Beautiful song by Rafi!
Rizwan Syed
playing, I hadn't heard it in a long time, so it sounded exceptionaly pleasant.
I figured I'd share it with the rest of the Rmimers.. anyone know the pstats?
Boondein, naheen staaray, tapkay hein kehkashaa.n say..
Sadqay utar rahay hei.n, tum par yeah asmaan say...
boondei.n, naheen staaray, tapkay hein kehkashaa.n say...
Mooti kay rang rut kay, qatray damak rahay hei.n..
yaa reshmi lato.n mein, jugnoo chamak rahay hei.n..
Aanchal mein jesay bijli, konday yaha.n waha.n say.
Sadqay utar rahay hei.n, tum par yeah asmaan say...
Dekhay to koi aalam, bhigay say payrhan kaa,
paani mei.n hay yeah shula, yaa noor hay badan kaa,
Unghrhai lay rahay hei.n, armaa.n jawaa.n jawaa.n say,
Sadqay utar rahay hei.n, tum par yeah asmaan say...
Pehloo mei.n aa kay meray, kiya cheez lag rahi ho...
Baaho.n kay dairay mei.n, Tasweer lag rahi ho..
Heraan hoo.n kay tum ko, dekho.n kahaa.n kahaa.n say..
Sadqay utar rahay hei.n, tum par yeah asmaan say...
Boondei.n naheen sitaaray, tapkay hein kehkashaa.n say...
Sadqay utar rahay hei.n, tum par yeah asmaa.n say..
Boondei.n naheen sitaaray.........................
Rafi's 'adaegi' of every syllable of ever word is enough to make any KKKer
defect. *grin* I sometimes wonder HOW, Anyone could claim KK to be a
better singer? A better artist as a whole, definitely, but when it comes
to singing, I'd say if both of them were alive today, Rafi would still be
the better singer. *shrug*
Have a good weekend all.. :)
Rizwan
Ashok
>
> Rafi's 'adaegi' of every syllable of ever word is enough to make any KKKer
> defect. *grin* I sometimes wonder HOW, Anyone could claim KK to be a
> better singer? A better artist as a whole, definitely, but when it comes
> to singing, I'd say if both of them were alive today, Rafi would still be
> the better singer. *shrug*
>
> Have a good weekend all.. :)
>
> Rizwan
>
How much you might have to wonder is a function of HOW widespread your
ignorance is regarding the great songs of Kishore. *smirk*
Ashok
Suresh Mani
I can't believe it Rizwan. You posted the lyrics of the song
that I've been listening everyday for the last one month. It's
such a nice song that, it doesn't bore me even if I listen to
it 10 times in a row. And I do play it repeatatively. I've this
song ("Boonde nahin sitaren") on a CD along with other great songs
by Rafi Sahab. I think the reason I've fallen in love with this and
other similar songs is that Rafi Sahab's pronounciation is so
crisp that each and every word touches my heart. By the way the
other song that I like from the same CD is "Kahaniyan sunati hai
pawan aati jaati, ek tha diya ek baati". I'll post the CD # and title
and also lyrics for the other song as soon as possible. These songs
deserve to be placed in ITRANS song book.
Thanks for the post Rizwan, keep it up,
Rafi Bhakth,
Suresh Mani
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
I whole-heartedly second this one. *nod* Even I who like Rafi better
than Kishore cannot decisively say that Rafi is a better singer than KK
in the sixties (though Rafi had more songs, every time I hear Kishore
during this time period, I say WOW what a voice - these two had a
*taazgi* in their voice that NONE have today). Sometimes I wonder what
would have happened had Kishore not stuck to his thing of playbacking
only for Dev and himself in the sixties (of course, me being the Rafi
fan, I still woudl want Rafi to "win"). And after the early seventies
well, Kishore's voice DEFINITELY held up better than Rafi's for whatever
reason (not like Rafi was THAT much older than Kishore...though I guess
Rafi's busy schedule finally took its toll - you can see Kishore's voice
start to age towards the very end too...)
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
a RAFIan, RAFI FANatic
and all those good things
.
Senthil K Kandasamy
|> riz...@earth.sparco.com (Rizwan Syed) wrote:
|> >
|> > Rafi's 'adaegi' of every syllable of ever word is enough to make any KKKer
|> > defect. *grin* I sometimes wonder HOW, Anyone could claim KK to be a
|> ^^^^^^^^^^
|> > better singer? A better artist as a whole, definitely, but when it comes
|> > to singing, I'd say if both of them were alive today, Rafi would still be
|> > the better singer. *shrug*
|> >
|> > Have a good weekend all.. :)
|> >
|> > Rizwan
|> >
|>
|>
|> How much you might have to wonder is a function of HOW widespread your
|> ignorance is regarding the great songs of Kishore. *smirk*
|>
|>
|> Ashok
There is nothing absolute when it comes to judging singers and their
singing abilities. It is highly subjective. (No i am not even trying to start
another war here ). Rizwan must have said, "In my opinion, "I sometimes wonder HOW........". But all the articles here in RMIM are opinions of the authors
alone (and not their employers' or organization's or any body elses....).
