TLC or SWV ???
Grifone
Who do you think is better ? TLC or SWV ?
Grifone
R-D wrote:
>
> Grifone wrote:
> >
> > Who do you think is better ? TLC or SWV ?
>
> closer attention to where you are posting and the relevancy of what your
> posting. Now if you don't mind I think you need to take this somewhere
> else. We all thank you.
>
> R-D
Who the hell are you??? I never thought that there's so much diferences
between hip-hop & r&B. I f you don't like my letter here don't reply or
don't pay attention to it. it's my own right to post my letter here.
And, mr.coward-man, don't say "we all thank you", you are the only who
didn't agree, say i thank you, because i received more than 5 letter this
morning replying my question OK.
I ask you once again : Who the Hell are you ?
R-D
Mike Burke
Grifone <gri...@rad.net.id> wrote in article <32D9CC...@rad.net.id>...
>
> Who the hell are you??? I never thought that there's so much diferences
> between hip-hop & r&B. I f you don't like my letter here don't reply or
> don't pay attention to it. it's my own right to post my letter here.
> And, mr.coward-man, don't say "we all thank you", you are the only who
> didn't agree, say i thank you, because i received more than 5 letter this
> morning replying my question OK.
> I ask you once again : Who the Hell are you ?
>
There are MAJOR differences between R&B and hip-hop. Sure, it's your
right to post about them, it's just not very polite in a hip-hop ng, as it
clashes with the intended subject matter.
--
"And if Clinton is the answer,
it was a stupid question."
Ras Kass
Mike Burke
Raskal112
TLC is washed up and their beats are dry... SWV got it goin' on!
Trey Harris
I think that I'm going to be one of the more unpopular
contributors on this newsgroup this year. I'm going to stop holding my
tongue and speak my mind, whether I'm right or wrong.
In this case...Will someone please clearly define the
differences between hip-hop and R&B? Is it the musical origins? Is it
the listeners demographics?
For those of you who really want to separate hip-hop and R&B, I
seriously question your passion, dedication & knowledge about black
music.
Peace,
*** MARBLES ***
On 15 Jan 1997, Mike Burke
wrote:
Trey Harris
Why can't we talk about who the "real R&B/Soul artists are?
We're always discussing who the "real hip-hop artists" are. Are you
sure that R&B isn't connected to jazz? Once again, can you tell me the
difference? And what about the hip-hop artists who stole R&B beats,
watered them down and sold them on the streets?
I can understand some people's discontent with the current state
of soul music, but it's just like the current state of hip-hop. Talent
is too often overlooked for a gimmick.
My original question still stands...What are the major
differences between hip-hop & R&B?
Peace,
*** MARBLES ***
On 16 Jan 1997, PJUF
wrote:
> marbles said:
> :For those of you who really want to separate hip-hop and R&B
>
> im sorry. r&b has nothing to do with hip hop. its like saying r&b is part
> of jazz. and im not talking about the real r&b/soul artists out there. im
> talking bout the sheeps, the ones who stole our beats, watered them down,
> and sold them on the streets.
>
> r&b that shits for saps, just a bitch who raps.
> eruok
> the degobah system
>
> Late Spring 97. Philadelphia Organic Hip Hop Festival.
> The Degobah System/Instrumental Phunk/Mountain Brothers. Email purq...@haverford.edu for info and directions
>
>
PJUF
De 1 2 kno
SWV no doubt
ice...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Trey Harris (jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu) wrote:
: Why can't we talk about who the "real R&B/Soul artists are?
: We're always discussing who the "real hip-hop artists" are. Are you
: sure that R&B isn't connected to jazz? Once again, can you tell me the
: difference? And what about the hip-hop artists who stole R&B beats,
: watered them down and sold them on the streets?
: I can understand some people's discontent with the current state
: of soul music, but it's just like the current state of hip-hop. Talent
: is too often overlooked for a gimmick.
: My original question still stands...What are the major
: differences between hip-hop & R&B?
: Peace,
: *** MARBLES ***
Call me ignorant, but R&B is men and women singing "Oooooh bay-bay
bay-bay" really high. I don't care what you say, it's sung high and it's
mostly about love. It has a beat behind it. Look at my description of
"beat" below. Is there underground R&B that sings about "The
streets"? Then tell me about it.
Bottom line: R&B is sung.
Hip-hop is not sung, at least in most senses of the word. It rhymes.
There's no contesting that. Otherwise it's beat poetry, or something. Or
else it's just talking. It is accompanied by a looping beat (don't yell
"The roots", they are hip-hop, but the music of one song would not fill a
book of sheet music, it would just have a bar with the words Repeat 100x
written by it. It still repeats itself often).
Bottom line: Hip-hop is spoken, in the sense that there isn't much variety
in the tone of voice of the "Singer", and it rhymes.
