cha.Dhatii jawaanii merii chaal mastaanii (Caravan, 1971)
Asif
dimensions, from its unique beat and superb singing to cute lyrics and
brilliant choreography on the screen. While Rafi rocks in this song
Lata lopes. Together they sizzle. I think those were pretty
progressive days, but I would still like to know how conservative
folks received this song then. I know the song was a big hit in
1971-72 and still mesmerizes one and all.
% ITRANS Song #
%
\startsong
\stitle{cha.Dhatii jawaanii merii chaal mastaanii}%
\film{Caravan}%
\year{1971}%
\starring{Jeetendra, Aruna Irani}%
\singer{Lata, Rafi}%
\music{R D Burman}%
\lyrics{Majrooh}%
%
% Tags:
% Audio on: HMV
% Contributor: Asif Alvi
% Transliterator: Asif Alvi
% Date: 29 May 2007
% Series: THGHT
% Comments: One of R.D. Burman's finest compositions, this song
remains only one of its kind.
% generated using www.giitaayan.com
%
\printtitle
#indian
%
hu_ii
( cha.Dhatii jawaanii merii chaal mastaanii
tuune kadar na jaanii raamaa ) 2
hoy cha.Dhatii jawaanii merii chaal mastaanii
tuune kadar na jaanii raamaa
haay raamaa haay raamaa haay raamaa
ulajhe kaahe re mai.n huu.N suurat me.n tujhase ba.Dhake kahii.n
he rii tuu hai jawaa.N to mai.n bhii sajiilaa kuchh kam nahii.n
ho o ho
ulajhe kaahe re mai.n huu.N suurat me.n tujhase ba.Dhake kahii.n
he rii tuu hai jawaa.N to mai.n bhii sajiilaa kuchh kam nahii.n
haay duniyaa hu_ii re mere pyaar kii diiwaanii
laakho.n kii mai.n dilajaanii raamaa
cha.Dhatii jawaanii merii chaal mastaanii
tuune kadar na jaanii raamaa
wo kaun aisii hai jisakaa hai ruup aisaa jaaduu bharaa
laa re mai.n bhii to dekhuu.n tuu jisakii dhun me.n hai baawaraa
ho o ho
wo kaun aisii hai jisakaa hai ruup aisaa jaaduu bharaa
laa re mai.n bhii too dekhuu.n tuu jisakii dhun me.n hai baawaraa
hoy usake kadam chuume terii jawaanii
wo hai shahar kii raanii raamaa
cha.Dhatii jawaanii merii chaal mastaanii
tuune kadar na jaanii raamaa
haay raamaa hoy raamaa haay raamaa
ab to tohe bataanaa hogaa re kaisii chhab hai merii
uff o mai.nne kahaa kab dikhane me.n tuu hai aisii burii
ho o ho
ab to tohe bataanaa hogaa re kaisii chhab hai merii
uff o mai.nne kahaa kab dikhane me.n tuu hai aisii burii
dekhe jo mujhe tere pyaar kii wo raanii
ho jaaye sharam se paanii raamaa
cha.Dhatii jawaanii merii chaal mastaanii
tuune kadar na jaanii raamaa
ho raamaa ho raamaa ho raamaa
%
#endindian
\endsong
Abhijit
I couldn't believe this wasn't in the ISB already. Kudos to you for
figuring this out. All in all, Caravan is a feather in RDB's cap and
one wonders how many feathers he had in early seventies. Forget rare
gems, by popularity alone he had albums like Amar Prem, Buddha Mil
Gaya, Hare Rama Hare Krishna, Paraya Dhan, Apna Desh, Do Chor, Jawani
Diwani, Mere Jeevan Saathi, Parichay, Rampur Ka Lakshman, Samadhi,
Seeta Aur Geeta, Aa Gale Lag Jaa, Anamika, Heera Panna, Namak Haraam,
Raja Rani, Yaadon Ke Baaraat, Aap Ki Kasam, Ajnabi, Manoranjan,
Aandhi, Deewar, Dharam Karam, Kaala Sona, Khel Khel Mein, Khushboo,
Sholay, Warrant, etc. in a span of 5 years!!! Could these be the most
productive 5 years by an MD?
Srinivas Ganti
If you just go by sheer numbers then I am sure LP or some recent
composer would have surpassed him.
If you mean by the number of memorable scores, then not in my book.
That is hard to determine unless a cut off on the number of movies is
specified.
If its around 10 movies in 5 years there are many contendors. Some
composers
will have multiple entries for the claim.
If we restrict our selves to composers with around 20 movies in that
span, early 50's SJ has few peers.
51-55 and 52-56 are candidates.
1951 Awaaraa
Baadal
Kaali Ghata
Naginaa
1952 Daag
Parbat
Poonam
1953 Aah
Aas
Aurat
Naya Ghar
Patita
Shikast
1954 Baadshaah
Boot Polish
Mayur Pankh
Pooja
1955 Seema
Shri 420
1956 Basant Bahaar
Chori Chori
Halaku
Kismat Ke Khel
New Delhi
Patraani
Raaj Hath
Abhijit
Sheer numbers are useless, so is restricting to any number of albums
when we are talking of 'productivity'. L-P will sure be there as
contendor if we consider popularity, but have they enjoyed such a
massive popularity of albums (29 listed above) at a stretch. They sure
topped Binaca charts more than any other MD and have belted out most
'loudspeaker'ed-album-of-the-year year after year, e.g., Daag, Satyam
Shivam Sundaram, Sargam, Karz, etc. But I would like to see their list
of movies for any 5-year period as you did for S-J.
That's 26 for a 6-year period and I see some albums which are probably
not that popular (you may like them very much). My list above excluded
(1971-75) movies like Adhikar, Lakhon Me Ek, Bombay To Goa, Rakhi Aur
Hathkadi, Jheel Ke Us Paar, Joshila, Shareef Badmash, Benaam,
Hamshakal, Phir Kab Milogi, Zahreela Insaan, etc. which had quite a
few popular songs as well. While I am talking about popularity here,
the albums also stood the test of time. That I didn't include Doosri
Seeta is because it wasn't popular even though I like it.
Srinivas Ganti
I am sure there are enugh ppl. who listen to those SJ albums today.
Note
that they are around 25 years older than the RD albums and many of
them have stood a sterner test of time.
Also if we come to % of good songs, I prefer SJ era. If I pick a
random
RD track like Paraya Dhan, Rampur Ka Laxman or Warrant
I can recall only one song from each on top of my head.
I have seen all those movies.
Satish Kalra
news:1180528414.5...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
More than that, those S-J albums were extremely popular in those days
themsleves.
If Srinivas were to extend his S-J list to 1960, there would be many more
albums which were all very popular (and hits), except perhaps for Baaghi
Sipaahi (1958) and College Girl (1960).
If Binaca Geet Mala were a yardstick, there was one program in 1959, when a
record 12 out of 16 songs were S-J compositions, from films such as Anari,
Chhoti Bahen, Ujala, Main Nashe Mein Hoon, Kanhaiyaa, Love Marriage, and
Shararat.
Every composer has given hits and popular albums, and it is an exercise in
futility to compare any two or more with each other, since music is so
subjective.
Despite the fact that S-J (of the 50's, and upto around mid-60's) remain my
favorites, it is SDBurman who continued to provide excellent music right
until his last day.
>
> Also if we come to % of good songs, I prefer SJ era. If I pick a
> random
> RD track like Paraya Dhan, Rampur Ka Laxman or Warrant
> I can recall only one song from each on top of my head.
> I have seen all those movies.
--
Happy Listenings.
Satish Kalra
Satish Kalra
news:1180488459....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Nitpicking department: You have not indicated which lines have been sung by
who. :-)
Vinay
>
Let's not talk about personal preferences. That doesn't lead to any
discussion and certainly cannot produce a conclusive answer. Answer
Abhijit's question. He has placed a quantifiable (for the most part)
claim. Can you refute it? Has there been any MD that has produced more
successful (read popular - whether instantly or over the time)
soundtracks in any given five-year period?
And let's substantiate success by some data - a Binaca Geetmala entry
or a sales figure perhaps. In fact, the general lack of this
information for most soundtracks makes this kind of exercise
difficult. But let's hope we can agree on the success of a soundtrack.
And then if we can, let's go one level deeper and do the same exercise
for the number of successful songs.
So can you point out a more successfully productive 5-year period by
any other MD in HFM history? I am genuinely curious. The S-J number
you have mentioned still falls below Pancham's.
Vinay
> - Show quoted text -
Srinivas Ganti
> Let's not talk about personal preferences. That doesn't lead to any
> discussion and certainly cannot produce a conclusive answer. Answer
> Abhijit's question. He has placed a quantifiable (for the most part)
> claim. Can you refute it? Has there been any MD that has produced more
> successful (read popular - whether instantly or over the time)
> soundtracks in any given five-year period?
>
> And let's substantiate success by some data - a Binaca Geetmala entry
> or a sales figure perhaps. In fact, the general lack of this
> information for most soundtracks makes this kind of exercise
> difficult. But let's hope we can agree on the success of a soundtrack.
> And then if we can, let's go one level deeper and do the same exercise
> for the number of successful songs.
Ok. Lets go by Binaca Geet Mala entries. Since they started in 1953,
it eliminates cases like CR who had string of musical jubilees in the
50-54 timeframe.
Kalraji has already pointed out SJ's Geet Mala success in 1959.
59-63 and 60-64 are good contendors.
1959 Anaari
Chhoti Bahen
Kanhaiyaa
Love Marriage
Main Nashe Main Hoon
Shararat
Ujaalaa
1960 College Girl
Dil Apnaa Aur Preet Paraayee (Filmfare Award)
Ek Phool Char Kaante
Jis Desh Mein Gangaa Behti Hai
Gaban
Singapore
1961 Aas Ka Panchhi
Boy Friend
Jab Pyaar Kisi Se Hotaa Hai
Junglee
Karorpati
Roop Ki Raani Choron ka Raaja
Sasuraal
1962 Aashiq
Asli Naqli
Dil Tera Deewaanaa
Haryaali Aur Raastaa
Professor
Rangoli
1963 Dil Ek Mandir
Ek Dil Sau Afsaane
Hamraahi
1964 Apne Hue Paraaye
April Fool
Ayee Milan Ki Bela
Beti Beta
Raajkumaar
Sangam
Zindagi
Binaca Geet Mala's were never RD's stronghold. IIRC during his entire
career he had just one chart topper (dum maro dum), while S-J, L-P
and
K-A had atleast 5 each.
Asif
It takes exciting product, continuous experimentation, and sheer
consistency to keep customers hooked for a long span of time. While
they might have enjoyed other composers' music briefly or even lapped
it up to make it chartbuster, music lovers of Hindi film music of the
decades 1940-1990 consistently showed their genuine craze for only two
composers in their prime: Shankar-Jaikishan and R.D. Burman. Only
these two (three) maestros truly and continuously mesmerized music
lovers with their innovative and thrilling output over a fairly long
time.
Be it Anari (1959), Chhoti Bahen (1959), Ujala (1959), Dil Apna Aur
Preet Parayi (1959), Jis Desh Mein Ganga Behti Hai (1960), Singapore
(1960), Aas Ka Panchhi (1961), Jab Pyar Kisise Hota Hai (1961),
Junglee (1961), Sasural (1961), Aashiq (1962), Professor (1962),
Hariyali Aur Raasta (1962), and Asli Naqli (1962), SJ offered a lot of
variety and verve in his tunes to keep listeners enthralled throughout
the period of 1959-1962. Their critics might cry about excessive
orchestra or too much brass in their music of this period, but they
cannot deny the singular charm of all those albums. SJ were
undisputed kings of craze in this period. They saw a lull in 1963,
but returned to public fascination in 1964-1966 with another string of
hits, like Sangam, April Fool, Aayi Milan Ki Bela, Rajkumar, Beti
Bete, Zindagi, Arzoo, Gumnaam, Jaanwar, Teesri Kasam, Love In Tokyo,
Budtameez, and Gaban. This duo was a class apart no matter how much
other composers, especially Laxmikant-Pyarelal, with their mostly
average albums, might have aped them.
Similarly, R.D. Burman's elegant and energetic songs in films like
Kati Patang (1971), Caravan (1971), Paraya Dhan (1971), Hare Rama Hare
Krishna (1972), Amar Prem (1972), Mere Jeevan Saathi (1972), Jawani
Diwani (1972), Apna Desh (1972), Anamika (1973), Raja Rani (1973),
Jheel Ke Us Paar (1973), Yaadon Ki Baraat (1973), Aap Ki Kasam (1974),
Manoranjan (1974), Ajanbee (1974), Khel Khel Mein (1975), Sholay
(1975), Aandhi (1975), Kala Sona (1975), Dharam Karam (1975), and
Khushboo (1975), gave them a real high. Songs from some of these
films may not have been massive hits, but they surely generated a lot
of hysteria when released.
RDB's detractors would always claim that his fans lived only in
cities, but this is not true. I spent my childhood in a small town
and also frequently visited my family's farm in a remote village, and
folks there were crazy about songs like 'Jis gali mein tera' (Kati
Patang), 'Chadhti jawaani' (Caravan), 'Sun champa sun taara' (Apna
Desh), 'Kajra lagaake' (Apna Desh), 'Dum maaro dum' (Hare Rama Hare
Krishna), 'Jai jai shiv shankar' (Aap Ki Kasam), 'Hum donon do
premi' (Ajanabee), and 'Ik din bik jaayega' (Dharam Karam). I have
also seen in the mid-70s people getting excited on hearing RDB's name
when a radio announcer would present the next song. Their excitement
was a clear testimony to the fact that RDB's music had its own
magnetic style that sustained their unprecedented interest in it at
least through 1971-1975.
This genius of a composer saw another height of such craze in 1977-78
with Hum Kisise Kum Naheen, Kinara, Mukti, Chandi Sona, Bullet,
Kitaab, Ghar, Shalimaar, and Kasme Vaade. But the period of 1971-75
remains his finest and quite a watershed in the history of Hindi film
music.
Although it would be a crime to compare SJ with RDB, in terms of the
length of time period full of creative, crazy, and captivating output,
RDB has no parallel for his work in the time span of 1971-75.
Asif
Arunabha
> "Asif" <alvi.a...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1180488459....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > This foxy, folksy song has always fascinated me with its myriad
> > dimensions, from its unique beat and superb singing to cute lyrics and
> > brilliant choreography on the screen. While Rafi rocks in this song
> > Lata lopes. Together they sizzle. I think those were pretty
> > progressive days, but I would still like to know how conservative
> > folks received this song then. I know the song was a big hit in
> > 1971-72 and still mesmerizes one and all.
>
> > % ITRANS Song #
> > %
> > \startsong
> > \stitle{cha.Dhatii jawaanii merii chaal mastaanii}%
> > \film{Caravan}%
> > \year{1971}%
> > \starring{Jeetendra, Aruna Irani}%
> Nitpicking department: You have not indicated which lines have been sung by who. :-)
I thought this song starred Lata and Rafi.
-- Arunabha
Abhijit
You said it. I had no intention of turning this thread into an era-war
or MD-war. I was simply mesmerised by RDB's (quality) output during
71-75 period and wanted to highlight that. And I am not a city guy
either. ;)
Abhijit
A quiz isii baat par. Name a film where Rafi and Lata appeared on
screen. There could be more, but I definitely know of one.
Abhijit
A quiz isii baat par. Name a film where Rafi and Lata appeared on
Rakesh Sharma
I do know that didi makes an appearance in there, along with some
other biggies from the film industry.
I am guessing this one is it.
Cheers
Rakesh.
Vinay
OK, let's see. First of all, you have included 6 years, we are talking
of 5. Since you mention 59-63, we will leave out 64 from your above
list. I have also noticed that this is a list of *all* S-J scores
during that period, not just the popular ones. Though they may all be
popular, we need to be categorical about that.
> Binaca Geet Mala's were never RD's stronghold. IIRC during his entire
> career he had just one chart topper (dum maro dum), while S-J, L-P
> and
> K-A had atleast 5 each.
Binaca Geetmala lists are not conclusive to prove popularity. I just
mentioned them as *one* of the possible options. They are a good
starting point probably. Besides, BG had its shortcomings and cannot
be the sole criteria for judging popularity. More so because it only
dealt with popularity at *that* point of time (as opposed to gradual
popularity over the years). But let's start with Binaca.
Here's the math:
Shankar-Jaikishan
==============
Out of his movies from 59-63 as mentioned above by you, the following
had one or more songs played in Binaca Vaarshik Geetmala, so let's
include all of them in the popular album category.
Jis Desh me Ganga Behti Hai, Chhoti Bahen, Anari, Ujala, Dil Apna Aur
Preet Parayee, Jab Pyar Kisise Hota Hai, Kanahiya, Singapur, Junglee,
Sasuraal, Aashiq, Professor, Love Marriage, Main Nashe Me Hoon, Ek
phool Char Kaante, Aas Ka Panchhi, Roop Ki Rani Choron Ka Raja, Dil
Tera Diwana, Hariyali Aur Rasta, Dil Ek Mandir, Ek Dil Sau Afsane,
Hamraahi
That's 22 movies. I don't have any idea if the rest were popular too,
either at that moment or even later over the time. I'll take your or
Satish ji's word for that. Here are the rest:
Shararat, College Girl, Gaban, Boy Friend, Karorpati, Asli Naqli,
Rangoli
Even if we count all of these as popular too (either then or now), we
have 29 movies. Your other suggested period 60-64 also has 29 movies
by them in all, so it wouldn't make the score any higher.
Let's come to Mr. Burman junior now.
R D Burman
=========
His albums from between 71-75 that had one or more songs in Binaca
Geetmala: 31
Amar Prem, Caravan, Hare Rama Hare Krishna, Apna Desh, Do Chor,
Warrant, Buddha Mil Gaya, Lakhon Me Ek, Bombay to Goa, Jawani Diwani,
Mere Jeevan Saathi, Parichay, Rampur Ka Lakshman, Seeta Aur Geeta,
Anamika, Do Phool, Heera Panna, Raja Rani, Yaadon Ki Baaraat, Aap Ki
Kasam, Ajnabi, Benaam, Manoranjan, Aandhi, Khushboo, Sholay, Jheel Ke
Us Paar, Namak Haraam, Zehreela Insaan, Dharam Karam, Shehzada
Then there are 13 more albums that I think were or are successful but
were not played in Binaca Vaarshik Geetmala of those times. You are
welcome to object to any of the choices.
Mela, Paraya Dhan, Gomti Ke Kinare, Rakhi Aur Hathkadi, Samadhi, Aa
Gale Lag Jaa, Double Cross, Joshila, Shareef Budmaash, Ishk Ishk Ishk,
Deewar, Kaala Sona, Khel Khel Mein
Popular score tally: 44
I have still left about 20-odd albums out, many of which are my
personal favorites and many of which may be considered successful (I
just don't have data about them).