In his opinion, Rafi is a better singer.period.
I have the same opinion as rizwan.
Arun might tend to think otherwise.
you might think that both are mediocre.
But i dont think i am ignorant regarding the great songs of kishore. I certainly
rate some of kishore's songs better than some of Rafi's . I hate listening to
most of Rafi's post-75 songs. In my opinion, they are bad. As simple as that .
If you can brand guys as *ignorant* if they are not able to *appreciate* a
particular singer's songs, then i give up here.
You have the ears for both kishore and Rafi (call it frequency, wavelength ,....
what u may.) May be u are lucky to be able to appreciate both kishore and
Rafi.
I would also like to mention ur comments from another thread.( Re: Bhoole Bisre Geet [Re: Rafi Saheb ke gaane ke BOL ). In my opinion, u had unnecesarily
criticized that song as "second rate". I love that song and rate it in par with
'Maine chaand aur....' ( no no...not just because both are Rafi songs...). UVR
has the same opinion.
A few months back, there was a long discussion about the song from Leader,
"Ek shehenshah ne banwaake hasin tajmahal..". In my opinion that was not the best song in that movie. I certainly rate the other Rafi-Lata duet from the same
movie, "Teri husn ki kya taarif karun" above this song. Others might differ.
Will differ.
The point i am trying to make here is , u have every right to express your opinions . you have every right to express your opinion that the *yeh aansoo *
song is second rate. So does Rizwan have every right to express his opinions
about singers. If you can find a qualitative difference between the two songs, so can rizwan (and many others) between two singers.
These are my opinions alone.
No flames please
Senthil
(A Rafian who loves kishore the actor, hates most of Rafi's post -75 songs,
loves some(actually quite a few:) kishore songs , rates "teri husn ki kya taarif karun" over "ek shehenshah", rates "yeh aansoo" and "maine chaand aur sitaaron" equally , ...............................)
shalini razdan
==========Rizwan Syed, 7/28/95==========
I was about to head out the door when this song came on the cassette that was
playing, I hadn't heard it in a long time, so it sounded exceptionaly
pleasant.
I figured I'd share it with the rest of the Rmimers.. anyone know the pstats?
Movie: Saajan ke Saheli
MD: LP (?)
I think the movie stars Rajendra Kumar, Nutan, Rekha and Vinod Mehra.
Boondein, naheen staaray, tapkay hein kehkashaa.n say..
Sadqay utar rahay hei.n, tum par yeah asmaan say...
boondei.n, naheen staaray, tapkay hein kehkashaa.n say...
Mooti kay rang rut kay, qatray damak rahay hei.n..
yaa reshmi lato.n mein, jugnoo chamak rahay hei.n..
Aanchal mein jesay bijli, konday yaha.n waha.n say.
Sadqay utar rahay hei.n, tum par yeah asmaan say...
Dekhay to koi aalam, bhigay say payrhan kaa,
paani mei.n hay yeah shula, yaa noor hay badan kaa,
Unghrhai lay rahay hei.n, armaa.n jawaa.n jawaa.n say,
Sadqay utar rahay hei.n, tum par yeah asmaan say...
Pehloo mei.n aa kay meray, kiya cheez lag rahi ho...
Baaho.n kay dairay mei.n, Tasweer lag rahi ho..
Heraan hoo.n kay tum ko, dekho.n kahaa.n kahaa.n say..
Sadqay utar rahay hei.n, tum par yeah asmaan say...
Boondei.n naheen sitaaray, tapkay hein kehkashaa.n say...
Sadqay utar rahay hei.n, tum par yeah asmaa.n say..
Boondei.n naheen sitaaray.........................
Rafi's 'adaegi' of every syllable of ever word is enough to make any KKKer
defect. *grin* I sometimes wonder HOW, Anyone could claim KK to be a
Kuntal Shah
shalini> I was about to
shalini> head out the door when this song came on the cassette
shalini> that was playing, I hadn't heard it in a long time, so it
shalini> sounded exceptionaly pleasant. I figured I'd share it
shalini> with the rest of the Rmimers.. anyone know the pstats?
shalini> Movie: Saajan ke Saheli MD: LP (?) I think the movie
^^
shalini> stars Rajendra Kumar, Nutan, Rekha and Vinod Mehra.
shalini> Boondein, naheen staaray, tapkay hein kehkashaa.n say..
shalini> Sadqay utar rahay hei.n, tum par yeah asmaan say...
The name of movie is "Saajan ki saheli". Funny name !
The movie was directed by Saawan Kumar. So we can simply say that
MD has to be Usha Khanna, and really that is the case.
Another good ( rather, very good ) song in this movie is :
"Jis ke liye sab ko chhoda usine mere dil ko toda
O bewfa ( 2 ) kisi aur ke saajan ki saheli ho gayi"
-Kuntal.