I just know I posted SOMETHING wrong here, and will be severely
reprimanded for it. (That's sarcasm)
And my bottom line is, hip-hop is good, R&B is not.
This is NOT THE TRUTH, this is what I THINK, so we WILL NOT debate it.
OK?
--
"The most beautifullest vocabulist be punching
phoney MC's dead in the esophagus"
Keith Murray
Roman Sokolowski
email: ice...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
ol...@igc.org
From: ol...@igc.org (Oliver Wang)
Subject: Re: *** ROUND 5 *** (was TLC vs. SWV)
Iceman writes...in response to Marbles original question:
>: My original question still stands...What are the major
>: differences between hip-hop & R&B?
Marbles...your question is a little vague, which is not a criticism of
it...it's to say that there are several ways of answering that.
For one thing...today's R&B has been influenced by the popularity of hip
hop, which is why, in the last two years (or more), you've seen a lot of
hip hop-flavored R&B, that incorporates a lot of the same samples. To me,
this has been a commercial development. For one thing, it's made a lot of
contemporary R&B dependent on loops, not live instrumentation which I think
has been pretty integral to soul music over the years, but which is
changing with the times.
In some ways, I guess it's ironic since hip hop has been heavily influenced
by R&B rhythms and melodies, as well as choruses and what not. But the
differences between the two are both historical and musical. And while I
think I understand where your question is coming from, I think its kind of
self-evident to people who spend a lot of time listening to either R&B or
hip hop. R&B singing is distinctive from hip hop rhyming. It's like
asking what the difference between rock music and funk music is. There may
be some overlap, but seasoned listeners can feel the difference. To get
musically technical about it, you could talk about differences in rhythm,
timbre, beat, etc. but I'd rather not get into all that.
That being said, Iceman's own perspectives on this are:
>Call me ignorant, but R&B is men and women singing "Oooooh bay-bay
>bay-bay" really high. I don't care what you say, it's sung high and it's
>mostly about love. It has a beat behind it. Look at my description of
>"beat" below. Is there underground R&B that sings about "The
>streets"? Then tell me about it.
Donny Hathaway's "The Ghetto". Aretha Franklin's "Giving Him Something He
Can Feel". I mean...there's PLENTY of R&B songs that draws from the same
inspirations of urban/ghetto life. It's just that the manifestations of
the two are different (i.e. they done differently). Isley Bros. did a song
called "Fight the Power" (of course, Isley Bros have been both an R&B and
funk band in their lifetime so it can get a little muddled). James Brown
started out singing ballads before he became the Godfather...and his stuff
includes songs like "Say It Loud (I'm Black and Proud)".
Bringing it into the modern era, I think a bulk of what we hear on the
radio tends to be very romantic ballad-y type R&B...and while I don't think
too many folks are going to confuse that with, say, The Coup's "Dig It", I
wouldn't necessarily say that R&B has lost touch with "the streets". It's
a different perspective. Love ballads have been a part of black music, and
hence, the black experience, since the beginning.
Also, think of De La Soul's "Stakes is High"...in that song, they note that
a lot of hip hop is about "love" nowadays...a reminder of what KRS was
trying to say about "Love's Gonna Getcha". Hip hop is about love too in
many ways, love for things, love for your 'hood, love for your crew, love
for ya'self. R&B is largely about love b/t men and women. There's a
difference, but it's something to think about.
As for:
>
>Hip-hop is not sung, at least in most senses of the word. It rhymes.
>There's no contesting that. Otherwise it's beat poetry, or something. Or
>else it's just talking. It is accompanied by a looping beat (don't yell
>"The roots", they are hip-hop, but the music of one song would not fill a
>book of sheet music, it would just have a bar with the words Repeat 100x
>written by it. It still repeats itself often)
Here's the confusion then...and I think where Marbles is partly drawing his
question from: by that definition, how is Busta Rhymes, "Woo Hah" different
from Faith Evan's song on the "High School High" soundtrack? Musically,
both use loops. It's the singing vs. rhyming thing that makes a bigger
difference. However, Marbles point is a good one: in today's musical
world, R&B and hip hop crossover a LOT b/t themselves, to the point of
muddling each.
--O Dub
Trey Harris
ol...@igc.org wrote:
>Marbles...your question is a little vague, which is not a criticism of
>it...it's to say that there are several ways of answering that.
>
>For one thing...today's R&B has been influenced by the popularity of hip
>hop, which is why, in the last two years (or more), you've seen a lot of
>hip hop-flavored R&B, that incorporates a lot of the same samples. To >me,this has been a commercial development. For one thing, =
it's made a >lot of contemporary R&B dependent on loops, not live instrumentation >which I think has been pretty integral to soul mu=
sic over the years, but >which is changing with the times.
