Tupac vs Rakim
Chthonthaother
than Rakim. He sold more. More people say they relate to his music than
Rakim. He never fell off like Rakim did. Rakim was decent back in 1987, but
his style got old. He didn't change and grow with the times. People always
throw Rakim's name out there when talking about the G.O.A.T. but if you compare
his catalogue to Pac's he gets swept.
TJ Xenos
>I know that alot of you RMHHers will have a baby over this. But Pac was
>better
>than Rakim.
Interesting thesis, lets check your backup.
>He sold more.
If rakim ever gets going on aftermath, he'll likely prove this untrue. I mean,
Everything aftermath has put out has gone atleast triple i believe (not
counting the compilation or truth hurts coz i have no idea on the numbers). So
if dre ever actually puts out OMG and promotes it, and then keeps pumping out
followups, he'll likely eclipse pac in the sales department.
>More people say they relate to his music than
>Rakim.
Very arguable. Among the current generation sure, but go survey older cats and
you're likely to find a very different answer.
>He never fell off like Rakim did.
If dying aint the epitome of fallin off i dont know what is lol.
>Rakim was decent back in 1987, but
>his style got old. He didn't change and grow with the times.
Tupac died before his style could get old. I mean if you only record for 5-6
years it's not a big deal to not fall off. Its like the cats who say big is
one of the best and use the fact he never fell off as justification, if your
ass doesnt fall off coz you died before you could, you dont get no credit.
>People always
>throw Rakim's name out there when talking about the G.O.A.T. but if you
>compare
>his catalogue to Pac's he gets swept.
I'd say his worst work is inferior to anything pac did, but his best work is
better than anything pac did. As for the average quality level, thats tough to
call.
T.J. Xenos
"Onward to the next case
smoking your weed
smashing your face!
Municipal Waste is gonna
FUCK YOU UP!!!"
Jen
I have more respect for Rakim and his work (as a pioneer - if you ignore his
post 80s material), but through personal preference I'd say Tupac is (or 'was')
the better artist. Reason being that I can relate to more of his music (ok,
I'm not a young black American male, but I find him a lot more accessible) and
his music bears some kind of meaning on my life, unlike Rakim's. After all,
'Pac was one of the first rappers I heard, and without sounding corny, he
"spoke" to me, despite us being worlds apart. I pretty much lost a large
proportion of respect for him in the Death Row era because he was now saying
things that contradicted the views represented in his former music, but I still
play a Tupac song pretty much every day.
"Cats say I'm too pretty to spit rhymes this gritty"
Jen
Plus, as a female listener in an era when most cats don't seem to know how to
address a woman or attract her listening ear, I think 'Pac wins hands down.
True, there are songs in which 'Pac uses the worst-of-the-worst words to
describe a woman - but tracks such as 'Keep Ya Head Up', 'White Man'z World'
and 'Do For Love' more than make up for it.
Chthonthaother
>describe a woman - but tracks such as 'Keep Ya Head Up', 'White Man'z World'
>and 'Do For Love' more than make up for it.
You can't be serious. Those tracks make up for how he addressed his own women
throughout his career? You are very ignorant.
dave paget
Chthonthaother wrote:
> But Pac was better than Rakim.
At what?
> He sold more.
Pol Pot killed more people than Mother Theressa...
That makes him better..............
I know damn well that Barney books outsell books
on open heart surgery.... does that make barney better?
> More people say they relate to his music than Rakim.
Contextualise this - Tupac has affected the modern, Rakim
has affected the previous... think back to that time.... you'll
find that Rakim had the same relative impact etc... Also,
the people "relating" to tupac are often miss-using the word
"relate" in a realistic form......... As for relating to something.
I relate more to some UK crews than I do US ones, and
whilst I will say that some UK crews can hold there own
with US crews, and when pairing them off some would
actually do a lot better, there is no way that I would think
of saying that someone like "Roots Manuva" is a better
MC than Ras Kass....... so what does that matter? different
people..........
> He never fell off like Rakim did.
Rakim never fell off...... he stopped recording / climbed off.
When he climbed back on he was no longer at the head of
the pack, and had an older technique......
> Rakim was decent back in 1987, but his style got old.
Urgh........ Tupac style was old in 1993/4........
> He didn't change and grow with the times.
Um hello? - spoonfed ignorance allowed Tupac to be a part
of the trend.... he did not change with the times, he changed
with the trends..... it's that simple.... he followed a trend of
putting out the sort of stuff that the average joe was being told
to buy into, and in time became an icon of what the average
joe was being told to grow into... 2pacolypse now - now
there's an album..... but hey, he was more advanced then,
more passionate and a better mc......... so hey, do you like
that album?
> People always throw Rakim's name out there when talking
> bout the G.O.A.T.
Including tupac - and don't go on some "pac was being humble"..
> but if you compare his catalogue to Pac's he gets swept.
Oh no? are you sure?
Who actually has the classics?
Trust me on this one......................
Pick your top 5 tracks.......... pac doesn't come close...
Think about it...
Tupac was starring in Juice.
Rakim was recording some tune or other about a ledge ;)
It's Rakim all that way................
Hype Vs Legend..........
dave paget
A to the L
said:
>But Pac was better
>than Rakim.
its not April 1st is it?
>He sold more.
Wow - that makes Hammer, and Vanilla Ice better than Rakim. Your
argument is dope so far...
>More people say they relate to his music than
>Rakim.
time periods my friend, time periods... plus the fact that Rakim even
came out AT ALL on the mic, influenced the fact that 2pac was able to
come along and spit his average little raps without having to scream
em out a la Run DMC. Rakim make TALKING not screaming on the mic the
way forward...
>He never fell off like Rakim did.
bollocks...
>Rakim was decent back in 1987, but
>his style got old. He didn't change and grow with the times.
hmmm... lets see how 2pac grew.... thug, thugz, nigga, bitch, dear
mama, thug life, westside, thug, thug, bitch, nigga... wow, dope...
>People always
>throw Rakim's name out there when talking about the G.O.A.T. but if you compare
>his catalogue to Pac's he gets swept.
by this I;m assuming you mean total output... in this case, Too Short
is also better than Rakim... and while I love me some Shorty The Pimp,
I think everyone can agreed that lyrically he ain't touching Ra...
stop being such a fucking clone....
PEACH
A to the L
"You can put wings on a pig, but that doesn't make it an eagle."
dave paget
(crap, i sound like a tellytubbie at the end there!)
A to the L wrote:
B. David Harrison
>
> Interesting thesis, lets check your backup.
>
> >He sold more.
>
> If rakim ever gets going on aftermath, he'll likely prove this untrue.
> I mean, Everything aftermath has put out has gone atleast triple i
> believe (not counting the compilation or truth hurts coz i have no idea
> on the numbers).
So basically everything that Dre and Eminem have dropped has blown up?
I don't think Rakim will at all. I respect the guy for his place in
history- but he's boring now. As Alvin put it- the guy has no charisma.