Adhikar, Hungama, Pyar Ki Kahani, Dil Ka Raja, Garam Masala,
Parchhaiyan, Rani Mera Naam, Sanjog, Savera, Bada Kabutar, Bandhe
Hath, Chhalia, Hifazat, Jaise Ko Taisa, Mr Romeo, Nafrat, 5 Dushman
(Daulat Ke Dushman), Rickshawala, Charitraheen, Dil Diwana, Doosri
Sita, Goonj, Humshakal, Imaan, Khote Sikkay, Madhosh, Phir Kab Milogi,
Shaitaan, Trimurti, Ujala Hi Ujala, Kehtey Hain Mujhko Raja, Mazaaq
So here are the final scores:
Total film albums done during the 5-year review period
======================================================
Shankar-Jaikishan (59-63): 29 movies
R D Burman (71-75): 78 (!) movies
Total popular albums
=====================
S-J: 29 (liberal estimate)
RDB: 44 (stricter estimate)
As you can see, S-J's 59-63 or 60-64 is not even close to RDB's 71-75
either in terms of prolificness or in terms of being successfully
productive. QED.
Next?
Vinay
Asif
Gaban was a 1966 film, so let's exclude it. Based on my own research
and Mr. Bhargava's new book on Binaca Geet Mala, 1 or 2 songs from
Shararat, Krorepati, Asli Naqli, and Rangoli were very popular in
their days. So increase the count to 26 (22 + 4).
>
> Even if we count all of these as popular too (either then or now), we
> have 29 movies. Your other suggested period 60-64 also has 29 movies
> by them in all, so it wouldn't make the score any higher.
>
> Let's come to Mr. Burman junior now.
>
> R D Burman
> =========
> His albums from between 71-75 that had one or more songs in Binaca
> Geetmala: 31
>
> Amar Prem, Caravan, Hare Rama Hare Krishna, Apna Desh, Do Chor,
> Warrant, Buddha Mil Gaya, Lakhon Me Ek, Bombay to Goa, Jawani Diwani,
> Mere Jeevan Saathi, Parichay, Rampur Ka Lakshman, Seeta Aur Geeta,
> Anamika, Do Phool, Heera Panna, Raja Rani, Yaadon Ki Baaraat, Aap Ki
> Kasam, Ajnabi, Benaam, Manoranjan, Aandhi, Khushboo, Sholay, Jheel Ke
> Us Paar, Namak Haraam, Zehreela Insaan, Dharam Karam, Shehzada
>
> Then there are 13 more albums that I think were or are successful but
> were not played in Binaca Vaarshik Geetmala of those times. You are
> welcome to object to any of the choices.
>
> Mela, Paraya Dhan, Gomti Ke Kinare, Rakhi Aur Hathkadi, Samadhi, Aa
> Gale Lag Jaa, Double Cross, Joshila, Shareef Budmaash, Ishk Ishk Ishk,
> Deewar, Kaala Sona, Khel Khel Mein
2 songs from Mela, 1 from Paraya Dhan, 1 from Gomti Ke Kinare, 1 from
Rakhi Aur Hathkadi, 1 from Samadhi, 1 from Aa Gale Lag Jaa, 1 from
Double Cross, 2 from Joshila, 2 from Shareef Budmash, 2 from Ishk Ishk
Ishk, 1 from Deewar, 2 from Kala Sona, and 4 from Khel Khel Mein
became very popular. All of them, but Double Cross and Deewar songs,
made it to weekly BGM at least once. I have originally written notes
(from Maajid Maqbool Bhai) about those songs being popular in those
weeks and "knocking" on BGM door (as announced by Sayani then).
So I guess nobody can "object" to their popularity.
Quiz: Name the songs that became very popular.
>
> Popular score tally: 44
>
> I have still left about 20-odd albums out, many of which are my
> personal favorites and many of which may be considered successful (I
> just don't have data about them).
>
> Adhikar, Hungama, Pyar Ki Kahani, Dil Ka Raja, Garam Masala,
> Parchhaiyan, Rani Mera Naam, Sanjog, Savera, Bada Kabutar, Bandhe
> Hath, Chhalia, Hifazat, Jaise Ko Taisa, Mr Romeo, Nafrat, 5 Dushman
> (Daulat Ke Dushman), Rickshawala, Charitraheen, Dil Diwana, Doosri
> Sita, Goonj, Humshakal, Imaan, Khote Sikkay, Madhosh, Phir Kab Milogi,
> Shaitaan, Trimurti, Ujala Hi Ujala, Kehtey Hain Mujhko Raja, Mazaaq
3 songs from Adhikar, 1 from Pyar Ki Kahani, 1 from Dil Ka Raaja, 2
from Jaise Ko Taisa, 1 from Rickshawala, 1 from Dil Diwana, 2 from
Humshakal, 1 from Imaan, 1 from Madhosh, and 1 from Kehtey Hain Mujhko
Raja became very popular, with all, but Adhikar songs, having made it
to weekly shows of their time - as many as 8 times! The 3 Adhikaar
songs - 'Rekha o rekha', 'Jeena hai to usi ka' (popular qawwali filmed
on Pran), and 'Koi maane ya na maane' - missed out on weekly shows
because of very tough competition in 1971.
So you can count 10 more.
Quiz: Name the songs (other than ones from Adhikar) that became very
popular. :-)
>
> So here are the final scores:
>
> Total film albums done during the 5-year review period
> ======================================================
> Shankar-Jaikishan (59-63): 29 movies
> R D Burman (71-75): 78 (!) movies
>
> Total popular albums
> =====================
> S-J: 29 (liberal estimate)
> RDB: 44 (stricter estimate)
Increase count to 54 (44 + 10) by stricter estimate.
>
> As you can see, S-J's 59-63 or 60-64 is not even close to RDB's 71-75
> either in terms of prolificness or in terms of being successfully
> productive. QED.
>
> Next?
>
> Vinay- Hide quoted text -
Asif
>
> 2 songs from Mela, 1 from Paraya Dhan, 1 from Gomti Ke Kinare, 1 from
> Rakhi Aur Hathkadi, 1 from Samadhi, 1 from Aa Gale Lag Jaa, 1 from
> Double Cross, 2 from Joshila, 2 from Shareef Budmash, 2 from Ishk Ishk
> Ishk, 1 from Deewar, 2 from Kala Sona, and 4 from Khel Khel Mein
> became very popular. All of them, but Double Cross and Deewar songs,
> made it to weekly BGM at least once. I have originally written notes
> (from Maajid Maqbool Bhai) about those songs being popular in those
> weeks and "knocking" on BGM door (as announced by Sayani then).
>
> So I guess nobody can "object" to their popularity.
>
> Quiz: Name the songs that became very popular.
>
Forgot to mention that 'Koi aaya aane bhi do' (Kala Sona) became a
'sartaaj geet' in early 1976, having played about 10 times in 1975.
It was included in 1976 annual show of BGM. 'Khullam khulla' (Khel
Khel Mein) also became a 'sartaaj geet' in 1975, but Ameen Sayani
strangely forgot to include it in 1975 annual show along with a few
other 'sartaaj geets'.
Asif
Satish Kalra
news:1180621601....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Off hand, at least one or more songs did play in the annual BG from Shararat
in 1958 (even though the movie released in 1959 - I am missing my Binaca
Geetmala CD for the year 1958 to confirm the song, "teraa tiir o bepiir dil
ke aarpaar hai....".), Asli Naqli, and Rangoli. In the long run, though,
Rangoli and Asli Naqli albums have been more popular than Shararat, IMO.
Does that mean "Case Closed" or "Open and Shut Case"? Either way, I agree.
:-)
>
> Next?
>
> Vinay
KKKing
the monopoly that LP had created in the late 60s and very early 70s.
However LP did strike back in the late 70s and early 80s - the period
between late 1979 to early 1982 was completely dominated by LP (and
Rafi).
Mr Ganti - when you say that RD never did well in Binaca Geetmala -
that is a falsehood that you have continued to spread on this group.
It is true that RD only had one yearly top song in the history of BGM,
however, " between 1972 and 1985 the competition was fierce between RD
and LP: RD having the most songs on the annual Binaca Geetmala
program
in 1973, 76, 79 and 85; LP having the most number in 1977, 78, 80, 81,
82 and the two of them having the same number in 1972, 74, 75. In this
period in only two years - 1983 and 84 did someone else have the
honor
of the largest number of songs - in both years it was Bappi Lahiri.
" (I quote my own post a couple of months ago)
If we compare the total number of songs that RD and LP had in the
yearly programs between 71 and 85 I think the difference is
approximately +6 for LP - it is very strange to say RD didnt do too
well compared to LP when stats show that they pretty much fared evenly
on average.
Asif
> Mr Ganti - when you say that RD never did well in Binaca Geetmala -
> that is a falsehood that you have continued to spread on this group.
Mr Ganti loves to jump the gun ;-) Proof: scour his posts on RMIM.
Srinivas Ganti
> Mr Ganti loves to jump the gun ;-)
Mr.Alvi loves to stand before the gun and get shot ;)
SJ's figures speak for themselves. Come up with the lists for RD. Case
adjourned for
lack of further evidence !
RD had only one number 1 in the so called 71-75 peak while KA had 2
for starters.
1962
14)Main aashiq huun baharon ka(aashiq huun baharon ka)
Mukesh,Hasrat Jaipuri,S-J
12)o shama mujhe phuuk de(Aashiq)
Lata&Rafi,Shailendra,S-J
10)ibtadaa ishq men ham(Hariyali aur raasta)
Lata&Mukesh,Hasrat Jaipuri,S-J
9)jab pyaar kisi se hota hai(jab pyaar kisi se hota hai)
Lata/Rafi,Hasrat Jaipuri,S-J
7)teri zulfon se judaii(jab pyaar kisi se hota hai)
Rafi,Hasrat Jaipuri,S-J
6)sau saal pahale mujhe tum se pyaar(jab pyaar kisi se hota hai)
Lata&Rafi,Hasrat Jaipuri,S-J
5)kahii diip jale kahin dil me(Bees saal baad)
Lata,Shakil Badayuni,Hemant Kumar
4)chahe koi mujhe junglee kahe(Junglee)
Rafi,Shailendra,S-J
1)ehasaan tera hoga mujhpar(Junglee)
Lata/Rafi,Hasrat Jaipuri,S-J
1961
11)hoton pe sachai rahati hai(Jis desh men ganga behti hai)
Mukesh,Shailendra,S-J
7)ik savaal main karun(Sasural)
Rafi&Lata,Shailendra,S-J
6)dil mera ek aas kaa panchi(aas kaa panchi)
Subir Sen,Hasrat Jaipuri,S-J
4)mera naam raju gharana anaam(Jis desh men ganga behti hai)
Mukesh,Shailendra,S-J
3)ho maine pyaar kiyaa(Jis desh men ganga bahti hai)
Lata&chorus,Hasrat Jaipuri,S-J
1)teri pyaari pyaari suurat ko(Sasural)
Rafi,Hasrat Jaipuri,S-J
KKKing
anpadh, #5 was chahe koi mujhe junglee. Bees saal baad (hemant kumar
not sj - so i dont know what it is doing here?) was #6, etc.
By the way - I was talking about the total number of songs appearing
on the annual programs - not just the #1 annual song. Going by the
number one annual song only is kinda idiotic !! It would imply that
Rajesh Roshan, Bappi Lahiri, Khayyam, Usha Khanna and RD are equally
popular , while Ravindra Jain and Nadeem Shravan were more popular
than RD or any of the above!!! (As I said - kinda idiotic)
Maybe Mr Ganti needs to buy the new book Binaca Geetmala ka Sureela
Safar and check out all the lists himself.
Asif
>
> Forgot to mention that 'Koi aaya aane bhi do' (Kala Sona) became a
> 'sartaaj geet' in early 1976, having played about 10 times in 1975.
> It was included in 1976 annual show of BGM. 'Khullam khulla' (Khel
> Khel Mein) also became a 'sartaaj geet' in 1975, but Ameen Sayani
> strangely forgot to include it in 1975 annual show along with a few
> other 'sartaaj geets'.
>
> Asif
Also forgot to mention that Vinay, you can also count Khalifa in
1975. Two songs 'Dil machal raha hai' and 'Tak dhin tak' from this
film featured about 6-7 times in weekly BGM shows in 1975. The film
was released in early 1976 though.
Asif
Satish Kalra
Playing the devil's advocate and adding fuel to the flames, the only song in
the history of Binaca Geet Mala to enter at the No. 2 spot was New Delhi's
"nakhrewaalii". {This from my own meories, not any book.}
Abhijit
You got it. Ironically, screen appearance is the only way she featured
in this movie full of melodious songs. The movie falls in Lata-SDB '36-
kaa-aa.nka.Daa' period.
Abhijit
Let me test my memory:
1 from Paraya Dhan: "aaj unase pahalii mulaaqaat hogii" (and what
about the melodious "dil haay meraa dil"?)
1 from Gomti Ke Kinare: "jiine kaa din mar jaane kaa mausam"
1 from Rakhi Aur Hathkadi: "achchhii nahii.n sanam dillagii" (what a
song!)
1 from Samadhi: "ba.ngale ke piichhe... kaa.NTaa lagaa" (what about
"jab tak rahe tan me.n jiyaa"?)
1 from Aa Gale Lag Jaa: "teraa mujhase hai pahale kaa naataa" (What?
Only 1? What about "vaadaa karo nahii.n chho.Dogii", "naa koii dil
me.n samaayaa", "ai mere beTe"?)
2 from Joshila: obviously "kisakaa rastaa dekhe" (the other one
escapes me)
2 from Shareef Budmash: "nii.nd churaake raato.n me.n"; "tere sau
diiwaane"
1 from Deewar: "kah duu.n tumhe.n yaa chup rahuu.n"
2 from Kala Sona: "koii aayaa aane bhii de" (other one escapes me)
4 from Khel Khel Mein: "ek mai.n aur ek tuu"; "khullam khulla pyaar
kare.nge"; "hamane tumako dekhaa"; ummmm.... oh yes "sapanaa meraa
TuuT gayaa"
That's enough stress on my poor memory for the day.
Abhijit
Abhay Jain
"Satish Kalra" <Satish...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:zu6dnVKzjao7osLb...@comcast.com...
>
> Playing the devil's advocate and adding fuel to the flames, the only song
> in the history of Binaca Geet Mala to enter at the No. 2 spot was New
> Delhi's "nakhrewaalii". {This from my own meories, not any book.}
>
>
> --
> Happy Listenings.
>
> Satish Kalra
>
On a similar note, as far as I remember, only song
to enter no 1 spot in Binaca was "Naina barse RimJhim".
AJ
Sukesh
no 2 was 'yeh meraa prem patra padhkar' from Sangam. It could have entered
at no 1, but I am not sure.
Regards
Sukesh
Sukesh
contend with other master-composers - Madan Mohan, O P Nayyar, Naushad
Ali, S D Burman, Salil Chowdhury and others. That was the real 'Derby'.
A better benchmark would be the percentage of songs composed during the
periods in question that became 'hits' or whatever.
Regards
Sukesh
Sukesh
also entered BGM somewhere between 3rd and 5th rank in the same
programme.
Again, IMMSMR, 'abhi naa jaao chhodkar' from Hum Dono probably made its
entry in BGM within top 5.
Regards
Sukesh
Asif
> 2 songs from Mela, 1 from Paraya Dhan, 1 from Gomti Ke Kinare, 1 from
> Rakhi Aur Hathkadi, 1 from Samadhi, 1 from Aa Gale Lag Jaa, 1 from
> Double Cross, 2 from Joshila, 2 from Shareef Budmash, 2 from Ishk Ishk
> Ishk, 1 from Deewar, 2 from Kala Sona, and 4 from Khel Khel Mein
> became very popular. All of them, but Double Cross and Deewar songs,
> made it to weekly BGM at least once. I have originally written notes
> (from Maajid Maqbool Bhai) about those songs being popular in those
> weeks and "knocking" on BGM door (as announced by Sayani then).
>
I looked at my weekly lists again this morning. Here are the
corrections:
3 songs from Mela, 4 from Paraya Dhan, 2 from Aa Gale Lag Jaa, 2 from
Double Cross, 3 from Joshila, and 3 from Shareef Budmash either
featured in weekly shows or mentioned by Ameen Sayani as "knocking on
the door."
Vinay, you forgot to mention Saas Bhi Kabhi Bahu Thi (1971). 3 songs
from this film made it to weekly shows.
> > Popular score tally: 44
45 (add Saas Bhi Kabhi Bahu Thi)
> 3 songs from Adhikar, 1 from Pyar Ki Kahani, 1 from Dil Ka Raaja, 2
> from Jaise Ko Taisa, 1 from Rickshawala, 1 from Dil Diwana, 2 from
> Humshakal, 1 from Imaan, 1 from Madhosh, and 1 from Kehtey Hain Mujhko
> Raja became very popular, with all, but Adhikar songs, having made it
> to weekly shows of their time - as many as 8 times! The 3 Adhikaar
> songs - 'Rekha o rekha', 'Jeena hai to usi ka' (popular qawwali filmed
> on Pran), and 'Koi maane ya na maane' - missed out on weekly shows
> because of very tough competition in 1971.
>
Correction: 'Koi maane ya na maane' did feature 2 times in weekly
show. Sayani mentioned 'Rekha o rekha' as "knocking on the door".
Asif
Asif
Asif
> > Quiz: Name the songs that became very popular.
>
> Let me test my memory:
>
> 1 from Paraya Dhan: "aaj unase pahalii mulaaqaat hogii" (and what
> about the melodious "dil haay meraa dil"?)
Actually, 4 of them made it to weekly shows (see my correction in
another post on this thread).
Yes, 'Aaj unse pehli mulaaqaat hogi' was most popular of them all.
Others: 'Too pyaar too preet', 'Dil haay mera dil', and 'Aao jhoomen
gaayen'. 4 hit songs from this film, and most RDB fans stil think
Paraya Dhan was a flop album!
>
> 1 from Gomti Ke Kinare: "jiine kaa din mar jaane kaa mausam"
Correct. However, I would rather take 'Aao aao jaan-e-jahaan' any
day!
>
> 1 from Rakhi Aur Hathkadi: "achchhii nahii.n sanam dillagii" (what a
> song!)
Correct. Yep, fabulous song!
>
> 1 from Samadhi: "ba.ngale ke piichhe... kaa.NTaa lagaa" (what about
> "jab tak rahe tan me.n jiyaa"?)
Not sure, I have to check my lists.
>
> 1 from Aa Gale Lag Jaa: "teraa mujhase hai pahale kaa naataa" (What?
> Only 1? What about "vaadaa karo nahii.n chho.Dogii", "naa koii dil
> me.n samaayaa", "ai mere beTe"?)
Actually there were 2: 'Tera mujhse hai' and 'Ai mere bete'. 'Waada
karo' for all its grandeur was not a hit song then.
>
> 2 from Joshila: obviously "kisakaa rastaa dekhe" (the other one
> escapes me)
Actually, there were 3: 'Kiska rasta', 'Dil mein jo baaten hain' (most
popular of them all), and 'Kuchh bhi kar lo'.