Agreed...I'm not trying to say that R&B still has the strength that
it used to, because it doesn't. The "looping syndrome" is definitely a
cycle that could stand to be broken (in hip-hop and R&B). I'm glad that
you mentioned live instruments & soul music, because we seem to have lost
a lot of creativity within both hip-hop and R&B. Now I don't mean that
every artist should go get a live band, because hip-hop thrives on the
DJ. But it seems like some people are too lazy to create something new.
They'd rather rely on a cookie-cutter sound that is guaranteed to pay
off. But I will agree that the lack of live instruments has hurt R&B much
more than hip-hop.
>In some ways, I guess it's ironic since hip hop has been heavily >influenced by R&B rhythms and melodies, as well as choruses and w=
hat >not.
This is another point that I was trying to make. Too many people
are screaming about R&B artists jacking hip-hop music. OK, maybe it has
gotten to be a trend lately, but for God's sake, hip-hop artists rely
very heavily on R&B (and funk) sounds. That should be more than obvious.
>But the differences between the two are both historical and musical.
Hmmm...I won't claim to be an expert on a lot of musical history,
but the only major difference I can think of (historically) would be the
age difference. Personally, I can see modern R&B coming together back in
the 1950s. Hip-hop is relatively young. I can see a number of different
stages in R&B simply because its been around for a while. Certainly
hip-hop has its own various stages, but we're just beginning to see the
"retirement age" hit some of the early MCs.
And I would go as far to say that most of the folks who listen to
R&B are the same ones who listen to hip-hop. Sure there are extreme,
hardcore cases on both ends of the spectrum, but I can guarantee you that
a Jodeci concert will not be 100% female...and an Outkast show won't be
100% male.
>R&B singing is distinctive from hip hop rhyming.
Yeah, like I said in my reply to Iceman's post, this is the main
difference between the two.
>It's like asking what the difference between rock music and funk music >is. There may be some overlap, but seasoned listeners can =
feel the >difference. To get musically technical about it, you could talk about >differences in rhythm, timbre, beat, etc. but I'd =
rather not get into >all that.
While this is true, I'd also say that seasoned listeners can feel the
similarities and connections between the two.
>Here's the confusion then...and I think where Marbles is partly drawing >his question from: by that definition, how is Busta Rhymes=
, "Woo Hah" >different from Faith Evan's song on the "High School High" soundtrack? >Musically, both use loops. It's the singing v=
s. rhyming thing that >makes a bigger difference.
Good Lord, no...Faith's song was almost a violation of Busta
Rhymes as a musician =). Seriously, let me explain myself. The best
example I can come up with is the Organized Noize Camp. Goodie Mob &
Outkast used music that I wouldn't necessarily call hip-hop. It had a
very distinct soul found to it. I'm no music expert, so I can't
technically explain the idea.
I have no problem with an R&B artist taking a hip-hop track and
flexing it to make a track. But Faith took the ENTIRE song (which was
released less than 1 year ago) and just...just...just *used* it. No type
of originality whatsoever. And believe me, I think that Faith is
definitely an underrated vocalist. I think she's more talented than Mary
J. Blige (who's another subject in herself...see below). Like Montell
Jordan seemed to use MC Eiht's "Streiht Up Maenace" in it's
entirety...and "Falling" was a well-written, well-sung track (without
Flesh-N-Bone).
Remember Mary J. Blige's first album...summer of 1992. She
established herself as "the queen of hip-hop soul" (what an ugly title).
The album was fresh, IMO, because there was no straight-up, obvious
beat-jacking. No rhymes about blunts & 40s interrupting the flow of the
love songs. BUT on the second album, Mary relied on too much
obvious sampling from others.
On the hip-hop side of things...LL Cool J has always been an MC who
tried to please the ladies, no matter what anyone says. But here we have
2 releases from LL with cheap adaptations of well-known R&B choruses. No
originality there, either. That's the only problem I have with him
about his recent releases. LL had never done that before.
Like I said, it can go both ways. I think that they're both a
little bit too alike to be separated so cleanly.
Peace,
*** MARBLES ***
Trey Harris
ice...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () wrote:
>Call me ignorant, but R&B is men and women singing "Oooooh bay-bay
>bay-bay" really high. I don't care what you say, it's sung high and >it's mostly about love. It has a beat behind it. Look at my=
>description of "beat" below. Is there underground R&B that sings about >"The streets"? Then tell me about it.
OK, so here we have the idea that R&B is mostly about love and
hip-hop is all about "the streets". So the difference is topical. Does
this mean that any song about "the streets" is a hip-hop song and any
love song is R&B. What about Marvin Gaye ("What's Going On?" &
"Innercity Blues")? What about LL Cool J's last few singles?