Rajan P. Parrikar
<deleted>
>I whole-heartedly second this one. *nod* Even I who like Rafi better
>than Kishore cannot decisively say that Rafi is a better singer than KK
>in the sixties (though Rafi had more songs, every time I hear Kishore
>during this time period, I say WOW what a voice - these two had a
An examination of Kishore's development as a singer leads one to
interesting observations. Right from his early days, he showed a
proclivity for musical expression that was out of the ordinary. This he
combined with a natural flair for drama. Both Rafi and Mukesh had the
latter but Kishore outshone them in this department even then (today's
dudes, Sanu et al., have squat of everything). But in the 50s, he was
young, his voice still boyish without the texture and bass that was to
coat it exquisitely in the years to come, and confined mostly to singing
the boomchikaa variety. The 1960s saw his voice come to fruition and
everything fell together quickly. SD Burman immediately recognised the
significance of it all and the rest is history. Notice the quality of
his voice during this time - Door Gagan ki Chaon Mein, Jhumroo, Aradhana
and so on. RD Burman also seized on this resource and took it to its
logical conclusion with Aandhi being the highlight of the 1970s.
Kishore remained in fine fettle until the very end, an opinion it seems
not shared by Sanjeev. Even as late as Thodi Si Bewafai one can savour the
grandeur of KK's voice. By the mid 80s, of course, RD was on the way out
taking with him the last guard of composing talent. It is too depressing
to even talk about what followed.
Oh before I forget: Just read that Alisha Chenoi has slapped a sexual
harassment suit on lothario Anu "have dick, will travel" Mallik.
Rajan Parrikar
==============
email: parr...@mimicad.colorado.edu
U.V Ravindra
parr...@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rajan P. Parrikar) writes:
[*snip*]
=> Kishore remained in fine fettle until the very end, an opinion it seems
=> not shared by Sanjeev. Even as late as Thodi Si Bewafai one can savour the
=> grandeur of KK's voice. By the mid 80s, of course, RD was on the way out
=> taking with him the last guard of composing talent. It is too depressing
=> to even talk about what followed.
It is difficult to accept such a statement at face value. The fact
that Kishore's voice was failing towards the end is quite obvious from
several songs in which he goes off key ... "saaNsoN se nahiN,
<something> se nahiN, muhabbat se bantee hai duniyaa" and the terrible
"de de pyaar de" song are two examples of this. Kishore had never
been this bad in his heydays. Indeed, even though I am an incurable
Rafi-an, I will say this much for KK: his voice was one of the few
"pakke-sur-waali" voices that the Hindi cine field has ever seen.
The examples I have give below may rank amongst the worst of KK songs,
but KK also goes off key in "saagar kinaare" (a so called KK gem).
Infact, I wonder if you have noticed, Dr. Rajan, but he goes off key
in "O saathi re," and "tere mere milan ki yeh raina" too, which is why
I get extremely irritated when anybody mentions it as a Kishore gem,
ahead of songs displaying his superlative voice control as "koi lauTaa
de mere beete hue din," "yeh dil na hota bechaaraa," "dukhi man mere,"
"ham haiN raahi pyaar ke," "mere saamne vaali khiD.ki meiN," "mere
bhole balam," and wonderful, priceless duet pieces like "O
nigah-e-mastaana," "yeh rateiN yeh mausam, nadee kaa kinaaraa,"
"bhola-bhola man (jhumroo)," "ganga ki lehreiN <title song>," "chhoD.
do aaNchal zamaana kyaa kahegaa," "gaataa rahe meraa dil," "koraa
kaGHaz thaa yeh man meraa" ... the list is really endless, but I can't
stop before mentioning "is moD. se jaate haiN," where KK scores
several points over Lata in voice quality.
In short, therefore, I'm sure you're quite wide off the mark when you
say that KK retained a good voice till the very end.
=> Oh before I forget: Just read that Alisha Chenoi has slapped a sexual
=> harassment suit on lothario Anu "have dick, will travel" Mallik.
=>
=> Rajan Parrikar
=> ==============
=> email: parr...@mimicad.colorado.edu
Ravindra.
A GAandhaar-DHAivat
Sivakumar Ravada
>In article <3vkjo0$e...@CUBoulder.Colorado.EDU>
>parr...@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rajan P. Parrikar) writes:
>
>[*snip*]
>
>=> Kishore remained in fine fettle until the very end, an opinion it seems
>=> not shared by Sanjeev. Even as late as Thodi Si Bewafai one can savour the
>=> grandeur of KK's voice. By the mid 80s, of course, RD was on the way out
>=> taking with him the last guard of composing talent. It is too depressing
>=> to even talk about what followed.
>
>It is difficult to accept such a statement at face value. The fact
>that Kishore's voice was failing towards the end is quite obvious from
>several songs in which he goes off key ... "saaNsoN se nahiN,
[ *snip* long list of GOOD KK songs and bad ones too ]
>In short, therefore, I'm sure you're quite wide off the mark when you
>say that KK retained a good voice till the very end.
I am just follow-upping to UVR's post, but the thots are for the whole
thread.
Oh Well, all this renewed KK-Rafi bashing makes me feel, this is no
more friendly banter between good old buddies. Temperatures are rising,
even though quite a few are holding down their guns.
