Fuck Hip-Hop
---Pete---
<< Subject: Hip Hop music
Just an article to get you guys thinking about the hip-hop industry.
FUCK HIP HOP
I know you've been thinking it. And if you haven't, you probably haven't
been paying attention. The art we once called hip hop has been dead for some
time now. But because its rotting carcass has been draped in platinum and
propped against a Gucci print car, many of us have missed its demise. I
think the time has come to bid a farewell to the last black arts movement.
It's had a good run but it no longer serves the community that spawned it.
Innovation has been replaced with mediocrity and originality replaced with
recycled nostalgia for the ghost of hip hop past, leaving nothing to look
forward to. Honestly when was the last time you heard something (mainstream)
that made you want to run around in circles and write down every word. When
was the last time you didn't feel guilty nodding your head to a song that
had a 'hot beat' after realizing the lyrical content made you cringe.
When I heard Jam Master Jay had been murdered, it was the icing on the cake.
A friend and I spoke for hours after he'd turned on the radio looking for
solace and instead heard a member of the label Murder, Inc. about to give
testimony about the slain DJ's legacy. My friend found the irony too great
to even hear what the rapper had to say.
After we got off the phone, I dug through my crates and played the single
"Self Destruction." The needle fell on the lyrics:
"They call us animals
I don't agree with them
Let's prove em wrong
But right is what were proving em"
The only thing that kept me from crying was my anger trying to imagine
today's top hip hop artists getting together to do a song that urged
disarmament in African American communities, or promoted literacy, or
involved anything bigger than themselves for that matter. I couldn't picture
it.
All I could picture were the myriad of hip hop conferences where the moguls
and figureheads go through the motions and say the things that people want
to hear but at the end of the day nothing changes. No new innovative artists
are hired to balance out a roster of the pornographic genocide MC's .
In their place, we're presented with yet more examples of arrested
development - the portrayal of grown men and women acting and dressing like
15 year olds. Balding insecure men in their mid 30's making entire songs
about their sexual prowess and what shiny toys they have and you don't. The
only hate I see is self-hate. The only love I see is self-love
All one needs to do is watch cribs and notice none of these people showing
off their heated indoor pools or the PlayStation Two consoles installed in
all twelve of their luxury cars have a library in their home. Or display a
bookshelf, for that matter. No rapper on cribs has ever been quoted saying:
"Yeah, this is the room where I do all my reading, nahmean?"
To quote Puffy in Vogue magazine Nov, 2002: "Diamonds are a great
investment... They're not only a girl's best friend, they are my best
friend. I like the way diamonds make me feel. I can't really explain it, its
like: that's a rock, something sent to me from nature, from God, it makes me
feel good... It's almost like my security cape."
If rappers read, they might know about the decades of near-slavery endured
by South African diamond miners. Or the rebels in Sierra Leone whose bloody
diamond-fueled anti-voting rampages leave thousands of innocent men, women
and children with amputated limbs.
Often, hip hop's blatant excess is rationalized with, "We came from
nothing." That statement rings hollow given even a little bit of context.
African Americans have been "coming from nothing" for 400 years. That didn't
stop previous generations of artists, activists, and ancestors from working
toward a better situation for the whole, not just themselves. It's grotesque
to see such selfish materialism celebrated by a generation who are literally
the children of apartheid.
The time has come to re-define the street and what it means to come from the
street. Yes, criminals & violence come from the streets, but so do men and
women who live their lives with kindness, and within the realm of the law.
The problem with making 'street' or 'realness' synonymous with criminality
is that poor black children are demonized. You never see the image of middle
class white children killing each other promoted as entertainment. I respect
the ability of an artist to explore the darker side or extremities of their
personality but when that's all there is, there is no balance. In previous
years, NWA existed simultaneously with Native Tongues, Cypress Hill and
Digable Planets, Gangstar and 2 live crew.
There's room for thugz, playaz, gangstas, and what have you. My issue (aside
from the fact that rappers spell everything phonetically) is that they have
no heart. Rappers reflect what has become a new image of success where money
is its own validation and caring is soft unless you're dropping a single
about your dead homie.
Question: Why haven't these so-called "ballers" gotten together and bought a
farm, a prison, a super market chain, or chartered a school? But they all
have clothing lines. Smells like a sucker to me. The lack of social
responsibility from people who claim to 'rep the streets' is stunning.
Yet we still have had the hearts and minds of most of the world. We negate
this power if we don't step up to the plate. Our perspective needs to
change; our whole idea of power needs to globalize. Gangsta shouldn't be
shooting someone you grew up with in the face "Gangsta" is calling the
United States to task for not attending the World Summit on Racism in South
Africa. "Balling" shouldn't be renting a mansion; it should be owning your
own distribution company or starting a union. Bill Cosby's bid to buy NBC
was more threatening than any screwface jewelry clad MC in a video could
ever be.
As a DJ, it's hard: I pick up the instrumental version of records thatpeople
nod their head to... and mix it with the a cappella version of artists with
something to say. It is expensive and frustrating. But I feel like the
alternative is the musical equivalent to selling crack: spinning hits
because it's easy, ignoring the fact that it's got us dancing to genocide.
There are plenty of alternatives today but you'd never know it through the
mass media. Hip hop has become Steven Seagal in a do-rag. Meanwhile, media
radar rarely registers artists like Cannibal Ox, Madlib and the whole Stones
Throw crew, Bless, Saul Williams, Bus Driver, Del, Gorillaz, anything from
Def Jux, Freestyle Fellowship, Anti Pop Consortium, Kool Keith, Prince Paul,
shit Public Enemy... the list goes on for ever. I get some solace from
knowing and supporting these artists, and from the fact that around the
world from Germany to Cuba to Brazil to South Africa, hip hop's
accessibility and capacity for genius is still vital, thriving, and
relevant.
And yes even amongst the bleak landscape in this country, wonderful things
do happen. Like Camp Cool J and various artists donating money to research
AIDS and even lend their faces to voting campaigns. Russell Simmons, among
other socially conscious endeavors, led a rally to stop NYC's mayor from
cutting the school budget and donates part of the proceeds from his sneaker
sales to the reparations movement. The lack of coverage of efforts like this
is as much to blame as any wack MC with a platinum record. I'm not dissing
the innovators of the art form, or those of us who got it where it is today.
I will always play and support what I feel is good work.
I guess this rant came more out of what Chuck D said at the end of Self
Destruction: "We've got to keep ourselves in check," and no one has checked
hip hop for some time.
I've entertained the idea that I might just be getting old. But if it's a
function of my age that I remember hip hop as the peoples champ, so be it.
It was raised on a vital art form that has now become a computer-generated
character doing the cabbage patch in a commercial, or a comedian 'raising
the roof.' That's not influence to me, that's mockery.
Hip hop my friend, it's been a great 30 years filled with great memories,
and it's been fun to watch you grow. We've got dozens of broke innovators
and plenty of mediocre millionaires out of the deal, but I really need my
space now and we've got to go our separate ways. I will always love you, but
it's time for me to move on.
Yo, what happened to peace?
Peace.
Wanna see this article in your favorite hip hop, teeny, style or music
magazine. Make one or more copies go to your local drug store supermarket
and stick them there.
If that act is to guerilla for your tastes just email it to friend.
Have fun stay blessed and smile today send all comments and questions to
www.exittheapple.com>>"
Discuss
---Pete---
bozak
"---Pete---" <hesbac...@fuckyou.com> wrote in message
news:at90hd$120kug$1...@ID-167532.news.dfncis.de...
> "In a message dated 12/9/02 9:16:45 AM, ttp...@hotmail.com writes:
>
> << Subject: Hip Hop music
> Just an article to get you guys thinking about the hip-hop industry.
>
> FUCK HIP HOP
good shit, only thing i think they failed to stress was how
powerful b e t is...
just think about all of the latch key kids coming home who
watch that garbage...
b e t = BLACK EXPLOITATION TELEVISION
the im a dumb nigga network... and if you think its getting
worse, it is...
locdogjr
but anyone know who wrote it?
Sounds like something that Kari Orr cat who used to post in here would
write.
--
Peace,
Locdogjr
Pooh
years or so. I heard the same shit from the old cats back in 92/93, and that
right there was the golden era for me. I ain't taking shit away from the
newer music, but I can't get into it as much. It doesn't mean the art form
is dead. Maybe the bullshit of BET or the radio is garbage, but you always
have your other outlets to hear some dope shit. Maybe Freeway and Joe
Buddens is wack to anyone over 21, but the kids coming up may like that
style. It's like how every generation says, yo our toys blew this garbage
away! GI Joe killed this fuckin lame ass shit out now. Maybe to us, but that
doesn't mean shit is right. It's like these idiots on here talking about Nas
is wack, but riding Barmans dick. Thats a straight up joke to me, but to
each his own, thats why I never take place in the little top 10 albums or mc
polls. If everyone liked the same shit, it be a pretty fuckin boring world.
--
Pooh
Jungle Nilz, Shaolin
"Haters is vexed, almost got hit with a tek
you gotta watch for them dustheads up in the j'ects
they get slippery when wet
ever heard the expression its real in the field?
respect it!
out in Staten Island the motto is anyone can get it....."
"locdogjr" <locd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:NBUJ9.225580$C8.6...@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.427 / Virus Database: 240 - Release Date: 12/7/2002
QUIZ!
Obviously he hasn't heard all the dope music that is still out there. Dude
needs to pay a bit more attention to whats going on around him before he
runs his mouth like this.
Jazz music still lives for those who love it. Soul music still lives for
those who love it. Rock music still lives for those who love it. Blues music
still lives for those who love it. What makes hiphop so different. All
these genres have been industrialized and pimped until they were nearly
strung out junkies... but they persisted.... and they live on. Hiphop will
do the same.
Fuck hiphop? Naw, never that. Fuck the dude who wrote that. He can take his
negativity elsewhere... the hiphop community needs that kind of bullshit
he's writing about as much as it needs P. Diddy and his blood-tainted
diamonds.
He's "leaving" his good freind hiphop? As hiphop, I say to him, "good
riddance".
peace
QUIZ!
ps. Hell does this mean we should all throw in the towel for our efforts
towards social change and revolution also, cause things are lookin pretty
shitty right now. Should we all just give up because the "revolution is
dead" and things arn't as rosy as the good old days. Whats the difference?
"---Pete---" <hesbac...@fuckyou.com> wrote in message
news:at90hd$120kug$1...@ID-167532.news.dfncis.de...
andrew
"QUIZ!" <geoff...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nHVJ9.150864$ea.28...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
Chris Zabel
about radio and BET and what they play is so old it's a cliche. I don't
know one fan of any genre(not just rap) that is happy with what mainstream
outlets play except for Britney and Nsync fans. Has anyone ever stopped to
think that there would be no Def Jux and its ilk if the mainstream
stuff(Nelly, Cash Money, etc.) wasn't around? If you're a newbie to hip hop
it's much easier to get into accessible material first and then develop and
grow as you listen to more and more stuff. Commercial stuff is mainly for
the casual fan and acts as an introduction to the more developed material.
It's like throwing someone into the deep end of the pool without telling
them how to swim.
mochaspresso
I wish the folks who are "done w/ hip-hop" would just fucking leave
already and so the rest of us can be left alone to enjoy the music.
fuck hip-hop? ba-bye......and don't let the door smack you in the ass
on your way out.
齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯漱�虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯�
Mochaspresso
Do not use a hatchet to remove a fly from a friend's forehead.
--Chinese Proverb
** Banner appears courtesy of the honorable Gortician **
Jamie
seriously....it is....
nesto
some of the regulars from "lack" of posting, along comes this post about
leaving hip hop. I'm feeling how some of ya'll came back and basically told
dude to "carry his ass" and leave hip hop well alone.
yeah hip hop has it's problems right now and who doesn't, but like many of
you said don't forget about all the music that gets no air play or exposure,
and don't forget about the "non-hip hop"- music.. BET and MTV are just
doing what they've always been doing and that's playing bullshit 24/7.. they
ain't really helping a cause unless there's money in the equation..
thank you everybody that posted for showing me there's still heads in here
that are still living this hip hop life to the fullest, and ain't letting no
bullshit post go to your head..
"QUIZ!" <geoff...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nHVJ9.150864$ea.28...@news2.calgary.shaw.ca...
Nesta
>Date: Wed, Dec 11, 2002 11:51 PM
>Sounds like something that Kari Orr cat who used to post in here would
>write.
not really
...nesta...
Most of you can't even comprehend what I am saying to you
Even in my human form the message I'm relaying
One good thing about music
When it hits you feel no pain
quest19...@webtv.net
<<I know you've been thinking it. And if you haven't, you probably
haven't been paying attention. The art we once called hip hop has been
dead for some time now. But because its rotting carcass has been draped
in platinum and propped against a Gucci print car, many of us have
missed its demise. I think the time has come to bid a farewell to the
last black arts movement. It's had a good run but it no longer serves
the community that spawned it.>>
Pete, in principle, I agree with your view. However, I didn't see
anything that I'd consider as a "positive" in your view about our
culture and that's just not the case. If you're a Hip Hopper, you have
to see some positives somewhere. Not romanticizing or embellishing the
culture, but just searching for artists, thinkers, and purveyors of the
culture. No, we can't get back to a "golden age", Hip Hop is big
business and we have to come to terms with that. I bang Wack-A-Fella as
a "label" and the artists on that label. Irredeemibly wack. We shouldn't
bang the culture that spawned them, you bang the business that resulted
from the culture. We should be able to critque the people that are
"claimed" to be the best of the best. Today, you simply have to dig for
the good music. Pop music is just that--"popular". That doesn't mean
it's good necessarily. If you're into the culture, you KNOW good work
when you hear it. The wack, you call it what it is irrespective of sales
or blind consensus BECAUSE of sales. You shouldn't be disheartened at
the culture, because it's yours. Kevin Powell, "Elemental" magazine,
J-Live, Russell Simmons, DJ Qbert, The Temple of Hip Hop or an informed,
well-read Hip Hopper---these are entities and people who keep our
culture fresh. With these, there are others. You should never be down
with all that---the question is, are you willing to do the legwork. The
mainstream ain't 'gon give you that. They always run with "the next big
thing".
PEACE!
applesauce
> The art we once called hip hop has been dead for some
> time now.
almost. i think its been dying for a while, and pretty much on its last
artistic legs right now...but i don't know about an autopsy just yet.
> But because its rotting carcass has been draped in platinum and
> propped against a Gucci print car,
wow, this fucking sentiment still blows my mind.
IF RAKIM IS YOUR GOD,
AND "PAID IN FULL" IS YOUR BIBLE...
WHO IS YOUR JESUS??
BOOTS?!?!??
NO!!!!
jay to the izzo, h to the...
j-hova.
and frankly, this guy is damn near the perfect emcee in 2002. the
prototype. i haven't heard blueprint 2 yet, but after listening to
blueprint 1 again this morning, i think he leaves very little room for
improvement on an analytical level (as an idea for an emcee -- his subject
matter, execution, personality, mannerisms, etc....he's perfect).
> I
> think the time has come to bid a farewell to the last black arts
> movement.
the last one? and he's basing this on....?
i'll bet dollars to donuts there's one waiting in the wings that will be
bigger and better than anything hip hop ever was or is. and there's one
waiting behind that one, too.
> It's had a good run but it no longer serves the community that
> spawned it.
very wrong. it perfectly (don't trip -- lets not just be pc, but be honest)
reflects the community that spawned it, presently creates it and presently
embraces it.
> Innovation has been replaced with mediocrity and originality replaced with
> recycled nostalgia for the ghost of hip hop past,
the only reason what came before was original is because the pioneers
found a field of fresh snow with no footprints. whatever they would
have done would have been original....because nothing ever existed like
hip hop before and they had a clean canvas to work with.
now motherfuckers get greeted by a field full of nike, addidas, le coq
sportif and timberland prints. its a lot harder to find some snow to step
on when you show up at landscape that's been trampled and pillaged by a gang
of creative motherfuckers for 20+ years.
and this is why i firmly believe that all musical genres inherently have
finite boundaries and a finite lifespan. you can only stretch the limits of
something so much before what you're doing becomes something else.
something so materially different from what it set out to be like that it
starts a new category. and then something altogether new is born....and
what's wrong with that?
further...why are heads so scared to see hip hop die? its really kind of
selfish if you think about it...
LET GO!
there'll be something else to replace it. you had your fun...let the next
generation that's around when something new is born have theirs. this
shit is really for the young, you know.
> Balding insecure men in their mid 30's making entire songs
> about their sexual prowess
not balding or (necessarily) insecure, but what was waterbed kev
doing? or rakim in ebony? or half the rappers in 3/4s of all the hip
hop songs ever made?
and you really claim to love hip hop?
> "Yeah, this is the room where I do all my reading, nahmean?"
> If rappers read,
> There's room for thugz, playaz, gangstas, and what have you. My
> issue (aside from the fact that rappers spell everything phonetically)
i had to read it a couple times before it crystallized for me, but there's
an unsettling and subtle racist undercurrent that runs through this paper.
peacers,
-applesauce
applesauce
what up quiz.
first off, i got respect for you from back in the days. i think you were
here when i first got on in 95, and my opinions on a gang of issues have
tended to synch pretty closely with yours. that said, i'm going to disagree
with almost everything you have to say in this post. ;->
QUIZ! <geoff...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
> Talk about JADED.
take one pint realism, add 3 cups growing old...
>This is sad... and a bunch of bullshit if you ask me.
sad -- hip hop's current state of affairs.
bunch of bullshit -- too a degree...but i think he also hits some key
stuff dead on
> Obviously he hasn't heard all the dope music that is still out there.
> Dude needs to pay a bit more attention to whats going on around him
> before he runs his mouth like this.
read closer. he has. look:
"Meanwhile, media radar rarely registers artists like Cannibal Ox, Madlib
and the whole Stones Throw crew, Bless, Saul Williams, Bus Driver, Del,
Gorillaz, anything from Def Jux, Freestyle Fellowship, Anti Pop Consortium,
Kool Keith, Prince Paul, shit Public Enemy... the list goes on for ever."
he's openly acknowledging that there's still dope hip hop being made.
and i'll agree with that. and i'll also side with him on the hip hop
being dead thing, though i'll slightly tweak it and add an 'almost'
qualifier after 'is', cause at the root, this is about RELATIVITY (not
records).
the key considerations here, for me at least, are:
-dopeness to crap ratio (objective assessment -- personal taste aside)
-rate of innovation
-annual tally of significant individual achievements
there are probably more key criteria that would be helpful when judging
the health of a genre, but i can't think of anymore right now off the top
of my head.
oh-kay, so after re-reading the original rant, it seems like the author's
discontent isn't so much rooted in the loss of our beloved hip hop,
as it is (1) disagreeing with how the folk who are collecting the majority
of the coin off this music are using it, (2) their typical/average subject
matter, and (3) being frustrated that this is the shit that gets mainstream
play and media attention.
#1 -- i empathize
#2 -- revisionist history
#3 -- there was no such thing as main stream radioplay and media
attention for hip hop during the golden or silver ages
> Jazz music still lives for those who love it. Soul music still lives for
> those who love it. Rock music still lives for those who love it. Blues
music
> still lives for those who love it.
no.
no.
kinda.
and
no.
jazz, soul, "rock and roll" (i'm gonna guess that's what you referring to)
and blues are -- for all intents and purposes -- DEAD.
dead.
to say that something is alive for those who still love it is simplistic
and a straight up fallacy. living things -- be it art forms, movements,
animals or people -- are born into this world, exhibit signs of life,
grow old, and die. it's the natural progression of things and one that
folks too often try to deny.
my mother died when i was a little kid. i still love her very much.
but is she alive? to me? to anybody?
her memory is alive...but she's dead.
jazz was a living, breathing, thriving art form in this country for more
than 50 years. it saw some significant periods of intense innovation,
had its lulls and eventually died. that doesn't mean that people can't
still go see live jazz on saturday night, or that i can't go to ameoba
tomorrow and pick up some art blakey album i've never heard
before....but it doesn't make jazz alive.
cause you gotta look at it in is proper context. what's happening
in jazz in '02 that is in any way significant in relation to what came
before it? who's doing innovative things that are in turn influencing
others to push the envelope and raise the bar? does jazz in '02
have even 1/100th of an ounce of anything on jazz in '52?
fuck no. jazz in '02 is joshua redman, and a bunch of aging, white,
middle class baby boomers in sport coats with pony tails playing
embarrassing and uninspired sax solos, attempting to recreate charlie
parker and john coltrane masterpieces, as aging, middle class white
people in dockers sit and sip overpriced scotch and feel "cultured".
cause in relative terms, and for all intents in purposes, jazz is a part of
american history now, with current day puppets acting out the scenes
of yesteryear.
> What makes hiphop so different.
nothing at all. except its not quite *that* far gone yet (though i shutter
to think of the day when aging, white, middle class gen-x'ers in girbaud
jeans will attempt to recreate classic kane and rakim songs for throngs
of...)
what does hip hop in '02 have on hip hop in '93?
nothing.
what will hip hop in '07 have on '93?
and further, what did hip hop in '93 have on hip hop in '84?
see where i'm going with this?
and just for consistencies sake, i'll append this discussion with "but it
*could* still happen" (i.e.there could be some huge creative explosion
in hip hop next summer that sustains the artform and adds another
4 years of serviceable life to its still imminent demise.....but i don't
think that's very likely), as i always do.
> Fuck hiphop? Naw, never that. Fuck the dude who wrote that. He
> can take his negativity elsewhere...
i don't think the letter is so much about fuck hip hop, more about fuck
what hip hop has become.
and i waffle on that one, too. on the one hand, nelly is just spoonie
gee reincarnated so i THROW MY HANDS IN THE AIR AND
SAY HOOOOOOO, and i grind up on the honey dip in front of me
on the dance floor.
but on the other hand, with all the capital this music has created,
we should really have a lot more of a tangible, collective edifice.
saying motherfuckers should have built librarys and started foundations
with the loot they earned off rapping about clapping motherfuckers
is probably asking too much from a cat who is probably no more
than a generation or two out of poverty, but i see the point. and
my optimistic side agrees.
other counterpoint -- hip hop has the potential to serve as a
medium to broadcast messages of upliftment and righteousness,
a catalyst for political mobility and organization, to stress the
importance of education and self restraint....
but again, with the revisionist history shit...."the message" was
much more the exception than the rule. sure, hip hop had its
consciousness and positivity stage. but as i stated in a recent post
on this same topic, i think that was much more indicative of hip
hop reflecting greater social currents than engendering them.
i think mos really did sum it up well in his intro to black on
both sides: "you know what's gonna happen with hip hop?
whatever's happenin with us....people talk about hip hop
like it's some giant livin in the hillside..."
back to the subject at hand--
to me, hip hop has become much more a tool of commerce than an
art form. i see very little art in hip hop anymore. though i can't
completely front on the video as an artistic medium, and i'll acknowledge
some people have, and are still doing interesting things with it...
most mainstream hip hop is made to move units -- period, point, blank.
a-lot of "underground" shit does nothing but pay homage to what came
before it, spouting trite keep it real-isms and failing to remember that
the aim of "real" hip hop is to give us something we've never seen or
heard before, and something heads aint ready for.
artsy hip hop gets so caught up in stressing its artsiness that it loses
sight of the fact that its still supposed to be listenable and pay at least
some tribute to what came before it, or at least have some identifiable link
to it...
and what's left? a handfull of emcees and groups that have any significance
or relevance anymore. a handfull of people (lyrics born, outkast,
aesoprock, jay-z, etc.) even trying to do anything "leaderly" in '02. a
handful of hip hop artists that i love.
but i don't love hip hop anymore. i love what hip hop was. and i love
the feeling that it gave to me for so many years when big things were
happening in the genre...and remembering that feeling gets me nostalgic
and simultaneously puts me in a really good and bad mood (happy
i got to experience what happen, bummed knowing there's very little
of that left)
when the significant artistic developments get to be fewer and further
between, innovation slows, what's new is simply what's relatively
new repackaged, money runs the show and the genre has absolute
critical mass acceptance...
there's more to look back at than there is to look forward to.
> ps. Hell does this mean we should all throw in the towel for our
> efforts towards social change and revolution also, cause things are
> lookin pretty shitty right now.
no, i don't think we can or should. i think the world people needs
people to always be fighting the good cause. and the thing is, they
can't realize that they aren't going to win....cause if they did, the
whole thing would go to shit.
respectfully,
-applesauce
applesauce
applesauce <applesauceTAST...@greasykidincorporated.com> wrote:
> or rakim in ebony?
s'cuse me: mahogany
i'm a sucker for accuracy,
-applesauce
QUIZ!
them returned :-)
and now for my response to your response, since I think you raise some good
points and worthwhile issues... I'ma take a minute to address them much like
you did mine..
> > Talk about JADED.
>
> take one pint realism, add 3 cups growing old...
To me, as much as youth can word our perspective of reality, so can growing
old. So I don't know how many cups a pint is, :-) but I would argue that
there is more growing old than realism in the original authors mix.
> >This is sad... and a bunch of bullshit if you ask me.
>
> sad -- hip hop's current state of affairs.
> bunch of bullshit -- too a degree...but i think he also hits some key
> stuff dead on
>
> > Obviously he hasn't heard all the dope music that is still out there.
> > Dude needs to pay a bit more attention to whats going on around him
> > before he runs his mouth like this.
>
> read closer. he has. look:
>
> "Meanwhile, media radar rarely registers artists like Cannibal Ox, Madlib
> and the whole Stones Throw crew, Bless, Saul Williams, Bus Driver, Del,
> Gorillaz, anything from Def Jux, Freestyle Fellowship, Anti Pop
Consortium,
> Kool Keith, Prince Paul, shit Public Enemy... the list goes on for ever."
>
> he's openly acknowledging that there's still dope hip hop being made.
> and i'll agree with that. and i'll also side with him on the hip hop
> being dead thing, though i'll slightly tweak it and add an 'almost'
> qualifier after 'is', cause at the root, this is about RELATIVITY (not
> records).
>
> the key considerations here, for me at least, are:
>
> -dopeness to crap ratio (objective assessment -- personal taste aside)
> -rate of innovation
> -annual tally of significant individual achievements
There, you said it, and its a theme that continues through the remainder of
your post (and the approahces of so many people towards music these days)..
From where I stand, hiphop is NOT about innovation, and I would most
certainly not judge its "life or death" status based on the rate of
innovation. To me, hip hop is about nothing more than self expression
through a dope beat, a dope rhyme, and having fun. Why do so many people
equate quality and worthiness of music these days to "innovation".
Innovation is a Western ideal and obsession that most other cultures and
societies throughout history have had a healthy fear of. They relied on
tradition.... repeating the same formulas for hundreds if not thousands of
years.. and those formulas meant a great deal to the people who maintained
the. To me, hiphop can rely on the good old boom-bap with scratches and a
dope emcee formula for the rest of time and I'll still love it as long as
the artists put their heart and soul into what they are doing. I could care
a less if people are "innovating the art form" with every record they put
out. I seem to be in the minority when it comes to scholars of hiphop these
days though... or even scholars of music period.
Now, that said, I would argue there has been, and continues to be PLENTY of
innovation in recent hiphop. Most hiphop from 2000-2003 sounds nothing like
hiphop from the mid nineties for example (and thats not always just a result
of commercialized production-line crap). Take these southern hiphop rythms
and flows for example that are all over BET right now. Look at the changes
Busta Rhymes and Timberland jjave brought to the usual patterns. Look at how
synths and live instruments are being brought into the mix and people are
trying new things and straying away from sampling. Who was rhyming like
Nelly does 10 years ago? Just cause cats from that era aint feelin it don't
mean its not innovative.
Are you sure you really feel the rate of innovation has gone down, or is it
just that as you get older you find you don't relate to the latest
innovations?
(I don't relate to much of it, and I'm not diggin most of it, but I still
don't think that means hiphop is dead just because it doesn't mean to me
what it used to mean)
> there are probably more key criteria that would be helpful when judging
> the health of a genre, but i can't think of anymore right now off the top
> of my head.
