Raga Todi question
Ivanildo Kowsoleea
Can anyone tell me about the Raga Todi (or maybe Hanumatodi); when
it's played, its time of day, its character or mood?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
-------------------------
Ivanildo Kowsoleea
ikows...@evolution.org
-------------------------
Lavanya Krishnan
<HTML><BODY>
Ivanildo Kowsoleea wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Can anyone tell me about the Raga Todi (or maybe
Hanumatodi); when
<BR>it's played, its time of day, its character or mood?
<BR>
<BR>Any help would be greatly appreciated.
<BR>
<BR>-------------------------
<BR>Ivanildo Kowsoleea
<BR>ikows...@evolution.org
<BR>-------------------------
</BLOCKQUOTE>
TOdi is generally a raag played in the evening. It is believed
to evoke Bhakti (devotion) and KarunA (pity).
</BODY>
</HTML>
Amit Chatterjee
In article <336E6651...@hotmail.com>,
Raag Todi is played during the morning not evening. Around 6am to 8am is the
ideal time (IMO). It is not a very early morning raag but not a late morning
raag too.
And why did you post html ?
--
************************************************************************
Amit Chatterjee
as...@ix.netcom.com
************************************************************************
Rajiv Chakravarti
Mr. Chaterjee,
With all due respect, I think the orinal poster had the
Carnatic Raga in mind when posting.. The raga toDi or
hanumatoDi in Carnatic music in no way resembles the
Hindustani miyaN ki toDi etc... So the answer given to
the original post was OK.
No criticism meant.. Your answer of course, would be true
in the Hindustani context.
Regards,
Rajiv Chakravarti
rajiv.ch...@wichita.boeing.com
Amit Chatterjee <as...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<5kn6nk$9...@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>...
Sowrirajan Seshadri
It was very stimulating to read the discussion on Raga Thodi. Thodi is one
of the most complete ragas in Carnatic music. (The Thodi of Hindustani
music corresponds to raga Shubhapantuvarali in Carnatic.) It is the 8th
of the 72 Melakartas (parent scales) and has the suffix "Hanuma" added to
it in order to fit in to the Katapayadi Formula (using which one can
determine the serial number of the melakarta). Apart from Sa, Pa and
Shuddha madhyamam, Thodi has all minor (komal) notes (ri,ga,da and ni).
Ga&ni can be oscillated freely while ri and da can be oscillated with a
slighly lesser amplitude. It does not sound offensive in some
circumstances even when these are rendered plain. (If we replace the ma
and ni with the higher varieties, we get the Hindustani Thodi.)
To classify a raga under a particular atmosphere or mood is never easy as
any raga in the hands of a skillful artiste or composer, can be
*persuaded* to communicate almost any mood. Thodi IS a very good vehicle
for Karuna (compassion) and Bhakti (devotion), but if one were to make
even a cursory study of some of the compositions by great masters, one can
find many other moods or atmospheres being coaxed out of this wonderful
raga.I'll just enlist a FEW here:
Koluvamarakata (Thyagaraja) is pretty cheerful while Thaye Yashoda
(Uttukkadu Venkatakavi) is almost downright humorous (with a tinge of
endearing sarcasm thrown in until the 7th and final charanam when
profound devotion reigns supreme). Endukudayaradura (Thyagaraja) brings
out the saint's sorrow eloquently while Dikshitar's Sri Krishnam bhaja
manasa and Kamalambike convey a very tranquil & meditative atmosphere.
Thyagaraja's Kotinadulu communicates an almost angry mood in the pallavi
while his Dasharathi suggests a wonderous gratefulness (and contentment)
over his popularity everywhere.
As for the suitability of the time for rendition, it is a widely observed
fact that the Carnatic musician of today hardly goes by the clock (or the
sky!) to decide on the raga to be rendered. How numerous are the occasions
that we see ragas which are reputedly suitable for early mornig renditions
like Bowli or Bhoopalam being sung in the evening concerts! Generally
speaking, the convention among Carnatic music practitioners these days is
that *any raga can be rendered at any time as long as its general mood is
brought out*. For eg., Bowli should be able to suggest dawn, even if
renderd at noon!