>
> 2 from Shareef Budmash: "nii.nd churaake raato.n me.n"; "tere sau
> diiwaane"
'Neend churaake' (most popular of them all) and 'Na khidki na
jharonkha'. 'Tere sau deewaane' did not make it, but it was a hit
among my older brothers :-)
>
> 1 from Deewar: "kah duu.n tumhe.n yaa chup rahuu.n"
Correct.
>
> 2 from Kala Sona: "koii aayaa aane bhii de" (other one escapes me)
The other one: 'Sun sun qasam se'.
>
> 4 from Khel Khel Mein: "ek mai.n aur ek tuu"; "khullam khulla pyaar
> kare.nge"; "hamane tumako dekhaa"; ummmm.... oh yes "sapanaa meraa
> TuuT gayaa"
All correct. 'Khullam khulla' was most popular of them all.
>
> That's enough stress on my poor memory for the day.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
There was another quiz (in the same post of mine) for other albums.
Try that too :-)
Asif
Asif
Madan Mohan and Salil Chowdhary? Music lovers were crazy about their
songs?? You think so? O.P. Nayyar had a very low profile in the
entire 1959-63 period when SJ ruled he roost and the one we are
talking about. Name a second OPN hit besides Ek Musafir Ek Haseena
(1961).
Much though I respect and admire SDB, I think he sustained his charm
over music lovers for a long period only once (1955-60). He had
mostly short bursts of glory and popularity - I can count 1951-53,
1965-67, 1970-71, and then 1972-73. In 1959-63 period (the in
question) he had only Sujata, Manzil, Kala Bazaar, Baat Ek Raat Ki,
Bandini, and Tere Ghar Ke Saamne to his hit credit - hardly a
competition to SJ's rule! You can count Chalti Ka Naam Gaadi (1958)
too if you want.
That leaves only Naushad in the fray. True, he had his own fan
following, but he never was a challenge to SJ, definitely not in
1959-63, when he had only Kohinoor, Mughal-E-Azam, Ganga Jumna, Son Of
India, and Mere Mehboob - all big, big hits - but only 5 if you count.
If SJ faced any sort of competition (if you really care), it was from
Ravi. But Ravi was merely a bunny in the face of the craze SJ
unleashed in 1959-63. I really do not think SJ had any competiton in
that period, not because others were not doing any good work, but
because SJ were simply the best then.
In contrast, RDB had competition not only from LP, but also from his
dad (Sharmilee, Tere Mere Sapne, Gambler, Naya Zamana, Jugnu, Yeh
Gulishtaan Hamaara, Anuraag, Abhimaan, Prem Nagar, Mili) and KA. Do
not forget KA - they were very popular and consistent too in 1971-75.
Asif
Asif
>
> Much though I respect and admire SDB, I think he sustained his charm
> over music lovers for a long period only once (1955-60). He had
> mostly short bursts of glory and popularity - I can count 1951-53,
> 1965-67, 1970-71, and then 1972-73. In 1959-63 period (the in
Correction: Let me make it 'twice' - besides 1955-60, he had another
spell in 1969-73.
Asif
Rakesh Sharma
Popularity and glory and what not may go to hell, but i think SD was
the most consistent in terms of giving us good music, irrespective of
whether or not the public at the time lapped it up.
I cannot personally rule out any piece of music with his name written
on it as sub-standard. And that continues right up till Chupke Chupke.
Cheers
Rakesh.
Sukesh
run. They ruled the roost because, as you mentioned, they were simply the
best. (They even had to compete even with RDB's Chhote Nawab).
Just have look at a partial list of films with very good music for 1959
and 1960. One can add more for 1961-63 and one can appreciate the
competition then.
http://www.talkaboutthemusic.com/group/rec.music.indian.misc/messages/150478.html
Regards
Sukesh
Abhay Jain
Interestiung that RDB shined when there was competetion till 75.
After that - yet another MD. Of course he produced one of hs
best in his lat - 1942 A Love Story.
AJ
Abhijit
I would not go to the extent of saying that SDB didn't create any
crap. But I second your opinion that he was the most consistent among
big MDs in terms of producing quality songs over the entire career.
Asif
>
> Interestiung that RDB shined when there was competetion till 75.
> After that - yet another MD. Of course he produced one of hs
> best in his lat - 1942 A Love Story.
>
> AJ
He shone in other years too, notably 1977-79 and 1981-85. By the way,
1942 A Love Story was not even among his top 30 albums. I rate it as
a very ordinary album and nowhere close to, say, a Adhikaar (1971) or
a Chhalia (1973). The reason why it is among the favorites of today's
generation of music lovers and why it grabbed the headlines when it
was released is: it was frankly a far superior score compared to the
trash churned out by others then, and the young generation, who never
heard anything like that before, found it refreshing. I am not
complaining though.
Asif
Srinivas Ganti
>
> > One point to note that RDB was in two 'horse' race with LP. S-J had to
> > contend with other master-composers - Madan Mohan, O P Nayyar, Naushad
> > Ali, S D Burman, Salil Chowdhury and others. That was the real 'Derby'.
Lets not forget Roshan here.
janaab roshan ko unniis sau saath ke dashak men kaafi maqbuuliyat
haasil huii thii.
ye silsilaa shuruu huaa thaa "barsaat ki raat se".
He had some of the biggest musical hits in the 61-64 timeframe
with Barsaat Ki Raat, Taj Mahal, Chitralekha, Aarti, Dil Hi To Hai.
Barsaat Ki Raat and Taj Mahal produced the number one song of the year
to say nothing of the impact of the qawwalis.
Srinivas Ganti
> not forget KA - they were very popular and consistent too in 1971-75.
KA's reign started much earlier. Infact they had 5 of the top 15 songs
in 1965
including the top 2 !
Sukesh
Agreed. He will always be remembered for the qawwali from Barsaat Ki
Raat - 'naa to kaarwaa_n ki talaash hai'.
Regards
Sukesh
Asif
> > 1 from Samadhi: "ba.ngale ke piichhe... kaa.NTaa lagaa" (what about
> > "jab tak rahe tan me.n jiyaa"?)
>
> Not sure, I have to check my lists.
That was 'Maine dekha ik sapna' - only once in weekly shows. No other
song from this film made it to the weekly shows.
> > 2 from Shareef Budmash: "nii.nd churaake raato.n me.n"; "tere sau
> > diiwaane"
>
> 'Neend churaake' (most popular of them all) and 'Na khidki na
> jharonkha'. 'Tere sau deewaane' did not make it, but it was a hit
> among my older brothers :-)
Correction: 'Tere sau deewaane' did feature once in weekly show.
Asif
Tushar Samant
1. Who is/are the MD, Kalyanji Anandji or Kalyanji Virji?
2. I feel awful asking, but given the KA context--is this
known to be "stolen"?
Srinivas Ganti
> Could someone answer these two questions about niind na mujhako aaye:
>
> 1. Who is/are the MD, Kalyanji Anandji or Kalyanji Virji?
Kalyanji's full name was Kalyanji Virji Shah. He used to compose solo
under that name before his brother Aanadji joined him. Kalyanji was
the only composer for "niind na mujhko aaye"
Surjit Singh
Tushar Samant wrote:
> Could someone answer these two questions about niind na mujhako aaye:
>
> 1. Who is/are the MD, Kalyanji Anandji or Kalyanji Virji?
are bhai logo, at least try to look in the standard places before asking?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalyanji_Anandji
Tushar Samant
> Tushar Samant wrote:
>
>> Could someone answer these two questions about niind na mujhako aaye:
>>
>> 1. Who is/are the MD, Kalyanji Anandji or Kalyanji Virji?
>
> are bhai logo, at least try to look in the standard places before asking?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalyanji_Anandji
I don't see an answer to my question on this page. Besides,
take a look at this:
http://www.musicindiaonline.com/p/x/QVymY6mlvd.As1NMvHdW/
I don't expect accurate information from Music India but it's
enough to sow some doubt.
(Not unlike a Wikipedia page that refers to "the hamlet of
Girgaum, a district in Mumbai" ...)
Gurcharan S Sandhu
Gurcharan
On Jun 4, 5:41?pm, Tushar Samant <scrib...@pobox.com> wrote:
Tushar Samant
skalr...@yahoo.com
> "Vinay" <v9y....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:1180621601....@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 30, 12:13 pm, Srinivas Ganti <sga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On May 30, 10:16 am, Vinay <v9y....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > Let's not talk about personal preferences. That doesn't lead to any
> >> > discussion and certainly cannot produce a conclusive answer. Answer
> >> > Abhijit's question. He has placed a quantifiable (for the most part)
> >> > claim. Can you refute it? Has there been any MD that has produced more
> >> > successful (read popular - whether instantly or over the time)
> >> > soundtracks in any given five-year period?
>
> >> > And let's substantiate success by some data - a Binaca Geetmala entry
> >> > or a sales figure perhaps. In fact, the general lack of this
> >> > information for most soundtracks makes this kind of exercise
> >> > difficult. But let's hope we can agree on the success of a soundtrack.
> >> > And then if we can, let's go one level deeper and do the same exercise
> >> > for the number of successful songs.
>
> >> Ok. Lets go by Binaca Geet Mala entries. Since they started in 1953,
> >> it eliminates cases like CR who had string of musical jubilees in the
> >> 50-54 timeframe.
>
> >> Kalraji has already pointed out SJ's Geet Mala success in 1959.
>
> >> 59-63 and 60-64 are good contendors.
>
> >> 1959 Anaari
> >> Chhoti Bahen
> >> Kanhaiyaa
> >> Love Marriage
> >> Main Nashe Main Hoon
> >> Shararat
> >> Ujaalaa
> >> 1960 College Girl
> >> Dil Apnaa Aur Preet Paraayee (Filmfare Award)
> >> Ek Phool Char Kaante
> >> Jis Desh Mein Gangaa Behti Hai
> >> Gaban
> >> Singapore
> >> 1961 Aas Ka Panchhi
> >> Boy Friend
> >> Jab Pyaar Kisi Se Hotaa Hai
> >> Junglee
> >> Karorpati
> >> Roop Ki Raani Choron ka Raaja
> >> Sasuraal
> >> 1962 Aashiq
> >> Asli Naqli
> >> Dil Tera Deewaanaa
> >> Haryaali Aur Raastaa
> >> Professor
> >> Rangoli
> >> 1963 Dil Ek Mandir
> >> Ek Dil Sau Afsaane
> >> Hamraahi
> >> 1964 Apne Hue Paraaye
> >> April Fool
> >> Ayee Milan Ki Bela
> >> Beti Beta
> >> Raajkumaar
> >> Sangam
> >> Zindagi
> in 1958 (even though the movie released in 1959 - I am missing my Binaca
> Geetmala CD for the year 1958 to confirm the song, "teraa tiir o bepiir dil
> ke aarpaar hai....".), Asli Naqli, and Rangoli. In the long run, though,
> Rangoli and Asli Naqli albums have been more popular than Shararat, IMO.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Even if we count all of these as popular too (either then or now), we
> > have 29 movies. Your other suggested period 60-64 also has 29 movies
> > by them in all, so it wouldn't make the score any higher.
>
> > Let's come to Mr. Burman junior now.
>
> > R D Burman
> > =========
> > His albums from between 71-75 that had one or more songs in Binaca
> > Geetmala: 31
>
> > Amar Prem, Caravan, Hare Rama Hare Krishna, Apna Desh, Do Chor,
> > Warrant, Buddha Mil Gaya, Lakhon Me Ek, Bombay to Goa, Jawani Diwani,
> > Mere Jeevan Saathi, Parichay, Rampur Ka Lakshman, Seeta Aur Geeta,
> > Anamika, Do Phool, Heera Panna, Raja Rani, Yaadon Ki Baaraat, Aap Ki
> > Kasam, Ajnabi, Benaam, Manoranjan, Aandhi, Khushboo, Sholay, Jheel Ke
> > Us Paar, Namak Haraam, Zehreela Insaan, Dharam Karam, Shehzada
>
> > Then there are 13 more albums that I think were or are successful but
> > were not played in Binaca Vaarshik Geetmala of those times. You are
> > welcome to object to any of the choices.
>
> > Mela, Paraya Dhan, Gomti Ke Kinare, Rakhi Aur Hathkadi, Samadhi, Aa
> > Gale Lag Jaa, Double Cross, Joshila, Shareef Budmaash, Ishk Ishk Ishk,
> > Deewar, Kaala Sona, Khel Khel Mein
>
>
> > I have still left about 20-odd albums out, many of which are my
> > personal favorites and many of which may be considered successful (I
> > just don't have data about them).
>
> > Adhikar, Hungama, Pyar Ki Kahani, Dil Ka Raja, Garam Masala,
> > Parchhaiyan, Rani Mera Naam, Sanjog, Savera, Bada Kabutar, Bandhe
> > Hath, Chhalia, Hifazat, Jaise Ko Taisa, Mr Romeo, Nafrat, 5 Dushman
> > (Daulat Ke Dushman), Rickshawala, Charitraheen, Dil Diwana, Doosri
> > Sita, Goonj, Humshakal, Imaan, Khote Sikkay, Madhosh, Phir Kab Milogi,
> > Shaitaan, Trimurti, Ujala Hi Ujala, Kehtey Hain Mujhko Raja, Mazaaq
>
> > So here are the final scores:
>
> > Total film albums done during the 5-year review period
> > ======================================================
> > Shankar-Jaikishan (59-63): 29 movies
> > R D Burman (71-75): 78 (!) movies
>
> > Total popular albums
> > =====================
> > S-J: 29 (liberal estimate)
> > RDB: 44 (stricter estimate)
>
> > As you can see, S-J's 59-63 or 60-64 is not even close to RDB's 71-75
> > either in terms of prolificness or in terms of being successfully
> > productive. QED.
>
> Does that mean "Case Closed" or "Open and Shut Case"? Either way, I agree.
> :-)
>
>
>
> > Next?
>
> > Vinay
>
> --
> Happy Listenings.
>
> Satish Kalra- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Following up on my above post: Shararat's "teraa tiir o bepiir..."
played at No. 6 (out of 30) in the 1958 annual Binaca, while "bol rii
kathputali dorii..." was No. 3.
Interestingly, Madhumati's "aajaa re pardesii..." was at No. 28, and
"suhaanaa safar..." at No. 5.
Happy Listenings.
Satish Kalra
Asif
>
> Following up on my above post: Shararat's "teraa tiir o bepiir..."
> played at No. 6 (out of 30) in the 1958 annual Binaca, while "bol rii
> kathputali dorii..." was No. 3.
>
> Interestingly, Madhumati's "aajaa re pardesii..." was at No. 28, and
> "suhaanaa safar..." at No. 5.
>
> Happy Listenings.
>
>
About 'Aaja re pardesi' getting such a low rating, Ameen Sayani says
that in those days if a song entered Binaca Geetmala weekly show in
one year, it would be retired at the end of that year no matter what -
if it continued to play until the end of the year. This song made a
late entry into weekly shows because it was not popular when the film
was released and not as much as 'Suhaana safar' (Can you confirm
this?). So it ended up at rating 28 and then was retired; otherwise,
he says, "it would have featured at a much higher rating in 1959." He
said the same thing about 'Manzil wohi hai pyaar ki' (Kathputli,
1958), and that broke my heart. I really love this Subir Sen solo -
very sweet and very haunting - and would have loved to see it among
top 5 in 1958 or 1959.
Asif
Abhijit
> On Jun 5, 2:17 pm, skalra0...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > Following up on my above post: Shararat's "teraa tiir o bepiir..."
> > played at No. 6 (out of 30) in the 1958 annual Binaca, while "bol rii
> > kathputali dorii..." was No. 3.
>
> > Interestingly, Madhumati's "aajaa re pardesii..." was at No. 28, and
> > "suhaanaa safar..." at No. 5.
>
> > Happy Listenings.
>
> > Satish Kalra- Hide quoted text -
>
> About 'Aaja re pardesi' getting such a low rating, Ameen Sayani says
> that in those days if a song entered Binaca Geetmala weekly show in
> one year, it would be retired at the end of that year no matter what -
> if it continued to play until the end of the year. This song made a
> late entry into weekly shows because it was not popular when the film
> was released and not as much as 'Suhaana safar' (Can you confirm
> this?). So it ended up at rating 28 and then was retired; otherwise,
> he says, "it would have featured at a much higher rating in 1959."
Well, that's why I don't like rating based on BGM. It doesn't reflect
true long-term popularity in many cases. For example, in 1972 Rampur
Ka Laxman was represented by 'raamapur kaa baasii huu.n mai.n',
whereas the song that kept playing on radio in following years was
'gum hai kisii ke pyaar me.n'. So in my view, the latter is more
popular.
> He
> said the same thing about 'Manzil wohi hai pyaar ki' (Kathputli,
> 1958), and that broke my heart. I really love this Subir Sen solo -
> very sweet and very haunting - and would have loved to see it among
> top 5 in 1958 or 1959.
>
How I wish I had more Subir Sen songs in Hindi. I heard he lost favour
because of his Hindi rendition which used to frustrate MDs. But o boy,
what a voice he had. Heck, he didn't even satisfy me with enough
Bengali songs where he shouldn't have had any rendition issues.
Whatever little of Subir Sen I have, I never get bored playing them
over and over again.
Satish Kalra
I have said this in the past, and I say it again - Mr. Sayani has a
selective memory, or perhaps, a selective memory loss, like making "jaayen
to jaayen kahaan..." the No. 1 song for 1954, whena ctually it was "man dole
mera tan dole...".
In fact, in those days, and I am talking about the years prior to 1965-1966
(when the Sartaj Geet format was adopted along with "inputs" from music
directors as to which song should be included as a popular number for the
weekly charts, and what else not), there was no restriction on a song being
played in more than a year, if that song was popular according to the record
sales and listeners' farmaaishes, the two critera in place then. Even in
1959, there were songs in the annual Binaca from films of 1958, such as
Madhumati's "chadh gayo paapii bichhuaa, at No. 16 out of 20; Mr. Qartoon
M.A.'s "main main main qartoon (at No. 15/20); Amar Deep's "dekh hamein
aawaaz na denaa..." (at No. 10/20); and Kala Pani's "ham bekhudi mein tum ko
pukaare chale gaye" (at No. 4/20).
Yes, "suhaanaa safar..." was more popular in the beginning when the film was
released (I am sure most veteran RMIMers would recall my story about my
brother playing that song throughout the night with the result that the
track got flattened and would not play at all the next morning). Yes, the
film's music was released quite late in the year, perhaps in late Sept. or
early Oct. 1958. AFAICR, "suhaanaa safar..." with "dil tadap tadap ke kah
rahaa hai..." on the flip side was the first 78 rpm record released. But,
Mr. Qartoon M.A.'s music was also released around the same time, and one of
its songs making it to the 1959 annual BGM hit parade as compared to "aajaa
re pardesii..." not making it does not make any sense - at least from the
point of view of the argument you put forward attributed to Mr. Sayani.
That is why I maintain that Mr. Sayani has a selective memory (or loss
thereof). {My efforts to engage him in a discussion on some BGM issues have
been unsuccessful.}
--
Happy Listenings.