>
> oh-kay, so after re-reading the original rant, it seems like the author's
> discontent isn't so much rooted in the loss of our beloved hip hop,
> as it is (1) disagreeing with how the folk who are collecting the majority
> of the coin off this music are using it, (2) their typical/average subject
> matter, and (3) being frustrated that this is the shit that gets
mainstream
> play and media attention.
Now there I agree with you for sure. That is exactly where his discontent
lies. I empathize with his discontent for the most part by the way. I didn't
make that very clear in my original response mainly because I was irritated
by his "hiphop is dead" proclamation, which I think is not only an arrogant
statement on his part, but an incorrect one at that.
> #1 -- i empathize
> #2 -- revisionist history
> #3 -- there was no such thing as main stream radioplay and media
> attention for hip hop during the golden or silver ages
Indeed.
> > Jazz music still lives for those who love it. Soul music still lives for
> > those who love it. Rock music still lives for those who love it. Blues
> music
> > still lives for those who love it.
>
> no.
> no.
> kinda.
> and
> no.
>
> jazz, soul, "rock and roll" (i'm gonna guess that's what you referring to)
> and blues are -- for all intents and purposes -- DEAD.
>
> dead.
>
> to say that something is alive for those who still love it is simplistic
> and a straight up fallacy. living things -- be it art forms, movements,
> animals or people -- are born into this world, exhibit signs of life,
> grow old, and die. it's the natural progression of things and one that
> folks too often try to deny.
>
> my mother died when i was a little kid. i still love her very much.
> but is she alive? to me? to anybody?
Dude I hope I'm not striking a chord of being offensive here, please dont'
take this the wrong way, and I'm sorry to hear about your loss, but since
you make the comparison... I'ma build on it: If you could go and spend a
night with your mother right now, have a conversation with her, give her a
hug, etc, she would be alive right? The fact is, so far as I see it, if I
so choose I can still go and do these things (metaphorically) with any of
the above mentioned art forms, including hiphop.
> her memory is alive...but she's dead.
If that was the case with jazz, then I couldn't go down to my local live
jazz venue and vibe with a group of people who LOVE and appreciate jazz just
as much as anybody did when it was at its height of popular appeal or its
"golden age". Jazz is not dead, its just not the same as it used to be..
just like hiphop isn't the same as it used to be... doesn't mean its dead...
just means it changed. I guess some people didn't like the changes and
declared it dead. Geez.. I hop my freinds never do that to me... and end
up getting buried alive if I started telling people I wasn't a hiphopper
anymore. :) Quiz changed... he's dead... time for a funeral!!!
>
> jazz was a living, breathing, thriving art form in this country for more
> than 50 years. it saw some significant periods of intense innovation,
> had its lulls and eventually died. that doesn't mean that people can't
> still go see live jazz on saturday night, or that i can't go to ameoba
> tomorrow and pick up some art blakey album i've never heard
> before....but it doesn't make jazz alive.
I think it does make it alive. Why does it have to die? Its not a person...
its an art form. Art only die when people stop practising them. They don't
die just because people stop "innovating" them.
> cause you gotta look at it in is proper context. what's happening
> in jazz in '02 that is in any way significant in relation to what came
> before it? who's doing innovative things that are in turn influencing
> others to push the envelope and raise the bar? does jazz in '02
> have even 1/100th of an ounce of anything on jazz in '52?
Personally, from some of the jazz musicians I've heard, I think its still
got a lot of what it did in '52.
> fuck no. jazz in '02 is joshua redman, and a bunch of aging, white,
> middle class baby boomers in sport coats with pony tails playing
> embarrassing and uninspired sax solos, attempting to recreate charlie
> parker and john coltrane masterpieces, as aging, middle class white
> people in dockers sit and sip overpriced scotch and feel "cultured".
Obviously you and I arn't going to the same jazz venues. Last one I was at
all the performers were black except for one if memory serves, and they were
all extremely talented and obviously loved what they were doing with every
ounce of their heart. To me... that means jazz is alive. It might not be
the vibrant young new art form is was in the 50's.... but its not dead, and
it won't be until people stop playing it with heart and soul. Its that
simple. To me anyways...
> cause in relative terms, and for all intents in purposes, jazz is a part
of
> american history now, with current day puppets acting out the scenes
> of yesteryear.
I don't agree for two reasons. 1. An art form doesn't die just because
people stop changing it and pushing the envelope. 2. I think there are still
plenty of jazz musicians who bring their own epxeriences, soul and character
to the music, even if they're playing the same 'ol classic songs, they doing
with with their own unique approach and personality. Just because this
doesn't happen on the scale it used to in the 50's doesn't make the art form
a lost or dead one.
If I was a jazz musician i'd probably be offended by what you said. As a
hiphop artist I am a bit offended because you are implying that unless I'm
somehow pushing the envelope of hiphop with my music that I'm basically just
trying to act out the scenes of yesteryear and I'm not really contributing
to the art or keeping it alive. I don't think I feel that way when I'm in
the studio.. in fact I know I don't...
> > What makes hiphop so different.
>
> nothing at all. except its not quite *that* far gone yet (though i
shutter
> to think of the day when aging, white, middle class gen-x'ers in girbaud
> jeans will attempt to recreate classic kane and rakim songs for throngs
> of...)
>
> what does hip hop in '02 have on hip hop in '93?
>
> nothing.
Lots. To some who cling to the sounds of old its worse. People who can't
accept change. I'd reverse that question and ask you to explain to me
exactly what does hiphop in '93 have on hiphop in '02.
I think you might fnd the answer to that question lies more in you own age
and connectedness with the music than it does in the actual substance of the
hiphop thats out there. I think there are still many hiphop artists and
plenty of hiphop songs out there that mean just as much to younger kids
these days as Black Moon and Tribe Called Quest meant to us.
> what will hip hop in '07 have on '93?
>
> and further, what did hip hop in '93 have on hip hop in '84?
>
> see where i'm going with this?
>
> and just for consistencies sake, i'll append this discussion with "but it
> *could* still happen" (i.e.there could be some huge creative explosion
> in hip hop next summer that sustains the artform and adds another
> 4 years of serviceable life to its still imminent demise.....but i don't
> think that's very likely), as i always do.
>
> > Fuck hiphop? Naw, never that. Fuck the dude who wrote that. He
> > can take his negativity elsewhere...
>
> i don't think the letter is so much about fuck hip hop, more about fuck
> what hip hop has become.
Agreed. But just because he doesn't like what its become doesn't mean its
dead. It just means he doesn't connect with it like he used to.
Just because a person doesn't like Electric Circus as much as he likes
Ressurection doesn't mean Electric Circus is less "hiphop" that Ressurection
is.
What REALLY is the difference between Nelly and Naughty By Nature?
> and i waffle on that one, too. on the one hand, nelly is just spoonie
> gee reincarnated so i THROW MY HANDS IN THE AIR AND
> SAY HOOOOOOO, and i grind up on the honey dip in front of me
> on the dance floor.
>
> but on the other hand, with all the capital this music has created,
> we should really have a lot more of a tangible, collective edifice.
> saying motherfuckers should have built librarys and started foundations
> with the loot they earned off rapping about clapping motherfuckers
> is probably asking too much from a cat who is probably no more
> than a generation or two out of poverty, but i see the point. and
> my optimistic side agrees.
What rappers have done with their money has no bearing on the "life" status
of hiphop.
> other counterpoint -- hip hop has the potential to serve as a
> medium to broadcast messages of upliftment and righteousness,
> a catalyst for political mobility and organization, to stress the
> importance of education and self restraint....
>
> but again, with the revisionist history shit...."the message" was
> much more the exception than the rule. sure, hip hop had its
> consciousness and positivity stage. but as i stated in a recent post
> on this same topic, i think that was much more indicative of hip
> hop reflecting greater social currents than engendering them.
Hip hop is not and never has been about being conscious. So its level of
"consciousness" is not in any way related to how alive it is.
Cats these days act like Rakim wasn't wearing jewelry, doing videos in
mansions he didn't own and driving cars he couldn't afford.
> i think mos really did sum it up well in his intro to black on
> both sides: "you know what's gonna happen with hip hop?
> whatever's happenin with us....people talk about hip hop
> like it's some giant livin in the hillside..."
yup... exactly why hiphop is alive and well in my opinion. Are we dead? I'm
not... so hiphop lives.
> back to the subject at hand--
>
> to me, hip hop has become much more a tool of commerce than an
> art form. i see very little art in hip hop anymore. though i can't
> completely front on the video as an artistic medium, and i'll acknowledge
> some people have, and are still doing interesting things with it...
>
> most mainstream hip hop is made to move units -- period, point, blank.
>
>
> a-lot of "underground" shit does nothing but pay homage to what came
> before it, spouting trite keep it real-isms and failing to remember that
> the aim of "real" hip hop is to give us something we've never seen or
> heard before, and something heads aint ready for.
Nope, I disagree. First of all, please refer to my comments about people
placing too much emphasis on the role innovation plays in an art form.
Secondly, had heads even seen anything like Cannibal Ox before they dropped?
No. Were heads ready for Electric Circus? No. Were heads ready for Black
Eyed Peas? No. Is Mr Lif just spouting the same styles we heard in 1995, no.
is Blackalicious sounding anything like anything from the 90's? No. Is Jean
Grae coming with some typical same old thing rap music? No. Dude the list
goes on and on and on and on.... there are hundreds of emcees probably who
are bringing something fresh to this genre right now... probably more than
there ever has been before. Sure SOME underground hiphop is just paying
homage to what came before it, but there's A LOT that isn't doing that....
you gonna just ignore those artists and declare them irrelevent? Ok maybe
you're not.. but the guy who wrote the "Fuck Hip Hop" article sure is.
> artsy hip hop gets so caught up in stressing its artsiness that it loses
> sight of the fact that its still supposed to be listenable and pay at
least
> some tribute to what came before it, or at least have some identifiable
link
> to it...
Yet again, we go by what you personally deem is too much or too little
innovation. Dude... just ause it don't appeal to you don't make it not good
or not "living, breathing" hiphop
> and what's left? a handfull of emcees and groups that have any
significance
> or relevance anymore. a handfull of people (lyrics born, outkast,
> aesoprock, jay-z, etc.) even trying to do anything "leaderly" in '02. a
> handful of hip hop artists that i love.
>
> but i don't love hip hop anymore. i love what hip hop was. and i love
> the feeling that it gave to me for so many years when big things were
> happening in the genre...and remembering that feeling gets me nostalgic
> and simultaneously puts me in a really good and bad mood (happy
> i got to experience what happen, bummed knowing there's very little
> of that left)
>
> when the significant artistic developments get to be fewer and further
> between, innovation slows, what's new is simply what's relatively
> new repackaged, money runs the show and the genre has absolute
> critical mass acceptance...
>
> there's more to look back at than there is to look forward to.
For you personally. But that doesn't make hiphop dead. It makes it less
interesting to you now that it used to be. Thats all. For those of us who
are still interested in whats going on, hiphop is alive and well and
growing.
As I see it, peeps are just blinded by the power of the commercial rap
industry right now. Nothing is really all that different about today from
5-10 years ago... except there are a lot more MC Hammers and Vanilla Ice's
out there.... thats all.
Well, that and Eminem... he's sigificant in his own way in a way that there
is no comparison to 1995... but still :)
> > ps. Hell does this mean we should all throw in the towel for our
> > efforts towards social change and revolution also, cause things are
> > lookin pretty shitty right now.
>
> no, i don't think we can or should. i think the world people needs
> people to always be fighting the good cause. and the thing is, they
> can't realize that they aren't going to win....cause if they did, the
> whole thing would go to shit.
But you think they're not going to win, you'd just prefer if they didn't
realise it?
most enoyable discussion on this board in a long time
thanks for your thoughts dude...
and obviously if I sound aggressive its only cause I'm a passionate person
when it comes to this subject... not meaning to sound like I'm trying to
start a fight :)
peace...
QUIZ
www.nextra.ca
QUIZ!
growing
> old. So I don't know how many cups a pint is, :-) but I would argue that
> there is more growing old than realism in the original authors mix.
word = warp :-)
its the middle of the night and i've been staring at a computer screen
writing HTML & ASP code all day....... i really hope the rest of my long-ass
post makes at least some sense... :)
TJ Xenos
T.J. Xenos
xen...@student.wit.edu
"And I don't have to worry, only worry is him
She do anything necessary for him
And I do anything necessary for her
so don't let the necessary occur, yep!"
---Pete---
Hold up! I didn't write the post. A friend forwarded it to me and I thought
it would be a good piece to discuss here on RMHH so I posted it. I think it
originated as an article on www.exittheapple.com But your post closely
matches my feelings on the subject.
---Pete---
QUIZ!
-----
note: I posted two versions of this, read this one not the other one. I
"cancelled" the first version but who knows if all the servers will
cooperate :-). Not a big deal, this one is just a little more refined...
edited a bit.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
w'sup man. Thanks for the opening acknowledgments/respects, consider
them returned. :-)
...and now for my response to your response, since I think you raise some
good
points and worthwhile issues... I'ma take a minute to address them much like
you did mine..
> > Talk about JADED.
>
> take one pint realism, add 3 cups growing old...
I don't know how many cups a pint is, :-) but I would argue that
there is more growing old than realism in the original authors mix.
> >This is sad... and a bunch of bullshit if you ask me.
>
> sad -- hip hop's current state of affairs.
> bunch of bullshit -- too a degree...but i think he also hits some key
> stuff dead on
>
> > Obviously he hasn't heard all the dope music that is still out there.
> > Dude needs to pay a bit more attention to whats going on around him
> > before he runs his mouth like this.
>
> read closer. he has. look:
>
> "Meanwhile, media radar rarely registers artists like Cannibal Ox, Madlib
> and the whole Stones Throw crew, Bless, Saul Williams, Bus Driver, Del,
> Gorillaz, anything from Def Jux, Freestyle Fellowship, Anti Pop
Consortium,
> Kool Keith, Prince Paul, shit Public Enemy... the list goes on for ever."
>
> he's openly acknowledging that there's still dope hip hop being made.
> and i'll agree with that. and i'll also side with him on the hip hop
> being dead thing, though i'll slightly tweak it and add an 'almost'
> qualifier after 'is', cause at the root, this is about RELATIVITY (not
> records).
Even if he did acknowledge their existence.... he infers from the fact the
the mainstream hiphop media radar misses a lot of these artists that somehow
mainstream attention is what defines the significance of these artists. The
innovators and the dope artists were there before mainstream hiphop media
existed and they'll be there after it dissapears.... mainstream media
coverage has nothing to do with the life/death status of hiphop.
I ask the original author.... why does mainstream media coverage of "real"
hiphop determine wether hiphop is worth staying "freinds" with or wether its
alive or not? Have we become so dependent on the Source and RapCity that if
they don't cover the artists the we like and respect that must mean hiphop
as an art form is dead? Say what?!?!
> the key considerations here, for me at least, are:
>
> -dopeness to crap ratio (objective assessment -- personal taste aside)
> -rate of innovation
Innovations is nice to have in an art, but to me its not a crucial
component.
To me, hiphop is not about innovation, and I would most
certainly not judge its "life or death" status based on the rate of
innovation. Hip hop to me is about self expression
with a dope beat, a dope rhyme, and having fun.
Innovation is a Western ideal and obsession that most other cultures and
societies throughout history have had a healthy fear of. They relied on
tradition.... repeating the same formulas for hundreds if not thousands of
years.. and those formulas meant a great deal to the people who maintained
the. To me, hiphop can rely on the good old boom-bap with scratches and a
dope emcee formula for the rest of time and I'll still love it as long as
the artists put their heart and soul into what they are doing. I could care
a less if people are "innovating the art form" with every record they put
out. I seem to be in the minority when it comes to scholars of hiphop these
days though... or even scholars of music period.
But even if we did agree on your condition of innovation I would still argue
there has been, and continues to be, plenty of
innovation in recent hiphop. For example, most hiphop from 2000-2003 sounds
nothing like
hiphop from the mid nineties (and thats not always just a result
of commercialized production-line crap). Eg: even in highly commercial rap
there has been innovation... such as the new southern "dirty south" hiphop
rythms
and flows for example that are all over BET right now. How about the changes
Busta Rhymes and Timberland have brought to the usual rhyme/rythm patterns.
Also how
synths and live instruments are being brought into the mix and people are
trying new things and straying away from sampling. Who was rhyming like
Nelly does 10 years ago? Just cause cats from that era aint feelin the new
styles doesn't mean those new styles are not innovative.
Are you sure you really feel the rate of innovation has gone down, or is it
just that as you get older you find you don't relate to the latest
innovations?
> -annual tally of significant individual achievements
>
> there are probably more key criteria that would be helpful when judging
> the health of a genre, but i can't think of anymore right now off the top
> of my head.
>
> oh-kay, so after re-reading the original rant, it seems like the author's
> discontent isn't so much rooted in the loss of our beloved hip hop,
> as it is (1) disagreeing with how the folk who are collecting the majority
> of the coin off this music are using it, (2) their typical/average subject
> matter, and (3) being frustrated that this is the shit that gets
mainstream
> play and media attention.
Now there I agree with you for sure. That is exactly where his discontent
lies. I empathize with his much of his discontent for the most part by the
way - I don't like the state of commercial hiphop that much either in many
ways - the difference is I don't worry about it as much as he does. I didn't
make that very clear in my original response mainly because I was irritated
by his "hiphop is dead" proclamation. But I think there is a big difference
between saying hiphop is in an unappealing state right now and saying it is
dead or dying.
> #1 -- i empathize
> #2 -- revisionist history
> #3 -- there was no such thing as main stream radioplay and media
> attention for hip hop during the golden or silver ages
>
> > Jazz music still lives for those who love it. Soul music still lives for
> > those who love it. Rock music still lives for those who love it. Blues
> music
> > still lives for those who love it.
>
> no.
> no.
> kinda.
> and
> no.
>
> jazz, soul, "rock and roll" (i'm gonna guess that's what you referring to)
> and blues are -- for all intents and purposes -- DEAD.
>
> dead.
>
> to say that something is alive for those who still love it is simplistic
> and a straight up fallacy. living things -- be it art forms, movements,
> animals or people -- are born into this world, exhibit signs of life,
> grow old, and die. it's the natural progression of things and one that
> folks too often try to deny.
>
> my mother died when i was a little kid. i still love her very much.
> but is she alive? to me? to anybody?
Dude I hope I'm not striking a chord of being offensive here, please dont'
take this the wrong way, and I'm sorry to hear about your loss, but since
you make the comparison... I'ma build on it: If you could go and spend a
night with your mother right now, have a conversation with her, give her a
hug, etc, she would be alive right? The fact is, so far as I see it, if I
so choose I can still go and do these things (metaphorically) with any of
the above mentioned art forms, including hiphop.
> her memory is alive...but she's dead.
If that was the case with jazz, then I couldn't do what I can do ---> go
down to my local live
jazz venue and vibe with a group of people who LOVE and appreciate jazz just
as much as anybody did when it was at its height of popular appeal or its
"golden age". Jazz is not dead, its just not the same as it used to be...
its not in its golden age anymore... but that doesn't mean its dead. Just
like I'm not 16 anymore, but that doesn't make me dead, or even close to
dying :-).
Hiphop isn't the same as it used to be... and its past its golden age, but
thats doesn't mean its dead... or even close to dying... that
just means it changed.
Some people don't like the changes and
decide to declare its dead. But I see something wrong with that. I mean
wow.... I hope my freinds never do that to me... if I started telling
people I wasn't a hiphopper
anymore. :) they'd be like oh Quiz changed... we don't like the new Quiz...
he must be dead... time for a funeral!!! :-P
>
> jazz was a living, breathing, thriving art form in this country for more
> than 50 years. it saw some significant periods of intense innovation,
> had its lulls and eventually died. that doesn't mean that people can't
> still go see live jazz on saturday night, or that i can't go to ameoba
> tomorrow and pick up some art blakey album i've never heard
> before....but it doesn't make jazz alive.
I think it does make it alive. I agree, like all living things, art forms
eventually die out... but to me they only die when people stop practising
them, not when I decide they're not "fresh" anymore.
> cause you gotta look at it in is proper context. what's happening
> in jazz in '02 that is in any way significant in relation to what came
> before it? who's doing innovative things that are in turn influencing
> others to push the envelope and raise the bar? does jazz in '02
> have even 1/100th of an ounce of anything on jazz in '52?
Well, see, to me pushing the bar isn't what defines how alive an art form
is, so this argument holds little water. But still, even if its only got
1/100th of an ounce of the innovation etc it had in '52... its still
alive... its just not what it was in 1952. Sure its golden days are gone..
but as long as people love creating jazz music... jazz music will live on.
Humans get old and look very different from how they looked when they were
young fresh and innocent. There is a different between changing and dying...
I think hiphop is changing... getting older.... I dont think its dying. Not
yet anyways.. not for a while yet.
> fuck no. jazz in '02 is joshua redman, and a bunch of aging, white,
> middle class baby boomers in sport coats with pony tails playing
> embarrassing and uninspired sax solos, attempting to recreate charlie
> parker and john coltrane masterpieces, as aging, middle class white
> people in dockers sit and sip overpriced scotch and feel "cultured".
I understand where you are coming from, and I feel you, there's plenty of
truth in what you say........ but I want balance that by saying that the
last jazz night I was at all the performers were black except for one if
memory serves, and they were
all extremely talented and obviously loved what they were doing with every
ounce of their heart. To me... that means jazz is alive. It might not be
the vibrant young new art form is was in the 50's.... but its not dead, and
it won't be until people stop playing it with heart and soul. Its that
simple. To me anyways...
> cause in relative terms, and for all intents in purposes, jazz is a part
of
> american history now, with current day puppets acting out the scenes
> of yesteryear.
I don't agree for two reasons. 1. An art form doesn't die just because
people stop changing it and pushing the envelope. 2. I think there are still
plenty of jazz musicians who bring their own epxeriences, soul and character
to the music, even if they're playing the same 'ol classic songs, they doing
with with their own unique approach and personality. Just because this
doesn't happen on the scale it used to in the 50's doesn't make the art form
a lost or dead one.
If I was a jazz musician i'd probably be offended by what you said. As a
hiphop artist I am a bit offended because you are implying that unless I'm
somehow pushing the envelope of hiphop with my music that I'm basically just
trying to act out the scenes of yesteryear and I'm not really contributing
to the art or keeping it alive. I don't think I feel that way when I'm in
the studio.. in fact I know I don't...
> > What makes hiphop so different.
>
> nothing at all. except its not quite *that* far gone yet (though i
shutter
> to think of the day when aging, white, middle class gen-x'ers in girbaud
> jeans will attempt to recreate classic kane and rakim songs for throngs
> of...)
>
> what does hip hop in '02 have on hip hop in '93?
>
> nothing.
I dunno, its different, and because of my age, I'll always cherish the
hiphop of 93 more than the hiphop of today, but I don't think my favorite
emcee Common is any weaker a hiphop artist or any less signficant today than
he was in 1993.. he's just different, thats all. And he's drowned out by an
insanly commercialized industry so it makes it seem like there are fewer
Common's than there were ten years ago, when in actual fact there are just
as many Commons and about 10 times as many MC Hammers.
> what will hip hop in '07 have on '93?
>
> and further, what did hip hop in '93 have on hip hop in '84?
>
> see where i'm going with this?
>
> and just for consistencies sake, i'll append this discussion with "but it
> *could* still happen" (i.e.there could be some huge creative explosion
> in hip hop next summer that sustains the artform and adds another
> 4 years of serviceable life to its still imminent demise.....but i don't
> think that's very likely), as i always do.
>
> > Fuck hiphop? Naw, never that. Fuck the dude who wrote that. He
> > can take his negativity elsewhere...
>
> i don't think the letter is so much about fuck hip hop, more about fuck
> what hip hop has become.
Agreed. But just because he doesn't like what its become doesn't mean its
dead. It just means he doesn't connect with it like he used to don't mean
its dead.
Just because a person doesn't like Electric Circus as much as he likes
Ressurection doesn't mean Electric Circus is less "hiphop" that Ressurection
is.
> and i waffle on that one, too. on the one hand, nelly is just spoonie
> gee reincarnated so i THROW MY HANDS IN THE AIR AND
> SAY HOOOOOOO, and i grind up on the honey dip in front of me
> on the dance floor.
>
> but on the other hand, with all the capital this music has created,
> we should really have a lot more of a tangible, collective edifice.
> saying motherfuckers should have built librarys and started foundations
> with the loot they earned off rapping about clapping motherfuckers
> is probably asking too much from a cat who is probably no more
> than a generation or two out of poverty, but i see the point. and
> my optimistic side agrees.
What rappers have done with their money has no bearing on the "life" status
of hiphop.
> other counterpoint -- hip hop has the potential to serve as a
> medium to broadcast messages of upliftment and righteousness,
> a catalyst for political mobility and organization, to stress the
> importance of education and self restraint....
>
> but again, with the revisionist history shit...."the message" was
> much more the exception than the rule. sure, hip hop had its
> consciousness and positivity stage. but as i stated in a recent post
> on this same topic, i think that was much more indicative of hip
> hop reflecting greater social currents than engendering them.
Hip hop is not and never has been about being conscious. So its level of
"consciousness" is not in any way related to how alive it is.
Some cats these days act like Rakim wasn't wearing jewelry, doing videos in
mansions he didn't own and driving cars he couldn't afford. :-) They need
to pull out their old Rapcity video tapes and check their facts :).
> i think mos really did sum it up well in his intro to black on
> both sides: "you know what's gonna happen with hip hop?
> whatever's happenin with us....people talk about hip hop
> like it's some giant livin in the hillside..."
yup... which is exactly why hiphop is alive and well in my opinion.
Are we dead? I'm not dead... not even close... (i pray) :-)
> back to the subject at hand--
>
> to me, hip hop has become much more a tool of commerce than an
> art form. i see very little art in hip hop anymore. though i can't
> completely front on the video as an artistic medium, and i'll acknowledge
> some people have, and are still doing interesting things with it...
>
> most mainstream hip hop is made to move units -- period, point, blank.
>
>
> a-lot of "underground" shit does nothing but pay homage to what came
> before it, spouting trite keep it real-isms and failing to remember that
> the aim of "real" hip hop is to give us something we've never seen or
> heard before, and something heads aint ready for.
I disagree.
First of all, see my comments about people
placing too much emphasis on the role innovation plays in an art form.
Secondly, had heads even seen anything like Cannibal Ox before they dropped?
No. Were heads ready for Electric Circus? No. Were heads ready for Black
Eyed Peas? No. Is Mr Lif just spouting the same styles we heard in 1995, no.
is Blackalicious sounding anything like anything from the 90's? No. Is Jean
Grae coming with some typical same old thing rap music? No.
The list goes on and on and on and on.... there are probably hundreds of
emcees who
are bringing something fresh to this genre right now... perhaps more than
there ever has been before.
Sure a lot of underground hiphop is just paying homage to what came before
it, but there is a lot that isn't doing that.... how can we ignore all those
artists?
Ok maybe you're not ignoring them, but the guy who wrote the "Fuck Hip Hop"
article sure is.
> artsy hip hop gets so caught up in stressing its artsiness that it loses
> sight of the fact that its still supposed to be listenable and pay at
least
> some tribute to what came before it, or at least have some identifiable
link
> to it...
Yet again, we go by what you personally deem is too much or too little
innovation. I say, just cause it don't appeal doesn't mean its not "living,
breathing" hiphop. All it means is its hiphop that you're not feelin.
> and what's left? a handfull of emcees and groups that have any
significance
> or relevance anymore. a handfull of people (lyrics born, outkast,
> aesoprock, jay-z, etc.) even trying to do anything "leaderly" in '02. a
> handful of hip hop artists that i love.
>
> but i don't love hip hop anymore. i love what hip hop was. and i love
> the feeling that it gave to me for so many years when big things were
> happening in the genre...and remembering that feeling gets me nostalgic
> and simultaneously puts me in a really good and bad mood (happy
> i got to experience what happen, bummed knowing there's very little
> of that left)
>
> when the significant artistic developments get to be fewer and further
> between, innovation slows, what's new is simply what's relatively
> new repackaged, money runs the show and the genre has absolute
> critical mass acceptance...