B. David Harrison
bdavid.harrison at verizon.net
My very own domain... like Three Things, but with a different name
http://www.bdids.com
B. David Harrison
> I know that alot of you RMHHers will have a baby over this. But Pac was
> better than Rakim. He sold more.
If you're going to start of a discussion that even once try and mention
record sales as a measure of talent- you're missing the damn point.
Rakim was probably more influential, but I find Tupac more enjoyable to
listen to.
Dippi
"Jen" <defj...@aol.comski> wrote in message
news:20030602111935...@mb-m11.aol.com...
man, I kinda go both ways in this department. Rakim and Tupac are two of my
all time favorites. Without a doubt Pac holds my number 1 spot... but as far
as relating... I think I relate to alot both say and it's hard to judge. I
mean, Ra's old music perfectly captures the vibe of this area when it came
out... it's hard to not relate to somethin that close to home... but I think
pac gets it cuz he just put out alot more emotional material to me, but they
really do hold their own places to me, they're not very comparable
Dippi
"B. David Harrison" <bdha...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.A41.4.44.030602...@homer25.u.washington.edu...
> TJ Xenos sez:
>
> >
> > Interesting thesis, lets check your backup.
> >
> > >He sold more.
> >
> > If rakim ever gets going on aftermath, he'll likely prove this untrue.
> > I mean, Everything aftermath has put out has gone atleast triple i
> > believe (not counting the compilation or truth hurts coz i have no idea
> > on the numbers).
>
> So basically everything that Dre and Eminem have dropped has blown up?
>
> I don't think Rakim will at all. I respect the guy for his place in
> history- but he's boring now. As Alvin put it- the guy has no charisma.
>
you are fuckin insane... dude oozes charisma witout tryin
mattmatical
<dave....@sunderland.ac.uk> wrote:
>"i wanna know what's on your mind"..... blah
Don't be silly. You can't compare "What's On Your Mind",
which is basically just a rehash of "Mahogany" with the
2Pac songs mentioned who went beyond just romance.
Matt
"Ich war mit 8 MC Eiht, mit 10 Mack 10
Bin mit 40 E-40 und immer noch Rap-Fan"
(KKS)
dave paget
dave paget
His last album wasn't all that.
The 18th letter didn't live up to the "might as well have called it,
and hey, why did they bring one out with this out?" Greatest
Hits cd on the 2nd cd....... but then how could it top distilled
dopeness from a classic back catalogue from a legend.
But...................
Simple question: Which Tupac album can ever stand against
one of (Eric B and) Rakims classics? 2pacolypse now is by
far the best 2pac album recorded and / or released, but it is
not as good as "don't sweat the technique" (did i get that wrong?)
mattmatical
mattmatical
<dave....@sunderland.ac.uk> wrote:
>It's far far superiour...............
In what department exactly? "What's On Your Mind" is
one of those sub-par songs that make "Don't Sweat"
not quite worthy of its predecessors.
Like I said, go check "Mahogany". Same set-up.
And if you think the Rakim song is any good
at addressing anything beyond romance (which
was what was being discussed after Jen brought
it up), then check Kool Moe Dee's "All Night Long",
that's how you do it.
Matt
dave paget
as well as that.....
"mahogany" = better than the 2pac songs.........
and um...........
rakim = better than 2pac ;)
dave paget
Rakim = Dope first 3 albums
dissappeared
Came back faded with an average album with a few tunes
Master album wasn't that nice atall
Tupac = Dope first album,
OK 2nd album, a few nice tunes
Nice enough 3rd album
Wack double LP (bar a few cuts)
Makavelli album = terrible bar the odd tune
Mainly crap since.
So looking at it objectively
Rakim = Pioneer with classic albums, influenced everyone, sounded amazing
long hiatus, came back uninspired and unimproved. DOPE MC
Tupac = Hung with DU, dropped a nice first album - slowly changed style
then fell off completely. Had a lot of passion/emotion.... WHINEY
RAPPER using strained vocals to hide flaws.
mattmatical wrote:
>
Dippi
"dave paget" <dave....@sunderland.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3EDB8E8F...@sunderland.ac.uk...
> I agree with both in the sense that:
>
> His last album wasn't all that.
>
> The 18th letter didn't live up to the "might as well have called it,
> and hey, why did they bring one out with this out?" Greatest
> Hits cd on the 2nd cd....... but then how could it top distilled
> dopeness from a classic back catalogue from a legend.
>
> But...................
>
> Simple question: Which Tupac album can ever stand against
> one of (Eric B and) Rakims classics? 2pacolypse now is by
> far the best 2pac album recorded and / or released, but it is
> not as good as "don't sweat the technique" (did i get that wrong?)
>
well, I disagree with you about 2pacolypse now being his best album... it's
a very close second to me against the world to me, and imo me against the
world is better than dont sweat the technique with 2pacolypse now bein on or
near that level...
B. David Harrison
>
> you are fuckin insane... dude oozes charisma witout tryin
>
I've tried and tried to appreciate Rakim, and I can't feel him at all.
I couldn't quite explain why until my man mentioned the charisa thing.
That was it. He just strikes me as not having any emotion on the mic.
He's ripping it- and the lyrics are nice- but nothing moves me.
Jen
>all time favorites.
Rakim isn't necessarily one of my favourites, but he's one of the, if not THE,
emcee whom I respect most. But as I said, 'Pac does it for me.
"Them same motherfunkers that was callin me'/
Be the first to turn they back when I'm fallin', see"
~Tupac~
Jen
>You can't be serious. Those tracks make up for how he addressed his own
>women
>throughout his career? You are very ignorant.
This from the person that called B.O.B.S a racist album...
mattmatical
<dave....@sunderland.ac.uk> wrote:
>At the end of the day...................
Cop out... I thought we were arguing about a specific
point, one that might very well explain why Tupac has had
a far greater impact on society than Rakim will ever have.
Tupac knew how to address people directly, with charisma
and a message. For instance "Keep Your Head Up" and
"Do For Love". Contradicting a major part of his other songs,
yes, but songs that ultimately define him and his impact.
Matt
Jen
>a very close second to me against the world to me, and imo me against the
>world is better than dont sweat the technique with 2pacolypse now bein on or
>near that level...
It's 2pacAlypse Now, not meaning to be pedantic...But anyway I prefer 'Strictly
4 My Niggaz'.
dave paget
behind 2pacolypse now? after me against the world he released
"all eyes on me" which was the double album on death row right?
I'd have to say that the 3rd best tupac album was DU's - Sons
Of the P....... that was a nice verse.........
PainInDaAss82
>point, one that might very well explain why Tupac has had
>a far greater impact on society than Rakim will ever have.
i would argue that this only happened because when 2pac was around, hip hop was
more widely accepted than it was back when rakim was coming up. and rakim had a
greater impact in the hip hop world, maybe not on society in general.
