>> > > > Our Milky Way's central black hole (Cygnus X-1)
>> > > Nit-pik: Sagittarius A* is the Milky Way's central, supermassive black
>> > > hole (Cygnus X-1 was the first black hole to be empirically
>> > > detected). Also it (probably) does have an accretion disk.
>Turns out per NASA I was incorrect about the existence of an accretion
>disk around the Milky Way's central, supermassive black hole. Per
>NASA, Sagittarius A* doesn't have one:
>> > > > was detected by the
>> > > > orbital velocities of close-by stars, observed with an infrared
>> > > > telescope since we can't visibly see our center. The orbits of these
>> > > > stars suggested a huge mass, yet we saw nothing where that mass should
>> > > > be.
>> > > > Since then, we have used gravitational lensing to assume the existence
>> > > > of black holes without accretion disks.
>> > > > Cygnus X-1 does feed occasionally and we see the radiation from those
>> > > > feedings, but mostly it fasts.
>> > > > I don't think an accretion disk is typical. There's only so much
>> > > > matter surrounding a black hole, and millions/billions of years of
>> > > > feeding will exhaust that supply.
>> > > I'm not sure we know yet which is more typical. While there agreed
>> > > that is only so much matter surrounding a black hole, like everything
>> > > else in the galaxy (relative to and thus in this context with the
>> > > exception of Sagittarius A*) black holes are always on the move and
>> > > they will thus routinely be capturing new stars and interstellar dust
>> > > to "feed" on. That said there will be plenty of times when they are
>> > > "dormant" too, and since dormant black holes are relatively much
>> > > harder to detect, at least to my knowledge (it's not something I've
>> > > looking into) we know yet which is more common.
>> > Thinking about this a bit more, since space is mostly empty space it
>> > seems likely that most back holes are dormant. Don't quote me on that
>> > though. :-0
>> Can I quote you on that :)
>> I would guess that most Supermassive BHs have accretion disks,
>> especially the galactic center ones, and most stellar-mass BHs don't.
>As it turns out per that same NASA link a large majority of
>supermassive black holes at galactic centers (do other supermassive
>black holes exist in relatively substantive numbers?) are actually
>dormant:
>"Nearly every massive galaxy seems to have a supermassive black hole,
>but only a few percent appear to be active."
>NASA adds:
>"All black holes were likely once active, and why some remain active
>and others are dormant in the modern, local universe is a mystery."
>That too is surprising to me. devilphish your speculation that after
>active black holes ate their neighbors they would go dormant seemed to
>be a straightforward explanation to me (save for unless they found
>more "food" while cruising the galaxy), but it's apparently not that
>simple.
> > I got this album when it came out and thought had some great moments.
> > Until the Rain Comes is a masterpiece, especially when it kicks into
> > high gear.
I forgot to add that while I agree "Until the Rain Comes" is a
masterpiece I was disappointed when that studio recording of it first
came out - I was already quite familiar with the song from their live
performances and IMO that version is quite weak in comparison. It's
still great on its own terms though. (BTW that's a Peter Apfelbaum
composition; the Hieroglyphics played it regularly with and without
Cherry sitting in.)
On a related note I used to have cassette soundboards of a couple of
Hieroglyphics shows - one of a complete, 2-set show (they usually
played 2 full sets) without Cherry, and another of a partial show with
Cherry. Both performances were great (including great versions of
"Until the Rain Comes") but unfortunately I was not the type of tape
collector who took pristine care of my tapes - I wore those tapes into
the ground long ago.
A couple more Cherry recs:
For those who like more straight-up jazz Cherry's "Art Deco" (1989) is
great, and features his longtime musical collaborators (going back to
their early Ornette Coleman Quartet days, but this outing is far more
"in the tradition") Charlie Haden and Billy Higgins. This is from the
same Multikulti/Hieroglyphics era, but you wouldn't know it based on
the music.
"El Corazon", Cherry's 1982 minimalist recording with longtime
collaborator Ed Blackwell (another Ornette Coleman alum from the early
days) is also great. Here's the final cut, a solo piece by Cherry
called "Voice of the Silence" that is gorgeous in its sparseness.
Cherry, like Jerry, understood the space between the notes.
> > I also loved Don's work with Sun Ra, especially Of Invisible Them from
> > Purple Night. Amazing stuff!
> I didn't know about that - I'll check it out.
> > I used to see Colin with Oregon fairly regularly. I found them as
> > inspiring as primal Dead.