>Bottom line: R&B is sung.
>
>Hip-hop is not sung, at least in most senses of the word. It rhymes.
>There's no contesting that. Otherwise it's beat poetry, or something. >Or else it's just talking. It is accompanied by a looping=
beat
You know, this is the only real difference that I've been able to
come up with myself...although most R&B songs rhyme also, but not quite
like an MC's rhymes.
>I just know I posted SOMETHING wrong here, and will be severely
>reprimanded for it. (That's sarcasm)
>And my bottom line is, hip-hop is good, R&B is not.
>This is NOT THE TRUTH, this is what I THINK, so we WILL NOT debate it.
>OK?
I'm not trying to get out at anyone, I'm just trying to figure out
what went wrong in that time period between 1986-1992 that made brothers
forget about what they used to listen to. I'm not trying to debate
whether anyone likes R&B or not, I'm questioning the insane idea that
hip-hop and R&B aren't even closely related.
Again, I'm left with the question...What reasoning could one use to
come up with the idea that hip-hop and R&B aren't closely connected?
Peace,
*** MARBLES ***
ol...@igc.org
>/* Written 6:31 AM Jan 18, 1997 by jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu
> Agreed...I'm not trying to say that R&B still has the strength that
>it used to, because it doesn't. The "looping syndrome" is definitely a
>cycle that could stand to be broken (in hip-hop and R&B). I'm glad that
>you mentioned live instruments & soul music, because we seem to have lost
>a lot of creativity within both hip-hop and R&B. Now I don't mean that
>every artist should go get a live band, because hip-hop thrives on the
>DJ. But it seems like some people are too lazy to create something new.
>They'd rather rely on a cookie-cutter sound that is guaranteed to pay
>off. But I will agree that the lack of live instruments has hurt R&B much
>more than hip-hop.
Frankly, I don't think hip hop NEEDS live instruments. I think it can be a
good thing, but by no means a necessary invention. The beauty in hip hop
production, creatively speaking, has been to create hypness from sound
bites. People may not think sampling is that original, but consider that
many acid jazz groups, that play live, are just doing cover songs of old
soul/jazz grooves...vs. a producer chopping and creating new beats from
old. It's almost getting cliche to say it, but listening to Shadow, you
kind of get a feel for the potential in sampling. Sampling is just another
way of creating sound...in this case, re-creating it out of previously
recorded sounds.
The other thing...and perhaps this hasn't been intended but...hip hop has
managed to be an archive for a lot of funk, soul and jazz on the basis of
its sampling. It's like a doorway into the grooves of the past. How many
people in our generation would have been exposed to Bob James' "Mardi Gras"
without Run DMC's help? Or Grover Washington's "Hydra" without the
Beatminerz? I'm not saying hip hop producers should get an award, but the
music HAS renewed interest in other genres and I can't see that as being
bad.
> Remember Mary J. Blige's first album...summer of 1992. She
>established herself as "the queen of hip-hop soul" (what an ugly title).
>The album was fresh, IMO, because there was no straight-up, obvious
>beat-jacking. No rhymes about blunts & 40s interrupting the flow of the
>love songs. BUT on the second album, Mary relied on too much
>obvious sampling from others.
Um...not from my perspective. No doubt, "My Life" had its share of
samples, but my god, how could you NOT hear all the previously used samples
on "What's the 411?" I think you need to go back and listen to it again
(said with a respectful tone). Just some examples:
Real Love --- Top Billin by Audio Two
Sweet Thang --- Same song by Chaka Khan
What's the 411? --- can't remember, but it's been done (most recently again
by Keith Murray but certainly before Mary J)
And I'm almost positive that you heard the bassline from "All Night Long"
at least once on her first (and second) album(s).
Mary J has been VERY consistent in her use of hip hop. Don't forget: Puff
Daddy's had his hands in the production of both albums.
--O Dub
ice...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Trey Harris (jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu) wrote:
: This is another point that I was trying to make. Too many people
: gotten to be a trend lately, but for God's sake, hip-hop artists rely
: very heavily on R&B (and funk) sounds. That should be more than obvious.
because that would pretty much be stealing a beat (unless they twisted the
beat to make it sound very different, or something like that). R&B and
hip-hop beats are too much alike for the new R&B to sampled. I will
profess to not know too much about old R 'n' B, but it was worthy of
sampling, because it's not like the people that sampled it. As for the
above comment, which I should've adressed before the other stuff (though I
might've already addressed parts of), there's a difference between that
stupid R&B song that steals that violin sample that RZA loves to use so
much (in Tical and Guillotinez) and hip-hop sampling some old record. You
act like R&B people jacking hip-hop beats is the parallel to sampling old
music. But it isn't. The parallel to the violin sample stealing is L.A.,
L.A. by Mobb Deep (one of the versions), where the beat is exactly the
same, though L.A., L.A. was probably made like that to annoy Tha Dogg Poud
more. And can't music be copywritten?
