Here comes another scion
Imnot Apadmashri
DG
PK
- PK
C Parthapratim
wrote:
> "Shrinivas Joshi- The next Pt. Bhimsen Joshi in the making"
>
>
> DG
NO_O_O_O_O_O!
Vivek Datar
anybody looked at it? Does it contain some unpublished old gems? I think
it is at Rs 2000 or something.
-Vivek
Vishwaroopa Sharma
> This link mentions a 14 CD publication of Bhimsenji's singing. Has
> anybody looked at it? Does it contain some unpublished old gems?
It is the compilation of all his HMV recordings. 78rpms + LPs + other
recordings. It doesn't contain any unpublished archives.
~
VS
Archisman Mozumder
If it is the 4-CD HMV release, then the 1st volume contains a few of
Pandit-ji's initial 78 rpm recordings that were perhaps not released
before. The raags are:
bhairavi, multani, suha, basant, puriya ('kal na pade') and miyan ki
malhar.
All are of a duration of approx 200 seconds each.
Regards.
Imnot Apadmashri
> ... puriya ('kal na pade')
Isn't that in Sohni?
DG
naniwadekar
> On Nov 10, 7:48 pm, Archisman Mozumder wrote:
>
> > ... puriya ('kal na pade')
>
> Isn't that in Sohni?
>
I think Bhimsen's Puriya bandish on the 78 is 'jhanan jhan
thumak pag paayal baaje'.
- dn
Havanur
> This link mentions a 14 CD publication of Bhimsenji's singing. Has
> anybody looked at it? Does it contain some unpublished old gems? I think
> it is at Rs 2000 or something.
>
> -Vivek
These are probably what they are talking about, 4 sets of 2 CDs each
http://www.hamaracd.com/homevideo/HINDUSTANI%20CLASSICALHA.asp?Cid=1029
As for old gems, the Siddhi series is your best bet.
Havanur
Balwant Dixit
Must be a joke! After the next program of SJ you will see BHIMSEN JOSHI
himself! ....................BND
"Imnot Apadmashri" <imnotap...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5381881c-a7f5-4e26...@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
PK
is an example ultimate STUPIDITY. I don't know who came up with
that
title, and perhaps poor Shrinivias may have nothing to do with it. I
don't think he would advertize himself like that. Phenomenona like
Bhimsen does not occur in every generation, in fact we are blessed
indeed that we were here to witness his amazing singing.
It is really bad that the daughters and sons of the greats are
clamouring to claim to throne... even the great RS has been calling
around (yes, it is true) to promote his daughter, who obviously knows
nothing of any raagdaari and can only do some ding dong "songs".
It is a pathetic trend.
- PK
Archisman Mozumder
Here is the link to the Puriya:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/knztjywidnm/bhimsenjoshi.puriya.1.mp3
I had mentioned the first few words of the bandish so that one is not
confused with the other puriya release (baaje jhanan) that had been
released earlier (with shuddh kalyan on the flip side (batiyaan
dohraa))
Interestingly, even Rajeev Patke's site mentions this puriya as
Shankara (probably the similarity of the wordings of the bandish has
led to this typo)
http://courses.nus.edu.sg/course/ellpatke/Miscellany/bhimsen.htm
Regards.
naniwadekar
>
>
> > I think Bhimsen's Puriya bandish on the 78 is 'jhanan jhan
> > thumak pag paayal baaje'.
>
> > - dn
>
> Here is the link to the Puriya:
>
> http://www.mediafire.com/file/knztjywidnm/bhimsenjoshi.puriya.1.mp3
>
Thanks for the recording. I had not heard this Bhimsen release
of Puriya on 78. The other one ('pag paayal baaje') used to
get lot of air-time on Vividh Bharati in the 1980s, as did
its palti side of Shuddha Kalyan ('batiyaa duraawe').
- dn
Shree
You'll yell a bigger no, when you hear his puriya dhanashree here :
http://shrinivasjoshi.com/audio_clip.html
--Shree 'Why Suffer Alone'
C Parthapratim
Thanks for the warning! This doesn't even sound like a properly
cultured voice. No riyaz, no tAleem can ever help him.
Yeah -- very true, "why suffer alone"
bnadig
>
> It is really bad that the daughters and sons of the greats are
> clamouring to claim to throne... even the great RS has been calling
> around (yes, it is true) to promote his daughter, who obviously knows
> nothing of any raagdaari and can only do some ding dong "songs".