Think over this for a moment:
We see in the outside world, what we feel inside.
We become what we think, so we should think what we want to become.
GHalib is GREEEEEAT when I am heart broken, but when I have a gal by
my side, I want Kalidas, when I go to disco, I want sleazy song, with
VERY suggestive animal sounds.
I love "choli ke picche" and "chaD.h gayo oopar re" and many other
Ila Arun sleazy numbers as well.
I love Rafi's voice and KK's, but I love Talat's soothing, Hemant
lilting, and Manna Dey's elevating voice as well.
The very reason we have 64 crore god/goddesses in India is to all
according to their need.
Rafi had a stronger base much before KK, that can't undermine KK's
talent.
KK took over Rafi in post 70s, can't undermine Rafi's talent.
When I listen "Jhoomata mausam mast mahina" Manna Dey is GOD
When I listen "nache man mora" Rafi is GOD
When I listen to ...... KK IS GOD (I know I am not putting any song,
coz UVR will say that is NOT KK's gem :-)))
When I listen "aapke paas jo aayegaa" Mahendra Kaps YES, MK is GOD!!!
When I listen "mujhe gale se lagaa lo" Asha is GODDESS
When I listen to "zindagi zulm sahi" Suman is GODDESS
When I listen to "haay jiyaa roye" Lata is GODDESS
(If you notice the choice of songs, they are all strong poetry,
I don't remembr off hand KK song with strong poetry. Maybe my tastes
in poetry are too restrictive. But I am not saying KK's voice is not
good. He is wonderful in his jivy songs)
SO, where is the problem?
We mere mortals, do waqt kee roTee mil jaatee hai to char baateN
kahane lagateN hai *smirk*
Agreed, audience is the final judge of a kalaakaar, but KK and Rafi
both had talents, MDs used them as they wanted, no two throats are
made same way, though some seem like :-)))
And if you like sugar, doesn't mean you don't like shakkar or if you
eat pickles, you only eat one variety. Maybe you do, but don't say
any other pickle is not as good.
How many will eat my liver for breakfast, if I start saying, non-veg
is harmful for health, tastes like sh*t, and is incosiderate to
animals. Broccoli is anyday better than Tandoori chilli chicken?
So, if you want to share your compassion for some artiste, fine.
If you want to share your emotional surges, fine.
But when you start throwing mud, you dirty your own hands.
And spitting on moon ain't much good a practice, it (the spit) falls
on you.
And, with due apologies to all the great fact finders, listen what
Upanishads have to say (quoting from memory):
Logic will take you only to a certain distance in *feeling*
*realizing* god. Beyond that, faith and intuition will have to take
over. Logic can't dissect *Brahman*.
For example: when you want to go to mount Everest, you can take your
Ferrari only till the foothill. Beyond that you have to get down on
all two's and trek, climb. The car of logic becomes a luxury for city
dwellers (intellectauls) but to really enjoy the "life/nature/world"
you will have to get down on you feet that GDO gave, and use them
too!! Logic will only take you to the foothills. And just because you
have a Ferrari doesn't mean you have seen the world. You need to take it
out too, and know where you want to go!
Similarly, with all your facts as CR was laTTu on KK and HATED Rafi,
MM said Rafi croaks like a frog, SJ said KK is a phataa baaNs,
how many of these are based on Kitty's Korner from FilmFare??
How many of you have actually been with SDB while he is telling KK OR
Rafi how to sing which line.
And however great these film-wallahs be, there does creep in an
element of politics, favouritism as well, and greats like SDB can
also be biased by their initial impression.
Not because I don't like flame wars (as somebody pointed out earlier)
but I don't see much maturity in these futile brickbatting.
KK and Rafi are both dead, and Asha is already croaking in her final
years. How long do you think one can preserve the GOD-given
attribute? What comes, goes too! Yes, I could sing better than KK's
final year and KK could sing better than Rafi's final years --
Happy!! I am getting the next Phalke award!
<beep><beep>
-- Pintu Diwana
An elephant doesn't get bothered by barking dogs... and KK Rafi Manna
Hemant Talat Lata Asha Suman NoorJahan ............... were
elephants in the jungle of music.
Arun Verma
U.V Ravindra <uvr@tata_elxsi.soft.net> wrote:
>In article <3vkjo0$e...@CUBoulder.Colorado.EDU>
>parr...@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rajan P. Parrikar) writes:
>
>[*snip*]
>
>=> Kishore remained in fine fettle until the very end, an opinion it seems
>=> not shared by Sanjeev. Even as late as Thodi Si Bewafai one can savour the
>=> grandeur of KK's voice. By the mid 80s, of course, RD was on the way out
>=> taking with him the last guard of composing talent. It is too depressing
>=> to even talk about what followed.
>
>It is difficult to accept such a statement at face value. The fact
>that Kishore's voice was failing towards the end is quite obvious from
>several songs in which he goes off key ... "saaNsoN se nahiN,
>"de de pyaar de" song are two examples of this. Kishore had never
I agree wholeheartedly!