Satish Kalra
Satish Kalra
news:1181082579.1...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
If you go by HMV/SaReGaMa, his name is Subir Jain :-), as printed on the
covers of the CD combo Boy friend/Vallah Kya Baat Hai (with due credits to
Mr. Narsingh Avnish).
Sunil Dandekar
>
> Vinay- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I try AFAP avoid posting in the threads discussing comparisons of
different musical personality as in spite of best attempts to be
objective, the personal preferences do play a large role in the
discussions. However this thread was somewhat of irresistible for me.
I would like to bring to your attention few things that I think are
relevant to the discussion.
1) I agree with you that using BGM as a popularity barometer may not
be a sound idea as it is like using WWF to decide the best wrestler in
the world. Perhaps the most objective measure would be proportion of
the total albums sold for the given music director in the given
period. No of SJ albums sold in 60-64/total albums sold in 60-64 vs
No of RDB albums sold in 71-75 /total albums sold in 71-75. That
would eliminate to a large extent the generation preference bias as
well as differences caused by the improving purchasing power of
consumers. Difficult to compute, I agree. Another way would be the
proportion of songs being played in different 'Farmaish' programs on
VB.
2) SJ's songs often competed between themselves. In majority of SJ
films, almost all songs were equally popular. Obviously all of them
would not find place in BGM. Barring few exceptions like Teesari
Manzil I do not think RDB had many such films. Many of his films were
single song wonders like Gomati ke Kinare, Jaise ko Taisa. Many from
your list of 20 albums that were left out were IMHO even worse than SJ
in Vachan, International crook, Elaan etc.
3) Look at the competition SJ had. Almost the who's who of HFM. SJ
songs had to fight with songs from these stalwarts to get the share of
the popularity pie. RDB happened to be prolific when all the big names
were waning. Even LP/KA had their best years behind them. Bappi Lahiri
was perhaps the only MD of some quality to give resemblance of a
fight. (How times change! I liked very few of his songs when they
first assaulted my ears. In the recent episode of Mahayudh, my ears,
dumbed down by almost 2 decades of mediocre music, responded very
favourably to Bappida's tunes.)
4) SJ were perhaps the only MD who were capable of selling a film on
their own name. Even at the prime of his ascendancy RDB's music was a
big plus to any film but he was never sellable on its own.
5) Anecdotal evidence: I have witnessed the unparalleled frenzy that
SJ's music generated. In the low end cinema halls in Pune and Solapur,
the people in the lower stalls used to throw coins at the screen to
show their appreciation of music. I frequented those halls for matinee
because that way my pocket money stretched quite far in my college
days. There were many films of SJ that triggered this orgy of coin
throwing. I particularly remember an occasion when I watched Junglee
in Alpana in Pune. Din saara gujara tere angana was greeted with a
huge shower of coins and then with every antara, on the leading line
to the mukhada the sound of whistles and the tinkle of coins would
almost drown the song. I have not seen such spontaneous outburst of
appreciation for any other MD's films. Including films like Parasmani,
Saavan Bhado etc that are known to have been irresistible to masses
for their music.
6) Another subjective opinion without any claim to universal
acceptance. SJ's music was loved by people of all the generations in
their own time. A college going son and his father/mother would both
appreciate SJ's songs. RDB used to appeal only to the collegians in
his days. Many of the RDB's songs became popular later as they sounded
better after the 80's 90's exacted their toll.
7) SJ could handle all genres of HFM with equal élan, classical,
western, folk, ballads, country, pop, cabarets. RDB was very good at
catering to the urban tastes. SJ has(d) a following in all classes
with their varied preferences while RDB was popular in niche
markets.
I like RDB's music a lot, but I do believe a wide gulf separates RDB
and SJ both in terms of song quality and popularity.
regards,
Sunil
KKKing
I do believe from all sources that I have the 1959 program had 28
paydaans and 32 songs with paydaan # 27, 20, 17 and 12 having 2 songs
each with equal points: chadh gayo papi bichua was at #26 with 99
points, main main main kartoon was at #27 with 87 points, dekh humen
awaaz na dena was #12 with 176 points, hum bekhudi mein was #5 with
217 points: it is possible that all these songs started playing in
1959 even though they were 1958 films given the rules in place then.
If you are really going to quote BGM playlists at least please make
sure that you are quoting them correctly. It doesnt serve anyone any
good to have senior RMIM members giving us stuff that is incorrect - I
am not sure where that 20 song list is coming from!! From 1957 onwards
BGM annual programs have been divided into 2 programs - with a total
of approximately 32 songs (until the late 80s when it became 22 songs)
- the numbers have varied between 30 and 42.
There is a book out with all the lists!!
, On Jun 5, 10:58 pm, "Satish Kalra" <Satish.Ka...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Asif" <alvi.a...@gmail.com> wrote in message
KKKing
RDs peak productive capacity came in the period 1971-77 with a second
(less popular) wave in 81-83 and 85. I'm not sure how LP and KA were
past their prime in 71-77. That statement just befuddles my mind !!!
> 7) SJ could ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Vinay
>
> > On May 30, 12:13 pm, Srinivas Ganti <sga...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 30, 10:16 am, Vinay <v9y....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Let's not talk about personal preferences. That doesn't lead to any
> > > > discussion and certainly cannot produce a conclusive answer. Answer
> > > > Abhijit's question. He has placed a quantifiable (for the most part)
> > > > claim. Can you refute it? Has there been any MD that has produced more
> > > > successful (read popular - whether instantly or over the time)
> > > > soundtracks in any given five-year period?
>
> > > > And let's substantiate success by some data - a Binaca Geetmala entry
> > > > or a sales figure perhaps. In fact, the general lack of this
> > > > information for most soundtracks makes this kind of exercise
> > > > difficult. But let's hope we can agree on the success of a soundtrack.
> > > > And then if we can, let's go one level deeper and do the same exercise
> > > > for the number of successful songs.
>
> > > Ok. Lets go by Binaca Geet Mala entries. Since they started in 1953,
> > > it eliminates cases like CR who had string of musical jubilees in the
> > > 50-54 timeframe.
>
> > > Kalraji has already pointed out SJ's Geet Mala success in 1959.
>
> > > 59-63 and 60-64 are good contendors.
>
>
> > OK, let's see. First of all, you have included 6 years, we are talking
> > of 5. Since you mention 59-63, we will leave out 64 from your above
> > list. I have also noticed that this is a list of *all* S-J scores
> > during that period, not just the popular ones. Though they may all be
> > popular, we need to be categorical about that.
>
> > > Binaca Geet Mala's were never RD's stronghold. IIRC during his entire
> > > career he had just one chart topper (dum maro dum), while S-J, L-P
> > > and
> > > K-A had atleast 5 each.
>
> > Binaca Geetmala lists are not conclusive to prove popularity. I just
> > mentioned them as *one* of the possible options. They are a good
> > starting point probably. Besides, BG had its shortcomings and cannot
> > be the sole criteria for judging popularity. More so because it only
> > dealt with popularity at *that* point of time (as opposed to gradual
> > popularity over the years). But let's start with Binaca.
>
> > Here's the math:
>
> > Shankar-Jaikishan
> > ==============
> > Out of his movies from 59-63 as mentioned above by you, the following
> > had one or more songs played in Binaca Vaarshik Geetmala, so let's
> > include all of them in the popular album category.
>
>
> > That's 22 movies. I don't have any idea if the rest were popular too,
> > either at that moment or even later over the time. I'll take your or
> > Satish ji's word for that. Here are the rest:
>
> > Shararat, College Girl, Gaban, Boy Friend, Karorpati, Asli Naqli,
> > Rangoli
>
> > Even if we count all of these as popular too (either then or now), we
> > have 29 movies. Your other suggested period 60-64 also has 29 movies
> > by them in all, so it wouldn't make the score any higher.
>
> > Let's come to Mr. Burman junior now.
>
> > R D Burman
> > =========
> > His albums from between 71-75 that had one or more songs in Binaca
> > Geetmala: 31
>
>
> > Then there are 13 more albums that I think were or are successful but
> > were not played in Binaca Vaarshik Geetmala of those times. You are
> > welcome to object to any of the choices.
>
> > Mela, Paraya Dhan, Gomti Ke Kinare, Rakhi Aur Hathkadi, Samadhi, Aa
> > Gale Lag Jaa, Double Cross, Joshila, Shareef Budmaash, Ishk Ishk Ishk,
> > Deewar, Kaala Sona, Khel Khel Mein
>
> > Popular score tally: 44
>
> > I have still left about 20-odd albums out, many of which are my
> > personal favorites and many of which may be considered successful (I
> > just don't have data about them).
>
>
> > So here are the final scores:
>
> > Total film albums done during the 5-year review period
> > ======================================================
> > Shankar-Jaikishan (59-63): 29 movies
> > R D Burman (71-75): 78 (!) movies
>
> > Total popular albums
> > =====================
> > S-J: 29 (liberal estimate)
> > RDB: 44 (stricter estimate)
>
> > As you can see, S-J's 59-63 or 60-64 is not even close to RDB's 71-75
> > either in terms of prolificness or in terms of being successfully
> > productive. QED.
>
> > Next?
>
> > Vinay- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I try AFAP avoid posting in the threads discussing comparisons of
> different musical personality as in spite of best attempts to be
> objective, the personal preferences do play a large role in the
> discussions. However this thread was somewhat of irresistible for me.
> I would like to bring to your attention few things that I think are
> relevant to the discussion.
It seems that despite your carefulness you have ended up putting
subjective arguments in many of your points below. Let's see.
>
> 1) I agree with you that using BGM as a popularity barometer may not
> be a sound idea as it is like using WWF to decide the best wrestler in
> the world. Perhaps the most objective measure would be proportion of
> the total albums sold for the given music director in the given
> period. No of SJ albums sold in 60-64/total albums sold in 60-64 vs
> No of RDB albums sold in 71-75 /total albums sold in 71-75. That
> would eliminate to a large extent the generation preference bias as
> well as differences caused by the improving purchasing power of
> consumers. Difficult to compute, I agree. Another way would be the
> proportion of songs being played in different 'Farmaish' programs on
> VB.
>
This is also difficult to compute. There is no reliable data
available. But before moving forward I want to draw your attention to
an important point.
We are talking of success, not the degree of it. If an album is
successful (whether by being popular at the time of its release or,
later by radio-play or some other measure), it is successful. Period.
Putting a degree to this success will take us again into the gray
areas of subjectivity. Remember our aim here is to record productivity
of value, not the amount of success they had.
> 2) SJ's songs often competed between themselves. In majority of SJ
> films, almost all songs were equally popular. Obviously all of them
> would not find place in BGM. Barring few exceptions like Teesari
> Manzil I do not think RDB had many such films. Many of his films were
> single song wonders like Gomati ke Kinare, Jaise ko Taisa. Many from
> your list of 20 albums that were left out were IMHO even worse than SJ
> in Vachan, International crook, Elaan etc.
>
20 albums I *left out*. Why do you care about them? Anyway, since you
put an IMHO there, I will not dwell upon it. Coming to your main
point, in majority of RDB's albums that I chose, almost all songs are
popular too. Amar Prem, Caravan, Hare Rama Hare Krishna, Apna Desh, Do
Chor, Buddha Mil Gaya, Jawani Diwani, Mere Jeevan Saathi, Parichay,
Seeta Aur Geeta, Anamika, Yaadon Ki Baaraat, Aap Ki Kasam, Ajnabi,
Manoranjan, Aandhi, Khushboo, Sholay, Namak Haraam, Mela, Paraya Dhan
- one song wonders? In fact, some of the films that I did *not*
include had/have more than a couple of hits. Even at the song level,
the result is not going to change much and certainly not necessarily
in S-J's favour.
> 3) Look at the competition SJ had. Almost the who's who of HFM. SJ
> songs had to fight with songs from these stalwarts to get the share of
> the popularity pie. RDB happened to be prolific when all the big names
> were waning. Even LP/KA had their best years behind them. Bappi Lahiri
> was perhaps the only MD of some quality to give resemblance of a
> fight. (How times change! I liked very few of his songs when they
> first assaulted my ears. In the recent episode of Mahayudh, my ears,
> dumbed down by almost 2 decades of mediocre music, responded very
> favourably to Bappida's tunes.)
>
Doesn't matter. We are not going into the causes of success (or
productivity for that matter). Besides, your assertions are non-
sequitur and assumptions simply untrue. S-J had to fight for the
popularity pie and RD did not? And LP-KA had their best years (in
terms of popularity, because that's what we are talking about) behind
in 1971-75? Come on.
> 4) SJ were perhaps the only MD who were capable of selling a film on
> their own name. Even at the prime of his ascendancy RDB's music was a
> big plus to any film but he was never sellable on its own.
>
OK. So what's your point? This is not about who was the most
influential or "sellable" MD of all-time. May be S-J were, may be they
were not. I can say that RDB was not.
> 5) Anecdotal evidence: I have witnessed the unparalleled frenzy that
> SJ's music generated. In the low end cinema halls in Pune and Solapur,
> the people in the lower stalls used to throw coins at the screen to
> show their appreciation of music. I frequented those halls for matinee
> because that way my pocket money stretched quite far in my college
> days. There were many films of SJ that triggered this orgy of coin
> throwing. I particularly remember an occasion when I watched Junglee
> in Alpana in Pune. Din saara gujara tere angana was greeted with a
> huge shower of coins and then with every antara, on the leading line
> to the mukhada the sound of whistles and the tinkle of coins would
> almost drown the song. I have not seen such spontaneous outburst of
> appreciation for any other MD's films. Including films like Parasmani,
> Saavan Bhado etc that are known to have been irresistible to masses
> for their music.
>
First, this is subjective and as you yourself said, anecdotal. Second,
it caters to the degree of success, which is irrelevant. And believe
me, RDB fans can easily outnumber such personal evidences, at least on
the net. A counter argument in this line can be that RDB's music may
not have always generated mass hysteria (though it often did), it
seeped in to the popular taste slowly and lasted longer. So who has
more points? No one can say. That's why I want to avoid the degree in
this discussion.
> 6) Another subjective opinion without any claim to universal
> acceptance. SJ's music was loved by people of all the generations in
> their own time. A college going son and his father/mother would both
> appreciate SJ's songs. RDB used to appeal only to the collegians in
> his days. Many of the RDB's songs became popular later as they sounded
> better after the 80's 90's exacted their toll.
As you said, it's subjective and just your personal observation. It
can be countered by several other observations.
>
> 7) SJ could handle all genres of HFM with equal élan, classical,
> western, folk, ballads, country, pop, cabarets. RDB was very good at
> catering to the urban tastes. SJ has(d) a following in all classes
> with their varied preferences while RDB was popular in niche
> markets.
>
I don't agree with that. I can give you examples of RDBs successful
songs from each of the genres you mentioned and some more.
You can say that S-J were more prolific than RDB in some of the
genres. But it is equally true that RDB was better-versed than S-J in
some others. I don't think that the division line is between urban and
rural though. I don't know if a boundary such as that even exists in
the first place. Would you call folks from Jhumri Talaiya and Rajanand
Gaanv rural or urban? If you count them as rural, do you think they
liked an Amar Prem, an Aandhi or a Caravan any less than an Anari, a
Professor, or a Jab Pyaar Kisise Hota Hai? I don't think so. In any
case, it's almost impossible to prove.
> I like RDB's music a lot, but I do believe a wide gulf separates RDB
> and SJ both in terms of song quality and popularity.
I agree.
Regards,
Vinay
>
> regards,
>
> Sunil
Sunil Dandekar
> It seems that despite your carefulness you have ended up putting
> subjective arguments in many of your points below. Let's see.
You miss the point. I did say I try to avoid posting into such threads
getting into comparisons. It is difficult, if not impossible to avoid
personal preferences. I am yet to see a music critique which is even
remotely objective. I do not know how one can become objective about
anything in the world except perhaps Maths.
> > 1) I agree with you that using BGM as a popularity barometer may not
> > be a sound idea as it is like using WWF to decide the best wrestler in
> > the world. Perhaps the most objective measure would be proportion of
> > the total albums sold for the given music director in the given
> > period. No of SJ albums sold in 60-64/total albums sold in 60-64 vs
> > No of RDB albums sold in 71-75 /total albums sold in 71-75. That
> > would eliminate to a large extent the generation preference bias as
> > well as differences caused by the improving purchasing power of
> > consumers. Difficult to compute, I agree. Another way would be the
> > proportion of songs being played in different 'Farmaish' programs on
> > VB.
>
> This is also difficult to compute. There is no reliable data
> available. But before moving forward I want to draw your attention to
> an important point.
I said so myself.
> We are talking of success, not the degree of it. If an album is
> successful (whether by being popular at the time of its release or,
> later by radio-play or some other measure), it is successful. Period.
> Putting a degree to this success will take us again into the gray
> areas of subjectivity. Remember our aim here is to record productivity
> of value, not the amount of success they had.
So your belief is success and popularity can be decided absolutely but
the degree of success and popularity can not be. That is very
interesting.
> > 2) SJ's songs often competed between themselves. In majority of SJ
> > films, almost all songs were equally popular. Obviously all of them
> > would not find place in BGM. Barring few exceptions like Teesari
> > Manzil I do not think RDB had many such films. Many of his films were
> > single song wonders like Gomati ke Kinare, Jaise ko Taisa. Many from
> > your list of 20 albums that were left out were IMHO even worse than SJ
> > in Vachan, International crook, Elaan etc.
>
> 20 albums I *left out*. Why do you care about them? Anyway, since you
> put an IMHO there, I will not dwell upon it. Coming to your main
> point, in majority of RDB's albums that I chose, almost all songs are
> popular too. Amar Prem, Caravan, Hare Rama Hare Krishna, Apna Desh, Do
> Chor, Buddha Mil Gaya, Jawani Diwani, Mere Jeevan Saathi, Parichay,
> Seeta Aur Geeta, Anamika, Yaadon Ki Baaraat, Aap Ki Kasam, Ajnabi,
> Manoranjan, Aandhi, Khushboo, Sholay, Namak Haraam, Mela, Paraya Dhan
> - one song wonders? In fact, some of the films that I did *not*
> include had/have more than a couple of hits. Even at the song level,
> the result is not going to change much and certainly not necessarily
> in S-J's favour.
Apna Desh? Do chor? Seeta aur Geeta?, Aap ki kasam? Ajnabi?
Manoranjan? Sholay? Mela? Very ordinary scores barring few songs
IMHO. (e.g. Chori chori in Manoranjan, Rut hai milan ki in Mela..)
> > 3) Look at the competition SJ had. Almost the who's who of HFM. SJ
> > songs had to fight with songs from these stalwarts to get the share of
> > the popularity pie. RDB happened to be prolific when all the big names
> > were waning. Even LP/KA had their best years behind them. Bappi Lahiri
> > was perhaps the only MD of some quality to give resemblance of a
> > fight. (How times change! I liked very few of his songs when they
> > first assaulted my ears. In the recent episode of Mahayudh, my ears,
> > dumbed down by almost 2 decades of mediocre music, responded very
> > favourably to Bappida's tunes.)
>
> Doesn't matter. We are not going into the causes of success (or
> productivity for that matter). Besides, your assertions are non-
> sequitur and assumptions simply untrue.