> It is a pathetic trend.
>
> - PK
What, if any, are instances of a scion ascending the throne?
Regards
Balu Nadig
C Parthapratim
Practically there are none, though certain names were there like Ashis
Khan, Raza Ali Khan, Vidyadhar Vyas, even Kaushiki ... but 'to the
throne' --- not really.
Chetan Vinchhi
Kishori Amonkar
D.V.Paluskar
Ali Akbar Khan
C
gopher
Zakir Hussain
naniwadekar
>
> What, if any, are instances of a scion ascending the throne?
>
Vishnubuwa Ichalkaranjikar, Balkrishna-buwa's son, was
a capable artist. So was Vazebuwa's son. Gajanan-buwa
Joshi's son. Gajanan-buwa himself had a famous father.
Abdul Karim Khan's children (Sureshbabu Mane and Hirabai
Barodekar) were very good singers. Bilaskhan has a Todi
to his name. Bundu Khan's son (Umrao) was a good Sarangi
player and singer. Alladiya Khan, Rahimat Khan, Bade Ghulam,
Abdul Karim all had famous father and/or uncle. Bhurji
Khan and (especially) Manji Khan were great artists.
Alladiya's brother Haider Khan was a good singer/teacher.
As was Haider K's son Natthan (Jaipurwale). Two of
(Agrawale) Naththan Khan's sons have been big names:
Abdullah Khan and Vilayat Hussein Khan. The list can
be extended to include many more names, I am sure.
And the number of great artists in Dagar family alone
runs into double digits. Indian musical tradition has
depended a lot on knowledge being passed down the
generations in a family.
- dn
Imnot Apadmashri
> ... the number of great artists in Dagar family alone
> runs into double digits.
Hm.
Archisman Mozumder
Without going into detailed comparisons, a few more can be mentioned:
Amjad Ali Khan - (Hafeez Ali Khan)
Manjhi Khan - (Alladiya Khan)
Vilayat Khan - (Inayat Khan)
Asad Ali Khan - (Sadiq Ali Khan) (Beenkar)
Khrishnarao Shankar Pandit - (Shankar Pandit)
Regards.
C Parthapratim
If we agree to go indefinitely back in history, there are many. The
whole legacy has been carried through the families. But what about the
present generation? Young and not so young people? What made the
difference?
PK
In the modern day, it will be interesting to see how how many of the
newbies (some of them barely out of diapers musically speaking) will
make the cut, while being shamelessly pushed very hard into limelight
and stardom.
- PK
Balwant Dixit
weeks. Almost every day after dinner he used to play harmonium, sing or talk
about different things. One evening he started taking about how God has
blessed him twice. He said, "So many tabla players have come and gone. Many
of them had many disciples and children who played tabla. Many say that I
am a very good tabla player. They call me Ustad. But I want to tell you one
thing. I am doubly blessed by God. My son Zakir is my best disciple and he
is also my son. That is double blessing. Not only that he plays well but he
plays better than me. He continued and said my son speaks or communicates so
well which I cannot do. He does it so well that I could learn a thing or
two from him. But I am too old to do that. He continued and said that many
well known musicians talk about their sons and daughters being outstanding
musicians without understanding what they are talking about. Why they do
such things? In music whether one is good or bad must be decided by those
who really understand music, by those who have spent their lives in
mastering what they do after years of Riyaz." This is just something he
talked about in Hindi and what I have written is a translation (may be poor)
of what he said. .........BND
"PK" <praful....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e599bedf-3a5a-4a05...@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
C Parthapratim
> Some years ago Ustad Alla Rakha (Abbaji) was staying with us for about two
> weeks. Almost every day after dinner he used to play harmonium, sing or talk
> about different things. One evening he started taking about how God has
> blessed him twice. He said, "So many tabla players have come and gone. Many
> of them had many disciples and children who played tabla. Many say that I
> am a very good tabla player. They call me Ustad. But I want to tell you one
> thing. I am doubly blessed by God. My son Zakir is my best disciple and he
> is also my son. That is double blessing. Not only that he plays well but he
> plays better than me. He continued and said my son speaks or communicates so
> well which I cannot do. He does it so well that I could learn a thing or
> two from him. But I am too old to do that. He continued and said that many
> well known musicians talk about their sons and daughters being outstanding
> musicians without understanding what they are talking about. Why they do
> such things? In music whether one is good or bad must be decided by those
> who really understand music, by those who have spent their lives in
> mastering what they do after years of Riyaz." This is just something he
> talked about in Hindi and what I have written is a translation (may be poor)
> of what he said. .........BND
>
>
> news:e599bedf-3a5a-4a05...@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > And of course Zakirbhai and Us Alla Rakha.