"Jay said it best when he asked that bitch
Ma, would you love me if I wasn't so rich?" - Havoc
dave paget
No cop-out..... Tupac reached people sure because he and his
marketing team knew what people were and would respond to,
but that doesn't neccessarily mean everything. Rakim did new
things... ushered in a whole new form of rhyming, one that is
tributary to every artist since... whether it shows or not, and one
that make his peers change their styles in many cases... but let's
not get soley bogged down in the "far greater contribution" that
you have mistakenly given to tupac.
Tupac was caught up in a media whirlwind that never existed for
Rakim. How much was tupac's relevance to an audience down
to an audience being told that they needed him because he was
relevant.... how much of a self-fulfilling prophecy is that? I mean,
sure - i'll eat a McDonalds...... but a McDonalds is not the best
burger in the world.... so why compare it to Steak cut from a
prize bull with a peerless pedigree? That's it basically - how many
kids - teens - adults say they love McDonalds... it's cheap, easy
and theres enough sugar in the sauce to make it sweet..... read
tupac................ One day someone said "hey, why not cook the
meat rather than eat it raw........ read rakim"....... now think about
that.........
Tupac's cultural impact is largely as a posterboy icon, the same
way that eminem is (but with far less talent, and no, the eminem
vs tupac argument is not something for today....), how much of
a social impact is someone making in that situation? Have you
seen Enemy at the Gate? Tupac is getting that role just the
same way that the sniper played by Jude Law is... because
people wanted something...... and so he was tailored, packaged
and passed onto the people in that way - as time progressed
his music became synonymous with what they were expecting...
So forget the Jude Law character....... where does Rakim fit in
to all this? he doesn't........ He was the person who was far
more accurate, superior in skill....... and just didn't happen to
be caught up in the same situation.......
The same way that kids loved those Pog's toys... they were
hardly transformers now were they? but they were told that was
what they wanted, what they responded too, and it became
cyclic..............
The last point about the two contradictory yet defining songs
belong in an essay about tupac......... as for defining his impact?
that doesn't even make sense............
Oh well...............
Now let me add something to this.... a million white kids (whom
eminem derides, yet rhymes to) have latched onto him.... believe
that the emotions they feel can be linked to him... isn't that the
same thing with hormonal teenage girls fantasising and obsessing
with pop stars? oh yeah... interesting parrallel eh?
Jen
>point, one that might very well explain why Tupac has had
>a far greater impact on society than Rakim will ever have.
Tupac may have ad his WIDE (but not always 'great') impact on society, but
Rakim had a greater influence over Hip-Hop - which is really what matters "at
the end of the day". I STILL prefer 'Pac though, I know that Rakim is
infinitely more talented and more "real" (difficult word), but it's just a
matter of personal preference, based upon the type of music I like, the era I
grew up in, and my greater exposure to 'Pac.
Jen
I meant to type 'had'...I found this funny as I'd actually say 'ad' if I was
speaking.
dave paget
ummyoumeani'mnot?
> He sold more.
just wanted to point out that sales, when Rakim broke in, and sales
now are vastly different.. hip-hop was barely on the map then... at
least as far as commercial viability goes.. nobody was selling
millions... MTV changed all that. Fabolous is a million seller now for
god sake.. is he better than Rakim?
> He never fell off like Rakim did.
he died.
everyone falls off eventually. given time it would have happened to
him too.
dave paget
dave paget
your own preference for an artist - to the actual quality
of an artist....... respect for that... your putting into words
what others don't even realise themselves.....
Yeah.... I prefer Tony Hart to Van Gough... but Van Gough
was definitely the better artist!
nice one
Jen
50 Cent has probably sold more than Rakim by now -- sales count for nothing but
"popularity".
Jen
>was definitely the better artist!
No-one matches up to Rolf Harris. I'm amongst the elite fans who have actually
MET him.
dave paget
I met Professor Heinz Wolf too...... and got him to do a shoutout for me...
remember him "The great egg race"....
Jen
>I met Professor Heinz Wolf too...... and got him to do a shoutout for me...
>remember him "The great egg race"....
I met him at some talent show he did in the city. He was cool as F... . As a
little kid I used to confuse him with John Cunliffe (Of Rosie & Jim fame).
dave paget
mattmatical
<dave....@sunderland.ac.uk> wrote:
At the end of my day, 2Pac is a more substantial songwriter
than Rakim, even if taking into acount that Rakim did indeed
pioneer a lot of things in that regard (from "Paid In Full" to
"Casualties of War" to "Know the Ledge").
>No cop-out..... Tupac reached people sure because he and his
>marketing team knew what people were and would respond to,
>but that doesn't neccessarily mean everything.
It means that, well, people responded to it. I don't care
if anyone is behind it planning it or if it's one genius mind
conceiving everything. The fact remains that 2Pac has
touched more people's lives.
>Rakim did new
>things... ushered in a whole new form of rhyming, one that is
>tributary to every artist since... whether it shows or not, and one
>that make his peers change their styles in many cases... but let's
>not get soley bogged down in the "far greater contribution" that
>you have mistakenly given to tupac.
Impact on society, not contribution to hip-hop. There's a difference.
>Tupac was caught up in a media whirlwind that never existed for
>Rakim. How much was tupac's relevance to an audience down
>to an audience being told that they needed him because he was
>relevant.... how much of a self-fulfilling prophecy is that?
How about younger people getting introduced to Rakim now?
They're influenced as well (just on a smaller scale) by people
who have been there in the 80s.
>Tupac's cultural impact is largely as a posterboy icon,
Partially. But there's always substance behind the
posterboy icons, at least the longer lasting ones.
>how much of
>a social impact is someone making in that situation?
The impact is there as soon as people (kids) actually start
listening to his songs, learn to detect the contradictions,
see the evolution of the artist, learn about his biography, etc.
> Have you
>seen Enemy at the Gate? Tupac is getting that role just the
>same way that the sniper played by Jude Law is... because
>people wanted something...... and so he was tailored, packaged
>and passed onto the people in that way - as time progressed
>his music became synonymous with what they were expecting...
>So forget the Jude Law character....... where does Rakim fit in
>to all this? he doesn't........ He was the person who was far
>more accurate, superior in skill....... and just didn't happen to
>be caught up in the same situation.......
Media hype doesn't negate relevance and artistry.
>The last point about the two contradictory yet defining songs
>belong in an essay about tupac......... as for defining his impact?
>that doesn't even make sense............
It does. When people look back, discussing the importance
of 2Pac, they're likely to base their argumentation around
songs like "Dear Mama" and "Keep Your Head Up", rather
than "What'z Your Phone#". Hence, the songs become
defining of his impact (okay, maybe so this is awkwardly put).
>Now let me add something to this.... a million white kids (whom
>eminem derides, yet rhymes to) have latched onto him.... believe
>that the emotions they feel can be linked to him... isn't that the
>same thing with hormonal teenage girls fantasising and obsessing
>with pop stars? oh yeah... interesting parrallel eh?