>
> there's more to look back at than there is to look forward to.
For you personally. But that doesn't make hiphop dead. It makes it less
interesting to you now that it used to be. Thats all. For those who
are still interested in whats going on, hiphop is alive and well and
growing.
As I see it, peeps are just blinded by the power of the commercial rap
industry right now. There are a lot more MC Hammers and Vanilla Ice's
out there.... a lot more commercial hiphop acts... a lot more commercial
hiphop media... so it makes things look more depressing than they actually
are. Take away all those commercial artists and all those commercial
magazines and TV shows and you're still left with a lot of very talented
hiphop artists who love what they do and have large international
followings.
> > ps. Hell does this mean we should all throw in the towel for our
> > efforts towards social change and revolution also, cause things are
> > lookin pretty shitty right now.
>
> no, i don't think we can or should. i think the world people needs
> people to always be fighting the good cause. and the thing is, they
> can't realize that they aren't going to win....cause if they did, the
> whole thing would go to shit.
But you think they're not going to win, you'd just prefer if they didn't
realise it?
A most enoyable discussion - one of the most enjoyable on this newsgroup in
a long time.
Thanks for your thoughts dude... hope mine make some sense.. its late and
I'm probably rambling more than I realise :)
peace...
QUIZ
www.nextra.ca
applesauce
QUIZ! <geoff...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:
> note: I posted two versions of this, read this one not the other one.
copy.
> mainstream media
> coverage has nothing to do with the life/death status of hiphop.
agreed. i tried to call that out in my post too...hope it came through.
> > the key considerations here, for me at least, are:
> >
> > -dopeness to crap ratio (objective assessment -- personal taste aside)
> > -rate of innovation
>
> Innovations is nice to have in an art, but to me its not a crucial
> component.
> To me, hiphop is not about innovation, and I would most
> certainly not judge its "life or death" status based on the rate of
> innovation. Hip hop to me is about self expression
> with a dope beat, a dope rhyme, and having fun.
yeah, i can't knock the validity of that stance. hip hop is very
much about those things. but i also think that's a pretty simplified
way of examining the health of an art form, and trying to identify
where it stands in its life cycle.
let me just preface this by saying that i'm not trying to change your
mind here, or sway you (or anybody) to agree with my assertion
that hip hop is almost artistically dead. its the conclusion i've come
to after a lot of careful analysis and invested thought...and it's based
on the criteria i'm using to evaluate the health of the genre.
(innovation, outstanding individual achievements, dope vs. crap
ratio, etc.).
i'm not trying to impose my key performance indicators on others.
its up to each person to arrive at these conclusions on their
own...i just ask that people think this stuff through thoroughly.
that said, i have to disagree with your view on the importance of
innovation in art, and also in hop hop.
maybe the term "innovation" doesn't properly capture what i'm
trying to convey, either. its a mix of doing something that hasn't
been done before, exhibiting creativity, not just being stagnant
and recreating a bunch of cookie cutter crap (even if it is very
self expressive).
think of it in a battle context. if you're battling another emcee,
are you gonna win the battle if you just copy what he did? if
you're only as dope as he is? if you're just self expressive?
you went second!
what kinds of figures does this sub-culture revere? folks
like Rakim, Kane, Chuck D, Tribe, De La, KRS, the piklz,
Dig P's, Primo, Pete Rock, etc. etc. folks that broke new
ground...were influential...and left this shit better than they
found it.
and that's really a super key piece of this puzzle for me, too --
influence.
in most artistic circles, the value of an artist is largely determined by
examining their influence. how many people tried to be like them.
movements they set in motion. shit like that.
my beef with the lack of innovation in present day jazz and hip hop
can be better conveyed with a question:
who are emcees and alto saxophonists 10 years from now going
to aspire to be like?
black eyed peas...or tribe?
dilated peoples....or gangstarr?
ja rule...or tupac?
jay z.....or rakim?
> Innovation is a Western ideal and obsession that most other cultures and
> societies throughout history have had a healthy fear of. They relied on
> tradition.... repeating the same formulas for hundreds if not thousands of
> years.. and those formulas meant a great deal to the people who maintained
> them.
this is a super interesting counter point and one i've never seen anybody
bring up when i'm having this 'hip hop is gonna die' argument. i'd
need to give this some more thought...but my initial reaction is that
hip hop is a western (and specifically, american) invention and we
almost have to examine it in a western context. i was born and
raised in a capitalistic society and i guess that aesthetic tends to
bleed into just about everything....even the way i evaluate art.
> To me, hiphop can rely on the good old boom-bap with scratches and a
> dope emcee formula for the rest of time and I'll still love it as long as
> the artists put their heart and soul into what they are doing.
right on. and that's a personal thing...and i'm stoked for you for that.
i just have a hard time subscribing to it.
> I could care
> less if people are "innovating the art form" with every record they put
> out.
to me, innovation is necessary to keep my interest. when i hear the
same ol, same ol, again and again...it just gets boring.
case in point: the new jurrasic 5 record.
i'll be the first to admit, from limited listens mind you, that it's a well
put together record. the flows are respectable, the beats are moving,
time & thought went into the lyrics. its everything a hip hop record
"should be". but its also kind of boring for me to listen to because
everything on there has been done before.
i appreciate "what's golden" for what it is, and i'll dance to that shit
when the dj throws it on, but in the back of my head i'm thinking,
"you know, that's a pretty good primo impersonation."
its hard for me to listen to and enjoy a replica when i could be
enjoying the original (step in the arena or something).
ok, so i'm not saying j5 shouldn't make this last album. i think
they're actually doing young hip hop listeners a service by bringing
this sound to hip hop's landscape in '02. i'm just saying, looking
at hip hop's history, this is a much less significant record than
step in the arena (not really a good record to compare it to)
or, more appropriately, midnight marauders.
> But even if we did agree on your condition of innovation I
> would still argue there has been, and continues to be, plenty of
> innovation in recent hiphop.
yeah, i think there's still limited pockets of innovation. i just think
its slowed dramatically, and the blips on the radar are much smaller
than ever before.
and this is a natural thing. i don't think hip hop can avoid hitting this
creative brick wall....read my comments about the pioneers and
the field of fresh snow in my other post in this thread for more
on this.
> For example, most hiphop from 2000-2003sounds
> nothing like
> hiphop from the mid nineties
i think 97/98 was the last major shift. i think we're still pretty much
in that same era that biggie ushered in with the release of "life after
death". imho.
of course there are 100 splinter movements happening all over the
map from dirty south to white boy square hop...but i don't think
there have been any major innovations in at least 3 or 4 years
(some of el producto's recent work not withstanding).
> Also how
> synths and live instruments are being brought into the mix and people are
> trying new things and straying away from sampling.
maybe this is a personal thing, but i think sampling is what gave hip
hop alot of its original appeal. the infusion of electric drums and
keyboards, as well as live instruments, where just a few notes are
sampled independently...its robbed hip hop production of alot of
"richness". alot of those early 90s records are THICK. the
sound is almost "warm". because the sample isn't just of one
instrument playing a few notes in a booth...its of a group of
motherfuckers BLOWING like their life depended on it. shit
like that.
> Who was rhyming like
> Nelly does 10 years ago?
i dunno, i've never really found nelly to be all that innovative, but
then i don't pay a whole lot of close attention to his rhyme
schemes or anything.
i think most people will agree that flows in general have come
a long way since the mid 80s and even early 90s (i was listening
to edutainment the other day and some of krs' schemes are
almost laughable now -- with all respect due, of course)...but
i don't think that's reflective of any major innovative undercurrent
bubbling in '02.
> Are you sure you really feel the rate of innovation has gone down,
> or is it just that as you get older you find you don't relate to the
> latest innovations?
i've given this careful thought and i think its the former.
a question.
what's the last album you heard that really just KNOCKED YOU
ON YOUR ASS?
where you walked away from it like, holy shit, that was something
special. this is a big deal. this is gonna get some major play for
a while to come.
maybe i'm too picky or overly critical, but the last album that
registered like this for me was A Book of Human Language.
i knew the first time i listened to it that the album was a fucking
masterpiece. and i still feel that way.
and that was 98.
and i've listened to and purchased A BUNCH of lp's and 12's
since '98. not saying there haven't been any good albums
or singles released -- quite the contrary. i just feel quality
is down across the board, folks have half the fire and hunger
they used to, and the really stellar achievements are fewer and
further between.
and granted, i'm kind of screwed in this regard, as i've been buying
new hip hop records since 1982/83. i have a much larger body
of music to compare and contrast each new record to than some
kid who just jumped in the game a couple years ago....but
even still.
i was in my early 20s when the indie wave started to hit
hip hop in 95/96, and even though the 92/93 sound was
still my favorite shit, i immediately recognized that something
major was happening in hip hop at the time. there was
a new movement...and it was significant.
that's the last major wave of innovation i've seen.
> Dude I hope I'm not striking a chord of being offensive here, please dont'
> take this the wrong way, and I'm sorry to hear about your loss, but since
> you make the comparison... I'ma build on it: If you could go and spend a
> night with your mother right now, have a conversation with her, give her a
> hug, etc, she would be alive right?
hmmm. first off, don't sweat it -- i'm a full grown, well adjusted
man and can definitely discuss this one with a level head.
second off.....hypothetically, yes. but she is in fact no longer among
the living...so, realistically, no.
> The fact is, so far as I see it, if I
> so choose I can still go and do these things (metaphorically) with any of
> the above mentioned art forms, including hiphop.
right on, and this again calls back to our highly divergent (and valid)
opinions of what constitutes a living art form, what constitutes a
dying one, and what constitutes a dead one.
> Jazz is not dead, its just not the same as it used to be...
> its not in its golden age anymore... but that doesn't mean its dead.
another difference of opinion here.
cause basically, given current technology, music lends itself well to
recorded mediums. so its relatively easy to capture and keep for
decades and decades. we can go back and listen to what was
made, find old stuff we never knew about, etc.
further, every type of music ever created is still performed today
in at least some limited capacity. classical, big band, jazz,
celtic folk music, etc.
but in my eyes, just like all artistic movements, everything named
above exists on kind of a bell cure trajectory. starts off small, gains
popularity, significant achievements happen, PLATEAU,
homogenization, falling action....."death".
people can still perform that music...and even come up with new
original pieces. but that doesn't mean the shit is alive (to me).
think of another example from the art world. lets pick impressionism.
look up impressionism in any art history book and it'll give you some
concrete dates on the life of that movement. when it started, when
it trailed off, who the significant contributors were, the seminal
works, etc.
i'm sure people still paint impressionistic pictures today. somebody
may even produce a "better" painting than what's widely considered
to be the best impressionistic painting ever (play along). but that
doesn't mean the movement has been reborn....or that this new
work has even 1/100th of the significance the original did.
> I understand where you are coming from, and I feel you, there's plenty of
> truth in what you say........ but I want balance that by saying that the
> last jazz night I was at all the performers were black except for one if
> memory serves, and they were
> all extremely talented and obviously loved what they were doing with every
> ounce of their heart.
yeah, when i speak in absolute terms like i did describing jazz as white
guys with pony tails....i'm not trying to say that that's ALL of it. or
ALL that's left. i'm really just speaking in relative terms -- percentages
and what not, based on my experiences and perceptions. i'm also
a big believer in the exception that makes the rule. ;->
> 2. I think there are still plenty of jazz musicians who bring their
> own epxeriences, soul and character to the music, even if they're
> playing the same 'ol classic songs,
the key question for me is: whose standards are the jazz musicians
still blowing in 2050 going to be playing? folks making original
music right now....or miles/monk/parker/gillespie/duke/etc.?
> What rappers have done with their money has no bearing on the "life"
> status of hiphop.
agreed. i was trying to break out those other three sub-issues
i identified from the alive vs. dead conversation.
> Some cats these days act like Rakim wasn't wearing jewelry,
> doing videos in mansions he didn't own and driving cars he
> couldn't afford. :-) They need to pull out their old Rapcity video
> tapes and check their facts :).
troooooooooo...
> Secondly, had heads even seen anything like Cannibal Ox
> before they dropped? No. Were heads ready for Electric Circus?
> No. Were heads ready for Black Eyed Peas? No. Is Mr Lif just
> spouting the same styles we heard in 1995, no. is Blackalicious
> sounding anything like anything from the 90's? No. Is Jean
> Grae coming with some typical same old thing rap music? No.
>
> The list goes on and on and on and on....
i'd disagree with including BEP, and i haven't heard electric
circus yet (though the comments i've been seeing on here are
definitely encouraging), but again, i'm talking aggregates and
overall percentages here. the 30,000 foot view. you can
find lots of anecdotal evidence, and i'll grant you that there
are still innovative pockets within hip hop (i've contended
that all along)...but i think i've properly explained my views
on this subject by now....so i'll stop 'splaining.
> As I see it, peeps are just blinded by the power of the commercial rap
> industry right now. There are a lot more MC Hammers and Vanilla Ice's
> out there.... a lot more commercial hiphop acts... a lot more commercial
> hiphop media... so it makes things look more depressing than they actually
> are.
i think the most detrimental impact mainstream exposure has had
on hip hop as a whole has been a realignment of the reasons
why cat's get in the game.
of course folks have always rapped about having money, and getting
money, as long as the artform has existed; that's a function of
history and demographics. but when pioneers started cutting
records in the early 80s, there really wasn't any potential for
them to blow up and get super big time -- major label backing,
heavy daytime radio rotation, mtv, award shows, bookoo bucks,
etc. etc. might get some local fame, an ego boost or some
pussy...but nothing like what a record deal promises you today.
and i think that held true all the way on up into the early/mid 90s.
but at some point there was a shift, and hip hop came to represent
a vehicle to really get paid. so now you open the flood gates for
a gang of folks to jump into hip hop for financial reasons, as opposed
to love and respect for the artform, and a desire to make a contribution.
i'm not going to say everybody in it for the funds is devoid of love
and talent...i just think this shifting of the motivational paradigm has
significantly impacted the quality and "heart" of hip hop, on the
whole.
> > no, i don't think we can or should. i think the world people needs
> > people to always be fighting the good cause. and the thing is, they
> > can't realize that they aren't going to win....cause if they did, the
> > whole thing would go to shit.
>
> But you think they're not going to win, you'd just prefer if they didn't
> realise it?
pretty much. all goes back to my undying belief and faith in group
dynamics theory.
15-20% of the people are ALWAYS going to control 80-85% of
the wealth.
elected officials are ALWAYS going to be corrupt (power corrupts
all). you can have a revolution, and overthrow 'em, and the incoming
regime will be just as corrupt within a matter of 5 years.
a small percentage of people are always going to fill leadership roles
and a large majority of folk are always going to be (again, relatively)
"deaf, dumb and blind" sheep (i aint no 5%er, but they do get some
shit right).
> A most enoyable discussion - one of the most enjoyable on this
> newsgroup in a long time.
agreed!
> Thanks for your thoughts dude... hope mine make some sense..
totally, and likewise. got me ol' tinker clicking for a minute...
peacers,
-applesauce
Tre' Boogie
The cat who wrote this article did not a) do his homework b) ever really
listen to hiphop c) is a fucking poser looking for attention by acting
holier than thou d) all of the above.
> > The art we once called hip hop has been dead for some
> > time now.
They've been saying thht shit since hip-hop started. If it was really dead,
none of us would be here. If it was dead, there would be no new "hot joints"
or "comeback albums"
> > But because its rotting carcass has been draped in platinum and
> > propped against a Gucci print car,
Platinum replaced gold yes but ummmm...how long has this ct been in hip-hop?
Does he remember the 80's? Dapper Dan? MCM? The cover of Paid in Full? Slick
Rick and his Bally shoes that cost more than some audience members whole
outfit?
> jay to the izzo, h to the...
>
> j-hova.
>
> and frankly, this guy is damn near the perfect emcee in 2002. the
> prototype. i haven't heard blueprint 2 yet, but after listening to
> blueprint 1 again this morning, i think he leaves very little room for
> improvement on an analytical level (as an idea for an emcee -- his subject
> matter, execution, personality, mannerisms, etc....he's perfect).
I agree to a certain extent here with Sauce, but he still got bured by Nas'
Ether.
> > I
> > think the time has come to bid a farewell to the last black arts
> > movement.
>
> the last one? and he's basing this on....?
exactly. umm...this guy does not know what he's talkin' about.
> > It's had a good run but it no longer serves the community that
> > spawned it.
>
>
> very wrong. it perfectly (don't trip -- lets not just be pc, but be
honest)
> reflects the community that spawned it, presently creates it and presently
> embraces it.
Damn...and I thought this would be the comeback post of the year but Sauce
here has the same sentiments as me. Punk! So I'll sum up with...
....YEAH! What Sauce said!
Tre' Boogie
--
__________________
Like the mighty phoenix,
Once again I rise from the flames set to destroy me & take flight.
Nesta
distractions as i write it...
>From: "applesauce" applesauceTAST...@greasykidincorporated.com
>Date: Fri, Dec 13, 2002 5:48 PM
>> Innovations is nice to have in an art, but to me its not a crucial
>> component.
>> To me, hiphop is not about innovation, and I would most
>> certainly not judge its "life or death" status based on the rate of
>> innovation. Hip hop to me is about self expression
>> with a dope beat, a dope rhyme, and having fun.
>> Innovation is a Western ideal and obsession that most other cultures and
>> societies throughout history have had a healthy fear of. They relied
>on
>> tradition.... repeating the same formulas for hundreds if not thousands
>of
>> years.. and those formulas meant a great deal to the people who maintained
>> them.
>my initial reaction is that
>hip hop is a western (and specifically, american) invention and we
>almost have to examine it in a western context. i was born and
>raised in a capitalistic society and i guess that aesthetic tends to
>bleed into just about everything....even the way i evaluate art.
i'm having mixed thoughts on this argument. you both make good points.
quiz, with cultures that had formulas - let's say musical formulas, folk
musics, that repeated themselves for hundreds of years - my question is: was
that music art?
technically i suppose, of course it was art. but was it art like we like to
think of art, like we like to think hip-hop can be at its best? i fear i won't
break this down well, but i'ma try...
i get the impression the music of a lot of cultures, be they african tribes,
eastern european enclaves, etc, was not created with the same frame of mind as
we have. there was no sense of creating "classics," or innovating, or creating
shit that will be remembered for years, etc. the music is more _of_ the
culture. not something for the culture to analyze or study (and i'm not trying
to drive this into the argument of whether hip-hop should be studied, and
whether that emasculates it, or renders it less soulful, or whatever. hip-hop
_is_ studied, point blank).
ok, my webster's says - art: "the conscious use of skill and creative
imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also, art so
produced."
hip-hop as an artform, in general, may not try to create shit for posterity and
for study as much as, say, poetry. and it is a music of a culture. but i
don't think it is as embedded in a people's culture as some "folk musics." it
doesn't draw its entire meaning from the people that create it and listen to
it. it has more of an independent life. there is a conscious effort to create
hip-hop songs, with a target audience in mind.
i may be way offbase, but i get the feeling these traditional folk music forms
were not created with such a conscious artistic sense of will this hit? will
this last? will this be respected? it was literally the soundtrack to their
lives. there wasn't competition from rival musicians, it was all
complementary. the music didn't necessarily need to live on its own - it
complemented eating, or meeting, or storytelling, or whatever. it was
intertwined with the culture, not independent, and not meant to be.
thus, can it be held to the same standards as we hold our music? obviously,
the best music is truly part of your life, but generally it isn't born as part
of your life, it becomes part of it by circumstance.
so it is more important for our music to innovate. it serves a different
purpose.
now that said (finally), is it that important for hip-hop to keep innovating?
is it dead or dying it if it isn't?
>> I could care
>> less if people are "innovating the art form" with every record they put
>> out.
>to me, innovation is necessary to keep my interest.
sauce argued ( i guess it was in his other post) that hip-hop, or any artform,
is dead or dying if it isn't innovating. but what does that really mean?
i kind of agree w/ quiz...a hot record is always gonna get me open. i'd like
to see shit move forward, but what if it doesn't? what if what's going on now
just keeps happening in a dope manner? would that be so bad? or would it, by
its very nature, become boring? i.e.:
>the new jurrasic 5 record.
>i'll be the first to admit, from limited listens mind you, that it's a well
>put together record.
> but its also kind of boring for me to listen to because
>everything on there has been done before.
i guess i don't know, i can't tell the future, how i would feel about hip-hop
if it kept doin the same shit over and over, albeit really well.
but what is a "dying" artform?
we're all dying. some of us live for 100 years, but we're irrefutably coming
closer to death with every second. being in the process of dying does not mean
you cannot be fully living, does it?
>every type of music ever created is still performed today
>
>but in my eyes, all artistic movements exist on kind of a bell cure
>trajectory. starts off small, gains
>popularity, significant achievements happen, PLATEAU,
>homogenization, falling action....."death".
>
>people can still perform that music...and even come up with new
>original pieces. but that doesn't mean the shit is alive (to me).
>
>think of impressionism.
>look up impressionism in any art history book and it'll give you some
>concrete dates on the life of that movement. when it started, when
>it trailed off, who the significant contributors were, the seminal
>works, etc.
>
>i'm sure people still paint impressionistic pictures today. somebody
>may even produce a "better" painting than what's widely considered
>to be the best impressionistic painting ever (play along). but that
>doesn't mean the movement has been reborn....or that this new
>work has even 1/100th of the significance the original did.
well we can put dates on drum machine driven hip-hop. people still use drum
machines, but basically started around 1983, went through 1986, and then there
was a major shift, and any other drum machine works don't mean the same thing.
but people still paint, probably doing new fabulous things
but maybe i'm cheating. maybe it's not hip-hop equals paintingn and drum
machines equal impressionism. maybe music=painting, and hip-hop=impressionism.
>what's the last album you heard that really just KNOCKED YOU
>ON YOUR ASS?
>
>where you walked away from it like, holy shit, that was something
>special. this is a big deal. this is gonna get some major play for
>a while to come.
well is that a change in hip-hop? or in you? in us?
i think quiz asked that already, somewhere, and you said it was hip-hop. it
must have been in your other post.
what's the the last album you heard in any form of music that knocked you on
your ass? have there been any, many, since 1998?
i don't know if something could affect me like that anymore. i would love it
to, but i have the feeling i wouldn't let it. i won't argue that hip-hop is
necessarily creating as many classics as it once did, but i am aware of changes
in me that would prevent me from really being blown away by a piece of music
like i used to. and i feel like you have some of those same changes, from shit
we've discussed in the past. a more critical eye, for instance.
ok, i been writing this off and on for too fuckin long, time to press send
Nesta
>Date: Sat, Dec 14, 2002 12:02 AM
tre boogs!!! hot damn! the return!! you fuckin E to the 3, urbanearthing,
wannabe nycer!!!! YAY
>> j-hova.
>>
>> and frankly, this guy is damn near the perfect emcee in 2002.
>I agree to a certain extent here with Sauce, but he still got bured by Nas'
>Ether.
uh...say what? the first 2 verse of "ether" were weak. the 3rd was nice, but
"takeover" was all dope (albeit not all directed at nas). "stillmatic" (the
original) was kinda nice, but brief.
i've seen this sentiment before...do a lot of people think "ether" took out
jay-z? if so i'ma have to break those lyrics down on here and find the truth.
T. Tauri
> IF RAKIM IS YOUR GOD,
> AND "PAID IN FULL" IS YOUR BIBLE...
> WHO IS YOUR JESUS??
>
> BOOTS?!?!??
>
> NO!!!!
>
> jay to the izzo, h to the...
>
> j-hova.
>
> and frankly, this guy is damn near the perfect emcee in 2002.
> the prototype. i haven't heard blueprint 2 yet, but after
> listening to blueprint 1 again this morning, i think he leaves
> very little room for improvement on an analytical level (as an
> idea for an emcee -- his subject matter, execution, personality,
> mannerisms, etc....he's perfect).
That's pretty much his problem to me. Atomized and dissected, Jay-Z
covers the bases, but where's the personality? He exudes boringness to
me. No spontaneity. It's like, graph his hip-hop biorhythm and it'd be a
straight line. I thirst for more wild dips and peaks.
Anyway, whenever I read Murder Dog, though, it seems to me hip-hop is
doing fine, just not so much in the places that formerly championed it,
or with quite the same heritage as the tracks that I was following.
The only thing that hurts, for me, is they got no room for breakbeats.
Peece,
T. Tauri
Tre' Boogie
"Nesta" <nesta...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021214005312...@mb-mv.aol.com...
> >From: "Tre' Boogie" funkye...@sbcglobal.net
> >Date: Sat, Dec 14, 2002 12:02 AM
>
> tre boogs!!! hot damn! the return!! you fuckin E to the 3,
urbanearthing,
> wannabe nycer!!!! YAY
>
> >> j-hova.
> >>
> >> and frankly, this guy is damn near the perfect emcee in 2002.
>
> >I agree to a certain extent here with Sauce, but he still got bured by
Nas'
> >Ether.
>
> uh...say what? the first 2 verse of "ether" were weak. the 3rd was nice,
but
> "takeover" was all dope (albeit not all directed at nas). "stillmatic"
(the
> original) was kinda nice, but brief.
>
> i've seen this sentiment before...do a lot of people think "ether" took
out
> jay-z? if so i'ma have to break those lyrics down on here and find the
truth.
See, a couple of years ago, i would have spent an hour debating this with
you, but I'm old, lazy and tired. So I'm gonna go ahead let you try to
disprove me. Go ahead......post on Nesta!
I will say that if you take verse by verse, it really could swing either
way, but looking over all at both songs, Ether is stronger. It's kind of
like a slow death....like Ether. Take that! More later. I must do some last
minute X-mas shopping.
Tre' Boogs
Nesta
>Date: Sat, Dec 14, 2002 8:37 PM
>>>he still got bured by
>Nas'
>> >Ether.
>>
>> uh...say what? ...do a lot of people think "ether" took
>out
>> jay-z?
>I will say that if you take verse by verse, it really could swing either
>way, but looking over all at both songs, Ether is stronger. It's kind of
>like a slow death....like Ether. Take that! More later. I must do some last
>minute X-mas shopping.
does christmas come earlier on the west coast?
anyhoo...i listened to both them joints today. it's closer than i remembered,
but i would still vote for "takeover."
anyways, let's take a closer look...
JAY-Z "TAKEOVER"
R.O.C., we runnin this rap shit
Memphis Bleek, we runnin this rap shit
B. Mac, we runnin this rap shit
Freeway, we run this rap shit
O & Sparks, we runnin this rap shit
Chris & Neef, we runnin this rap shit
The takeover, the break's over nigga
God MC, me, Jay-Hova
Hey lil' soldier you ain't ready for war
R.O.C. too strong for y'all
It's like bringin a knife to a gunfight, pen to a test
Your chest in the line of fire witcha thin-ass vest
You bringin them Boyz II Men, HOW them boys gon' win?
This is grown man B.I., get you rolled into triage
Beatch - your reach ain't long enough, dunny
Your peeps ain't strong enough, fucka
Roc-A-Fella is the army, better yet the navy
Niggaz'll kidnap your babies, spit at your lady
We bring - knife to fistfight, kill your drama
Uh, we kill you motherfuckin ants with a sledgehammer
Don't let me do it to you dunny cause I overdo it
So you won't confuse it with just rap music
Ok, a decent intro, but certainly nothing spectacular. No specific targets
are named here, but whoever Jay is aiming at, he's making it clear they're
overmatched: "lil soldier"; "knife to a gunfight"; "boys"; "ants". if that
ain't enough, he also drags their "babies" and "lady" into the line of fire.
Meanwhile, jay's got his whole crew behind him. they got weapons with more
than enough strength for whatever kind of battle they get involved in ("knife
to fistfight"; killing "ants with a sledgehammer"). on its own, it's not a
knockout blow, but it serves to set up the follow up attack.