Let's talk about my assumptions. How active were SJ/OPN/Roshan/SC/
Naushad/MM/CR in the period 71-75?
Do you disagree that LP and KA had their best years behind them?
If my argument is a non sequitur, then perhaps you are suggesting that
a win against West Indies of Clive Lloyd or Australia of Steve Waugh
is same as win against India of Rahul Dravid. After all win is a win
and the 'degree' of win is not important.
>S-J had to fight for the
> popularity pie and RD did not? And LP-KA had their best years (in
> terms of popularity, because that's what we are talking about) behind
> in 1971-75? Come on.
Yeah come on.
>
> > 4) SJ were perhaps the only MD who were capable of selling a film on
> > their own name. Even at the prime of his ascendancy RDB's music was a
> > big plus to any film but he was never sellable on its own.
>
> OK. So what's your point? This is not about who was the most
> influential or "sellable" MD of all-time. May be S-J were, may be they
> were not. I can say that RDB was not.
My point is saleable = Popular.
>
> > 5) Anecdotal evidence: I have witnessed the unparalleled frenzy that
> > SJ's music generated. In the low end cinema halls in Pune and Solapur,
> > the people in the lower stalls used to throw coins at the screen to
> > show their appreciation of music. I frequented those halls for matinee
> > because that way my pocket money stretched quite far in my college
> > days. There were many films of SJ that triggered this orgy of coin
> > throwing. I particularly remember an occasion when I watched Junglee
> > in Alpana in Pune. Din saara gujara tere angana was greeted with a
> > huge shower of coins and then with every antara, on the leading line
> > to the mukhada the sound of whistles and the tinkle of coins would
> > almost drown the song. I have not seen such spontaneous outburst of
> > appreciation for any other MD's films. Including films like Parasmani,
> > Saavan Bhado etc that are known to have been irresistible to masses
> > for their music.
>
> First, this is subjective and as you yourself said, anecdotal.
So I said. What are you saying?
>Second,
> it caters to the degree of success, which is irrelevant. And believe
> me, RDB fans can easily outnumber such personal evidences, at least on
> the net. A counter argument in this line can be that RDB's music may
> not have always generated mass hysteria (though it often did), it
> seeped in to the popular taste slowly and lasted longer. So who has
> more points? No one can say. That's why I want to avoid the degree in
> this discussion.
The difference between 'success' and 'degree of success' is same as
that between a 'herring' and a 'red herring'
> > 6) Another subjective opinion without any claim to universal
> > acceptance. SJ's music was loved by people of all the generations in
> > their own time. A college going son and his father/mother would both
> > appreciate SJ's songs. RDB used to appeal only to the collegians in
> > his days. Many of the RDB's songs became popular later as they sounded
> > better after the 80's 90's exacted their toll.
>
> As you said, it's subjective and just your personal observation.
I always write my personal opinions. Whose do you?
>It
> can be countered by several other observations.>
> > 7) SJ could handle all genres of HFM with equal élan, classical,
> > western, folk, ballads, country, pop, cabarets. RDB was very good at
> > catering to the urban tastes. SJ has(d) a following in all classes
> > with their varied preferences while RDB was popular in niche
> > markets.
>
> I don't agree with that. I can give you examples of RDBs successful
> songs from each of the genres you mentioned and some more.
Please do. I respect your right to disagree. It is not my intention to
convert you. Please allow me to share my view points too.
>
<snipped>
Regards,
Sunil
Vinay
By all means, please do. Who am I to stop you? But you are probably
doing it in a wrong thread. I suggest you read the thread from the
beginning. You are missing the point of the exercise.
It is not about whether SJ is more "saleable hence popular" than RD in
general. Nor about whether Aap ki kasam was an "ordinary score" or
not. It is about whether RD was the most successfully productive MD in
any given five year period or not? None of the points you made are
relevant to this discussion. The key is productivity. Successful/
popular is a mere, but necessary, qualification.
In effect, we are not discussing anything else here except, whether a
listed album was/is popular or not. Rest is plain data (you can't
change the total number of films RDB or S-J did during those periods,
can you?). So, just tell me if you have any information (not your
opinion) that excludes any of the RD scores I mentioned as successful
from the list. If you don't, there it stands.
I was hoping someone will come up with some data on the CR's period
that Ganti mentioned.
Vinay
>
> Regards,
>
> Sunil- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Arunabha
> any given five year period or not? None of the points you made are
> relevant to this discussion. The key is productivity. Successful/
> popular is a mere, but necessary, qualification.
Vinay,
I have a couple of questions for you based on all this
analysis. It seems objectively clear that RDB was a superhit (or maybe
the biggest all-time superhit) composer of the 70s. Why then are there
so many misconceptions about him among his modern-day fans ?
1) Why do people continue to claim that he was sidelined, ignored,
without work, underappreciated etc etc ? From your list you seem to
indicate that even his B and C-graders were successful.
2) Why is he often given the title of avant-garde composer, music-of-
the classes-not-masses "biis saal aage kaa music dete the" ? The BGM
statistics show in fact that his music was very much in times with the
needs of the day. It runs neck to neck and succeeds in competing with
the worst populist trash of the 70s produced by the other mass-
producers. This "ahead of his times" sobriquet becomes even more
surprising given that the same fans do not generally hold 2000's music
in good esteem, complaining instead about how "music has degraded"
after RDB's demise.
3) What happened to these multitudes of fans after 1975/1977
whatever ? Did they suddenly lose hope/taste in RDB ?
Will these numbers in fact be a surprise for the average RDB fan ?
-- Arunabha
Asif
>
> Vinay,
> I have a couple of questions for you based on all this
> analysis. It seems objectively clear that RDB was a superhit (or maybe
> the biggest all-time superhit) composer of the 70s. Why then are there
> so many misconceptions about him among his modern-day fans ?
>
> 1) Why do people continue to claim that he was sidelined, ignored,
> without work, underappreciated etc etc ? From your list you seem to
> indicate that even his B and C-graders were successful.
That complaint about him "sidelined" stems in the late 1980s when his
health worsened and his various musicians left him one by one.
I do not know about B- or C-grade films. Vinay did not label them as
such either. Let me cut/paste the films he listed:
Mela, Paraya Dhan, Gomti Ke Kinare, Rakhi Aur Hathkadi, Samadhi, Aa
Gale Lag Jaa, Double Cross, Joshila, Shareef Budmaash, Ishk Ishk Ishk,
Deewar, Kaala Sona, Khel Khel Mein
Me adds: All of them were made by established filmmakers, most being
top ones.
Popular score tally: 44
I have still left about 20-odd albums out, many of which are my
personal favorites and many of which may be considered successful (I
just don't have data about them).
Adhikar, Hungama, Pyar Ki Kahani, Dil Ka Raja, Garam Masala,
Parchhaiyan, Rani Mera Naam, Sanjog, Savera, Bada Kabutar, Bandhe
Hath, Chhalia, Hifazat, Jaise Ko Taisa, Mr Romeo, Nafrat, 5 Dushman
(Daulat Ke Dushman), Rickshawala, Charitraheen, Dil Diwana, Doosri
Sita, Goonj, Humshakal, Imaan, Khote Sikkay, Madhosh, Phir Kab Milogi,
Shaitaan, Trimurti, Ujala Hi Ujala, Kehtey Hain Mujhko Raja, Mazaaq
Me adds: Except for Parchhaiyan, Rani Mera Naam, Savera, Hifazat,
Nafrat, 5 Dushman (Daulat Ke Dushman), and Ujala Hi Ujala, all were
made by established filmakers. The excepted films maybe low-grade
(per your labels), but Vinay did not include any of these films in his
list and did not talk about the films. We were interested in the
music of those films. As I said in some other posts, songs from most
of these films (Adhikar to Mazaaq) were hits in their time (I have
Binaca Geet Mala weekly lists to prove it - read 'data') and are
popular even today. Anyway, would you call these songs (random
examples) 'ordinary' or 'poor'?
1. Koi maane ya na maane (Adhikaar, 1971)
2. Koi aur duniya mein (Pyar Ki Kahani, 1971)
3. Mere bandhe haath (Bandhe Haath, 1972) and other songs from this
film.
4. Ae jaan-e-wafa (Chhalia, 1973) and other songs from this film.
5. Jaan-e-jahaan roothha na karo (Hifazat, 1973) and 'Mere hamraahi
mere pyaar' from same film.
6. Abke saawan mein (Jaise Ko Taisa, 1973)
7. Yahaan naheen kahoongi (Mr Romeo, 1973) and 'Na soyenge' from the
same film.
8. Jaana hai hamen to jahaan (Daulat Ke Dushman)
9. Dil se dil milne ka (Charitraheen, 1974) and 'Teri meri yaari'
from the same film - both among RDB's finest!
10. Qasam khaao tum (Madhosh, 1974) and 'Sharaabi aankhen' from the
same film.
11. Kaheen karti hogi wo (Phir Kab Milogi, 1974)
>
> 2) Why is he often given the title of avant-garde composer, music-of-
> the classes-not-masses "biis saal aage kaa music dete the" ? The BGM
> statistics show in fact that his music was very much in times with the
> needs of the day. It runs neck to neck and succeeds in competing with
> the worst populist trash of the 70s produced by the other mass-producers.
I am not sure I understand your question. He did experiment all the
time and often ended up delivering tunes that may have sounded ahead
of their time, but mostly he was following his own basic instincts (to
borrow my own phrase from a letter I published in Filmfare years ago)
and composing pleasing songs. His fans from the class may have
classified him as their own, but that did not deter him from not
wanting to create popular music - and that's exactly what we saw
especially in 1971-75. Anyway, I would like to see the data that
proves his music was not popular in the countryside. The country
folks then might not have known his name, but they surely loved his
music from his more popular films, like Kati Patang, Caravan, Apna
Desh, Hare Rama Hare Krishna, Aap Ki Kasam, and Do Chor.
Yes, I agree that his music did compete with the populist trash of the
'70s. It has been the norm of Hindi film music history, you know.
That trash is soon forgotten, but you always remember the good stuff
for a long time to come. In the 1950s we got so much rock-n-roll
trash that the 1970s trash (by LP/KA mostly) pales in comparison, but
today we only remember the good music by a host of composers of that
time. In the 1960s we got some trash in the form of bland, boring
music (until RDB arrived with Teesri Manzil) but today we cherish
mostly refreshing albums like Aashiq, Professor, Phir Wohi Dil Laya
Hoon, Mere Sanam, Guide, Jewel Thief, Sangam, Jab Jab Phool Khile, and
Teesri Manzil. In this decade we got trash even from Naushad, SJ, and
SDB. I would not pile all the trash only on the 1970s.
>This "ahead of his times" sobriquet becomes even more
> surprising given that the same fans do not generally hold 2000's music
> in good esteem, complaining instead about how "music has degraded"
> after RDB's demise.
So you mean that the 2000s music is what RDB created back then and now
his fans rejects it as "degraded"? If yes, you must be kidding.
>
> 3) What happened to these multitudes of fans after 1975/1977
> whatever ? Did they suddenly lose hope/taste in RDB ?
>
I am still listening to the 1970s stuff by RDB and keep discovering it
again and again. Nope, I never lost the taste for it one bit.
Regards,
Asif
Ketan
says...
Arunabha,
> I have a couple of questions for you based on all this
You say "Couple" and then ask atleast 3 questions(excluding the last one which
is not numbered, which would make it 4). Stop the presses. Bangaloreans not as
good as we thought in English. Bring the jobs back.
>analysis. It seems objectively clear that RDB was a superhit (or maybe
>the biggest all-time superhit) composer of the 70s. Why then are there
>so many misconceptions about him among his modern-day fans ?
>
>1) Why do people continue to claim that he was sidelined, ignored
>without work, underappreciated etc etc ? From your list you seem to
>indicate that even his B and C-graders were successful.
As Asif indicated that happened in the 80s, after the movies for which he had
composed were miserable flops. Not all those movies had bad music. Saagar and
Yeh Wada Raha, had good music. Somehow he got associated with the stigma of a
"flop movie MD" just as MM had earlier. RD probably made it worse by bringing
attention to it in an interview in the mid-80s, wherein he stated that 24 of his
movies had flopped.
>2) Why is he often given the title of avant-garde composer, music-of-
>the classes-not-masses "biis saal aage kaa music dete the" ? The BGM
>statistics show in fact that his music was very much in times with the
>needs of the day. It runs neck to neck and succeeds in competing with
>the worst populist trash of the 70s produced by the other mass-
>producers. This "ahead of his times" sobriquet becomes even more
>surprising given that the same fans do not generally hold 2000's music
>in good esteem, complaining instead about how "music has degraded"
>after RDB's demise.
Simple answer. People who liked RD's music when it came out in the 70s(Vinay,
Abhijit, myself, to name just 3), were 20 years ahead of the rest of you guys.
While you were still a single celled organism, we were already walking upright
on land. Jokes aside, the following article written by a professor of psychology
and music might help explain. In most places, simply replace the musical group
mentioned with RDB. Paragraphs 6, 7 and 8 could easily apply to RDB. The
exercise in paragraph 9 is something I have participated in for a quiz contest
during my college days. The only thing we heard was a "Hush" and we were asked
to guess the song. Yours truly correctly identified it. (Anyone care to guess?)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/31/AR2007053101848.html
>3) What happened to these multitudes of fans after 1975/1977
>whatever ? Did they suddenly lose hope/taste in RDB ?
Log into the RDB yahoo group. I believe they are still there and breeding.
>Will these numbers in fact be a surprise for the average RDB fan ?
Since you have already exceeded your own question limit, I refuse to answer it
till you make a separate post. :)
Ketan
Sunil Dandekar
You calculate the most successfully productive years using your
methodology. I am not comfortable with that. I bring my views to
discussion. Instead of dealing with them on their merit you start
labling them as irrelevant and non sequiturs or whatever. If they are
irrelevant, why do you bother to respond?
> It is not about whether SJ is more "saleable hence popular" than RD in
> general. Nor about whether Aap ki kasam was an "ordinary score" or
> not. It is about whether RD was the most successfully productive MD in
> any given five year period or not? None of the points you made are
> relevant to this discussion. The key is productivity. Successful/
> popular is a mere, but necessary, qualification.
Irrelevant? May be yes, may be the finger and the moon.
What is successfully productive? Does your definition of success
preclude popularity and saleability?
>
> In effect, we are not discussing anything else here except, whether a
> listed album was/is popular or not. Rest is plain data (you can't
> change the total number of films RDB or S-J did during those periods,
> can you?). So, just tell me if you have any information (not your
> opinion) that excludes any of the RD scores I mentioned as successful
> from the list. If you don't, there it stands.
In effect you do not want to discuss anything else than your
prescribed method for coming to conclusions you like. Sorry, can not
oblige you.
regards,
Sunil
Ketan
Dandekar says...
>On Jun 8, 11:17 pm, Vinay <v9y....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> By all means, please do. Who am I to stop you? But you are probably
>> doing it in a wrong thread. I suggest you read the thread from the
>> beginning. You are missing the point of the exercise.
>
>You calculate the most successfully productive years using your
>methodology. I am not comfortable with that. I bring my views to
>discussion. Instead of dealing with them on their merit you start
>labling them as irrelevant and non sequiturs or whatever. If they are
>irrelevant, why do you bother to respond?
Au contraire it is you who insists on discussing things that only fit the
conclusions you like. Even if what is being discussed is miles away from your
agenda. Instead of responding to the question asked, you keep shoving your
tangential and irrelevant statements. Vinay is right--please read the original
question posed again..and again..and again.
>In effect you do not want to discuss anything else than your
>prescribed method for coming to conclusions you like. Sorry, can not
>oblige you.
I wish you would stick to not obliging us. You keep going back on your word.
Once again, Abhijit's question is very clear and outline the terms of THIS
debate. If you want to have a debate on different terms start another thread. No
one's stopping you. Stop pushing your terms on THIS debate and accusing us of
skullduggery because the outcome is not to your liking. You did something very
similar just a few months ago when you were railing at the interpretation of the
word "sb". When UVR/Afzal saab took pains to clarify your mistake, off you went
on a tangent arguing and challenging linguists in a language you yourself have
claimed you know nothing about simply because you ended up with egg on your
face. Next time scrape it off, make an omlette and eat that. Khali-pili apun ka
dimaag kaiko khata hai?
Ketan
P.S: Jesus, quick someone give me an award for civility and basic decency for
the sheer number of 4, 5, 6... letter words I had typed to describe Sunil and
have now deleted before posting this.
sm0...@gmail.com
> 2) Why is he often given the title of avant-garde composer, music-of-
RDB was "ahead of his times" because he was churning out trash in the
70s that wasn't supposed to hit the air waves until the 90s or
2000s! :-)
I love RDB's music but can't understand all the recent hype
surrounding him - I'm not referring to this thread but to the hype in
the media about his music. Sure, he was great, but so were several
others before him. As someone pointed out the other day, he didn't
take part in the "real derby." Not his fault for sure, but we'll never
find out how he would've stacked up against the big boys of the 50s
and early 60s.
There was some argument about RDB not being popular in the small towns
and rural India. While I don't agree with this statement, I do feel
that RDB's music seldom had that rustic and folksy touch even when the
situation demanded it. Even songs like "Aaao jhoomen gaaen..." (Paraya
Dhan) and "Rut hai milan ki...." (Mela?) have a western touch. To
borrow an idea from Yousuf Bhai (that infamous line to Lata decades
back), RDB ke gaanon me (aksar)burger aur pizza ki bo (smell) aati
hai.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
> -- Arunabha
Sukesh
> On Jun 8, 3:10 pm, Arunabha <roy.aruna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > 2) Why is he often given the title of avant-garde composer, music-of-
>
> RDB was "ahead of his times" because he was churning out trash in the
> 70s that wasn't supposed to hit the air waves until the 90s or
> 2000s! :-)
> I love RDB's music but can't understand all the recent hype
> surrounding him - I'm not referring to this thread but to the hype in
> the media about his music. Sure, he was great, but so were several
> others before him. As someone pointed out the other day, he didn't
> take part in the "real derby." Not his fault for sure, but we'll never
> find out how he would've stacked up against the big boys of the 50s
> and early 60s.
When the 'real Derby' was on, he came up with magical scores in
'Chhote Nawab' and 'Teesri Manzil'.
After that - yucks, except for rare gems every now and then. Three
numbers come to mind 'aanewaalaa pal' (Golmaal) and 'musaafir hoon
yaaron (Parichay) and 'mere nainaa' (Mehbooba).
A point to consider - did part of Kishore Kumar's popularity get
transferred to RDB?
Abhijit
> On Jun 10, 1:25 pm, sm0...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Jun 8, 3:10 pm, Arunabha <roy.aruna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > 2) Why is he often given the title of avant-garde composer, music-of-
>
> > RDB was "ahead of his times" because he was churning out trash in the
> > 70s that wasn't supposed to hit the air waves until the 90s or
> > 2000s! :-)
> > I love RDB's music but can't understand all the recent hype
> > surrounding him - I'm not referring to this thread but to the hype in
> > the media about his music. Sure, he was great, but so were several
> > others before him. As someone pointed out the other day, he didn't
> > take part in the "real derby." Not his fault for sure, but we'll never
> > find out how he would've stacked up against the big boys of the 50s
> > and early 60s.