> I can easily believe that. I wish I could have seen them (or for that
> matter even just Walcott) live.
> > They were all about the fearless improvisation.
> > After one show at Sanders Theater in Harvard Square, Colin hung out with
> > me and a friend for about 40 minutes when he admitted that he had to
> > pack up as it was his turn to be behind the wheel on the drive to
> > Baltimore that night! Really generous guy. It cut pretty deep when he
> > passed.
> I kinda figured that was the case based on the music he made (that's
> of course not always a good indicator; glad to hear it was here
> though).
> > I saw Oregon again with Trilok, and while Trilok is a stunning
> > musician, the vibe just wasn't there. Those guys had created a language
> > all their own and while they had virtuosity in spades (Colin had the
> > only union card for sitar in NYC!), it was all about the group. Sharing
> > the stage with Paul McCandless has been a highlight of my musical life.
> No doubt - McCandless can rip it up. I saw him sit in at a Leftover
> Salmon show one some years back - one jam in particular (during "When
> the Levee Breaks") left a smoking crater of my mind.
> > I only saw the Hieroglyphics once, at The Great American Music Hall. It
> > was apparently a farewell concert as Peter was moving to NYC.
> The Hieroglyphics were a reliably excellent show, though the 2 or so
> years Cherry sat in with them much of the time were IMO even better -
> great synergy.
> > They were
> > in rare form, Stan Franks and Jai Uttal were both on guitar.
> Speaking of, Cherry also guests for multiple tracks on Jai Uttal's CD
> - "Footprints" - great stuff if you like Indian fusion music.
> >The opening
> > back was also pretty amazing. Some black radical jazz poetry business.
> > I'd never seen a drummer play a glitter wand solo before!
> > > I got this album when it came out and thought had some great moments.
> > > Until the Rain Comes is a masterpiece, especially when it kicks into
> > > high gear.
> I forgot to add that while I agree "Until the Rain Comes" is a
> masterpiece I was disappointed when that studio recording of it first
> came out - I was already quite familiar with the song from their live
> performances and IMO that version is quite weak in comparison. It's
> still great on its own terms though. (BTW that's a Peter Apfelbaum
> composition; the Hieroglyphics played it regularly with and without
> Cherry sitting in.)
I wish I had had the chance to see them more. I heard some great stories about the very early years. Stacey Starkweather went to high school with Apfelbaum, which is apparently when the whole thing started.
> On a related note I used to have cassette soundboards of a couple of
> Hieroglyphics shows - one of a complete, 2-set show (they usually
> played 2 full sets) without Cherry, and another of a partial show with
> Cherry. Both performances were great (including great versions of
> "Until the Rain Comes") but unfortunately I was not the type of tape
> collector who took pristine care of my tapes - I wore those tapes into
> the ground long ago.
I hope there are more copies out there, I'd love to hear them!
> > > > I got this album when it came out and thought had some great moments.
> > > > Until the Rain Comes is a masterpiece, especially when it kicks into
> > > > high gear.
> > I forgot to add that while I agree "Until the Rain Comes" is a
> > masterpiece I was disappointed when that studio recording of it first
> > came out - I was already quite familiar with the song from their live
> > performances and IMO that version is quite weak in comparison. It's
> > still great on its own terms though. (BTW that's a Peter Apfelbaum
> > composition; the Hieroglyphics played it regularly with and without
> > Cherry sitting in.)
> I wish I had had the chance to see them more. I heard some great stories
> about the very early years. Stacey Starkweather went to high school with
> Apfelbaum, which is apparently when the whole thing started.
Yeah Peter Apfelbaum founded the Hieroglyphics Ensemble in the 70's
while still a student at Berkeley High School. Several of the founding
members from Berkeley High have stayed with the band over the years,
including after its re-constitution & current incarnation in New York
as the "New York Hieroglyphics". I didn't know them back in their
founding years; I became aware of and started following them in the
late-80's.
Berkeley High's jazz program has an amazing track record of turning
out professional jazz musicians. In addition to Peter Apfelbaum and
other Hieroglyphics including Will Bernard, Peck Allmond, Jessica
Jones & Tony Jones, alumni include Joshua Redman (son of longtime Don
Cherry collaborator Dewey Redman), David Murray, Charlie Hunter, Dave
Ellis and Benny Green. I'm not recalling others right now - the list
is ridiculous for a single public high school.