R.O.C., we runnin this rap shit
M-Easy, we runnin this rap shit
The Broad Street Bully, we runnin this rap shit
Get zipped up in plastic when it happens that's it
Freeway, we runnin this rap shit
O & Sparks, we runnin this rap shit
Chris & Neef, we runnin this rap shit
{*"Watch out!! We run New York" -> KRS-One*}
I don't care if you Mobb Deep, I hold triggers to crews
ok, right off, jay lets you know who's he aiming at
You little FUCK, I've got money stacks bigger than you
nice. jay is physically bigger than the competition, nothing wrong with
letting them know it.
When I was pushin weight, back in eighty-eight
you was a ballerina I got your pictures I seen ya
ooooh...that's raw. knowing that jay apparently did actually dig up ballet
pictures of prodigy lends this line extra strength. that's a vicious blow.
Then you dropped "Shook Ones," switch your demeanor
Well - we don't believe you, you need more people
Roc-A-Fella, students of the game, we passed the classes
Nobody can read you dudes like we do
two lines of transition, but then a couple clever lines
Don't let 'em gas you like Jigga is ass and won't clap you
Trust me on this one - I'll detach you
Mind from spirit, body from soul
They'll have to hold a mass, put your body in a hole
decent...i'm not too fond of his repeating "body," but it works alright
No, you're not on my level get your brakes tweaked
I sold what ya whole album sold in my first week
ehhh...comparing sales doesn't get a lot of points in my book
You guys don't want it with Hov'
Ask Nas, he don't want it with Hov', nooooo!
ok, good transition, setting it up for the next verse, and the next target
R.O.C., we runnin this rap shit
B. Sigel, we runnin this rap shit
M-Easy, we runnin this rap shit
Get zipped up in plastic when it happens that's it
O & Sparks, we runnin this rap shit
Freeway, we run this rap shit
Chris & Neef, we runnin this rap shit
{*"Watch out!! We run New York" -> KRS-One*}
I know you missin all the - FAAAAAAAME!
introduces the david bowie motif that runs through this verse. not really
sure what gave him the idea to do this, but it works pretty well. he doesn't
overdo it, but throws it in effectively throughout
But along with celebrity comes bout seventy shots to your frame
not all that clever, but i like it
Nigga; you a - LAAAAAAAME!
Youse the fag model for Karl Kani/Esco ads
Went from, Nasty Nas to Esco's trash
Had a spark when you started but now you're just garbage
Fell from top ten to not mentioned at all
nice pattern set up in these last 3 lines. describing nas' fall from the top.
a bit of hyperbole, but all based on reality, which makes them more effective.
to your bodyguard's "Oochie Wally" verse better than yours
ouch! continuing from the previous line, and taking it one more step.
Matter fact you had the worst flow on the whole fuckin song
not a clean blow, but after the previous lines, it's painful
but I know - the sun don't shine, then son don't shine
That's why your - LAAAAAAAME! - career come to a end
There's only so long fake thugs can pretend
Nigga; you ain't live it you witnessed it from your folks pad
You scribbled in your notepad and created your life
now that shit is ill. not sure if it's what jay intended, but to me those
last 2 lines vaguely reference nas' "project window." i imagine him looking
out at everything going on, but not taking part in it himself. i remember
asking my ol girl what she thought of those last 2 lines. she thought it made
nas sound like a scrub.
I showed you your first tec on tour with Large Professor
(Me, that's who!) Then I heard your album bout your tec on the dresser
nice. working off those previous lines, and now injecting personal history to
show nas as a fronter.
So yeah I sampled your voice, you was usin it wrong
You made it a hot line, I made it a hot song
jay keeps landing bombs here. taking a previous nas reference, and flipping
it back on him.
And you ain't get a coin nigga you was gettin fucked and
I know who I paid God, Serchlite Publishing
ehhh...everyone gets dicked by labels...
Use your - BRAAAAAAAIN! You said you been in this ten
I've been in it five - smarten up Nas
not only is jay's math a little shaky here, but what's the point? he loses
some momentum here.
Four albums in ten years nigga? I can divide
That's one every let's say two, two of them shits was doo
One was - NAHHH, the other was "Illmatic"
That's a one hot album every ten year average
And that's so - LAAAAAAAME!
ok. it took a few lines to set up, but again, jay takes accepted history,
adds just a touch of hyperbole, and smacks nas in the face with it. i remember
someone thinkin it was weak that jay gave nas any props here at all. i
disagree, i think it make jay's disses more effective. he admits nas has
accomplishments under his belt, which makes you believe it's the truth when jay
points out all the flaws.
Nigga switch up your flow
interesting. not a common knock on nas, but jay, who can switch up patterns
like few mcs, can definitely throw this blow.
Your shit is garbage, but you try and kick knowledge?
(Get the fuck outta here) You niggaz gon' learn to respect the king
making his grab for that imaginary crown which nas, jay, and big have all
claimed
Don't be the next contestant on that Summer Jam screen
i like this. he doesn't spell it all out for you. the true fans know the
reference, and after jay exposed prodigy, no one wants to be up there.
Because you know who (who) did you know what (what)
with you know who (yeah) but just keep that between me and you for now
when this dropped, it seemed like just a sneaky little closer to the verse.
not really meaning anything, just trying to make it sound like jay had
something else up his sleeve. these lines gained a little strength after the
release of "super ugly."
R.O.C., we runnin this rap shit
M-Easy, we runnin this rap shit
The Broad Street Bully, we runnin this rap shit
Get zipped up in plastic when it happens that's it
Freeway, we run this rap shit
O & Sparks, we runnin this rap shit
Chris & Neef, we runnin this rap shit
{*"Watch out!! We run New York" -> KRS-One*}
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
So stop with that childish shit, nigga I'm grown
Please leave it alone - don't throw rocks at the throne
again establishing that claim as the king of new york. he also starts this
last verse by trying to make it clear he's had his say, and he's withdrawing
from this silly little battle. of course, he hasn't left it alone, as we know.
Do not bark up that tree, that tree will fall on you
I don't know why your advisors ain't forewarn you
Please, not Jay, he's, not for play
I don't slack a minute, all that thug rappin and gimmicks
I will end it, all that yappin be finished
You are not deep, you made your bed now sleep
Don't make me expose you to them folks that don't know you
is this aimed at nas? at nas and mobb deep? at unknown others? at the
ubiquitous sucker mc? with a clear target in verses 2 and 3, jay looked sharp,
but his lines lose some sting here.
Nigga I know you well, all the stolen jew-els
Twinkletoes you breakin my heart
ooh...a prodigy reference?
You can't fuck with me - go play somewhere, I'm busy
ow. so dismissive!
And all you other cats throwin shots at Jigga
You only get half a bar - fuck y'all niggaz
a strong closer.
NAS "ETHER"
(I) Fuck with your soul like ether
(Will) Teach you the king you know you
(Not) "God's son" across the belly
(Lose) I prove you lost already
Brace yourself for the main event
Y'all impatiently waitin
It's like an AIDS test, what's the results?
Not positive,
i don't like this. is the main event nas vs. jay? i don't like how he
describes this so passively. tell us you're gonna _show_ us the results! and
what is "not positive" supposed to mean in reference to this battle?
who's the best? Pac, Nas and Big
ugh...any slobbing on the knobs of pac and big as the deceased geniuses of
hip-hop loses points from me.
Ain't no best, East, West, North, South, flossed out, greedy
I embrace y'all with napalm
Blows up, no guts, left chest, face gone
nice imagery
How could Nas be garbage?
i always like a reference to the other artist's song, but he doesn't take it
anywhere
Semi-autos at your cartilege
Burner at the side of your dome, come outta my throne
oh it's his throne now, huh? well well, jay won't like that...
I got this, locked since '9-1
I am the truest, name a rapper that I ain't influenced
now he states his case. the influence of _illmatic_ does continue to live on,
jay can't deny this.
Gave y'all chapters but now I keep my eyes on the Judas
With Hawaiin Sophie fame, kept my name in his music
Check it
A possible setup for later here? did jay betray nas? he's not doing anything
with "hawaiian sophie" yet, but let's see what happens...
[Chorus]
[talking]
Ay yo, pass me the weed, pour my ashes out on these niggas man (no doubt)
Ay, y'all faggots, y'all kneel and kiss the fuckin ring
[Chorus]
I've been fucked over, left for dead, dissed and fogotten
Luck ran out, they hoped that I'd be gone, stiff and rotten
overstating the case somewhat, but let's see how nas will respond to these
insults
Y'all just piss on me, shit on me, spit on my grave (uh)
Talk about me, laugh behind my back but in my face
Y'all some well wishin (bitches), friendly actin envy hidin snakes
With your hands out for my money, man, how much can I take?
ok....who is nas talking about here? and if nas has been forgotten, what is
he gonna do about it? a little too much complaining here, he needs to attack.
When these streets keep callin, heard it when I was sleep
That this Gay-Z and Cockafella Records wanted beef
"streets keep calling" - a possible reference to "streets is watching"? but
he doesn't do anything with it. and the "gay-z and cockafella" is lowest
common denominator.
Started cockin up my weapon, slowly loadin up this ammo
To explode it on a camel, and his soldiers, I can handle
i've always felt like i'm missing something here...what's the camel reference
supposed to mean?
This for dolo and his manuscript just sound stupid
When KRS already made an album called "Blueprint"
ok there's a point for nas. krs' album wasn't just called _blueprint_, but
it's a decent point anyway
First, Biggie's ya man, then you got the nerve to say that you better than Big
Dick suckin lips, whyn't you let the late, great veteran live
ehhh...a missed opening here. jay has taken some of big's lyrics before, why
not attack him on that? did jay say he was better than big? i don't remember
when, but if he did, who cares? he is. nas is too, but he needs to let the
late great veteran alone as well. this constant placing of big (and pac) on an
untouchable pedestal really bothers me.
[talking]
(I...will...not...lose)
"God's son" across the belly, I prove you lost already
The king is back, where my crown at?
(Ill...will) Ill Will rest in peace, let's do it niggas
[Chorus]
Y'all niggas deal with emotions like bitches
What's sad is I love you 'cause you're my brother
You traded your soul for riches
My child, I've watched you grow up to be famous
And now I smile like a proud dad, watchin his only son that made it
this is pretty good...an early reference, made more explicit in a few lines,
that nas fathered jay-z's style. however, it loses some effectiveness because
i don't really think it's all that valid.
You seem to be only concerned with dissin women
Were you abused as a child, scared to smile, they called you ugly?
oh no!
Well life is harsh, hug me, don't reject me
or make records to disrespect me, blatant or indirectly
giving his son a little tongue lashing here, telling jay to behave himself.
In '88 you was gettin chased through your buildin
Callin my crib and I ain't even give you my numbers
nice. would be better if it was based in reality, which i don't think it is.
All I did was gave you a style for you to run with
Smilin in my face, glad to break bread with the god
nas' version of the past personal interactions between the two just don't cut
like jay's. nevertheless, if you read into it, you see a jay who used to hold
respect for nas.
Wearin Jaz chains, no tecs, no cash, no cars
No jail bars Jigga, no pies, no case
Just Hawaiian shirts, hangin with little Chase
there we go, nas finally gets rolling. jay wasn't always what he appears to
be either. he claims he's only "been around 5," but nas takes you back another
5 to an earlier era
You a fan, a phony, a fake, a pussy, a Stan
whap!whap!whap!
I still whip your ass, you thirty-six in a karate class
You Tae-bo hoe, tryna' work it out, you tryna' get brolic?
Ask me if I'm tryna' kick knowledge
Nah, I'm tryna' kick the shit you need to learn though
a nice boomerang shot back on jay
That ether, that shit that make your soul burn slow
Is he Dame Diddy, Dame Daddy or Dame Dummy?
Oh, I get it, you Biggie and he's Puffy
uhh...? i don't really get nas' dis here. dame dash doesn't really parallel
puffy at all. unless someone can break this down for me, this is weak.
Rockefeller died of AIDS, that was the end of his chapter
And that's the guy y'all chose to name your company after?
i don't like this either. did nelson, or another, rockefeller die of aids? i
don't know, but the company is obviously named after john rockefeller.
flipping it onto a more recent descendant is kinda shaky. the aids dis,
probably a subtle anti-gay knock, holds little water in my book.
Put it together, I rock hoes, y'all rock fellas
nice little play on the company name here...
And now y'all try to take my spot, fellas?
Philly's hot rock fellas, put you in a dry spot, fellas
In a pine box with nine shots from my glock, fellas
...but he takes it too far. nice rhyme scheme though
Foxy got you hot 'cause you kept your face in her puss
What you think, you gettin girls now 'cause of your looks?
body blow! oof!
Ne-gro please
You no mustache havin, with whiskers like a rat
um...
Compared to Beans you wack
flat out wrong, no one buys this
And your man stabbed Un and made you take the blame
is this true? if so, this has potential, but i want more detail
You ass, went from Jaz to hangin with Kane, to Irv, to Big
And, Eminem murdered you on your own shit
first line is a pointless transition. second line...not bad. i don't think
anyone really believes that, which hurts, but it could be argued
You a dick-ridin faggot, you love the attention
Queens niggas run you niggas, ask Russell Simmons
solid, turning his own allies against him
Ha, R-O-C get gunned up and clapped quick
J.J. Evans get gunned up and clapped quick
Your whole damn record label gunned up and clapped quick
and now turning his own chorus on him. nas making a late flurry!
Shawn Carter to Jay-Z, damn you on Jaz dick
nice
So little shorty's gettin gunned up and clapped quick
How much of Biggie's rhymes is gon' come out your fat lips?
finally he brings it up. too late? good point for nas though
Wanted to be on every last one of my classics
You pop shit, apologize, nigga, just ask Kiss
blaow! the story has gone around that jay wanted to be in the firm. probably
better for his career that he wasn't, but nevertheless, a heavy shot from nas
at the bell.
so, what's the verdict? i think jay's song is much more consistent. he only
has one verse specifically directed at nas, but that verse is a killer. i also
think the "takeover" beat is stronger than "ether"'s, and yes, that does
matter.
Pizon
>Big
>Dick suckin lips, whyn't you let the late, great veteran live
>
> ehhh...a missed opening here.
Maybe so, but the "dick suckin lips" is on point.
>did jay say he was better than big? i don't remember
>when
"And if I'm not better than Big, I'm the closest one."
>but if he did, who cares? he is.
True.
>You seem to be only concerned with dissin women
>Were you abused as a child, scared to smile, they called you ugly?
>
> oh no!
This is another Blueprint reference, from the "Song Cry" track where Jay says
"used to tell they friends I was ugly and wouldn't touch me," etc. Another
vicious blow.
>Rockefeller died of AIDS, that was the end of his chapter
>And that's the guy y'all chose to name your company after?
>
> i don't like this either. did nelson, or another, rockefeller die of
aids?
As it was explained to me, the Rockefellar that died of AIDS was some MC. It
still doesn't make much sense to me though, cause we all know Jay didn't name
his company after some no-name MC.
>You ass, went from Jaz to hangin with Kane, to Irv, to Big
>And, Eminem murdered you on your own shit
>
> first line is a pointless transition. second line...not bad. i don't
think
>anyone really believes that,
Huh??? I thought it was unanimous. Em's shit EMBARRASSES Jay's on "Renegade."
>Wanted to be on every last one of my classics
>You pop shit, apologize, nigga, just ask Kiss
What exactly is he referring to with that last line? Jadakiss? Why?
Get at me,
Pizon
http://www.lascalaentertainment.com
--
My mentality is "what, kid?"
Tre' Boogie
"Nesta" <nesta...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021215012726...@mb-fc.aol.com...
> >From: "Tre' Boogie" funkye...@sbcglobal.net
> >Date: Sat, Dec 14, 2002 8:37 PM
> >I will say that if you take verse by verse, it really could swing either
> >way, but looking over all at both songs, Ether is stronger. It's kind of
> >like a slow death....like Ether. Take that! More later. I must do some
last
> >minute X-mas shopping.
>
> does christmas come earlier on the west coast?
no, it actually comes later, by about 3 hours but for those of us who have
to fly someplace else for the holidays, I have to finish picking stuff up
for my peeps in LA before I leave...thus last minute.
> anyhoo...i listened to both them joints today. it's closer than i
remembered,
> but i would still vote for "takeover."
You're just saying that because you don't want to change your mind and admit
I was right.
> The takeover, the break's over nigga
> God MC, me, Jay-Hova
Blasphemy.
> Hey lil' soldier you ain't ready for war
> R.O.C. too strong for y'all
> It's like bringin a knife to a gunfight, pen to a test
> Your chest in the line of fire witcha thin-ass vest
> You bringin them Boyz II Men, HOW them boys gon' win?
> This is grown man B.I., get you rolled into triage
> Beatch - your reach ain't long enough, dunny
> Your peeps ain't strong enough, fucka
> Roc-A-Fella is the army, better yet the navy
Army? Navy? what was the point? oh...there wasn't one.
> Niggaz'll kidnap your babies, spit at your lady
> We bring - knife to fistfight, kill your drama
> Uh, we kill you motherfuckin ants with a sledgehammer
> Don't let me do it to you dunny cause I overdo it
> So you won't confuse it with just rap music
>
> Ok, a decent intro, but certainly nothing spectacular. No specific
targets
> are named here, but whoever Jay is aiming at, he's making it clear they're
> overmatched: "lil soldier"; "knife to a gunfight"
and later he makes says "knife to a fistfight" which says they have to cheat
to win...
> "boys"; "ants". if that
> ain't enough, he also drags their "babies" and "lady" into the line of
fire.
again..no honor. I've noticed that Jay has this tendancy to drag inocents
into the drama whereas Nas will direct his song as whole to Jay. To me, that
says Jay Z couldn't make a strong enough song only about Nas. He had to
include Mob Deep and babies and his girl. He didn't have enough to say about
Nas. So again, since only half of this song is about Nas directly, how can
you say Jay Z burned Nas with this track.
> Meanwhile, jay's got his whole crew behind him. they got weapons with
more
> than enough strength for whatever kind of battle they get involved in
("knife
> to fistfight"; killing "ants with a sledgehammer"). on its own, it's not
a
> knockout blow, but it serves to set up the follow up attack.
>
> I don't care if you Mobb Deep, I hold triggers to crews
>
> ok, right off, jay lets you know who's he aiming at
>
> You little FUCK, I've got money stacks bigger than you
>
> nice. jay is physically bigger than the competition, nothing wrong with
> letting them know it.
and doesn't every battle rhyme do this? nothing stunning about it.
> When I was pushin weight, back in eighty-eight
> you was a ballerina I got your pictures I seen ya
>
> ooooh...that's raw. knowing that jay apparently did actually dig up
ballet
> pictures of prodigy lends this line extra strength. that's a vicious
blow.
true, but again, this isn't abotu Nas so what ever.
>
> You guys don't want it with Hov'
> Ask Nas, he don't want it with Hov', nooooo!
>
> ok, good transition, setting it up for the next verse, and the next target
>
>
> I know you missin all the - FAAAAAAAME!
>
> introduces the david bowie motif that runs through this verse. not really
> sure what gave him the idea to do this, but it works pretty well. he
doesn't
> overdo it, but throws it in effectively throughout
I'll give you that.
> Nigga; you a - LAAAAAAAME!
> Youse the fag model for Karl Kani/Esco ads
> Went from, Nasty Nas to Esco's trash
> Had a spark when you started but now you're just garbage
> Fell from top ten to not mentioned at all
>
> nice pattern set up in these last 3 lines. describing nas' fall from the
top.
>a bit of hyperbole, but all based on reality, which makes them more
effective.
yes, but Nas does admit in Ether about his situation, so I'll wait to get
into later. Basically, he's like so what. shit happens. What?!
> to your bodyguard's "Oochie Wally" verse better than yours
>
> ouch! continuing from the previous line, and taking it one more step.
>
> Matter fact you had the worst flow on the whole fuckin song
>
> not a clean blow, but after the previous lines, it's painful
>
> but I know - the sun don't shine, then son don't shine
> That's why your - LAAAAAAAME! - career come to a end
> There's only so long fake thugs can pretend
> Nigga; you ain't live it you witnessed it from your folks pad
> You scribbled in your notepad and created your life
>
> now that shit is ill. not sure if it's what jay intended, but to me those
> last 2 lines vaguely reference nas' "project window." i imagine him
looking
> out at everything going on, but not taking part in it himself. i remember
> asking my ol girl what she thought of those last 2 lines. she thought it
made
> nas sound like a scrub.
And I suppose Jay has killed approximately how many people according to his
songs? And again, we all know many of the things saidmany people verses are
exagerated. And I'll tell you watching bad things from a "project window"
isn't easy either.
> I showed you your first tec on tour with Large Professor
> (Me, that's who!) Then I heard your album bout your tec on the dresser
>
> nice. working off those previous lines, and now injecting personal
history to
> show nas as a fronter.
finally! he's taking way too long to get to this. we're half done with the
song already.
> So yeah I sampled your voice, you was usin it wrong
> You made it a hot line, I made it a hot song
>
> jay keeps landing bombs here. taking a previous nas reference, and
flipping
> it back on him.
true. true.
> Use your - BRAAAAAAAIN! You said you been in this ten
> I've been in it five - smarten up Nas
>
> not only is jay's math a little shaky here, but what's the point? he
loses
> some momentum here.
well, he didn't have much to loose.
> Four albums in ten years nigga? I can divide
> That's one every let's say two, two of them shits was doo
> One was - NAHHH, the other was "Illmatic"
> That's a one hot album every ten year average
> And that's so - LAAAAAAAME!
>
> ok. it took a few lines to set up, but again, jay takes accepted history,
> adds just a touch of hyperbole, and smacks nas in the face with it. i
remember
> someone thinkin it was weak that jay gave nas any props here at all. i
> disagree, i think it make jay's disses more effective. he admits nas has
> accomplishments under his belt, which makes you believe it's the truth
when jay
> points out all the flaws.
yeah, this one hurts.
> Because you know who (who) did you know what (what)
> with you know who (yeah) but just keep that between me and you for now
>
> when this dropped, it seemed like just a sneaky little closer to the
verse.
> not really meaning anything, just trying to make it sound like jay had
> something else up his sleeve. these lines gained a little strength after
the
> release of "super ugly."
and didn't his mom make him appologize to the girl?
> A wise man told me don't argue with fools
> Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who
> So stop with that childish shit, nigga I'm grown
> Please leave it alone - don't throw rocks at the throne
>
> again establishing that claim as the king of new york. he also starts
this
> last verse by trying to make it clear he's had his say, and he's
withdrawing
> from this silly little battle. of course, he hasn't left it alone, as we
know.
so he contradicts himself..
> Do not bark up that tree, that tree will fall on you
> I don't know why your advisors ain't forewarn you
> Please, not Jay, he's, not for play
> I don't slack a minute, all that thug rappin and gimmicks
> I will end it, all that yappin be finished
> You are not deep, you made your bed now sleep
> Don't make me expose you to them folks that don't know you
>
> is this aimed at nas? at nas and mobb deep? at unknown others? at the
> ubiquitous sucker mc? with a clear target in verses 2 and 3, jay looked
sharp,
> but his lines lose some sting here.
exactly. and again, he didn't have all that much to loose.
> Nigga I know you well, all the stolen jew-els
> Twinkletoes you breakin my heart
>
> ooh...a prodigy reference?
>
> You can't fuck with me - go play somewhere, I'm busy
>
> ow. so dismissive!
>
> And all you other cats throwin shots at Jigga
> You only get half a bar - fuck y'all niggaz
>
> a strong closer.
>
>
>
> NAS "ETHER"
>
> (I) Fuck with your soul like ether
> (Will) Teach you the king you know you
> (Not) "God's son" across the belly
> (Lose) I prove you lost already
See...Nas starts off with a very clever and direct dis towards Jay. In one
verse, not even, the intro, he's already telling him he lost before he even
starts.
> Brace yourself for the main event
> Y'all impatiently waitin
> It's like an AIDS test, what's the results?
> Not positive,
>
> i don't like this. is the main event nas vs. jay? i don't like how he
> describes this so passively.
merely stating that this is what people have been waiting for.
>tell us you're gonna _show_ us the results! and
> what is "not positive" supposed to mean in reference to this battle?
yeah, I never quite got that either.
> who's the best? Pac, Nas and Big
>
> ugh...any slobbing on the knobs of pac and big as the deceased geniuses of
> hip-hop loses points from me.
but he uses this later.
> Ain't no best, East, West, North, South, flossed out, greedy
> I embrace y'all with napalm
> Blows up, no guts, left chest, face gone
>
> nice imagery
>
> How could Nas be garbage?
>
> i always like a reference to the other artist's song, but he doesn't take
it
> anywhere
I don't think he needs to. Anyone who has been listening to this battle
knows what's going on.
> Semi-autos at your cartilege
> Burner at the side of your dome, come outta my throne
>
> oh it's his throne now, huh? well well, jay won't like that...
Well, fromt he title of the joint "Takeover" is implying that he is trying
to take it from someone, isn't he. Yes, I think so.
> I got this, locked since '9-1
> I am the truest, name a rapper that I ain't influenced
Exactly. Illmatic is on the top of just about everyones lists. And if you
compare their first albums, Illmatic was solid through out whereas
Reasonable Doubt has a few tracks I can easily skip over. Illmatic was one
of the saving graces of '94.
> now he states his case. the influence of _illmatic_ does continue to live
on,
> jay can't deny this.
so we agree.
> Gave y'all chapters but now I keep my eyes on the Judas
> With Hawaiin Sophie fame, kept my name in his music
> Check it
>
> A possible setup for later here? did jay betray nas? he's not doing
anything
> with "hawaiian sophie" yet, but let's see what happens...
I think he's just reminding head about that party joint he started off with.
Nas came out hard...Jay, well, not so much. And I think he may be referring
to the whole thing with the girl in the Judas line. But it could be
something we aren't privy to. .
> Ay yo, pass me the weed, pour my ashes out on these niggas man (no doubt)
> Ay, y'all faggots, y'all kneel and kiss the fuckin ring
You ash on people you have no respect for. And now he's claiming "Godfather"
status.
> I've been fucked over, left for dead, dissed and fogotten
> Luck ran out, they hoped that I'd be gone, stiff and rotten
> Y'all just piss on me, shit on me, spit on my grave (uh)
> Talk about me, laugh behind my back but in my face
> Y'all some well wishin (bitches), friendly actin envy hidin snakes
> With your hands out for my money, man, how much can I take?
>
> ok....who is nas talking about here? and if nas has been forgotten, what
is
> he gonna do about it? a little too much complaining here, he needs to
attack.
See here, he does admit that he's been through some shit. Takes a strong man
to do that, but that's not the point. He also gets into the fact that they
aren't man enough to tell him to his face what they think and he's been
patient enough...set up.
> When these streets keep callin, heard it when I was sleep
> That this Gay-Z and Cockafella Records wanted beef
again, the gay references. I was kinda over that...until later when he
really kicks it in.
> "streets keep calling" - a possible reference to "streets is watching"?
but
> he doesn't do anything with it. and the "gay-z and cockafella" is lowest
> common denominator.
>
> Started cockin up my weapon, slowly loadin up this ammo
> To explode it on a camel, and his soldiers, I can handle
>
> i've always felt like i'm missing something here...what's the camel
reference
> supposed to mean?
Camels have big lips. And since Jay wanted to bring his whole crew to the
battle, Nas is simply stating that he can handle them (and Jay) on his own.
No back up needed.
> This for dolo and his manuscript just sound stupid
> When KRS already made an album called "Blueprint"
>
> ok there's a point for nas. krs' album wasn't just called _blueprint_,
but
> it's a decent point anyway
But that's what everyone calls it for short and I'll be honest, that's the
first thing I thoguht of when I heard the title of the album.
> First, Biggie's ya man, then you got the nerve to say that you better than
Big
> Dick suckin lips, whyn't you let the late, great veteran live
>
> ehhh...a missed opening here. jay has taken some of big's lyrics before,
why
> not attack him on that? did jay say he was better than big? i don't
remember
> when, but if he did, who cares? he is.
really?! all your point are now invalid because you said that. And Jay does
claim to be "the greatest" right after a line about Big.
>nas is too, but he needs to let the
> late great veteran alone as well. this constant placing of big (and pac)
on an
> untouchable pedestal really bothers me.