>
> When the 'real Derby' was on, he came up with magical scores in
> 'Chhote Nawab' and 'Teesri Manzil'.
If you consider 'Chhote Nawab'/'Teesri Manzil' as 'magical', I am
interested to know why you would consider 'Kati Patang', 'Amar Prem',
'Mere Jeevan Saathi', 'Caravan', 'Buddha Mil Gaya' (to name only a
few) trash?
> After that - yucks, except for rare gems every now and then. Three
> numbers come to mind 'aanewaalaa pal' (Golmaal) and 'musaafir hoon
> yaaron (Parichay) and 'mere nainaa' (Mehbooba).
>
This just tells me you probably were/are not keeping track of the
music of the 70s. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But I
wouldn't call anything 'yucks' that I haven't seen or heard of.
> A point to consider - did part of Kishore Kumar's popularity get
> transferred to RDB?
>
It could be the other way also. [No Kishore-RDB war now please!]
Kishore perhaps wouldn't have been known as much as we know him
without RDB. Just remove RDB from Kishore's repertoire, and you can
yourself see what remains. The same can be true of RDB as well because
Kishore was after all RDB's most favoured (male) singer. I guess it's
just the chemistry between the two which worked like magic.
Abhijit
> On Jun 8, 3:10 pm, Arunabha <roy.aruna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > 2) Why is he often given the title of avant-garde composer, music-of-
>
> RDB was "ahead of his times" because he was churning out trash in the
> 70s that wasn't supposed to hit the air waves until the 90s or
> 2000s! :-)
>
> I love RDB's music but can't understand all the recent hype
> surrounding him - I'm not referring to this thread but to the hype in
> the media about his music. Sure, he was great, but so were several
So why are you complaining? He perhaps didn't get his due when he was
active (most limelight went to L-P, K-A, Bappi then) and is getting
them now as people are discovering his music's worth. Others before
him got their due (that's why people always refer to that as golden
era).
> others before him. As someone pointed out the other day, he didn't
> take part in the "real derby." Not his fault for sure, but we'll never
> find out how he would've stacked up against the big boys of the 50s
> and early 60s.
>
What's the difference between 60s and 70s when you compare in the
present context? 40+ years old vs 30+ years old? And the difference is
narrowing year after year. Wouldn't you call 30+ years old songs still
plyaing in the hearts of people as time-tested as much as a 40+ years
old. So why can't they be compared in the present context? Well, there
is no way of comparing them in the 60s or 70s context. But to give you
an idea of how they compare in the present context, just check out the
top 20 Hindi songs sold online by HamaraCD. Mind you these are the
songs people are paying money to listen to. Well, you can blame the
present generation's taste for making RDB's 14 songs in the list, but
the same generation also selected 'aaj phir jiine kii tamannaa hai'
and 'kahii.n duur jab din Dhal jaaye'.
> There was some argument about RDB not being popular in the small towns
> and rural India. While I don't agree with this statement, I do feel
> that RDB's music seldom had that rustic and folksy touch even when the
> situation demanded it. Even songs like "Aaao jhoomen gaaen..." (Paraya
> Dhan) and "Rut hai milan ki...." (Mela?) have a western touch. To
> borrow an idea from Yousuf Bhai (that infamous line to Lata decades
> back), RDB ke gaanon me (aksar)burger aur pizza ki bo (smell) aati
> hai.
>
kaash mujhe bhii 'ba.ngale ke piichhe, berii ke niiche' ##pizza## kii
Kushabuu milatii!!! shaayad merii naak kaa kasuur hai.
Asif
>
> > A point to consider - did part of Kishore Kumar's popularity get
> > transferred to RDB?
>
> It could be the other way also. [No Kishore-RDB war now please!]
> Kishore perhaps wouldn't have been known as much as we know him
> without RDB. Just remove RDB from Kishore's repertoire, and you can
> yourself see what remains. The same can be true of RDB as well because
> Kishore was after all RDB's most favoured (male) singer. I guess it's
> just the chemistry between the two which worked like magic.
This 'point to consider' is as much baseless and ridiculous as the
point that 'did Rafi's popularity get transferred to SJ'? I would
suggest you (Abhijit) do not waste time discussing it.
Asif
>
> > There was some argument about RDB not being popular in the small towns
> > and rural India. While I don't agree with this statement, I do feel
> > that RDB's music seldom had that rustic and folksy touch even when the
> > situation demanded it. Even songs like "Aaao jhoomen gaaen..." (Paraya
> > Dhan) and "Rut hai milan ki...." (Mela?) have a western touch. To
> > borrow an idea from Yousuf Bhai (that infamous line to Lata decades
> > back), RDB ke gaanon me (aksar)burger aur pizza ki bo (smell) aati
> > hai.
>
> kaash mujhe bhii 'ba.ngale ke piichhe, berii ke niiche' ##pizza## kii
> Kushabuu milatii!!! shaayad merii naak kaa kasuur hai.
Who is this mahagadha 'Yousuf Bhai' and why people might subscribe to
his views instead of opening their own eyes, ears, and noses?
Vinay
> It is about whether RD was the most successfully productive MD in
>
> > any given five year period or not? None of the points you made are
> > relevant to this discussion. The key is productivity. Successful/
> > popular is a mere, but necessary, qualification.
>
> Vinay,
> I have a couple of questions for you based on all this
> analysis. It seems objectively clear that RDB was a superhit (or maybe
> the biggest all-time superhit) composer of the 70s. Why then are there
> so many misconceptions about him among his modern-day fans ?
Frankly, I can't speak for all the fans. Contrary to the general
belief (at least on RMIM), RDB fans come in all sizes and ages and
within themselves a lot of difference of opinion exists. By modern-day
fans, you probably mean the fans whose first access to RDB was thru
the remixes. I sure can't speak for them. It may sound harsh but I
think most of them are as ignorant of RDB's work as someone in this
thread who thinks that mere nainaa, aanewaalaa pal, and musaafir hoon
yaaro were his three best songs post 60s.
>
> 1) Why do people continue to claim that he was sidelined, ignored,
> without work, underappreciated etc etc ? From your list you seem to
> indicate that even his B and C-graders were successful.
Fan-speak aside, when people or fans say that he was without work and
all, they are talking about the last ten to twelve years of his life.
>
> 2) Why is he often given the title of avant-garde composer, music-of-
> the classes-not-masses "biis saal aage kaa music dete the" ? The BGM
> statistics show in fact that his music was very much in times with the
> needs of the day. It runs neck to neck and succeeds in competing with
> the worst populist trash of the 70s produced by the other mass-
> producers. This "ahead of his times" sobriquet becomes even more
> surprising given that the same fans do not generally hold 2000's music
> in good esteem, complaining instead about how "music has degraded"
> after RDB's demise.
>
How does one know if a certain kind of music is ahead of its time? I
don't know. Probably a score that was not hit or popular at the time
of its release but over the time or after a certain time people
started liking it? If that's a reasonable definition then RD indeed
deserves that sobriquet. Much of his 80s output was ignored when it
first came out. However, today many of the same scores are popular and
in fact a big reason for him being in fashion. Almost entire initial
remix craze was centered around some of the underappreciated works of
RDB.
> 3) What happened to these multitudes of fans after 1975/1977
> whatever ? Did they suddenly lose hope/taste in RDB ?
In general, I think most people listen to music without realising
which MD or lyricist has composed it. More people know about the
singers, but even those are a small percentage or total listeners.
Fans of any musical celebrity are a minority and cannot make an album
hit on their own.
I don't think most RDB fans went anywhere. If any dead MD has the die-
hardest fans in HFM, it's RDB :). As Ketan said, you just need to
check the RDB Yahoogroup to find a sampling of that. As I said
earlier, it's just that those who call themselves his fans are still
not a sizable enough number to change market dynamics.
>
> Will these numbers in fact be a surprise for the average RDB fan ?
>
I don't know. Besides, an average RDB fan is way too difficult to
define than say an average Anil Biswas fan or an average Madan Mohan
fan.
A few of your questions can easily be passed as rhetorical. I hope
they were not :).
Vinay
> -- Arunabha
Sukesh
> On Jun 11, 1:54 am, Sukesh <sukesh_hoo...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 10, 1:25 pm, sm0...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 8, 3:10 pm, Arunabha <roy.aruna...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > 2) Why is he often given the title of avant-garde composer, music-of-
>
> > > RDB was "ahead of his times" because he was churning out trash in the
> > > 70s that wasn't supposed to hit the air waves until the 90s or
> > > 2000s! :-)
> > > I love RDB's music but can't understand all the recent hype
> > > surrounding him - I'm not referring to this thread but to the hype in
> > > the media about his music. Sure, he was great, but so were several
> > > others before him. As someone pointed out the other day, he didn't
> > > take part in the "real derby." Not his fault for sure, but we'll never
> > > find out how he would've stacked up against the big boys of the 50s
> > > and early 60s.
>
> > When the 'real Derby' was on, he came up with magical scores in
> > 'Chhote Nawab' and 'Teesri Manzil'.
>
> If you consider 'Chhote Nawab'/'Teesri Manzil' as 'magical', I am
> interested to know why you would consider 'Kati Patang', 'Amar Prem',
> 'Mere Jeevan Saathi', 'Caravan', 'Buddha Mil Gaya' (to name only a
> few) trash?
I did not say trash for films I did not mention, generally yucks.
Between magical and trash, there can be many levels of quality.
In 80s it became double yucks, in 90s three time yucks and today
several times yucks - except for very very rare gems.
> > After that - yucks, except for rare gems every now and then. Three
> > numbers come to mind 'aanewaalaa pal' (Golmaal) and 'musaafir hoon
> > yaaron (Parichay) and 'mere nainaa' (Mehbooba).
>
> This just tells me you probably were/are not keeping track of the
> music of the 70s. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But I
> wouldn't call anything 'yucks' that I haven't seen or heard of.
I did keep track. Here is a list of magical scores in 70s.
Dastak, Johny Mera Naam, Pakeezah, Sharmilee, Bobby, Jawani Diwani,
Aandhi, Chhotisi Baat, Kabhi Kabhie, Ek Baar Muskura Do. (Note : two
of the films are RDBs).
> > A point to consider - did part of Kishore Kumar's popularity get
> > transferred to RDB?
>
> It could be the other way also. [No Kishore-RDB war now please!]
> Kishore perhaps wouldn't have been known as much as we know him
> without RDB. Just remove RDB from Kishore's repertoire, and you can
> yourself see what remains. The same can be true of RDB as well because
> Kishore was after all RDB's most favoured (male) singer. I guess it's
> just the chemistry between the two which worked like magic.
I had raised a point - let others have their say too. I agree, it
could be the other way around.
Regards
Sukesh
UVR
>
> In general, I think most people listen to music without realising
> which MD or lyricist has composed it. More people know about the
> singers, but even those are a small percentage or total listeners.
> Fans of any musical celebrity are a minority and cannot make an album
> hit on their own.
>
Whaaaaaaaat? You can't be serious!
If your assertion was even remotely correct, Himesh Reshammiya
would never have become as big a hit as he has.
It is the "fans" of musical celebrities that make their favorite
celebrity's
"average to below average" stuff popular and successful. This is
true for RDB as much as it is for Lata.
-UVR.
Archisman Mozumder
> On Jun 1, 9:01 am, Asif <alvi.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Much though I respect and admire SDB, I think he sustained his charm
> > over music lovers for a long period only once (1955-60). He had
> > mostly short bursts of glory and popularity - I can count 1951-53,
> > 1965-67, 1970-71, and then 1972-73. In 1959-63 period (the in
>
> Correction: Let me make it 'twice' - besides 1955-60, he had another
> spell in 1969-73.
>
> Asif
Dear Asif-saab,
I agree with your comment about SD's second phase between 1969 - 73.
IMO, the high points are 'Tere Mere Sapne' & Abhimaan.
RD, between 1971 to 75 had the greatest purple patch that I have
known. Similarly, SJ, between 1955 to 64 had the greatest 10-year
purple patch. RD's 10-year patch 1971 - 80 is very very good too, but
one must bear in mind that in the latter half of the 70-s, barring
Asha-tai, the other greats were beginning to display the ravages of
time in their voices. SJ's great decade had all the singers in the
high noon of their career. And singers like those do not recur in a
hurry.
For a sheer 1 year dazzle, I'd rate RD in 1973 as # 1. (To compose
over a 100 songs in one year and maintaining such a high quality in a
lot of them is no mean feat).
Closely followed by Madan Mohan in 1964. For a Madan Mohan fan 1964
must have been irresistible with the following releases:
Aap Ki Parchhaiyan
Ghazal
Haqeeqat
Jahan Ara
Pooja Ke Phool
Sharabi
Suhagan
Woh Kaun Thi
RD is 1974 & in 1981 was also very good.
I had read a comment by 'Goldie' Anand somewhere that RD burnt himself
out in the decade of the 70-s competing with LP & KA who worked in
tandem. How much of this is true, is open to conjecture because RD,
according to me. had a very competent team around him that he
inherited from his father. Arrangers & musicians like Basu, Manohari,
Marurirao Keer, Bhanu Gupta, Kersi Lord, etc were very very talented.
Regards.
KKKing
mmmmmmm Burger :-)
> There was some argument about RDB not being popular in the small towns
> and rural India. While I don't agree with this statement, I do feel
> that RDB's music seldom had that rustic and folksy touch even when the
> situation demanded it. Even songs like "Aaao jhoomen gaaen..." (Paraya
> Dhan) and "Rut hai milan ki...." (Mela?) have a western touch. To
> borrow an idea from Yousuf Bhai (that infamous line to Lata decades
> back), RDB ke gaanon me (aksar)burger aur pizza ki bo (smell) aati
> hai.
>
> Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
.... by the way .... the same Naushad that called Asha as having a
"bazaru voice" (implying that she was a whore); same Naushad that
refused to use Kishore Kumar no matter what the situation !!!
Asif
Not really, UVR Sahab. 5 of my friends and I tried to make Bade Dil
Wala (1982) album a hit (when it was released), but it did not work.
It sank without a trace. Not that the album was average (it was
excellent), but we failed to make it a hit.
The "fans" of a musical celebrities only sustain the celebrities' work
over a long time, but they never succeeded to make it a hit (when it
was released) on their own. A vast majority of others (and I am
talking about at least pre-1990) hardly initially knew who composed
the songs they loved at first sound. Try to recall your childhood and
boyhood days and see how much you and others (especially the less-
privileged folks) knew about a song when it first appealed to you.
Let me give you two examples from my own childhood:
1) I FIRST listened to 'Salaam-e-ishq meri jaan' (Muqaddar Ka
Sikandar, 1978) on a weekly Binaca Geet Mala show and loved it. I
listened to it for on at least 4 more weekly shows before I found out
it was composed by KA (all 4 weeks I missed the film's name). I
hardly listened to other radio shows those days because of school
work, so I did not know much about the song. It was a pleasant
surprise to me that the song was from the film that had a few other
songs that had really regaled me. So, essentially, I made the song a
hit (by wanting to listen to it more and more) without knowing much
about it.
2) I FIRST listened to 'Toone o rangeele kaisa jaadu kiya' (Kudrat,
1980) again on a weekly Binaca Geet Mala show and loved it. And again
I did not get to know its MD for at least 3-4 weeks, but I figured it
was LP. Not that I hate any particular MD from pre-1985 period. I
love any song that appeals to me, no matter who composed it. But when
I finally found out 'Toone o rangeele' was by RDB, I jumped out of
surprise. Such a melodic, rustic, upbeat song, and I had missed the
RD touch in it for 4 weeks. Nevertheless, my fascination for it did
not change, LP or RDB. It was a hit for me.
Asif
Vinay
>
>
>
> > In general, I think most people listen to music without realising
> > which MD or lyricist has composed it. More people know about the
> > singers, but even those are a small percentage or total listeners.
> > Fans of any musical celebrity are a minority and cannot make an album
> > hit on their own.
>
> Whaaaaaaaat? You can't be serious!
Umm, I may be wrong, but I was serious. I agree that times have
changed. The visibility that an MD gets nowadays has increased
manifold. Nadeem-Shravan made a remarkable difference when they
insisted on putting their pictures on every cassette/CD cover of their
albums. Since then things have only got better for those MDs who want
to be in the limelight.
Despite all that, even in this age, I think a much larger portion of
listeners do not take more than a cursory interest in who the MD of an
album is. Most listeners cannot identify between a SEL's song from a
Vishal-Shekhar's. As I said, more people would be able to identify or
remember the singers, however. I think it works similar to the actor/
director way if we talk of movies. Actors are far more popular than
directors and most people make their decision to see a movie based on
who the actors are compare to those who do it based on the director's
name. Similar (may be not in the exact ratio) thing works in the music
arena. Except that in music's case, most people don't care even about
the singers. They listen to a certain music either because they like
it or because they are told (by the ever growing media and marketing
world) that it is good. Unfortunately, the latter outnumber the former
by a significant number. You can see its effect in the fact that the
most popular song of an album is the one that is played/aired the most
number of times in the promos.
>
> If your assertion was even remotely correct, Himesh Reshammiya
> would never have become as big a hit as he has.
>
Himesh's popularity also has a lot to do with his visibility in roles
*other than* music director's. The facts that he sang most of his hit
songs himself and that his face is on TV every week (if not more
often) as a judge of singing competiotions has helped his popularity
too.
> It is the "fans" of musical celebrities that make their favorite
> celebrity's
> "average to below average" stuff popular and successful. This is
> true for RDB as much as it is for Lata.
>
Again, I think it is the media and the marketing glitz of movie
producers that sells you the wrong stuff, not the fans. More often
than not the most popular song of an album is not its best song. And I
think without those who I would rather call 'serious listeners' of an
MD there's a good chance that some of those gems would remain hidden
forever.
All IMHO.
Vinay
> -UVR.
Ketan
sm0...@gmail.com says...
Sami,
>RDB was "ahead of his times" because he was churning out trash in the
>70s that wasn't supposed to hit the air waves until the 90s or
>2000s! :-)
Back when I visited your university polymers lab in 1995, I had found two tapes
of Kishore lying there. I had said back then that you must have been inhaling
too many chemicals to have given up on Rafi this openly. Your above statement
tells me you still haven't given up this addiction. :)
>I love RDB's music but can't understand all the recent hype
>surrounding him - I'm not referring to this thread but to the hype in
>the media about his music. Sure, he was great, but so were several
>others before him. As someone pointed out the other day, he didn't
>take part in the "real derby." Not his fault for sure, but we'll never
>find out how he would've stacked up against the big boys of the 50s
>and early 60s.
Firstly, the question asked by you is similar to the ones expert have asked on
whether Bradman would never have survived in one-day cricket or Tendulkar in an
era of uncovered pitches and no body armour. This comparison of the ages is
about as relevant as taking part in a fantasy league. Sure it is a good exercise
for the mind, but what does it prove?