And I've said it before, and I'll say it again, how is New York, New York
a dis? OK, there's snoop talking about how "everyday ain't always what it
seems", then the rest of the song is braggadicio. It doesn't make too
much sense to me.
And here's a few footnotes: What's the cause of the steady progression of
hip-hop beats? At least since recently, and still a lot now, most of the
hip-hop beat has been samples of old music. All the sampled music was
around before the first hip-hop song, and yet, somehow, there were eras of
production. Why couldn'tve someone from the eighties sounded like the
present-day DJ Premier? Maybe I have something wrong here.
And the second and last footnote, about the unrelated discussion about the
best de la soul album... well, today, with my A&B sound gift certificate I
went to... you guessed it, A&B sound, and saw, to my delight, the first de
la soul albums for $13.69 each. Of course, I bought them both. I
recently got De La Soul is dead and buhloone mindstate from the library,
and I had slowly warmed up to De La Soul is Dead (I don't like the other
one so much). I also got Stakes is high from the library earlier. After
listening to both of the albums, I have to say Is
Dead is the better album (the best, actually). It seems like more of a
"musical journey" than 3 Feet High, not a journey in the sense of their
progression in music style as they made the album or anything like that,
but just... well... the album seems to go together better. As I write
this it's only my second time listening to 3 feet high, so maybe i
shouldn't speak of this yet. And to top it off, they included a really
stupid version of Buddy in it (apparently, the Remix was the GOOD one),
and then they put two versions of Plug Tunin' on the CD... I hate it when
they do that.
And this concludes my multi-part posting.
Trey Harris
On 19 Jan 1997 ice...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
> OLD R&B and funk. Do you think any hip-hop group would sample SWV? No,
> because that would pretty much be stealing a beat (unless they twisted the
> beat to make it sound very different, or something like that). R&B and
> hip-hop beats are too much alike for the new R&B to sampled.
I think that as time goes on, R&B artists from today may be
sampled like DJs use stuff from the 70s. Now, why do you think that
hip-hop and R&B are too much alike? The similarities are because they are
so closely connected You're kind of contradicting your earlier statement
that hip-hop and R&B aren't connected at all. I'll be the first to admit
that they are two separate entities, but they're more connected than
anyone wants to admit.
> You act like R&B people jacking hip-hop beats is the parallel to
> sampling old music. But it isn't.
What exactly the difference? Is there any difference between Faith
taking Busta Rhymes' song and BIG taking The Isley Bros. "Between the
Sheets"?
> And I've said it before, and I'll say it again, how is New York, New York
> a dis? OK, there's snoop talking about how "everyday ain't always what it
> seems", then the rest of the song is braggadicio. It doesn't make too
> much sense to me.
I agree with you here. Kurupt drops a tight-ass flow on this
track and the only mention of NY is in the chorus. It seems that the
hardcore NY heads were threatened by it.
> And here's a few footnotes: What's the cause of the steady progression of
> hip-hop beats? At least since recently, and still a lot now, most of the
> hip-hop beat has been samples of old music. All the sampled music was
> around before the first hip-hop song, and yet, somehow, there were eras of
> production. Why couldn'tve someone from the eighties sounded like the
> present-day DJ Premier? Maybe I have something wrong here.
To be honest, I haven't really studied up on the evolution of
beats. But I don't think that DJs check the date of an album before they
decide to sample it. If they found something nice from yesterday, they'd
use it. As for why someone in the 80s couldn't sound like Premeir...I
think it's for the same reason that most 80s MCs didn't sound like
Buckshot, Jeru or whoever. The styles and trends were different back
then.
Peace,
*** MARBLES ***
Trey Harris
On 18 Jan 1997 ol...@igc.org wrote:
> The other thing...and perhaps this hasn't been intended but...hip hop has
> managed to be an archive for a lot of funk, soul and jazz on the basis of
> its sampling. It's like a doorway into the grooves of the past. How many
> people in our generation would have been exposed to Bob James' "Mardi Gras"
> without Run DMC's help? Or Grover Washington's "Hydra" without the
> Beatminerz? I'm not saying hip hop producers should get an award, but the
> music HAS renewed interest in other genres and I can't see that as being
> bad.
"Tell the truth, James Brown was old/ Til Eric & Ra came out with
I Got Soul/ Rap brings back old R&B/ And if we would nt, people
would've forgot" -Stetsasonic, "Talkin' All That Jazz"
> >BUT on the second album, Mary relied on too much obvious sampling from
> >others.