That's how this thing works. Rap music, pop music, it's all
emotions. Whether it's deeply felt and understood, or
just some teenage ecstacy, whether it's the product
of marketing plans or true self-expression.
Dave, you're buying into some type of 'realness' argument
that doesn't even matter in this case.
Matt
Jen
How old do you have to be to enjoy R&J? I'm 18 now but I watched it until I
was about 10 (no shit).
dave paget
dave paget
mattmatical wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Jun 2003 20:00:45 +0100, dave paget
> <dave....@sunderland.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> At the end of my day, 2Pac is a more substantial songwriter
> than Rakim,
Substantial? define what your trying to say here.... he wrote more
or?
> even if taking into acount that Rakim did indeed
> pioneer a lot of things in that regard (from "Paid In Full" to
> "Casualties of War" to "Know the Ledge").
your joking right?
> It means that, well, people responded to it. I don't care
> if anyone is behind it planning it or if it's one genius mind
> conceiving everything. The fact remains that 2Pac has
> touched more people's lives.
If a thousand people dived into a concrete swimming pool
with no water....... that doesn't make it a deep pool........
> >Rakim did new
> >things... ushered in a whole new form of rhyming, one that is
> >tributary to every artist since... whether it shows or not, and one
> >that make his peers change their styles in many cases... but let's
> >not get soley bogged down in the "far greater contribution" that
> >you have mistakenly given to tupac.
>
> Impact on society, not contribution to hip-hop. There's a difference.
OK........ best hiphop artist = contribution to hiphop, or impact on
society.... what sort of impact / what sort of contribution? And what
about if we just say - who's the best artist.......? rakim....
> How about younger people getting introduced to Rakim now?
> They're influenced as well (just on a smaller scale) by people
> who have been there in the 80s.
Fair point.... but doesn't hold up that heavily against what i said.
> >Tupac's cultural impact is largely as a posterboy icon,
>
> Partially. But there's always substance behind the
> posterboy icons, at least the longer lasting ones.
Che Gueverra / James Dean...... spot the difference.....
> The impact is there as soon as people (kids) actually start
> listening to his songs, learn to detect the contradictions,
> see the evolution of the artist, learn about his biography, etc.
The social impact upon societies ability to appreciate the
artist in question? fantastic.......
> Media hype doesn't negate relevance and artistry.
yeah, that's my exact point....
Tupac had the hype.... rakim had the artistry....
Your arguing from personal relevancy......
>
> >The last point about the two contradictory yet defining songs
> >belong in an essay about tupac......... as for defining his impact?
> >that doesn't even make sense............
>
> It does. When people look back, discussing the importance
> of 2Pac, they're likely to base their argumentation around
> songs like "Dear Mama" and "Keep Your Head Up", rather
> than "What'z Your Phone#". Hence, the songs become
> defining of his impact (okay, maybe so this is awkwardly put).
This still doesn't make sense.......... his impact is based upon
how his impact was... which was based upon what he said,
which is defined by his impact......
> That's how this thing works. Rap music, pop music, it's all
> emotions. Whether it's deeply felt and understood, or
> just some teenage ecstacy, whether it's the product
> of marketing plans or true self-expression.
ok.... so tupac is the more emotionally relevant to the greater
amount of people........ having become part of a huge big thing...
Whereas Rakim is the better hiphop artist...........
Rakim is better despite not getting this hype
Tupac has this hype despite not being better.....
simple.....
> Dave, you're buying into some type of 'realness' argument
> that doesn't even matter in this case.
Huh?
Realness? I never mentioned "realness" so dont try dropping
me in that pigeonhole.....
Jen
And you couldn't enjoy Rosie & Jim?? Deprived!
Bay Way 41510
coat, clearin' my throat" - Tupac, paying homage to Rakim for allowing
him to be so dope (imo).
Not that this proves anything one way or the other..
STRATEGY
A to the L
<dave....@sunderland.ac.uk> said:
>It's far far superiour...............
agreed
musically AND lyrically...
PEACH
A to the L
"You can put wings on a pig, but that doesn't make it an eagle."
mochaspresso
wrote:
>I know that alot of you RMHHers will have a baby over this. But Pac was better
>than Rakim. He sold more. More people say they relate to his music than
>Rakim. He never fell off like Rakim did. Rakim was decent back in 1987, but
>his style got old. He didn't change and grow with the times. People always
>throw Rakim's name out there when talking about the G.O.A.T. but if you compare
>his catalogue to Pac's he gets swept.
Rakim is a much better rapper.....Tupac was only a good rapper, but he
was also a better all around entertainer.
-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->
Mochaspresso
Let go of your worries and be completely clear-hearted,
like the face of a mirror that contains no images.
If you want a clear mirror, behold yourself
and see the shameless truth which the mirror reflects.
If metal can be polished to a mirror-like finish,
what polishing might the mirror of the heart require?
Between the mirror and the heart is this single difference:
the heart conceals secrets while the mirror does not.
--Jalal Al-Din Rumi
...sufi poetry = hip-hop
ML-78
better
> than Rakim.
No he wasn't. Rakim has been inconsistent in more recent years but ranks as
one of the best MC's of all times whereas 2Pac was a mediocre MC with
something on his mind.
> He sold more.
Irrelevant.
> More people say they relate to his music than Rakim.
Irrelevant. That has just something to do with what topics they chose. And
quality in music is not measured by numbers anyway.
> He never fell off like Rakim did.
Yes he did. He went from "Me Against the World" to those numerous,
indifferent albums that came after it.
> Rakim was decent back in 1987, but
> his style got old. He didn't change and grow with the times.
"Follow the Leader"? "Let the Rhythm Hit 'Em"? "Don't Sweat the Technique"?
You need to do some homework.
> People always
> throw Rakim's name out there when talking about the G.O.A.T. but if you
compare
> his catalogue to Pac's he gets swept.
I do wonder what planet you're from.
ML-78
Kuahmel Allah
It's like comparing Kris and Luke....
--Kuahmel Allah, Los Angeles
"LOS ANGELES!!!"--Krondon
"For God's sake, eat a burger!!!"--Calista Flockhart
"I rep for the hood!!!"--RossAndersen
Kuahmel Allah
touched more people's lives.<<<
But it's only because it is SAID that he has.
I don't see any physical or financial evidence that he did....I didn't know he
started any fouindations. I just hear kids constantly stuttering out that "Aw,
he was da REALEST, dog, I don't know why, he was just so so REEYUL!!"
Tupac gets props, but I think each fan of his sees and saw what they WANTED to
see in him.....I don't think he was capable of being amazing right out the
gate, I think he was cysed to be that amazing cat upon everyone and their
mother playing the record 20 times a day.....
King Arthur
Word.
(But if i had to choose one, it'd be Rakim easily...)
____________________________________________________
Kuahmel Allah
Bad enough the heshe is coward enough to clone my old screen name....
Kuahmel Allah
history- but he's boring now. As Alvin put it- the guy has no charisma.