I agree. let it go.
> Y'all niggas deal with emotions like bitches
> What's sad is I love you 'cause you're my brother
> You traded your soul for riches
> My child, I've watched you grow up to be famous
> And now I smile like a proud dad, watchin his only son that made it
>
> this is pretty good...an early reference, made more explicit in a few
lines,
> that nas fathered jay-z's style. however, it loses some effectiveness
because
> i don't really think it's all that valid.
See I think it shows depth because he admits he has love for Jay. And I thik
Nas is going back to "name a rapper that I ain't influence" which would
include Jay Z.
> You seem to be only concerned with dissin women
> Were you abused as a child, scared to smile, they called you ugly?
>
> oh no!
well, he is ugly.
> Well life is harsh, hug me, don't reject me
> or make records to disrespect me, blatant or indirectly
>
> giving his son a little tongue lashing here, telling jay to behave
himself.
belittling your opponent is always effective. I can see his finger waving.
> In '88 you was gettin chased through your buildin
> Callin my crib and I ain't even give you my numbers
>
> nice. would be better if it was based in reality, which i don't think it
is.
how do we know? There wasn't anything to discredit the statement.
> All I did was gave you a style for you to run with
> Smilin in my face, glad to break bread with the god
>
> nas' version of the past personal interactions between the two just don't
cut
> like jay's. nevertheless, if you read into it, you see a jay who used to
hold
> respect for nas.
>
> Wearin Jaz chains, no tecs, no cash, no cars
> No jail bars Jigga, no pies, no case
Now Nas is taking shots for claiming things that ain't true.
> Just Hawaiian shirts, hangin with little Chase
>
> there we go, nas finally gets rolling. jay wasn't always what he appears
to
> be either. he claims he's only "been around 5," but nas takes you back
another
> 5 to an earlier era
>
> You a fan, a phony, a fake, a pussy, a Stan
>
> whap!whap!whap!
>
> I still whip your ass, you thirty-six in a karate class
> You Tae-bo hoe, tryna' work it out, you tryna' get brolic?
> Ask me if I'm tryna' kick knowledge
> Nah, I'm tryna' kick the shit you need to learn though
>
> a nice boomerang shot back on jay
it all speaks for itself. Called him a "Stan" and then later brings Em back.
Wow. Like pouring salt on open wounds.
> That ether, that shit that make your soul burn slow
> Is he Dame Diddy, Dame Daddy or Dame Dummy?
> Oh, I get it, you Biggie and he's Puffy
>
> uhh...? i don't really get nas' dis here. dame dash doesn't really
parallel
> puffy at all. unless someone can break this down for me, this is weak.
Puff was the label head as is Dash and Biggie was his protoge' as is Jay.
Butr I agree, wasn't a great line.
> Rockefeller died of AIDS, that was the end of his chapter
> And that's the guy y'all chose to name your company after?
>
> i don't like this either. did nelson, or another, rockefeller die of
aids? i
> don't know, but the company is obviously named after john rockefeller.
> flipping it onto a more recent descendant is kinda shaky. the aids dis,
> probably a subtle anti-gay knock, holds little water in my book.
Actually, I think it hits. AIDS...connecting this to all the gay refernces
and naming your company after someone who is gay makes the company gay.
DOn't know if Rockerfeller was gay or if he died of AIDS but yuo see what
he's getting at. Set up for.....
> Put it together, I rock hoes, y'all rock fellas
>
> nice little play on the company name here...
>
> And now y'all try to take my spot, fellas?
> Philly's hot rock fellas, put you in a dry spot, fellas
> In a pine box with nine shots from my glock, fellas
>
> ...but he takes it too far. nice rhyme scheme though
>
> Foxy got you hot 'cause you kept your face in her puss
> What you think, you gettin girls now 'cause of your looks?
>
> body blow! oof!
haha!
> Ne-gro please
> You no mustache havin, with whiskers like a rat
>
> um...
calling him a child? no moustache? Or maybe that he isn't a real man because
he can't grow one.
> Compared to Beans you wack
>
> flat out wrong, no one buys this
>
> And your man stabbed Un and made you take the blame
>
> is this true? if so, this has potential, but i want more detail
where were you? do you not remember that whole situation stabbing with Lance
"Un" Rivera, that bootlegger who put out copies of Vol III and Jay caught
heat for it.
> You ass, went from Jaz to hangin with Kane, to Irv, to Big
> And, Eminem murdered you on your own shit
>
> first line is a pointless transition.
pointing out that Jay is a jock rider.
>second line...not bad. i don't think
> anyone really believes that, which hurts, but it could be argued
that's just payback about the "Oochie Wally" dis. BTW...hated that song.
> You a dick-ridin faggot, you love the attention
see, here, it goes back to that "pointless" transition.
> Queens niggas run you niggas, ask Russell Simmons
>
> solid, turning his own allies against him
>
> Ha, R-O-C get gunned up and clapped quick
> J.J. Evans get gunned up and clapped quick
> Your whole damn record label gunned up and clapped quick
>
> and now turning his own chorus on him. nas making a late flurry!
don't think so. he started the song off this way using "I will not lose" and
flipping it against him. See my notes above.
> Shawn Carter to Jay-Z, damn you on Jaz dick
>
> nice
again pointing out that Jay likes to ride on coat tails.
> So little shorty's gettin gunned up and clapped quick
> How much of Biggie's rhymes is gon' come out your fat lips?
>
> finally he brings it up. too late? good point for nas though
no, camel reference. but it was more subliminal.
> Wanted to be on every last one of my classics
> You pop shit, apologize, nigga, just ask Kiss
>
> blaow! the story has gone around that jay wanted to be in the firm.
probably
> better for his career that he wasn't, but nevertheless, a heavy shot from
nas
> at the bell.
yes yes. Phone Tap was hot, but the rest of that album I wasn't really
felling. But more jocking on Jay's part.
> so, what's the verdict? i think jay's song is much more consistent. he
only
> has one verse specifically directed at nas, but that verse is a killer. i
also
> think the "takeover" beat is stronger than "ether"'s, and yes, that does
> matter.
Consistent my ass. We've already established that the first verse of
Takeover isn't even directed towards Nas while Nas starts off with direct
shots and continues all the way through. Takeover was bits and pieces. Hot
joint, but Ether still kills it. And I thought the Ether beat was hotter.
Just straight knocker.
That was fun. Thanks Nesta.
Tre' Boogs.
Josh Scott
"Tre' Boogie" <funkye...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > When these streets keep callin, heard it when I was sleep
> > That this Gay-Z and Cockafella Records wanted beef
>
> again, the gay references. I was kinda over that...until later when he
> really kicks it in.
>
> > "streets keep calling" - a possible reference to "streets is watching"?
> but
> > he doesn't do anything with it. and the "gay-z and cockafella" is
lowest
> > common denominator.
Even if it's the lowest common denominator, it gets people to go "ooooh!"
when they hear it. It hits harder than anything else in the song at first
listen, everything else you have to analyze *ahem*.
> > Compared to Beans you wack
> >
> > flat out wrong, no one buys this
Hmm...I like Beans better than Jay. I was actually about to buy Bean's
album...never once thought about buying a Jay-Z album.
Also if you guys wanna hear some more Jay disses, check out Jayo Felony's
"Trued Up" and "Trued Up (Flamed Up Remix)" and "Jigga's Ass Is Guilty"...
oh and Yukmouth's "Fuck Friendz" dissing Scarface, Too Short and Master P is
a better song than both the ones you're talking about...
--
Josh Scott
sco
tim schnetgoeke
>> Roc-A-Fella is the army, better yet the navy
>
>Army? Navy? what was the point? oh...there wasn't one.
cash money is an army and so roc has to be the navy. sort of...
if that makes any sense.
peace.
tim
Todd Ito
: NAS "ETHER"
: Started cockin up my weapon, slowly loadin up this ammo
: To explode it on a camel, and his soldiers, I can handle
: i've always felt like i'm missing something here...what's the camel reference
: supposed to mean?
jay-z looks like a camel. eerily like a camel.
: did jay say he was better than big? i don't remember
: when, but if he did, who cares?
nas has said in interviews that, before this whole battle started, jay-z
pulled nas aside and told him that he thought he (himself, jay-z) was
better than big and pac.
: this constant placing of big (and pac) on an
: untouchable pedestal really bothers me.
me, too. it gets a little ridiculous on the blueprint 2 (first disc, at
least).
: That ether, that shit that make your soul burn slow
: Is he Dame Diddy, Dame Daddy or Dame Dummy?
: Oh, I get it, you Biggie and he's Puffy
: uhh...? i don't really get nas' dis here. dame dash doesn't really
: parallel puffy at all. unless someone can break this down for me, this
: is weak.
he's like puffy in that he is a businessman who likes being in the
limelight be being in videos and shit, even though he is not an artist.
he's making himself a celebrity by being down with jay-z, just like puffy
made himself into a celebrity by milking his association with biggie.
dame dash, thankfully, doesn't rap (or produce)(or dance), so it's a
little off, but i thought it was a nice line.
: Rockefeller died of AIDS, that was the end of his chapter
: And that's the guy y'all chose to name your company after?
: i don't like this either. did nelson, or another, rockefeller die of aids? i
: don't know, but the company is obviously named after john rockefeller.
: flipping it onto a more recent descendant is kinda shaky. the aids dis,
: probably a subtle anti-gay knock, holds little water in my book.
it's definitely an anti-gay line, which is wack. i think nas might have
confused rockefeller with rock hudson. or maybe he was trying to say that
rock-a-fella was named after rock hudson, which is just stupid. a bad
couplet, for sure.
: And now y'all try to take my spot, fellas?
: Philly's hot rock fellas, put you in a dry spot, fellas
: In a pine box with nine shots from my glock, fellas
: ...but he takes it too far. nice rhyme scheme though
i thought it was dope. the whole reason "ether" is good is because nas
seems really pissed, like he's angry he even has to deal with this shit,
while jay seemed to be enjoying the whole battle. nas is serious, jay is
just having fun.
: Ne-gro please
: You no mustache havin, with whiskers like a rat
: um...
facial hair is very important to some people. seriously. it is.
: Compared to Beans you wack
: flat out wrong, no one buys this
that's true, but nobody believes nas' bodyguard's verse was better than
his, either.
overall, "takeover" is a better song, but "ether" did a lot more damage.
i think nas won.
todd
TJ Xenos
>that's true, but nobody believes nas' bodyguard's verse was better than
>his, either.
horse's verse on oochie wally is the only one i enjoyed at all *shrugs*
Pizon
I always thought he was more of a blowfish myself.
Pizon
>>his, either.
>
>horse's verse on oochie wally is the only one i enjoyed at all *shrugs*
Then again, Nas wasn't even on Oochy Wally, so Jay's line makes no sense to
begin with.
And no, the radio remix doesn't count.
mike c
<ti...@unc.edu> wrote:
> : Rockefeller died of AIDS, that was the end of his chapter
> : And that's the guy y'all chose to name your company after?
>
> : i don't like this either. did nelson, or another, rockefeller die of
aids? > i
> : don't know, but the company is obviously named after john rockefeller.
> : flipping it onto a more recent descendant is kinda shaky. the aids dis,
> : probably a subtle anti-gay knock, holds little water in my book.
>
> it's definitely an anti-gay line, which is wack. i think nas might have
> confused rockefeller with rock hudson. or maybe he was trying to say that
> rock-a-fella was named after rock hudson, which is just stupid. a bad
> couplet, for sure.
This is one of those lines that can go through a lot of interpretations
because a) it's a weak verse and b) it's very vague. My understanding of it
was that Nas was referencing the underground rapper Rockafella (check
Redman's Dare Iz a Darkside for his track) who did die of AIDS right around
the time Redman's album dropped--thus the "Rockafella RIP" song title.
The only problem with that lyrical interpretation is that it's a pretty
obscure reference for someone like Nas to make on a high-profile track like
Ether. But it makes more sense to me than referencing a member of Nelson
Rockafeller's descendants, or even Rock Hudson.
Ether still wins.
-mike c
Nesta
>Date: Sun, Dec 15, 2002 3:25 AM
>> To explode it on a camel, and his soldiers, I can handle
>>
>> i've always felt like i'm missing something here...what's the camel
>reference
>> supposed to mean?
>
>Camels have big lips.
ito also said he looks eerily like a camel. i figured that's what it meant,
but i wasn't sure, cause i always thought he looked more lika turtle.
>> ok there's a point for nas. krs' album wasn't just called _blueprint_,
>but
>> it's a decent point anyway
>
>But that's what everyone calls it for short and I'll be honest, that's the
>first thing I thoguht of when I heard the title of the album.
nah you're right, i didn't give enough credit for this.
>> And your man stabbed Un and made you take the blame
>>
>> is this true? if so, this has potential, but i want more detail
>
>where were you? do you not remember that whole situation stabbing with Lance
>"Un" Rivera, that bootlegger who put out copies of Vol III and Jay caught
>heat for it.
yeah i know the story, and i know that jay eventually plead guilty. i don't
know nothin about someone else actually doing it. when it happened, i know
there was a lot of conjecture about who did it, but when jay finally said he
was guilty, i thought that ended it, jay had been the one. if it was his man
that did the deed, i wanna know how jay got coerced into takin the fall.
Pizon
>but i wasn't sure, cause i always thought he looked more lika turtle.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. So we have one vote for camel, one for blowfish, and one for
turtle.
applesauce
T. Tauri <ea...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> That's pretty much his problem to me. Atomized and dissected, Jay-Z
> covers the bases, but where's the personality? He exudes boringness to
> me. No spontaneity.
hmmm. i'm not quite sure how you measure spontaneity on an album,
you'll have to hip me to this.
radio freestyles and live shows is something else, but when you're
talking about a collection of songs pre-written, recorded and arranged...
and i personally feel that emmeff has a gang of personality -- i hear
it in every bar. lots of charisma and just so damn self assured.
its so fucking hip hop to me. he's almost confident to the point
of smug when he's rapping, and he's got the skills to back it
up..i fucking love it.
> It's like, graph his hip-hop biorhythm and it'd be a
> straight line. I thirst for more wild dips and peaks.
yeah, again, i think i know where you're going with this one, but
i'm not sure i agree (or maybe what you feel he's missing just
isn't as important to me when evaluating an emcee).
and using Ra as the benchmark -- i don't really think "spontaneity"
when i think of him, either. The God is much more cool, calm
and calculating. each word carefully chosen....i see a-lot of
that, plus this whole other playful edge that's fun to listen to in
Jay-Z.
-applesauce
BSE
nesta...@aol.com (Nesta) wrote:
> >From: "Tre' Boogie" funkye...@sbcglobal.net
> >Date: Sat, Dec 14, 2002 12:02 AM
>
> tre boogs!!! hot damn! the return!! you fuckin E to the 3, urbanearthing,
> wannabe nycer!!!! YAY
>
> >> j-hova.
> >>
> >> and frankly, this guy is damn near the perfect emcee in 2002.
>
> >I agree to a certain extent here with Sauce, but he still got bured by Nas'
> >Ether.
>
> uh...say what? the first 2 verse of "ether" were weak. the 3rd was nice, but
> "takeover" was all dope (albeit not all directed at nas). "stillmatic" (the
> original) was kinda nice, but brief.
>
> i've seen this sentiment before...do a lot of people think "ether" took out
> jay-z? if so i'ma have to break those lyrics down on here and find the truth.
Im in the buried by ether group.
But I just cant feel jay-Z beyond his production.
BSE
--
http://www.ukseen.com - There it is!
To reply remove "thepillowfromyourheadandputabookinit"
T. Tauri
>
> T. Tauri <ea...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >That's pretty much his problem to me. Atomized and dissected,
> >Jay-Z covers the bases, but where's the personality? He exudes
> >boringness to me. No spontaneity.
>
> hmmm. i'm not quite sure how you measure spontaneity on an
> album, you'll have to hip me to this.
>
> radio freestyles and live shows is something else, but when
> you're talking about a collection of songs pre-written, recorded
> and arranged...
>
> and i personally feel that emmeff has a gang of personality -- i
> hear it in every bar. lots of charisma and just so damn self
> assured. its so fucking hip hop to me. he's almost confident to
> the point of smug when he's rapping, and he's got the skills to
> back it up..i fucking love it.
I hear the self-assurance, but to me it doesn't come across as
personality. You know how context, context, context is the magic phrase
for us? Being able to work within a context is so important, but I feel
like Jigga is one of those rappers who's TOO MUCH about context. He's
flashy... when the situation calls for it. Funny... when the situation
calls for it. A wordsmith... when the situation calls for it. But
doesn't really display those things to me when the situation doesn't
call for it. Who's he when he's at home (to quote James Joyce)? What
kind of personality does he have, d'you reckon, when he's not on the
mic? I feel like what the self-assurance and smugness allows is for him
to look at any aspect of rap and say "I can do this." But not really, "I
can use this to make my own thing." (I realize that's pretty much what
the music industry desires of all its artists, and thus that it's not
simply a Jay-Z thing, but the hustle by which folks shift units these
days: be the hip-hop Michael Jordan, consciously working your image to
be all things to all people.)
But I remember how folks I was around sweated BDP and Biz Markie equally
and never did it occur to us to say, well Biz Markie doesn't do
conscious rhymes, therefore he's not a complete rapper; or KRS doesn't
have enough humor... Knowwhumsayin? That's how I would like to see
rappers jocked, that's the template for hip-hop I'd prefer; not
expecting them to live up to this mythical "complete MC" ideal we have.
Screw the rap Superman, I want rap X-Men.
> > It's like, graph his hip-hop biorhythm and it'd be a
> > straight line. I thirst for more wild dips and peaks.
>
> yeah, again, i think i know where you're going with this one,
> but i'm not sure i agree (or maybe what you feel he's missing
> just isn't as important to me when evaluating an emcee).
>
> and using Ra as the benchmark -- i don't really think
> "spontaneity" when i think of him, either.
Undoubtedly not. But he also, in his best years, stubbornly maintained
that stern untouchability. (I think I read somewhere how photographers
would try and get him to smile for a few shots, but he wouldn't.) That
was HIS style, and it defined him. Whereas with Jay-Z, it's just one
more context. Is he a thug? Is he a businessman? Is he a playboy? Is he
a conessieur? Is he a lyricist? Is he a really tender-underneath-it-all,
broken-hearted fellow who can't see 'cause of the tears coming down his
eyes? Pick an occasion and he'll choose one.
> The God is much more cool, calm and calculating. each word
> carefully chosen....i see a-lot of that, plus this whole other
> playful edge that's fun to listen to in Jay-Z.
Exactly. But that's what trips him up for me.
Peece,
T. Tauri
BSE
still see Takeover as the better song?
Plus you aint get half of Nas' references so its not fair.
I think Nas is just saying that Jay-Z looks like a camel. Which he does,
and its a great diss. Camels are like the most duck animals (ducks
excepted) and they make for excellent cusses.
Todd Ito
: Screw the rap Superman, I want rap X-Men.
word. that's dope. i do believe there are certain things
all dope emcees should possess to make them "complete," but
i agree that defining "complete" as someone who can do
every style is problematic. since that "takeover"/"ether"
thread is on my mind, i'm thinking of that jay-z line where
he says that nas needs to change his flow up. nas' flow is
crazy dope, and that's HIS style. he doesn't need to flip
other styles to prove himself. in fact, when he tried to
switch up over that wack wanna-be dirty south track on "i am,"
it was terrible.
i also see what you're saying about jay-z's lack of personality.
i still think he's dope, though. his arrogance is so exaggerated,
it IS his personality. he's just cold.
todd
applesauce
T. Tauri <ea...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I hear the self-assurance, but to me it doesn't come across as
> personality.
right on -- and that's what you take away from it.
but not me.
> but I feel
> like Jigga is one of those rappers who's TOO MUCH about
> context. He's
> flashy... when the situation calls for it. Funny... when the situation
> calls for it. A wordsmith... when the situation calls for it. But
> doesn't really display those things to me when the situation doesn't
> call for it.
hmmm. you're losing me again, scooter. i'm just going to rack
it up to we're either looking for different things from emcees
in general, or jay-z specifically, and we're either finding or not
finding it
> Who's he when he's at home (to quote James Joyce)? What
> kind of personality does he have, d'you reckon, when he's not on the
> mic?
i have no idea. i also have no idea who saafir, lyrics born, kool keith,
siah, dat x, butterfly, acey or any other emcee i've ever listened
to are off the mic. and it doesn't really impact the way i judge
them from an artistic POV, or how much enjoyment i get out of
listening to their music (though i know what you're saying).
> I feel like what the self-assurance and smugness allows is for him
> to look at any aspect of rap and say "I can do this." But not really, "I
> can use this to make my own thing."
8<
> But I remember how folks I was around sweated BDP and Biz
> Markie equally
> and never did it occur to us to say, well Biz Markie doesn't do
> conscious rhymes, therefore he's not a complete rapper; or KRS doesn't
> have enough humor... Knowwhumsayin? That's how I would like to see
> rappers jocked, that's the template for hip-hop I'd prefer; not
> expecting them to live up to this mythical "complete MC" ideal we have.
net sum gain? my appreciation for jigga is based on what i get
from his end product. i feel the beats he chooses, i feel his word
placement, voice, the way he banters on the track, etc. etc. when
i start to think about and analyze him, my mind floats to things like
prototypes and archetypes and "the model for the perfect M.C."
and then i appreciate him even more because he can do a lotta
things on the mic, his subject matter is "very hip hop", he calls
motherfuckers out, he sounds very comfortable in the booth
and the shit seems to come really easily to him, etc. etc. this
is a secondary level of appreciation though -- not the first.
by the same token, i can also throw all this shit out the window
and dig on paul barman cause he's nothing but this anti-hip
hop prototype goofball whose lyrics make me laugh on some
2nd grade toilet humor ish -- and that's entertaining too.
i jock rappers based on the way their music affects me. i talk
about and analyze the shit with internet hip hop nerds.
-applesauce
applesauce
Nesta <nesta...@aol.com> wrote:
> there was no sense of creating "classics," or innovating, or creating
> shit that will be remembered for years, etc. the music is more _of_ the
> culture. not something for the culture to analyze or study
> i may be way offbase, but i get the feeling these traditional folk
> music forms were not created with such a conscious artistic sense
> of will this hit?
> the music didn't necessarily need to live on its own - it
> complemented eating, or meeting, or storytelling, or whatever. it was
> intertwined with the culture, not independent, and not meant to be.
all super good points. kind of what i was thinking, but you did
a great job of articulating it.
> sauce argued ( i guess it was in his other post) that hip-hop, or
> any artform, is dead or dying if it isn't innovating.
almost true. i think innovation is a key attribute, but there are others
that are also extremely important, including:
-dopeness to crap ratio (objective assessment -- personal taste aside)
-annual tally of significant individual achievements
and there are other criteria that are super important too -- i just haven't
been able to distill them yet.
> i kind of agree w/ quiz...a hot record is always gonna get me open.
and this is where this conversation starts to get convoluted.
cause me too. "what's golden" still gets me open. and that's
all well and good. but that's neither here nor there when
we're trying to evaluate the aggregate health of a genre and
debating how much artistic gasoline is has left in its tank.
i'm always going to dig hip hop music. i love the formula -- and
always have. since the first time i heard whodini. but that alone
is not going to sustain hip hop as an artistic movement. popular
opinion/interest and a number of other factors will.
at some point, people will get sick of hip hop, just like they did
disco. or hair rock. or big band. it's the nature of pop culture.
things change and people are always looking for the next. hip
hop is fucking ubiquitous right now...and it will probably
continue to be an important part of popular culture for years
to come...but again, the question is -- how much gas is left
in the tank.
> but what if it doesn't? what if what's
> going on now just keeps happening in a dope manner? would that be
> so bad? or would it, by its very nature, become boring?
i'd argue yes.
> but maybe i'm cheating. maybe it's not hip-hop equals paintingn
> and drum machines equal impressionism. maybe music=painting,
> and hip-hop=impressionism.
that's the analogy i was driving at. i think that makes more hiearcal
sense.
> >what's the last album you heard that really just KNOCKED YOU
> >ON YOUR ASS?
> well is that a change in hip-hop? or in you? in us?
potentially all three.
> what's the the last album you heard in any form of music that
> knocked you on your ass? have there been any, many, since
> 1998?
wow, there's been A SHITLOAD that i've *heard for the 1st
time* (though the music wasn't necessarily released post-98)(can't
decide if that's important or not...i keep going back and forth on it).
just in the past year :
beck -- sea change
radiohead -- ok computer
john coltrane -- ballads
white stripes -- white blood cells
bjork -- vespertine
tortoise -- tnt
beatles -- rubber soul
fred wesley & the jb's -- damn right i am somebody
maceo parker -- us
shuggie otis -- inspiration information
ok, so you can say, "well, you're just not feeling hip hop like
you used to, then."
maybe.
but in late 95/ early 96, i would argue that i was already a
pretty damn "experienced listener" (13 years deep) and that
didn't stop me from being floored by (over the course of the
next couple years)(and not neccessarily all on the level of
ABOHL, for the record):
-siah and yesha -- the visualz
-latyrx -- latyrx
-company flow -- funcrusher plus
-de la -- stakes is high
-gza -- liquid swords
-jugganots -- ep
-camp lo -- uptown saturday night
-gangstarr -- moment of truth
-hieroglyphics -- 3rd eye vision
-outkast -- ATLiens
-the roots -- Illadelph Halflife
-sadat x -- wild cowboys
-jurrasic 5 -- 1st ep
-pharcyde -- labcabincalifornia
-dj shadow -- endtroducing
-ghostface -- ironman
-t-love -- return of the b-girl ep
-goodie mob -- soul food
as well as a gang of 12 inchers and other albums i'm undoubtedly
leaving out.
and its not like i'm just diversifying into a bunch of other musical
formats now, and that's somehow lessening my focus on hip
hop...or polluting my appreciation. i want hip hop to produce
bangers like it used to...i'm just not seeing it (and i'm looking).
> i would love to, but i have the feeling i wouldn't let it. i won't
> argue that hip-hop is necessarily creating as many classics as it
> once did, but i am aware of changes in me that would prevent
> me from really being blown away by a piece of music
> like i used to.
valid point nonetheless.
-applesauce
memeplex
news:3df86f76...@News.CIS.DFN.DE:
>
> I wish the folks who are "done w/ hip-hop" would just fucking leave
> already and so the rest of us can be left alone to enjoy the music.
>
> fuck hip-hop? ba-bye......and don't let the door smack you in the
> ass on your way out.
>
>
> 齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌
> `偕爻,虜,齯漱�虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯�
>
> Mochaspresso
>
> Do not use a hatchet to remove a fly from a friend's forehead.
> --Chinese Proverb
>
> ** Banner appears courtesy of the honorable Gortician **
i'm just getting into hiphop.
--
memeplex
**i like the honorable gortician's banner**
Tre' Boogie
"mochaspresso" <mochas...@notsohotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3df86f76...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
>
> I wish the folks who are "done w/ hip-hop" would just fucking leave
> already and so the rest of us can be left alone to enjoy the music.
really? all of them? even us?
See, I feel that everyone is entitled to their opinion. And expecially on
this board, especially if you've been a long time fan and then are saying
"fuck hip-hop",,,there must be a reason. So I say, bring it on. If you
aren't willing to open up and listen to someone elses opinion, then maybe
it's time for you to go.
Here, we may argue, fight, debate, but that's what we're here for.
*MY* problem is with those who really haven't had anything to do with the
culture of the music and saying "fuck hip-hop." And still, I wanna know why
because you can usually break it down...and once it's been broken...what can
one really say?
Basically, everything is open for discussion because "Fuck Hip-Hop" is
certainly more on topic than some of the shit that goes on up in this piece.
> fuck hip-hop? ba-bye......and don't let the door smack you in the ass
> on your way out.
Fuck hip-hop.
Tre' Boogie
Tre' Boogie
"mochaspresso" <mochas...@notsohotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3df86f76...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
>
> I wish the folks who are "done w/ hip-hop" would just fucking leave
> already and so the rest of us can be left alone to enjoy the music.
really? all of them? even us?