Having said that, it has to be emphasised that Thodi is, by its very
nature, complete enough for it to be renderable at almost any time of the
day. Again, let's go to some of he works of the great masters (even at the
risk of speculating a little!):
Aaragimpave [Thyagaraja requesting Rama to drink milk - suited *more*for
early morning renditions (depending on when Rama usually woke up!)],
Kaddanuvariki where Thyagaraja speaks firmly about early morning practise
*could* have been inspired around that time, Kamalambike (the navavarana
krithi of Dikshithar) might have been intended more for the evening puja.
All said and done, nothing to prevent these songs from being rendered at
other times of the day!
This write-up, written off the cuff, is by no means exhaustive and I'm
sure many of you will be able to bring in more substance to this
discussion in due course.
Regards and best wishes,
Chitravina N.Ravikiran.
Sowrirajan Seshadri
Sowrirajan Seshadri
Sowrirajan Seshadri
Sowrirajan Seshadri
Sowrirajan Seshadri
Sowrirajan Seshadri
Tablaguy
A demonstration is being organized to support the following cause. Please
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**********************************************
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**********************************
lindires
In rec.music.indian.classical Sowrirajan Seshadri <sowri...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> It was very stimulating to read the discussion on Raga Thodi. Thodi is one
To us it was certainly NOT stimulating to read 7 copies of the
same posting. :-))
> Regards and best wishes,
> Chitravina N.Ravikiran.
Thanks for sharing your views. It certainly enhances the
perspective, with a performing artiste too sharing his views.
Vishnupriya
Ravi Rao
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Review of a vocal concert by Warren Senders'
Feb 8 1997, Lotus Fine Arts center, New York City.
My apologies for posting this so late, but I felt it was better
late than never!
Shri Warren began with Madhukauns, a welcome choice
(partly because as many people have observed, Yaman/Puriya etc.
does get tiring after a while).
The lyrics were
Vilambit ektal asthai:
Jaa re Jaa re Jaa kag, Le Ja More sandesa,
bat takata mori thak gayi ankhiyan;
Antara:
Din nahin chain, rain nahin neendiya,
kate naa katata, bairon bhayi raatiyan
Drut teental asthai:
Sagari rain jaagi, piya bina
Jubse laagi lagana, chain nahin una bina
antara:
Piya bina bitata mora jo banawaa
Kahe na aavata, more mandarawa
Kaise bitaoo din, ghari pal gina gina
Not only did Warren recite these lyrics, he even
translated them for the benefit of the audience, which
was much appreciated. I looked around to see the smiles on
many people's faces, and they obviously enjoyed the background
and context (probably brought back some cherished memories of
those days!).
For the benefit of the net audience, I'm enclosing the translation:
The text refers to a woman telling
a crow to take her message to her beloved, saying she is
desperately waiting for him. Her eyes are tired of looking
at the road. The days are restless, she doesnt sleep at
night, and the night has become her worst enemy.
The second piece is the resolution -- now that she is
united with her lover, she cant take her eyes away from him etc.
Having said this, Warren plunged into the music with gusto.
He demonstrated good sustain and purity of the notes.
The introduction of the tivra madhyam was done in a very controlled
manner, and created the right amount of tension. It had almost a
piercing effect, conveying the heart broken message of the estranged
lover. The SgMP phrase had echoes of Multani in it, but the
use of the komal nishad kept the distinction between the two ragas
very clear. Warren was ably accompanied on the harmonium by
George Rukert, on the tabla by Tapan Modak and on the
tanpura by Vijaya Sundaram. The accompanists
really complemented the singing, and a graceful harmony was
maintainted by all of them. Warren and George had several
good exchanges of musical ideas during the course of the exposition,
and Warren came out with many creative rubrics. Certainly did
the term "khyal" singing good justice.
His swara kalpana and boltaans very imaginative.
I was amazed at his superb
diction and perfect pronunciation. There was virtually no traceable
accent, which is quite remarkable.
The gamaks were flawless, and rendered with vigour.
The layakari presented was interesting too.
Through the use of all these devices, the badhat of the raga
and the presentation was well maintained. There was no feeling of
repetition, even though this was a pentatonic raga.
Furthermore, Warren did not indulge in any gimmicry. This was plain
old singing, done very well. No jumping up and down the scales,
no displays of awesome tayyari. Just good music.
Of course, Warren may want to introduce a shade of flashiness
here and there, just for variety.
The drut teental phase was sung quite energetically.
Towards the end the taans were sung at lightning speed and were very exciting
to hear.