ODC: An obscure classically-trained musician named Phil Lesh went to
Berkeley High too. :-)
I haven't kept up with the New York Hieroglyphics, whose line-up has
maybe half of the late-80's/early 90's incarnation that I am most
familiar with. I've seen the New York Hieroglyphics a couple of times
and have their studio release - while the music is interesting it
hasn't been as compelling to me as that of their earlier incarnation.
Then again maybe I just haven't had enough exposure to the New York
incarnation - Apfelbaum's compositions have always pushed the
envelope.
> > On a related note I used to have cassette soundboards of a couple of
> > Hieroglyphics shows - one of a complete, 2-set show (they usually
> > played 2 full sets) without Cherry, and another of a partial show with
> > Cherry. Both performances were great (including great versions of
> > "Until the Rain Comes") but unfortunately I was not the type of tape
> > collector who took pristine care of my tapes - I wore those tapes into
> > the ground long ago.
> I hope there are more copies out there, I'd love to hear them!
My tape with Don Cherry sitting in went missing a long time ago, but
as I taped it from the radio (KPFA, IIRC) it's gotta be out there
somewhere. The tapes of the complete (11/89, IIRC) show were 2nd-gen
soundboards - the masters have to be out their somewhere too. Here's
to hoping they surface someday.
> > > > > Our Milky Way's central black hole (Cygnus X-1)
> > > > Nit-pik: Sagittarius A* is the Milky Way's central, supermassive black
> > > > hole (Cygnus X-1 was the first black hole to be empirically
> > > > detected). Also it (probably) does have an accretion disk.
> Turns out per NASA I was incorrect about the existence of an accretion
> disk around the Milky Way's central, supermassive black hole. Per
> NASA, Sagittarius A* doesn't have one:
> > > > > was detected by the
> > > > > orbital velocities of close-by stars, observed with an infrared
> > > > > telescope since we can't visibly see our center. The orbits of these
> > > > > stars suggested a huge mass, yet we saw nothing where that mass should
> > > > > be.
> > > > > Since then, we have used gravitational lensing to assume the existence
> > > > > of black holes without accretion disks.
> > > > > Cygnus X-1 does feed occasionally and we see the radiation from those
> > > > > feedings, but mostly it fasts.
> > > > > I don't think an accretion disk is typical. There's only so much
> > > > > matter surrounding a black hole, and millions/billions of years of
> > > > > feeding will exhaust that supply.
> > > > I'm not sure we know yet which is more typical. While there agreed
> > > > that is only so much matter surrounding a black hole, like everything
> > > > else in the galaxy (relative to and thus in this context with the
> > > > exception of Sagittarius A*) black holes are always on the move and
> > > > they will thus routinely be capturing new stars and interstellar dust
> > > > to "feed" on. That said there will be plenty of times when they are
> > > > "dormant" too, and since dormant black holes are relatively much
> > > > harder to detect, at least to my knowledge (it's not something I've
> > > > looking into) we know yet which is more common.
> > > Thinking about this a bit more, since space is mostly empty space it
> > > seems likely that most back holes are dormant. Don't quote me on that
> > > though. :-0
> > Can I quote you on that :)
> > I would guess that most Supermassive BHs have accretion disks,
> > especially the galactic center ones, and most stellar-mass BHs don't.
> As it turns out per that same NASA link a large majority of
> supermassive black holes at galactic centers (do other supermassive
> black holes exist in relatively substantive numbers?) are actually
> dormant:
> "Nearly every massive galaxy seems to have a supermassive black hole,
> but only a few percent appear to be active."
> NASA adds:
> "All black holes were likely once active, and why some remain active
> and others are dormant in the modern, local universe is a mystery."
> That too is surprising to me. devilphish your speculation that after
> active black holes ate their neighbors they would go dormant seemed to
> be a straightforward explanation to me (save for unless they found
> more "food" while cruising the galaxy), but it's apparently not that
> simple.
On Apr 23, 8:56 am, Ray <rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> A couple more Cherry recs: ...
> "El Corazon", Cherry's 1982 minimalist recording with longtime
> collaborator Ed Blackwell (another Ornette Coleman alum from the early
> days) is also great. Here's the final cut, a solo piece by Cherry
> called "Voice of the Silence" that is gorgeous in its sparseness.
> Cherry, like Jerry, understood the space between the notes.
I gave "El Corazon" a spin (or rather, a stream) last night - first
time I'd heard the whole recording in one sitting in a while. I was
struck by how similar in general tone and feel it is to a Codona
release -- Ed and anyone else who likes Codana you'd like "El Corazon"
too.