>been this bad in his heydays. Indeed, even though I am an incurable
>Rafi-an, I will say this much for KK: his voice was one of the few
>"pakke-sur-waali" voices that the Hindi cine field has ever seen.
>
>The examples I have give below may rank amongst the worst of KK songs,
>but KK also goes off key in "saagar kinaare" (a so called KK gem).
>Infact, I wonder if you have noticed, Dr. Rajan, but he goes off key
>in "O saathi re," and "tere mere milan ki yeh raina" too, which is why
(Actually Ravindra, you are Dr. parrikar's hunt, but let me jump into this!)
What!?? Kishore goes off key in "Tere mere milan ki yeh raina..."??
I beg to differ here, Sir! Before you say this, just replay the
picturization of this song in your mind. Ready? What does your mind say?
A sad Amitabh and Jaya on stage (Infact both sort of crying) singing
this song, Right?. Now play the song in your mind. Do You see something.
Yeah, I hear you saying that this song is beautiful. The *vazan* in KK's voice
exactly matches the sentiments of Big B on stage. You can sense the
vazan of Kishore's voice in "meet na mila re man ka .." too.
"O saathi Re.." Also had exactly the same setting, with Amitabh on stage.
But however, I myself don't consider this song a gem. I don't know how
it managed to top Binaca geetmala charts for the year 1979.
Kishore started going off-key very late. He had superb control on his
voice as late as 1982, as he shows in "Chookar mere man ko .."(Khuddar).
And ofcourse, as Dr. Parrikar mentioned, in Thodi si bewafai.
I agree that he goes slightly offkey in "saagar kinare...". But he still shows
some superb control over his voice, in another song from the same film...
"Chehra hai ya chand khila hai..". But perhaps the best example is
"Sheeshe ke gharon mein dekho to" from Sanam teri kasam(also in 1985).
>
<snip>
>Ravindra.
> A GAandhaar-DHAivat
>
Ravindra, I have been wondering. What does GAandhaar-DHAivat mean, is it
in sanskrit?
Cheers
Arun
Rizwan Syed
>riz...@earth.sparco.com (Rizwan Syed) wrote:
>>
>> Rafi's 'adaegi' of every syllable of ever word is enough to make any KKKer
>> defect. *grin* I sometimes wonder HOW, Anyone could claim KK to be a
> ^^^^^^^^^^
>> better singer? A better artist as a whole, definitely, but when it comes
>> to singing, I'd say if both of them were alive today, Rafi would still be
>> the better singer. *shrug*
>>
>> Have a good weekend all.. :)
>>
>> Rizwan
>>
>How much you might have to wonder is a function of HOW widespread your
>ignorance is regarding the great songs of Kishore. *smirk*
>Ashok
Don't get me wrong, I think Kishore was a great singer, just not as good as
Rafi. :) I actualy have more Kishore songs than I do Rafi's in my collection.
Probably due to the fact that most of Kishore's stuff was 'feel-good' music.
i.e. Meet naa mila re man kaa, Mere sapno.n ki raani, yeah shaam mastaani,
etc.... Its just that Kishore just did NOT have the naturaly fluid voice
that Rafi had. Songs sound more natural in Rafi's voice. Just my two cents
worth. :)
Rizwan
P.S. Btw, my all-time favorite song is Boondei.n nahi staare.. and second
best of all time, is meet naa mila re man kaa. So don't tell me I
just have a bias towards rafi, cause I DO acknowledge the fact that
Kishore has some GREAT songs also.
Rajan P. Parrikar
>In article <3vkjo0$e...@CUBoulder.Colorado.EDU>
>parr...@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rajan P. Parrikar) writes:
>=> Kishore remained in fine fettle until the very end, an opinion it seems
>=> not shared by Sanjeev. Even as late as Thodi Si Bewafai one can savour the
>=> grandeur of KK's voice. By the mid 80s, of course, RD was on the way out
>=> taking with him the last guard of composing talent. It is too depressing
>=> to even talk about what followed.
>It is difficult to accept such a statement at face value.
Please specify which statement. Besides, it is always good to not
accept any statement at face value regardless of its origin without
verifying it for oneself.
>The fact
>that Kishore's voice was failing towards the end is quite obvious from
>several songs in which he goes off key ...
A "failing voice" and going "off key" are two completely different things,
and most often than not, orthogonal events. I was talking about the quality
of voice, its texture, power and strength. It is easily verifiable that
Kishore held out until the very end on all these fronts.
>"saaNsoN se nahiN,
><something> se nahiN, muhabbat se bantee hai duniyaa" and the terrible
>"de de pyaar de" song are two examples of this.
Please pinpoint where you think he went offkey.
>Kishore had never
>been this bad in his heydays. Indeed, even though I am an incurable
>Rafi-an, I will say this much for KK: his voice was one of the few
>"pakke-sur-waali" voices that the Hindi cine field has ever seen.
>The examples I have give below may rank amongst the worst of KK songs,
You have merely asserted this. Let us not jump to conclusions so fast.
>but KK also goes off key in "saagar kinaare" (a so called KK gem).