Having heaped so much praise, let me inject a few observations to
take the market down. I felt that not much attention was paid to
the taar shadja, and the notes that were higher.
The taar shadja seems less powerful than the lower part of the scale.
He didnt dwell much on it or explore the upper octave much.
Warren certainly has a deep and pleasing voice. Perhaps attention to
these parts of the scale would improve his range and versatility.
The next piece he sang was a
famous Tilak Kamod bandish in jhaptaal:
Thirata ko sub karen,
deva puja karen
vaasana na maren
kaise ke bhav taren;
Kaya dhuvaave pak
kubhoon nahin man hi pak
Manoranga ki aas
nit rahe charanana men.
(Roughly means:
how can we ever hope to conquer our desire? We
can wash our bodies clear but not our mind. The answer lies in devotion.
)
Though well done, I thought the piece in Tilak Kamod
was not as moving as I expected.
I felt there was too much gamak and
ornamentation. It sounded pretty busy -- perhaps that much ornamentation
is not necessary. I was looking for some of the langourous meends from
pa to sa which are characteristic of Tilak Kamod and lends it its appeal.
Perhaps taking it a little easy here would help.
I'm reminded here of Paluskar's rendition in Tilak Kamod -- "koyalia ...",
which is a real gem.
The next piece rendered was
Pahadi in drut Rupak (song is in Pahadi language also):
Jyuda kinjo dolna, ho manda kinjo bolna,
kar le mane diyo, mauja jinde,
jyuda kinjo dolna.
1st antara:
Haripur, Nurpur -- thandiyana chhava
maay Balocheda, yaar Balocheda,
Ho taan taan ho!
2nd antara:
Chaan mara chadaiyaa, pipri ne ohale,
chaan mara dola, chaan mara bola,
Nai aan aan ho!
Since Pahadi raga was rendered in Pahadi language, he said it was enough
to make you a Pahadi animal!
This was a cute joke, which lightened up the audience.
Warren sang this with a lilt, and gave the tabliya a break too,
to improvise. I also thought it was a welcome addition to the
concert, after an hour of khyal singing (more from the audience point of view).
He sang it for the right duration -- about 5-10 minutes.
Warren concluded with a mesmerising tarana in Bharavi set to teental.
The mukhda of this is traditional, and has been performed
by many artists incl. Gajananrao Joshi and Nissar Hussain
Khan:
Ta na na dir dir daNoom
It was sung in a lively tempo, and the composition is very catchy.
So haunting was Warrens rendition of this tarana, the tune was
reverberating in my head long after the concert ended.
All in all, a very enjoyable concert, and well worth my while attending.
Warren displayed a good choice of talas, where
he displayed mastery over rhythm. The place where he could improve
on is expanding the range of his voice, and paying more attention
to the purity of sur (I guess the quest for perfection of sur is
never ending!).
Best of all, the delivery was done in a pleasing and joyous manner.
He sang with devotion and sincerity and gave his utmost. It
was heartening to see that.
He had an excellent sence of humor, and a commanding stage
presence. (He does his guruji and his gharana proud).
In the introduction he said he would portray the mood of the composition, the
raga and if he was lucky, hopefully some of his own mood!
I certainly think he did that, and his enthusiasm clearly showed in the music.
His spontaneity was very refreshing.
He had excellent communication and rapport with the
audience -- a treat to listen and watch him perform.
His face was radiating happiness and joy, and he was enjoying
his own performance very much, and so did the entire audience
(I watched the expressions on many people's faces -- something
I do at every concert).
Let me add a few comments, which I sincerely dont mean to sound
condescending, but are merely based on my observation and experience.
It is extremely rare to hear a "foreigner" sing North Indian classical,
and I admire Shri Warren's dedication in pursuing this difficult art
form. (There are many more non-Indians who play instrumental music
very well, but this is the first time I've heard good North Indian
vocal music from a non-Indian. Hopefully there
are more out there whom I can get a chance to listen to.)
He is an able messenger to spread his guruji's teachings, and the
style of his gharana. If you're an organizer I would strongly recommend
considering him to perform.
As an aside, he had an interesting tidbit on jhaptaal.
The word jhaptaal comes from "jhampna", which means to
pounce. (I looked up Bhargava's dictionary, which lists the meaning
to be "to jump". A curious similarity here.)
So the sam comes about in a pouncing fashion in jhaptaal.