>
> Um...not from my perspective. No doubt, "My Life" had its share of
> samples, but my god, how could you NOT hear all the previously used samples
> on "What's the 411?" I think you need to go back and listen to it again
> (said with a respectful tone). Just some examples:
>
> Real Love --- Top Billin by Audio Two
Yeah, she took the beat, but I felt it was the piano loop that set
the song off. Everyone talked about how fresh the beat was, but I felt the
piano was the strength.
> Sweet Thang --- Same song by Chaka Khan
But this was an obvious cover of the song...it doesn't count.
> What's the 411? --- can't remember, but it's been done (most recently again
> by Keith Murray but certainly before Mary J)
OK, but the fact you can't remember it means its not too obvious,
right? (cheap attempt to discredit your argument)
> And I'm almost positive that you heard the bassline from "All Night Long"
> at least once on her first (and second) album(s).
"All Night Long"? By whom?
Peace,
*** MARBLES ***
Oliver Wang
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.970119...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>,
Trey Harris <jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
> > >BUT on the second album, Mary relied on too much obvious sampling from
> > >others.
> >
> > Um...not from my perspective. No doubt, "My Life" had its share of
> > samples, but my god, how could you NOT hear all the previously used samples
> > on "What's the 411?" I think you need to go back and listen to it again
> > (said with a respectful tone). Just some examples:
> >
> > Real Love --- Top Billin by Audio Two
>
> Yeah, she took the beat, but I felt it was the piano loop that set
> the song off. Everyone talked about how fresh the beat was, but I felt the
> piano was the strength.
That doesn't the fact that they used one of THE most familiar beats in hip
hop, if not THE most familiar.
> > Sweet Thang --- Same song by Chaka Khan
>
> But this was an obvious cover of the song...it doesn't count.
Why not? You're talking about how easily recognized a song
is...certainly, I think many folks are familiar with Chaka Khan's "Sweet
Thang".
> > What's the 411? --- can't remember, but it's been done (most recently again
> > by Keith Murray but certainly before Mary J)
>
> OK, but the fact you can't remember it means its not too obvious,
> right? (cheap attempt to discredit your argument)
:-) And it doesn't work. What if someone didn't realize that Roy Ayers
was responsible for the loop from "My Life"?
> > And I'm almost positive that you heard the bassline from "All Night Long"
> > at least once on her first (and second) album(s).
>
> "All Night Long"? By whom?
Mary Jane Girls. One of the MOST used basslines in hip hop, best used IMO
on BDK's "Smooth Operator".
--O Dub
Oliver Wang
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.970119...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>,
Trey Harris <jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
> What exactly the difference? Is there any difference between Faith
> taking Busta Rhymes' song and BIG taking The Isley Bros. "Between the
> Sheets"?
Bad example. Use Marley Marl...who might have been the first major
producer to use "Between the Sheets" (back in the late 80s) and compare
that to Faith jacking Gail MacDermot's "Space" (the beat behind "Woo
Hah!"). When Marl did it, it was the first time any producer had mined
that beat source. In time, others would also, notably: Common Sense for
"Breaker 1/9" and ATCQ for the Hootie mix of "Bonita Applebaum". It
really wasn't until Jermaine Dupri used it on the Brat's single that the
door broke wideopen on the beat. Prior to that, the beat was certainly
identifiable back to the Isley Brothers, but at least you could give
credit to the producer for a well-chosen sample.
In the case of Faith (and I actually think the song's fine)...Puff Daddy
just lifted that sh*t directly based on the success of "Woo Hah" and the
idea of "creativity" seemed pretty empty to me.
For me, the link b/t Faith's song and Busta's song is so obvious, Stevie
Wonder could see it. However, the link between say, Marley Marl's use of
the Emotions' "Blind Alley" for BDK's "Ain't No Half Steppin" had more to
do with good musical instinct than biting a big R&B hit (though I'm sure
that was part of it).
It can be subtle, but I definitely think its there.
Think about how Brand Nubian sampled "What I Am" for "Slow Down"..."What I
Am" was a chart-topper, but who would have thought about hearing it in a
hip hop song? I give similar credit, believe it or not, to the
Trackmasters for borrowing from Sting to make "The Message". To me, these
were totally, non-obvious places to draw from, despite their popularity in
the musical world.
Other examples? Heavy D used the bassline from Miles Davis' ultra-famous
"Bitches Brew" to make "You Can't See". Or how about RZA sampling Al
Green? These are all big, pop sources, but I don't see that is blatant as
a bite as what Trackmasters, Jermaine Dupri and Puff Daddy do routinely,
which is capitalize the KNOWN success of other beats.
On 19 Jan 1997 ice...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
> > And I've said it before, and I'll say it again, how is New York, New York
> > a dis? OK, there's snoop talking about how "everyday ain't always what it
> > seems", then the rest of the song is braggadicio. It doesn't make too
> > much sense to me.