Again, the proverbial wrong end of the stick you have. Kishore does sound
off-colour in this song, but that is not the same as saying he have gone
off-key. If you want to use this to make the claim about his deterioration
of voice, you only have to turn the cassette and listen to the superb
"Chehra hai ya chand khila hai..." where his voice is as resplendent as ever.
>Infact, I wonder if you have noticed, Dr. Rajan, but he goes off key
>in "O saathi re," and "tere mere milan ki yeh raina" too, which is why
Again, please pinpoint the place(s) and we will see. And call me Rajan.
The Dr stuff is ego boosting, but only if done occasionally (so don't
give it up, just tone it down:-).
>I get extremely irritated when anybody mentions it as a Kishore gem,
It ain't half as irritating as when someone makes claims of besurapan
without pinpointing where.
>ahead of songs displaying his superlative voice control as "koi lauTaa
>de mere beete hue din," "yeh dil na hota bechaaraa," "dukhi man mere,"
>"ham haiN raahi pyaar ke," "mere saamne vaali khiD.ki meiN," "mere
>bhole balam," and wonderful, priceless duet pieces like "O
>nigah-e-mastaana," "yeh rateiN yeh mausam, nadee kaa kinaaraa,"
>"bhola-bhola man (jhumroo)," "ganga ki lehreiN <title song>," "chhoD.
>do aaNchal zamaana kyaa kahegaa," "gaataa rahe meraa dil," "koraa
>kaGHaz thaa yeh man meraa" ... the list is really endless, but I can't
>stop before mentioning "is moD. se jaate haiN," where KK scores
>several points over Lata in voice quality.
>In short, therefore, I'm sure you're quite wide off the mark when you
>say that KK retained a good voice till the very end.
To rephrase your own sentiment, do you expect me to take this at
face value?
shalini razdan
==========Rajan P. Parrikar, 8/1/95==========
uvr@tata_elxsi.soft.net (U.V Ravindra) writes:
>In article <3vkjo0$e...@CUBoulder.Colorado.EDU>
>parr...@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rajan P. Parrikar) writes:
>=> Kishore remained in fine fettle until the very end, an opinion it seems
>=> not shared by Sanjeev. Even as late as Thodi Si Bewafai one can savour
the
>=> grandeur of KK's voice. By the mid 80s, of course, RD was on the way out
>=> taking with him the last guard of composing talent. It is too depressing
>=> to even talk about what followed.
>It is difficult to accept such a statement at face value.
Please specify which statement. Besides, it is always good to not
accept any statement at face value regardless of its origin without
verifying it for oneself.
>The fact
>that Kishore's voice was failing towards the end is quite obvious from
>several songs in which he goes off key ...
A "failing voice" and going "off key" are two completely different things,
and most often than not, orthogonal events. I was talking about the quality
of voice, its texture, power and strength. It is easily verifiable that
Kishore held out until the very end on all these fronts.
>While I certainly agree with you that Kishore's voice held out
for a remarkably long time, I'm not so sure about the "till the very end"
part.
What time frame are you speaking of when you say the very end? Post 1986?
The Kishore songs that come to mind from that era, such as "Chori, chori jab
ho ankhen chaar" "O yaara tu pyaron se hain pyaara" "Hum dono mein
kuch na kuch hain" and "Ek, ek ho jaye, phir ghar chale jana" etc. in
my opinion, don't have that Kishore "quality" ( :-) is that vague enough)
as his earlier songs. I think you're right in saying that his voice retained
its power and strength, but I personally feel the texture HAD changed...
for the worse at that. Is it just me, or did a slight nasality creep into
Kishore's voice towards the end?
>Shalini
Rajan P. Parrikar
>uvr@tata_elxsi.soft.net (U.V Ravindra) writes:
>>In article <3vkjo0$e...@CUBoulder.Colorado.EDU>
>>parr...@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rajan P. Parrikar) writes:
>>=> Kishore remained in fine fettle until the very end, an opinion it seems
>>=> not shared by Sanjeev. Even as late as Thodi Si Bewafai one can savour the
>>=> grandeur of KK's voice. By the mid 80s, of course, RD was on the way out
>>=> taking with him the last guard of composing talent. It is too depressing
>>=> to even talk about what followed.
>>It is difficult to accept such a statement at face value.
Don't, but here are examples distributed over the 80s that show
Kishore's consistency and fine fettle up until the very end.
Yarana, Shakti, Sharabi, Bemisal, Sanam Teri Kasam, Sagar, Sitamgar, Harjaie,
Qurbani, Shan, Kudrat, Karz are a few film where he has had one or
more super songs.
r
Rajan P. Parrikar
shalini...@atlantaga.attgis.com (Shalini Raz...@Manf.Eng@Manf) writes:
>>In article <3vkjo0$e...@CUBoulder.Colorado.EDU>
>>parr...@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rajan P. Parrikar) writes:
>A "failing voice" and going "off key" are two completely different things,
>and most often than not, orthogonal events. I was talking about the quality
>of voice, its texture, power and strength. It is easily verifiable that
>Kishore held out until the very end on all these fronts.