(I've heard other stories saying that jhaptaal was inspired by
watching the walk of an elephant, and proceeds at a similar pace).
--------------167E2781446B--
Sowrirajan Seshadri
We're sorry about the 7 postings which was due to some problem with our
server here (which kept repeatedly indicating to us that the doc.was lost
and asked us to reload!).
As you say, it was very nice of Ravi to share his views on the subject
with us! He has indicated that he'll be glad to share any views/ info on
music aimed at better appreciation of the art. He has promised to keep his
eyes open in rmic!
Sowri
Rajan P. Parrikar
Ravi Rao <r...@watson.ibm.com> writes:
>Review of a vocal concert by Warren Senders'
>Feb 8 1997, Lotus Fine Arts center, New York City.
<prolix report of Shri Senders' recital deleted>
I have listened to a tape of Shri Senders rendering Raga Multani.
As I recall, the performance was enjoyable for its leisurely exploration
of this beautiful rAga. Shri Senders' voice was in good gear. He seems to
be a fine, thinking musician who has the pulse for rAgadhAri. His taiyyAri
department, however, needs more work. All in all, a musician of promise.
Vijaya Sundaram's vocal support was no good.
Regards,
r
Ivanildo Kowsoleea
"Rajiv Chakravarti" <rajiv.ch...@boeing.com> wrote:
>Mr. Chaterjee,
> With all due respect, I think the orinal poster had the
>Carnatic Raga in mind when posting.. The raga toDi or
>hanumatoDi in Carnatic music in no way resembles the
>Hindustani miyaN ki toDi etc... So the answer given to
>the original post was OK.
Being the original poster I think I should clarify something.
Before posting I didn't know there was any difference between
Hindustani's Todi and Carnatic Todi. So both answers to my question
were correct and both posters have helped me.
The reason for my asking is as follows.
I am a classical guitarist who have been asked to play a piece written
by Mr. Ravi Shankar called L'aube enchantée (The enchanted morning).
This piece is originally written for flute and harp. We play an
arrangement for flute and guitar. Since I have no knowledge of Indian
classical music whatsoever I foud it appropiate to ask and learn
something about the piece in order to try and give this piece the
respect it deserves.
Since last week I have had the chance to listen to some music
performed by Mr. Shankar on CD and I must say that I am impressed. It
has become clear to me that I, coming from another culture, will never
be able to play Indian music the way it should be played. On the other
hand, in the score it is stated that this particuler piece was written
by Mr. Shankar for some of his western friends. In writing, he must
have had the western way of playing in mind and so I believe I should
be able to play the piece the way it was meant.
In the meantime (the concert will be at the 29th of june) I would like
to learn as much as I can about the background as I can so any help
will be greatly appreciated.
I do have a few more questions:
1. What does Todi mean?
2. Do I need non-tempered tuning in order to play the notes from Raga
Todi?
3. What makes Todi different from the phrygian mode known from
medieaval / early renaissance european music? Perhaps the ri1 is a
little bit lower than our minor second?
Thank you all for your precious time.
Ivanildo
Ivanildo Kowsoleea
Lavanya Krishnan <lkri...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>TOdi is generally a raag played in the evening. It is believed
>to evoke Bhakti (devotion) and KarunA (pity).
Thanks for your kind answer.
As I understand, this is the case in Carnatic classical music, whereas
in Hindustani music it might be different. Could you kindly tell me
what TOdi means? I must admit that I know almost nothing about your
language.
Thanks again,
Vandana Vidwans
Raga 'Todi' and 'Mulatani' have same swaras in hindustani classical
music. But the way you play or sing these swaras ( call pakad )
differentiate between these two ragas.
--
#=============================================================#
| O O "What is a "free" gift ? Aren't all gifts free?" |
| \_/ Vandana Vidwans ( van...@malkauns.csd.sgi.com ) |
#=============================================================#
Lata & Mohan Krishnamoorthy
It is great to have Sri Chitravina Ravikiran contributing to this group,
although the time-stamp of 2.22am does seem a bit worrying :-)
I thought only PhD students needed to stay up that late to send
posts to newsgroups!
It is perhaps an intrinsic beauty of the Carnatic music system
that, even without a strong temporal association, it is possible
to convey the mood that was intended for the kriti by the
composer. However, I would venture to speculate that one
possible disadvantage is that the composer's mood-setting
parameters are sometimes not too obvious from the kriti itself.