<<<
Nuff said from guys who are huge El-P and Anticon fans....
Subliminal
>something on his mind.
I don't think he's better than Rakim, but why do people hate pac so much
(especially on the I-net) he has some amazing songs
Keep Ya Head Up
Dear Mama
Krazy
Unconditional Love
Shed So Many Tears
2 of Amerikas Most wanted (no it's not a positive message, no I don't give a
shit it's a great song)
Life Goes On
Smile
To Live and Die In LA
and a lot I'm forgetting...
Subliminal
ummyoumeani'mnot?
> Tupac fell off in 96 or so......... what are you talking about?
>
touche'
DJF
tracks for him to ride the rail...
And, imo Rakim is better anyway. Even though 2Pac's dope tracks go on for
days...
D...
"Chthonthaother" <chthont...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030602103811...@mb-m13.aol.com...
> I know that alot of you RMHHers will have a baby over this. But Pac was
better
> than Rakim. He sold more. More people say they relate to his music than
> Rakim. He never fell off like Rakim did. Rakim was decent back in 1987,
but
> his style got old. He didn't change and grow with the times. People
Dippi
"Jen" <defj...@aol.comski> wrote in message
news:20030602144901...@mb-m14.aol.com...
> >well, I disagree with you about 2pacolypse now being his best album...
it's
> >a very close second to me against the world to me, and imo me against the
> >world is better than dont sweat the technique with 2pacolypse now bein on
or
> >near that level...
>
> It's 2pacAlypse Now, not meaning to be pedantic...But anyway I prefer
'Strictly
> 4 My Niggaz'.
>
very interesting... definatly my least favorite of anything ever put out by
pac INCLUDING posthumous releasees
Jen
>coat, clearin' my throat" - Tupac, paying homage to Rakim for allowing
>him to be so dope (imo).
And: "Heavy D and Rakim was...The shit to me, I'd flip to see a Dougie Fresh
show..."
Jen
>very interesting... definatly my least favorite of anything ever put out by
>pac INCLUDING posthumous releasees
What is it that you don't like. My top 5 'Pac albums goes something like this:
1) Strictly
2) 2Pacalypse Now
3) Me Against The World (even though it gets very boring)
4) R U Still Down?
5) THUG LIFE, Vol. 1.
Dippi
"ML-78" <dsl7...@NOSPAMvip.cybercity.dk> wrote in message
news:bbgkmv$14gv$1...@news.cybercity.dk...
> > I know that alot of you RMHHers will have a baby over this. But Pac was
> better
> > than Rakim.
>
> No he wasn't. Rakim has been inconsistent in more recent years but ranks
as
> one of the best MC's of all times whereas 2Pac was a mediocre MC with
> something on his mind.
>
> > He sold more.
>
> Irrelevant.
>
> > More people say they relate to his music than Rakim.
>
> Irrelevant. That has just something to do with what topics they chose.
And you believe this is something irrelevent to hip-hop music? The reason
pac was so popular (and the reason you have so many people calling him
great, sometimes calling him the best) is because he rapped about things
that they were able to feel on a very personal level. THAT was pacs gift...
fuck Ra can outlfow pac anyday... but they had different gifts and really
serve a different purpose... man theres a reason why multiple rappers
exist... cuz alot of them all have different things to offer us
Dippi
"Kuahmel Allah" <blackn...@aol.compostheap> wrote in message
news:20030602194818...@mb-m02.aol.com...
> This is apples and oranges to the nth degree...
>
> It's like comparing Kris and Luke....
thank you
A to the L
>>Strictly 4 my Niggaz
>
>>very interesting... definatly my least favorite of anything ever put out by
>>pac INCLUDING posthumous releasees
>
>What is it that you don't like. My top 5 'Pac albums goes something like this:
>
>1) Strictly
>2) 2Pacalypse Now
>3) Me Against The World (even though it gets very boring)
>4) R U Still Down?
>5) THUG LIFE, Vol. 1.
>
I think 2pacalypse and Strictly are both HORRIBLE...
my top 5
1) 7 Day theory
2) All Eyez
3) Me Against The World
4) Thug Life
5) There are no more good ones...
A to the L
Allah) said:
>This is apples and oranges to the nth degree...
>
>It's like comparing Kris and Luke....
hey don't start...
Luke is dope, and Kris ain't never did a Miami bass joint that moved
me...
ML-78
> >
> > Irrelevant. That has just something to do with what topics they chose.
>
> And you believe this is something irrelevent to hip-hop music? The reason
> pac was so popular (and the reason you have so many people calling him
> great, sometimes calling him the best) is because he rapped about things
> that they were able to feel on a very personal level. THAT was pacs
gift...
> fuck Ra can outlfow pac anyday... but they had different gifts and really
> serve a different purpose... man theres a reason why multiple rappers
> exist... cuz alot of them all have different things to offer us
I see your point and agree with it, but what I meant was that simply more
people relating to someone is not really a measure of quality. More people
could relate to MC Hammer than Rakim as well, simply because his lyrics were
more accessible. The other poster may have meant that 2Pac was better
because his lyrics were more personal but that wasn't what he said.
ML-78
A to the L
said:
I love doing this...
you ready?
"What's Your Phone #" says hi
:)
Jen
>
>you ready?
>
>"What's Your Phone #" says hi
"Outlaw" (Me Against The World) asks if you wanna hang out.
"See the simple fact of the matter is they don't give a f**k about you"
Jen
>1) 7 Day theory
>2) All Eyez
I think those 2 albums are amongst his worst work. I can't quite put my finger
on why I don't like them, but All Eyez was full of irrelevant filler songs and
I can only bear to listen to about half of Killuminati.
suntzu
i'd definitely put r u still down above all eyez. i was surprised, but
i realized that when i play all eyez nowadays, i skip around a lot, but
when i play r u still down, i play it straight through for the most part.
Jen
Me too, particularly CD1, it really holds up.
suntzu
i think my favorites are on disc 2. hold on, do for love, 16 on death
row, when i get free.
although disc 1 has a much stronger opening to me...
Jen
>row, when i get free.
>
>although disc 1 has a much stronger opening to me...
Disc 1 runs very nicely from tracks 1-9, and although there are some overall
better songs on disc 2, I do quite a lot of skipping (of tracks 1, 2, 4, 5, 7 &
11).
dave paget
People who got into him after Me against the world
tend to hate the earlier stuff...
just curious
dave paget
mochaspresso wrote:
> On 02 Jun 2003 14:38:11 GMT, chthont...@aol.com (Chthonthaother)
> wrote:
>
> >I know that alot of you RMHHers will have a baby over this. But Pac was better
> >than Rakim. He sold more. More people say they relate to his music than
> >Rakim. He never fell off like Rakim did. Rakim was decent back in 1987, but
> >his style got old. He didn't change and grow with the times. People always
> >throw Rakim's name out there when talking about the G.O.A.T. but if you compare
> >his catalogue to Pac's he gets swept.