> On Apr 23, 8:56 am, Ray<rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> A couple more Cherry recs: ...
>> "El Corazon", Cherry's 1982 minimalist recording with longtime
>> collaborator Ed Blackwell (another Ornette Coleman alum from the early
>> days) is also great. Here's the final cut, a solo piece by Cherry
>> called "Voice of the Silence" that is gorgeous in its sparseness.
>> Cherry, like Jerry, understood the space between the notes.
> I gave "El Corazon" a spin (or rather, a stream) last night - first
> time I'd heard the whole recording in one sitting in a while. I was
> struck by how similar in general tone and feel it is to a Codona
> release -- Ed and anyone else who likes Codana you'd like "El Corazon"
> too.
Duly (and deliciously) noted. That "Voices of the Silence" track is stunningly delicate.
IIRC, this is the second recommendation of the "El Corazon" album I have received, the first (I think) coming from the esteemed BZ, before the days of YouTube.
> > > > > > Our Milky Way's central black hole (Cygnus X-1)
> > > > > Nit-pik: Sagittarius A* is the Milky Way's central, supermassive black
> > > > > hole (Cygnus X-1 was the first black hole to be empirically
> > > > > detected). Also it (probably) does have an accretion disk.
> > Turns out per NASA I was incorrect about the existence of an accretion
> > disk around the Milky Way's central, supermassive black hole. Per
> > NASA, Sagittarius A* doesn't have one:
> > > > > > was detected by the
> > > > > > orbital velocities of close-by stars, observed with an infrared
> > > > > > telescope since we can't visibly see our center. The orbits of these
> > > > > > stars suggested a huge mass, yet we saw nothing where that mass should
> > > > > > be.
> > > > > > Since then, we have used gravitational lensing to assume the existence
> > > > > > of black holes without accretion disks.
> > > > > > Cygnus X-1 does feed occasionally and we see the radiation from those
> > > > > > feedings, but mostly it fasts.
> > > > > > I don't think an accretion disk is typical. There's only so much
> > > > > > matter surrounding a black hole, and millions/billions of years of
> > > > > > feeding will exhaust that supply.
> > > > > I'm not sure we know yet which is more typical. While there agreed
> > > > > that is only so much matter surrounding a black hole, like everything
> > > > > else in the galaxy (relative to and thus in this context with the
> > > > > exception of Sagittarius A*) black holes are always on the move and
> > > > > they will thus routinely be capturing new stars and interstellar dust
> > > > > to "feed" on. That said there will be plenty of times when they are
> > > > > "dormant" too, and since dormant black holes are relatively much
> > > > > harder to detect, at least to my knowledge (it's not something I've
> > > > > looking into) we know yet which is more common.
> > > > Thinking about this a bit more, since space is mostly empty space it
> > > > seems likely that most back holes are dormant. Don't quote me on that
> > > > though. :-0
> > > Can I quote you on that :)
> > > I would guess that most Supermassive BHs have accretion disks,
> > > especially the galactic center ones, and most stellar-mass BHs don't.
> > As it turns out per that same NASA link a large majority of
> > supermassive black holes at galactic centers (do other supermassive
> > black holes exist in relatively substantive numbers?) are actually
> > dormant:
> > "Nearly every massive galaxy seems to have a supermassive black hole,
> > but only a few percent appear to be active."
> > NASA adds:
> > "All black holes were likely once active, and why some remain active
> > and others are dormant in the modern, local universe is a mystery."
> > That too is surprising to me. devilphish your speculation that after
> > active black holes ate their neighbors they would go dormant seemed to
> > be a straightforward explanation to me (save for unless they found
> > more "food" while cruising the galaxy), but it's apparently not that
> > simple.
> > On Apr 23, 8:56 am, Ray<rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> A couple more Cherry recs: ...
> >> "El Corazon", Cherry's 1982 minimalist recording with longtime
> >> collaborator Ed Blackwell (another Ornette Coleman alum from the early
> >> days) is also great. Here's the final cut, a solo piece by Cherry
> >> called "Voice of the Silence" that is gorgeous in its sparseness.
> >> Cherry, like Jerry, understood the space between the notes.
> > I gave "El Corazon" a spin (or rather, a stream) last night - first
> > time I'd heard the whole recording in one sitting in a while. I was
> > struck by how similar in general tone and feel it is to a Codona
> > release -- Ed and anyone else who likes Codana you'd like "El Corazon"
> > too.
> Duly (and deliciously) noted. That "Voices of the Silence" track is
> stunningly delicate.