Secondly, what IS the "real derby"? 50's? 60's? 40s? Why not ask how S-J, MM,
OPN, Khayyam, Roshan, SalilC and others would have stacked up in the real derby
against the likes of Gyan Dutt, Khemchand Prakash, and Pankaj Mullick and Anil
Biswas in their hay days.As I have said long ago in another thread, what RD did
was to CHANGE the rules of the derby. As did S-J when they burst on the scene.
As did ARR when he came on the scene.
RD was around from 1961 and composing regularly from 1965. Most of the other
old-timers were still around. Apparently S-J thought he was good enough for them
to personally convince Shammi to stick with him for Teesri Manzil much to Nasir
Hussain's relief. And he delivered. He forced other composers to start thinking
like him. It's not RD's fault that he forced some MD's into retirement.
Obviously the likes of MM and Salil could withstand the RD onslaught. Maybe they
were just better MDs. As K-A and L-P showed, there was a market for even their
(non-RD) music.
By extension it is not the fault of Anand-Milind (whom RD recommended for QSQT
over Nasir Hussain's objection this time around), or Nadeem-Shravan to run RD
out of the derby too. Times change, tastes change. Which is why it is silly to
ask how Himesh would have stacked up against R C Boral?
>There was some argument about RDB not being popular in the small towns
>and rural India. While I don't agree with this statement, I do feel
>that RDB's music seldom had that rustic and folksy touch even when the
>situation demanded it. Even songs like "Aaao jhoomen gaaen..." (Paraya
>Dhan) and "Rut hai milan ki...." (Mela?) have a western touch. To
How is "Sun Champa Sun Tara"(Apna Desh-RDB) any less rustic than say "Maine
Dekha tune dekha(Dushman-LP)? They are both equally atrocious.
>borrow an idea from Yousuf Bhai (that infamous line to Lata decades
>back), RDB ke gaanon me (aksar)burger aur pizza ki bo (smell) aati
>hai.
Your own pet MD--Naushad was forced to take on an RDB campwallah, like Kersi
Lord for his "Saathi" to give his music some pizza(z). Need I say more?
Ketan
Ketan
So Soooorrrrreeeeeee!
>In article <1181463935.7...@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
>sm0...@gmail.com says...
>Firstly, the question asked by you is similar to the ones expert have asked on
>whether Bradman would never have survived in one-day cricket or Tendulkar in an
Change "never" to "ever"
Ketan
sm0...@gmail.com
*Sigh* Looks like Copernicus is yet to reach this group of fans who
still believe that the universe is RDB-centric. Let me explain who
Yousuf Bhai is in a language referenced to RDB: Yousuf Bhai is the
actor on whom "Maangi thhi ek dua jo KHubool ho gaee...." was
picturized.
And if you start reading with *your* eyes open (and the mind too),
you'll discover that nobody was subscribing to Yousuf Bhai's views.
Poor Yousuf Bhai, as far as I know, has never expressed his views on
this subject at all.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
PalaTke su-e-chaman, dekhne se kya hoga
Woh shaaKH hi na rahi, jo thhi aashiaan ke lie
Yousuf Bhai, singing Abdul Bhai's lyrics in Dastan
Sunil Dandekar
> Dandekar says...
>
> >On Jun 8, 11:17 pm, Vinay <v9y....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> By all means, please do. Who am I to stop you? But you are probably
> >> doing it in a wrong thread. I suggest you read the thread from the
> >> beginning. You are missing the point of the exercise.
>
> >You calculate the most successfully productive years using your
> >methodology. I am not comfortable with that. I bring my views to
> >discussion. Instead of dealing with them on their merit you start
> >labling them as irrelevant and non sequiturs or whatever. If they are
> >irrelevant, why do you bother to respond?
>
> Au contraire it is you who insists on discussing things that only fit the
> conclusions you like. Even if what is being discussed is miles away from your
> agenda. Instead of responding to the question asked, you keep shoving your
> tangential and irrelevant statements. Vinay is right--please read the original
> question posed again..and again..and again.
Ah the man who understood RDB is here! Now a judge, no less.
> >In effect you do not want to discuss anything else than your
> >prescribed method for coming to conclusions you like. Sorry, can not
> >oblige you.
I suppose what you are writing above is very much relevant to the
thread and you do not have any agenda.
>
> I wish you would stick to not obliging us. You keep going back on your word.
> Once again, Abhijit's question is very clear and outline the terms of THIS
> debate. If you want to have a debate on different terms start another thread. No
> one's stopping you. Stop pushing your terms on THIS debate and accusing us of
> skullduggery because the outcome is not to your liking.
I do not hold you responsible for anything you write. I know you just
can't help it.
>You did something very
> similar just a few months ago when you were railing at the interpretation of the
> word "sb". When UVR/Afzal saab took pains to clarify your mistake, off you went
> on a tangent arguing and challenging linguists in a language you yourself have
> claimed you know nothing about simply because you ended up with egg on your
> face. Next time scrape it off, make an omlette and eat that. Khali-pili apun ka
> dimaag kaiko khata hai?
I don't expect you to understand everything that I write. If you are
so worried about your dimaag, why not stop reading my posts? No, but
then that would not give you satisfaction of taking pot-shots at me
hiding behind somebody's shoulder?
In all your rejoinders you prefer to write more about what you think
of me than what I have written. I wonder what the reason for this
fascination is. I must be doing something right after all, all this
hate and jealousy can not be without any reason.
>
> Ketan
>
> P.S: Jesus, quick someone give me an award for civility and basic decency for
> the sheer number of 4, 5, 6... letter words I had typed to describe Sunil and
> have now deleted before posting this.
I am happy that you learned something from the horse's mouth
incidence. But please understand, virtue is a reward in itself.
regards,
Sunil
sm0...@gmail.com
> Back when I visited your university polymers lab in 1995, I had found two tapes
Man, it has already been more than a decade!
> of Kishore lying there. I had said back then that you must have been inhaling
> too many chemicals to have given up on Rafi this openly. Your above statement
> tells me you still haven't given up this addiction. :)
For me, it's my rozi-roti. What's your excuse? :-)
> >take part in the "real derby." Not his fault for sure, but we'll never
> >find out how he would've stacked up against the big boys of the 50s
> >and early 60s.
>
> Firstly, the question asked by you is similar to the ones expert have asked on
> whether Bradman would never have survived in one-day cricket or Tendulkar in an
> era of uncovered pitches and no body armour. This comparison of the ages is
> about as relevant as taking part in a fantasy league. Sure it is a good exercise
> for the mind, but what does it prove?
It doesn't prove anything. I was only wondering if RDB would've
survived when the competition was intense with the big boys at their
peak. After Chhote Nawaab, he really didn't really "make it" until
the big names were on the wane. One can argue that RDB was the cause
for the others' decline. But most of the MDs had already had a long
innings. Very few can play a long innings like SDB.
> How is "Sun Champa Sun Tara"(Apna Desh-RDB) any less rustic than say "Maine
> Dekha tune dekha(Dushman-LP)? They are both equally atrocious.
I personally like them both, although I prefer the latter. I saw Apna
Desh (terrible move!) for the sake of "Kajra lagaake..." This is
another RDB creation with the pizza aroma although it has bijuri and
jaiyyo toppings.
> >borrow an idea from Yousuf Bhai (that infamous line to Lata decades
> >back), RDB ke gaanon me (aksar)burger aur pizza ki bo (smell) aati
> >hai.
>
> Your own pet MD--Naushad was forced to take on an RDB campwallah, like Kersi
> Lord for his "Saathi" to give his music some pizza(z). Need I say more?
Et tu, Brute? Looks like a common tactic for the KKKlan, eh? Another
Klansman seems to have indulged in this practice of shooting the
messenger's fav. MD. You guys need better recruits. What's the
relevance of Naushad employing Kersi Bhai to this discussion? If
anything, it reinforces my point about the burgers and pizza.
Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
> Ketan
Ketan
Dandekar says...
>In all your rejoinders you prefer to write more about what you think
>of me than what I have written. I wonder what the reason for this
>fascination is. I must be doing something right after all, all this
>hate and jealousy can not be without any reason.
Hate? Jealousy? Hmm...yes that must be it. How did I ever miss those two? Here I
was busy concentrating on dislike and envy. You said it better and that too with
one more letter than I was using. Wow! You must be a whiz at scrabble.
Here's a little secret..the day your posts have some meaningful sensible
content, is the day you might get a meaningful rejoinder from us. Till then you
are just a poor imitator of Seinfeld--entire episodes about nothing.
>I am happy that you learned something from the horse's mouth
>incidence. But please understand, virtue is a reward in itself.
BWAHHHAHHHHHAAAAAHHHAA! You seriously think THAT was what prompted me not to
write the choice words? It's good to see atleast you think highly of yourself.
Oh wait..but that would make it straight from the horse's mouth and we know you
don't agree with what comes from the horse's mouth. So you can't think highly of
yourself. Or can you?
Ketan
kcp
> Just remove RDB from Kishore's repertoire, and you can
> yourself see what remains.
I wouldn't call anything 'what remains' that I haven't seen or heard
of.
KCP
kcp
>
> > 1) Why do people continue to claim that he was sidelined, ignored,
> > without work, underappreciated etc etc ? From your list you seem to
> > indicate that even his B and C-graders were successful.
>
> Fan-speak aside, when people or fans say that he was without workand
> all, they are talking about the last ten to twelve years of his life.
I am surprised with you Vinay !! you can figure out how many films and
non-film-songs, he composed, in each year, from "your own" website !!
The "number" of songs composed speak for themselves. I find atleast 2
gems in each album/film he composed in the last 10-12 years of his
life ( fan-speak aside )
KCP
Asif
>
> *Sigh* Looks like Copernicus is yet to reach this group of fans who
> still believe that the universe is RDB-centric. Let me explain who
> Yousuf Bhai is in a language referenced to RDB: Yousuf Bhai is the
> actor on whom "Maangi thhi ek dua jo KHubool ho gaee...." was
> picturized.
>
> And if you start reading with *your* eyes open (and the mind too),
> you'll discover that nobody was subscribing to Yousuf Bhai's views.
> Poor Yousuf Bhai, as far as I know, has never expressed his views on
> this subject at all.
>
> Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)
>
> PalaTke su-e-chaman, dekhne se kya hoga
> Woh shaaKH hi na rahi, jo thhi aashiaan ke lie
>
> Yousuf Bhai, singing Abdul Bhai's lyrics in Dastan
Sami Sahab:
I did not know you were referring to the actor popularly known (at
least to me) as Yusuf Saab (not Yousuf Bhai). I did not mean to say
anything personal about you. Anyway, I do not think he has the brain
to pick out good music and whatever he might have said about Lata was
silly too. So, NOW, I won't be surprised if he says what you made up
(pizza and burger smells). But, I was really surprised to read
whatever you made up, especially since you claim to understand music
and that too of Naushad!
Do songs of Parichay (1972), Mehbooba (1976), Kinara (1977), Karm
(1977), and Kudrat (1980) reek of "pizza and burger" to you and your
late Naushad Saab? And what did Naushad Saab smell in 'Mere jeevan
saathi' and 'Ye kaun aaya', both from Saathi (1968), after he finally
composed them? baajre kii roTii aur sarso.N kaa saag?
Asif
UVR
> On Jun 11, 2:15 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> > > In general, I think most people listen to music without realising
> > > which MD or lyricist has composed it. More people know about the
> > > singers, but even those are a small percentage or total listeners.
> > > Fans of any musical celebrity are a minority and cannot make an album
> > > hit on their own.
>
> > Whaaaaaaaat? You can't be serious!
>
> > If your assertion was even remotely correct, Himesh Reshammiya
> > would never have become as big a hit as he has.
>
> > It is the "fans" of musical celebrities that make their favorite
> > celebrity's
> > "average to below average" stuff popular and successful. This is
> > true for RDB as much as it is for Lata.
>
> > -UVR.
>
> Not really, UVR Sahab. 5 of my friends and I tried to make Bade Dil
> Wala (1982) album a hit (when it was released), but it did not work.
> It sank without a trace. Not that the album was average (it was
> excellent), but we failed to make it a hit.
>
The above seems to be implying that "5 of your friends and yourself"
were the only true "fans" RDB had left in 1982 (or at least when Bade
Dil Wala was released)! If that's the case, you're not describing RDB
as a very good MD at all -- I mean, 6 fans is a very sorry figure.
I will unequivocatingly agree that 6 people can't make any album
successful by themselves.
> The "fans" of a musical celebrities only sustain the celebrities' work
> over a long time, but they never succeeded to make it a hit (when it
> was released) on their own.
It depends on how many fans you have and how "fervent" they are.
This is why I feel that RDB never had the fan following that you guys
are making him out to have had. This doesn't necessarily mean
he was a bad MD or that he wasn't talented -- please note!
> A vast majority of others (and I am
> talking about at least pre-1990) hardly initially knew who composed
> the songs they loved at first sound. Try to recall your childhood and
> boyhood days and see how much you and others (especially the less-
> privileged folks) knew about a song when it first appealed to you.
>
Sure, point taken. However, children are seldom the people who
can make anything a success. At least they weren't in the India
of the 70s and 80s (even 90s). If you are saying that RDBs fan
base was mostly children at that time, then you're also saying
that grown-ups didn't form a large part of his fan base. So what
are you saying about the quality/popularity/success of RDB's
music or of his "productivity" (defined in the sense it's used in
the subject of this thread.
> Let me give you two examples from my own childhood:
>
> 1) I FIRST listened to 'Salaam-e-ishq meri jaan' (Muqaddar Ka
> Sikandar, 1978) on a weekly Binaca Geet Mala show and loved it. I
> listened to it for on at least 4 more weekly shows before I found out
> it was composed by KA (all 4 weeks I missed the film's name). I
> hardly listened to other radio shows those days because of school
> work, so I did not know much about the song. It was a pleasant
> surprise to me that the song was from the film that had a few other
> songs that had really regaled me. So, essentially, I made the song a
> hit (by wanting to listen to it more and more) without knowing much
> about it.
>
> 2) I FIRST listened to 'Toone o rangeele kaisa jaadu kiya' (Kudrat,
> 1980) again on a weekly Binaca Geet Mala show and loved it. And again
> I did not get to know its MD for at least 3-4 weeks, but I figured it
> was LP. Not that I hate any particular MD from pre-1985 period. I
> love any song that appeals to me, no matter who composed it. But when
> I finally found out 'Toone o rangeele' was by RDB, I jumped out of
> surprise. Such a melodic, rustic, upbeat song, and I had missed the
> RD touch in it for 4 weeks. Nevertheless, my fascination for it did
> not change, LP or RDB. It was a hit for me.
>
> Asif
It is fascinating to read you reminiscing about your childhood
because it reminds me of my own. However, I hated "salaam-
e-'ishq meri jaan" when it came out and have nothing nice to
say about it even today. I did like "tune o rangeele kaisa jaadu
kiya" (but I liked "hameN tum se pyaar kitna" [Kishore's] much
better). Anyway, by 1980 I had already developed a preference
for songs from the 50s and 60s. So, let's not go by personal
preferences. Even back in 1980, I would have preferred to
listen to "jaan-e-man ik nazar dekh le" (Mere Mehboob) over
"salaam-e-ishq meri jaan". And in case you're wondering,
I too am a "product of the 70s and 80s", just like you.
-UVR.
Ketan
sm0...@gmail.com says...
>It doesn't prove anything. I was only wondering if RDB would've
>survived when the competition was intense with the big boys at their
>peak. After Chhote Nawaab, he really didn't really "make it" until
>the big names were on the wane. One can argue that RDB was the cause
>for the others' decline. But most of the MDs had already had a long
>innings. Very few can play a long innings like SDB.
So I take it you are suggesting that the peak period was 55-60? Isn't it a bit
unfair to hold RDB responsible for not being old enough to be an independent
composer in that time period for things he had NO control over, like his birth?
But why judge RD for that? You are now comparing RD's 70s Western influenced
music and wondering if he would have survived with that during the 50s? Isn't
this a bit bizarre? How could he have composed anything in the 50s with music
that came out in the West in the 60s and 70s? If he had been around in the 50s,
he would have composed music according to the style prevalent then. Would he
have succeeded? The closest we get is to looking at the career of his father who
did manage to switch from complete folk to filmi.
Considering this is all a game of conjecture, we need to look at other
elements--such as creativity, ability to learn new things and see if those would
have helped him get thru the 50s. On those issues we know he was at the top of
the class. He constantly kept learning and improving and till the early-to-mid
80s with good results. Then mid 80s onwards he started learning bad things from
the likes of Bappi with disastorous results. The same thing, I dare say happened
to S-J from the mid 60s onwards. When they started repeating the stuff RD was
doing in the late 60s, their music too had disastorous results. Part of the
result is that both S-J and RD, 20 years apart, tried too hard to hang onto the
basics which had carried them this far, while furiously incorporating the new
styles and sounds. The resulting mish-mash became cacophony. When they went back
to the basics--RD for Ijaazaat, 1942ALS, and SJ for Teesri Kasam, Mera Naam
Joker--the results were definitely better. Unfortunately for both S-J and RD,
that last burst of glory came too late. One reason why I am willing to cut RD
some slack(though not a lot) is that the nature of the movies changed entirely
in the 80s. What little romance there was, went out of the window with the likes
of Dr. Dang and Mogambo ruling the themes. RD switched over to composing music
that was relevant to those movies(if at all there can be any relevant music for
such movies) and was caught wrong-footed when the theme suddenly jumped back to
the love-stories with QSQT and MPK. S-J had no such excuse. In their case the
theme never changed. Only the actors did from the likes of Shammi Kapoor,
Rajendra Kumar and Raj Kapoor to Rajesh Khanna and Dharmendra.
>> How is "Sun Champa Sun Tara"(Apna Desh-RDB) any less rustic than say "Maine
>> Dekha tune dekha(Dushman-LP)? They are both equally atrocious.
>
>I personally like them both, although I prefer the latter. I saw Apna
>Desh (terrible move!) for the sake of "Kajra lagaake..." This is
>another RDB creation with the pizza aroma although it has bijuri and
>jaiyyo toppings.
Egad! You have been tasting the chemicals, not just inhaling them.
>> Your own pet MD--Naushad was forced to take on an RDB campwallah, like Kersi
>> Lord for his "Saathi" to give his music some pizza(z). Need I say more?
>relevance of Naushad employing Kersi Bhai to this discussion? If
>anything, it reinforces my point about the burgers and pizza.
Point being that Naushad (and a host of other MDs) suddenly liked the bo(smell)
of pizza enough to get Kersi Bhai in. I doubt if even Tony Soprano could have
gotten all these guys to alter their culinary habits towards that of his mother
country this suddenly. But then Tony woulda approved of what RD did to these
guys--what a whacking!
Ketan
UVR
> On Jun 11, 2:15 am, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 10, 5:54 pm, Vinay <v9y....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > In general, I think most people listen to music without realising
> > > which MD or lyricist has composed it. More people know about the
> > > singers, but even those are a small percentage or total listeners.
> > > Fans of any musical celebrity are a minority and cannot make an album
> > > hit on their own.