>>While I certainly agree with you that Kishore's voice held out
>>for a remarkably long time, I'm not so sure about the "till the very end"
>>part.
>>What time frame are you speaking of when you say the very end? Post 1986?
I meant the 1980s. It doesn't make much sense to talk about a
post-1986 "era" since he died within a year in 1987.
>>The Kishore songs that come to mind from that era, such as "Chori, chori jab
>>ho ankhen chaar" "O yaara tu pyaron se hain pyaara" "Hum dono mein
>>kuch na kuch hain" and "Ek, ek ho jaye, phir ghar chale jana" etc. in
>>my opinion, don't have that Kishore "quality" ( :-) is that vague enough)
The lack of quality is more accurately to be laid at the door of the
airheaded music directors who emerged around that time.
>>as his earlier songs. I think you're right in saying that his voice retained
>>its power and strength, but I personally feel the texture HAD changed...
>>for the worse at that.
Texture does change with age. The question is, did Kishore's texture
"degrade" enough to creep within the fringes of acceptability? My
answer is, no. Not even close. It was still very good the day he died.
Incidently, I was recently listening to the Kishore-Asha number in
"Sharabi" - Log kehte hai mai sharaabi hooN. If you can't see the
grandeur of the male voice in that song, you have no soul:-)
r
U.V Ravindra
I haven't been around here for quite some time, so I apologize for
reviving this dead/dying thread.
parr...@csn.org (Rajan P. Parrikar) writes:
=> >A "failing voice" and going "off key" are two completely different things,
=> >and most often than not, orthogonal events. I was talking about the quality
=> >of voice, its texture, power and strength. It is easily verifiable that
=> >Kishore held out until the very end on all these fronts.
I will accept that statement about Kishore's voice holding out, albeit
with some reservations. Also, a "failing voice" *most certainly* goes
off key, though the converse need not necessarily be true. However,
when a singer who possessed one of the most "true-tone" voices in the
whole filmdom starts making mistakes in catching the right notes with
his voice, and, more importantly, does this more often than not, one
tends to (rightfully, IMHO) conclude that his voice has started
faltering, failing, deteriorating ...
Speaking about "texture, power and strength," these are not enough to
certify the goodness or otherwise of a voice. A voice is very much
like a human body. Just because the hands are thick and muscular, it
doesn't imply that the entire body is healthy (for all we know, those
hands may belong to a person suffering from some terminal ailment).
Similarly, just because one leg is fractured, one wouldn't say that
the person is well on his way to death. However, one would have to
agree that the person is no longer as capable of doing *everything*
that s/he used to when the leg wasn't in the plaster cast. In other
words, it isn't just enough to say that the "voice remained in fine
fettle" just based on "power or strength." Consistency in the ability
to catch the perfect note is something that Kishore most certainly
lost control over in his later days. And I *am* referring to his
post-1980 songs.
=> In article <DCpBr...@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM>
=> shalini...@atlantaga.attgis.com (Shalini Raz...@Manf.Eng@Manf) writes:
=>
=> >>While I certainly agree with you that Kishore's voice held out
=> >>for a remarkably long time, I'm not so sure about the "till the very end"
=> >>part.
=> >>What time frame are you speaking of when you say the very end? Post 1986?
=>
=> I meant the 1980s. It doesn't make much sense to talk about a
=> post-1986 "era" since he died within a year in 1987.
=> >>The Kishore songs that come to mind from that era, such as
=> >>"Chori, chori jab ho ankhen chaar" "O yaara tu pyaron se hain
=> >>pyaara" "Hum dono mein kuch na kuch hain" and "Ek, ek ho jaye,
=> >>phir ghar chale jana" etc. in my opinion, don't have that Kishore
=> >>"quality" ( :-) is that vague enough)
=> The lack of quality is more accurately to be laid at the door of the
=> airheaded music directors who emerged around that time.
And, through so doing, Rajan, can you really prove that KK's voice
held out? Can you prove that the undertrial is not guilty by just
proving that someone else committed the crime? After all, the
undertrial may have been a principal accomplice in the committing of
the crime, and inasmuch as that, also needs to be "hanged by the neck
unto death" ;-) ;-) What I mean to say is that while you are right in
saying that the new crop of MDs were/are a bunch of idiots, that
doesn't prove that KKs voice was failing.
=> >>as his earlier songs. I think you're right in saying that his
=> >>voice retained its power and strength, but I personally feel the
=> >>texture HAD changed... for the worse at that.
I do agree with this. Age had most certainly begun to take it's toll
over his voice.
=> Texture does change with age. The question is, did Kishore's texture
=> "degrade" enough to creep within the fringes of acceptability? My
=> answer is, no. Not even close. It was still very good the day he
=> died.
It was quite unacceptable in several songs. It did degrade. The level
of unacceptability however is an extremely subjective thing, and what
is acceptable to you may not be to me. So, all I'll say is, *IMHO*
his voice had become quite intolerable towards the end.