This depends on the interpretations and also on the emphasis
of the guru who teaches the composition to his/her sishya.
It is, of course, easier when the sahitya suggests the mood
directly. An example is perhaps the happy and descriptive
paluku kanda in nava-rasa-kannada where Tyagaraja compares
the softness and sweetness of Lord Rama's speech to sugar
candy. I am sure there are many more examples.
I wonder if it is possible to compile a database of kriti-s and
their intended moods in cases where more insight and
emphasis is required?
For example, what could be the mood for the kriti
paramAthmudu in vAgadheeshwari? I believe the plain,
surface meaning of the kriti is that God is omnipresent
and omnipotent. But is mere knowledge of this enough
to convey the mood and spirit of the composition?
Could someone shed some light?
Cheers.
Mohan Krishnamoorthy
Melbourne, Australia
lat...@labyrinth.net.au
Dakshin
>what TOdi means?
>Ivanildo Kowsoleea
>ikows...@evolution.org
It could be a term as old as Tyagaraja himself or older. In one kriti
Tyagaraja wrote: "Chani Todi Teve, O Manasa." I am not absolutely
sure if the meaning of the in-context Todi is relevant. I believe as an
adverb
it means there to go along. Hanumat-todi could then mean "to go along with
Hanuma."
I'd seek other explanations from KNs (Knowledgeable Netters :-).
Dakshin
Ramana Kanumalla
Lata & Mohan Krishnamoorthy wrote:
>
> It is great to have Sri Chitravina Ravikiran contributing to this group,
> although the time-stamp of 2.22am does seem a bit worrying :-)
> I thought only PhD students needed to stay up that late to send
> posts to newsgroups!
Yes. I do tend to stay up late but luckily I enjoy it too!
> It is perhaps an intrinsic beauty of the Carnatic music system
> that, even without a strong temporal association, it is possible
> to convey the mood that was intended for the kriti by the
> composer. However, I would venture to speculate that one
> possible disadvantage is that the composer's mood-setting
> parameters are sometimes not too obvious from the kriti itself.
> This depends on the interpretations and also on the emphasis
> of the guru who teaches the composition to his/her sishya.
I do agree with that to a limited extent. I remember saying that a bit of speculation is
indeed involved. But what is probably needed is a greater effort from all of us to try
to 'get into the shoes of the composer' unless the external meaning obviously suggests
too personalised a setting which one may not be able to identify yourself with!
For example, in the song "Naadupai palukeru narulu" in Madhyamavati, Thyagaraja shares
his sorrow over the accusations heaped upon him by people for apparently splitting his
family. This may not be an easily identifiable circumstance for some of us but by at
least knowing its external meaning, one can do reasonable justice to its
interpretation.
Awareness levels CAN be increased if a person starts off with understanding the external
meaning of any song first and then discusses the spirit of it - which, in some cases is
not so obvious. But when we go into the frame of mind of the composer during a
particular (esp. not so personal - as in autobiographical) piece, I really think we are
bordering a bit on the over-speculative and probably a little on the 'not-so-necessary'
as well.
Lest this statement be taken out of context, let me assure you all that I am speaking
with definite humility, as a *comoposer* now (with a few hundred compositions behind
me!). There are songs whose origins can be traced back to a definite circumstance or
frame of mind and some others which 'just happen'. No doubt, a lot of factors have gone
into the creation of even a 'spontaneous' composition (even if it 'appeared' complete in
a dream) like the composers overall experiences, basic attitudes and outlook knowledge
levels and natural talent beside God's will.
So when one talks about a philosophical piece like "Paramatmudu" one can only say that,
that probably represents the sum total of what Thyagaraja perceived as the essense of
life which he just happened to express one fine day. Or, he just had a flash insight
into the omnipotence and omnipresence of God which tumbled out as an exquisite
masterpiece.
> I wonder if it is possible to compile a database of kriti-s and
> their intended moods in cases where more insight and
> emphasis is required?
This is a great idea provided it is *humanly* possible!
When we talk about moods, esp. about 'beyond-the-mere-words' type of moods, we generally
would be better off looking at what is communicated to US as interpretors rather than
speculate on what was *intended to be communicated* by the composer. Even here, what is
communicated to us by the same set of words (or the same song) *could* be different at
different times - depending on what the receiver's frame of mind or degree of awareness
is.