>
> > Whaaaaaaaat? You can't be serious!
>
> Umm, I may be wrong, but I was serious. I agree that times have
> changed. The visibility that an MD gets nowadays has increased
> manifold. Nadeem-Shravan made a remarkable difference when they
> insisted on putting their pictures on every cassette/CD cover of their
> albums. Since then things have only got better for those MDs who want
> to be in the limelight.
>
> Despite all that, even in this age, I think a much larger portion of
> listeners do not take more than a cursory interest in who the MD of an
> album is. Most listeners cannot identify between a SEL's song from a
> Vishal-Shekhar's. As I said, more people would be able to identify or
> remember the singers, however.
>
>
Excuse me for saying so but all this is a red herring. Your
statement was -- "fans of a celebrity [read RDB] cannot make
an album a hit on their own". To discuss the validity of this
conjecture, only the activities of the fans are relevant. We
are not interested in analyzing how the average film music
listener listens to music. In particular, it is wholly irrelevant
that "most people" do not care who the MD of a song is. We
are only focussing on "fans of an MD", and it is to be assumed
that if these fans are 'real fans', then they have a sufficiently
abiding interest in the works of their favorite MD that they will
follow his output closely and KNOW his work.
So, did RDB have a fan following that was avid and "paagal"
enough to make his "below par" work also successful? It
seems not. Certainly not when he was alive. OTOH, it seems
that MDs who had a long innings in HFM (SDB, S-J) did have
such fan following.
Infact, I contend that the true measure of a successful MD is
not only how many successful albums s/he turned out in a
short period (~5 years), but also how long their innings
lasted. Merely considering one factor or the other doesn't
give the correct picture.
>
> > If your assertion was even remotely correct, Himesh Reshammiya
> > would never have become as big a hit as he has.
>
> Himesh's popularity also has a lot to do with his visibility in roles
> *other than* music director's. The facts that he sang most of his hit
> songs himself and that his face is on TV every week (if not more
> often) as a judge of singing competiotions has helped his popularity
> too.
>
I don't get it. Are you saying that most of Himesh's songs
are popular *BECAUSE* he has sung them? That is an
argument in favor of "fans can make an MD successful"
because (as we all know) the fellow can't sing for nuts.
Yes, Himesh markets himself like anything. But Himesh's
fans are less "rabid" than the RDB fans I have encountered.
If you tell a Himesh fan you think Himesh is a loser, he
will likely leave you alone saying, "dude, you don't know
what you're talking about." If you say to an RDB fan that
you don't like RDB's music, first they'll slap you in your
face, then they'll follow you home and murder you in your
sleep! :)
And yet these fans were not powerful enough to turn
everything their "Boss" touched into gold. Go figure.
> > It is the "fans" of musical celebrities that make their favorite
> > celebrity's
> > "average to below average" stuff popular and successful. This is
> > true for RDB as much as it is for Lata.
>
> Again, I think it is the media and the marketing glitz of movie
> producers that sells you the wrong stuff, not the fans.
So, are you saying that producers of RDB's films didn't have
enough interest in marketing/publicizing/pushing their own
films? That sounds weird to me.
> More often
> than not the most popular song of an album is not its best song. And I
> think without those who I would rather call 'serious listeners' of an
> MD there's a good chance that some of those gems would remain hidden
> forever.
>
I thought we were trying to research the most "successfully
productive period" of an MD, and I thought I read somewhere
in this thread that "success" and "productivity" had something
to do with how many songs became popular. Where did the
question of "best song" or "liked by serious listeners" come
into the picture. The fact is that you are looking for the MD
who gave the most number of HITS (= populist) over a period
of time. Those things are only possible if
- MD gives music that is liked by a wide section of the current
audience (so "bees saal aage kaa music dena" is not
going to cut it).
- MD gets lots of fans
- MD *holds on* to the fan base by continuously marching with
the times and keeping himself current (keeping his fans pleased)
- Producers of MD's films use media/marketing machinery
effectively even in the face of average/below average music.
-UVR.
Abhay Jain
"KKKing" <quo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1181576852.2...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Hmmmm - "bazaru voice" (implying she is whore) - new interpretation.
Do whores really have to know how to sing?.
Ritu
> On Jun 11, 9:59 am, Vinay <v9y....@gmail.com> wrote:
> what you're talking about." If you say to an RDB fan that
> you don't like RDB's music, first they'll slap you in your
> face, then they'll follow you home and murder you in your
> sleep! :)
>
Not so easy, not so easy...death shan't give you respite till you have
conceed that RD was God and ofcourse Kishore was God's best friend
(the above order can change depending upon the flavour of the fan.. if
it is RD-KK or KK-RD).
And yes, another thing......before you are knocked off you would have
to sign a contract that once you reach hell you will give Naushad a
strong kick for never having used KKKing (I mean KK the King) 'no
matter what the situation' and also for conking off before a fit of
senility could consume him to say that 'Agar wo mere se chota nahin
hota to main usko pranam kar leta'
As far as Yousuf Bhai is concerned......Poor Man he has already
incurred the wrath of the loRD.. his bunglow is being razed to the
ground!
Cheers
Ritu
P.S In RDBs 'most productive period for any MD ever' don't forget to
count all the songs he ghost composed for his cud-chewing, football
friendly, heart-attack ridden father.. truly brilliant :).
Vinay
What am I missing here? I said that much about RDB - that he did not
have such a fan following to make his "below par" work successful. I
don't think fans do that, but that is besides the point.
At the same time, I don't think you have provided any reason to
believe that S-J or SDB had such powerful fans. I don't think they (or
anyone else for that matter) had. Because If they did, they would
never have given a flop album. nahii.n?
> Infact, I contend that the true measure of a successful MD is
> not only how many successful albums s/he turned out in a
> short period (~5 years), but also how long their innings
> lasted. Merely considering one factor or the other doesn't
> give the correct picture.
>
>
OK. But hold on. Who is talking about a "successful MD"? This thread
was specifically about a 5-year period. Period. Nowhere did I say that
RDB was the most successful MD ever. Why is so hard to see what this
thread is (or at least was when it started) about?
>
> > > If your assertion was even remotely correct, Himesh Reshammiya
> > > would never have become as big a hit as he has.
>
> > Himesh's popularity also has a lot to do with his visibility in roles
> > *other than* music director's. The facts that he sang most of his hit
> > songs himself and that his face is on TV every week (if not more
> > often) as a judge of singing competiotions has helped his popularity
> > too.
>
> I don't get it. Are you saying that most of Himesh's songs
> are popular *BECAUSE* he has sung them? That is an
> argument in favor of "fans can make an MD successful"
> because (as we all know) the fellow can't sing for nuts.
>
> Yes, Himesh markets himself like anything. But Himesh's
> fans are less "rabid" than the RDB fans I have encountered.
> If you tell a Himesh fan you think Himesh is a loser, he
> will likely leave you alone saying, "dude, you don't know
> what you're talking about." If you say to an RDB fan that
> you don't like RDB's music, first they'll slap you in your
> face, then they'll follow you home and murder you in your
> sleep! :)
>
When did you meet Ketan :)? Naah, I don't believe that. You need to
meet more RDB fans. Himesh and RDB is not a fair comparison anyway, as
one is a current superstar and the other one is dead for about 15
years. Himesh's fans are way way more in number than RDB's (and
beware, they are more violent too ;)).
> And yet these fans were not powerful enough to turn
> everything their "Boss" touched into gold. Go figure.
>
I already figured and laid that out very plainly for you. They were
not powerful enough. They *are* not powerful or numerous enough. They
can't even get an album of unreleased songs of RDB released based on
their number strength, despite efforts from right, left, and center.
Even today.
> > > It is the "fans" of musical celebrities that make their favorite
> > > celebrity's
> > > "average to below average" stuff popular and successful. This is
> > > true for RDB as much as it is for Lata.
>
> > Again, I think it is the media and the marketing glitz of movie
> > producers that sells you the wrong stuff, not the fans.
>
> So, are you saying that producers of RDB's films didn't have
> enough interest in marketing/publicizing/pushing their own
> films? That sounds weird to me.
>
I was talking about songs. The "average to below average" stuff in an
album is promoted at the expense of better songs in the same album by
the producers, not the fans. They may have all the interest in the
world, but the way media promotion works (and worked), one or two
songs take precedence and become the "selling" points of the albums.
They are not necessarily (and often are not) the best songs.
> > More often
> > than not the most popular song of an album is not its best song. And I
> > think without those who I would rather call 'serious listeners' of an
> > MD there's a good chance that some of those gems would remain hidden
> > forever.
>
> I thought we were trying to research the most "successfully
> productive period" of an MD,
Aah, were we? I believe we lost that thought when you took a general,
out-of-context-with-this thread, and I-thought statement of mine and
doubted that. Here's what I wrote in one of my responses to an earlier
poster:
"In general, I think most people listen to music without realising
which MD or lyricist has composed it. More people know about the
singers, but even those are a small percentage or total listeners.
Fans of any musical celebrity are a minority and cannot make an album
hit on their own."
You took this piece out of the whole post and disagreeing with me,
wrote:
'It is the "fans" of musical celebrities that make their favorite
celebrity's "average to below average" stuff popular and
successful.'
Well, it was about that since then for me.
> and I thought I read somewhere
> in this thread that "success" and "productivity" had something
> to do with how many songs became popular. Where did the
> question of "best song" or "liked by serious listeners" come
> into the picture.
So in the light of quoted words above, you can easily see how that
came into picture.
> The fact is that you are looking for the MD
> who gave the most number of HITS (= populist) over a period
> of time. Those things are only possible if
>
Sigh, so *now* you want to start again? Well, let's see.
> - MD gives music that is liked by a wide section of the current
> audience (so "bees saal aage kaa music dena" is not
> going to cut it).
I think RD's music was liked by a wide section of the then current
audience in the 1971-75 period. Do you have any evidence to the
contrary?
> - MD gets lots of fans
I think RD did. He had and has a lot of fans. At this point of time
more than probably any other MD who is dead. For data, check the sales
figures of his albums or Orkut groups :).
> - MD *holds on* to the fan base by continuously marching with
> the times and keeping himself current (keeping his fans pleased)
RDB kept his fans pleased enough (thank you for asking). His fan base
not only held on but expanded in a phenomenal way after his death (at
which point of time he stopped keeping himself current). I don't have
the faintest idea, however, how this point effect the fact that during
1971-1975 he produced an enormous number of successful scores.
> - Producers of MD's films use media/marketing machinery
> effectively even in the face of average/below average music.
What? I give up. I think I am tired. It stopped making sense to me.
Vinay
>
> -UVR.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sunil Dandekar
> In article <1181627129.739074.94...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Sunil
> Dandekar says...
>
> >In all your rejoinders you prefer to write more about what you think
> >of me than what I have written. I wonder what the reason for this
> >fascination is. I must be doing something right after all, all this
> >hate and jealousy can not be without any reason.
>
> Hate? Jealousy? Hmm...yes that must be it. How did I ever miss those two? Here I
> was busy concentrating on dislike and envy. You said it better and that too with
> one more letter than I was using. Wow! You must be a whiz at scrabble.
As usual what you want to say here is clear only to you. What is clear
to me is frustration of a somebody who has not had a single original
thought to contribute in this newsgroup. Revelling in being abusive to
others and writing long rambling meaningless posts which are only
reactive can be often less than satisfying. However I do see value in
that role too.
> Here's a little secret..the day your posts have some meaningful sensible
> content, is the day you might get a meaningful rejoinder from us. Till then you
> are just a poor imitator of Seinfeld--entire episodes about nothing.
The day you find my posts meaningful I will go in depression. I am
glad that you admit that your rejoinders are meaningless.
> >I am happy that you learned something from the horse's mouth
> >incidence. But please understand, virtue is a reward in itself.
>
> BWAHHHAHHHHHAAAAAHHHAA! You seriously think THAT was what prompted me not to
> write the choice words? It's good to see atleast you think highly of yourself.
> Oh wait..but that would make it straight from the horse's mouth and we know you
> don't agree with what comes from the horse's mouth. So you can't think highly of
> yourself. Or can you?
My genius buddy, after all the Ramayan! Here it is again in a very
simplified form, what comes from horses mouth is not *necessarily*
true, it has to be interpreted in light of the horse's action. Can you
bend your mind around that? After the horse episode did you go around
believing all along that people say what they don't believe? Must have
been tough on you. Sorry to have left gaps in your knowledge.
I think in our last adventure together I got you to agree to something
that both of us were comfortable with. This time I got you to agree
that your rejoinders are meaningless. Where do you want to go now?
A word of caution for you buddy. You start using your favourite 4-5-6
letter words and this time I report abuse. Got it?
cheers,
Sunil
kcp
> On Jun 12, 5:22 pm, UVR <u...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 11, 9:59 am, Vinay <v9y....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > what you're talking about." If you say to an RDB fan that
> > you don't like RDB's music, first they'll slap you in your
> > face, then they'll follow you home and murder you in your
> > sleep! :)
>
> Not so easy, not so easy...death shan't give you respite till you have
> conceed that RD was God and ofcourse Kishore was God's best friend
> (the above order can change depending upon the flavour of the fan.. if
> it is RD-KK or KK-RD).
>
I would not sleep well if I do not kill a person, who says that
Kishore was God's ( read the God here, one who cud-chews, is football
friendly etc ) best "chela" - ok happy Ritu ? ;)
> And yes, another thing......before you are knocked off you would have
> to sign a contract that once you reach hell
Good luck to you Ritu...I want to be with Kishore & RD :-)
> you will give Naushad a
> strong kick for never having used KKKing (I mean KK the King) 'no
> matter what the situation'
I have pardoned Naushad for accepting and declaring Kishore, as one of
the best singers, after Kishore sang under Naushad, for the first and
only time. Or else a kick would have been a dream for me since I dont
intend to go to hell, where Naushad belongs (according to you, mind
you !! ) :P
> and also for conking off before a fit of
> senility could consume him to say that 'Agar wo mere se chota nahin
> hota to main usko pranam kar leta'
Ohhh dont get so frustrated Ritu !! or else you will not believe
anything that the great souls have said, ever !!
>
> As far as Yousuf Bhai is concerned......Poor Man he has already
> incurred the wrath of the loRD.. his bunglow is being razed to the
> ground!
Jaisi karni waisi bharni !!
> Cheers
> Ritu
>
> P.S In RDBs 'most productive period for any MD ever' don't forget to
> count all the songs he ghost composed for his cud-chewing, football
> friendly, heart-attack ridden father.. truly brilliant :).
Naaah !!! in his most productive period, we all know that RD was never
assiting his father !!!
Cool down Ritu !!
KCP
Ketan
Responding to several posts at once:
In article <1181683346....@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, UVR says...
>So, did RDB have a fan following that was avid and "paagal"
>enough to make his "below par" work also successful? It
>seems not. Certainly not when he was alive. OTOH, it seems
>that MDs who had a long innings in HFM (SDB, S-J) did have
>such fan following.
One other thing you need to take into account is the different ages of the fans
of an MD. For some of us who grew up with RDB in the early 70s, his late 80s
work sucks. Yet there are enough RD fans out there, who were born in the late
70s and early 80s for whom RD’s late 80s-early 90s music is as good if not
better than his earlier output. What do you say to someone who says 1942-ALS is
in the top 3 of his all time favourite albums? If these youngsters had the
purchasing power, they might have made even what we ‘buzurgs’ thing as RD’s
below par work, successful. They would probably rate Parichay, Amar Prem etc as
below par as some of them indeed do.
Isn’t this the same with S-J? A few of us who were not even born think
soundtracks like Love in Tokyo, Suraj, Rajkumar etc are great, whereas the likes
of Ashok who grew up with S-J in the early 50s think they are atrocious.
>I don't get it. Are you saying that most of Himesh's songs
>are popular *BECAUSE* he has sung them? That is an
>argument in favor of "fans can make an MD successful"
>because (as we all know) the fellow can't sing for nuts.
Again, that’s a personal opinion. YOU think he can’t sing for nuts. I think he
can—for nuts only, not for money. Yet he gets the money since a lot of people
like the way he brays. To my horror I found people in our age group who
actually like his singing and music. As Satishji says—to each his own.
>So, are you saying that producers of RDB's films didn't have
>enough interest in marketing/publicizing/pushing their own
>films? That sounds weird to me.
Yes. And why is it weird to you? It happens all the time. Kishore didn’t market
or heavily publicize “Lookochuri” from what I have read. He wanted it to fail so
that he could get a tax write off. Unfortunately for him, word-of-mouth made the
movie popular. I was in Bombay and I can’t recollect promos of movies like
“Shiva” or “Musafir”.
In article <1181701029.4...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, Vinay
says...
>> Yes, Himesh markets himself like anything. But Himesh's
>> fans are less "rabid" than the RDB fans I have encountered.
>> If you tell a Himesh fan you think Himesh is a loser, he
>> will likely leave you alone saying, "dude, you don't know
>> what you're talking about." If you say to an RDB fan that
>> you don't like RDB's music, first they'll slap you in your
>> face, then they'll follow you home and murder you in your
>> sleep! :)
>>
>
>When did you meet Ketan :)? Naah, I don't believe that. You need to
Et tu? Firstly I would do no such thing as UVR has described. I would at the
very least poke UVR in the ribs, begging him to stop snoring. Then when his
eyelids were opening, I would raise my ski mask, say “peek a boo” and then and
only then would I plunge the sharp object in his sternum. The suggestion that I
would do any such thing while he was asleep is downright abhorrent. What do you
think I am? A barbarian? In any case don’t you have it backwards? I am the one
who gets slapped and murdered on the Pancham group for daring to say his late
80s work is bad.
In article <1181698869.9...@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, Ritu says...
>Not so easy, not so easy...death shan't give you respite till you have
>conceed that RD was God and ofcourse Kishore was God's best friend
>(the above order can change depending upon the flavour of the fan.. if
>it is RD-KK or KK-RD).
Sheesh! Ritu how long have you been on RMIM? RD is NOT God. He is LoRD. SD is
God, which would make RD “Our LoRD in Heaven, son of the eternal God” a true
statement. Please do try and get your deities lined up correctly.
Ketan
Ketan
Dandekar says...
>As usual what you want to say here is clear only to you. What is clear
>to me is frustration of a somebody who has not had a single original
>thought to contribute in this newsgroup. Revelling in being abusive to
>others and writing long rambling meaningless posts which are only
>reactive can be often less than satisfying. However I do see value in
>that role too.
Then why complain? Shut up and give me a medal for providing value added
services.
>A word of caution for you buddy. You start using your favourite 4-5-6
>letter words and this time I report abuse. Got it?
You stupid, moron, dolt. Do, take your mommy along when you report this abuse.
You might need her "pallu" to wipe your snot-faced nose and tears. Based on my
original statement, if you believe your most recent comment "what comes from
horses mouth is not *necessarily* true, it has to be interpreted in light of the
horse's action" you cannot report this as abuse, since I have not used the words
in a 4-5-6 format but in the reverse order. Now the question is--are you a
strict constructionist?
Gotta run. I hear Sergey Brin knocking on my door with a warrant.
Adios
Ketan