>
> > In the modern day, it will be interesting to see how how many of the
> > newbies (some of them barely out of diapers musically speaking) will
> > make the cut, while being shamelessly pushed very hard into limelight
> > and stardom.
>
> > - PK
Shameless self-promotion (here, promoting the heir too) is a
proposition of the age when music is rather a lucrative business in a
market larger than ever and comprising mostly of uninitiated
audiences. Another apparent effect of the huge mass of neo-rich/ neo-
cultured audiences is -- the transformation of music into some set of
acrobatics and cheap tricks. The radio that limits Durbari within 28
minutes, the recording industry that pimps the same Durbari as the
record of the decade, the tax-exempted foreign tours, the copyright
act that legalizes the heirs' rights to the royalty money, the ripple
effect of RS and AAK, all come together and are equally responsible
for such degradation. If poetry grows in isolation, music can't grow
right under the brilliance of the limelights!
When will we realize that?
Phillip
> It is really bad that the daughters and sons of the greats are
> clamouring to claim to throne... even the great RS has been calling
> around (yes, it is true) to promote his daughter, who obviously knows
> nothing of any raagdaari and can only do some ding dong "songs".
Anushka? I saw one of her CDs yesterday, looked very slick. How's it
sound? Probably she's already been discussed in detail in this group:
if so could you link me to the discussion in the archive?
Phillip
Pune
Vishwaroopa Sharma
It looks more like an armchair-pontification than anything else. Also,
you seem to be struck massively by the 'old-is-the-only-gold'
syndrome. Worthless longer renditions and many of the fantasising
fallacies (which are otherwise jokes of some worth) nurtured by the so
called gharanedar folks "also" degenerate the ICM. As you bash
somebody like Ravi Shankar, the purists of yesteryears bashed Abdul
Karim Khan, Faiyaz Khan, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan and Amir Khan; who are
now considered as all time greats. This is a mindless perpetuation.
Amir Khan was much popular, had all the limelight and had quite a good
number of followers (some are devotees in true sense) all when he was
still alive. Bhimsen Joshi's followers are a known fact. BGAK was
heavily popular for his concerts. Faiyaz Khan was revered like a
musical prophet. Ravi Shankar and Bhimsen Joshi have attained a
pinnacle of limelight. Do you say these maestros didn't deliver the
'quality' music? BTW, only 'length' seems to be your yardstick for
greatness than its aesthetic appeal (which is to much subjective and
cannot be debated). You are obviously subjective in your preferences
and still put it as a core issue with a common mandate. I wonder.
~
VS
C Parthapratim
You have completely misunderstood what I said. Please read again. I
was talking about the economics of music and not length. What was
common between AK, AKK and all other greats you mentioned was the
concious effort to immune music from the flow of bad money. RS was the
one to break that barrier. And hence comes the ripple effect. Length
or width has got nothing to do when 'depth' (of music, of pocket) is
the issue.
About length, what AKK can deliver in 4 minutes Marwa, a CPP can't
deliver that in 30 minutes of air time. He repeats phrases, mindlessly
combines phrases to stretch the performance till 30 minutes while all
he knows can be sung in 105 seconds! Leaving the tormented audiences
flabbergasted, he then collects the Prasar Bharati cheque and more,
this broadcast becomes more of an investment in his musical career.
Not length, but density, and depth count.
-CPP
Vishwaroopa Sharma
> was talking about the economics of music and not length. What was
> common between AK, AKK and all other greats you mentioned was the
> concious effort to immune music from the flow of bad money. RS was the
> one to break that barrier. And hence comes the ripple effect.
See, you are mixing two altogether different issues and drawing a
predetermined conclusion. The relation between the quality of a
performance and the remuneration of the artiste cannot be established
as you were feared. They are just disjoint events. Neither AK not AKK
lived a sage life. They demanded took (remuneration) what was proper
at their time. So do RS, BJ and all others. Some might have earned
more while some have not. It is a totally different issue. Therefore
the 'ripple effect' you were talking is a personal opinion and not a
mandatory conclusion. Of course you could have your own opinions.