The video "paganmaestro" made to go with it is gorgeous too - a just
exactly perfect visual accompaniment.
Checking out paganmaestro's other submissions s/he posted nice tribute
to Levon Helms too:
> IIRC, this is the second recommendation of the "El Corazon" album I have
> received, the first (I think) coming from the esteemed BZ, before the
> days of YouTube.
marcman <marcmanstud...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 23, 1:51 am, Ray <rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Apr 20, 10:43 am, devilphish <robsfootballpi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On Apr 19, 6:21 pm, Ray <rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Apr 19, 4:55 pm, Ray <rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Apr 19, 2:42 pm, devilphish <robsfootballpi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Our Milky Way's central black hole (Cygnus X-1)
>>>>> Nit-pik: Sagittarius A* is the Milky Way's central, supermassive black
>>>>> hole (Cygnus X-1 was the first black hole to be empirically
>>>>> detected). Also it (probably) does have an accretion disk.
>> Turns out per NASA I was incorrect about the existence of an accretion
>> disk around the Milky Way's central, supermassive black hole. Per
>> NASA, Sagittarius A* doesn't have one:
>>>>>> was detected by the
>>>>>> orbital velocities of close-by stars, observed with an infrared
>>>>>> telescope since we can't visibly see our center. The orbits of these
>>>>>> stars suggested a huge mass, yet we saw nothing where that mass should
>>>>>> be.
>>>>>> Since then, we have used gravitational lensing to assume the existence
>>>>>> of black holes without accretion disks.
>>>>>> Cygnus X-1 does feed occasionally and we see the radiation from those
>>>>>> feedings, but mostly it fasts.
>>>>>> I don't think an accretion disk is typical. There's only so much
>>>>>> matter surrounding a black hole, and millions/billions of years of
>>>>>> feeding will exhaust that supply.
>>>>> I'm not sure we know yet which is more typical. While there agreed
>>>>> that is only so much matter surrounding a black hole, like everything
>>>>> else in the galaxy (relative to and thus in this context with the
>>>>> exception of Sagittarius A*) black holes are always on the move and
>>>>> they will thus routinely be capturing new stars and interstellar dust
>>>>> to "feed" on. That said there will be plenty of times when they are
>>>>> "dormant" too, and since dormant black holes are relatively much
>>>>> harder to detect, at least to my knowledge (it's not something I've
>>>>> looking into) we know yet which is more common.
>>>> Thinking about this a bit more, since space is mostly empty space it
>>>> seems likely that most back holes are dormant. Don't quote me on that
>>>> though. :-0
>>> Can I quote you on that :)
>>> I would guess that most Supermassive BHs have accretion disks,
>>> especially the galactic center ones, and most stellar-mass BHs don't.
>> As it turns out per that same NASA link a large majority of
>> supermassive black holes at galactic centers (do other supermassive
>> black holes exist in relatively substantive numbers?) are actually
>> dormant:
>> "Nearly every massive galaxy seems to have a supermassive black hole,
>> but only a few percent appear to be active."
>> NASA adds:
>> "All black holes were likely once active, and why some remain active
>> and others are dormant in the modern, local universe is a mystery."
>> That too is surprising to me. devilphish your speculation that after
>> active black holes ate their neighbors they would go dormant seemed to
>> be a straightforward explanation to me (save for unless they found
>> more "food" while cruising the galaxy), but it's apparently not that
>> simple.
That's another reference to the same study that about dark matter that
you previously referenced in this thread. And as this article
concludes:
"important if true. But probably not true."
Also again dark matter should not be confused with dark energy - the
latter again being the standard explanation for why galaxies are
receding from us at an accelerating rate.
Ray <rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 4, 5:03 am, James Pablos <james.pab...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On May 4, 1:16 am, Ray <rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> That's another reference to the same study that about dark matter that
> you previously referenced in this thread. And as this article
> concludes:
> "important if true. But probably not true."
> Also again dark matter should not be confused with dark energy - the
> latter again being the standard explanation for why galaxies are
> receding from us at an accelerating rate.
> Ray <rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On May 4, 5:03 am, James Pablos <james.pab...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On May 4, 1:16 am, Ray <rayb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > That's another reference to the same study that about dark matter that
> > you previously referenced in this thread. And as this article
> > concludes:
> > "important if true. But probably not true."
> > Also again dark matter should not be confused with dark energy - the
> > latter again being the standard explanation for why galaxies are
> > receding from us at an accelerating rate.