To illustrate, when we talk about a song like 'Dudukugala' - his Panchratna krithi in
Gowla, 'A' can interpret it as Thyagaraja repenting for his own misdeeds while 'B' can
interpret it as Thyagaraja 'actually' speaking about 'others' diplomatically! Now who is
to say with authority what the saint 'intended'?!
> For example, what could be the mood for the kriti
> paramAthmudu in vAgadheeshwari? I believe the plain,
> surface meaning of the kriti is that God is omnipresent
> and omnipotent. But is mere knowledge of this enough
> to convey the mood and spirit of the composition?
Well, isn't it?! Isn't the 'surface' meaning deep enough?!
I should however compliment Mohan for raising such a good question!
Cheers.
Chitravina N.Ravikiran.
P.S: Re. Mr.Krishnamachari's suggestion that I analyse the different interpretations of
Thodi by stalwarts on the MIDI, I confess that I'm a novice in computer technology and
am not create and post an audio file as of now. Sorry!
> Melbourne, Australia
> lat...@labyrinth.net.au
WARVIJ
I will say first that I appreciate the review very much!
Thanks Ravi for your critical appreciation and
thoughts. A few comments:
>Furthermore, Warren did not indulge in any gimmicry.
>This was plain old singing, done very well. No jumping
>up and down the scales, no displays of awesome tayyari.
>Just good music.
I will just comment here that "tayyari" in my book
really refers not to the speed of taan or the
"dazzle factor" -- rather to the degree of preparation,
forethought and care that has gone into the rendition.
>Of course, Warren may want to introduce a shade of
>flashiness here and there, just for variety.
And then again, maybe not! :-)
>The drut teental phase was sung quite energetically.
>Towards the end the taans were sung at lightning
>speed and were very exciting to hear.
There's the flashiness!
>Having heaped so much praise, let me inject a
>few observations to take the market down. I felt
>that not much attention was paid to
>the taar shadja, and the notes that were higher.
>The taar shadja seems less powerful than the lower
>part of the scale.
>He didnt dwell much on it or explore the
>upper octave much.
>Warren certainly has a deep and pleasing voice.
>Perhaps attention to these parts of the scale would
>improve his range and versatility.
An accurate and astute criticism. I come from a
bass-register family (you should hear my father sing
-- and no, he doesn't sing khyal!) and the upper octave
has always been more problematic. FWIW, I'm making
some changes in my taar saptak technique and hope to
spend more time up there in the future.
Re: Tilak Kamod "Tiratha ko sub karen"
>Though well done, I thought the piece in Tilak
>Kamod was not as moving as I expected.
>I felt there was too much gamak and
>ornamentation. It sounded pretty busy -- perhaps
>that much ornamentation is not necessary.
>I was looking for some of the langourous meends
>from pa to sa which are characteristic of Tilak
>Kamod and lends it its appeal.
>Perhaps taking it a little easy here would help.
>I'm reminded here of Paluskar's rendition in Tilak
>Kamod -- "koyalia ...", which is a real gem.
Again these remarks are very astute. At this program
I had been requested to keep the total presentation
fairly short, and I think in trying to compress the
renditions I may have zipped through the Tilak Kamod
too quickly.
One of my other concerns was that Bhimsenji has sung
this Bandish a great deal recently in concerts, and his
rendition is considerably slower (also not very well
enunciated, needless to say). Since I'd heard several
of those versions, I think I had an aesthetic preference
towards avoiding his gayaki -- I may have felt at the
time that taking the piece very slowly would have
moved me in the Kirana direction at the expense of the
lyrics, which I love.
Re Pahadi:
>Since Pahadi raga was rendered in Pahadi language,
>he said it was enough to make you a Pahadi animal!
Always assuming that the typically American locution
"a party animal" is known! :-)
>This was a cute joke, which lightened up the audience.
>Warren sang this with a lilt, and gave the tabliya a
>break too, to improvise. I also thought it was a
>welcome addition to the concert, after an hour of khyal
>singing (more from the audience point of view).
>He sang it for the right duration -- about 5-10 minutes.
It's a fun piece; I've been singing it a lot recently.
Thanks to Musadiq Sanwal who taught it to me!
Further general remarks:
>The place where he could improve on is expanding the
>range of his voice, and paying more attention
>to the purity of sur (I guess the quest for perfection
>of sur is never ending!).