>
> Rakim is a much better rapper.....Tupac was only a good rapper, but he
> was also a better all around entertainer.
>
> -=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->-=-=->
>
> Mochaspresso
>
> Let go of your worries and be completely clear-hearted,
> like the face of a mirror that contains no images.
> If you want a clear mirror, behold yourself
> and see the shameless truth which the mirror reflects.
>
> If metal can be polished to a mirror-like finish,
> what polishing might the mirror of the heart require?
> Between the mirror and the heart is this single difference:
> the heart conceals secrets while the mirror does not.
> --Jalal Al-Din Rumi
>
> ...sufi poetry = hip-hop
dave paget
Jen wrote:
> >i'm 26.....
>
> And you couldn't enjoy Rosie & Jim?? Deprived!
dave paget
Kuahmel Allah wrote:
> This is apples and oranges to the nth degree...
>
> It's like comparing Kris and Luke....
dave paget
knew he wasn't as good..... and was just having a joke
Bay Way 41510 wrote:
> "Bear witness to the dopest fuckin' rhyme I wrote...takin' off my
> coat, clearin' my throat" - Tupac, paying homage to Rakim for allowing
> him to be so dope (imo).
>
> Not that this proves anything one way or the other..
>
> STRATEGY
dave paget
People don't hate tupac.......... just argue strongly when other
people suggest that he's the best, better than blah...... and just
blindly scream about how tupac is the most amazing whilst
ignoring the obvious......
dave paget
Rakim is just better:
He has more skill, he is better....... blah, it's such a redundant thing.......
Tupac was a better entertainer..........
Dougie Fresh is better than everyone then ;)
Big Markie is nicer on the mic than Eminem etc.........
Jen
Offended. Ha ha.
suntzu
i'd always assumed the latter
Bay Way 41510
> proves tupac believed his own hype... or more likely
> knew he wasn't as good..... and was just having a joke
huh?
I thought he was just giving Rakim props
not getting the other stuff at all..
STRATEGY
dave paget
someone put that quote back up please.........
Jen
>someone put that quote back up please.........
I quoted when 'Pac said "Heavy D and Rakim was the shit to me, I'd flip to see
a Dougie Fresh show..." on 'Old Skool', where he pays homage to a lot of his
predecessors.
dave paget
dave paget
Jen
>aswell
<b>I've never heard/read that quote from 'Pac and I know his work pretty well.
I could be mistaken though, especially if it's from an interview as opposed to
a song.</b>
mattmatical
<dave....@sunderland.ac.uk> wrote:
>mattmatical wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 02 Jun 2003 20:00:45 +0100, dave paget
>> <dave....@sunderland.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>> At the end of my day, 2Pac is a more substantial songwriter
>> than Rakim,
>
>Substantial? define what your trying to say here.... he wrote more
>or?
He wrote more (and better) songs with substance, that's
what I'm trying to say. Substantial in regards to human
interest stories, psychological insight into characters,
political opinions, etc.
>> It means that, well, people responded to it. I don't care
>> if anyone is behind it planning it or if it's one genius mind
>> conceiving everything. The fact remains that 2Pac has
>> touched more people's lives.
>
>If a thousand people dived into a concrete swimming pool
>with no water....... that doesn't make it a deep pool........
You fail to see beyond the posterboy image you made out,
falling victim to the very image you think created millions of
2Pac fans.
>> Impact on society, not contribution to hip-hop. There's a difference.
>
>OK........ best hiphop artist = contribution to hiphop, or impact on
>society.... what sort of impact / what sort of contribution? And what
>about if we just say - who's the best artist.......? rakim....
If that's all you're going to care about when it comes to hip-hop,
who's the best 'artist' (how 'bout we define that category...),
I feel so much better off.
>> The impact is there as soon as people (kids) actually start
>> listening to his songs, learn to detect the contradictions,
>> see the evolution of the artist, learn about his biography, etc.
>
>The social impact upon societies ability to appreciate the
>artist in question? fantastic.......
Not just appreciate. How about learning lessons that help
them in their own lives?
>Tupac had the hype.... rakim had the artistry....
>Your arguing from personal relevancy......
And you... artistry? I don't give a damn about artistry.
It's an emtpy lifeless shell if it isn't filled with content.
>> >The last point about the two contradictory yet defining songs
>> >belong in an essay about tupac......... as for defining his impact?
>> >that doesn't even make sense............
>>
>> It does. When people look back, discussing the importance
>> of 2Pac, they're likely to base their argumentation around
>> songs like "Dear Mama" and "Keep Your Head Up", rather
>> than "What'z Your Phone#". Hence, the songs become
>> defining of his impact (okay, maybe so this is awkwardly put).
>
>This still doesn't make sense.......... his impact is based upon
>how his impact was... which was based upon what he said,
>which is defined by his impact......
I should have seen it coming. Semantics, eh?
>Rakim is better despite not getting this hype
>Tupac has this hype despite not being better.....
'Better' is about as senseless an adjective as any.
Better at what was the question. I argued for
2Pac, you failed to make an argument for Rakim.
>> Dave, you're buying into some type of 'realness' argument
>> that doesn't even matter in this case.
>
>Huh?
>Realness? I never mentioned "realness" so dont try dropping
>me in that pigeonhole.....
By going on about 2Pac's posterboy image you depicted
him as the product of a marketing plot, somehow coming
to the conclusion that Rakim was realer/better from an
artistic point of view.
Do you care to tell us what makes "2Pacalypse Now" so
different from the latter albums?
Matt
"Ich war mit 8 MC Eiht, mit 10 Mack 10
Bin mit 40 E-40 und immer noch Rap-Fan"
(KKS)
mattmatical
wrote:
>On 03 Jun 2003 01:25:31 GMT, clothes...@aol.comm (Subliminal)
>said:
>
>>>whereas 2Pac was a mediocre MC with
>>>something on his mind.
>>
>>I don't think he's better than Rakim, but why do people hate pac so much
>>(especially on the I-net) he has some amazing songs
>>
>>Keep Ya Head Up
>>Dear Mama
>>Krazy
>>Unconditional Love
>>Shed So Many Tears
>>2 of Amerikas Most wanted (no it's not a positive message, no I don't give a
>>shit it's a great song)
>>Life Goes On
>>Smile
>>To Live and Die In LA
>
>I love doing this...
>
>you ready?
>
>"What's Your Phone #" says hi
*grumble*
Name any of your favorite artists and there will
always be songs that say that kinda hi.
Dippi
"Jen" <defj...@aol.comski> wrote in message
> >Strictly 4 my Niggaz
>
> >very interesting... definatly my least favorite of anything ever put out
by
> >pac INCLUDING posthumous releasees
>
this:
>
> 1) Strictly
> 2) 2Pacalypse Now
> 3) Me Against The World (even though it gets very boring)
> 4) R U Still Down?
