly in my opinion'
and IMHO are dime a dozen. You talk as if using those magic chants
you can have immunity from criticism to whatever is the statement
to which one of those chants are appended. I, for one, ignore those
chants, precisely because I consider them redundant: what you write
is, of course, your opinion--humble or otherwise. What else can
they be? Facts of nature? Mathematical results?
In other words, I chose to contest your opinion. And a good way
for us to show respect for one another's views is to take the
views seriously and engage with them. In order to show respect, it
is not necessary to get unctuous and hollowly docile, by the way.
You talk about times when you felt Kishore would have rendered
a song more beautifully than the artist who has sung the original
version. Do note, however, that that is NOT what you have done here.
THAT--RMIMers contending that their favourite singer would have sung
a song better than the actual artist--has been common enough. For
example, going by many past threads on RMIM:
. Rafi fans claiming that he would have sung "jalate hai.n jis ke
liye" better.
. Rafi fans claiming that he would have sung "chalo ik baar phir se"
better.
. Kishore fans claiming that the reason why he did not happen to sing
"ajab daastaa.N hai terii ey zi.ndagii" was not because Shankar-
Jaikishan felt Rafi was the right person to sing it, but because
Kishore was focussing on his acting career and didn't give a
time slot to the music directors.
I have no idea of the "thought" processes (if you can call them that)
by which the respective fans come to these conclusions. One can
charitably say perhaps that they simulate, in their imagination,
their favourite singer renditioning those songs. Or perhaps it is
the case that they just love the "tone quality" of their favourite
singer and that's all there is to it.
This kind of judgement is somewhat easier when there is an
obvious flaw in the actual singer's rendition of the song. One
such case is the Talat-Lata song from 'Jahan Ara': "ey sanam aaj
ye qasam khaae". I like Talat's singing well enough for most of
the song, but find him inadequate at the climax of the song:
"ishq kyo.n paidaa kiyaa". I'd be impelled to look for an
alternative singer!
Note that in all these cases, people start with a song sung by
a singer other than their favourite singer. Then they claim that
their favourite singer would have sung it better. These fans'
hypothetical is the superior rendition their favourite singer
would have given.
That is NOT what you do in this thread. You start with two
perfectly good songs actually sung by Kishore for 'Rokhsana'.
You could have gloated over how well Kishore has sung them
and how no one else could sing them as well, and so on. The
usual Kishore fan's littany of "who else but Kishore". But
you go beyond all that. You produce an outlandish claim that
the songs are actually "Talat songs"! Then you go on to
gloating over how much better Kishore has sung them than
Talat could possibly have sung them.
As far as I can see, poor Talat is nowhere in the picture.
It is you who gratuitously drag him in--to his disadvantage.
Your hypothetical is an inferior rendition by an artist
who is not your favourite. This is what I characterized as
"not forthright" and "over the top".
To defend yourself, you will have to establish that these
are songs that are tailor-made for Talat. I am aware that
in these matters there cannot be a logically iron-clad
proof. That doesn't mean that it is enough for you to wave
your hands and say that that's your opinion. You have to
produce arguments. Note that you'll have to resolve a
logical conundrum: given that Sajjad composed the tunes
knowing who'll sing them and given that the chosen singer
sang them better than any other singer could, how can one
say that the tunes were not meant for this singer?
Your move in aggrandizing Kishore at the expense of Talat
reminded me of something I had read in a very different
context. Since matters religious have cropped in other
current threads, I'll go ahead and mention it.
Sometime ago, I was reading a book on the great "books"
of the Jews, which had a chapter each on such books by
presumably a leading authority. I found a paragraph in
the essay on the Hebrew Bible quite striking. I am quite
used to Jews claiming that thier Bible the greatest this
and the greatest that in human history. No big deal. All
groups indulge in similar boosterims, including us. But
what the other had to say in the paragraph went way
beyond such one-upmanship. What he wrote was on the
following lines ((I'm paraphrasing): "Take any culture,
any religion of any people in the world, past or present.
Take their great books. Identify the criteria or values
why these are their great books according to their own
lights. The Hebrew Bible would meet those criteria,
fulfill those values far better than their own books."
When I read the paragraph, I could help muttering
something like "These effing Jews."
I found your rhetorical move in favour of "your" singer
to be analogous, albeit far more benign or far less
virulent.
Ashok
Abhay Jain
"Ashok" <adhare...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:n9Hic.68286$L31....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
>
> This kind of judgement is somewhat easier when there is an
> obvious flaw in the actual singer's rendition of the song. One
> such case is the Talat-Lata song from 'Jahan Ara': "ey sanam aaj
> ye qasam khaae". I like Talat's singing well enough for most of
> the song, but find him inadequate at the climax of the song:
> "ishq kyo.n paidaa kiyaa". I'd be impelled to look for an
> alternative singer!
I would have used the term "horrible" instead of "inadequate".
In this case, I would put some blame on Madan Mohan too.
Abhay Jain
>
> Ashok
>
>
kcp
>
> . Kishore fans claiming that the reason why he did not happen to sing
> "ajab daastaa.N hai terii ey zi.ndagii" was not because Shankar-
> Jaikishan felt Rafi was the right person to sing it, but because
> Kishore was focussing on his acting career and didn't give a
> time slot to the music directors.