Well, there are two things. First of all, before the song starts, the
Dogg Pound are making fun of NYC-speak, like calling each other "God" and
"son". Second, in the video, they're shown stepping all over a small
model of NYC. That's a pretty obvious dis if you ask me, even if the
lyrics themselves don't reveal it.
> > And here's a few footnotes: What's the cause of the steady progression of
> > hip-hop beats? At least since recently, and still a lot now, most of the
> > hip-hop beat has been samples of old music. All the sampled music was
> > around before the first hip-hop song, and yet, somehow, there were eras of
> > production. Why couldn'tve someone from the eighties sounded like the
> > present-day DJ Premier? Maybe I have something wrong here.
Well, why didn't Louis Armstrong, one of the greatest trumpet players
ever, play be bop like Diz? Why did it take James Brown to help invent
funk music when R&B bands had been around twenty years prior? Innovation
means a leap ahead in thought which is what you see in producers like
Premier and such. When Eric B and Rakim started boosting James Brown
loops...they had started a trend in hip hop even though hip hop beats had
been around for at least 8 years before they got there. Why not before?
That's the thing about innovation and evolution. One could argue whether
or not hip hop's progress has always been linear (IMO, it has NOT) but I
do think it changes pretty constantly regardless. It has less to do with
trends, IMO, and more to do with individual creativity and luck. There
may have been a lot of hidden geniuses that we never knew about...it's
only those who appear in the mass media who really get the credit.
--O Dub
Trey Harris
ol...@igc.org (Oliver Wang) wrote:
>> >
>> > Real Love --- Top Billin by Audio Two
>>
>> Yeah, she took the beat, but I felt it was the piano loop that set
>> the song off. Everyone talked about how fresh the beat was, but I felt the
>> piano was the strength.
>
>That doesn't the fact that they used one of THE most familiar beats in hip
>hop, if not THE most familiar.
I guess what I mean is that I don't mind people using familiar
beats or samples as long as they do something extra with it ( like the
piano loop overriding it in this case).
>
>> > Sweet Thang --- Same song by Chaka Khan
>>
>> But this was an obvious cover of the song...it doesn't count.
>
>Why not? You're talking about how easily recognized a song
>is...certainly, I think many folks are familiar with Chaka Khan's "Sweet
>Thang".
No, no, no...this still doesn't count. I don't consider a cover to
be "taking" something. I think of it more as a tribute.
>> > And I'm almost positive that you heard the bassline from "All Night Long"
>> > at least once on her first (and second) album(s).
>>
>> "All Night Long"? By whom?
>
>Mary Jane Girls. One of the MOST used basslines in hip hop, best used IMO
>on BDK's "Smooth Operator".
Oh yeah...the first thing I thought of was Lionel Ritchie's "All Night
Long"...sorry. I can't remember which song it was on her first album.
But I remember it on the second.
Peace,
*** MARBLES ***
Jakob Hellberg
ice...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
> And my bottom line is, hip-hop is good, R&B is not.
> This is NOT THE TRUTH, this is what I THINK, so we WILL NOT debate it.
> OK?
>
> --
> "The most beautifullest vocabulist be punching
> phoney MC's dead in the esophagus"
> Keith Murray
>
> Roman Sokolowski
> email: ice...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Well, I should probably send yet another bunch of recommendations to rid
you of your "narrow-mindedness" but, for once, I let it pass...
PS Check out 70's Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder, Isaac Hayes and thousands
of other great artists. In the 90's: D'angelo, Society of soul and Mary
J. Blige to mention a few... (sorry, I couldn't resist!)
Steve S. Jackson
Trey Harris (jh23...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu) wrote:
:
:
: I think that I'm going to be one of the more unpopular
: contributors on this newsgroup this year. I'm going to stop holding my
: tongue and speak my mind, whether I'm right or wrong.
:
: In this case...Will someone please clearly define the
: differences between hip-hop and R&B? Is it the musical origins? Is it
: the listeners demographics?
: For those of you who really want to separate hip-hop and R&B, I
: seriously question your passion, dedication & knowledge about black
: music.