As for the voice being good the day he died, well, they say, don't
they, that the candle always burns the brightest before it dies out?
Even Rafi sang a beautiful duet (with Lata) for Sonik Omi (one of the
also-ran MDs) the day he breathed his last. This doesn't mean that
Rafi's voice wasn't deteriorating towards the end. If Lata suddenly
surprises us with a very nice song now (she almost did so in Lekin),
will we suddenly decide that her voice has been holding out against
the onslaught of age and time? IMHO, NO!
=> Incidently, I was recently listening to the Kishore-Asha number in
=> "Sharabi" - Log kehte hai mai sharaabi hooN. If you can't see the
=> grandeur of the male voice in that song, you have no soul:-)
No one is saying he never sang good songs towards the end. I am only
saying that my (very much existing) soul ;-) says that he sang several
bad songs towards the end, so his voice didn't have the quality that
it possessed during, say, 1970-75.
That's all.
Ravindra.
P.S. This postscript is for all those respected RMIM-ers, who will
overreact to my article and misconstrue it to be the beginning of a
violent Rafi-KK war. To all of them, my submission is that I have
never had, nor do I propose to have, any intentions of indulging in
any Rafi-KK war or any other mudslinging match over RMIM. I am a
Rafian, agreed, but I am not one of those, who will jump at the
throats of KKKlaners yelling bloody murder, at the slightest pretext.
Please, therefore, do not mistake this posting to be a Rafi-KK
war-mail. Pintu-ji, this is for your notice too! ;-) ;-)
Pradeep Dubey
|> In article <DCpBr...@attatl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM>
|> shalini...@atlantaga.attgis.com (Shalini Raz...@Manf.Eng@Manf) writes:
|>
|> >>In article <3vkjo0$e...@CUBoulder.Colorado.EDU>
|> >>parr...@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rajan P. Parrikar) writes:
|>
|>
|>
|>
|> >>ho ankhen chaar" "O yaara tu pyaron se hain pyaara" "Hum dono mein
|> >>kuch na kuch hain" and "Ek, ek ho jaye, phir ghar chale jana" etc. in
|> >>my opinion, don't have that Kishore "quality" ( :-) is that vague enough)
|>
|> The lack of quality is more accurately to be laid at the door of the
|>
|> >>its power and strength, but I personally feel the texture HAD changed...
|> >>for the worse at that.
|>
|>
|> Incidently, I was recently listening to the Kishore-Asha number in
I must add that this is truly a very well sung song by Kishore
To all of you who might have doubted 'firat' (or whatever that
is called :-)), try copying him when he finshes the line: ...
... soch liyaa thaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, and you would have
no more such doubts. How many of classically-trained bollywood
male singers are capable of matching this very natural talent
of Kishore Da???
Pradeep
|>
|>
|>
|> r
|>
Rajan P. Parrikar
>parr...@csn.org (Rajan P. Parrikar) writes:
>=> >A "failing voice" and going "off key" are two completely different things,
>=> >and most often than not, orthogonal events. I was talking about the quality
>=> >of voice, its texture, power and strength. It is easily verifiable that
>=> >Kishore held out until the very end on all these fronts.
>I will accept that statement about Kishore's voice holding out, albeit
>with some reservations. Also, a "failing voice" *most certainly* goes
>off key,
Then we will have to look more closely at what you mean by a failing
voice. There are, for example, classical singers, advanced in age,
whose voices are "gone" (i.e. the texture is non-existent, horrible
tonal quality and so on) yet who can intone perfectly. So what you say
above can be easily disproved.
>though the converse need not necessarily be true. However,
>when a singer who possessed one of the most "true-tone" voices in the
>whole filmdom starts making mistakes in catching the right notes with
>his voice, and, more importantly, does this more often than not, one
>tends to (rightfully, IMHO) conclude that his voice has started
>faltering, failing, deteriorating ...
It is strange that the only thing in this discussion which we can
possibly objectively discuss has been ignored by you. I had requested
that you specify where he has gone besura in the examples you have
adduced. To begin with just tell us the lines (if not the exact
location(s)). Let us start off with, Tere mere milan ki yeh raina,
O saathi re, two compositions where he has ALLEGEDLY gone besura.
>Speaking about "texture, power and strength," these are not enough to
>certify the goodness or otherwise of a voice. A voice is very much
>like a human body. Just because the hands are thick and muscular, it
>doesn't imply that the entire body is healthy (for all we know, those
>hands may belong to a person suffering from some terminal ailment).
>Similarly, just because one leg is fractured, one wouldn't say that
>the person is well on his way to death. However, one would have to
>agree that the person is no longer as capable of doing *everything*
>that s/he used to when the leg wasn't in the plaster cast.
I agree with the above (obvious) observations.
>Consistency in the ability
>to catch the perfect note is something that Kishore most certainly
>lost control over in his later days. And I *am* referring to his
>post-1980 songs.
I also cited lots of examples of post-1980 films where he has consistently
turned in splendid songs and displayed admirable control. Why have you
ignored these?
Regards,
Rajan Parrikar
==============
email: parr...@rococo.colorado.edu