See, I feel that everyone is entitled to their opinion. And especially on
this board, especially if you've been a long time fan and then are saying
"fuck hip-hop",,,there must be a reason. So I say, bring it on. If you
aren't willing to open up and listen to someone else's opinion, then maybe
BSE
> > T. Tauri <ea...@worldnet.att.net> wrote about Jay-Z:
> I hear the self-assurance, but to me it doesn't come across as
> personality. You know how context, context, context is the magic phrase
> for us? Being able to work within a context is so important, but I feel
> like Jigga is one of those rappers who's TOO MUCH about context. He's
> flashy... when the situation calls for it. Funny... when the situation
> calls for it. A wordsmith... when the situation calls for it. But
> doesn't really display those things to me when the situation doesn't
> call for it. Who's he when he's at home (to quote James Joyce)? What
> kind of personality does he have, d'you reckon, when he's not on the
> mic? I feel like what the self-assurance and smugness allows is for him
> to look at any aspect of rap and say "I can do this." But not really, "I
> can use this to make my own thing." (I realize that's pretty much what
> the music industry desires of all its artists, and thus that it's not
> simply a Jay-Z thing, but the hustle by which folks shift units these
> days: be the hip-hop Michael Jordan, consciously working your image to
> be all things to all people.)
You so on the money.
> But I remember how folks I was around sweated BDP and Biz Markie equally
> and never did it occur to us to say, well Biz Markie doesn't do
> conscious rhymes, therefore he's not a complete rapper; or KRS doesn't
> have enough humor... Knowwhumsayin? That's how I would like to see
> rappers jocked, that's the template for hip-hop I'd prefer; not
> expecting them to live up to this mythical "complete MC" ideal we have.
> Screw the rap Superman, I want rap X-Men.
I agree with teh sentiment but I think in reality we realy want rap
"Inhumans" cos they are better than the X-Men and more interesting and
specialised. There should be a rapper who never says anything, but if he
did it would cause a massive explosion, and a rapper whos hair can be used
to hold microphones, and a big dog rapper who can teleport. For reals!
Or at least the Avengers.
> > > It's like, graph his hip-hop biorhythm and it'd be a
> > > straight line. I thirst for more wild dips and peaks.
> >
> > yeah, again, i think i know where you're going with this one,
> > but i'm not sure i agree (or maybe what you feel he's missing
> > just isn't as important to me when evaluating an emcee).
> >
> > and using Ra as the benchmark -- i don't really think
> > "spontaneity" when i think of him, either.
>
> Undoubtedly not. But he also, in his best years, stubbornly maintained
> that stern untouchability. (I think I read somewhere how photographers
> would try and get him to smile for a few shots, but he wouldn't.) That
> was HIS style, and it defined him. Whereas with Jay-Z, it's just one
> more context. Is he a thug? Is he a businessman? Is he a playboy? Is he
> a conessieur? Is he a lyricist? Is he a really tender-underneath-it-all,
> broken-hearted fellow who can't see 'cause of the tears coming down his
> eyes? Pick an occasion and he'll choose one.
So what your saying it hes a fake, a fan, a phony, a pussy a stan?
Fatboy Roberts
"BSE" <b...@thepillowfromyourheadandputabookinitukseen.com> wrote in message
news:bse-161202...@host213-123-66-72.btinternet.com...
> Camels are like the most duck animals (ducks
> excepted) and they make for excellent cusses.
And you motherfuckers think the guy who fucks pitbulls at work or whatever
was out there.
I mean, what the FUCK is ol Beezerton trying to SAY right there? And don't
come at me with some "it's a limey thing, you wouldn't understand" because
LIMEYS wouldn't know what the fuck just tripped off Beezy's tongue, and
tumbled over his greened, chipped teeth.
camels are duck animals who make for good cusses.
o_O
Fatboy
A to the L
<applesauceTAST...@greasykidincorporated.com> said:
>my appreciation for jigga .... "the model for the perfect M.C."
>by the same token, i can also throw all this shit out the window
>and dig on paul barman ....and that's entertaining too.
are you my long lost brother?
PIECES
A to the L
"You can put wings on a pig, but that doesn't make it an eagle."
mochaspresso
<funkye...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>"mochaspresso" <mochas...@notsohotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3df86f76...@News.CIS.DFN.DE...
>>
>> I wish the folks who are "done w/ hip-hop" would just fucking leave
>> already and so the rest of us can be left alone to enjoy the music.
>really? all of them? even us?
>
Yep
This is not exactly a fresh or new discussion to the boards. It's
been rehashed so many different times already. Yes, everyone's
entitled to their opinions and they certainly keep posting the same
ones over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
over and over and over and over again.
>See, I feel that everyone is entitled to their opinion. And especially on
>this board, especially if you've been a long time fan and then are saying
>"fuck hip-hop",,,there must be a reason. So I say, bring it on. If you
>aren't willing to open up and listen to someone else's opinion, then maybe
>it's time for you to go.
>
>Here, we may argue, fight, debate, but that's what we're here for.
>
>*MY* problem is with those who really haven't had anything to do with the
>culture of the music and saying "fuck hip-hop." And still, I wanna know why
>because you can usually break it down...and once it's been broken...what can
>one really say?
>
>Basically, everything is open for discussion because "Fuck Hip-Hop" is
>certainly more on topic than some of the shit that goes on up in this piece.
>
>> fuck hip-hop? ba-bye......and don't let the door smack you in the ass
>> on your way out.
>
>Fuck hip-hop.
>
There's nothing wrong w/ hip-hop. There's nothing wrong w/ RMHH and
there never has been. Neither are perfect and I never expected them
to be. I just enjoy them for what they are and accept them as they
are and in all of their forms. While you folks discuss, I'll be in
the corner w/ headphones listening to the music and laughing at the
weird link that Al posted the other day.
When your done, if you still wanna say fuck hip-hop, that's fine.
Just make sure you shut the door on your way out. There's no lock on
it by the way, although sometimes I wish there were. Well, maybe a
lock is a bit much, maybe just a couple of bouncers. Anyway, the
club is always open and doesn't stamp your hand......so if you ever
change your mind, you can always get back in.
I just wish you'd stop being so wishy-washy. Make up your mind
already..........and get out of the doorway while you stand there and
decide. It's rude.
(...the "You" is a universal you. If any of you read it and feel that
it's directed at you, then it most certainly is directed at you.) :o)
齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯漱�虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯�
Mochaspresso
"House music all night long...." (another forgotten era)
http://www.walrus.com/%7Esuave/movebody.ram
http://www.walrus.com/%7Esuave/raze.ram
mochaspresso
>
>i'm just getting into hiphop.
>
Welcome and enjoy.
Feel free to speak your mind.......and be able to take it when folks
speak their's.
>--
>memeplex
>**i like the honorable gortician's banner**
Thank you. He gave it to me. Such a nice man, even though he's a
troll and lives under a bridge. ;o)
齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯漱�虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯�
Mochaspresso
"House music all night long...." (another forgotten era)
http://www.walrus.com/%7Esuave/movebody.ram
http://www.walrus.com/%7Esuave/raze.ram
** Banner appears courtesy of the honorable Gortician **
endus
<hesbac...@fuckyou.com> wrote:
>"In a message dated 12/9/02 9:16:45 AM, ttp...@hotmail.com writes:
>
><< Subject: Hip Hop music
>Just an article to get you guys thinking about the hip-hop industry.
>
>FUCK HIP HOP
This has been posted everywhere. I refuse to read the whole thing
because it sounds like more of that hiphop is dead bullshit from a
couple years ago. If you don't like the mainstream, the best way to
change it is to listen to and support the shit you do like. Also, try
to get other people to listen to it too. Making statements about how
the whole genre is fucked and all that is boring and played out.
Cats spend all this time complaining about how fucked up thiphop
is...they should spend that time getting involved in their local
scene. I've watched artists develop from locals to gettnig national
and international attention and it's all due to fan support.
Bringing the same tired negativity doesnt do anything. The fact is
that most people are dumb and will listen to whatever the record
company puts in front of them. So you just have to work on getting
your music out there and get people listening to it...then things will
change. Pissing and moaning about FUCK HIPHOP this and HIPOP IS DEAD
that is just more of the same passive do-nothing attitude that's so
typical of a lot of hiphop heads and our generation in general.
Everybody's got an opinion and, really, who gives a fuck anymore. Yea
yea, the music you want to hear or that you make isn't getting the
shine it deserves. Writing about it isn't going to do anything. Bust
out the tables or the computer and make a mixtape to give to your
friends to get them into the music you listen to...go get on
somebody's street team...etc. There's a million things you can do to
change the music and shape the genre. This attitude is so prevalent
in the fans and the business...the attitude that it's always someone
else's fault. I may not be as oldschool as a lot of heads, but it's
pretty easy to see that hiphop has ALWAYS drawn it's strength from
participation. Now nobody wants to participate: they just want
everything done for them. I hear cats talking aaaallll the time about
how this show wasn't organized right and the promoter did this and
didn't do that, how MC SuperDope didn't get a long enough set...but I
don't see cats doing anything about it. I know that not everyone is
in a position to be a promoter but I also see too much passivity.
Discussion can help get things out there, but eventually someone has
to step up to the plate.
You know who makes it in this business: people who hussle. I'm not
syaing there aren't a lot of artists (esp in the Boston scene) that
deserve more credit than they get and should be more sucessful based
on the effort that they put in...but do you know who is making it from
Boston today: the cats whose names kept getting in my face...the cats
who I'd see flyers for every time they were doing a show...the cats
who were making it onto compilations and dropping 12's. Hiphop can be
a purely creative endeavour but if you want to talk about shows and
CD's and availability the business is going to come into play and you
need to treat it like a business. That's what you have to look at
from the side of the MC trying to make it OR from the perspective of a
fan.
As a fan if you want to see the stuff you're listening to get some
shine you've got to think about how you can help and do it. Whining
about FUCK HIPHOP and bringing that negativity isn't helping anything.
If anything you're just driving the non-heads away with talk like
that, and unfortunately a lot of times it's the non-heads who make
people start to blow when they pick up on something. I wish I had
pictures of certain artists' shows now and a couple years
ago...there's a looooot of new faces there. You know what though:
those are the same artists that are doing well today. As much as that
crowd bums me out, that's the crowd you have to put up with to bring
in the dollars and get attention for your shit. Sure, it would be
nice if we could write an essay and change everyone's tastes
overnight, but that's not how it works. You can change the way people
look at hiphop and what kind of things they value in it, but the only
way to do that is by showing them what it can be and why it's
important to have substance and the only way to do that is to do what
you can to help local/underground artists.
Hiphop is a democracy...it's time to get out and vote.
~~ e ~~ n ~~ d ~~ u ~~ s ~~ d ~~ o ~~ t ~~ c ~~ o ~~ m ~~
There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some
kind of high powered mutant never even considered
for mass production. Too weird to live, and too
rare to die. -Hunter S. Thomson
memeplex
news:3dfdb158...@News.CIS.DFN.DE:
> On 16 Dec 2002 01:24:34 GMT, memeplex <memep...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>i'm just getting into hiphop.
>
> Welcome and enjoy.
thanks!
> Feel free to speak your mind.......and be able to take it when folks
> speak their's.
no problem with any of that for me.
>>**i like the honorable gortician's banner**
>
> Thank you. He gave it to me. Such a nice man, even though he's a
> troll and lives under a bridge. ;o)
that sounds like a dangerous business with horrible living conditions!
--
memeplex
Aztec
endus <do...@email.invalid> wrote:
> Hiphop is a democracy...it's time to get out and vote.
"yeah you get props over here!"
Word up Endus. Most people are lazy and just wannabe armchair
quarterbacks...cool. Not everybody can play the game, but it you can't
then DO SOMETHING besides just sitting there and whining. All these
devoted supporters of hip-hop talk big but when it comes down to doing
something...blah. Passive vs. Active participation...we all remember
that old sample
"Do it, Get Involved"
And yes...It's ok if you wanna play the role of simple critic or simple
fan...there is a place in hip-hop or any artform for that role. Just
don't expect to be taken seriously or respected on the same level as
those who active supporters.
pce-out,
Aztec
tim schnetgoeke <use...@desinformed.org> wrote:
> "Tre' Boogie" <funkye...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >> Roc-A-Fella is the army, better yet the navy
> >
> >Army? Navy? what was the point? oh...there wasn't one.
>
> cash money is an army and so roc has to be the navy. sort of...
>
Jay is referencing the B.G. song "Cash Money is an army" where the
chorous goes "Cash Money is an army, better yet the navy, so if you ever
try to harm me nigga, it ain't gravy nigga."
He's giving a nod to his southern fanbase and also hinting at potential
allies in his war...a good tactical and political move for Jay.
Basically, Jay is suggesting that in a war, he has more people on his
side...more soldiers...not just tri-state fans. He has a southern
regiment...that is the point.
fuck...I don't wanna get into this debate. I know what I like and typing
over and over again is not gonna change my mind or those who like the
other cut..but...
"Ether" is one dimensional run of the mill gun play drivel with an
occasional uncontested hard diss to Jay.
"Takeover" has a better beat, more energy, is more pointed in it's
attacks, references true/personal incidents with Nas and also manages to
take out other enemies (Mobb Deep) in it.
Essentialy, long time Nas fans (those who got gassed off Illmatic, the
nostalgic cats) will think "Ether" is a better cut, while those who
didn't jock Nas from the Nasty days will see with eyes unclouded that
"Takeover" is the better cut.
Nas got points for calling Jay a camel (yes he looks like a camel...Joe
Camel to be specific lol), calling him a Taebo hoe, mentioning KRS's
"Blueprint," and "Queens niggas run you niggas ask Russel Simmons"
But in the end..."Takeover" had a lot more pointed barbs that skewered
Nas. And ya wanna talk blasphemy? Like Jay-Hova, Nas whole image is also
based on blasphemy..."God's Son?"
'When I was twelve I went to hell for snuffin' Jesus - I'm waving
automatic guns at nuns'- Live At the BBQ
"I carry the cross. If Virgin Mary had an abortion, I'd still be carried
in a chariot by stampeding horses." - The Cross
That's from his earliest shit to his latest shit...
and yet he claimed to say Jesus was his saviour in the text that
proceeds the "Hate Me Now" video???
typical Nas....
pce-out,
Pizon
>all dope emcees should possess to make them "complete," but
>i agree that defining "complete" as someone who can do
>every style is problematic.
If a rapper truly could do every style, it wouldn't be problematic. The
problem lies when they try to redefine their style to fit the mold of the style
they are trying to create, as opposed to expanding on their existing (and
natural) style.
TreBoogie
> On Mon, 16 Dec 2002 02:12:42 GMT, "Tre' Boogie"
> <funkye...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Yep
>
> This is not exactly a fresh or new discussion to the boards.
really?
>It's
> been rehashed so many different times already. Yes, everyone's
> entitled to their opinions and they certainly keep posting the same
> ones over and over and over and over and over and over and over and
> over and over and over and over again.
Really? How long have you been here? How many times have you seen it?
Cuz I've only been here for like a few days.
> There's nothing wrong w/ hip-hop. There's nothing wrong w/ RMHH and
> there never has been. Neither are perfect and I never expected them
> to be. I just enjoy them for what they are and accept them as they
> are and in all of their forms. While you folks discuss, I'll be in
> the corner w/ headphones listening to the music and laughing at the
> weird link that Al posted the other day.
There's *nothing* wrong w/ hip-hop? really? Oh boy.
So you don't think there's anything wrong with most of mainstream
hip-hop marketed towards young impressionable youth and young girls
are dressing like they're going on 25 rather than 15? You don't think
there's a problem with the images of hip-hop on TV and movies as
"gangster," "thuggish," overall just shitty and not at all
representative of the culture of HIP-HOP as a whole? It doesn't bother
you in the least that the other elements of the culture are almost
completely ignored by people who consider themselves "heads" not to
mention the rest of the industry and the media?
You accept them? Well, if that's the case then maybe you should really
just stick to watching MTV and wearing your headphones in the corner
because we are here to discuss.
> When your done, if you still wanna say fuck hip-hop, that's fine.
> Just make sure you shut the door on your way out. There's no lock on
> it by the way, although sometimes I wish there were. Well, maybe a
> lock is a bit much, maybe just a couple of bouncers. Anyway, the
> club is always open and doesn't stamp your hand......so if you ever
> change your mind, you can always get back in.
Wow. I am amazed. Thank you for allowing me to be here. And I am so
disturbed at myself that I wanna run and cry. Boo fucking hoo.
You should really understand that you are just as bad as the people
who say "fuck hip-hop" because you fail to see the beauty in the
diversity in it all. You just go along with what ever you are told to
accept. Honey...that is not what this culture has been built on.
Hip-hop exists because people want to be heard.
> I just wish you'd stop being so wishy-washy. Make up your mind
> already..........and get out of the doorway while you stand there and
> decide. It's rude.
You really are closed minded, aren't you. I'm so sorry about that. You
don't know me, you don't know the extent to which I have been involved
with this culture. I love this culture more than you could ever
understand and I will say fuck hip-hop, but I will not leave it
behind. I say fuck hip-hop and do what is in my power to change the
things within my grasp because that is what it's about. If you don't
care about what's going on in it, then you really don't have a place
here.
> 齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯漱�虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯�
And by this I can see that you are young and impetuous.
Pizon
Whoa. You've only been here for a few days and you've already figured out that
Mochaspresso is a girl? It took me a whole fucking year.
I know the screen name is supposed to give it away, but damn... I guess it's my
Latin persuasion. Anything ending with an "o" is automatically assumed to be
masculine until further notice.
applesauce
> are you my long lost brother?
maybe!
poppa was a playa...playa was a poppa...and i wouldn't be the least
bit surprised if i had a bastard sibling or three someplace out there.
-applesauce
---Pete---
> automatic guns at nuns'- Live At the BBQ
Where in barbecue does Nas say Waving automatic guns at nuns? I think you're
confusing it with Back To The Grill.
---Pete---
mochaspresso
wrote:
>
>Really? How long have you been here?
Long enough to have seen you come and go and come back again.
>How many times have you seen it?
It comes up several times a year. And the sentiment is almost always
from a "fair weather friend".
>Cuz I've only been here for like a few days.
>
>There's *nothing* wrong w/ hip-hop? really? Oh boy.
>
>So you don't think there's anything wrong with most of mainstream
>hip-hop marketed towards young impressionable youth and young girls
>are dressing like they're going on 25 rather than 15?
I was born in 1969. I saw pics of my mom from the early and mid 60's.
She wore these things called micro mini's. They were quite the rage
and also quite the scandal back in those days. My great grandma
actually remembered her mother telling her about the times when women
first started raising their hemlines above the ankle and told me about
it when I was a little girl. That was quite the scandal too. Young
girls have always grown up "too fast". Young girls haven't changed
nor have the times. Only the fashions and hairstyles have changed.
>You don't think
>there's a problem with the images of hip-hop on TV and movies as
>"gangster," "thuggish," overall just shitty and not at all
>representative of the culture of HIP-HOP as a whole?
My images of hip-hop do not solely include "ganster and thuggish."
and never did. That must be all you choose to see.
Btw, one of my mom's fav songs was called Stagger Lee by Lloyd Price.
It's about a man who murders someone over a gambling debt. I also
remember that one of her fav albums was Millie Jackson's "Caught Up".
Cussing and inappropriate material all through it and I listened to it
all the time growing up. Here's a little tip.......it's how you raise
your kids and the examples you set for them in your life that has the
most influence on how they turn out. Not what they warch on TV or
what they listen to on the radio. I'm not saying that you shouldn't
use judgement in censoring what they watch during the early years, but
for the most part, TV/radio is only a problem if you're allowing the
TV/radio to raise them instead of you being there to do your job.
Contrary to popular beliief, I doubt that cleaning up hip-hop will
help to clean up life. It's the other way around. Clean up life and
the art that's spawned from that life will change as well.
> It doesn't bother
>you in the least that the other elements of the culture are almost
>completely ignored by people who consider themselves "heads" not to
>mention the rest of the industry and the media?
>
I've posted on this before. If you care, you can google me for my
views on "hip-hop culture".
>You accept them? Well, if that's the case then maybe you should really
>just stick to watching MTV and wearing your headphones in the corner
>because we are here to discuss.
>
This sounds rather arrogant. You really have no idea who you are
speaking to. It also doesn't seem as if you are here to "discuss".
At least not when it come to me.
>
>Wow. I am amazed. Thank you for allowing me to be here. And I am so
>disturbed at myself that I wanna run and cry. Boo fucking hoo.
>
>You should really understand that you are just as bad as the people
>who say "fuck hip-hop" because you fail to see the beauty in the
>diversity in it all.
Accepting it wholeheartedly, the good, the bad, the ugly and the grimy
IS part of seeing the beauty and diversity in it all.
>You just go along with what ever you are told to
>accept. Honey...that is not what this culture has been built on.
>Hip-hop exists because people want to be heard.
>
More arrogance.
>> I just wish you'd stop being so wishy-washy. Make up your mind
>> already..........and get out of the doorway while you stand there and
>> decide. It's rude.
>
>You really are closed minded, aren't you.
Far from it.
> I'm so sorry about that. You
>don't know me, you don't know the extent to which I have been involved
>with this culture.
Actually, I'm familiar w/ your screen name. I've been reading these
boards for quite a while. Much longer than I've been posting and I
have been posting for a few years now.. I really don't care about
how much of a "hip-hopper" you think you are. Folks tend to come and
go. The music is what I care about.
>I love this culture more than you could ever
>understand and I will say fuck hip-hop, but I will not leave it
>behind. I say fuck hip-hop and do what is in my power to change the
>things within my grasp because that is what it's about. If you don't
>care about what's going on in it, then you really don't have a place
>here.
>
Ummm-hmmmm.....how long are you planning to stick around for this
time?
>> 齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯漱�虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯�>
>And by this I can see that you are young and impetuous.
>
You were able to determine this from a banner in a sig on usenet? I
don't think I'm the one w/ the closed mind.....
"Bag lady....you gon hurt your back. Carryin all them bags like
that....."
.
齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯漱�虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯�
Mochaspresso
Have you found your life distasteful? My life did, and does, smack sweet.
Was your youth of pleasure wasteful? Mine I saved and hold complete.
Do your joys with age diminish? When mine fail me, I'll complain.
Must in death your daylight finish? My sun sets to rise again.
--Robert Browning
Aztec
"---Pete---" <hesbac...@fuckyou.com> wrote:
you are correct. I'm getting my lines mixed up.
Tre' Boogie
news:20021216155636...@mb-mq.aol.com...
> >Honey...that is not what this culture has been built on.
>
> Whoa. You've only been here for a few days and you've already figured out
that
> Mochaspresso is a girl? It took me a whole fucking year.
A little birdy told me actually. I won't say who or why.
> I know the screen name is supposed to give it away, but damn... I guess
it's my
> Latin persuasion. Anything ending with an "o" is automatically assumed to
be
> masculine until further notice.
Have you figured out all the other females on here?
Tre' Boogs
Tre' Boogie
>
> Long enough to have seen you come and go and come back again.
Nice to know I'm remembered. And I've come, gone, come back, then gone again
a few times.
> >How many times have you seen it?
>
> It comes up several times a year. And the sentiment is almost always
> from a "fair weather friend".
Actually, this was a rhetorical questions. If you've been here that long
then we both know this is always popping up.
> >Cuz I've only been here for like a few days.
> >
> >There's *nothing* wrong w/ hip-hop? really? Oh boy.
> >
> >So you don't think there's anything wrong with most of mainstream
> >hip-hop marketed towards young impressionable youth and young girls
> >are dressing like they're going on 25 rather than 15?
>
> I was born in 1969. I saw pics of my mom from the early and mid 60's.
> She wore these things called micro mini's. They were quite the rage
> and also quite the scandal back in those days.
Cool. My mom wore them too and she did get in a bit of trouble for them. She
was in her 20's. How old was your mom when she wore hers. My mom looked
really cute back in the day. She even had an afro.
>My great grandma
> actually remembered her mother telling her about the times when women
> first started raising their hemlines above the ankle and told me about
> it when I was a little girl. That was quite the scandal too. Young
> girls have always grown up "too fast". Young girls haven't changed
> nor have the times. Only the fashions and hairstyles have changed.
Hmm...little girls always want to be older. Older girls want to be younger,
that wasn't the point. My point is that over the years, it has gone beyond
the fashion. I'm sorry, I just don't think 15 year old girls should be
wearing skirts to their cootchies and low cut tops reavealing their almost
cleavege. It adds to the mysogyny that has plagued hip-hop for a *very* long
time as I'm sure you have seen. (Of course you do, you've been around.) And
the mysogyny seems to be affecting boys at a younger and younger age which
does not bode well with me.
> >You don't think
> >there's a problem with the images of hip-hop on TV and movies as
> >"gangster," "thuggish," overall just shitty and not at all
> >representative of the culture of HIP-HOP as a whole?
>
> My images of hip-hop do not solely include "ganster and thuggish."
> and never did. That must be all you choose to see.
Rad carefully. These are the images on TV * movies that *I* have a problem
with. I see more than that, which is why *I* have a problem with it.
> Btw, one of my mom's fav songs was called Stagger Lee by Lloyd Price.
> It's about a man who murders someone over a gambling debt. I also
> remember that one of her fav albums was Millie Jackson's "Caught Up".
> Cussing and inappropriate material all through it and I listened to it
> all the time growing up. Here's a little tip.......it's how you raise
> your kids and the examples you set for them in your life that has the
> most influence on how they turn out. Not what they warch on TV or
> what they listen to on the radio. I'm not saying that you shouldn't
> use judgement in censoring what they watch during the early years, but
> for the most part, TV/radio is only a problem if you're allowing the
> TV/radio to raise them instead of you being there to do your job.
Granted a parent does have their responsibilities to raise their child. But
as we have all seen, sometimes, that's just not enough. I've seen it happen.
Parents can to always control tehir children. This is getting a little off
topic, so if you'd like to discuss this in a seperate thread, I'm more than
happy.
> Contrary to popular beliief, I doubt that cleaning up hip-hop will
> help to clean up life. It's the other way around. Clean up life and
> the art that's spawned from that life will change as well.
But we have to start somewhere, don't we? If art imitates life then we have
to start by cleaning up our lives then the art will follow. And that's my
point. We have to start with us as individuals.
> > It doesn't bother
> >you in the least that the other elements of the culture are almost
> >completely ignored by people who consider themselves "heads" not to
> >mention the rest of the industry and the media?
> >
> I've posted on this before. If you care, you can google me for my
> views on "hip-hop culture".
gladly.
> >You accept them? Well, if that's the case then maybe you should really
> >just stick to watching MTV and wearing your headphones in the corner
> >because we are here to discuss.
> >
> This sounds rather arrogant. You really have no idea who you are
> speaking to. It also doesn't seem as if you are here to "discuss".
> At least not when it come to me.
Aren't we discussing now? And that was my agenda really. And not to point
fingers, but I believe you were the one who was the first to tell someone to
go away and told us you like to listen to music with your headphones in the
corner.
> >Wow. I am amazed. Thank you for allowing me to be here. And I am so
> >disturbed at myself that I wanna run and cry. Boo fucking hoo.
> >
> >You should really understand that you are just as bad as the people
> >who say "fuck hip-hop" because you fail to see the beauty in the
> >diversity in it all.
>
> Accepting it wholeheartedly, the good, the bad, the ugly and the grimy
> IS part of seeing the beauty and diversity in it all.
I understand where you're coming from with this. But then is it fair to say
that we have to accept the injustices of the world just because we want to
live? I embrace all of hip-hop but it does not mean I should not want to
change the things that bring out the bad in people.
> >You just go along with what ever you are told to
> >accept. Honey...that is not what this culture has been built on.
> >Hip-hop exists because people want to be heard.
> >
> More arrogance.
I know. I get that way sometimes when it comes to hip-hop because I love it
so.
> >> I just wish you'd stop being so wishy-washy. Make up your mind
> >> already..........and get out of the doorway while you stand there and
> >> decide. It's rude.