Another point is your elegant claim about AK and AKK ( the concious
[sic] effort to immune music from the flow of bad money). I don't know
how many members agree with you. Certainly I don't. I've heard many
stories of the close quarters which claim otherwise for one of your
reverence. But it never restrained me to draw a conclusion on the
artiste or the art.
That apart, I agree with rest of your post.
~
VS
PK
become bald... and if such CDs are what is to become of ICM I might as
well become deaf.
- PK
अश्वमित्रः
ai ga, then I'll buy something else.
Bhuvanesh
> Some years ago Ustad Alla Rakha (Abbaji) was staying with us for about two
> weeks. Almost every day after dinner he used to play harmonium, sing or talk
> about different things. One evening he started taking about how God has
> blessed him twice. He said, "So many tabla players have come and gone. Many
> of them had many disciples and children who played tabla. Many say that I
> am a very good tabla player. They call me Ustad. But I want to tell you one
> thing. I am doubly blessed by God. My son Zakir is my best disciple and he
> is also my son. That is double blessing. Not only that he plays well but he
> plays better than me. He continued and said my son speaks or communicates so
> well which I cannot do. He does it so well that I could learn a thing or
> two from him. But I am too old to do that. He continued and said that many
> well known musicians talk about their sons and daughters being outstanding
> musicians without understanding what they are talking about. Why they do
> such things? In music whether one is good or bad must be decided by those
> who really understand music, by those who have spent their lives in
> mastering what they do after years of Riyaz." This is just something he
> talked about in Hindi and what I have written is a translation (may be poor)
> of what he said. .........BND
>
Did he say why he thought Zakir played better than he did? In my view,
for such statements, one should get down to specifics.
Bhuvanesh
Balwant Dixit
agree with what Abbaji said (in Hindi). ................BND
"Bhuvanesh" <bhuvane...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ddb4d03f-3bcc-4b6f...@j11g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
Balwant Dixit
finding out,"why he thought Zakir played better than he did" He did not
explain and I am not qualified to ask Abbaji to explain why he thought so.
................BND
"Bhuvanesh" <bhuvane...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ddb4d03f-3bcc-4b6f...@j11g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
Sanjeev Ramabhadran
> Yes. That is exactly what he said. Of course, everyone does not have to
> agree with what Abbaji said (in Hindi). ................BND
>
To expect that all such assertions are substantiated with examples in
every context for every audience is probably a bit unfair. A few
thoughts from my end:
- From my listening experience, I find Ud. Zakir Hussain's *sound*
more "powerful" than his father's without experiencing any loss of
clarity. I am not sure what role, if any, enhancements in recording/
amplification techniques over time have had in creating such an
effect.
- As "taiyyar" an artiste as Ud. Alla Rakha was, it is conceivable
that on top of riyaaz, the evolving music scene afforded a young ZH
even more opportunities to *perform* than his father had, to the point
that his father was convinced that the son's physical skills/stamina/
efficiency etc. now exceeded his own at his peak. I'd also guess that
ZH got some benefit of his father's unique experience in terms of
practical dos-and-don'ts related to the mechanics of playing tabla.
- Another product of the evolving world is that ZH likely had more
opportunities than his father to reach outside the confines of rhe
Punjab Gharana to incorporate material from elsewhere into his
playing. Perhaps breadth of repertoire figured into the above
assessment?
Just my two cents,
Sanjeev
hc408
These are all from past era. except for Zakir Hussain, there are no
scions of the living artistes. For that matter they don't even have
the worthy shishyas who can continue their gurus name and
traditions.
Kishori Amonkar
Bhimsen Joshi
I think one reason is the rigorous talim required to achieve the level
of their parents is too daunting. Whereas the great artistes of the
past used to train for 10-12 hours a day for 15-20 years before they
were allowed to give a public performance. The younger generation has
too many distractions such as education, TV, Movies, Internet cafes
and the list goes on. I am not very hopeful for the future of HCM.
Vishwaroopa Sharma
> scions of the living artistes. For that matter they don't even have
> the worthy shishyas who can continue their gurus name and
> traditions.
> Kishori Amonkar
> Bhimsen Joshi
What do you mean by these unwarranted terms "Kishori Amonkar. Bhimsen
Joshi."? I don't see any connection by your words.
Imnot Apadmashri
> What do you mean by these unwarranted terms "Kishori Amonkar. Bhimsen
> Joshi."? I don't see any connection by your words.
This is how I read it:
> ... they (Kishori Amonkar, Bhimsen Joshi) don't even have the (sic)
> worthy shishyas ...
DG