> 5) THUG LIFE, Vol. 1.
well, first I need to say it's one of the ones that I didn't get till a year
or two after it was released... I remember like 2 songs I liked, that I put
on a mix and bumped but I dunno... just could never get into it... cuz the
other tracks all seemed average... nothing special to me really
Dippi
"ML-78" <dsl7...@NOSPAMvip.cybercity.dk> wrote in message
news:bbhn4e$1v75$1...@news.cybercity.dk...
> > > > More people say they relate to his music than Rakim.
> > >
> > > Irrelevant. That has just something to do with what topics they chose.
> >
> > And you believe this is something irrelevent to hip-hop music? The
reason
> > pac was so popular (and the reason you have so many people calling him
> > great, sometimes calling him the best) is because he rapped about things
> > that they were able to feel on a very personal level. THAT was pacs
> gift...
> > fuck Ra can outlfow pac anyday... but they had different gifts and
really
> > serve a different purpose... man theres a reason why multiple rappers
> > exist... cuz alot of them all have different things to offer us
>
> I see your point and agree with it, but what I meant was that simply more
> people relating to someone is not really a measure of quality. More people
> could relate to MC Hammer than Rakim as well, simply because his lyrics
were
> more accessible.
I was wit ya until the MC Hammer thing I dont think anyone here has ever
been deeply touched by an MC Hammer song... accessibility does have somethin
to do wit it... but it's more than that
The other poster may have meant that 2Pac was better
> because his lyrics were more personal but that wasn't what he said.
>
> ML-78
word, well I don't like to put words in peoples mouths, nor do I remember
who the original poster u responded to was... but out of the pac fans I've
talked to, thats what they have to say. So I gues just take that as my
opinion. People relating isn't the only measure of quality but I mean... how
do you measure quality... you act like when a cd is all of a sudden packaged
it has a measurement or somethin on it, its really an objective thing, I was
trying to give you a point of view on why people prefer pac.
So how you measurin quality... you got some sort of scale you put it on that
gives you a reading... one of those would be usefull... no use for this
objective thought shit
Dippi
"mattmatical" <dont...@try.it> wrote in message
news:tvspdvsv52qvuhnfo...@4ax.com...
word, off the top of the head show me love and the rest of the second half
of that cd says hi
so whats your point?
and to you people, I'm really not arguing one way or the other, in the
beginning I said I felt pac a little bit more but said that I'm also a big
rakim fan and I gave him props... I don't think one person in here is saying
anything more than "Ra is nice on the mic but there was somethin about pacs
music that touched me more and thats why I like him better" and you guys are
arguing that like it's not an opinion, and as if they're saying anything bad
about rakim... u all need to chill... I think I only saw ONE person in this
thread diss rakim, and that was someone jumpin in I think not even any of
the dudes ur arguin wit
Dippi
> When did you get into 2pac?
> People who got into him after Me against the world
> tend to hate the earlier stuff...
>
> just curious
>
well, 2pacalypse now is prolly my second favorite pac album... so thats not
really it... I'm only 19, so the first time I started gettin really into
music was when I heard pac... other than that it was whatever was on the
radio, I owned like 2 cd's it wasn't i priority to me.. I got into pac right
after me against the world and that, 2pacalypse now and the realeases to
follow were my obsession, but I had heard strictly... a couple of times at
my boys crib and had decided not to buy until years later when I just had
extra cash and figured fuckit I got everything else might as well grab it
and I've listened to it like once since
DJF
I like "Show Me Love".
D...
"Dippi" <dippi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:gf8Da.9190$sG3.2...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
suntzu
hmmm, i really like 5, 7, and 11. esp 11. the others are good. enough
that i play the disc end to end most times.
BSE
"Dippi" <dippi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "ML-78" <dsl7...@NOSPAMvip.cybercity.dk> wrote in message
> news:bbhn4e$1v75$1...@news.cybercity.dk...
> > > > > More people say they relate to his music than Rakim.
> > > >
> > > > Irrelevant. That has just something to do with what topics they chose.
> > >
> > > And you believe this is something irrelevent to hip-hop music? The
> reason
> > > pac was so popular (and the reason you have so many people calling him
> > > great, sometimes calling him the best) is because he rapped about things
> > > that they were able to feel on a very personal level. THAT was pacs
> > gift...
> > > fuck Ra can outlfow pac anyday... but they had different gifts and
> really
> > > serve a different purpose... man theres a reason why multiple rappers
> > > exist... cuz alot of them all have different things to offer us
> >
> > I see your point and agree with it, but what I meant was that simply more
> > people relating to someone is not really a measure of quality. More people
> > could relate to MC Hammer than Rakim as well, simply because his lyrics
> were
> > more accessible.
>
> I was wit ya until the MC Hammer thing I dont think anyone here has ever
> been deeply touched by an MC Hammer song...
When I first heard CRIME STORIES I cried with sadness because he died,
but then i cried with happiness cos he said "Somebody tell my mother I
love her" at the end. Beauitful and realy realy touching.
Also HELP THE CHILDREN.
Just beautiful, its just ahead of I am I be in the touching songs list.
BSE
--
To reply by email remove YOURMUMFROMMYBED
Hadios.
Dippi
"BSE" <b...@YOURMUMFROMMYBEDukseen.com> wrote in message
news:bse-12152A.0...@news2.cableinet.net...
ok, I stand corrected... leave it to BSE to completely fuck up my logic
Subliminal
>"What's Your Phone #" says hi
>
So does 90% of the 18th letter
Subliminal
Jen
>my boys crib and had decided not to buy until years later when I just had
>extra cash and figured fuckit I got everything else might as well grab it
>and I've listened to it like once since
"Dippi"
I bought Strictly when I'd built up quite a collection of 'Pac's work...(I
think I was about 14), and when I switched it on it was a bit too much for my
naive little mind (not that it's particularly heavy, but it had a more
prominent old-skool feel than I'd ever really heard apart from on the radio - I
wasn't into this at the time), but after a few months I decided to spin it
again and I forgot how good 'Holler If Ya Hear Me' was, now for me at such a
young age, this was about the 'angriest' hip hop I'd ever heard (lol), but a
lot of that album put me onto bigger and better music and artists. Especially
some of the cats he shouts out on 'Representin' 93'
dave paget
mattmatical wrote:
> >Substantial? define what your trying to say here.... he wrote more
> >or?
>
> He wrote more (and better) songs with substance, that's
> what I'm trying to say. Substantial in regards to human
> interest stories, psychological insight into characters,
> political opinions, etc.
Don't neccessarily agree with you, but I see the point your trying to make.
> >> It means that, well, people responded to it. I don't care
> >> if anyone is behind it planning it or if it's one genius mind
> >> conceiving everything. The fact remains that 2Pac has
> >> touched more people's lives.
> >
> >If a thousand people dived into a concrete swimming pool
> >with no water....... that doesn't make it a deep pool........
>
> You fail to see beyond the posterboy image you made out,
> falling victim to the very image you think created millions of
> 2Pac fans.