Yes indeed! There was one note in particular at the inception of the
Madhukauns chhota khyal which was
pretty painful! I take comfort in the knowledge that the only people who
never go be-sur are the ones who are already dead! :-)
Thanks again for the kind and perceptive review!
Best,
Warren
Original music blending Indian and Western traditions;
Hindustani vocal music -- Khyal & Thumri --
"Beauty in music is too often confused with something
that lets the ears lie back in an easy chair."
-- Charles Ives --
For info (617) 643-0206
Warren Senders
PO Box 38-1634, Harvard Square
Cambridge, MA 02238-1634
Ranjani Saigal
Folks--
This was a wonderful note for us to see a critical (not all
positive and yet a very positive note) review of the concert. Better still
was
the fact that Warrenji responded to it. I wish we could see more of this
here (now that so many artists have access to the net). This is a learning
experience for all. I have never heard an artist respond to a criticism
and infact accept their short comings in certain areas and explaining them
to the audience. It makes one feel so much that arts like music
and dance are so interactive which they really are. Thankyou Ravi Raoji
and more so Thank you Warrenji
for setting a trend(or at least what I hope will become a trend)
Best Wishes
Ranjani Saigal
WARVIJ
Re the various responses to Raag Todi:
>I am a classical guitarist who have been asked
>to play a piece written by Mr. Ravi Shankar
<snip>
If the piece is by Ravi Shankar then the raga is
necessarily Hindustani Todi.
Hindustani Todi is generally construed to have the
following pitch sequence:
1, b2, b3, #4, 5, b6, 7, 8
In most renditions the 5 is de-emphasized with the
use of melodic elisions, e.g. passages as #4 - b6 without
touching the 5. This practice is commonly followed
by vocalists although certain instrumentalists
habitually use the 5 in straight sequences.
The raga is meant for performance in the morning.
While an equally tempered instrument will only be
able to simulate the passages of Todi, the guitar
isn't really equally tempered anyway. You can get
most of the appropriate effects through careful
listening and understanding of the "gestural" content
of the raga.
I would recommend finding some Hindustani vocal
performances of this raga. Note that some other
raags have the word "Todi" in their names, but their
scales are NOT cognate: "Bhoopali Todi," "Bilaskhani
Todi," Bahaduri Todi," etc.
The raag Todi is sometimes referred to as "Mian ki Todi,"
which is a reference to one of the great artists of
Hindustani music's history, Mian Tansen. Some
artists stress with considerable vehemence that there
is a profound difference between "Todi" and "Mian ki
Todi." Many of these "difference-stressing" artists
themselves disagree with equal vehemence as to what
the difference actually is -- so take all unqualified
assertions with at least a grain of salt!
Warren Senders
Keith Erskine
WARVIJ (war...@aol.com) wrote:
: Re the various responses to Raag Todi:
: >I am a classical guitarist who have been asked
: >to play a piece written by Mr. Ravi Shankar
: <snip>
: If the piece is by Ravi Shankar then the raga is
: necessarily Hindustani Todi.
: Hindustani Todi is generally construed to have the
: following pitch sequence:
: 1, b2, b3, #4, 5, b6, 7, 8
: While an equally tempered instrument will only be
: able to simulate the passages of Todi, the guitar
: isn't really equally tempered anyway.
I've often seen references to different sruti values
for the same svaras in different ragas, yet I've never
seen any quantification of which srutis for which ragas.
For example, I have read the komal rishabh (b2, ri) of
ragas Bhairavi, Pooriya, and Bhairav (all Hindustani) are
different, yet it is not clear *how* they are different.
Is there concensus on the proper sruti values for Raga
Todi, and how do those relate to equal temperament?
For example, I presume the Pa (5th) in Raga Todi is
slightly sharper (frequency(Pa) = 1.5*frequency(root=Sa))
than the equal temperament fifth of western music
with frequency(5th) = 1.498* frequency(root))**,
How then do the b2, b3, #4, etc, of Raga Todi compare
to the pitches of equal temperament?
Thanks,
Keith Erskine
** where 1.498= 7*(1.05947), with 1.05947, the twelfth
root of 2, is the frequency ratio of two notes one
semitone apart, such that 1.05947**12=2.000, or
twelve semitones make one octave.