> >
> >You really are closed minded, aren't you.
>
> Far from it.
I appologize for the statement. It was low and does not pertain to this
discussion.
> > I'm so sorry about that. You
> >don't know me, you don't know the extent to which I have been involved
> >with this culture.
>
> Actually, I'm familiar w/ your screen name. I've been reading these
> boards for quite a while. Much longer than I've been posting and I
> have been posting for a few years now.. I really don't care about
> how much of a "hip-hopper" you think you are. Folks tend to come and
> go. The music is what I care about.
Still, my screen name is not me. There's plenty that I've done and am a part
of that does not make it here. I don't call myself a hip-hopper. I'm just
me.
See, the culture is what I care about. All of it. And regardless of how many
times I come and go on this board, I always will.
> >I love this culture more than you could ever
> >understand and I will say fuck hip-hop, but I will not leave it
> >behind. I say fuck hip-hop and do what is in my power to change the
> >things within my grasp because that is what it's about. If you don't
> >care about what's going on in it, then you really don't have a place
> >here.
> >
>
> Ummm-hmmmm.....how long are you planning to stick around for this
> time?
If you must know, Friday when I go out of town for the holidays. My return
will depend on my schedule after the holidays.
And I don't believe that my length of stay here is indicitive of my
dedication to the culture. Excuse me if I have a life outside of RMHH.
> >>
齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,��齯漱�虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯�> >
> >And by this I can see that you are young and impetuous.
> >
>
> You were able to determine this from a banner in a sig on usenet? I
> don't think I'm the one w/ the closed mind.....
Again, I appologize for that statement. It was low and personal.
> "Bag lady....you gon hurt your back. Carryin all them bags like
> that....."
My personal baggage has to ties with this arguement. But thanks for the
quote.
Thank you for your participation in this discussion. It was all I wanted.
Tre' Boogie
"Aztec" <thehip...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:thehiphopzone-5B2...@newssvr21-ext.news.prodigy.com...
> And ya wanna talk blasphemy? Like Jay-Hova, Nas whole image is also
> based on blasphemy..."God's Son?"
hmm...point taken.
Tre' Boogs
BSE
<fatboy_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
nah I stand by that. I re-read it and it seemed fine to me, which is
unusual for my unchecked bs.
BS
Tre' Boogie
>
> Long enough to have seen you come and go and come back again.
Nice to know I'm remembered. And I've come, gone, come back, then gone again
a few times. I started off with a different screen name actually so I've
been here much longer than I let on.
> >How many times have you seen it?
>
> It comes up several times a year. And the sentiment is almost always
> from a "fair weather friend".
Actually, this was a rhetorical questions. If you've been here that long
then we both know this is always popping up.
> >Cuz I've only been here for like a few days.
> >
> >There's *nothing* wrong w/ hip-hop? really? Oh boy.
> >
> >So you don't think there's anything wrong with most of mainstream
> >hip-hop marketed towards young impressionable youth and young girls
> >are dressing like they're going on 25 rather than 15?
>
> I was born in 1969. I saw pics of my mom from the early and mid 60's.
> She wore these things called micro mini's. They were quite the rage
> and also quite the scandal back in those days.
Cool. My mom wore them too and she did get in a bit of trouble for them. She
was in her 20's. How old was your mom when she wore hers. My mom looked
really cute back in the day. She even had an afro.
>My great grandma
> actually remembered her mother telling her about the times when women
> first started raising their hemlines above the ankle and told me about
> it when I was a little girl. That was quite the scandal too. Young
> girls have always grown up "too fast". Young girls haven't changed
> nor have the times. Only the fashions and hairstyles have changed.
Hmm...little girls always want to be older. Older girls want to be younger,
that wasn't the point. My point is that over the years, it has gone beyond
the fashion and carried over into attitude and actions. I'm sorry, I just
don't
think 15 year old girls should be wearing skirts to their cootchies and low
cut tops reavealing their almost cleavege. It adds to the mysogyny that has
plagued hip-hop for a *very* long time as I'm sure you have seen. (Of
course you do, you've been around.) And the mysogyny seems to be
affecting boys at a younger and younger age which does not bode well with
me.
> >You don't think
> >there's a problem with the images of hip-hop on TV and movies as
> >"gangster," "thuggish," overall just shitty and not at all
> >representative of the culture of HIP-HOP as a whole?
>
> My images of hip-hop do not solely include "ganster and thuggish."
> and never did. That must be all you choose to see.
Rad carefully. These are the images on TV * movies that *I* have a problem
with. I see more than that, which is why *I* have a problem with it.
> Btw, one of my mom's fav songs was called Stagger Lee by Lloyd Price.
> It's about a man who murders someone over a gambling debt. I also
> remember that one of her fav albums was Millie Jackson's "Caught Up".
> Cussing and inappropriate material all through it and I listened to it
> all the time growing up. Here's a little tip.......it's how you raise
> your kids and the examples you set for them in your life that has the
> most influence on how they turn out. Not what they warch on TV or
> what they listen to on the radio. I'm not saying that you shouldn't
> use judgement in censoring what they watch during the early years, but
> for the most part, TV/radio is only a problem if you're allowing the
> TV/radio to raise them instead of you being there to do your job.
Granted a parent does have their responsibilities to raise their child. But
as we have all seen, sometimes, that's just not enough. I've seen it happen.
Parents can to always control tehir children. This is getting a little off
topic, so if you'd like to discuss this in a seperate thread, I'm more than
happy.
> Contrary to popular beliief, I doubt that cleaning up hip-hop will
> help to clean up life. It's the other way around. Clean up life and
> the art that's spawned from that life will change as well.
But we have to start somewhere, don't we? If art imitates life then we have
to start by cleaning up our lives then the art will follow. And that's my
point. We have to start with us as individuals.
> > It doesn't bother
> >you in the least that the other elements of the culture are almost
> >completely ignored by people who consider themselves "heads" not to
> >mention the rest of the industry and the media?
> >
> I've posted on this before. If you care, you can google me for my
> views on "hip-hop culture".
gladly.
> >You accept them? Well, if that's the case then maybe you should really
> >just stick to watching MTV and wearing your headphones in the corner
> >because we are here to discuss.
> >
> This sounds rather arrogant. You really have no idea who you are
> speaking to. It also doesn't seem as if you are here to "discuss".
> At least not when it come to me.
Aren't we discussing now? And that was my agenda really. And not to point
fingers, but I believe you were the one who was the first to tell someone to
go away and told us you like to listen to music with your headphones in the
corner.
> >Wow. I am amazed. Thank you for allowing me to be here. And I am so
> >disturbed at myself that I wanna run and cry. Boo fucking hoo.
> >
> >You should really understand that you are just as bad as the people
> >who say "fuck hip-hop" because you fail to see the beauty in the
> >diversity in it all.
>
> Accepting it wholeheartedly, the good, the bad, the ugly and the grimy
> IS part of seeing the beauty and diversity in it all.
I understand where you're coming from with this. But then is it fair to say
that we have to accept the injustices of the world just because we want to
live? I embrace all of hip-hop but it does not mean I should not want to
change the things that bring out the bad in people.
> >You just go along with what ever you are told to
> >accept. Honey...that is not what this culture has been built on.
> >Hip-hop exists because people want to be heard.
> >
> More arrogance.
I know. I get that way sometimes when it comes to hip-hop because I love it
so.
> >> I just wish you'd stop being so wishy-washy. Make up your mind
> >> already..........and get out of the doorway while you stand there and
> >> decide. It's rude.
> >
> >You really are closed minded, aren't you.
>
> Far from it.
I appologize for the statement. It was low and does not pertain to this
discussion.
> > I'm so sorry about that. You
> >don't know me, you don't know the extent to which I have been involved
> >with this culture.
>
> Actually, I'm familiar w/ your screen name. I've been reading these
> boards for quite a while. Much longer than I've been posting and I
> have been posting for a few years now.. I really don't care about
> how much of a "hip-hopper" you think you are. Folks tend to come and
> go. The music is what I care about.
Still, my screen name is not me. There's plenty that I've done and am a part
of that does not make it here. I don't call myself a hip-hopper. I'm just
me.
See, the culture is what I care about. All of it. And regardless of how many
times I come and go on this board, I always will.
> >I love this culture more than you could ever
> >understand and I will say fuck hip-hop, but I will not leave it
> >behind. I say fuck hip-hop and do what is in my power to change the
> >things within my grasp because that is what it's about. If you don't
> >care about what's going on in it, then you really don't have a place
> >here.
> >
>
> Ummm-hmmmm.....how long are you planning to stick around for this
> time?
If you must know, Friday when I go out of town for the holidays. My return
will depend on my schedule after the holidays.
And I don't believe that my length of stay here is indicitive of my
dedication to the culture. Excuse me if I have a life outside of RMHH.
> >>
齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,��齯漱�虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯�> >
> >And by this I can see that you are young and impetuous.
> >
>
> You were able to determine this from a banner in a sig on usenet? I
> don't think I'm the one w/ the closed mind.....
Again, I appologize for that statement. It was low and personal.
> "Bag lady....you gon hurt your back. Carryin all them bags like
> that....."
My personal baggage has to ties with this arguement. But thanks for the
quote.
Thank you for your participation in this discussion. It was all I wanted. I
have never claimed to know it all, although it may seem that I do. My
opinions have changed over the years but the opinions I have are strong. I
stick by them, but I feel that my growth as a person has because I like to
discuss things with people and hear their side. I feel that that is the
epitomy of open mindedness, willing to listen to someone who has a
completely different view point than you. And yes, sometimes I start shit
just to get a rise out of people or to open up discussion. I'm bad, yes I
know. Thus the "fuck hip-hop" statment. But if you read my earlier post on
it before i got to you, I started to castrate the author but Sauce cut his
balls off before I could.
BSE
mochas...@notsohotmail.com (mochaspresso) wrote:
> >So you don't think there's anything wrong with most of mainstream
> >hip-hop marketed towards young impressionable youth and young girls
> >are dressing like they're going on 25 rather than 15?
>
> I was born in 1969. I saw pics of my mom from the early and mid 60's.
> She wore these things called micro mini's. They were quite the rage
> and also quite the scandal back in those days. My great grandma
> actually remembered her mother telling her about the times when women
> first started raising their hemlines above the ankle and told me about
> it when I was a little girl. That was quite the scandal too. Young
> girls have always grown up "too fast". Young girls haven't changed
> nor have the times. Only the fashions and hairstyles have changed.
Mocha is my poster of the week this week. See here how she thoroughly
tells it like it is with a charming finesse.
> Btw, one of my mom's fav songs was called Stagger Lee by Lloyd Price.
> It's about a man who murders someone over a gambling debt. I also
> remember that one of her fav albums was Millie Jackson's "Caught Up".
> Cussing and inappropriate material all through it and I listened to it
> all the time growing up. Here's a little tip.......it's how you raise
> your kids and the examples you set for them in your life that has the
> most influence on how they turn out. Not what they warch on TV or
> what they listen to on the radio. I'm not saying that you shouldn't
> use judgement in censoring what they watch during the early years, but
> for the most part, TV/radio is only a problem if you're allowing the
> TV/radio to raise them instead of you being there to do your job.
and here where she does the little-done thing of actually pointing out
that many of us grew up with similar things in the media and turned out
fine young humans because of our brains and parenting. How very unusual to
see this written. Another one is videogames, they dont make people gun
killers, guns do!
> Contrary to popular beliief, I doubt that cleaning up hip-hop will
> help to clean up life. It's the other way around. Clean up life and
> the art that's spawned from that life will change as well.
oh yes oh yes. can I call you teacher?
> >Wow. I am amazed. Thank you for allowing me to be here. And I am so
> >disturbed at myself that I wanna run and cry. Boo fucking hoo.
> >
> >You should really understand that you are just as bad as the people
> >who say "fuck hip-hop" because you fail to see the beauty in the
> >diversity in it all.
>
> Accepting it wholeheartedly, the good, the bad, the ugly and the grimy
> IS part of seeing the beauty and diversity in it all.
wordy word.
> >> I just wish you'd stop being so wishy-washy. Make up your mind
> >> already..........and get out of the doorway while you stand there and
> >> decide. It's rude.
> >
> >You really are closed minded, aren't you.
>
> Far from it.
word word word
> > I'm so sorry about that. You
> >don't know me, you don't know the extent to which I have been involved
> >with this culture.
>
> Actually, I'm familiar w/ your screen name. I've been reading these
> boards for quite a while. Much longer than I've been posting and I
> have been posting for a few years now.. I really don't care about
> how much of a "hip-hopper" you think you are. Folks tend to come and
> go. The music is what I care about.
and a word.
> >I love this culture more than you could ever
> >understand and I will say fuck hip-hop, but I will not leave it
> >behind. I say fuck hip-hop and do what is in my power to change the
> >things within my grasp because that is what it's about. If you don't
> >care about what's going on in it, then you really don't have a place
> >here.
> >
>
> Ummm-hmmmm.....how long are you planning to stick around for this
> time?
Ooooh!
> >>
齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯漱�虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯�> >
> >And by this I can see that you are young and impetuous.
> >
>
> You were able to determine this from a banner in a sig on usenet? I
> don't think I'm the one w/ the closed mind.....
>
> "Bag lady....you gon hurt your back. Carryin all them bags like
> that....."
and a final word.
BSE (well impressed, only I, Fatty and Goldenchylde should be allowed to
be so arrogant as Tre there)
Tre' Boogie
> oh yes oh yes. can I call you teacher?
Isn't she a teacher already?
> BSE (well impressed, only I, Fatty and Goldenchylde should be allowed to
> be so arrogant as Tre there)
I don't think so. Don't be sexist. And you're forgetting Nesta & Akiem &
O-Dub &......I believe they have been far more arrogant than I.
Tre' Boogs
---Pete---
you're
> > confusing it with Back To The Grill.
> >
> > ---Pete---
>
> you are correct. I'm getting my lines mixed up.
Only posting cos I had the exact same argument the other day and got it
wrong!!
---Pete---
Nesta
>Date: Tue, Dec 17, 2002 12:11 AM
>> BSE (well impressed, only I, Fatty and Goldenchylde should be allowed
>to
>> be so arrogant as Tre there)
>I don't think so. Don't be sexist. And you're forgetting Nesta & Akiem &
>O-Dub &......I believe they have been far more arrogant than I.
get off the dick. you wish you had enough juice to be allowed to say my name
in here.
...nesta...
Most of you can't even comprehend what I am saying to you
Even in my human form the message I'm relaying
One good thing about music
When it hits you feel no pain
Tre' Boogie
"Nesta" <nesta...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021217003501...@mb-cg.aol.com...
> >From: "Tre' Boogie" funkye...@sbcglobal.net
> >Date: Tue, Dec 17, 2002 12:11 AM
>
> >> BSE (well impressed, only I, Fatty and Goldenchylde should be allowed
> >to
> >> be so arrogant as Tre there)
>
> >I don't think so. Don't be sexist. And you're forgetting Nesta & Akiem &
> >O-Dub &......I believe they have been far more arrogant than I.
>
> get off the dick. you wish you had enough juice to be allowed to say my
name
> in here.
Thus the arrogance. And juice isn't what I'm here for...lest we forget who
asked me to return.
Tre' Boogie
Fatboy Roberts
> > get off the dick. you wish you had enough juice to be allowed to say my
> name
> > in here.
>
> Thus the arrogance. And juice isn't what I'm here for...lest we forget who
> asked me to return.
>
Vote begging campaigning chumpy sonofabitch...
You're out there recruiting old heads who had managed to actually GRADUATE
TO HAVING A LIFE, getting away from this nitpicking knitting circle-- and
for what? FOR AN ONLINE POPULARITY CONTEST, SUCKER.
I'm surprised you weren't emailing kids with spam flyers, nessie-poo.
Fatboy
Nesta
> Vote begging campaigning chumpy sonofabitch...
>
> You're out there recruiting old heads who had managed to actually GRADUATE
> TO HAVING A LIFE, getting away from this nitpicking knitting circle-- and
> for what? FOR AN ONLINE POPULARITY CONTEST, SUCKER.
whoa whoa whoa...chill on that shit...
admittedly i did tell sauce to come back and throw me a vote. but
look, he's stayed around for a while, and isn't that for the
betterment of rmhh?
but i did no such thing w/ tre boogie. she just popped back in here
like 2 days ago! and not at my request. i just mentioned to her that
i had been back in here, and occasionally there was some decent
discussion goin on, and she got all intrigued, checked it out, and
then got mad that she was re-addicted.
the record must be clear on my exact level of herbdom.
-nesta
A to the L
<hesbac...@fuckyou.com> said:
>Only posting cos I had the exact same argument the other day and got it
>wrong!!
this is where you say - "thanks A to the L you sexy hunk of a man"
PIECES
A to the L
"You can put wings on a pig, but that doesn't make it an eagle."
TreBoogie
Nah...I wasn't coerced into the voting thing. It was more of a
nostalgic kind of suckering that I fell for...and he said all the cool
kids were back.
Tre'
QUIZ!
its a crazy busy time of year and honeslty, things arn't looking too good in
terms of me having much time in the near future to post a detailed reply.
please be assured that I did read your whole post, and appreciated what u
said. here are some brief thoughts in response, but I don't think i'll be
able to reply point by point as we were doing before... at least not for a
week or two.
I think perhaps in my attempts at making a point I placed a little too much
emphasis on arguing against the necessity of innovation. I certainly think
innovation can be a good and even a necessary thing to keep an art fresh and
"alive", I think I should sum my point up by saying that while innovation is
an important component, often times I think people place just a little too
much emphasis on the imprtance of innovation versus other aspects of
art/music. Thats all I was really trying to get at. I probably went
overboard with my objection.
Just a thought: If a nation had its greatest leaders 100 years ago, and its
leaders today are men/woman who are doing their own thing, but are not as
"great" as but aspire to be like the leaders of years gone by, does that
make that nation dead? I don't think so, it just means its gotten older, its
got heroes, and perhaps the "golden age" is over. Much like the U.S.A.
today... or Canada for that matter. Are either of these countries dying
just because our leaders are not hailed to be as "great" as some of their
forefathers were? Just a parallel that came to mind.. maybe its not entirely
appropriate to comparing to an art form... but still... worth bringing up.
To me I will concede that, while I don't think we are as near the end of
hiphop's lifecyle as you suggest we are, I agree that the golden age of
hiphop is coming to a close, if it hasn't already done so.
But as I've stated before, I beleive that as long as there are artists who
are creating within the art form, the art form is not dead. It may only be a
shadow of its former self, but its alive.
Hip hop is changing, and I think us "old schoolers" can't really identify
with a lot of the new emcees, flows or sounds, coming out these. But I think
many of them are still very inspirational to younger cats, and are making
their own mark in this art called hiphop. In fact many of them I think us ld
schoolers are a bit biased against and we don't want to accept the impact
they are having - as we cling our copies of midnight marauders closer and
closer to our chests. Some of the cats I'm feeling, some of them I'm not.
But the fact that they exist, that innovation is stil happening, that cats
from the "underground" like Mr. Lif to middle ground artists like Common
doing his thing, to Nelly rocking mics in stadiums, all doing new things
with this art form and inspiring legions of kids to pick up mics and buy
turntables in the process.
Watching this happen, seeing my city get a "hiphop" radio station finally
only just last year, and seeing how it transformed and grew the hiphop
landscape of thise city and how such radio stations are growing the hiphop
scene in Canada exponentially. These kinds of things all tell me that the
golden age might be over... but the art form is alive and well (though with
its fair share of diseases).
Heck, this year in Vancouver we have more local live hiphop performances
(local and out of town artists) per week than ever before, and more large
concerts with sellout turnouts for groups like J5 etc. How could a genre
that is dead or dying be drawing more people than ever before to participate
in it?
I know this isn't an all together scholaly assesment of the lifecyle/status
of the art form... but like you said, what we think about hiphop is largely
just personal opinion anyways. :-)
Gotta run man.. got a million things to take care of (this is why I
dissappeared from RMHH in the first place :) ....
peace!
QUIZ
www.nextra.ca
"applesauce" <applesauceTAST...@greasykidincorporated.com> wrote
in message news:ottK9.4793$MV5.4...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > mainstream media
> > coverage has nothing to do with the life/death status of hiphop.
>
> agreed. i tried to call that out in my post too...hope it came through.
it did
> > > the key considerations here, for me at least, are:
> > >
> > > -dopeness to crap ratio (objective assessment -- personal taste aside)
> > > -rate of innovation
> >
> > Innovations is nice to have in an art, but to me its not a crucial
> > component.
> > To me, hiphop is not about innovation, and I would most
> > certainly not judge its "life or death" status based on the rate of
> > innovation. Hip hop to me is about self expression
> > with a dope beat, a dope rhyme, and having fun.
>
> yeah, i can't knock the validity of that stance. hip hop is very
> much about those things. but i also think that's a pretty simplified
> way of examining the health of an art form, and trying to identify
> where it stands in its life cycle.
> let me just preface this by saying that i'm not trying to change your
> mind here, or sway you (or anybody) to agree with my assertion
> that hip hop is almost artistically dead. its the conclusion i've come
> to after a lot of careful analysis and invested thought...and it's based
> on the criteria i'm using to evaluate the health of the genre.
> (innovation, outstanding individual achievements, dope vs. crap
> ratio, etc.).
>
> i'm not trying to impose my key performance indicators on others.
> its up to each person to arrive at these conclusions on their
> own...i just ask that people think this stuff through thoroughly.
> that said, i have to disagree with your view on the importance of
> innovation in art, and also in hop hop.
> maybe the term "innovation" doesn't properly capture what i'm
> trying to convey, either. its a mix of doing something that hasn't
> been done before, exhibiting creativity, not just being stagnant
> and recreating a bunch of cookie cutter crap (even if it is very
> self expressive).
>
> think of it in a battle context. if you're battling another emcee,
> are you gonna win the battle if you just copy what he did? if
> you're only as dope as he is? if you're just self expressive?
> you went second!
>
> what kinds of figures does this sub-culture revere? folks
> like Rakim, Kane, Chuck D, Tribe, De La, KRS, the piklz,
> Dig P's, Primo, Pete Rock, etc. etc. folks that broke new
> ground...were influential...and left this shit better than they
> found it.
>.
>
> and that's really a super key piece of this puzzle for me, too --
> influence.
>
> in most artistic circles, the value of an artist is largely determined by
> examining their influence. how many people tried to be like them.
> movements they set in motion. shit like that.
So basically from what you're saying the art form is defined by those
"heroes" and once they are gone an all that is left is people who are
inspired by that person then the art form is dead? The people who were
inspired mean nothing to the "life" of an art?
> my beef with the lack of innovation in present day jazz and hip hop
> can be better conveyed with a question:
>
> who are emcees and alto saxophonists 10 years from now going
> to aspire to be like?
>
> black eyed peas...or tribe?
> dilated peoples....or gangstarr?
> ja rule...or tupac?
> jay z.....or rakim?
>
> > Innovation is a Western ideal and obsession that most other cultures and
> > societies throughout history have had a healthy fear of. They relied on
> > tradition.... repeating the same formulas for hundreds if not thousands
of
> > years.. and those formulas meant a great deal to the people who
maintained
> > them.
>
> this is a super interesting counter point and one i've never seen anybody
> bring up when i'm having this 'hip hop is gonna die' argument. i'd
> need to give this some more thought...but my initial reaction is that
> hip hop is a western (and specifically, american) invention and we
> almost have to examine it in a western context. i was born and
> raised in a capitalistic society and i guess that aesthetic tends to
> bleed into just about everything....even the way i evaluate art.
>
> > To me, hiphop can rely on the good old boom-bap with scratches and a
> > dope emcee formula for the rest of time and I'll still love it as long
as
> > the artists put their heart and soul into what they are doing.
>
> right on. and that's a personal thing...and i'm stoked for you for that.
> i just have a hard time subscribing to it.
>
> > I could care
> > less if people are "innovating the art form" with every record they put
> > out.
>
> to me, innovation is necessary to keep my interest. when i hear the
> same ol, same ol, again and again...it just gets boring.
>
> case in point: the new jurrasic 5 record.
>
> i'll be the first to admit, from limited listens mind you, that it's a
well
> put together record. the flows are respectable, the beats are moving,
> time & thought went into the lyrics. its everything a hip hop record
> "should be". but its also kind of boring for me to listen to because
> everything on there has been done before.
>
> i appreciate "what's golden" for what it is, and i'll dance to that shit
> when the dj throws it on, but in the back of my head i'm thinking,
> "you know, that's a pretty good primo impersonation."
>
> its hard for me to listen to and enjoy a replica when i could be
> enjoying the original (step in the arena or something).
>
> ok, so i'm not saying j5 shouldn't make this last album. i think
> they're actually doing young hip hop listeners a service by bringing
> this sound to hip hop's landscape in '02. i'm just saying, looking
> at hip hop's history, this is a much less significant record than
> step in the arena (not really a good record to compare it to)
> or, more appropriately, midnight marauders.
>
> > But even if we did agree on your condition of innovation I
> > would still argue there has been, and continues to be, plenty of
> > innovation in recent hiphop.
>
> yeah, i think there's still limited pockets of innovation. i just think
> its slowed dramatically, and the blips on the radar are much smaller
> than ever before.
>
> and this is a natural thing. i don't think hip hop can avoid hitting this
> creative brick wall....read my comments about the pioneers and
> the field of fresh snow in my other post in this thread for more
> on this.
>
> > For example, most hiphop from 2000-2003sounds
> > nothing like
> > hiphop from the mid nineties
>
> i think 97/98 was the last major shift. i think we're still pretty much
> in that same era that biggie ushered in with the release of "life after
> death". imho.
>
> of course there are 100 splinter movements happening all over the
> map from dirty south to white boy square hop...but i don't think
> there have been any major innovations in at least 3 or 4 years
> (some of el producto's recent work not withstanding).
>
> > Also how
> > synths and live instruments are being brought into the mix and people
are
> > trying new things and straying away from sampling.
>
> maybe this is a personal thing, but i think sampling is what gave hip
> hop alot of its original appeal. the infusion of electric drums and
> keyboards, as well as live instruments, where just a few notes are
> sampled independently...its robbed hip hop production of alot of
> "richness". alot of those early 90s records are THICK. the
> sound is almost "warm". because the sample isn't just of one
> instrument playing a few notes in a booth...its of a group of
> motherfuckers BLOWING like their life depended on it. shit
> like that.
>
> > Who was rhyming like
> > Nelly does 10 years ago?
>
> i dunno, i've never really found nelly to be all that innovative, but
> then i don't pay a whole lot of close attention to his rhyme
> schemes or anything.
>
> i think most people will agree that flows in general have come
> a long way since the mid 80s and even early 90s (i was listening
> to edutainment the other day and some of krs' schemes are
> almost laughable now -- with all respect due, of course)...but
> i don't think that's reflective of any major innovative undercurrent
> bubbling in '02.
>
> > Are you sure you really feel the rate of innovation has gone down,
> > or is it just that as you get older you find you don't relate to the
> > latest innovations?
>
> i've given this careful thought and i think its the former.
>
> a question.
>
> what's the last album you heard that really just KNOCKED YOU
> ON YOUR ASS?
>
> where you walked away from it like, holy shit, that was something
> special. this is a big deal. this is gonna get some major play for
> a while to come.
>
> maybe i'm too picky or overly critical, but the last album that
> registered like this for me was A Book of Human Language.
> i knew the first time i listened to it that the album was a fucking
> masterpiece. and i still feel that way.
>
> and that was 98.
>
> and i've listened to and purchased A BUNCH of lp's and 12's
> since '98. not saying there haven't been any good albums
> or singles released -- quite the contrary. i just feel quality
> is down across the board, folks have half the fire and hunger
> they used to, and the really stellar achievements are fewer and
> further between.
>
> and granted, i'm kind of screwed in this regard, as i've been buying
> new hip hop records since 1982/83. i have a much larger body
> of music to compare and contrast each new record to than some
> kid who just jumped in the game a couple years ago....but
> even still.