:
: Peace,
:
: *** MARBLES ***
Okay, i'm goping to give this a whirl without reading anyone else's
response. I differntiate R&B from Hip-hop mainly from a musical
standpoint. I consider groups like Toni!Tony!Tone!, Mint Condition, and
early Boyz II Men R&B. Why? Because if you listen to their lps, they
incorporate R&B, Funk, Rock, Soul, etc (except Boyz II Men-- they're
strictly harmony) . These groups didn't just do the "ohh, baby," the
Tony's, remember, did Little Walter, JoJo, and Gangsta Groove. Mint
Condition incorporates Every kind of music available, plus hit you with
non-streotypical love songs. R&B means rhythm and blues. Since the
early 80s, the genre has strayed away from the blues end. It's always
kept it's rhythm (especially with the arrival of samples) but the blues
told of lost loves, shattered dreams, and injustices. In that sense,
hip-hop and r&b would be identical. But that is not the case. R&B does
not incorporate an MC. I don't mean someone rapping in the bridge of a
song. I'm talking an MC who raps (rappers don't and shouldn't sing) an
entire song on a topic (whether he talks of himself, "sucka emcees",
political topics, etc.). Hip-hop has the DJ. R&B has the producer.
Whereas both can, and have, incorporated live bands, r&b tends to
incorporate a definite structure (verse/chorus/verse/bridge/verse/end
chorus). Hip-hop has always relied on the improvisation (well, maybe
until recently) of the artist.
This is just surface scratching. I could probably go deeper, but I just
had an hour and a half conversation with a friend about Wu-Tang, their
importance in hip-hop, anime, martial arts, music, Transformers, video
games, and how these things are all connected.
--
"da One & Only"
Steve S. Jackson
(Writer/Author, Instrumentalist, Philosopher-for-hire)
Hootie Hoo!!!
sjac...@thunder.ocis.temple.edu
http://thunder.ocis.temple.edu/~sjackson
Official I-Phunk Homepage:
http://thunder.ocis.temple.edu/~sjackson/iph.html
God,
grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change
courage to change the things I can
and wisadom to know the difference
Trey Harris
sjac...@thunder.temple.edu (Steve S. Jackson) wrote:
>Okay, i'm goping to give this a whirl without reading anyone else's
>response. I differntiate R&B from Hip-hop mainly from a musical
>standpoint. I consider groups like Toni!Tony!Tone!, Mint Condition, and
>early Boyz II Men R&B. Why? Because if you listen to their lps, they
>incorporate R&B, Funk, Rock, Soul, etc (except Boyz II Men-- they're
>strictly harmony) . These groups didn't just do the "ohh, baby," the
>Tony's, remember, did Little Walter, JoJo, and Gangsta Groove. Mint
>Condition incorporates Every kind of music available, plus hit you with
>non-streotypical love songs. R&B means rhythm and blues. Since the
>early 80s, the genre has strayed away from the blues end. It's always
>kept it's rhythm (especially with the arrival of samples) but the blues
>told of lost loves, shattered dreams, and injustices. In that sense,
>hip-hop and r&b would be identical. But that is not the case.
This was a very nice breakdown of the differences here. I'll agree
with the idea that the current R&B trends have gotten away from the
"Blues" aspect. I think that's the most accurate, honest description of
what's happened to R&B. But let's not forget that the same thing has
happened within hip-hop.
>This is just surface scratching. I could probably go deeper, but I just
>had an hour and a half conversation with a friend about Wu-Tang, their
>importance in hip-hop, anime, martial arts, music, Transformers, video
>games, and how these things are all connected.
Peace,
*** MARBLES ***
Shyrend
dear them
i think both of them are the bomb.
i know what T.L.C means what does s.w.v mean you guys all yall have
great, and the bomb songs is there a way i can meet yall and do you guys
know brandy if do i want to meet her to
Devil's Advocate
Grifone <gri...@rad.net.id> writes:
>Who do you think is better ? TLC or SWV ?
TLC!!!!!! They look better and are more talented. They got
the funk and the spunk. SWV first ablum was good but their second
effort was ridiculously dull.
--
("\''/").___..--''"`-._
`@_ @ ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) no struggle,
Brian (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' no progress
SuPerCat _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' . ************
Treason
SWV means Sisters With Voices
yeah we can meet just call 1 900 SWV-TALK. Ask for Lelee or Koko and we
can set up a meeting place and time. And once you figure out that it was
all a prank pulled by some newsgroup punk, you'll realize you have to
put on your thinking cap before you write any more posts. Another thing
you do is get off of America Online if you want to be taken seriously.
But if you still think that R&B singers are on newsgroups you'll have to
think again, especially because this is hiphop! not R&B.
Treason
Mike Burke
Shyrend <shy...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970123234...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Dear Shyre: SWV stands for Sisters With Vaginas.
Now you know.
BabyIka
It's gotta be TLC
One Name Like Prince Productionz
is that rutgers in jersey cause you got my name kid, peopz might
confuse shit The DA aka The Devilz Advokitt, call the copyright
office, already put a record out under that name and been
performing for about five years with it...peace
THE TE...@gnn.com
tru...@hotmail.com
> Who do you think is better ? TLC or SWV ?
queen.b.is....@gmail.com
> Who do you think is better ? TLC or SWV ?