Srini Pichumani
In article <3374e...@news-feed.evosys.net>, Ivanildo Kowsoleea
>
>Before posting I didn't know there was any difference between
>Hindustani's Todi and Carnatic Todi. So both answers to my question
>were correct and both posters have helped me.
Your original article had a Hanumatodi in parantheses... which
probably is the source of the confusion... (Hanuma)todi is a
clear pointer to Carnatic Todi... I don't believe the name is
extant among Hindustani varieties of Todi.
>1. What does Todi mean?
I don't know if Todi means anything, but as a raaga name it
has been around for a long time... at least since the 12th-13th
centuries, and _probably_ even earlier since Todi is mentioned
among the list of raagas used for the Divya Prabhandams of the
Tamizh Vaishnavite saints.
>2.Do I need non-tempered tuning in order to play the notes
>from Raga Todi?
Most definitely so, I would say... else you should have a good
method of deflecting the strings on your guitar and/or use some
fingering artifice to convey a reasonable impression.
>3.What makes Todi different from the phrygian mode known from
>medieaval / early renaissance european music? Perhaps the ri1
>is a little bit lower than our minor second?
Without worrying about intonation/ornamentation particulars,
Carnatic Todi is the same as the Phyrgian mode... (as per Encycl.
Brittanica, Phrygian is "E f g a b c d e" with the capital letter
E standing for "finalis"... equate it to Sa). Some of the chants
of St.Hildegaard that I have heard do indeed give a flavor of
Carnatic Todi.
>I am a classical guitarist who have been asked to play a piece written
>by Mr. Ravi Shankar called L'aube enchantée (The enchanted morning).
If it is N.Indian Todi that you want, then the fourth and seventh
in the above arrangement (i.e. a and d) have to be sharpened.
-Srini.
Bharath S. Krishnan
It is really interesting that nobody mentioned that "thodi", in the old
tradition was considered "panchama-varjya". In fact the basic varnam in
thodi "Sami Ninne Kori" has got no panchamam at all.. If I remember
right, Balamurali has also composed a panchama-varjya thodi varnam..
my 2c worth..
Bharath
V. S. Sridharan
You couldn't have picked a worse raga to compute sruti values 'cause Todi, in carnatic music, is typically sung with varying sruti values for the notes depending on where you are coming from.
For example, in ascending, if you are singing Sa ri ga, ga simply oscillates between r1 and ga resulting in a domain (Courtesy: Mr.Devarajan) with center at ekasruti ga. If you sing ni ri ga ma, then ga might be a pure sruti at dwisruti ga. When you are descending as in ma ga ri sa, then ga is oscillating between ga and ma resulting in a domain with center at a sruti as high as trisruti ga. The notes Ri, Da, and Ni have similar quirks.
If these variations are not shown, the pure notes will sound more like Sindu Bhairavi and not Todi. Therefore, nailing down the sruti values for Todi is not possible.
Sridhar
Note: The nomenclature ekasruti, dwisruti etc., are not standard. I have use them to show where the sruti is after dividing each swara into four srutis to form the 22-sruti scale.
Srini Pichumani
In article <337C85...@duke.usask.ca>, Bharath S. Krishnan
>
>It is really interesting that nobody mentioned that "thodi",
>in the old tradition was considered "panchama-varjya".
This is a little over-determined. It is indeed quite
idiomatic in Todi to render many phrases without the
panchamam... but it is certainly not "panchama-varjya",
as borne out by most classic compositions of Tyagaraja,
Dikshitar, etc in the raga.
It is better off to consider the exceptional ones which
don't include P at all as highlighting an important aspect
of this raga... since Todi raga in its totality includes
these usages.
-Srini.
Ram Venkataraman
The well known Sarangi Maestro, Ustad Sultan Khan is visiting North
America for 4-5 weeks.
He is coming to Canada, to perform in the India50 Festival in Toronto,
participating in a Jugalbandhi with Chitravina Ravikiran, on 15th August
1997, in celebrating the 50th Anniversary of India's Independence. He
will be accompanied by Sri Fazal Qureshi on Tabla.
Khan sahib will be available for concert engagements in Canada/USA
between the dates Aug.16 and Sept.30. Anyone interested in arranging
a concert, please contact:
RAM at ph: (416) 425-8720 or fax: (416) 467-1553.
Don't miss the opportunity to listen to Khan Sahib thi year.
Venkataraman