>
> i was in my early 20s when the indie wave started to hit
> hip hop in 95/96, and even though the 92/93 sound was
> still my favorite shit, i immediately recognized that something
> major was happening in hip hop at the time. there was
> a new movement...and it was significant.
>
> that's the last major wave of innovation i've seen.
>
> > Dude I hope I'm not striking a chord of being offensive here, please
dont'
> > take this the wrong way, and I'm sorry to hear about your loss, but
since
> > you make the comparison... I'ma build on it: If you could go and spend
a
> > night with your mother right now, have a conversation with her, give her
a
> > hug, etc, she would be alive right?
>
> hmmm. first off, don't sweat it -- i'm a full grown, well adjusted
> man and can definitely discuss this one with a level head.
>
> second off.....hypothetically, yes. but she is in fact no longer among
> the living...so, realistically, no.
>
> > The fact is, so far as I see it, if I
> > so choose I can still go and do these things (metaphorically) with any
of
> > the above mentioned art forms, including hiphop.
>
> right on, and this again calls back to our highly divergent (and valid)
> opinions of what constitutes a living art form, what constitutes a
> dying one, and what constitutes a dead one.
>
> > Jazz is not dead, its just not the same as it used to be...
> > its not in its golden age anymore... but that doesn't mean its dead.
>
> another difference of opinion here.
>
> cause basically, given current technology, music lends itself well to
> recorded mediums. so its relatively easy to capture and keep for
> decades and decades. we can go back and listen to what was
> made, find old stuff we never knew about, etc.
>
> further, every type of music ever created is still performed today
> in at least some limited capacity. classical, big band, jazz,
> celtic folk music, etc.
>
> but in my eyes, just like all artistic movements, everything named
> above exists on kind of a bell cure trajectory. starts off small, gains
> popularity, significant achievements happen, PLATEAU,
> homogenization, falling action....."death".
>
> people can still perform that music...and even come up with new
> original pieces. but that doesn't mean the shit is alive (to me).
>
> think of another example from the art world. lets pick impressionism.
> look up impressionism in any art history book and it'll give you some
> concrete dates on the life of that movement. when it started, when
> it trailed off, who the significant contributors were, the seminal
> works, etc.
>
> i'm sure people still paint impressionistic pictures today. somebody
> may even produce a "better" painting than what's widely considered
> to be the best impressionistic painting ever (play along). but that
> doesn't mean the movement has been reborn....or that this new
> work has even 1/100th of the significance the original did.
>
> > I understand where you are coming from, and I feel you, there's plenty
of
> > truth in what you say........ but I want balance that by saying that
the
> > last jazz night I was at all the performers were black except for one if
> > memory serves, and they were
> > all extremely talented and obviously loved what they were doing with
every
> > ounce of their heart.
>
> yeah, when i speak in absolute terms like i did describing jazz as white
> guys with pony tails....i'm not trying to say that that's ALL of it. or
> ALL that's left. i'm really just speaking in relative terms -- percentages
> and what not, based on my experiences and perceptions. i'm also
> a big believer in the exception that makes the rule. ;->
>
> > 2. I think there are still plenty of jazz musicians who bring their
> > own epxeriences, soul and character to the music, even if they're
> > playing the same 'ol classic songs,
>
> the key question for me is: whose standards are the jazz musicians
> still blowing in 2050 going to be playing? folks making original
> music right now....or miles/monk/parker/gillespie/duke/etc.?
>
> > What rappers have done with their money has no bearing on the "life"
> > status of hiphop.
>
> agreed. i was trying to break out those other three sub-issues
> i identified from the alive vs. dead conversation.
>
> > Some cats these days act like Rakim wasn't wearing jewelry,
> > doing videos in mansions he didn't own and driving cars he
> > couldn't afford. :-) They need to pull out their old Rapcity video
> > tapes and check their facts :).
>
> troooooooooo...
>
> > Secondly, had heads even seen anything like Cannibal Ox
> > before they dropped? No. Were heads ready for Electric Circus?
> > No. Were heads ready for Black Eyed Peas? No. Is Mr Lif just
> > spouting the same styles we heard in 1995, no. is Blackalicious
> > sounding anything like anything from the 90's? No. Is Jean
> > Grae coming with some typical same old thing rap music? No.
> >
> > The list goes on and on and on and on....
>
> i'd disagree with including BEP, and i haven't heard electric
> circus yet (though the comments i've been seeing on here are
> definitely encouraging), but again, i'm talking aggregates and
> overall percentages here. the 30,000 foot view. you can
> find lots of anecdotal evidence, and i'll grant you that there
> are still innovative pockets within hip hop (i've contended
> that all along)...but i think i've properly explained my views
> on this subject by now....so i'll stop 'splaining.
>
> > As I see it, peeps are just blinded by the power of the commercial rap
> > industry right now. There are a lot more MC Hammers and Vanilla Ice's
> > out there.... a lot more commercial hiphop acts... a lot more commercial
> > hiphop media... so it makes things look more depressing than they
actually
> > are.
>
> i think the most detrimental impact mainstream exposure has had
> on hip hop as a whole has been a realignment of the reasons
> why cat's get in the game.
>
> of course folks have always rapped about having money, and getting
> money, as long as the artform has existed; that's a function of
> history and demographics. but when pioneers started cutting
> records in the early 80s, there really wasn't any potential for
> them to blow up and get super big time -- major label backing,
> heavy daytime radio rotation, mtv, award shows, bookoo bucks,
> etc. etc. might get some local fame, an ego boost or some
> pussy...but nothing like what a record deal promises you today.
> and i think that held true all the way on up into the early/mid 90s.
>
> but at some point there was a shift, and hip hop came to represent
> a vehicle to really get paid. so now you open the flood gates for
> a gang of folks to jump into hip hop for financial reasons, as opposed
> to love and respect for the artform, and a desire to make a contribution.
>
> i'm not going to say everybody in it for the funds is devoid of love
> and talent...i just think this shifting of the motivational paradigm has
> significantly impacted the quality and "heart" of hip hop, on the
> whole.
>
> > > no, i don't think we can or should. i think the world people needs
> > > people to always be fighting the good cause. and the thing is, they
> > > can't realize that they aren't going to win....cause if they did, the
> > > whole thing would go to shit.
> >
> > But you think they're not going to win, you'd just prefer if they didn't
> > realise it?
>
> pretty much. all goes back to my undying belief and faith in group
> dynamics theory.
>
> 15-20% of the people are ALWAYS going to control 80-85% of
> the wealth.
>
> elected officials are ALWAYS going to be corrupt (power corrupts
> all). you can have a revolution, and overthrow 'em, and the incoming
> regime will be just as corrupt within a matter of 5 years.
>
> a small percentage of people are always going to fill leadership roles
> and a large majority of folk are always going to be (again, relatively)
> "deaf, dumb and blind" sheep (i aint no 5%er, but they do get some
> shit right).
>
> > A most enoyable discussion - one of the most enjoyable on this
> > newsgroup in a long time.
>
> agreed!
>
> > Thanks for your thoughts dude... hope mine make some sense..
>
> totally, and likewise. got me ol' tinker clicking for a minute...
>
> peacers,
> -applesauce
>
>
>
>
>
>
mochaspresso
<funkye...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>Hmm...little girls always want to be older. Older girls want to be younger,
>that wasn't the point. My point is that over the years, it has gone beyond
>the fashion and carried over into attitude and actions. I'm sorry, I just
>don't
>think 15 year old girls should be wearing skirts to their cootchies and low
>cut tops reavealing their almost cleavege. It adds to the mysogyny that has
>plagued hip-hop for a *very* long time as I'm sure you have seen. (Of
>course you do, you've been around.) And the mysogyny seems to be
>affecting boys at a younger and younger age which does not bode well with
>me.
>
I'll agree that there is mysogyny in hip-hop.....but mysogyny isn't
solely a "hip-hop problem". It exists throughout the world and in
many different cultures. I think it has more to do w/ what those boys
see in their home life rather than what girls are wearing or media's
portrayal of hiip-hop.
...as an aside.....1/2 of the boys in my class are spanish and listen
primarily to salsa. I hate to sound as if I'm stereotyping, but from
observation, it seems the spanish boys are the most violent and
abusive (language) toward other girls in the class. The black
boys.....who watch BET and listen primarily to "mysogynistic
hip-hop/r&b".... are often the ones jumping in to defend the girls.
If hip-hop is adding to mysogyny as you claim, why is this happening?
>
>Aren't we discussing now? And that was my agenda really. And not to point
>fingers, but I believe you were the one who was the first to tell someone to
>go away and told us you like to listen to music with your headphones in the
>corner.
>
Someone said fuck hip-hop. I said well there's the door, you're
welcome to use it. To be honest, I'm bored w/ the "discussions" and
the critiques and the overall negativity from the fair-weather bunch.
There is so much hip-hop to choose from and folks still find something
to complain about. Put that energy into finding what you like and
supporting it. It's like an old man complaining that the local
supermarket doesn't carry a wide enough variety of fish. The butcher
tells him that there is a big fish market right across the street, but
the old man says that he refuses to go and insists on shopping for
fish in the supermarket.
>>
>> Accepting it wholeheartedly, the good, the bad, the ugly and the grimy
>> IS part of seeing the beauty and diversity in it all.
>
>I understand where you're coming from with this. But then is it fair to say
>that we have to accept the injustices of the world just because we want to
>live? I embrace all of hip-hop but it does not mean I should not want to
>change the things that bring out the bad in people.
>
I don't equate music to real life injustices. Music is entertainment.
I also don't believe that music brings out the bad in sane and
rational people.
>> >
>> >You really are closed minded, aren't you.
>>
>> Far from it.
>
>I appologize for the statement. It was low and does not pertain to this
>discussion.
>
It's also not true.....but apology accepted.
>And I don't believe that my length of stay here is indicitive of my
>dedication to the culture.
True..........but it probably is a better indication of it than using
the banner in my sig to assess my personality. It goes to show just
how absurd the criterias we are using to judge each other....and our
respective love for the music....really are.
> Excuse me if I have a life outside of RMHH.
>
I'm sure most of the people who post here on a regular basis do as
well. Myself included. It's just something that I've noticed. The
"fuck hip-hoppers" are also the ones who float in and out. They
disappear for a while, then come back w/ a critique of what's wrong w/
the music and the culture. Then, they are gone again. The regulars
here, annoying as they are, do at least seem to have a genuine love
for the music.
mochaspresso
b...@thepillowfromyourheadandputabookinitukseen.com (BSE) wrote:
>oh yes oh yes. can I call you teacher?
>
You're not saying it right, though......It's "TEACHA, TEACHA!!!"
(no " er " at the end and you have to say it more than once in
repitition)......and you also have to bounce in the seat waving your
hand frantically going "OOOH OOOH OOOH!!!"
....you also have to occasionally sulk and throw the book when I don't
call on you.
齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯漱�虜,齯滌`偕爻,虜,齯�
BSE
Boogie" <funkye...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> "BSE" <b...@thepillowfromyourheadandputabookinitukseen.com> wrote in message
> news:bse-171202...@host213-122-95-24.in-addr.btopenworld.com...
> > oh yes oh yes. can I call you teacher?
>
> Isn't she a teacher already?
yeah but Im not on her register.
> > BSE (well impressed, only I, Fatty and Goldenchylde should be allowed to
> > be so arrogant as Tre there)
>
> I don't think so. Don't be sexist.
Im not being. If theres three most arrogant people on here chances are
statistically theyre all gonna be blokes. If I included you as token woman
it wouldnt be a real top three any more no?
>And you're forgetting Nesta & Akiem &
> O-Dub &......I believe they have been far more arrogant than I.
Not Nesta, Akiem is joking or right, and O-Dub is a spangle.
BSE
BSE
Boogie" <funkye...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >My great grandma
> > actually remembered her mother telling her about the times when women
> > first started raising their hemlines above the ankle and told me about
> > it when I was a little girl. That was quite the scandal too. Young
> > girls have always grown up "too fast". Young girls haven't changed
> > nor have the times. Only the fashions and hairstyles have changed.
>
> Hmm...little girls always want to be older. Older girls want to be younger,
> that wasn't the point. My point is that over the years, it has gone beyond
> the fashion and carried over into attitude and actions. I'm sorry, I just
> don't
> think 15 year old girls should be wearing skirts to their cootchies and low
> cut tops reavealing their almost cleavege. It adds to the mysogyny that has
> plagued hip-hop for a *very* long time as I'm sure you have seen. (Of
> course you do, you've been around.) And the mysogyny seems to be
> affecting boys at a younger and younger age which does not bode well with
> me.
Fair enough but that is happening in areas that Hiphop does not penetrate,
worldwide, so how is it a hiphop thing?
bse
BSE
mochas...@notsohotmail.com (mochaspresso) wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 04:55:17 +0000 (UTC),
> b...@thepillowfromyourheadandputabookinitukseen.com (BSE) wrote:
>
> >oh yes oh yes. can I call you teacher?
> >
>
> You're not saying it right, though......It's "TEACHA, TEACHA!!!"
>
> (no " er " at the end and you have to say it more than once in
> repitition)......and you also have to bounce in the seat waving your
> hand frantically going "OOOH OOOH OOOH!!!"
In england we say "MISS MISS MISS" or "SIR SIR"
> ....you also have to occasionally sulk and throw the book when I don't
> call on you.
You have books in your school?
bse
Tre' Boogie
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 04:48:17 GMT, "Tre' Boogie"
> <funkye...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I'll agree that there is mysogyny in hip-hop.....but mysogyny isn't
> solely a "hip-hop problem". It exists throughout the world and in
> many different cultures. I think it has more to do w/ what those boys
> see in their home life rather than what girls are wearing or media's
I never said it wasn't a problem outside of hip-hop. But since this is what
I know and the scene I'm in, this is where I (we) have to start. You gotta
start off someplace.
> ...as an aside.....1/2 of the boys in my class are spanish and listen
> primarily to salsa. I hate to sound as if I'm stereotyping, but from
> observation, it seems the spanish boys are the most violent and
> abusive (language) toward other girls in the class. The black
> boys.....who watch BET and listen primarily to "mysogynistic
> hip-hop/r&b".... are often the ones jumping in to defend the girls.
> If hip-hop is adding to mysogyny as you claim, why is this happening?
Again, I never claimed this to be soley a problem in the culture. Hip-hop is
a sub-culture, thus reflecting other societal ills. Everything affects
everything, it's all connected, but again, you gotta start someplace.
> >Aren't we discussing now? And that was my agenda really. And not to point
> >fingers, but I believe you were the one who was the first to tell someone
to
> >go away and told us you like to listen to music with your headphones in
the
> >corner.
> >
>
> Someone said fuck hip-hop. I said well there's the door, you're
> welcome to use it. To be honest, I'm bored w/ the "discussions" and
> the critiques and the overall negativity from the fair-weather bunch.
> There is so much hip-hop to choose from and folks still find something
> to complain about. Put that energy into finding what you like and
> supporting it.
Supporting, participating, encouraging. That's what I've been doing for many
years...including discussing issues that do affect people in hip-hop. And
again, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to raise the bar a
little. I think that's the only way a culture and the people can evolve and
grow. If you aren't growing, then what are you doing? Agreed that there are
various forms of hip-hop music and each serves a purpose. And there are
people on all sides of the spectrum that have different ideals and
perspectives. Is it wrong for them to act on them? Is it wrong to express
your view?
It's like an old man complaining that the local
> supermarket doesn't carry a wide enough variety of fish. The butcher
> tells him that there is a big fish market right across the street, but
> the old man says that he refuses to go and insists on shopping for
> fish in the supermarket.
Actually, I listen to a wide array of musical genres. And if I don't like
something, I won't listen to it.
> >> Accepting it wholeheartedly, the good, the bad, the ugly and the grimy
> >> IS part of seeing the beauty and diversity in it all.
> >
> >I understand where you're coming from with this. But then is it fair to
say
> >that we have to accept the injustices of the world just because we want
to
> >live? I embrace all of hip-hop but it does not mean I should not want to
> >change the things that bring out the bad in people.
> >
> I don't equate music to real life injustices. Music is entertainment.
> I also don't believe that music brings out the bad in sane and
> rational people.
See, I think this is where we are not seeing eye to eye. I'm speaking on the
culture whereas you are speaking on just the music. I don't believe that
just music brings out the bad in people, it's many different things that one
encounters in life.
> >> >You really are closed minded, aren't you.
> >>
> >> Far from it.
> >
> >I apologize for the statement. It was low and does not pertain to this
> >discussion.
> >
> It's also not true.....but apology accepted.
>
> >And I don't believe that my length of stay here is indicative of my
> >dedication to the culture.
>
> True..........but it probably is a better indication of it than using
> the banner in my sig to assess my personality. It goes to show just
> how absurd the criterias we are using to judge each other....and our
> respective love for the music....really are.
Absurd is correct.
> > Excuse me if I have a life outside of RMHH.
> >
>
> I'm sure most of the people who post here on a regular basis do as
> well. Myself included. It's just something that I've noticed. The
> "fuck hip-hoppers" are also the ones who float in and out. They
> disappear for a while, then come back w/ a critique of what's wrong w/
> the music and the culture. Then, they are gone again. The regulars
> here, annoying as they are, do at least seem to have a genuine love
> for the music.
Again, length of stay here is not reflective of someone dedication to the
culture. One can leave and actually particpate in it actively. And
participation takes just as much if not more time than it takes to post on
this NG.I know people who have given their all and never heard of this board
or would ever care to participate in it. And if I can use former posters,
O-Dub left and would post on occasion, but since his departure, he has
really come into his own. Angiiieeeeeee left and blew up Okayplayer.com. Is
their loyalty in question? I think not. And if you read some of the articles
former journalists have written in magazines, you'll see that they too have
their issues, but it does not lessen their love for the culture.
My love for the culture runs deep.
how deep? Deep. Deeper than Atlantis
Deeper than the seafloor traveled by the mantis.
You copycats will never know.
For you the funk will never flow.. and that's another blow.
Tre' Boogs
Fatboy Roberts
> "Fatboy Roberts" <fatboy_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<A1AL9.375245$%m4.1...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net>...
>
> > Vote begging campaigning chumpy sonofabitch...
> >
> > You're out there recruiting old heads who had managed to actually
GRADUATE
> > TO HAVING A LIFE, getting away from this nitpicking knitting circle--
and
> > for what? FOR AN ONLINE POPULARITY CONTEST, SUCKER.
>
> whoa whoa whoa...chill on that shit...
>
> admittedly i did tell sauce to come back and throw me a vote. but
> look, he's stayed around for a while, and isn't that for the
> betterment of rmhh?
Was
Just
Fucking
With
You.
Here's a winky face to further denote the "no harm, no foul" attitude I
intended my half-ass snarky diatribe to be read in.
it's all gravy. or applesauce. whatever.
Fatboy
Fatboy Roberts
;)
See? Winky face.
Fatboy
MemePlex
news:3dff9563...@News.CIS.DFN.DE:
> If hip-hop is adding to mysogyny as you claim, why is this happening?
I don't agree with the idea of hip-hop *adding to misogyny* because
that's the same basic 'thought-crime' argument that video games make
people kill, that pornography turns people into pedophiles, and that
because a woman wears certain clothing that she's asking to be raped.
I would agree that some artists' lyrics (and videos, which to me is
another kettle of fish entirely) express misogynistic attitudes, but I
don't know if that's because it's what the artists really believe in and
practice or if that's what they perform because that's what sells. Which
is the dog and which is the tail?
While it's true that specific genres of music are a part of each culture
and and they often reflect some môres and values of each culture, many
Latino/Hispanic cultures (of which salsa is a musical genre) are
generally paternalistic and patriarchial and many African/African-
American cultures (of which hip hop is a musical genre) are generally
maternalistic and matriarchial. [Cf. any basic sociology or anthropology
textbook.]
Do those who see hip-hop as ading to misogyny (and from reading the
thread, it appears that the alleged misonyny is coming from male artists)
also see hip hop as adding to misandry when female artists are examined
or is it a one-way street?
> I don't equate music to real life injustices.
Hmm. Ever heard Billie Holliday's "Strange Fruit"? How/why was it that
rap started again?? Spirituals, the blues, and Woody Guthrie's protest
music are each about real life injustices. Alan Lomax dedicated his
life's work to preserving, cataloging, and recording protest/folk/ethnic
roots music to ensure cultural equity. 'Grassroots' ethos and a healthy
creative disrespect for the status quo...
Isn't Public Enemy's song, "By the Time I Get to Arizona" from Apocalypse
'91, about violently overthrowing the government because Arizona doesn't
recognize Martin Luther King Day? Appropros Trent Lott's claims that he
wasn't aware that MLK was an important American and that he didn't know
MLK was a big deal until about 13-14 days ago (what a putz that one is),
it seems to me anyway, that PE's musical message about social injustice
was just as relevant then as it is now. Ommv.
> Music is entertainment.
For you, but not for everyone. For some it's entertainment, poetry,
protest, politics, sheer joyful release, oral history and storytelling,
spirituals and gospels, and so on. :)
> I also don't believe that music brings out
> the bad in sane and rational people.
Or conversely, the bad in insane and irrational people.
--
MemePlex, also not into stereotypes
I see by your sig that you like poetry. Do you like the Harlem
Renaissance?
Oliver Wendell Homeboy
news:Xns92E67AB6...@207.14.113.17:
> mochas...@notsohotmail.com (mochaspresso) wrote in
> news:3dfdb158...@News.CIS.DFN.DE:
>
>> On 16 Dec 2002 01:24:34 GMT, memeplex <memep...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>i'm just getting into hiphop.
>>
>> Welcome and enjoy.
>
> thanks!
>
>> Feel free to speak your mind.......and be able to take it when folks
>> speak their's.
>
> no problem with any of that for me.
>
>>>**i like the honorable gortician's banner**
>>
>> Thank you. He gave it to me. Such a nice man, even though he's a
>> troll and lives under a bridge. ;o)
>
> that sounds like a dangerous business with horrible living conditions!
>
Ah, but the hours are wonderful.
--
Underground Hip-Hop Links
http://www.mp3.com/highc
You're prefering metal, maybe?
http://www.mp3.com/gortician
DEVIANT ART
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/782924
PISSING IN THE MAINSTREAM
http://www.mindspring.com/~lordvic/vinland/catalog.htm
T. Tauri
>
> In article <atltv3$eo03$1...@ID-167532.news.dfncis.de>,
> "---Pete---" <hesbac...@fuckyou.com> wrote:
>
> > > 'When I was twelve I went to hell for snuffin' Jesus - I'm
> > > waving automatic guns at nuns'- Live At the BBQ
> >
> > Where in barbecue does Nas say Waving automatic guns at nuns?
> > I think you're confusing it with Back To The Grill.
> >
> > ---Pete---
>
> you are correct. I'm getting my lines mixed up.
Probably thinking of the Big L joint.
Peece,
T. Tauri
mochaspresso
<funkye...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>Supporting, participating, encouraging. That's what I've been doing for many
>years...including discussing issues that do affect people in hip-hop. And
>again, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to raise the bar a
>little. I think that's the only way a culture and the people can evolve and
>grow. If you aren't growing, then what are you doing? Agreed that there are
>various forms of hip-hop music and each serves a purpose. And there are
>people on all sides of the spectrum that have different ideals and
>perspectives. Is it wrong for them to act on them? Is it wrong to express
>your view?
>
No, it is not wrong to express a view. But one should also extend
that same freedom that they desire for themselves to hip-hop.
Regardless of whether you agree w/ them or like their music, that's
exactly what the artists are doing.......expressing views. Each and
every one of them.
>
>Again, length of stay here is not reflective of someone dedication to the
>culture. One can leave and actually particpate in it actively. And
>participation takes just as much if not more time than it takes to post on
>this NG.I know people who have given their all and never heard of this board
>or would ever care to participate in it. And if I can use former posters,
>O-Dub left and would post on occasion, but since his departure, he has
>really come into his own. Angiiieeeeeee left and blew up Okayplayer.com. Is
>their loyalty in question? I think not. And if you read some of the articles
>former journalists have written in magazines, you'll see that they too have
>their issues, but it does not lessen their love for the culture.
>
Are they equally as arrogant about their love for the music and the
culture?
You've apologized for a few comments and it's been accepted. I just
wanted to clear the air and let you know that this was my pirmary
issue w/ you and your response to me. I don't care about your level
of commitment to hip-hop or whether you post here or not. My issue
was that you posted here after being gone for a while w/ a "holier
than thou" attitude. I don't mind exchanging views, but I don't need
anyone to "preach" to me in a condescending manner about "hip-hop
culture" and their personal impressions of what it should entail. I
personally don't have a problem w/ the less than desirable sides of
hip-hop because I know that there is so much more to the music than
that one aspect. I think most true and faithful fans do as well. To
be honest, I don't think you have as much issue w/ it as you claim
because in one of your posts, you called AZ's "Aziatic" a solid album.
I guess "Take It Off" and "Wanna Be" are the exceptions to whatever
hip-hop rules you've set for yourself.
I listen to Hot97. I listen to CM Fam-a-lam. I like Jay-Z. I like
J-Zone, I like J-Live. I just like hip-hop music and other than the
occasional annoying fan and the occasional uninformed critic, I think
it's doing just fine.
mochaspresso
wrote:
>mochas...@notsohotmail.com (mochaspresso) wrote in
>news:3dff9563...@News.CIS.DFN.DE:
>
>> If hip-hop is adding to mysogyny as you claim, why is this happening?
>
>I don't agree with the idea of hip-hop *adding to misogyny* because
>that's the same basic 'thought-crime' argument that video games make
>people kill, that pornography turns people into pedophiles, and that
>because a woman wears certain clothing that she's asking to be raped.
>
>I would agree that some artists' lyrics (and videos, which to me is
>another kettle of fish entirely) express misogynistic attitudes, but I
>don't know if that's because it's what the artists really believe in and
>practice or if that's what they perform because that's what sells. Which
>is the dog and which is the tail?
>
I agree. I think that plays a part in it. Many of the popular
rappers are "studio misogynists". They talk good game......but many
are also married w/ children.
>> I don't equate music to real life injustices.
>
>Hmm. Ever heard Billie Holliday's "Strange Fruit"? How/why was it that
>rap started again?? Spirituals, the blues, and Woody Guthrie's protest
>music are each about real life injustices. Alan Lomax dedicated his
>life's work to preserving, cataloging, and recording protest/folk/ethnic
>roots music to ensure cultural equity. 'Grassroots' ethos and a healthy
>creative disrespect for the status quo...
>
>Isn't Public Enemy's song, "By the Time I Get to Arizona" from Apocalypse
>'91, about violently overthrowing the government because Arizona doesn't
>recognize Martin Luther King Day? Appropros Trent Lott's claims that he
>wasn't aware that MLK was an important American and that he didn't know
>MLK was a big deal until about 13-14 days ago (what a putz that one is),
>it seems to me anyway, that PE's musical message about social injustice
>was just as relevant then as it is now. Ommv.
>
I didn't mean that music doesn't or shouldn't reflect real life
injustices. I just don't require that all of the music that I listen
to do just that. I also don't use hip-hop as my primary source of
information regarding these types of issues and I don't recommend that
anyone else should either. Books, newspapers, magazines, the library,
the internet etc...s/b the primary source of filling that void.
>> Music is entertainment.
>
>For you, but not for everyone. For some it's entertainment, poetry,
>protest, politics, sheer joyful release, oral history and storytelling,
>spirituals and gospels, and so on. :)
>
True. Although, for me, all of those thing are incorporated into the
overall entertainment value. What I'm really trying to say is that w/
some people, I believe that they think they are taking a political
stance by buying a PE album and paying it lip service. For me taking
a political stance means actually showing up at the polls and voting
on election day.
>I see by your sig that you like poetry. Do you like the Harlem
>Renaissance?
I certainly do!! Although, methinks that I'm about to open a
pandora's box w/ the next comment.....I'm not a huge fan of Langston
Hughes'. Zora Neale Hurston "speaks to me" more than he does.
TreBoogie
I just spent an hour replying to this shit and then lost it. Oh well.
I'm taking my arrogant holier than thou attitude on a plane to preach
to my folks back home.
Peace and blessings
Tre' Boogie.