No......... i'm merely summarising for you here..... and all i'm saying is
that because a lot of people loved tupacs music does not mean
that his is the better music - that's POP criteria.... we're talking about
who'd the best hiphop artist..... that's my point - it has nothing to do
with the posterboy image that I pointed out (I never made out, It
already exists.........)
> >> Impact on society, not contribution to hip-hop. There's a difference.
> >
> >OK........ best hiphop artist = contribution to hiphop, or impact on
> >society.... what sort of impact / what sort of contribution? And what
> >about if we just say - who's the best artist.......? rakim....
>
> If that's all you're going to care about when it comes to hip-hop,
> who's the best 'artist' (how 'bout we define that category...),
> I feel so much better off.
Your the person who brought up the terms contribution and impact.....
You brought up the issue atleast........... We have been talking about
who's the best hiphop artist the whole time - you've atleast gone from
arguing about sales to trying to find real reasons outside of opinion...
but don't make out that we haven't been talking about who's actually
"the best"....
> >> The impact is there as soon as people (kids) actually start
> >> listening to his songs, learn to detect the contradictions,
> >> see the evolution of the artist, learn about his biography, etc.
> >
> >The social impact upon societies ability to appreciate the
> >artist in question? fantastic.......
>
> Not just appreciate. How about learning lessons that help
> them in their own lives?
And Rakim didn't so this? even if his impact was of a different
type........ you don't think that he introduced a lot of people to
a lot of higher concepts / educated thoughts than they would
have encountered in their day to day lives/schooling.... seriously...
Your merely stating DIRECT "what he said is like...." impact,
which is that the audience identified as a recipient... Rakim had
other levels too... Please note: I believe that 2pacolypse now
definitely showed tupac to have great ability and thought... but
then he squandered it largely.......
> >Tupac had the hype.... rakim had the artistry....
> >Your arguing from personal relevancy......
>
> And you... artistry? I don't give a damn about artistry.
> It's an emtpy lifeless shell if it isn't filled with content.
Let's put it this way.... while we're arguing who's the BEST...
If you want to say that Tupac is the best at selling records
whilst surrounded by hype, then cool. If you want to say
that he's the best at putting a level of emotion into it, then
cool. But if we're talking about who's actually the best -
then every time it's RAKIM....
No.... the whole argument was about who's the best...
You were using redundant points, and personal opinions
and emotional connect to argue that "my artist is the best"
whereas I was arguing that due to talent/skill/decent music
"objectively, rakim is the best"....... So don't try and make
out that we've been arguing about different things.... your
now trying to say that "Who's the best artist" wasn't what
we were discussing...... and switching it onto your little
points instead...... ain't happening man...
> >> >The last point about the two contradictory yet defining songs
> >> >belong in an essay about tupac......... as for defining his impact?
> >> >that doesn't even make sense............
> >>
> >> It does. When people look back, discussing the importance
> >> of 2Pac, they're likely to base their argumentation around
> >> songs like "Dear Mama" and "Keep Your Head Up", rather
> >> than "What'z Your Phone#". Hence, the songs become
> >> defining of his impact (okay, maybe so this is awkwardly put).
> >
> >This still doesn't make sense.......... his impact is based upon
> >how his impact was... which was based upon what he said,
> >which is defined by his impact......
>
> I should have seen it coming. Semantics, eh?
No, not Semantics, the simple fact that your argument is purely
circular, and it's a misshapen one at that.... plus, what does this
have to do with the overall argument? Your making a point about
tupacs relevence to tupac being tupac..... or something? Tupac's
songs defined tupac, who made his songs.. therfore what?
> >Rakim is better despite not getting this hype
> >Tupac has this hype despite not being better.....
>
> 'Better' is about as senseless an adjective as any.
> Better at what was the question. I argued for
> 2Pac, you failed to make an argument for Rakim.
Huh?
As an artist Rakim is far superior........... more skillful, better
You've argued about emotional connection, hype, sales....
The emotional connection bit I can cede, but he just isn't as
good as Rakim, literally..... As for your making an argument....
You haven't... you've just used this post to try and abstract
the argument into the reasons you've given for tupac being
better - which had little to do with who was the best artist,
whereas I have always maintained that tupac was the best
artist...... who's not on point?
> >> Dave, you're buying into some type of 'realness' argument
> >> that doesn't even matter in this case.
> >
> >Huh?
> >Realness? I never mentioned "realness" so dont try dropping
> >me in that pigeonhole.....
>
> By going on about 2Pac's posterboy image you depicted
> him as the product of a marketing plot, somehow coming
> to the conclusion that Rakim was realer/better from an
> artistic point of view.
I mentioned it briefly.......... I did not wholey depict him as
a marketing plot... and a posterboy image is not always a
one-way product....
I did not somehow come to the conclusion that Rakim was "realer"
You are the only person every bringing REAL into the equation,
figuring that if you can portray me as making such statements, you
can combat anything I say by lumping me into that bracket... I am
not saying that EITHER of them were REAL or UNREAL..... so
please..... don't do that little kiddie thing and decide what i'm thinking
or saying, or meaning in order to obscure what i'm actually saying
and give you a phantom target to hit at.... as for Rakim being better
from an Artistic point of view... I can again see what your trying to
do here... In the argument about "Rakim is the better hiphop artist"
Your trying to make out that i'm elevating him on some pretentious
aloof level..... where he is *superior* (with a snobbish accent) rather
than just being the superior artist...... You previously mentioned the
whole "art empty shell" thing....... and then made a personal statement
about this.... which meant that you were attributing the "empty shell"
(an aloof superior inverse snobbery anti art statement of sorts) to
Rakim.......... nice argument....
The argument has always been who was the better hiphop artist....
You raised some valid points in defence of Tupac, that were not
strong enough, but would have been strong enough to have argued
against the abject criticism of tupac... However, you also tried to
argue with a lot of Sales/Hype/Opinion statements.... which were
not relevant, and improperly argued.... it is not now time to make
out that I am off the topic of the argument, and neither is it time to
attempt to redefine the argument as being based around the emotional
connect / your own personal view of an artists back catalogue...
The argument was about who was the best hiphop artist.... and yet
your attempting to reduce everything about Rakim to a hollow
empty shell of a negative connotation of "art" whilst elevate tupac
to an undeserved status based upon popularity and his sometimes
emotional content/connection....
Once again: In the debate over who was the best Artist Rakim / Tupac
I am not judging on "realness" whatever that is, and whatever we've
been presented with (how the hell do i know anything about Rakim's
perhaps purported reealness). I am not on some "Art" bent either...
But the question remains: Who was/is the best hiphip Artist....
and in judging on those standards there can only be one answer - Rakim
(who actually produced a lot of his own material too, but that's another
argument)......
If you want to have another debate on who had the most emotional connection
then fine...... start a new topic.....
oh yeah - I agree, Tupac.... well done...
> Do you care to tell us what makes "2Pacalypse Now" so
> different from the latter albums?
Content / Quality / Non-Bollocks....