Any specific pointer where they "actually" said that Kishore could
have sung this song better yhan Rafi ? if not, then I think this
example is wrong..
>
> Your move in aggrandizing Kishore at the expense of Talat
Dear Mr Ashok..the above statement is a big spot on your otherwise
beautiful explanation of things...I think u should read Mr Archisman's
replies again...he stated those facts in two "different" posts - about
singing of Kishore in Rukhsana as good as Talat ( talat's general soft
melodious style ) "and" that "he" likes imagining Kishore in other
singer's songs...those are two different issues whichyou have
mixedup..
Thats it...
Mr Birbal to reply to your query..these "greatest" thing etc..are
quite personal opinions...and with regards to "Most Original" - sorry
I cannot comment because I have not heard "much" of the pre-Sajjad era
music ( desi / international ) so as to derive this fact of
originality.
Regds
KCP
Afzal A. Khan
kcp wrote:
>
> adhare...@verizon.net (Ashok) wrote in message news:<n9Hic.68286$L31....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>...
>
> >
> > . Kishore fans claiming that the reason why he did not happen to sing
> > "ajab daastaa.N hai terii ey zi.ndagii" was not because Shankar-
> > Jaikishan felt Rafi was the right person to sing it, but because
> > Kishore was focussing on his acting career and didn't give a
> > time slot to the music directors.
>
> Any specific pointer where they "actually" said that Kishore could
> have sung this song better yhan Rafi ? if not, then I think this
> example is wrong..
>
> >
> > Your move in aggrandizing Kishore at the expense of Talat
> Dear Mr Ashok..the above statement is a big spot on your otherwise
> beautiful explanation of things...I think u should read Mr Archisman's
> replies again...he stated those facts in two "different" posts - about
> singing of Kishore in Rukhsana as good as Talat ( talat's general soft
> melodious style ) "and" that "he" likes imagining Kishore in other
> singer's songs...those are two different issues whichyou have
> mixedup..
>
> Thats it...
> KCP
I think you are right in explaining what exactly Archisman
actually wrote. Also, I don't really know why he should
receive such a hostile reception in RMIM. Wasn't there some
thread in our NG some time back about the mafia etc. ?
I have seen some of the posts by Mr. Archisman in RMIC
and I was struck by his earnestness and the generally
deferential tenor of his style.
As far as the "Sharaarat" song is concerned, I don't know
which Kishore fans in our NG have actually claimed this
reason (Kishore trying to concentrate on an acting career
etc.) I think Kishore had sung all other songs (male) in
the movie. And there has been considerable discussion in
our NG as to how Rafi got to sing this song :
'Ajab hai daastaaN tiri ai zindagi
And the consensus seems to be that Kishore played a double
role in the movie and this song is picturised on his second
"avatar", hence the need to distinguish his singing voice
from the earlier songs like "Hum matwaale naujawaaN" etc.
In any case, this particular song was not at all under
discussion in this thread.
Afzal
Archisman
adhare...@verizon.net (Ashok) wrote in message news
> Now that you are back from Baroda, you can deal with this!
Gulp! Leave aside Baroda! Even without stepping an inch out of my
house, this would have been too hot to handle!
>
> Well, if Mr. Rawat's articles are your cup of tea, you can be RMIM's
> guest to ..mmm.. to consume as much as you want; there certainly
> is no shortage!
I protest mi-lord. I did differ with Mr. Rawat. I feel that besides an
out & out classical score, Kishore would not have taken more time than
any of his contemporaries to render a song to the best of his
abilities (and his best abilities are of very high quality).
> To defend yourself, you will have to establish that these
> are songs that are tailor-made for Talat. I am aware that
> in these matters there cannot be a logically iron-clad
> proof. That doesn't mean that it is enough for you to wave
> your hands and say that that's your opinion. You have to
> produce arguments. Note that you'll have to resolve a
> logical conundrum: given that Sajjad composed the tunes
> knowing who'll sing them and given that the chosen singer
> sang them better than any other singer could, how can one
> say that the tunes were not meant for this singer?
Well, I'll make an attempt to justify (though I might be leaving some
loose ends). Keeping Sajjad's opinion of Kishore ('Shor' Kumar) at the
back of my mind, I asked had myself that 'if Kishore was not the hero
of 'Rukhsana', who, by Sajjad's choice, would have the best suited to
sing a tune like this?' The resmblence of the phrase 'yeh hawa yeh
raat yeh chandni' with 'dete rahen duaayen hum' (from the song 'tere
jahaan se chal diye') was a strong pointer. Also, Kishore, who is very
robust in his diction, was extremely soft in both the songs of
'Rukhsana', a very very Talat-ish trait. And lastly, Kishore's voice
(especially in 'yeh chaar din bahaar ke') has a very subtle quiver
(hugely un-Kishorish) & so much like Talat.
> Your move in aggrandizing Kishore at the expense of Talat
> I found your rhetorical move in favour of "your" singer
> to be analogous,
If you think I've managed to come clean with my intents in my previous
paragraph, I'm sure you'll absolve me on both the counts! I like
Talat-saab's singing very much & was in a league of his own in the
decade of the 50's.
>albeit far more benign or far less
>virulent.
Thanks for this little breathing space!
Regards-Archisman.